26/02/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Coming up in Wales: As pied Cymru prepares to say farewell to its

current leader, we discuss what next for the party.

With the hustings over and voting under way, all three leadership

contenders will flesh out their ideas and future vision. Join me

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2024 seconds

Hello, I'm Aled ap Dafydd. After more than 10 years leading Plaid

Cymru, Dafydd Elis-Thomas says that his party should accept an

opportunity to be backing government. He warns that leading

the party can be a lonely existence. It is something one of these three

will have to contend with. Elin Jones, Dafydd Elis-Thomas and

Leanne Wood art competing to succeed Ieuan Wyn Jones. It has

been a phenomenally positive experience for Plaid Cymru, this

entire leadership election. We have had up to 1,500 people coming to

meetings, engaging and debating politics. Our membership is up by

23%. It is a shame we can't have a leadership election every year! It

has been a very positive experience for the party. It has been tiring

and quite hard work. We have been all over the country and I am quite

glad that they are over. I wonder to what extent this has been a

process of navel-gazing. Have you been able to reach out beyond the

Kohl party support? -- call party support. We had a very good evening.

It is upon YouTube. The party membership has increased. Has that

been one of the main positive outcomes of this? It has been one

of the positive outcomes. The fact that we have conducted ourselves as

potential candidates, potential leaders of Plaid Cymru, in a very

constructive debate with some policy differences, but on the hall,

a clear direction. All of us emphasising the importance of the

economy and strengthening the economy, and all of us wanting to

see a more successful Wales, and Plaid Cymru's part in contributing

to that. All three leadership hopefuls will be debating with one

another shortly. But what of the current incumbent, who will

officially step down on 15th March? Colleagues and opponents of the

Ieuan Wyn Jones have described him as a man of integrity and a good

listener. His political life in Cardiff Bay has seen many a twist

and turn, as he told me when I spent a day with him on Anglesey,

which she has represented at Westminster and the assembly, since

A damp morning on Anglesey greets a politician who has celebrated a

quarter of a century in Welsh public life. This Friday, it is

constituency visit so -- visits, which has become a part of his life.

