04/03/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

As the price of petrol reaches record highs, Shadow Chancellor cut

fuel duty? Be paid for head and a green campaigner a goal head to

head. -- a petrol head. Later in the programme: It's the

Kirsty and Nick show at the Welsh Liberal Democrats conference. The

Deputy Prime Minister tells delegates that the party needs

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1776 seconds

courage to see through difficult Hello, I'm Aled ap Dafydd and on

Sunday Politics Wales we speak to the Deputy Prime Minister Nick

Clegg about the three toxic reforming bills in Parliament. And

how old she do be before being eligible to vote? Presiding Officer

Rosemary Butler tells us that a debate about lowering the age to 16

should start now. -- Deputy Presiding Officer.

We have Conservative MP Kay Swinburne and Liberal-Democrat AM

Aled Roberts. In the news this morning, a call

from the Mayor of London for for there to be a National Insurance

holiday. How likely is the Chancellor likely -- to grant such

a wish in the upcoming budget? People are calling for all sorts of

tax cuts at the moment, and everybody is saying it is to

stimulate the economy. One tax cut I would support would be anything

but lowers the cost of employing people, so we get that directly to

the front line of employers, but my problem is that I cannot see where

the money will come from, and I have to trust that the Treasury and

the Chancellor in particular have done their sums correctly, and if

they can do it, I hope that is the one they would target.

I suppose there is always the question of taking with one hand

and giving with the other. Would you be in favour of such a holiday?

Obviously we also want to see a lowering of the tax threshold, or

ignoring of income tax, and the reality is that money is tight and

I cannot see that everybody's aspirations will be settled for.

It is the Welsh Liberal Democrat spring conference this weekend in

Cardiff, the main speaker yesterday was a man who does not win

political popularity contests, Nick Clegg. With only five AMs and 8% of

the seats at Westminster, he can however claim that the party is

punching above its weight. But to what extent at the Lib Dems sold

out to their UK coalition partners? I spoke to him about the reforming

bills going through Parliament, and asked him if he was obsessed with

one of them - that of Lords reform. There are many more things in life

that I think a more important than House of Lords reform, I care much

more about changing the tax system so that people on low pay keep more

money in their pockets. I care more about pupil premium, a policy I

championed for years, and about our triple lock guarantee for

pensioners which is giving pensioners across the country the

largest cash increase in a generation. Of course those things

are more important to me. But I am not the one getting particularly

excited about this, the people getting excited about this are

people who do not want any change at all. All the time I think we

will see the onus is not on people like me, it is all those people who

seem to think that for some reason the one thing we cannot possibly

reform is the House of Lords, and I think the more people look at the

way the house of Lords is, and discover that over 70% of the

people there are put there because they are the friends and colleagues

of party leaders. It is stuffed full of the colleagues of party

leaders, they are not dead because of the choices of ordinary people.

The more people see that, the more they want to change it. A poll

commissioned by BBC Wales last week said that the majority of those who

were surveyed favoured the approach of the Welsh Government. If Kirsty

Williams was to be on the side of the mainstream view, she would

criticise you, would not she? have to look at what is best for

patients. And the evidence is abundantly clear that under Labour,

the NHS is worse in Wales than it is in England, waiting times are

worse... A if you ask people, do you like a piece of legislation

that changes the NHS, people react with some anxiety, but I think the

responsibility of people in Government, whether Cardiff and

London, is not simply to ask a question and say, therefore we are

not changing anything - look at what works for patients, and the

basic idea at the core of village a station which we are debating at

Westminster, is simply this - to give people, you and I, a greater

say about what happens when we leave the doctor's surgery. That is

the basic idea, I think it is a good idea, I except it is

controversial, but I certainly think that Labour has a lot to

answer for for delivering worse health outcomes in the NHS here in

Wales, compared to what patients - recruit received in England.

