13/01/2013 Sunday Politics Wales


13/01/2013

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Politicians and business leaders line up to warn David Cameron not

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to damage our relationship with the EU. Are they right? Should he

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lissnn a week when the government has been busy marking its own

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homework, we ask the community secretaries, Eric Pickles, when it

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comes to housing policy, it's a case of must try much harder. As

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violent protests continue in Belfast over the decision to cut

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the number of days the Union Flag flies above City Hall we will

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debate the decision and the significance of the riots, as two

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politicians at the heart of the controversy go head-to-head.

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Later in the programme.we hear a call for "strong political

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leadership" ahead of what's expected to be radical reforms for

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2534 seconds

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the National Health Service in Hello, and on the Sunday Politics

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Wales, the patients' watchdog, the Community Health Council, tells us

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that "strong political leadership" is needed ahead of a week where we

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should hear about proposals for what are expected to be radical

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changes to the NHS in some parts of the country.

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.Is the glass half empty or half full?

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What's the future looking like for the pub.

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Joining me throughout today's programme are Labour's Nia Griffith

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and the Conservative, Nick Ramsay. Welcome. Happy New Year. Let's

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start the programme on comments from the Labour leader, Ed Miliband,

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this morning, on Europe. He accused your party leader, David Cameron,

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on taking the country sleepwalking to a European exit. What do you

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think about those comments? I don't think David Cameron is sleepwalking

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anywhere. He is doing it wide-awake, is he? Whether you say sleepwalking

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or wide-awake, the fact is in are concerns there amongst the public

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about the future of the European Union. It's in a state of flux. We

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know about the economic situation. David Cameron is quite right to say

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to people at some point in the future there is the possibility of

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having a referendum on our membership and the type of

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relationship we have with the European Union. You mentioned there

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are concerns in the public. There are concerns within your party,

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aren't there? There Are concerns within my party. They are concerned

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about the threat of UKIP? There are concerns we represent the views of

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people out. There when I speak to my constituents there is no doubt

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at all that Europe is a concern of them. I don't think the

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Conservative Party would be honouring its responsibilities to

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the electorate if we didn't say, at some point, we think that you

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should be able to have a say on this. If there was a referendum,

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how would you vote? At the moment, I think that our interests of the

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United Kingdom are served by being in the European Union. That might

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be different at some point in the future. We have to look carefully

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at the implicationss for jobs, for our economy for not being part of

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the European Union. We need to look at the way it looks at the moment

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and our renegotiation. Nia Griffith, are you concerned that David

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Cameron is trying to take the UK out of the EU? What happened this

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week in Swindon, where we saw 80 jobs being lost at Honda. 800, I

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think? Sorry. 800. Is the reason why we really do need to be

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influencing what is happening in Europe. It's absolutely clear to me

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that in Europe, whether we are in the eurozone or outside the

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Eurozone we are influential we depend on marketing our produce and

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manufacturered goods to Europe. Now, if we are showing very silly side.

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We are, sort of, playing silly and sulking and walking off and turning

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our back, then other people in Europe are going to say - why

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bother with the UK? We will not have the influence we should have.

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My view is we need a very, very strong voice indeed in Europe. We

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need to be influencing because it is, at the end of the day, jobs for

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our people. We will be back with you shortly.

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The patients' watchdog, the Community Health Council, is

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calling for "strong political leadership" ahead of what's

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expected to be radical reforms of the NHS proposed next week.

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Hywel Dda in West Wales and the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board in

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North Wales will confirm details of their plans for hospital

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reorganisation next week. Brian Meechan begins his report

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from the Nurse Training Centre at the University of Glamorgan. The

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NHS is suffering. It's under pressure because of an increasingly

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elderly population and also the general cost of treating patience.

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Many clinicians say they find it difficult to provide the safest

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services at so many hospitals. All of this, at a time when NHS budgets

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are being cut that is why experts say we can no longer provide

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services the way we have always done. We have to change. If we

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don't change, we will end up in a perfect storm, as some people have

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said, but this actually gives us a really good opportunity to make a

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root and branch restructuring of the health service in Wales.

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know historically there are patients in hospital who do not

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need to be in hospital. By being in hospital they are increasing risks

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of other things happening to them. We need to ensure that only the

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patients who require hospital iedsation and require to go into

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hospital for tests -- hospital iedsation, actually go into

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hospital. Everyone else should be managed within the community, by

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primary care -- hospitalisation. In order to do that, we need shift

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resources so that both professionals, facilities and

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indeed the money needs to be focused more at primary care level

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and community care level. It has proven controversial in the past.

