25/03/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

While the new Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood makes her pitch for

real independence' the Welsh Conservatives gather in St Asaph to

defend the future of the Union. We would like us the conflicting

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1818 seconds

messages throughout the spring Hello, I'm Aled ap Dafydd and on

the Sunday Politics Wales. It's a double dose of spring conferences,

but the messages are poles apart. The Welsh Conservatives gather in

St Asaph to defend the union while Plaid Cymru leave Ffos Las

racecourse and start a journey towards independence. Leanne Wood

made her maiden conference speech in which she made the case for real

independence by strengthening the economy. The likely outcome will be

debated by Labour's Vaughan Gethin and Bethan Jenkins from Plaid Cymru.

Before we debate independence, we have the Budget last week. The

decision to abolish the PPP rate of income tax seems to be a wise one

bearing in mind that the decision to raise it up to 50 pence in the

first place was not raising the cash it was meant to. In terms of

priorities and the message you send out, I don't think it is clear how

they expect to recover that money. There is an assumption that people

will come back and start paying tax when they are not doing so now.

What it has done is given tax cuts for about 14,000 millionaires and

squeeze income for pensioners and normal working people who will feel

the pinch and yet again. Is there anything in the Budget that you

welcome? On the pensioners, I have had many people contact me, very

concerned that they are being targeted when times are tight, when

they are thinking about their future. This is something we need

to get to grips with. Wouldn't it be great if we have more powers in

Wales so we could determine our own futures? What I will say is that I

think we have not been consulted by the Welsh government or the

National Assembly for Wales. George Osborne has not truly considered

the realities of Wales and his punishing those in society who are

the poorest instead of those who should be paying more. We will take

that as a no. The Plaid Cymru's Spring conference

came to an end yesterday, but the Conservative Spring rally is being

held in St Asaph. The Welsh Secretary, Cheryl Gillan, has told

delegates that -- has addressed delegates. Let's work together in

the fight for the very future of our country, the United Kingdom. A

country which provides stability and security, and which proves that

we are stronger together than we are a part. So it ladies and

gentlemen, let's go out there and let's take those seats and let's

take the Conservatives in Wales from strength to strength. Thank

you very much. So, a big weekend the Conservatives

as they prepare for May's council elections. Our correspondent, Tomos

Livingstone, met up with Andrew RT Davies, the Conservative leader in

the Assembly, on his farm in the Vale of Glamorgan to talk about

their rally. The backdrop to your Valley is the

Budget last week and in that Budget is what amounts to a tax rise for

many pensioners. Doesn't that make it difficult when campaigning in

local elections? No. We are seeing an increase in the state pension of

�5.30, the introduction of the triple lock on pensions. When you

compare that to what Labour did when they in government, which is

raised private pensions and also have a 75p increase per week, that

shows a commitment to pensioners or stuck but is it that scenting --

but isn't as sending a wrong message to pensioners?

This Budget was built on prosperity, jobs and prosperity. We have got to

make sure there is confidence in the economy and that companies can

invest, create jobs and opportunities. For pensioners,

there will be a �5.30 increase in week as of April 1st and that is a

vital ingredient to make sure that we are protecting pensioners.

