14/04/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

hear more Welsh tributes and and what more can be done to stop

the spread of the Swansea measles outbreak.

The former First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, described the late Baroness

Thatcher as a marmite politician, you either loved her or loathed her.

She was controversial, a hate figure for many but she also led the

Conservatives to their best ever election result in Wales,

transforming the country along the way with passionate support. As

we've heard already, the coming week sees her funeral, and the week just

passed saw tributes to her in Parliament. In the House of Commons,

there were tributes from party leaders. They say, cometh the hour,

come on the man. In 1979, came the hour and came the lady. She made

history, and let this be her epitaph, that she made our country

great again. Margaret Thatcher was a unique and towering figure. I

disagree with much of what she did but I respect what her death means

to the many people who admired her an eye on her personal

achievements. Tributes from a Welsh MP with an English constituency. She

did but I respect what her death means to the many people who admired

her an eye on her personal achievements. Tributes from a Welsh

MP with an English constituency. She's shared abuse power. Her fight

to tame trade unionism are testament to that innate understanding. And a

former secretary of state. A great lady, a huge personal achievement.

At its best, an achievement which breaks free from conservatism and

party dogma and showed the world that there is a better way, a

democratic way, a freedom loving way. But there were harsher words

from opposition MPs. She should be judged on her own terms, by whether

she did deliver harmony, whether she delivered hope. And I feel she

failed on those two counts. Margaret Thatcher did not bite for heavy

industry in the way she fought for the farming industry or the

financial industry. The result is a terrible one. In Wales, strong

support and fond memories of a woman dubbed by some the Celtic iron Lady.

Missions -- Mrs Thatcher shattered the glass ceiling because he proved

that a woman with intelligence, personality, strong determination

and willpower can achieve whatever they want with hard work. She did

that not by gift, but by sheer determination. She had regular

dealings and meetings with the then Prime Minister. It was rather like

taking an exam because you had to know your stuff and do your work!

You would ask your questions about your constituency, the work you were

doing, what you were planning to do, how things were in north Wales.

And then, after two hours, she looked at her watch and said, the

meeting is over. Shall we go upstairs? Would you like a copy or a

drink? So she changed. Suddenly, she became a Prime Minister in her own

home. People didn't see that side of her. They just thought she was quite

divisive. But remember, she was a woman in a man's world. In the 80s,

women in politics at it very hard, and she had a tough time because she

broke the mould of the Conservative party. She was a grocers daughter,

went to grammar school, got a scholarship, she had no silver

spoons. And she made it! Another former Welsh MEP has been vocal this

week. He spoke in Wednesday 's debate. He believes Baroness

Thatcher deserves recognition. important to recognise the strength

of character and personality and recognise she achieved a number of

things that this country, notably, the Falklands victory. At the same

time, we have to have a balanced picture and recognise that Mrs

Thatcher pursued extreme economic policies which had an awful impact

on places like south Wales, the ballot in particular. I well

remember the miners strike, in which she relished in taking on the miners

who, in my view, which is defending their jobs, families and

communities. In my view, no prime minister of our country should

declare a group of individuals like this. We have to have a balanced

picture of Margaret Thatcher. She was a notable prime minister, but

the many people, she will not be a great prime minister. On one thing

all politicians and commentators are agreed: We have witnessed the

passing of one of the most significant political figures in

British history. Opinions on Baroness Thatcher tend to be

polarised. The debate over her legacy will stretch along into the

future. He will be going to the funeral on Wednesday. It has been a

difficult week. People are already starting to weigh up how legacy.

brought me into politics in the first place. I was at school during

her early years. This, the me, was a huge time, particularly given how

bad the state of the country was in 1979 and what she managed to do. By

the time I went to university, the country had turned around and was

already starting to show enormous amounts of growth because of the

restructuring she had been brave enough to put into place. She did

have a very divisive nature, but she wasn't very difficult times. We have

two bearing mind that at times of stress, you need a very strong

leader. My colleagues in Europe right now can't understand why we

are talking about some of the negative aspects of structural

reform. Actually, they see she was the world stateswoman. They see she

gave them the real aspiration for democratic societies. Particularly

my colleagues in Poland and the Czech Republic, they can't

understand why we aren't celebrating her life right now. Not everybody is

celebrating her life. You were in the Commons from 1974. What are your

reflections on her political contribution? I disagree with

everything she did, both in terms of Wales and the Welsh economy, the

extremes of wealth and poverty which developed under her government.