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Attempts to change how and where the NHS provide services have

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brought protesters on to the streets across Wales. We will see

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protests. People are protective of the NHS and protective of their

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local facilities. People have worked long and hard to have a

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national health service which they believe is quite precious. He says

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people need to look at what is being proposed and the Community

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Health Council is also warning politicians not just to jump on a

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were test bandwagon. It is a tough call for politicians, we recognise

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that, they have to look after the views and interests of their

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constituents. There is a statesman's job to be done. One of

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the strengths of, particularly in South Wales of the proposals, we

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are looking at things on a more regional basis. Sometimes that

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means compromises locally or difficult decisions locally. We

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think there is a real call for strong political leadership, and

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strong statesman-like behaviour from our politicians. The Community

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Health Councils say the re- organisation plans have been led by

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clinicians and also that communities have been widely

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consulted. There are still some tough decisions to be made. The

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patients body will go into negotiation with NHS managers. If

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they can't reach agreement, the Community Health Councils have the

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right to refer the decision to the Health Minister, Lesley Griffiths.

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Our aim is to work with health boards to make sure we can resolve

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issues locally and on a regional basis. We would prefer not to have

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to push decisions up to the minister. If we have to, we will

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have to. Even though Lesley Griffiths has, for a long time in

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this process, tried to keep her distance from what is going on,

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keep her distance from all the arguments, ultimately, it might be

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her that has to make the final call about what shape the NHS should be.

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Voters regularly say the NHS is a top priority when they go to the

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polls. Many of the hospitals affect ready in key constituencies, that

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makes any major reform not just a health issue, but a political one.

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Well, Nia Griffith, in West Wales I have seen pictures of you wearing a

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campaign T-shirt outside the Assembly campaigning against

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changes particularly in West Wales in your constituencies. Do you take

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on -- constituency do you take on board what was being said? It's

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important in the consultation part of the process local politician

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also speak up strongly for their local area. That is part of a

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consultation process and absolutely rightly so. You no, -- now, Hywel

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Dda are publishing plans but the board has not reported. We don't

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know what will happen in the rest of South Wales. The difficulty now

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is, whatever is decided by Hywel Dda, if it does have a knock-on

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effect on, for example, Morrison Hospital we need see what the plans

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are in South Wales, what the plans are, for example, about taking

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services from Neath Port Talbot Hospital to Morrison. We need see

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if the Hywel Dda proposals will have any additional work for the

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Welsh ambulance service. If that is the case, again if there is an

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initial resource requirement for the ambulance service, then that

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become as decision above and beyond just hd. When all those pieces of

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the -- Hywel Dda. When all those pieces of the jigsaw are available

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the minister will have to fit those together because it's above and

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beyond what Hywel Dda can do in it is own area. Likewise with Betsi

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Cadwaladr if that has implications for health boards. There is a

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political implication, isn't there, to any changes in your

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constituency? You have an election coming up, people might decide to

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vote against Labour if services in your area are changed, particularly

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the Accident & Emergency service there? It will be a difficult time

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for the minister. She will have to weigh up all the different

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possibilities. As far as we are concerned, we have the situation

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that we are the largest area of population, we are concentrated in

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one corner of the Hywel Dda area. If we were in the middle of the

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Hywel Dda area everything would be simpler. We need to look at

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imaginative ways in which things can be funded. We need to ask the

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questions as well about what sort of future do we want for our

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medical school in Swansea? Do we want lots of excellent places where

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students can train to get a home- grown population of doctors which

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will help us to staff hospitals better. Nick Ramsay, medical

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professionals particularly saying that the NHS needs changing. Is

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that something your party accepts? Reorganisation is necessary? No-one

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denies that the NHS has to change. Anyone who says something has to

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stay exactly as it is year after year is kidding themselves. The

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real problem here, I commend the approach of Nia Griffith for

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standing up for her constituents. The Welsh Labour government have

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taken money from the health service. The health boards are in the red.

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They are being forced through financial pressures to do this.

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They need to go back to the drawing board. That will not happen, is it?

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The nearer we get to an election the government will want this

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sorted out so it doesn't have an impact come election time? People

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want hospitals that are local and able to provide the services they

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want. I don't think they are too concerned about any problems that

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the Labour Party has with imminent elections. In south-east Wales in

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Gwent there haven't been problems. The proposals are pretty accepted.

