18/03/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Later in the programme: How does a left-leaning, Welsh learning

Republican from Bala Gwyn the hearts of Wales? -- from the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1707 seconds

Rhondda. We look at Leanne Wood's On the Sunday Politics Wales: A new

leader for Plaid Cymru and the so commission visits Swansea and asks

if there is an appetite to devolve taxation powers. I am joined for

the next 20 minutes by Labour's Nia Griffith and Plaid Cymru's David

Ellis Thomas. This week, the Chancellor will announce his Budget

plans on Wednesday. This seemed likely to be changes in public

sector pay. If there are differentials in the cost of living

throughout the UK, why not scrap national pay rates? It is deeply

unfair. People recognise you should get the same pay for the same job.

What the Chancellor's leaked proposal says is unworkable. Even

differentiating between suburban and inner-city areas, it is very

unfair, and people will ask if they should not have the same pay. If

anything we should be improving private sector pay in areas where

it is low. Public sector workers accepted stoically the freeze on

pay and recognise the difficulties of their financial situation. They

have already been hit very hard by additional pension contributions

and will see this as an unwarranted attack. But Welsh public sector pay

by all accounts his 18 per cent higher vanities for comparable jobs

in the private sector. Wouldn't freezing public sector pay in Wales

close that gap? No, because you are closing the gap down, surely. I

don't understand why it is seen as appropriate for public sector jobs,

including the people I used to employee in the Assembly when I was

presiding, their level of pay was determined in relation to the work

they did so. That is the comparator, not comparison with pay in the

private sector. How does it improve the position of the Welsh economy

to deflate public sector purchasing power? I just don't understand the

economic argument. I'm sure we will hear more on that on Wednesday.

Leanne Wood is the new Plaid Cymru leader with an unexpected win. Her

background is different to their predecessors, so how does a left-

wing Republican from the Rhondda win the hearts of voters across

Wales? Tomos Livingstone reports. We are your party, the People's

Party, of Wales, for Wales. Join us. Helpers rebuild your community.

Help us to rebuild your economy. Together we can build a Wales that

is fair, a new Wales that will flourish, and a new Wales that will

one day be free. After the celebrations, it is back to work

this week for Leanne Wood at the Senate macro. Plaid Cymru will also

look different, led by a woman, Aube Welsh learner from the Rhondda

valleys, and the challenge has been set out for her, to take on Labour

in its South Wales heart dance, but how do you do that? He is someone

who has done it before. She will know better than anybody because

she lives in the community. She will address the issues which

matter to people in terms of jobs, standard of living, housing,

education and health, the things in their everyday life, and it is that

more than theoretical politics that matters, and in that she has worked

before entering Parliament, she has seen the challenges in the

communities of the old coalfield areas and knows naturally how to

pitch that argument and I think she will get a tremendous response to

that. But there is a dilemma for any Plaid leader that you can spend

time attacking the Labour Party but coalitions tend to be the norm

after elections. Do they have to flip-flop and start talking to the

people they have been attacking? What is important is that you

attack the problems and give positive solutions as you see

things to the issues that matter to people, and when an election is

over, there has to be coming together to form a government. If

one party has a majority so be it, otherwise you need to find a common

agenda. We found at a reasonable agenda with Labour between 2007-11

but it didn't stop us criticising them into the following election.

There are many things at Westminster to answer for

particularly, but that is the reality of politician -- coalition

politics which is also a reality in Westminster. Politics is a fine art.

There is a shadow team to appoint. What role should be given to dab of

Ellis Thomas and Elin Jones? Then Lee and what needs to clarify

positions on the royal family and the future of nuclear energy.

leader you are obliged to follow the party line and no doubt Lehane

will do that, not only on matters such as the future of nuclear power,

which is important economic Cleeton of Wales, but equally what upsets

many people across Wales, but on other issues which she has a very

strong personal opinion, but as leader of the party she will be

serving the party as a whole. Leanne Wood is keeping a low

profile this weekend but come to stay there will be nowhere to hide.

