19/05/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

say new rights for people who care for disabled or elderly relatives

will be cost-neutral but can these major reforms be achieved at no

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2151 seconds

The Welsh Government says legislation giving new rights to

people who care for disabled or elderly relatives will be cost

neutral but can major reforms to social services be achieved at no

extra cost for the taxpayer? And we'll hear the Assembly

Presiding Officer's concerns about the health and well-being of the

media. Joining me throughout today's

programme are two Assembly Members, the Conservative Nick Ramsay and

Labour's Mick Antoniw. Good morning. Let's begin with the story in the

papers affecting your party, the Conservatives, comments from Lord

Howe, suggesting that David Cameron has lost control over his

backbenchers over the matter of Europe.

I think that's rather unfair of Lord Howe. I think he is making a point

which the Conservative party shouldn't beat veering off into any

direction. We are making the case to reform Europe. David Cameron is in

more control there than any of the other party leaders. If you think he

is control over Europe, there is a debate there over gay marriage. A

suggestion that the Conservative whips will be happy if only half of

the party rebel. That isn't control, is it? Any party does have

independent views within it. I wouldn't want to be in a party that

voted the same way. I think gay marriage will go through but there

is an issue whether it goes through the House of Lords. I think David

Cameron is leading from the front and we have a prayer minister who

cares and is taking action. Nick, as an independent observer, you are

obviously not one of those but is he in control of the backbenchers?

isn't. The backbenchers are leading him by the nose and it is not clear

which direction they are taking him in. In any other circumstance, I

think there would be a general election called. The fact is that

the Lib Dems will not support that step because they are worried about

their imposition. Geoffrey Howe has already taken care of one

Conservative prime minister, will he take out another one? I think he's

making an important point about the role of the agenda and to which

extent the minority party has actually taken control over the

government agenda on Europe. You sit on the Labour back benches. Do you

find it hard to bite your tongue sometimes? You have a dual role when

you are government backbencher, one is you want to get your own

government, your own party's manifested misters carried through

but you also have a duty to scrutinise and hold governments to

account so getting that balance right in a constructive way, I

think, is the challenge. We might refer back to that after we hear

about this next item. Health service and local -- Health service and

local government leaders have cast doubt over Welsh Government claims

that major reforms to social services can be achieved at no extra

cost to the taxpayer. Ministers say legislation giving new rights to

people who care for disabled or elderly relatives will be

cost-neutral. But as Daniel Davies reports, councils and NHS bosses

have questioned the claim. With growing demand from an ageing

population, the Welsh government says it is time for radical changes

to social care. It has published the Social Services and Well-being

Bill, one of the first major pieces of legislation since the referendum

to boost the Assembly 's powers in 2011. In the millennium Stadium

behind me, the last government is holding an event to discuss this

bill. It is the latest in a series of conferences to stay in touch with

professionals in social services. We have spoken to some of those

attending and they have questions about whether ministers can make the

changes they want without putting pressure on the public purse.

would have some concerns about that. Most health and social care services

are struggling to meet demand today. That means that in order to release

funding to have these innovative changes over the next couple of

years it will be evolving will stop that would signal to me that a lot

of older people living in their own homes, dementia sufferers and

carers, are going have to wait until these things are put in place. We

need these changes now and I think that means investment. The bill will

mean more rights for carers who look after relatives. It will establish a

National adoption service and more people will be able to control their

own care budget. The government says all this will be cost neutral but

there aren't many neutrals in this debate. Local councils, the health

service, charities, they are all lining up to take aim at the

government claimed that it can't legislate to transform social

services at no extra cost. Those fears have been aired at an Assembly

enquiry. The Welsh Local Government Association says the idea that the

bill is cost neutral tinted cannot be the case and people in the NHS

have their own doubts. We would question whether this can be cost

neutral. And I know that there is a lot of background work going on and

our colleagues at the Welsh Local Government Association are looking

at cost and finances and financial implications and assessment of that.

I think that, you know, is going to be a very important piece of work.

It goes without saying in the current economic climate, costs

continue to be challenged for the public purse, whether it be health

services or social care or the third sector. All the evidence we have

seen a committee to date are quite clear that it will not be cost

neutral, there will be considerable cost incurred in the change. In the

long term, they met very well -- they may be change and if we see the

evidence, people may support it but they need to be more money spent in

the initial period when we have no many.