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There is a way it can be done properly. Putting forward a

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bullying, one size fits all this is what we say your health service is

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going to look like, will not work. They need to reconsider and listen

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more to MPs like Nia Griffith. Health Minister said it will be the

:55:11.:55:21.
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health boards that make the decisions. Do you feel with the

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potential removal of Accident & Emergency that would be a

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downgrading of service? I travel up every week to Westminster. I have

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to tell people in Wales at least we have a government totally committed

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to the NHS. In England it's worse. You see the headlines about

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staffing levels in hospitals in England. That is the first and

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foremost thing to say. Secondly, of course any -- there is worry that

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something will be downgraded. We want to see the best. Until we have

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what comes forward on Tuesday, it's difficult to comment. We will leave

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it there for now. Thank you. Let's talk about UK government proposals

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to change the way the pub industry is run. The government announced

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plans for an independent adjudicator to help struggling

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landlords. One man who welcomed those changes is the Labour MP Ian

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Lucas. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. This morning, I

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think it still is. Early for a drink in the pub. Tell us, why do

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you consider so many landlords are struggling as this move suggests?

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It's been a very, very difficult decade for pubs. The arrangements

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that have been in place for their regulation have really not served

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either the brewing industry as a whole or our high streets or

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publicans. The pressure of the recession has also imposed

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additional burdens, but there are individual cases of pubs doing well.

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We had a regulatory regime to date that undermined rather than

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promoted pubs in our constituencies. I'm not sure if you will be able to

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hear me. Your ear piece has fallen out much I had will come to Nick

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Ramsay. Nick, what do you make of the changes proposed by Vince Cable

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this week, good news for pubs? Lucas has done good work on this, I

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have been doing something similar in the Assembly. Pubs are different

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to other businesses. There is no way that if people go into a pub

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and buying a pint of ale that should be treated in the same way

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as buying cheep alcohol in a supermarket. This is a good step.

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It will not be easy. Until we get round this problem, particularly in

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rural areas, of pubs closing we will not solve the problem at the

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heart of many of our communities. Can you hear us now? Yes. Sorry

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about that. Not your fault at all. The adjudicator idea has been put

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in place by the coalition government, are you disappointed it

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wasn't a Labour government able to put these in place? The proposals

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were put forward just before we left office. I am disappointed they

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weren't taken forward at that time. There is great pressure on

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governments not to regulate. The step take thn week, this government

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was also reluctant, was to take the step to regulate, we had an

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unbalanced system that the free market had provided where pubs were

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being forced out of business. It's a big step for the government to

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take to regulate much we were reluctant to d that. This

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government was reluctant to do that. I'm pleased to do -- say that we

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have done that now. We want to work within our communities to offer

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goot services to constituents and customers and prosper as businesses

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providing more work both in the pubs themselves, but also in a town

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like Wrexham, which has a brewing condition swrerks micro breweries

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developing. We want to create jobs there. We need to focus down in

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local communities and develop the brewing industry again as a

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business. There is a role for pub codes, isn't there? If somebody

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wants to buy their own pub they need enormous capital, which they

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may not necessarily have, the breweries can put them in business

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in terms of giving them a building, do you accept with this regulation

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that the pub codes have a role toll play? They have a role to play. We

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want it to be a fair role. That is where the regulator comes in, to

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see the conditions imposed by pub codes are fair, not just to the pub

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cos but the tenants who operate. We do need capital investment, but we

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need a balance -- balanced situation. I would urge everybody

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who is interested in pubs, whether they be publicans, customers, pub

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co's to get involved in this process so we get the framework

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right. Thank you very much for joining us. Sorry about the minor

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technical difficulty there. Nick Ramsay, he said he wanted people

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interested in pubs to get involved. I'm sure you are interested in

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pubs? I have had the odd interest over years. Do you feel perhaps the

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balance has shifted against the pub co's and the breweries in this

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instance and landlords will prosper if they are part of a pub co's?

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hope they can benefit. Over the 10 years with larger companies

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developing, if you want capital investment in a pub it is great.

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Some of the companies were taking tenants through as quickly as

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possible, getting as much rent as they could, at the end of the day

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the pub was closing anyway. I hope the government's move here will

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change that. In my own local pub, where I live, that's got new

:01:05.:01:10.

tenants now. They are doing well. They have managed to buy out part

:01:10.:01:15.

of the bar area. There are ways where a large company can own a pub,

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but the tenants can be given far more control over the day-to-day

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running of that. When that happens the situation is a lot better.

