11/11/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Later in the programme we hear calls from the former broadcasting

minister Kim Howells for more resignation from the BBC in the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2143 seconds

wake of the news like child abuse London on this Sunday Politics

Wales we will bring you more on the aftermath of the resignation of

George Entwistle but we will ask is it distracting from the issues of

historic child abuse in North Wales children's homes? I am joined by

the former Welsh Office minister and Conservative MP Jonathan Evans

and the M P Mark Drakeford. We will speak shortly but first the former

Labour broadcasting minister Kim Howells thinks more resignations

will follow that of the BBC Director General George Entwistle

who stepped down over the handling of a Newsnight investigation in

North Wales. I don't doubt that there will be resignations. Those

there will be resignations. Those people who should have been the

conduit for what was happening on Newsnight through to top management

have failed and that is obvious, but the BBC Trust, app which was

this relatively new organisation which was constructed to oversee

the BBC and to ensure its standards remained high, that has failed as

well so it would not surprise me if Lord Patten resigns. That was Kim

Howells. Let's get a perspective from North East Wales. The former

journalist who worked on covering the inquiry can skate is with us.

Let's gather your reaction to George Entwistle's resignation and

comments from Kim Howells. Clearly there were dreadful shortcomings in

journalism within the Newsnight team but to be quite honest, I am

more concerned with getting to the truth of child abuse in North Wales

than I am at looking at the management structure of the BBC. We

have seen something of a shift in focus from looking at abuse victims

to people who were wrongly accused. We will only get to a satisfactory

position where we get to the truth and deliver justice by an open

publication of the report. Do the revelations over the past 48 hours

of mistaken identity, do they do anything to undermine the enquiries

the Prime Minister has initiated? No, they must continue. My fear is

that what is happening with the BBC at the moment and there will be

subsequent attacks on the BBC, but my fear is that journalists may be

more timid in the way they pursued proves regarding child abuse. It

may harm the prospects of people who were abused coming forward with

essential information, but the inquiries must go ahead. The Prime

Minister has initiated a review of the inquiry to see whether terms of

reference were wide enough and whether they were interpreted in

the right way. If that review concludes there were shortcomings

then a Hills borough model type of inquiry is necessary. The public

must have faith in that inquiry and witnesses and abuse victims must be

able to trust it. But you are an Assembly Member for the area up

where much of the abuse took place. What are people saying there and

what have they been saying to you Passions are running high. People

want the truth. We are living in a world very different to wear the

Waterhouse inquiry took place. We now have the internet. People who

were not connected to what happened here are now being linked to people

filling in the missing pieces. It is essential this issue is

investigated fully because otherwise people will not get the

justice they deserve and people who are innocent may be wrongly

connected to child abuse. You say we live in a different time Cup. I

know you have proposed legislation to deal with helping those who come

out of care. What does the fact that you have to bring that

legislation say about how we as a society treat people in care to

this day? I think collectively we all need to put our hands up and

say, we failed collectively. Media, politicians, people in that in the

past 10 years there have been concerns about the original inquiry

but we did not act on them and that is because we have a feast to

famine mentality when it comes to children in care. We give large

focus to scandals and then children in care are left without any media

focus and without sufficient attention by the public. We need to

move to a situation where we are determined to ensure that the

children who may not be our own but carrying care are looked after

properly and protected. The scheme I have been working with will

extend the rights of care children beyond the age of 18-21, to insure

the sort of lifestyle but your children all mine may enjoy can be

extended as well to those who are in care. Stay with us. Jonathan

Evans, it is something that Ken touched on, the reference to the

Waterhouse report. At the time you were a minister in the Wales office,

those terms of reference were being drawn up, questions about the

suitability of them now. A lot of nonsense has been talked about that

by I agree with Ken that in order to deal with that challenge that

has been raised, the Prime Minister was right to announce that two

inquiries. First a police inquiry in that anyone who has any

allegation in relation to child abuse brings that to the attention

of the police and that we undertake a detailed inquiry into that. The

second part is the judicial review of the terms of the Waterhouse

inquiry. I am disappointed that over the last week, in the course

of this feeding frenzy, I have seen people call into question the

integrity of Lord Waterhouse. The inquiry was a public one. More than

200 people who made complaints of abuse were before the inquiry and

in fact many of them represented. Steve Messham, and I must say he is

the real victim in all of this, no one is in any doubt that he was

abused but what is the situation now in which a programme has been

broadcast in which it is claiming he has identified this person. The

more you look into that, the more concerned there will be.

