09/12/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Later in the programme, increasing resistance to antibiotics could

lead to more illness and more deaths, according to the doctor

responsible for managing the drugs affect us in Wales. --

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2118 seconds

Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales we hear fears that the

increasing resistance to antibiotics could lead to more

illness and more deaths. And we also hear fears over the cost and

availability of insurance for people with properties in flood

areas. Joining me throughout today's programme are two Assembly

Members - Labour's Mark Drakeford and Plaid Cymru's Jocelyn Davies.

We'll talk in a moment but, first, the Cynon Valley MP, Ann Clwyd,

says she intends to meet with campaigning organisations to see

how she can help raise nursing standards in "compassion and care".

Earlier this week, she described how her late husband died "like a

battery hen" because of what she called bad nursing. Speaking on the

Andrew Marr show this morning, the Labour MP said she'd been contacted

by hundreds of people who've suffered similar experiences. She

read out one of the emails she'd received.

I must agree with you, the nursing profession is no longer the caring

profession. When I sat at my husband's bedside, I did why --

wonder why some of the nurses bothered to put on their uniforms.

The arrogance and indifference of some left me bewildered. Mark, You

watcher of the Assembly's health committee. You hear from nurses and

patients all the time. Is this picture one that you recognise?

any individual who has experienced ill-treatment or indifference, it

is an experience that stays with you for a very long time after that.

If you think whether -- if you're asking whether I think that his

general, no, it is not. I think the nurses who work in the health

service in Wales are by and large very dedicated, very hard-working,

and do their very best to provide a service that people will recognise

and value. There will be occasions when that does not happen. But

anybody who comes across those occasions will be marked by it.

When people like Ann Clwyd are raising these points, they need to

be looked into, don't they? Yes, they do. I agree with a Mark, but

with my experience of the health service, I have not come across

that. Everybody has been fabulous. But if you are in a situation with

a relative and somebody is indifferent or arrogant, it can be

very wounding. It is probably a tiny minority that they need to be

dealt with. I agree in part with Ann Clwyd, that we do need to do

something about that tiny minority because it is not acceptable.

is this issue of compassion in nursing, which was raised at

Westminster last week, is it something your committee could look

at in the future? We look at it almost all the time because in

almost any inquiry that we do, we recently completed a one-day

inquiry into diabetes care where nurses are very much in the front

line providing services. We hear about this issue regularly. Nurses

will tell you that it is often a matter of being given the time to

do the job, the pressure they feel under in a very busy health service

with there are a lot of demands on them. Maybe it is the system we

need to look at rather than thinking it is a few people getting

it wrong. We'll stay with health matters.

Increasing resistance to antibiotics could lead to more

illness and more deaths, according to the doctor responsible for

managing the drugs' effectiveness in Wales. Dr Robin Howe from Public

Health Wales told this programme that it's imperative that

clinicians and patients understand that antibiotics can only be used

when they will have the maximum benefit. Here's Brian Meechan.

Since their arrival in the 1940s, antibiotics have been on the front

line of Medicine's battle against disease but experts are warning

that they are becoming increasingly ineffective at a rate that is

alarming and irreversible. Some say that time may be coming when we

have to think about life after the drugs that revolutionised medicine.

Robin Howe is the doctor who has the task of minimising guessing

Wales that are caused by thugs developing a resistance to

antibiotics. Each year in Wales, if there are about 2,000 bloodstream

infections caused by a e.coli. That is the, the scores of the

bloodstream infections across the UK. --, nest. It is a very serious

infection because one-in-five people who have a restrain

infection with that Burke will die and so an increase in those

infections is an extremely serious problem. Resistance to antibiotics

has seen increasing in Wales over the last seven years. There are now

superbugs like MRSA that are immune it to the drugs. For more

antibiotics are used, the more likely it is that any that you Rea

will evolve to build up a resistance to them. One expert from

Cardiff University, Professor Les Baillie, he describes it as an arms

race between those developing drugs and the bacteria developing

resistance. He says it is a race we are losing. If I hate to say we are

heading back to the pre- antibiotic days. People are trying to develop

strategies of controlling the antibiotics they used so they

always have something in reserve. It would be horrendous if we ever

came to the situation where there was nothing left in the cupboard as

it were. We have been very lucky in the UK with the industry developing

new antibiotics to fight in different ways and different

organisms. Off but as they evolve, it gets harder. To develop

antibiotics from concept to market takes millions of pounds and at

least 10 years. For Surgeon Rhidian Morgan-Jones says there are real

concerns about medicine after antibiotics. A You are going back

to the last century with, before antibiotics, or you had to do was

lance boils, drained of us and put people in bed for rest. If if F but

researchers going on into whether traditional remedies could be the

next week to battle for bugs. also work on tea. It may surprise

people to know that tea contains compounds which has been shown to

have health benefits, some of which is its ability to kill micro-

organisms. In a particular project here, we have been looking at tea

as a source of drugs to treat C. Difficile oath. Whatever is

developed in the future to tackle disease experts say it is clear

what has to be done now. Overall, the issue is a trying to educate

the public and health professionals so that antibiotics are only used

appropriately when they can have a proper effect. While some doctors

and some patients may become accustomed to using antibiotics as

a cure for all ills, half the message from experts in the field

is that it presents dangers for the future. Using them more sparingly

could literally be a matter of life and death.