Looking at the local elections, you have majority control in Monmouth

and the Vale of Glamorgan. Are you going to move beyond that and vote

Conservative in other areas of Wales? There are various indicators

to show how successful we are. We are going to be, for the first time,

campaigning and having candidates in all local authorities across

Wales. We will have record numbers of candidates at in the field so

people have the opportunity to vote Welsh Conservative come May 3rd,

and above all we will be articulating the positive messages

from the councils that we have a running. We have a council tax

raised in porn -- Monmouth. In Monmouth Show, local taxpayers know

well that when councillors they elect spend their money, they can

see where it is being spent. We have got to be standing up for the

health service against Labour's cuts and protecting our education

across Wales. If we do not have a bright future for young people,

what future will there be for this country? For would be a good result

for the Welsh Conservatives? Ultimately it is a foolish

politician to determine what the electorate will decide. We will put

a strong platform out there, greater transparency, protecting

our health service, those are vital ingredients for people to have

confidence in the Conservative message and make sure that there

are candidates across Wales so people can vote was conservative,

and ultimately challenged all local authorities to make sure that when

people consider their boat, they have that opportunity to vote Welsh

Conservative. We'll be doing our part and we hope that the

electorate respond by looking at the positives in the Vale of

Glamorgan and Newport, and in Monmouthshire and in North Wales

where we helped run councils to make sure that people know

Conservatives are on their side in these difficult times. While this

is going on, the commission was looking at possible tax increases

in the Welsh government. Some Conservative MPs are in favour of

that now, where the Stan? We looked into this issue of this goal

responsibility and ultimately, it is all but there is no

accountability in this area. �15 billion is sent down from

Westminster and all we have is a government that fritters that money

away and the taxpayer who is paying that money cannot hold people to

account in Cardiff Bay. What I believe it is that we need fiscal

responsibility so there is accountability. The measure of that

we should lead to the commission to determine because ultimately, it

has been set up by West minister to look at a range of issues and they

should be allowed the space and opportunity to come up with

deliberations. We will not of folk running commentary on deliberations.

I know they will be very objective. Thank you very much.

It's also been a big few days for the new Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne

Wood. The party has been holding its Spring Conference at Ffos Las

racecourse in Camarthenshire and when I spoke to her I began by

asking if she was still pinching herself after her recent victory.

Congratulations on your victory. started to sink in a bit now,

especially after the conference this weekend. It was a whirlwind of

a week. We have had a really successful conference and I really

sense there is a huge gain from my leadership. A lot of party members

are at the moment actually trying to cover your back in terms of the

local elections not been a referendum. When the think it would

be right for the electorate to judge how well you are doing?

want to see gains over time, I am not expecting to see a huge change

around in a short period of time. Over the next year or two, if we

can start seeing a movement in the direction in support for more

independence, that would be something but I think would be a

great achievement. We can make some advances in the local elections,

but I think that our main aim will be to look at the next assembly

elections to increase the size of the assembly group. You are saying

that you understand and share the concerns of the people in your back

yard he would naturally vote Labour. How much do you think the you --

you will have to do to win back the support which will party had back

in 1989 but which has disappeared since then? We have got a lot of

work to do, there is no question about that. I'm not expecting big

changes in the short term, but generally, politicians have a lot

of work to do now because so many people are disillusioned with

politics in general. But time is something which is not often

offered to politicians, especially a party leader. But time is what it

takes, I'm afraid, and people need to be realistic about what we can

expect to achieve as well. The economic crisis has meant that

people are looking for different solutions and I am hoping that

under my leadership, I can become a different an attractive party to

people who are looking for that. I will aim to win seats right proud

Wales, but if we cannot dent Labour's majority in some of those

Valley seat then we will be going in the right direction. But winning

valley seats means that you will then have a chance of forming the

next government. It you do not make that breakthrough, he will at best

be the second largest party. Are you saying that the only way back

into government is that a Coalition? Ultimately I bought my

party to be the biggest party in the assembly. I have one for us to

govern alone, but I don't think we will be able to do that in one term.

It would be fantastic if we get, and I'm not going to limit the

ambition in any way, but to be a realistic we would need to do that

over more than one term. If we take a Valley seat in the next assembly

election, I would be overjoyed. I will be working to that end, but we

have to be realistic about what it we can expect to achieve. Plaid

Cymru would have to be a party of government to be can see there be a

referendum on independence. How long do you think it would take for

Plaid Cymru to be in government for that question to be put in front of

the Welsh people? In Scotland it has taken two terms. The SNP formed

a minority government and now they are a majority government and the

referendum will take place during this second majority SNP government.

I think that that is not unreasonable for asked to see a

similar situation in Wales. believe not at the next assembly

election, but the one after that that you can conceivably see a

Plaid Cymru government, a majority government? I don't put a time

frame on this, but that would be something that we should certainly

aim for. Ultimately of course, any move towards independence would

have to be done with the support of people in Wales and we would be

working to take people with us every step up the way. It would

take a huge transformation for that to come about, because if you look

at the amount of support which Plaid Cymru has at the moment in

the valley seats, you're not even polling 30 %. But it was a huge

transformation that a place in Scotland. If you look at the

Central Belt between Glasgow and Edinburgh, they were solid areas

for Labour in the past. They are not any more. If the SNP can

achieve that in Scotland, I cannot see any reason why Plaid Cymru

cannot achieve that in Wales. you very much.

What does the concept of real independence mean? I think what

Lehane is trying did it is to form a late policy around the concept of

independence. In the past, Plaid Cymru have been guilty of saying we

want independence, but not looking at why they wanted it in the gums

of Environment, natural resources, and so forth, criminal justice.