Director General has resigned over the news nice story that you speak

about. You were in government with Chris Patten, Crim how waltz, he

suspects that he will resign. may see a situation like that but

it is premature to be talking about it now. The BBC needs leadership at

this time and I observed George Entwistle's performance yesterday,

I did but I listened to extracts of it and I think he did the right

thing in resigning because there was no bromide in those interviews

where he instilled confidence. -- confidence. At the end of the day

when we have seen the results of the inquiry into what happened with

journalism in this case and that matters in terms of journalism are

put in a better front at the BBC, BBC Newsnight, I found over the

course of the last week that BBC Wales followed up with drawn

dealings, some of the more fanciful things that were being said about

his report. That is Canice -- classic journalism. Someone makes

an allegation and a journalist checks it out. BBC Wales has shown

much more journalism skill and standards than has been the case on

Newsnight. This is not an attack on the BBC. It is the fact that the

very top programmes, but does appear to be failings. Chris Patten

spoke about the need to restore trust in the BBC. Is it that led to

suggest the public may have lost trust in the BBC and what is the

damage that that could cause? think the opinion polling that has

been done about the BBC suggests there has been a damage to trust.

That is serious because I am a strong supporter of the BBC as a

public broadcaster and his reputation is something all of us

all to be concerned about. I have been reflecting on this and I was

asking myself why is it I find myself turning to the world's

surface of the BBC to hear the news rather than domestic broadcasters

and the answer is if you listen to the World Service, you get

journalism that reports the News and explains it but does not see

itself in the business of trying to make news. They Newsnight programme

was a good example of this. You see BBC journalism tipping into wanting

to create a news agenda rather than reporting it. In his Knights case

there was an investigation and sometimes as a result it does

create the news. Is there a danger that those kind of investigations

now in the wake of what has happened could be put on the back-

burner and we will not seek such important ones being undertaken?

There is absolutely a proper role for decent, a genuine investigative

journalism, properly carried out, down to the high standards. When

that tips into something that haste to try and create a news agenda, or

where you stop doing those basic checks and you wind up in the

position that Newsnight found itself in. The BBC did not do the

investigated journalism here, they outsourced it to the Bureau of

investigative journalism and the journalist who reported on it was

someone involved with Steve Messham. Hardly was the most independent

person. When we have done the inquiry we will find that is

probably one of the major flaws but it is not good enough to sate a --

for Newsnight to say we have a few pals here, in this organisation,

let's put this as the front piece... The BBC should get back to

investigated journalism but do it itself and not a source it took the

shadow we organisations. Ken, you covered some of the proceedings of

the Waterhouse inquiry. Do you think it does need looking at

again? I do believe we need to look at it again and people are

demanding it and the only to those victims. With regards to the media

I have concerns that some of the most fragile people are being

mistreated. We need to be careful with how we deal with those he who

were abused. It is incredibly important that we do not just put

them in front of a camera and I have real concerns in the

environment we live in these days with very aggressive journalistic

methods, that people could be very hurt. Journalist need to approach

this in a very sensitive and dispassionate way, that is very

difficult but it needs to be done if we are to reach the truth of the

matter. Jonathan Evans, we know George and was a has resigned. This

story has been in the news everywhere for a whole week and

repeated across other networks never mind just the BBC. Is there

any shoot there? No one comes out of this well. The Prime Minister

was right to set up those two inquiries. I Marseilles as well his

very firm an angry response to Philip Schofield when he engaged in

that stand in front of the cameras, that... No one has applauded the

Prime Minister for the way he dealt with that. ITV have twice apologise

for the fact that someone might have been able to see the list.

They might have ended up in court over it and yet ITV said that as

far as they are concerned, the incident is closed. I might have

strong reservations about journalistic standards on Newsnight

but they are as nothing compared to the arrogance of ITV in saying that

they are not prepared to look further at what happened to Philip

Schofield behaving in that appalling manner. Can is

gesticulating. Just briefly mentioned the Prime Minister. It is

essential that all party politics is removed from this. It is too big,

important an issue to have party politics coming into it. The real

test will be as a consequence of the review into the Waterhouse

inquiry whether the prime minister will authorise a Hill's poor start

inquiry into abuse in the UK. you. This Thursday is polling day

to choose Wales and England's first police and crime commissioners

there will be four commissioners in well with the aim of holding the

police and chief constables to account. For the last time, the new

commissioners will said local crime fighting priorities and control

budgets. They will make the police accountable not to run policing. In

recent weeks we have featured the Brent, north Wales police forces.