Appalled published last week among health organisations claimed that

one in four of the Welsh population will be affected by the Welfare

Reform Bill. It is a big change, and except that, because what we

are essentially doing is sweeping together these -- This great

complex maze of different individual benefits, simplifying

them into one benefit, the Universal credit, and making sure

that when you receive that it always pays to work. Of course that

is controversial, and I totally understand that organisations who

are familiar with the existing system do not like change.

knock on effect according to them is that 20% of the Welsh purchasing

power on the High Street will disappear, that is �2 billion out

of the Welsh economy, as a result of these �17 billion of savings.

think that statistic is only meaningful if you've think the

weight the Welsh economy should be run is by having a large map of

people depended for their income on benefits. We think that if you want

to improve purchasing power in Wales, and the livelihoods of many

Welsh people, if you want to improve the Welsh economy, you have

to get people into work. Our Hall benefits reforms are based on the

simple insight that it should always pay to work. At the moment,

it doesn't. Aled Roberts is here. How difficult is it for you as a

party decide any different to the party of the lady next to you?

have different ideals, but the reality is in a coalition you come

to agreement between two parties and you agree a platform. It is

easy, we can adopt the attitude of the Welsh Government to introduce

very little in legislation and changed very little, all we can

tackle some of the issues that have probably needed to be tackled for

many years. Would you say that the commission

is sitting knew perfectly - there was some initial outrage from the

Lib Dems when it came to tuition fees and welfare reform, but

ultimately David Cameron is having his way on these? A any

Conservative Party member would berate me for agreeing that that is

the case. They would prefer to have no commission and to have an app

might majority Government in Westminster... But is he a

pushover? There are many backbenchers that believe they have

a disproportionate influence. I think there is a middle way here. A

coalition is just that - we have the two North Hagley Park parties

coming to an agreement on what the platform will be, and I think

attributing blame on credit to one side or the other is inappropriate.

We are in a bad place in terms of economics, and the need to see

through the plans put in place, at the outset of that coalition.

Clegg is calling on your party to show courage. Is that an admission

that you are making very unpopular decisions at Westminster level?

Economic situation this country finds itself is very difficult.

That means that difficult decisions have to be taken - we need to get

the cost of borrowing down, more importantly we have to deal with

issues probably for decades will we have large elements in our

population becoming reliant on benefits. You were at that report

launched - I got the feeling it was uncomfortable for you having to

justify a �17 billion of savings, a lot of money going out of the Welsh

economy. It is important at a politician that I do not go along

to meetings think -- thinking I will hear what I want to hear. I

think a lot of the devil is in the detail, but the reality is the

welfare bill to a large degree is out of control. Expenditure on

housing benefit has increased from �11 billion to �21 billion in the

last ten years. Something has to be done. And we also have to accept

that there are large estates throughout Wales where generations

are growing up with no expectation of work, and we need to tackle that

issue, while still ensuring that does who are most disadvantaged do

not suffer disproportionately from the actions that the Government is

having to take out at Westminster. Can I have a critique from the Lib

Dems from another political party. The leader of Cardiff council has

said the worst is over in terms of the backlash from Robert -- Lib

Dems. Do you think that is right in the context of May's local

elections? We need to focus on what makes a difference structurally for

the Welsh electorate, and concentrate on the big issues of

welfare and NHS structures, to see us through to the future. Getting

diverted on House of Lords reform is something we cannot afford to do

right now. The House of Lords is functioning, and it has been an

unexpected surprise to me on the positive, because they engage with

legislation from Europe at a level that Westminster do not do. So for

me the house of Lords is not a priority - let us focus on the big

issues that we need to focus on to put his country back on the growth

path. I think the condition is functioning, we need to keep

ourselves on that track. This time last year Wales "came of

age" according to the First Minister Carwyn Jones, as the

Senedd acquired new responsibilities after the Yes

fault. The Labour am Rosemary Butler became the new Presiding

Officer. She has been telling our reporter had the Assembly has been

raising its game, and why she feels it is time to consider lowering the

voting age to 16. Rosemary Butler at a St David's day

event in this -- Senedd. It is part of her role as an ambassador for

all things Wales. When I met her, I suggested that the expectations

built up in the powers referendum a year ago had not yet been lived up

to. My job is to make sure that the systems in place here at the

Assembly deal with legislation as it comes through, because it is

important we have these new primary law-making powers. It is important

that the laws actually made are the best ones for the people in Wales.