What Lehane is going to be doing now that she has announced the

Commission on economics which Adam Price will be doing -- are heading,

is to get to grips with what that will mean in real terms. If you are

selling it to the people of Wales today, of what would independence

mean? We had the Budget last week, what with the tax be? We have to

have these commissions now. I believe that we will put all of

these ideas together. People have been this Union has offered them.

The Budget has not delivered for the Welsh. We have this commission

now and we are asking for more powers over our own financial

resources, over our own natural resources for a start, water, for

example we have a wealth of resources. Let's have that debate

in Plaid Cymru now under new leadership and let us go forward in

that positive manner. You are obviously not in favour of

independence, but isn't there inevitability about the change in

relationship between the countries which form the United Kingdom?

There is nothing inevitable about the change. There will be an

ongoing conversation with it and the union about where devolution

starts and ends. I want to see an end point where there is a settled

picture across the UK. That is important. But I think the bigger

problem we have -- that Leanne Wood has is that she is going in a

direction where the public are not with her. She is trying to make the

real case for independence and that is a fairly substantial trashing of

Plaid Cymru's history. I think the case has been made and the public

do not buy it. Are you saying that if Wales was to have further fiscal

devolution that would then be the end.? That is a conversation you

have to have with people of Wales, but also across the whole union.

is that a settlement you would want to see? It depends on how each

party relates to one another. I think there has to be reform around

the UK parliament as well. The second chamber could be an obvious

way to balance representation across the Union. You have to think

about devolution across England as well. The conversation I want to

see happen is that, but I am clear that people do understand there are

benefits in the union and that is what the opinion polls reveal. They

reveal little support. I don't think setting yourself up as a

party of constitutional change first is helpful. I want to be part

of a party, I am part of a party where social justice improvement

and quality is the priority. Can we look at the upcoming turf warfare

between Plaid Cymru and Labour? Similar votes now, bearing in mind

Leanne Wood's tendencies. She said that it was unlikely that Plaid

Cymru would win the majority at the next assembly election. How long do

you think it would make for them to get a breakthrough? Leanne Wood

comes from a place where she wants to support an element of the party

in areas where perhaps we have not had the same resources that we may

have had in the past. What we need to do is make that claim, showing

that we are the main opposition to Labour in places like Talbot.

People are coming to worse and saying, like that -- Labour are

complacent and they are not listening to us. What we talk about

independence been something holistic, we need to say that Plaid

Cymru is there to push up the change will stop we would not have

got devolution apart from Plaid Cymru in existence. We have to set

the agenda for independence now. We have doubt that conversation with

people, not all sit on them, but say what would be the benefits of

an independent Wales. Can you envisage a period before the next

assembly election way you will be friends again, or has Leanne Wood's

presence as a frontline left of centre party leader made that

virtually impossible? At variance points, I would like there to be

co-operation between different parties. We have half the seats so

we cannot behave like a majority, but there romp more fundamental

questions about why your priorities lie as a party. Leanne Wood has

just started and I think there will be real difficulties for her in

serving up a logical case. For example a position on pay, Plaid

Cymru are essentially in favour of all Wales pay structures. Most

people see that as reasonable pay. I don't think that is the sort of

thing that people will want to vote for so wrapping it up in a flag and

saying that we are interested in independence is where the public

are. Thank you for now. Tuesday saw Leanne Wood make her

debut at First Minister's Questions. All eyes were watching to see how

the new leader would get on - her performance, as a colleague put it,

was "safety first". With a woman leading Plaid Cymru there is now a

changing dynamic in Welsh Politics which means that Kirsty Williams is

no longer the only female party leader. Here's a little flavour of

First Minister's Questions. Can I urge you at this time ahead

of tomorrow's announcement to make a specific commitment to arrange a

meeting this afternoon between the four of us in this chamber so that

we can immediately it seek agreement in Wales on cross-party

statement which should be presented to the Chancellor ahead of the

Budget announcement tomorrow? afternoon may be difficult given my

timetable. Perhaps we should wait and see what the other parties say

regarding whether they will join us. A more confrontational approach

came on the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, Kirsty Williams.

I thought this session was titled questions to the first minister. Of

course if he would like to swap places with myself -- myself, I

would be happy to take him up on the offer! After the session, I met

up with Kirsty Williams to discuss this.

Being the only female leader in the Liberal-Democrats was York US P.

The appeal threatens by Leanne Wood? I am very glad not that that

issue pointed at me all the time. When I first got here, I was the

youngest woman here and I was glad to lose the tag. I am equally glad

to see other women making it to the top a Welsh politics. I hope it

serves as a role model to demonstrate to people across Wales.