On the weekends, you have to be on call all the time so it can be

tiring. The furthest point possible from Cardiff Bay! Yes, I am. The

travelling has East. I think people who criticise it, if they saw us on

the journey, they would see it was a good mix. If we get up there, we

can see it better. The first engagement of the day was surveying

a new environment project, and Ieuan Wyn Jones has been more used

to building bridges with his party. Plaid Cymru lost five seats in 2003

and within a week, there were accusations of a plot to oust him

as leader. He resigned as party president and leader of the

assembly group, only to regain the position of party leader within a

few months. But don't expect any talk of bearing grudges. Whenever a

party leader is in a vulnerable position, they will always have

people who want to try to take advantage of that. But that's

politics. I am not criticising people for doing that because

that's what politics is. Being a leader can be quite a lonely

position to be in. There is always somebody who thinks they can do the

job better than you, but that's life. I don't think that is unique

to Plaid Cymru or to the parties in Wales. You must know who these

people are. Do you bear a grudge? Had not at all. In life and in

politics, you cannot afford to do that, because if you have had a bad

election - if you have had a period of where there is tumult within the

party - you have to live with it and move on. In four short years,

the man at the brink of rejection by the party found the key to

success. 2007 saw Plaid as a party of government. The Ieuan Wyn Jones

was the first leader to take the party to those heights. This

significant advantage of going into coalition with Labour was that as

well as the progressive politics that we wanted on health, education

and so on, we could secure constitutional change. That would

not have been possible otherwise. There are lessons to be learned for

any party in the coalition. The party had been out of power for 80

years and had been nowhere near. I don't think anybody expected, even

in 2007, that the party would be in government. Most of the political

pundits said it would be a deal between Labour and Liberal

Democrats. When it turned out that Plaid was going to go into the

government, it was a big surprise to lots of people. So the party was

learning, really, and I think there are lessons to be learned. I don't

they go was the issue of constitutional change that was the

determining factor. It is the way you conduct yourself within

government. I think we spend enough time making sure that the federal

machinery was given good attention. Seats were lost in May. The

coalition came to an end and the lido disappeared for a holiday

during the official opening of the Assembly. The criticism that

followed has been a career low point. It did hurt, because I felt

that I had represented the party for 25 years and hadn't missed a

single event of importance. It was the first time that a opportunity

to have a break with my family had come up. There are opportunities

where frankly, you have to put your family first. They have been

through the mill, with me through the ups and downs of politics and

suddenly you find yourself with an opportunity to put them first, and

I don't apologise for that at all. In less than three weeks, Plaid

will have a new leader, but the outgoing one has a view on the

future direction of travel. there was an opportunity for Plaid

to go back into government, I think the party should accept that. I am

not suggesting that should happen immediately but the party has to be

looking to be in government. That should be its mission because I

believe that further constitutional change, all significant

constitutional change, can only happen if Plaid is part of the

government of Wales. Will it be back in government before the next

election? I can't predict whether that will happen or not. It could

be, yes, but it depends on the circumstances. Something else which

is food for thought is what does the future hold for a Ieuan Wyn

Jones. After March 15th, it is life on the backbenches, but any talk of

standing for office again is a matter for family discussion. One

senses, however, that after searching -- serving as an MP, he

might just call it a day in 2016. That was the outgoing leader of

Plaid Cymru talking to be on Anglesey. Now let's hear from those

who want to succeed him. Leanne Wood, if you were to give ye and

Wynne-Jones a score out of 10, what would you give him. -- you Ieuan

Wyn Jones. I would probably go for around the seven or eight mark. I

think we would not have had the resounding success in the

referendum that was brought last March if it had not been for

Ieuan's work, and the way that he insured that Plaid was in

government with Labour. That referendum formed a central part of

the One of Wales agreement. That has really ensured that devolution

has embedded in Wales now. Very few people are talking about abolishing

the assembly, apart from a few voices on the fringes and getting...

And if I was to get a seven, it would say that I could do better.

What could he have done better? would like to have seen a much

clearer unique selling-point put to people in the last election. I

think that had we been able to put something clearly different from

the other parties, then we might have seen at our results be

slightly better. Having said that, we thought that election two months

after the referendum. All of our effort and resources went into that

referendum. Developing a new narrative with in two months was

always going to be very difficult, which is another wheeze and why we

were pushing for an autumn referendum. -- reason. Ieuan is

retiring and I think we need to give him a pat on the back for

achieving that very important referendum result. Dafydd Elis-

Thomas. Seven out of 10 for taking us out of the darkness, where we

had been for 80 years. You would not do anything different a? A no,

because that was transformational. But politics will never be the same

again. Now people are realising what it is like to the outside of

government and be left outside. he deserves that score, what

happened last May? The campaign that we had last May it seemed to

have conveniently forgotten that we had been in government. I could not

believe it. He was the leader. Is it collective responsibility?

but the theme of the campaign was Labour bashing, which I think the

worst people can no longer tolerate. Politics is not about attacking

other parties. 80% of the message is going out from the party, still,

is negative - attacking other people. Elin Jones, a score out of

10. I will go for nine out of 10. I agree with the reason Dafydd Elis-

Thomas has given. The Ieuan Wyn Jones took this party for the first

time ever into national government, changed the party from the

perception that too many people had had of us as a fringe protest party,

into a party that stands for election, in order to seek

government and to deliver on that the content of its manifesto. That

is what we should be in every election that we stand, including

the local elections coming up in May, where we will seek to govern

locally right across Wales. We have heard two of the other contenders

criticised the message that was put out during a's election. A I think

I am right in saying that you were one of the ones responsible for

communicating that. Do you take responsibility? -- it made's

collection. I disagree with Dafydd Elis-Thomas's message. He only had

part of the message if he only heard Labour bashing. We had

substance, but the policy ideas put to the electorate one and number of

key areas of responsibility for the Welsh a government. Yes, we

undertook a degree of opposition to the other political parties,

including Labour at that point. If we look back out what happened in

the last election - and I agree to an extent with what Leanne said

earlier. A criticism of us in government could be that we did not

take enough care of a party at that point, and a lesson for the next

leader that takes Plaid Cymru into government is that a political

leader has to look after the party, the state of the party, as well as

a contribution to government. move on to substance and policy.