But I have been busy this last year introducing new systems, and

encouraging backbenchers to introduce their own legislation. We

have had two pieces of legislation accepted - one of raising the age

of young people leaving care from 16 to 18, and another one on mobile

homes in static caravan parks. Yesterday I announced another piece

of backbench legislation. I am also encouraging backbenchers to get

involved in their own debates. We have now a system where members

from three parties get together, and they can introduce their own

debate. All year round Rosemary Butler

seems to promote awareness of what goes on in Cardiff Bay,

particularly amongst young people. She believes it is time to consider

allowing them to be able to vote sooner. Our at which people have

been to more than 300 schools, and when I see people at the shows, I

ask them what they talk about one youth councils. Nobody ever

mentions the voting system, and I am trying to encourage them to look

at it, whether we should vote best 16 or 18. They have introduced it

in the Isle of Man and in Jersey, and some people are afraid of it

and other people think, and 16 I have my job, so it is an

interesting debate. You see a lot of young people, do

you think they are up to it? They are certainly up to it, whether

they have the confidence to do it is a different matter. But that

goes for the whole of the population. Howley finding the job?

It is very exciting and is a great privilege to do the job, but no two

days are the same. This week I have had women from Jordan and Libya,

this morning the Mr Speaker -- the Speaker, and then there is a

meeting with my counterpart in Northern Ireland, so it really is

fascinating, and some days it is really enjoyable, other days it is

really busy, and I think, I am I going to survive the day?

This idea of widening our democracy so that 16-year-olds can vote, is

that a good idea? The actual voting record of those between 18 and 24

is that -- is at the poorer end of the spectrum, so we need to find

ways of incoming -- encouraging everybody to use that democratic

right. If we can do that, I think it will be the time to explore the

16 to 18 Group, but at the moment we are getting it very wrong.

Across Europe, less than 30% are registering votes. At the moment

the other in -- only country in the EU that has got a voting age of 16

is Austria, who introduced it in 2007. Around the world I think

there are five countries who operate at 16 - there must have

come to a collective consensus of 18. So we need to that broadly at

who votes and why, and then find mechanisms to improve that, and

once we have got that sorted and get at least half the population

voting, I think we can look at what measures might get the voting age

down. Turnout is low, so shouldn't we be engaging with those who

currently have the right to box rather than looking at getting more

people into boasts the numbers? party has always voted for lowering

the voting age, but I think the biggest issue is convincing people

that voting in the Assembly actually makes a difference. What

surprised me up to now is that the presiding officer talked about two

private member's bill -- bills being introduced. If you look at

education, health, a whole raft of issues the SNB has control of an

hour, what we have to ask ourselves now is what difference Abbott makes

an what the Government is doing to change the situation? The Presiding

Officer is coming up to a year in the job - seen as a very different

presiding officer to Daffyd Ellis Thomas. Do you favour her approach

of his? I have not experienced Lord Thomas as presiding officer, I have

always find the current presiding officer to be very fair and I think

she is doing a good job. It's very diplomatic answer.

Time now for a look back out a week in 60 seconds. This is a warning

As in David's Bay opinion poll suggested support for independence

was week, with just 7% backing it. The First Minister hosted by St

David's big event in Brussels, saying he wanted Wales to be a

strong partner in Europe, but his - - but part of a strong United

Kingdom to for. The Prime Minister laid on a

reception at ten Downing Street, and in Cardiff Bay around 500

people gathered outside the Senedd to protest against possible changes

at a hospital in Aberystwyth. The Health Minister stressed there were

no plans to close on downgrade the hospital.

Open -- opening debate in the Commons, Labour's Paul Murphy

criticised the UK Government's plans to cut the number of Welsh

MPs from 40-30. Cheryl Gillan presented Neil

Griffiths with a bouquet of Time for a few quick closing

remarks. The First Minister Carwyn Jones was in Brussels last week.

How badly his Wales's voice being heard in Europe? I think its

profile has massively increased over the years, but I think our

rugby team has succeeded in raising our profile higher than any of our

politicians have done. Having been able to talk about this in

Strasbourg, there was a round of applause from MPs across the

chamber. In one sentence, 7% in the St David's Paul were in favour of

independence. Should we be surprised? I think what is

surprising is how quickly the whole devolution debate's moving on. It

would appear that a clear majority fear an extension of powers would

have to use those wisely. I think it is a continuous process, and I

think if anything now, public opinion is moving as fast as the

politicians, and we have to convince people that actually

having our own Government in Cardiff will bring about the real