Also, the assertion there is no alternative, the way she delayed

peace in Ireland, the miners, I supported them. And I will not be

taking part in any obituaries to Margaret Thatcher. You weren't in

Westminster last week. No, I won't be. I don't believe it is relevant.

In the past, though, when you were in the presiding officer's chair,

Harold Wilson, there was a debate then? I am not criticising the fact

we have an opportunity for an obituary. But now I don't have to

take part in such a thing because I think it would be hypocritical. I am

very concerned that all this discussion about her so-called

legacy is only strengthening those people who believe that austerity is

the answer to the economic situation we are in. Pick up on that point.

have another side to this. My grandfather was a minor in the 1920s

and 30s and lost his job. He and my grandmother had to move to London

because there were no jobs in South Wales. This was a ongoing problem.

He was a trade union representative, so I have history here. But at

school, I studied the miners strike and decided the economic arguments

being put forward was such that we had to actually make reforms

possible. She had the strength of character to do that and sowed the

seeds for what we have as an entrepreneurial country right now.

To be fair, I grew up there for my first jobs with that legacy of

growth and opportunity in Britain, where people suddenly wanted to come

here. Our universities became the best in the world, our businesses

were attracting other foreign investment in. She had a strategy.

Even though she took on the trade unions, she also had a strategy that

changing the economy. Built on financial services, a disaster for

the UK economy. I was very friendly with Peter Walker. He wouldn't agree

with any of that! I support the line taken by the Conservatives in the

Welsh office because the policies pursued were more of a consensual

policy. You can't have a prime minister or first Minister who takes

on the people that didn't vote for her. Do you understand and respect

views like that? When people are talking about the funeral, there

will be protests there, and you understand why people feel like

that? I do. I have family members who feel just as strongly. But it is

important to understand whether United Kingdom was in 1979 and where

it was when she left. It is critically important for me to

understand, as somebody who was a child at the time, that, in 79, only

15% of the U.K.'s GDP came private enterprise. That is her legacy. It

should be something we celebrate because the UK has been at the head

of the European curve. Many member states are struggling with

structural reforms because they took a much longer approach to it.

Whether you have that delivered quickly so you can grow or not, for

decades afterwards, we are all now in a situation whereby we have two

still go on with structural reforms. Past governments have been

a little less able to deliver as firmly as she was able to. Kate is

focusing on the economic impact. Others may focus on more of a social

impact. What do you think about the idea of protesting at the funeral?

don't favour protesting. I would advise people to be absent, to do

something positive on the day. I find it very difficult, myself, and

I am very glad I'm not in a position where I have to take part in events

of this kind because I do believe, very sincerely, that the failure to

think in terms of a society where people have to cooperate with each

other and live together and shared together and think of a society in

terms of individualism to the extent that I believe she tried in her firm

-- famous sermon on the mount to subvert Christian theology. I

remember how the archbishop took her on. Then, of course, there was the

Falklands War, and I knew people from the military who were operating

the policy she took on then, and it was a near total disaster. In all

fairness, that is not a view shared. A large number of military

personnel have come out and spoken so highly favourably of her. Some of

the leading Welsh victims of some of the attacks in the Falklands have

spoken so lovingly of what she was achieving as a leader. This

highlights the division in views. And now the measles outbreak. This

weekend, more than 2,000 children have been vaccinated at special MMR

drop-in clinics across South Wales. The clinics across South Wales have

been held in a bid to tackle the outbreak in the Swansea area. The

number of cases there is now just under 700 but isn't expected to peak

for at least another four weeks. Public health officials have been

warning that around 40,000 children across Wales still need to be

vaccinated against measles. Mick Antoniw, the Pontypridd AM and

member of the Assembly's Health Committee, joins us from our Cardiff

newsroom. Swansea is the focus of this outbreak. Inevitably, people

will be concerned of the spread. Should parents be concerned?