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Griffith, pubs particularly in town centres, they take up a lot of

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space, lots of buildings, if pubs are closing, like when shops close,

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they can be a blight on a town centre, can't they, and give the

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wrong impression. Do you think the decision taken by Vince Cable this

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week can, on an economic level, support pubs in local areas? It's

:01:45.:01:49.

very important of course because they are part of the local fabric.

:01:49.:01:53.

People come into towns for lots of different reasons. An opportunity

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to meet in a pub is very important. My worry is that the government

:01:56.:02:00.

will back slide again. They only brought forward the consultation

:02:00.:02:04.

this week because we forced the vote on it. You didn't take any

:02:04.:02:08.

action, did you, as Ian Lucas acknowledged there, when you were

:02:08.:02:14.

in government? We were set fo do so at the point of the election in

:02:14.:02:19.

2010. The problem has been that the change of government let it drop.

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I'm worried now that they don't take this through fully. We are

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asking for people not to be ed to the beer from one particular

:02:29.:02:34.

brewery, so they can bring in guest beers and have a choice and use the

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breweries in their areas. What is important is what comes out of this

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consultation, yes, indeed, please everybody contribute to it, what

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worries me more is that the government will delay on this and

:02:46.:02:50.

we will see more pub closures. The other thing we need is more

:02:50.:02:55.

stimulus for the economy. If people don't have the money to spend,

:02:55.:02:59.

there is no way pub ks thrive. would look at the tax on alcohol

:02:59.:03:05.

and beer in pubs. It's different buying beer there to buying it in

:03:05.:03:08.

the supermarket. There are other things beyond this great first move

:03:08.:03:14.

that could be done. Will you be contributing to this consultation?

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There are other people in it as well. There is a limit to my

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abilities. Yeah, we work with CAMERA and Drink Aware, it's a

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popular group. We will do what we can to make sure we get the best

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possible deal for our communities. You could have them as community

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centres, or if there isn't a Post Office, you could have a facility

:03:42.:03:46.

like. That a lot can be done, but this is a great first move.

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Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of

:03:50.:04:00.
:04:00.:04:00.

the week in 60 seconds. Welsh Secretary David Jones welcomed news

:04:00.:04:03.

that the electrification of the London to Cardiff rail line would

:04:03.:04:08.

be completed by 2017 with the extension to Swansea finished a

:04:08.:04:13.

year later. Updating could take until 2024. Opposition parties

:04:13.:04:18.

asked why a back to work scheme faced being a wound up a year early.

:04:18.:04:23.

The Welsh government wants to revoke �23 million of European

:04:23.:04:28.

funding after a review found it was under-performing. Opponents of a

:04:28.:04:33.

seven barrage told MPs that its impact on wildlife could be

:04:33.:04:43.
:04:43.:04:47.

devastating. The angling Trust said it would be 24/7 mincers. Ahead of

:04:47.:04:54.

the first, First Minister's Questions, the Plaid Cymru leader

:04:54.:05:04.
:05:04.:05:05.

said it was a pantomime show. Oh no she didn't. Oh, yes she did. Nick

:05:05.:05:11.

Ramsay - I didn't like that link. What did you make of what Leanne

:05:11.:05:15.

Wood had to say about First Minister's Questions? In terms of

:05:15.:05:19.

the electrification? Of it being an empty pantomime, the set up of it

:05:19.:05:25.

these days, is it working? think... I think it has worked in

:05:25.:05:29.

the past. I think it was more successful under Rhodri Morgan he

:05:29.:05:35.

tried to answer the questions. Too often, Carwyn Jones is trying to

:05:35.:05:38.

evade answers or trying to be clever answers. We don't want. That

:05:38.:05:41.

we are there to represent our constituents. We want an answer to

:05:41.:05:46.

a question. Even if it's an an answer which some people might

:05:46.:05:52.

think it's unpalatable, we have to have honesty in the Chamber. Have

:05:52.:06:01.

you got on -- a view on how it differs from the Commons Ours is

:06:01.:06:07.

fiesty and jostling. In the Assembly there is a calmer

:06:07.:06:11.

atmosphere that allows for longer, more detailed answers and let's

:06:11.:06:16.

people hear them, which is more you can sometimes have in the House of

:06:16.:06:23.

Commons. We don't havemics, you don't hear the background noise.

:06:23.:06:27.

Electrification, we heard from David Jones, plans put in place to

:06:27.:06:32.

suggest it is going to happen. You make the journey regularly. You

:06:32.:06:37.

welcome his announcement last week, I'm sure? I welcome the

:06:37.:06:40.

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