The main area of concern for many people is the economy. We have

unprecedented levels of unemployment, high levels of youth

unemployment. What would be your remedy? I have said that the

economy should become Plaid Cymru's top priority - but we should do

everything we can to pull together our friends outside the party to

produce a long-term economic plan, designed to turn around the

situation in the world economy. All effort has to go into creating jobs

and expanding the private sector - in particular the small-business

sector. If every small business in Wales took on one apprentice or new

worker, we could resolve the youth unemployment problem. I have put a

lot of ideas out there. I have five policy papers on my website. Some

ideas are about creating jobs, particularly for young people, but

all of our effort and best brains needs to go into producing this

long-term economic plan. I have heard you talk a lot about the

model of corporate Yves. And a bad model, the bosses are paid an

average about five times more than the lowest-paid worker. Is that

something you would like to be a working model? -- under it that

model. In terms of the pay scale, in particular. I have called for a

public sector minimum wage scheme, in order to ensure fairness. The

cuts are hitting the public sector now and we have a bigger public

sector in Wales, so the cuts are impacting in Wales more. Those cuts

are impacting on the people who are a listing comes on the whole. What

I have called for is a maximum scheme for the public sector. --

who will Arc on it that lowest incomes. If readers are introduced

at the lower ranks, they should equally apply at the higher ranks.

-- wages. We have 134,000 people unemployed in Wales, at a rate of

about 9% - which is higher than the UK average. How can you get those

people back into work? The key thing is to have serious levels of

commercial private sector investment, starting with those

sectors of the economy which are absolutely essential and growing -

even in the situation of this recession. Particularly energy. I

am hoping to see an announcement this week of a reactor type, which

has a very important issue for day and when James and for myself. --

you I am a winner Jones. -- Ieuan Wyn Jones. It will do carbonised

the grid. That will create a substantially new jobs. During the

last election, Plaid were advocating the bill for Wales plan

policy. Was that communicated well enough and would that be the

forefront of your economic renewal plan? It was possibly not used well

enough by Plaid Cymru and we did not seem to get that message across

to the individual voter. We have progressed with that now in the

assembly. Labour are taking on aspects of that but not doing that

with enough enthusiasm, and certainly without success. We need

to see a government hearing Wales looking to use the ability that it

does have an seek extra powers to build an infrastructure investment

fund, so that we can get public sector investment creating a

stronger economic impact in the wider economy. The fact that the

public sector is reducing as it is - and reducing in terms of its

building projects, in particular - is having a Cygnet killer -- a

significant knock-on effect. It is likely to do so for the next 10

years. We have had innovative ideas as a party and we want to see the

government that is in situ now in Wales taking on board some of those

ideas. They would have the impact on the economy that we think is

necessary to have. Dafydd Elis- Thomas said that it is important

that Wales uses its energy potential to create jobs. One of

the key debates is around nuclear. We know that Elin Jones and Leanne

Wood are against nuclear. Would you be saying the same thing if so many

jobs in your particular constituency depended on the

nuclear industry? The leader of Plaid Cymru has to consider the

whole of Wales and you cannot consider national issues from a

local perspective like that. I think that from that perspective, I

don't think it is in Wales's best interests to go ahead with a new

nuclear power station. Plaid Cymru members feel that way as well, and

that is why they have consistently voted that way at annual

conferences. That is not the case. As you know, at the last conference,

what has been repeated in the National Assembly was repeated - we

accept renewal of reactors in existing sites to maintain

employment and to continue D colonising the grid. --

uncolonising. They still has not been a solution to the problem of

nuclear waste but if there is a decision for a renewal in Ynys Mon,

I am a pragmatic politician and I would like to see authorities and

that Beria work to ensure that the young people and others in that

area can take advantage of the economic potential. -- area. That

is the reality of the situation we are in. It is not where I would

want us to be in but that is the reality on Ynys Mon and we need to

work with that. Can we discuss the future of nails as a -- Wales as an

Asian and a country? Has Plaid Cymru become a concert that nobody

in the party has quite been able to elaborate upon? There is a unity of

message from the three of us and from the members that we have

taught to over the past few weeks. -- talk to. Plaid Cymru wants to

see Wales as a successful independent company. -- country. We

need to be clearer about what we see as apart deep to be the route

map for Wales for that aspiration. -- as a party. Then the important

thing is to engage with the people of Wales and engage out of Wales,

with people on the how or Wales strengthens our legislative and

fiscal powers, to enable us at some point to become that successful

independent country. Everybody is talking about the independence

referendum in Scotland. I want to talk about the future of Wales.