I hope we are taking lessons in England as well that women can get

to the top of politics. It is something that you can combine with

a family life. Is there anything in the make-up of

women that make for better politicians? The thing that you get

anything more out of first Minister's Questions? Really by the

fact you are a woman? I don't think so. There are some fantastic male

politicians and some lousy ones, and I think you get the same with

the now politicians. Very often, women in politics raised different

subject than men and if women were not there, certain subjects would

not be given the airing and the debate time than if it was simply a

male orientated chamber. One issue that is raised often is that it is

hard for women to strike a balance between a career in politics and

bringing up a family. Is there more that could be done in that regard?

It is a real challenge, but politically it that -- particular

aspects of that are pointed out women because traditionally women

are considered as being the main carers are women, but they play to

some of my male colleagues who have young children as well.

Increasingly as men look to have a greater involvement in their

children's lives, it can be tough for them. What has changed, it is

not that women have taken a leadership positions, but

politicians are becoming younger. If you look back, people were

getting to the top that their careers when their children had

grown up, but now we are seeing leaders in all areas of Parliament

meeting that level when they have young children at home. It is a

tell us what everyone. I am yet to find the ultimate solution to

solving that issue. Perhaps Lianne and I can sit down and have a

discussion about it because we all have a young families.

Two women at the top. Is it him Borton, should it make any

difference? -- is it important. you look at Labour, at the start of

devolution, we had a difficult debate in our party to guarantee a

significant level of female representation. That has changed

the quality of debate within the assembly and I am glad we did it.

Those women have not just come in like that. You have had serious

female politicians making decisions and taking responsibility. That is

a good thing for world politics. But I always thought that politics

was about policy, not about whether you were male or female? Yes, but

at the end of the day, we need to encourage women to get involved in

politics because it has been dominated by men for some 80 years

-- so many years. In our local authorities, there is a

predominance the four men to stand. Women may not have the confidence

to put their names forward. Seeing Lianne and Kirsty at the helm, that

is going to inspire a new generation of young women to come

forward and to feel that they have a place. That is how I felt before

I joined Plaid Cymru. I saw Leanne Wood as an inspiration. Positive

discrimination for female shortlists has been a toxic matter

in the past. Are you in favour of that? I am in favour of positive

action because people like myself and people like Leanne Wood would

not be standing here today if we did not have that support. You can

give all the training in the world, but you have to have certain

measures. It is no surprise that it was Plaid Cymru and Labour that

they put that into place which is why we did have more representation

from Women in the National Assembly. When you are dealing with a been a

politician, is it any different was that no. I do not have any

compunction in dealing with -- disagree with the mild politicians

banned male politicians. It does broaden the nature of the debate

and changes some of the weight bad -- the way that change comes around.

Kirsty was very aggressive in how she dealt with first minister's

questions this week. Having a softer approach does not

necessarily guarantee that you will be more effective, but if you look

at the way Leanne Wood approached First Minister's Questions, it

wasn't aggressive. I'm not sure about the gimmick of, let's meet

this afternoon, but different ways can be effective.

Time now for a quick look back at The first minister Carwyn Jones

represented the six nations Trophy to the Welsh team as a thousands of

rugby fans gathered to celebrate the Grand Slam success. Leanne Wood

appointed the former MP Adam Price to head of economic Commission to

develop the party's vision for the party.

John Griffiths have ruled out a Budget cut as a way of stopping the

spread of TB. There will be a vaccination problem.

In the Budget the Chancellor announced enhanced capital

allowances for the boss government's enterprise zone. From

next month, companies investing in plant and machinery will be able to

offset that expenditure against tax. This man called for tree lovers to

help conserve end ancient tree in the Commons New Palace Yard. He was

worried that the Indian bean tree might be removed to make way for

the -- make way for the Jubilee Let's take an issue relevant to

each of your parties. Adam Price heading this commission. Everyone

in the party now has a huge role to play. I am sure that the expense

will be used by Leanne Wood as part of her future team. -- the

experience. Everyone will have to come up with good -- with the good

Where is the new science which suggests that that is the correct

move? If you look at the reports, it went through a number of factors

that would lessen the specific impact and value of a cult. We

heard this week that one in four of those animals are expected to have

TB. It does not guarantee that there will be an eradication of TB.

It is not even the majority caused of TB in badgers. The other point

is you have to think about the potential.