18/11/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Later in the programme, after a very poor turnout in the police

commissioner elections, there is an inquiry under way. We have launched

our own investigation and we have pulled an ant -- an MP in for

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2376 seconds

Hello and on Exposure: The Other Side Of Jimmy Savile, does voter

apathy undermine our newly elected police commissioners? -- on the

Sunday Politics Wales. And some encouraging news on

entrepreneur's. Joining me are the Environment Secretary and the

Farming Minister. Let's pick up on the debate -- the Labour MP Nia

Griffith and the Liberal Democrat AM Eluned Parrott. I think the

important point here is that there are many different types of

prisoners. Of course we all think of the worst possible type. I think

that on this issue we should be trying to go along with their --

the Court of Human Rights and saying, OK, maybe for some

prisoners it is appropriate but there is a huge difference. David

Cameron said it made him thick -- feel physically sick, the idea of

giving prisoners the boat. Do you agree? Not at all. We need to

consider this carefully and make sure it does not become a political

football. We are talking about people's fundamental human rights.

We as the country have always seen ourselves as been a protector of

Liberty's and we need to judge these issues carefully when our

colleagues in the European Court of Human Rights have made this

decision. We will be back with you very shortly. Before we hear from

our guests again, Wales has its first ever elected police

commissioners. We have Christopher Salmon as Dyfed-Powys, Winston

Roddick in North Wales, Allan Johnston in Gwent -- Ian Johnston

in Gwent and Alun Michael in South Wales. But what legitimacy do they

have after such a low turnout? I am speaking to the Conservative MP for

the Vale of Glamorgan, Alun Cairns. 85 % in the electorate have

rejected this. I don't accept that they have rejected it. I think

there is an issue to consider in terms of process. But the outcome

is that we have an elected police commissioner responsible for that

strategy, budgeting and within the police authorities in England and

Wales. Low democracy is better than no democracy. In the past we would

have had police authorities who were councillors from various local

authorities who were put on to a committee to help support the Chief

Constable. This now is direct electoral responsibility for one

individual as the commissioner in order to support the chief

constable. We know the Conservatives are -- off for this.

Labour were against it but they put candidates up all the same. Alan

Michael was very critical, even though he won, of the fact that

people did not know who the candidates were. Did you think that

was a mistake? We are having an inquiry into it. I think there

could have been a wider public debate. We need to look at the role

of the media. The fact that the election was taking place on

Thursday and one leading radio programme only had it as the 4th or

5th item in the news. There needs to be a wider debate about the role

of the media and newspapers and how parties could have paid -- played a

better part. But process is one element but the outcome is the most

important thing, where we have are directed lead -- directly-elected

commissioner responsible for the strategy of the police force and

the area. You must be disappointed that only 15 % of people turned out

to vote? It has been described as an embarrassment. Did you vote?

Certainly I did. What was disappointed by the turnout -- I

was. But the outcome is the most important. You can draw comparisons

with other elections that have taken place. The marriage London --

the mayor of London. The turnout was only 30 % when Ken Livingstone

was elected. When Boris Johnson was elected it was closer to 50 %. When

people understand what the responsibilities are, it is

something very different. Let's see what our guests thinks. -- think.