That is what is really important for us here as a party, and we need

to clearly define what we mean by that, and the steps to independence

in Wales. But more importantly, we need to engage with the people of

Wales and win further support for the concept and reality of how life

could be better in an independent Wales. We have not yet seen fiscal

devolution in Wales. Are these the steps that need to be taken for

your party to be talking about independence? I don't think we

should be waiting for a UK commission yet again. I think we

have to put clearly on the agenda, in response to what has happened in

Scotland. We know the question in Scotland now and we know the date,

if the UK government does not interfere - and I would advise them

not to interfere. The people of Scotland have a right to self-

determination and that must be honoured. As a result of that

question in Scotland, there will be changes, whatever happens, in the

United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is being transformed and is

disappearing out of history in a very important way and we have to

square out -- square up to that. There are some statistics on a Web

site about the number of people in Wales who are in favour of

independence. It is 32% and according to that, 33% of Plaid

voters want to have that. That is a poll for ITV. Only a third of your

party wants to see independence if these figures are to be believed.

You have got a long way to go, having to, -- have you not, to tell

the people of Wales that you are going in the right direction?

not surprised by those figures because the case for Welsh

independence has not been put and we need to develop our unique

selling point, and that his independence. We need to build the

economic case. That is the thing that people will always say - we

can't afford independence. There is no reason why we cannot. Every

other nation can afford independence. As long as we

strengthen our economy, get more people into work, grow the private

sector, there is no reason why we cannot afford independence. That is

why we need to put all our effort into the economic plan. That

addresses people's plans from where they are. Elin Jones has said two

successful elections and then pop the question - what is your

timeline? I have not got a firm view on that. I think as soon as

possible for stop that could mean tomorrow or 20 years for stop we

will not go anywhere without the people of Wales coming with us. We

need to convince people it is in their interests to vote yes. Dafydd

Elis-Thomas? I spent 12 years as presiding officer, painfully

building up Wales. I do not believe in time lanes. You have to take the

people with you. Plaid Cymru lost seats in May. What makes you think

you could actually be in government on your own after the likes to

election? -- next election. Politics it is all about a

remarkable turnarounds and I believe that with the connection of

the right message for us in having a national ambition, and also

working on policies, which connect people in their everyday lives - so

that people see that we are about improving the individual family

community lot, as well as having a national aspiration - then we can

make the case for Plaid Cymru. seconds each on a future coalition

before the next election. I don't think that it is likely to happen

but as a party of government, we should always - if the

circumstances mean that that should happen - take those decisions based

on the circumstances at the time. This present was government has 30

seats out of 60. It needs all the help it can get on the right terms.

If there was a progressive programme that would move Wales on

in the direction we would want to go, yes, but I cannot see how

Labour could offer that to us at the moment. The hustings came to an

end last week but a lot more happened beyond that in Welsh

politics. Here is Adrian with a MPs on the Welsh Affairs Select

Committee urged the Welsh government to consider bringing

back the Welsh Development Agency brand to sharpen Wales's global

identity. The agency was abolished in 2006. The assembly's Public

Accounts Committee Chair said he received letters with further

allegations about how organisations managed to their funds.

Investigations into the running of an organisation are continuing.

Tributes were paid to the former leader of the Welsh Labour Party,

Hooper has died. He was MP of Montgomerie Show between 1952 and

1979. The SNP said bank closures were

making it increasingly difficult for people in rural areas to access

branches. -- this member of parliament.

There were warnings that his decay in Wales was among the worst in the

UK. Parents were said to need more support to help keep children's

teeth healthy. -- tooth decay. We have talked at length about the

economy. One of the major talking points this week was the idea

floated by the Welsh Affairs Committee to breathe new life into

the Welsh Development Agency to boost the economy. Is that

something you would like to see? There does need to be some

concerted action on the economy of Wales but I am not convinced that

bringing back the WDA is the answer. There are lot of rose-tinted

spectacles looking back at what that is about and I remember at the

time there being a lot of criticism and the hall quangos debate came

for a reason. But I do think that there needs to beat some new body

of people that pulls together all the best brains and talents to put

together a long term the economic plan. We also talked about some

obstacles - the fact that the Westminster government is not

talking to be others. Someone refused to give evidence to the

committee. You are shaking your head. Welsh MPs have to breathe

some more life into themselves. I say good luck to them. The Welsh

minister reports to us. statistics are quite startling it

in terms of the amount of companies that were in Wales that have

disappeared. How can we get them back? We would not get the same

ones bad because they have gone and but for low wage economies

elsewhere. I think the focus for the Welsh government should be to

build up on the natural advantages and the university areas of

excellence that we have in Wales. That has to be the focus for the

future, not basing ourselves as a low wage economy but as a high-

growth economy. That is the potential for the future. The

structures at this point in time are not what we focus on. It is the