19/02/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

How best to tackle the growing Hello, I'm Aled Ap Dafydd and on

the Sunday Politics Wales, we'll be asking what can be done to tackle

homelessness as it reaches a five year high. And as Carwyn Jones

urges Plaid Cymru voters to back Labour in May's council elections,

I've been speaking Ed Miliband at Welsh Labour's Spring conference.

I'll be joined for the next 20 minutes by Labour's Ann Jones and

the Liberal Democrat Eluned Parrott. You have made it in double quick

time from the Swalec Stadium, way or the party conference is still

going on. I know you are going to say it has been a good weekend for

a Welsh Labour. Would you like to say why? We've had some good

speeches from Ed Miliband, Peter Hain and some good delegate

contributions as to where we are going to go. We have May elections.

It is -- has been a good weekend. There has been a lot of criticism

of the Westminster government. I'm sure you'll be looking to get your

own back to when it comes to your Liberal-Democrat conference in a

few weeks' time. Not necessarily. It is disappointing when you hear

Welsh Labour talking about a Westminster all the time. Let's

hear about Wales and its problems, and what ideas you've got to do

about it. I'm looking forward to a good debate to come.

Ed Miliband has been in Cardiff this weekend for the Labour party's

annual Welsh conference. He praised the Welsh Party for offering an

alternative to the policies of the coalition Government in Westminster.

After addressing delegates I spoke to Ed Miliband about the upcoming

local elections and I began by asking him how can Labour regain

the ground lost in 2008. I hope that we can win back seats in

councils at these elections in May but I think it is part of its

bigger argument about who is best to stand up for Wales. I think what

Carwyn Jones's for government is showing that on the major issues,

whether it be youth jobs, education, policing or other issues, Labour is

best to stand up for Wales and are -- that is the case we will be

taking to people. There are difficult choices for local

councils but I think it is the case that Labour councils applying

Labour values can do the best for the people of Wales. There is

nothing which is exercising the minds of the public more at the

moment than the economy. As Mervyn King would put it, are you not zig-

zagging on your economic policy? First it was too far, too fast. Now

it is, we are going to have to keep all these cuts. What is the Labour

message? It is clear. The government is going too far, to

Clarke -- fast. That is why we are seeing low or negative growth,

growing unemployment. But then can I promise now for three-and-a-half

years hence that we will restore particular cuts? I'm not going to

make a promise without knowing the books that I will inherit. Given

that the government is failing on its promise to eliminate the

deficit, am not going to make that promise. People will understand

that. People want to know that we have a different approach but they

want to know that we will be responsible in our promises. There

is nothing that undermines politics more found politicians breaking

promises. Wales has a high proportion of workers in the public

sector. You have said you favour a pay cut. Carwyn Jones is up -- as

opposed to a cave cap. -- -- pay cap. In government, we advocate a

1% rise in public pay. The government has gone with an average.