She will take on Carwyn Jones at first Minister's Questions, and

then we will find out what being towards -- aggressive towards

Labour means. She is so very different as a

leader to what has been there for her. What do your supporters make

of her victory? I have caused did vote for her, this is the wonderful

thing about the alternative vote system, she got my second

preference, because I think there is a very strong case for Plaid,

especially these days in the economic crisis and the crisis in

public services, being led from the left. This is what the party

thought, obviously, and I clearly accept without reservation that

this is the case. Obviously, there are people in the party, I met some

yesterday, rugby supporters, who will thank me for naming them here,

who were concerned about the balance of opinion within the party

being reflected. That is a matter which of course I have not spoken

about. Either -- I have spoken to Leanne but have not spoken about

the future direction of the Shadow Cabinet. Were you able to allay

their fears? Among stores supporters, they felt the danger of

the party going too far to the left -- your supporters. I wouldn't put

it in those terms, it is in terms a realistic economic programme. These

were business people I spoke to who wanted to make sure business

interests were reflected in the party's position, which is a martyr

for all of us to be concerned about, -- a matter, which we -- because

clearly we need a credible economic agenda which is also green and

faces up to the financial issues that face Wales. Leanne Wood wants

to park her tank if not plight Cymru's on the Labour lawn. Are you

going to say, bring it on, or do you sense a genuine threat to

Labour's superiority in Wales? point is that if she wants to work

sensibly with us on policies to make the economy were property and

-- probably an tackle poverty, we would welcome working weather and

light the way Plaid behaved over the budget in the Assembly --

working with us. If she thinks she will make massive inroads into the

valleys she needs to member in 2001 when she was the candidate and

Plaid was on a hike, she only polled a few hundred more than in

the Seventies, so I don't think she has made that impact in the valleys,

but certainly if she wants to work sensibly wethers, it is good to

have consensus. The arguments from her supporters and herself is that

she is from that community, from the Labour heartlands, and can feel

the pain Labour supporters are feeling and empathises with their

problems and concerns. She can pull supporters away from your party.

I said, as a candidate she did not do that. She is a list Assembly

Member and they do not get the votes in the same way as

constituency members do. I don't think she has done that to date,

then, and if she wants to work sensibly with us on policies we can

agree on, great, but to say that somehow or other there will be a

huge shift in values politics, it will not happen. Nia Griffith makes

a pertinent point. She has not been tested by the whole of the wealth -

- Welsh electorate. She is a list member who has been internally

elected. Will this be the first test of Leanne Wood's popularity,

if you like, across the masses? have never distinguished between

list and constituency members. The way we gather boats is different,

clearly, but we are talking about the national profile of the party -

- gather votes. Membership has clearly indicated whether it wishes

to place itself, and for the first time it is led from the left, the

first time since the early Nineties, and it is something I support.

During the campaign, two offers supporters raised questions. Adam

priced -- Adam Price caught her and intellectual risk and Dyfed A one

said she might put her foot in it now and then. You share those

concerns? I do not. I think she is intellectually coherent. I have

known her for many years because she was a political concert --

assistant before being apart Titian. She has worked in politics most of

her life -- before being a politician. Adam Price said an

intelligence risk. That is right. And I find her communication skills

excellent otherwise she would not have done so well in the election.

But of course we do not know yet exactly what direction she wants to

take the party, but she will have an issue there, of course, because

not all the group clearly supported her. But then they didn't support

other people either. I am sure we will find out more about the future

direction at the Plaid conference next weekend.

A series of public events to gauge opinion on whether the Welsh

Government should get tax or borrowing powers had begun. This

will Commission chose the elegant surroundings of the Swansea Grand

Theatre to launch its roadshow -- this will Commission. It wasn't a

sell-out, with less than a dozen people turning up. One commissioner

told the Sunday Politics he was confident the recommendations would

be put into practice. Adrian Browne reports.

Forget the dazzling star-studded opening nights Swansea's Grand

Theatre has hosted. The Silk commissioned was away from the main

stage with a series of public events mulling over the merits of

transferring tax and borrowing powers from London to Cardiff. Just

11 members of the public turned up, but there were some spirited

contributions. A parish town council has tax-varying powers, but

the national government does not. Differential taxes for different

industries could well attacked -- attract money making individuals

and industries to Wales. shouldn't government be able to

extend this planning horizon by borrowing? There is very, very

strong evidence that reductions drive economic welfare. Those who

did join this alternative night out were glad they did. I found it very

interesting, actually, because I haven't thought about it in the

past. It is something you hear about but don't really taking, and

it raised interesting points for me, who for thought. What did you

think? Well, I have a few concerns, obviously it isn't going to be

neutral, it will cost me more in tax, and I would like to think that

money will be well spent in improving the infrastructure in

Wales. If they raise �10 from that tax, the government will say, we

will give you �10 less in that tax, so what will we get? Commission

members were as positive as they could be about attention figures.

It is the first kick-off, fairly short notice, and I think as the

Commission gathers strength and as we go around and publicise it more,

hopefully we will get that attendance. It is very important to

us as we go around Wales to give these opportunities to people all

over Wales so they can put their views to us either to come into one

of these events or getting involved through our Web forum or sending in

a questionnaire, or whatever it is, and this is an opportunity for

people we feel is very important. The recommendations on devolving

taxes and borrowing powers are due this autumn, but will they be

implemented? I am very confident, I mean, obviously we need coherent

recommendations, and we obviously bearing in mind what sort of

timescale is appropriate and so on, but I am confident that the

government is keen we come up with coherent Browett -- proposals of in

those terms of reference, keeping the government together and doing

what is best for Wales, which is what the Commission is trying to do.

