01/07/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Cameron opens the door to a

referendum with Britain's Later in the programme: A potential

disaster, one description of changes to council tax benefit -

could it be hitting not only households but also Welsh councils

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1685 seconds

Hello, I'm Aled ap Dafydd and welcome to the Sunday Politics

Wales. A potential disaster. That's one description of a new benefit

system coming in in April. We'll hear why the Welsh Local Government

Association is predicting trouble ahead for Council Tax Benefit

recipients. And it looks like everyone can borrow money, subject

to the banks' approval, apart from the Welsh government. What does

Carwyn Jones need to do to get that cash in? Lending us 20 minutes of

their time to guide us through those topics and more are the

conservative, Nick Ramsay, and Labour's Mick Antoniw. Back in the

news this morning David Cameron once again raising the issue of a

referendum on the EU. In light of the eurozone crisis, doesn't this

subject now have real relevance? think the European Union is going

through a State of constitutional flux. If there are going to be any

changes which have an impact on the relationship between Britain and

the EU I think we have to go back to thinking about a referendum. It

is clear there is the reform in the area, partly as a result of the

financial crisis. I do not think you can rule it out. What we have

seen recently from David Cameron is a move where he has been reaching

out to the Conservative Party on things like benefits for example.

If there was a Conservative Government in future he would want

to take benefit cuts even further. Isn't this another way he is trying

to reach out to the fringe of the party? I do not think he is doing

it for those reasons. His potential for Europe is good. He has always

been sceptical on that front. I think I am glad this is on the

table. It is a real possibility which should be considered. We do

not know what is going to happen over the next few years with the

European Union. We must let the ground Settle and consider this for

the future. OK, thank you both for now. A leading figure in Welsh

local government is warning a new benefit system, coming in next

April, is a potential disaster. Steve Thomas, Chief Executive of

the Welsh Local Government Association, told Sunday Politics

that UK ministers are devolving council tax benefit to Wales in

haste and with huge cuts attached. The changes are part of radical

plans to transform the entire benefits system, as Adrian Browne

reports. The UK Government describes its welfare reforms as

the biggest for 60 years. They will directly affect hundreds of

thousands of people in Wales. Many live in places like this which are

made up of former mining communities. They want to simplify

the benefits system, save money and make sure it will come payments

fall consistently as income and earnings rise. Ministers call this

making work pay and it is worrying people dependent on best -- these

benefits. The Citizens Advice Bureau here are being contacted by

more and more people trying to work out where they will stand. One of

them was this woman who lives up the road. Years after contracting

bacterial meningitis she struggles to walk and is on benefits for a

severe Disability, housing and council tax among others. It feels

like a sword is hanging over my head. I am just sitting there

waiting. I will do my best to make sure that I understand what is

going on and hopefully to avoid any major financial issues.

ministers consider further possible benefit cuts, this woman fears what

the future holds for many people in communities like hers. Nobody I

know wants to be stuck on benefits. I was a high earner. I would I want

to be sat here all be a virtual prisoner in my own home. Absolutely

terrified about what the Government is going to do to me. Under the

Welfare Reform Act a whole host of benefits are moving into universal

credit. Disability living allowance becomes the personal independence

payment. Council tax benefit is being devolved. Steve Thomas of the

Welsh Local Government Association says councils lack key information.

It is a potential train wreck. Council tax benefits have been

devolved to the wealth Government by 2013. It is being devolved in

haste and is coming with a large sting in detail. There is a cut of

�20 million attached to it. The timescales involved are very tight

but to add a huge cut like that towards a major substantial benefit

really does cause us concern. you ever seen anything like this

before? To give you a scale of it, it is a benefit claimed by 337,000

families in Wales. It is the biggest means tested benefit and

one quarter of households receive it. The changes we are required to

make are huge. It feels like a reliability -- a liability rather

than a responsibility that is being transferred to us. The Welsh

Government has been kept involved every step of the way. It is a

matter for the Welsh Government to implement these areas. For people

with disabilities and in need, all these changes we have been making

as fast as the UK Government is concerned, is so that we can target

and direct benefits and help most to those in need. The Welsh

Government disagrees. They were told this week there are many

unanswered questions on Council Tax Benefit. Despite meeting last week

we still do not know the amount of core funding which will be

available for the scheme. We also do not know what the administrative

burden will be on Wales in terms of taking this forward as well.

welfare reforms taking place over the coming months and years are to

fundamentally alter the relationship between the individual

and the State. Whether they succeed or fail there could be major

consequences for us here in Wales and across the UK for many decades

to come. A lot is made of the respective gender between the UK

Government and the Welsh Government. We get the respect in getting Welsh

ministers saw little notice about these changes? We have heard there

have been discussions between the Welsh Government and London. The SS

being implemented in April and they will not find out until November

the exact details. The need to have discussions. It is no good for them

to simply say we do not have the information. This is in essence

about localising the council tax system. I am not hearing people

seeing it is not a good idea to localise or give the Welsh

Government the freedom to make these decisions. And now let's put

that issued to be be a power other politician. He is being

disingenuous about what is happening. The benefit is being

given to Wales but they are cutting it by 10%. We are not being given

the information necessary. One- quarter of Welsh households receive

council tax benefit. Some might ask the question What is the Welsh

Labour Government doing it since devolution to ensure that less

people in Wales are dependent on such benefits. We are, but do not

forget, one of the issues with the benefit is that three-quarters of

the people in receipt of the benefit are actually in work. One

of the biggest issues is low pay. You can be in work, earning, and

still entitled to benefit. That is where the debate has come in at the

moment about a living wage. It is not just an issue in Wales but

throughout the UK. How on Earth, when you have had �2 million taken

out of your budget can you face the responsibility? There will be

serious consequences. What would you say to the women we saw in the

film who has suffered bacterial meningitis, has difficulty walking,

and now faces the possibility that her benefits will be cut? She is a

person who wants to be out there working that is not in a position

to do so. No one is saying anything else. We are really sorry for the

situation she is then. The Government is not turning its back

on her. But the Government does not feel sorry enough because they are

cutting her benefits. There is a responsibility to make sure the

economy works in Wales. The situation has to be responsive.