He was suggesting that people will learn to love the commissioners, is

it time to stop dwelling on the turn out? I think so. We have had

this debate, there will be a review and the Electoral Commission will

make some suggestions as to how they can improve, but I think these

commissioners are now in post, they have an opportunity to lead the

debate and the proof of the pudding is not in this -- in the size of

the turnout, it is in whether they do their job effectively. I know

that your OT -- your party opposed the establishment of the

commissioners. Will we be in a situation if Labour when the next

election that this will be the only ever election but police

commissioners? -- when the next election. We were certainly opposed

to the creation. People elect for Parliament and the council. People

have been telling me on the doorstep, we expect you to do these

jobs. People have been telling me, on principle, they have not been

going out to vote. They have been telling me from a practical point

of view they can't see how this role will work, with a Tory

Government intent on 20 % cuts to the police. A lot of people didn't

know anything about it. I think the voters are perceptive. We were

certainly speaking to people making a deliberate decision. They were

not just apathetic, they were actually choosing not to go, even

people who regularly vote. They said, I am not coming out for this

one. Other people chose to vote for independent candidate as a protest

against the politicisation of this role. I think it is important that

the Government takes on that message because frankly I think

people have very little faith in what the person is going to be able

to do, and that is why they didn't come out. An indictment there off

the model, if you like of police commissioners. Do you support the

model? I think it is perfectly acceptable to have elected

commissioners. I wouldn't want to see that politicised. If you don't

believe in the politicisation of the police force, I'm surprised you

party chose to stand candidates all across Wales. People are

intelligent, they have thought about it carefully and they have

gone out and elected in two cases independent candidates with

relevant background and experience, and that is the kind of

independence we want to see. some of them didn't even know it

was happening. The turnout was low in the by-elections as well and

people have a clear idea -- idea of what an MP does. Possibly having an

election in November, knocking on doors after dark when it is only

5:00pm to get the boat out, is very difficult. Alun Cairns suggested it

was the Lib Dems in Government that wanted a different date to be

elections so that people could vote for this election on its merits. So

blamed the Liberal Democrats for the November date? There are all

kinds of other elections -- opportunities they could have had

for elections. If you want to depoliticise the role and encourage

independents, having it on a different date is very important.

If you have read at the same time as a council election, the chances

are it will get swept up in the political Eilish Bath issues.

Labour took one of the four jobs available in Wales. Was there and

expansion from you do you would have done better? -- and

expectation from you. We didn't want to leave any candidates

unopposed. In Mid and West Wales, we only have one Labour MP out of

seven constituencies, three Conservative constituencies, and

yet we came out with thousands of votes. I think there is are real

tide turning now and people are getting fed up with this Government

and we may soon see a Labour victory. It seems that we have more

budding Lord Sugars and Donald Trumps in our next -- in our midst.

The Federation of Small Businesses says that measures put in place by

Ms -- by ministers have helped boost the number of entrepreneurs

but they say they want a review of the strategy of the Welsh

Government as it reaches the halfway stage.

A Britain's youngest aspiring entrepreneurs have come to London.

Teenage entrepreneurs are not just on our TV screens, they are also in

schools up and down the country. For 50 years the charity Young

Enterprise has been running programmes in schools to enter --

to encourage entrepreneurs of the future. In Wales last year 150

student companies were set up. Pupils from Year 11 at this school

won awards from Young Enterprise last year for designing and selling

products. As long as you have a product and you work behind it and

genuinely believe that anybody could do it with the writer Manta

determination. There are a lot of skills I have developed and picked

up, interpersonal skills, team leading skills, decision-making

skills, all of which, I think, along with many more, will be

transferable to whatever I do in the future. For the annual

entrepreneurship Monitor report shows increasing interest in the

early stages of launching a business. Entrepreneurship

increased from 8 % to just over 6 % -- under 6 % last year in Wales.

Increasing numbers of young people in Wales are showing an interest in

business as well. At the University of Wales in Newport that recognise

the importance of small and medium- sized businesses as the engine of

the Welsh economy. They are hosting a series of events for budding

business people as part of global entrepreneurship week. Some

students wanted to learn about the creative side -- in the business

side of the creative Indus -- industries. I wanted to talk about

employing people, all of that kind of stuff, the nuts and bolts of

business. I have realised that it is important -- possible to start

out if you have the willpower and determination. And the Welsh, is

investing almost �4 million a year in youth entrepreneurship and other

funds are available slot -- available. The five-year strategy

has been broadly welcomed and some would like the Assembly to get more

involved. The Welsh Government has done some excellent work and it is

delivering to an extent in Wales. We would like to see a detailed

progress report from perhaps the National Assembly committee to see

how it is delivering, what targets are being met and what outcomes are

being delivered. The team who won her the young entrepreneurship

award last year are developing a game for the international market.

I do feel that they definitely needs to be more help because so

many people are coming out of university now and they are

qualified, skilled people and they are not having the opportunity to

use their skills. The company is one of a falling number of

enterprises set up in Wales over the past five years. Confidence

seems low according to the monetary report. It found that less than 18

% in Wales thought they were good opportunities for starting a

business in the next six months. Across the UK it was almost 28 %.

There are no doubt of the positive results of the enterprise but

confidence in on goal and support is important if we want the young

people of today to be the businesspeople of tomorrow are. --

ongoing support. There was a call for the committee to look at the

strategy. I think it would be an excellent idea and perhaps we could

suggest it. It is wonderful to see so many young people going into

setting up their own business. What worries me a little is that we give

them encouragement to do so, but how much support do we give them to

continue the business and make that kernel of an idea successful long-

term business? If the Welsh economy is to get a boost but I think

everybody agrees it needs, the private sector needs to improve its

out but. Is harnessing this entrepreneurship at a young age the

way to do it? It is very important of his three and over the years

there have been very many initiatives to bring business

initiatives into schools but the new generation needs similar input

and the important thing is now but with the jobs growth in Wales Fund

we have concentrated on the private sector. Over half of the posts

being offered to young people are in the private sector and there is

another section of them specifically for young

entrepreneurs and I think you need both. The real difficulty I see at

the moment is the macro economic system in the UK makes it very

difficult for any business to make headway. It is a great thing that

the Welsh Government is putting money into boosting industry, very,

very important, that boost for the private sector, and it is very

important that we are getting young people involved in their own

businesses and in the private sector. We will leave it there for

now. Before we move on we will have a quick look at some of the

political events of the last week in 60 Seconds.