Jocelyn, that is quite a stark warning from Brian. A matter of

life-and-death if we keep our -- handing up these antibiotics.

ates 60 or 70 years ago that people did not have antibiotics so people

regularly died of things like pneumonia and TV. My own husband

had pneumonia a couple of years ago and he had antibiotics

intravenously. We do want to go back to the days when people

routinely died of those conditions -- we don't want to go back. My GP

says, if I treat you, it will last a week, if I don't treat you, it

will last seven days. Sometimes we have got to accept that some things

have got to run their course. any issue that we have free

prescriptions in Wales, much vaunted by some sides of the

Assembly and not by the other ones, is it an issue as to why doctors

might be more happy to write out a prescription for antibiotics?

don't think free prescriptions come into the picture at all. Off places

that don't see free prescriptions C antibiotic use rising to the same

extent they have in Wales. We are very lucky in Wales to still have a

national independent public health service that is able to do this

sort of work we have just seen in that report. In England, the Public

Health Service has been torn up and thrown to the four winds. I

sometimes argue in the Assembly that regard something that is going

on in England we should be glad we are not affected by in Wales is a

mistake because what is happening over there will have an impact on

things in Wales as well. How will that make a difference to this

reliance on antibiotics? We would not have the information and the

warnings we have just heard if we did not have a National Health

Service able to do that research and draw the conclusions we have

heard about. What they are saying this is not very new, in fact. The

last report will be 10 years old next year. It is important that

people take greater responsibility in shaping their own health and

part of that does mean recognising that expecting to have a

prescription and antibiotics is not always the best answer for you.

for the rest of us because this affects everybody. The resistance

in the bacteria is going to affect us also in the future, perhaps

people who have at transplants will be able to have the antibiotics

they need for the rest of their lives. Mark mentioned it featured

in a prominent report 10 years ago but we are hearing the same message

now. When will the message it home? The guidelines need to be tougher,

GPs need to be tougher, and patients need to be turned away if

that is what they are requesting. But aren't GPs going to be

concerned about that? If they send a patient away and something

terrible happens. The consequences are dire and GPs, it is their

responsibility to the patient in front of them and to society in

general to make sure that this miraculous drug is not misused.

A senior Welsh Conservative MP is warning many Welsh householders

could face higher insurance costs or no cover at all unless there is

an urgent agreement between the UK Government and the insurance

industry over flooding. Jonathan Evans says he fears that without a

deal, Welsh homes could be left without cover and many more

householders see their premiums rise. Adrian Browne reports.

Six months ago, hundreds of homes and businesses in many parts of

Ceredigion were flooded. This week, the clean-up operation carries on

in Denbighshire after last week's devastating floods. Householders

are now wondering if they will face higher insurance costs or no cover

at all with talks between the UK government and the insurance

industry at a standstill. It is going to cost an arm and a leg. I

am just worried about getting insurance of any kind in the future.

It is a problem and we have all been talking over breakfast this

morning in her various hotel establishments that we have been

put in by the insurance companies. I think they are going round in

circles for a long time before thrashing out the details and

reaching an amicable decision. At the end of the day, the people are

going to lose out are the people who live in these areas. The Welsh

MP who chairs a cross-party group on the insurance industry says

talks are vague talk of great frustration. The talks have been

going on for more than two years. The current policy is going to

expire, nobody is anticipating a getting renewed, but the government

and the industry must come to an urgent agreement. The reason is

that the people who are at risk of flood, if not of those people being

in Wales, a quarter of a million houses across the UK, they are

probably paying half of what the real risk of flood is. They face a

potential doubling of their premiums unless this gets sorted

out. Under the existing agreement, Insurers provide cover for higher-

risk properties while the UK government continues to fund

improved flood defences. Ministers have rejected a proposal from the

Association of British Insurers to set up a fund to which the Treasury

will provide a temporary overdraft for the insurance industry to help

it meet the cost of emergencies in the first few years of a new scheme

while the fund bills or. Speaking in the Commons this week, the

environment secretary told MPs talks with the industry were

ongoing. We want to achieve a better system of insurance which

provides the affordability, as comprehensive a system as possible,

which is not a huge burden on the taxpayer. Negotiations continue and

that all is currently in this court. The Association of British Insurers

told this programme that those talks were at an impasse. But they

were keen to work with the UK government. In a statement they

said customers were increasingly worried about flood cover and it

was important to try to find a way forward and that it was vital that

Insurers and government tackle this issue together. The Conservative MP,

Jonathan Evans, says he is concerned the UK government did not

want to be part of any future scheme and it will be left to the

industry to sort out with everybody, whether they are affected by

flooding or not, paying extra. of those people may be quite poor

people and for them to be asked to pay �30 more for their policy in

order to make sure that flood risk can be covered for some people who

may be wealthy in flood risk areas, people say that is not fair either.