As one member suggested tonight crowd control was never likely to

be a problem but it was a lively debate which compared well with

Assembly or parliamentary debates for that matter, but overwhelmingly

dominated by pro-devolution lists. There will be other events

including dropping in centres across Wales throughout the spring.

It was hardly standing room only. What does that tell us about how

much this debate is excite -- exercising the minds of the was

public? They have other concerns at the moment, about the economy, and

people are really saying, let's let the commission do the work and find

out exactly what it would mean if we devolved certain taxes and how

it would work in practice. Let them give us the detail about what would

be possible and impossible, then we can look at the recommendations,

but as you say, it is not top in people's minds at the moment.

Commission is confident, by all accounts, that the UK government

will act on its recommendations. Would you like to hazard a guess as

to what they will be? No. I don't know what the UK government is

likely to say, but the trouble with these exercises is they are

consultations, and we have no guarantee, we haven't implemented

the commission, there are things that haven't been done. The

difficulty of preceding this way through a commission, however

intelligent the commissioners or the chair of the Commission may be,

are however experienced, they are dependent on the will of particular

ministers at whatever time, and I think 2014 takes us into very

interesting territory North of the border, as they would say, and that

will probably have more influence on what government things than the

contents of the Silk Commission report. The Welsh Government says

it wants to see reform of the Barnett formula before the

devolving of some taxation powers. Will thus become a political

football? The key thing is to ensure that what is given but --

with one hand is not taken away with the above. Any proposals that

come forward from the Silk Commission, if the government is to

implement them they need to look at the close detail. The existing form

at the moment is the Barnett formula. Labour was keen to ensure

a flaw was there to make sure we didn't begin to have a disadvantage

from that formula, which up until a couple of years ago has served us

extremely well, but the question now is obviously borrowing powers.

Of course the what government should are borrowing powers, that

should be useful for it -- the Welsh Government. The formula

seemed to serve you well in government and out of government it

didn't serve Wales very well. that is not what I said.

Independently, the Barnett formula came in a particular way and reach

a plateau after which things began to be less advantageous to Wales --

reached. From the initiation of the Barnett formula up to this point it

has worked well. It is not because of the change of government, just

the way it worked out. Okay, as well as that meeting in Swansea

last week a lot more happened last week. Time for a look back now at

the week and 60 seconds with Adrian again. -- week in 60 seconds.

The Welsh Government said the official European GDP statistics on

falling economic prosperity in Wales where -- West Wales and the

valleys were misleading, and the Enterprise Minister Edwina Hart

admitted the Welsh Government hadn't got it right on the banding

of Wales. The Carmarthen West and Pembrokeshire South MP Simon Hart

and Jennie Willett, Cardiff Central MP, welcomed UK government plans to

legalise gay marriages. How will Williams called for legal minimums

on alcohol pricing in England after legislation passed its first hurdle

in the Scottish parliament. The MP for Abba Conwy criticise the Prime

Minister's approach to Scottish devolution, one in the Welsh Tories

should look on recent events in Scotland with trepidation, saying

merely tolerating devolution was no longer an option, and the Vale of

Clwyd MP paid tribute to civic and church leaders in send us have as

it became Wales's newest city as part of the diamond jubilee

celebrations of the Queen -- St asked if.

These GDP figures showing falling prosperity in Wales, I suppose we

can come at this from two angles, either the bucket load of European

money that has come to Wales or has I suspect there is an element of

truth in both of them in that if there hadn't been at intervention,

economic performance relatively would be worse, but there is an

issue, and everyone is agreed on this, but the way the funds have

been managed compared to other countries, where there seems to

have been more effective infrastructure development for

example, as a result of European funding. The Welsh Government are

not recognising GDP figures and don't think it is an accurate

indicator. Do you? What is important is how we go through --

forward from here, and already Edwina Hart as Business Esther is

making a difference, putting money into but -- viable businesses to

keep jobs and stimulate the economy, but clearly we need to look at the

most effective use of European funding and ensure that we get a

good return. You mention Edwina Hart, she admitted this week she

doesn't have the branding right in terms of selling Wales. The you

have any ideas for her? She has only been in post less than a year.

We need to get out there and make sure Wales is a name people do know

and are familiar with, and I am sure she will come up with ideas.

Any ideas? We were helped very much by events yesterday. We could

packager per DVD! The Minister should now leaders forward. Dafydd

Elis-Thomas and Nia Griffith, thank you both very much indeed. Next