Alan Michael's decision to successfully stand for Police

Commissioner meant there was a by- election on Thursday in his former

constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth. Labour confidently held

onto the seat, increasing the pet - - a share of the vote by 8 %,

although there was a disappointing turnout of 25 %.

Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Ward, who currently has a regional seed, said

she would stand for a constituency at the next Assembly election. She

said it was a risk worth taking. The First Minister said have -- the

Welsh governor did not interfere with a report about an NHS

reorganisation in North Wales which was rewritten to be more positive.

Alan Jones said he had confidence in the national clinical forum

which advises health wards. A critical assessment was redrafted

after being submitted. Those are some of the political

stories of the past week. Let's look forward, though. Joining us to

help us do that his political editor Betsan Powys. We are looking

to the Silk Commission report. Many people at home will have their

Riyaz bricking up. It is looking at ways to make the Welsh Government

more accountable for the money it spends. What can we expect to hear?

It was set off by the then Secretary of so -- Secretary of

State for Wales with the words accountability bringing in areas.

It is under the -- under the chairmanship of Paul Silk,

considering how Wales ought to be funded in the future. Or two to be

accountable for raising some of the money it spends? -- should it be

accountable. Looking at what it says about the smaller taxes, but

the page everybody will want to get to is the tax that affects

everybody, impact -- income tax. heard from Alun Cairns earlier in

the programme. I talked to him about the Silk report. This is what

he had to say. If there is a suggestion of tax varying powers,

it needs to reflect the majority of people. The First Minister has

called for some of the most obscure taxes, for which there would not be

transparently -- transparency. It if -- if it affects any politician,

the public would think long and hard before changing. We can't say,

we need more money because we need to spend it on whatever service it

might be. 200 pages to read tomorrow when this is published.

What we be looking out for? I will be looking for the tax varying

powers. It is important for a mature democracy to have the

ability to do these things and take responsibility for the actions that

they take. That is a thing we will be looking for and we definitely

expect or hope to see some of the minor taxes devolved. Nia Griffith,

this was a committee set up by the UK Government. Obviously the Labour

Welsh Government will have to react to it. That presents some

challenges, doesn't it? important thing is that where the

Silk Commission might decide it is possible and practical to devolve

some tax raising powers, the key thing will be in the negotiation

with what happens about the Barnett formula. What is crucial is that we

don't lose out here in Wales so that if we are contributing more

from one pot we must make absolutely sure that we are then

not short-changed in other ways. That will be the crucial discussion

following this, how it will work out in practice. For no discussion

is complete without a mention of the format -- the Barnett formula!

When we saw the All Wales can pensioner couple of weeks back,

there was a referendum. When we get this report tomorrow, what happens

then? They will be talking about this for some years hence but what

will happen straight after is that everybody will turn to the First

Minister and say, OK guys, what is your take on this, what are you

going to do about this? How do we get there in terms of what you put

in place in the borrowing powers? What is your plan now that you have

seen what the Commission has told you? We will be turning to the page

that explains about a referendum. Will the Commission say that there

should be a referendum first? Eluned Parrott, do you think a

referendum would be necessary? Possibly so, and hopefully not in

November. In terms of tax-varying powers, obviously it is a major

issue, a far more significant issue than the last referendum. There

would be questions if we didn't have a referendum at that time.

Nia Griffith, do we need a referendum on the question of

income tax? If we are going to make such a big decision, clearly people

will want a say. I think it is an academic argued to say that we

don't have to, but clearly do politics tells you that it would be

pretty cute -- pretty remarkable if we didn't have one. This report has

been long in the making. How do you feel a day before a report like

this, is it like a cup final? are looking forward to what the

detail has to say. We have all made submissions and asked them to look

at different things and it will be interesting to see how the

representatives of all four parties have worked together to produce a

single report. Cup-final day, not quite that excited. Nia Griffith,

we have your marker pens at the Cork -- at the ready? Yes, we need

to look at the detail and the practicality. For those that might

be disappointed that the Silk Commission will is published

tomorrow, there is part to, isn't there? Yes, and I will have my

marker pen out. It will consider further constitutional change and,

given the big changes on the UK wide level, where does Wales fit

into that? Thank you very much for coming in this lunchtime. Betsan

Powys will be back for the Wales report tonight on BBC One Wales