If we were in government, we would do is in a fair way. It is just

being honest. If it is a choice between losing jobs and having

greater restraint upon the public sector pay, we would choose the

restrained. I know that is difficult for people. Can you see

why people might be confused? You say the message is Labour standing

up for the people of Wales but you say that there should be a pay cap,

Carwyn Jones's saying the opposite. That is devolution. If you're

expecting a Labour leader in the UK who says that everybody must think

the same, we must save the same thing, that is not what devolution

is about. Devolution is about particular solutions in different

parts of the country and Carwyn Jones will take his own view about

the issues. That is something we would be dealing with if we were in

government. I think our economic policy is clear which is that the

government is taking the wrong approach, going too far and too

fast. Carwyn Jones is doing this every day, he is making it

difficult choices and what we've got to do it as an opposition is

show that we would be willing to make tough choices. We don't think

there is going to be billions of pounds extra to spend but there are

different priorities. Tax the bankers bonuses to put the young

back to work, for example. Can I ask you finally about the future of

devolution. Carwyn Jones says that he favours a constitutional

convention. Us that something that she would be -- is that something

that you will be asking the Prime Minister for? I think he is

definitely ride that ongoing discussions needed to be had about

devolution. I am with him on that. And also with him on thinking,

there is a world of difference between the devolution that we have

and the break-up of Britain that the nationalists, particularly in

Scotland, are proposing. I think we are united as one on VAT and that

is why I said in a speech, it is important that we all fight for the

United Kingdom. You sound like David Cameron, saying we are

stronger together. We have had no formal agreements on this! David

Cameron has his own way of putting it, his own argument. The same way

as you are putting it. If you are saying that he also things he

shouldn't break up the United Kingdom, that is correct. Led be

just say this. The reasons are different in the following sense. I

say the values of equality and justice which I believe in, which I

don't believe David Cameron believes in, are best achieved in

the UK. I think we can have a better chance of creating fairness

and justice together. That was Ed Miliband talking to me

yesterday. Are there any lessons that Ed Miliband can learn from the

way in which Welsh Labour are going about things? What we have done

with Welsh Labour since devolution is make those differences for the

Welsh people. We've tried to mitigate some of the four full caps

that came from the coalition government. What we are trying to

do is... We went out on the doorsteps last May and said we will

stand up for Wales. That is what we have done. I feel that we are

making progress now. He mentioned the cuts. One thing I was put into

Ed Miliband, it is a confusing message from Labour. It is too far,

too fast at the beginning. Now Ed Balls says no, we would have to

Kibble of these cuts. Ed Miliband talks about a pay cap in the public

sector. Carwyn Jones says no. What is the message? The Welsh Labour

will stand up for people of Wales. That message... It seems to be

changing from day-to-day. doesn't change. Ed Miliband cannot

make promises and that he sees the box. That would be irresponsible.

Ed Balls says today says a cut on VAT would help families and

certainly it would. There is a clear message going through that we

will be looking for those farmers, helping those families, and was

labour has had to take phased cuts -- and Labour has had to... The

Tories have failed to listen to frontline people. Labour will not

be doing that. We will be standing up for people. Labour's message

today is Avia 80 cut. -- A VAT cut. It is a message that will appeal in

these tough Financial Times to a lot of people. I think so. The

public a sophisticated and understand that there is no way of

paying for all of these tax cuts in one go. People in Wales have seen...

We have heard that Labour is trying to save a bit of Wales for the

terrible cuts. I think they should take some responsibility. There are

some sophisticated people who are saying we need growth in the

economy and one way of achieving that is to give the economy some

kind of stimulus. Absolutely. We are already starting to see

positive signs for the economy and we have heard last week from the

International Monetary Fund that actually, the biggest potential

risk to the UK's triple A rating is to go back to the road that Labour

was taking a stand. We had Ed Miliband talking just now about an

alternative road but as far as I can see, the road he is proposing

is the alternative road to the country of Greece. We need to be

responsible. The people of the UK understand that we are in a

difficult situation and we need to steady the ship. Ed Balls's critics

say it is excessive borrowing and debt under Labour which got us into

this and the first place. Here he is advocating more borrowing.

Hain was talking about the fact that it is not the binmen or the

doctors to have caused the debt, it was unregulated financial systems.

I do believe we should be taxing bankers bonuses and I do believe

that Ed Balls is right to say we should be putting an economic

stimulus in. On VAT, it would cost to reverse that rise about �12

billion. The coalition government is borrowing �158 billion more than

it said it would so �12 billion is a drop in the ocean compared to the

amount of borrowing going on at the moment. �12 billion is not a drop

in the ocean. It is nearly 10 % of the total and that is too much. Any

need to be trying to find ways of steadying the ship, raining things

in Surrey can start tackling that deficit in a responsible manner. --

so we can start. People here these promises from the Labour Party and

they understand they cannot trust the Labour Party with their many.

-- money. Homelessness in Wales is at a five year high, with warnings

benefit changes and economic conditions will leave thousands

more struggling to keep a roof over their head. Politicians argue over

whose to blame but the Welsh Government is seeking cross-party

support for a new approach to the problem. Adrian Brown has been

hearing how one man's life spiralled out of control when he

was forced from his home and how he turned his life around.

Adam, at the Big Issue magazine, after a decade of homelessness, a

young offenders' institutes or jail. He grew up in Penarth with a loving

family and good school -- school grades. As a teenager, he began

committing petty theft and minor criminal damage. He was arrested

and a bail condition stopped him living in his town, keeping away --

keeping him away from his friends but also his family. His new home

was a Cardiff hostel. It was there that I was exposed to a world that

I had never come across before. Penarth has got a nice area. I had

lived a sheltered life while I was there forceable the sudden, I was

in a hostel in Cardiff and mostly the people in the hostel were a lot

older, they were 20 up words. There was a lot of heroin and crack

cocaine use in these places. Heroin use and addiction followed. Adam

tried repeatedly to get clean, sometimes leaving hostels to get

away from drugs and sleeping on the steps of a public building. There

are people who will come and give you soup and sandwiches in the

evening say you want to be somewhere where they can find you.