they have a responsibility not to cut her benefits? It is not doing

that, it is putting the power of the council tax in the hand of the

Assembly. That is what this says about. You can give us the

responsibility but make sure you give us the money to do the job and

a proper timescale. Are you telling us that the 10% cut is not going to

have a serious impact on the people we see in our surgeries up and down

Wales? The Government has racked up so much debt we have to have cut

now. The responsibility of your Government is to get on with

improving the economy in Wales so we are not constantly talking about

this. Would you concede that targeting benefits at those who

really warrant benefit is a good move? Would you can see deer are

people out there who are in a position to work but plainly decide

just to stay at home? There are, there have been and there probably

always will be. This is comparative to be tax avoidance that goes on.

We have people on very focused benefits. The danger of creating a

general benefit across the border is that you do not focus on the

people in the most need. The complexities in the benefit system

is that there has been an ambition to focus the money on those in most

need. You will have the power here so you can do that. We are not

being given the power of the benefit. We are being given one

element that has been cut by 10%. We are not being given the time and

information to allow us to implement a fairer system. I think

that the Assembly should be having more responsibility. Do you support

those cuts? I think they are necessary sadly because of the mess

this country was left then. People like the women in the film and many

thousands up and down the valleys to do not know what their benefits

are who are living on the margins, they are low paid, pensioners and

the disabled... The Welsh Government can either take

responsibility for improving Wales or not. This is a classic example

of what is going on at the moment. Generating extra cash is something

we often think about and the First Minister is no exception. The Welsh

Government is talking to the Treasury about the issue. Cutting

back on revenue streams is one way of boosting the coffers says Carwyn

Jones. We will create a Revenue scheme -- revenue steam against

which we can borrow and I think that is positive. The Severn Bridge

will be taken over in 2017, he says the resultant move will lead to

lower tolls for motorists. A deal on the bridge would not mean that

the toll would disappear but it could possibly be reduced slightly.

Will be toll revenue cover the maintenance costs of the bridge? We

think it would but we want to ensure this is discussed carefully.

Do you agree that giving the Welsh Government control over the tolls

on the bridge is part of the Barnett formula? It does pit Will

at a disadvantage. I think it is an area that needs to be looked at. --

does boot Wales at a disadvantage. You could secure earnings from the

bridge, say, 50 million over 10 years, that could go to capital

projects, would you be in favour of going down that road? I would. The

calls have to come down. -- tolls. We need to be making sure there is

not a tax on business. How you do it is open to debate. It needs to

be done eventually. There is a big debate about borrowing powers and

devolving tax to Wales. Stamp duty for example. These are often

referred to as taxes that are not worth much, why would we want them?

Some of them help you on focusing on things like economic roots into

Wales. The reality, the most important of all the changes that

are needed, is actually borrowing powers. We are in a position that

Wales is actually the only body that cannot actually borrowed money.

On borrowing powers, when budgets are stretched and there is not a

lot of money sloshing about, some would say the last thing you want

to be doing is borrowing money in case you cannot pay it back?

Borrowing is an interesting one. Borrowing in principle, there is no

reason the Welch Government should not have it. As long as there are

strict parameters I think it would be a good thing. Earlier in the

programme you were caring Labour apart for getting us into this

massive debt? Borrowing is not a problem so long as it is regulated

and done for infrastructure programmes that will give us a

large return. I much prefer borrowing to raising income tax

which I think would cause all sorts of problems. Time for a quick look

back to the last week in its 60 seconds. Pavements could be fined

up to �120 if their children regularly play truant. They say

help would be Devon and fines would be a last resort. Labour MPs were

accused of not wanting to get up early for work over electoral

arrangements. The debate is planned for the early hours of tomorrow

morning but Labour said it should be debated on the floor of the

Commons. Plaid Cymru urged Welsh nationalists to show the same

maturity as Sinn Fein politicians following the handshake between the

Queen and Martin McGuinness. And Julie Morgan called for a vacant

plot of land next to the Senedd to be turned into an allotment. She

said she was already growing tomatoes on her Cardiff Bay office

windowsill. I do not know how green-fingered my guests are. What

about that plot of land? It is a bit of an eyesore. It is. How it

BM's have the time to grow cucumbers and tomatoes and things,

good luck to them. I find little enough time to eat during D-Day let

alone tend to a plot. I have barely enough time to weed my garden

during the day. Let's end on a slightly more grown up subject. A

proposed fine for appearance of frequent truants. If the parent

takes the child to the school gates, there is not much more they can do,

is there? I think you have to think very seriously before you start

criminalising parents. The problem some parents have with their

children actually attending. I think there are not many parents

when their children get older especially good do not know where

they are. Where there are parents who are deliberately and blatantly

violating their responsibility, that might be another matter.

should be a last resort. You could end up with some parents who,

through no fault of their own, should be penalised. They should be

dealt with before so that you are not blaming parents for what is

going on. That is it from me for this week. There is no problem --