Concerned enough to ensure their children are vaccinated. Even up to

teenagers. In my own health authority, there have only been

three cases of measles, but it isn't -- but it is very active in order to

ensure those teenagers are being vaccinated now to avoid catching the

disease over the course of the coming weeks. The Welsh government

has ruled out compulsory vaccination. I was talking to a

nurse and she was saying that every year, there has been a spike in

September or October when students are going to university and who have

not been vaccinated. Do you think compulsory immunisation should be

introduced? I don't think it is necessary because what is more

important is we think carefully about upping our game in terms of

educating people about the risks. What we have now is a generation

who, to some extent, believe there is not an underlying problem there

is vaccination doesn't take place. In the post-war period, people

understood vaccination much more. Now, we need to re-educate people

that there is a risk there. That is what is important. You are a member

of the health committee. Is this something you will be discussing

with the new chair? I certainly think we will want to discuss and

see whether there were lessons to be learned from this outbreak. Some of

those discussions may be beneficial to the whole of the United Kingdom

because this is not just a Wales issue, although I think the

authorities have responded very effectively. We need to know what we

need to do to ensure more people understand the importance of

vaccination and the consequences of non-vaccination, and how we engage

with people to dispel any concerns they may have. The downturn of

vaccination in the 90s arose out of a scare of the risk of autism which

proved to be false. Maybe, the mistake from the past is we didn't

appreciate sufficiently the consequences of that. The Welsh

government has ruled out compulsory immunisation. Is that the right

decision quiz Mac --? We need to work with individuals to identify

those who have not been vaccinated and to persuade them. Here, it is an

international issue as well. We were looking at the potential of getting

rid of measles from the world. Now, of course, we won't be able to do

that. We need to support the clinical advice we have had, and all

of us had to take that advice seriously and to pursue it and

explain to people why it is a social responsibility issue. In the

headlines, this outbreak in Swansea, I don't know if you have discussed

it with any of your colleagues in Europe. Part of this is local. On an

immunisation level, data suggests 95% of the population have to be

immunised. I have to say I have sympathy with the parents here. My

own children, it was right in the middle of the entire scare when, in

particular, I was worried about my son and was trying to get some

expert advice on whether or not I should vaccinate him. I was in the

privileged position of understanding the science. And I had access to

world leading scientists at the time. Not one of them told me to do

it. If they were not confident at the time, I don't think they blamed

me for not giving my son the vaccine. I gave my son the single

vaccines. I felt very strongly he should be immunised, but felt

strongly about not taking the risk with the vaccine. The year before

this study came out, the UK government withdrew the single

measles vaccine. Even when they knew there was a problem, the government

didn't allow that license to be renewed. That is a mistake of

policy. When the media blow up these things... This was published in the

Lancet. It wasn't something that people could not ignore. The media

actually blew it up into something very large when this was only 12

patients studied. We have to take great caution here. The public

health messages need to come out. Politicians also need to understand

that when people are worried, they need to find alternatives.

Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the

week in 60 seconds. Flags were flown at half-mast at the national

assembly and Parliament to mark the death of Baroness Thatcher. The

Bridgend MP said with European countries cutting defence spending,

it was important the governments across Europe worked together. She

called for one for all and all for one. Alan Davies said farmers would

be allowed to bury animals on their land. European restrictions were

relaxed because farmers were unable to dispose of stock. And the merger

of the social services department is unlikely. Council officers advised

the pooling of budgets represented a significant risk. The Welsh

government has been encouraging authorities to work collaboratively