Security guards did not take too kindly to be sleeping on the steps.

I understand that they don't want people sleeping rough on the steps

in the mornings but it was not great. After 10 years, Adam got his

life together. Support workers... The Welsh housing Minister believes

more can be done to help people like Adam. To there will always be

those people who hit a crisis situation and we need the best

support for them that we can possibly supply. But I think many,

many instances of homelessness could be averted if we changed the

system to intervene earlier. We are clear about where duties lie in

terms of preventing homelessness. He says he is reviewing policy from

top to bottom, as work continues on the first Welsh housing bill.

responsibility Show upon ourselves as the government, upon the whole

assembly in terms of the consensus we can build around the importance

of this issue, that responsibility should weigh heavily upon me and my

colleagues in the assembly as off. Adam has he went on to study social

care at University, before getting a job as a big issue at trick --

outreach worker. If your family was wiped out in a car crash tomorrow,

how would you turn to it? If you turned to drink, I would not judge

it. Anybody who thinks it could not happen to their or somebody they

love is naive. The Welsh government announced a 10

year homelessness strategy in September. What can we expect from

that? Looking at that story, it sounds shockwaves through me. I

think we ought to be, as the minister said, looking carefully at

how we can intervene earlier, to prevent it. We're not going to

prevent every homelessness situation and will see more and

more homelessness with the Welfare Reform Bill going in -- going

through force of that strategy says the services needed to be readily

available. Is there a danger in the current economic climate that

services will not be accessible and readily available? I don't think so.

If you look at Cardiff, just before Christmas, I took part in a sleeper

out for a charity worker Comus in Cardiff. They are building and

opening a new hostel in Cardiff next year. There is investment

going into providing that immediate support that people who are

sleeping rough now need. There is that investment going in. We need

to think carefully about the broader picture. I met with a

number of homeless people in a hostel and it is clear to me from

talking to people and hearing their stories that homelessness doesn't

come alone, it comes with a wide range of other social problems.

they concerned about benefit changes? They are concerned about

building their lives. Their concern about how they're going to get

their children back, how they are going to beat addiction problems,

how they will be to mental health problems, how they are going to

start to build their life that they are proud of and how they are going

to start taking back their self- respect and dignity. Homelessness

does depend on a multi-agency approach, to get people back with a

roof over their heads. I joined up as the thinking and Wales? It I

would like to say it is joined up but there are pockets of areas and

people have spoken to who say there is not joined-up thinking. I think

we have to put a concerted effort in. I'm sure the minister in his

Housing Bill will be addressing this. We need a concerted effort.

These are people, not just statistics. They are real people

who need our help. I think they have to have money in their pockets

to be able to survive. Time now for a political recap

here's Adrian again with a look The chief executive and finance

director of the race relations body all Wells was dismissed. Possible

inquiries were launched into financial irregularities at the All

Wales ethnic minorities as issue. Chris Bryant attacked Rupert

Murdoch's decision to launch a new Sunday newspaper as a ludicrously

premature. Various inquiries are still ongoing.

Council tax increases across Wales should be at a record low in April.

There was local government association predicted an average

increase of around 2.1 %. Gay rights Davies, the Swansea West

MP, called for tighter laws to prevent cable theft. Earlier this

month, communication cables were stolen resulting in serious

disruption at the city's hospitals. The assembly's children and young

people Committee will examine whether children under the age of

11 should be provided with free Let's pick up on a couple of those

highlights. This idea of a Sunday Sun that paper... Is anything going

to be a tarnished title? How could be anything otherwise? Six days of

the Sun newspaper his sixties too many. The truth is that it goes to

show that he has learned absolutely nothing from his appearances before

the Commons select committees and the Leveson Inquiry. It is not good

enough. Council tax, record low increases. I thought councils were

struggling for many. Well, they are. My postbag shows that people are

struggling. There is a responsibility not to put to the

council tax of. Think we have to be able to justify spending and they

need to put their spending plans out there. People are struggling

and will struggle with a cuts we are seeing from the coalition

government. That is a fact and we cannot get away from it. Councils

have to act responsibly. For do you think there was a political

dimension to the council tax rates this year, bearing in mind the

council elections in May? There is bound to be a political damage in

some ways but no short-term political manoeuvring come make-up

for the fact that in at Rhondda Cynon Taf, it costs �200 more than

a cadre of which is Liberal Democrat controlled. Over a period

of years, people will want to see responsibility. Ending on a