This is a long game. The laws which regulate social services have been

built up over decades. The last government says it can use the

Assembly 's law making muscle to signify all of that but it is doing

it at a time when public spending is tight. There is another aspect of

this bill that isn't clear. The rules on who qualifies for what kind

of car. Eligibility criteria will be revealed further down the line but

some Assembly Members want to see the detail now. Deputy social

services Minister Gwenda Thomas has said there is a financial imperative

for this bill to be cost neutral over the long-term. She says there

is no more money. There is a promise of transition funding and help with

staff training but Mrs Thomas said savings will be made by making the

NHS and social services work more closely together. She rejects the

claim that any many saved here will be outweighed by extra costs. She

will face questions from the family members next month but on the issue

of money, she has made it quite clear where the government stands.

Mick Antoniw, you have scrutinised the health and social is -- the

health and social care bill. Is it possible to be cost neutral?

It is possible over a series of years. The question is what the

short-term impact is and how that cost is managed and whether there is

a need for intervention in order to start the ball rolling. And the

other question, I suppose, is what are the indications if it isn't cost

neutral because the reforms in the Bill will have become a decision,

they will happen. What if it isn't cost neutral? What is happening is

there is a scrutiny process. I listened to some of that evidence on

the committee and there are concerns that we get it right on the actual

cost indications. There clearly are savings along the way but a lot of

other issues to do with costing, for example the UK government's response

to the till not enquiry. We do not know what the impact is from when

Vista -- from Westminster in terms of where the levels are set for

elderly care. Nick Ramsay, that makes it difficult to do the figures

because we don't have them. Whether Thomas is no clearer than you or I

whether it will be cost neutral, it seems. The jury is out over whether

this can be cost neutral or not, it seems. Judging by troubled that the

vast government has had delivering things at cost neutral in the past,

I would suspect that in the medium term it will be difficult to make it

cost neutral. If savings are made in the long term it will be difficult

to make it cost neutral. If savings are made in the long-term, then it

can be cost neutral but are those going to be made? I'm not convinced.

The important thing is we can't allow things to stay as they are. We

have to modernise the care system and integrate it and there are

clearly benefit from doing so. you surprised by the Thomas has says

there is an imperative, it has to be cost neutral? I think if there has

to be savings from that, it will have to result in it being cost

neutral. The question is how you will enable local authorities to

carry through those reforms and I think that is what the committees

are going to be scrutinising. is a big at being made to the health

and social services Bill. I think that is the problem. You have

decided that the NHS and social care is not a priority. That is not the

issue. The issue is how you fund care in the future and the big issue

is what the UK proposals are to in respect to the response to the

enquiry. The modernisation process clearly has to go ahead and that can

be carried through within the existing budget. But politically

speaking, your party, should these forms not because neutral in the

short-term, they cost more than the government say they will cost

committee will the government over that. Are you surprised Gwenda

Thomas is giving you the opportunity to do that because nobody thinks it

will be cost neutral from what I'm hearing. The parties have got to

keep together because this is the future. We are the people benefiting

from this in the future. Something has to be done, it is completely

right about that. It is smoke and mirrors at the peasant. If it is not

going to be cost neutral, say it isn't. As the official opposition,

will you work with the government? Because you do support elements of

this. Social care has to change but my party was the party that

suggested we needed cuts in the area of social care and health so the

government will have to say where the money will come from and it is a

tough ask, I accept that. Of course I will work with the government to

get things right but we have to be upfront with people if it isn't cost

neutral. What are the indications here? Is done suggested in his

piece, this is the first major pieces of registration? Legislation

since the vote. It is vital, whether we work with children, the elderly,

the disabled, all those who depend on care provision, we need to make

sure there is a seamless system. Also for the reputation of the

establishment. Exactly. This is one of the key planks of carrying

forward and social agenda and that is why be have to carry on with

support from all parties and that is widely scrutiny process is so

important. It is correct that people ask about the cost, cost

implications and listen to evidence. We are at the early stage of that

legislation so we have to wait and see what the responses are from

government. Sooner or later, if the Assembly can't get simple things

right like this, there will be a training away of confidence. This

isn't one of the simple things, I can assure you! Now where do you get

most of your news about Wales? Programmes like this one, I hope,

and long may it continue. But the Assembly's Presiding Officer has

warned that people could have less access to post is within a decade

and the situation will be damaging This week, Rosemary Butler will host

a conference examining how Welsh news and politics are covered by the

media and trying to address what is being described as the Welsh

Democratic deficit. Ahead of that, I spoke to her in Cardiff Bay and

asked her about the concerns and how they can be addressed. My concern is

that the majority of people in Wales don't get their news from Wales,

they get their news across from the Indus border and it tends to be

England centric. Very few people, relatively, watch the BBC Wales or

ITV Wales channels compared to UK news and therefore they are not

getting the flavour of what is happening in the Assembly.