This week week go to Dyfed Powys. The Dyfed Powys... A big rural area

with a relatively small population of about 500,000. We are

consistently lower crime levels and elsewhere, recorded crime fell 1%

in the year to June. Its budget is Wales's smallest, �95 million. By

2015, cuts of 12 million are needed. 55 Police officer posts are going

but there will be 66 additional community support officers. Band D

council tax payers pay �198 a year for the police. Just two candidates

are standing. It is a head-to-head between the Conservatives and

Labour. The Conservative candidate is Christopher Salmon, a former

soldier. Crime happens on the streets in our community so that is

where we need the police. We need to focus on the areas that are

particularly bad to make the most of the resources. We need to

protect people and that means tackling crime is that make

people's lives difficult. Stan been for Labour is Christine weather, an

ex AM and agricultural minister. People will vote for me as an

experienced campaigner and I will campaign on their behalf. Someone

who listens to what communities need and make things happen for

them. Someone who is used to holding large institutions to

account. Voting is days away on Thursday 15th November. If you go

to our online pages, you can find out more details about candidates

for all four of the Welsh police forces.

It is not just the police commissioner elections this

Thursday. There was also by election. It has been caused by the

decision of Alun Michael to stand down so he can run for Police

Commissioner. It has been in Labour hands for 30

years and in that time, Cardiff South and Penarth has had only two

MPs. Stephen Doughty is the man striving to be its third Labour MP.

Labour had a bath of 4,700 votes over the nearest rivals in the last

general election but the Conservatives did narrow the gap

last time and Cardiff councillor Craig Williams will be trying to

make further inroads. Nick Clegg joined the Lib Dem candidate on the

campaign trail. The party has targeted parts of this constituency

traditionally but the Lib Dem MP candidate task is to improve on its

third place last time. Taking a break Plaid Cymru are saying they

are taking a break. They claimed they are on the up. There was more

information on nine. You will also find details about the UK

Independence Party, the Green Party, Socialist Labour and the Communist

Party of Great Britain who are also fielding candidates.

Time for a look back at some of the The Welsh Government agreed a deal

with Plaid Cymru to ensure its budget for the next year is passed

with only half the 60 seats in the Chamber, the Labour administration

cannot pass a budget alone. Clyde will abstain war of the crucial

vote. They have of Minister Les Leigh Griffiths is considering

setting tougher targets for the ambulance service to respond to

emergencies. She announced the review which will

also look at the way the service is one and his relationship with

health boards. Under inquiry into the future of

dairy farming was opened by MPs on the Welsh Affairs Select Committee

as they left London for Aberystwyth. They are looking across Bordeaux

World Connectivity. They gathered evidence on this as revealed on a

Tweet. The committee a getting first-hand experience on mid-Wales

transport problems. We have been delayed in Birmingham.

Those politicians delayed in Birmingham, we are glad to see both

of ours in the studio. The police commissioners elections - a dare

raise major concern about what kind of turnout we will see. I am sure

you have been trying to convince people to vote. What are people

saying to you? I have been out there knocking on doors, Labour had

never wanted these police commissioners but they will be

there doing a serious job so we have been trying to persuade people

to get out there and vote but the level of understanding about the

election on the doorstep is very low indeed. Beware the thought that

it was a sensible idea to hold this election in the middle of November

really did not read the most basic textbooks of politics. I was

looking at the weather forecast and it did look quite nice and crisp

this Thursday but on the point that Mark makes, Labour did not want

them, he does not think people will vote, what do you think? It does

seem a staggering number of my parliamentary colleagues wanted to

stand as candidates. My view is we have always had police authorities.

People did not realise they had politicians on police authorities.

This is to try and engage more people. Let's move on. Both of you

will have been this morning to remembrance services. It is

Remembrance Sunday. Coming up to the Sentry anniversary of the First

World War. A I was in the middle of Cardiff. It was a very sober and

dignified occasion. Very well- attended, very many people there.

It was a beautiful morning in which the stillness in the centre of

Cardiff was striking and the very thought false sense of people

reflecting on nearly 100 years. Jonathan, where were you? A I was

in north Cardiff and I have to say it is the biggest attendance I can

remember. We are not just looking at what happened in the first and