But the worst of all art comes would be one in which there is no

agreement and the Industry says in June, that is it, if market forces,

we are going to work out what your risk is because anybody watching

this programme who has been affected by floods in Wales should

know that the consequence of that is a potential of doubling their

costs. Back in North Wales, it is not just about seeking guarantees

over the availability of insurance in the future, they want to

guarantee they will not be flooded again.

Jocelyn, that was an ominous warning. If it is not solved in a

month and a half, people in Wales, what he's saying, are going to be

hit harder in the pocket. They will because they were not have

insurance or it will be very expensive. We need to have

Investment in flood defences, that is obvious, but they -- but what

they were saying is that there isn't -- if there is not an

agreement with the UK government, the cost will be spread among

absolutely everybody which could mean 20 or �30 a year. That might

mean other people might not be able to a 4th their insurance. This is

something the UK government needs to sort out as a matter of urgency.

We have seen the main flooding in Wales over the last six months, in

Mid Wales and in North Wales. You were telling the earlier that your

house price seven feet away from being flooded back in 19 79th --

house was 7 ft away. We have seen a lot of it in the last six months.

It lives for a long time after with you when the cameras have gone and

the news agenda is somewhere else. But the important thing here is

that there is a deal on the table. We herded in the report. The

insurance industry is offering a know -- non-profit-making scheme.

They need the Government to underwrite at in the very early

stages while the fund builds up just in case there is a 2007 tier

event in that early period. The problem is, if that government is

full of market fundamentalists. They really don't believe in

pooling risk in the way that insurance systems rely on. Mr

Patterson is on one edge of that spectrum. He is for the government

at Westminster to look at that deal. It seems to me a pretty good deal.

It will protect people against risks which they themselves are not

responsible for and which individually they simply cannot do

anything to avoid. I read a press release from the Vale of Clwyd

Assembly Member, Ann Jones, saying people should take up loans from

Credit Unions because in North Wales she was fearful that loan

sharks would be going around people's homes. That is another

issue. People are going to have to borrow in order to pay their

insurance. I think there are around 42,000 households in Wales that are

affected. Her constituency has been particularly affected. We want

people to have cover I think this is something the UK government

should get sorted because it is a horrible thing to deal with. You

won't be able to move because he will not be able to sell your

property. It is not your fault, but it does seem flooding is something

we will be facing every single year. Time now for a quick look back at

some of the political stories of the week in 60 seconds.

In the final First Minister's Questions of the year, can Wyn

Jones said he put forward a complaint against S4C in which a

character criticised the Welsh Government decision not to cull

badgers. He faced accusations of censorship and heavy handedness

over and issues -- an issue which was a soap opera in itself

according to the Conservative leader. Assembly Members are being

recalled during their Christmas break after they were unable to

agree new rules on council tax benefits. There were angry scenes

with the Welsh ministers failing to consult on proposals that will

affect more than 300,000 households. And with Christmas on its way, Mike

German took centre stage for Parliament choir.

We want to well on Mike German's singing voice. Last Wednesday, put

her review will have been in the chamber witnessing those angry

scenes I just describe, or thinking you may be heading off for a few

weeks of rest over the Christmas period. You are going to be back a

week when State to try and resolve this situation over council tax. It

is not ideal. It is not. I thought the Conservative Party in the

Assembly were very much at fault. thought you might. They definitely

were not interested in putting the interests of the 330,000 families

who rely on council tax at the forefront of their minds. They

don't feel the government had acted quickly either full staff they were

relying on a procedural set of arguments. Her I thought Jocelyn

got it exactly right. She was arguing we should have been allowed

to discuss the substantive issue. She may not have agreed with the

government that she wanted to get the -- past the procedural nonsense.

That is what we ought to have done. Had you been able to discuss it, do

you think you could have saved yourself a trip back to Cardiff?

don't mind coming back on 19th December, I object to being

expected to vote for something that has not been explained to me. I did

speak in the debate. Why do you think that happened? The ministers

did not try to get support for it? We have been asking since last

March to have details of the scheme. He has been more interested in

having a row with Westminster over this because if you have got

330,000 households relying on youth to get something in place by the

end of December, I think it could have been given a bit more effort.

I was all for having the debate, I don't think I would have supported

the regulations because they have not been explained to me. There is

a couple of issues there. The ministers tried to bully the

Assembly into it and was more interested in grandstanding than

having a fire with Westminster? Minister needed figures from

Westminster which she has tried to persuade them to provide. They

arrived at 5:15pm that afternoon. That is the pressure he has been

under. Now we will have a chance to have a proper debate on it.