Newspapers in Wales, we don't have a major national newspaper and the

number of people reading the Welsh newspapers is actually reducing soap

my concern is we are sleepwalking into this area where people will not

be able to get access to what is happening in Wales. Most news

organisations will cover news on merit so isn't it the case that

Welsh politics isn't interesting enough? Thank you very much! I think

I'm very interesting! That is not true because the differences in news

telling Wales and England is enormous and that isn't being shown

to people. In Wales we have the care standards Bill, which is a huge

piece of legislation about the future of the care of older people

in Wales. We've got the organ donation Bill going through and

people so got the Silk Commission which is recommending there will be

tax varying powers for Wales. A huge amount of interesting stuff going

on. So whose fault is it that the message isn't getting across?

think it is everyone's fault because we can shout from the rooftops but

unless people have the opportunity to listen, watch and read, we would

be able to do it. -- won't be able to do it. So what can the government

to? Give some money for some news provision? That is what I'm hoping

to discussed in the seminar. It will be certainly a new way forward if

government money is put into English-speaking, English-language

newspapers. Is that the right thing to do? I don't know. That is why the

seminar will be interesting. We have influential people from the use of

media taking part. We have influential people invited to be at

the lecture to ask questions and hopefully we will get some kind of

resolution from it. And what are the long-term effects for democracy in

Wales? I think we are sleepwalking into a huge problem unless we

address it now. We could end up, and with all due respect to you, with

just the BBC covering what is going on in Wales with a reduced number of

staff and I don't it will be good for television in Wales and it will

be back to something like the Soviet Union where there is only one source

of news. It is very important for the people of Wales to have a

plurality of views. He flicks through the pages of UK

newspapers and there is no coverage at all of Wales, why is that?

was ideal officer, I think she sounds worried that Assembly Members

are two interesting! There is an issue about scrutiny. I checked a

scrutiny committee, Mick is involved in scrutiny. Beyond that, there is

no House of Lords, the legislation here doesn't go to a second chamber

so we rely very heavily on the media and the balance has been training

away recently. There are certain things going through at the moment

like the presumed consent organ donation Bill. If that was an

English bill, it would be having massive attention from the media.

The danger is it will pass here and nobody will be aware of it and that

cannot be good for democracy. is coverage in Wales on that. How

important is it that there is UK coverage? I think it does seem that

people tend to get the majority of their information on what is going

on in government from London based these agencies. The other problem is

the extent to which people access information online and a lot of that

is based in terms of Westminster information so it important to the

Democratic race is that people know actually what is happening and it's

important also that the media is able to present that in an

interesting and digestible way and I think the two go together. Are you

interesting enough, though? Do enough interesting things happen in

the Assembly to justify coverage? Well, that's the million-dollar

question, isn't it! I think what is happening in the Assembly is

credibly important. Whether you like the Assembly or don't like it...

the message isn't getting out there, is it? Whose fault is that? Your

fault or our fault? Maybe a mixture of both but definitely the London

media shouldn't think that just because there is a devolved

settlement here, the people of Wales don't matter. We are still 5% of the

population and if they will cover a health Bill that is not official in

England and if there is something controversial here, why aren't they

covering it? That is an issue for the media. They are missing a trick.

They could have more stories. Westminster level, you hear

government statement being issued that are making assumptions that are

avoiding the fact there is a distinction within Wales so the

problem goes not just in the media but it also goes to a government

level and that is not a party point I am making. Maybe we've got to be a

bit smarter from the Assembly said in terms of how to promote what we

are doing and what are the important issues because there are some vital

issues on social care, organ transplantation, education planning.

These issues will affect the lives of 3 million people within Wales

significantly and it's important they know what is happening. I would

also say sometimes there is an over focus on the gossip stories, the

small talk and what some Assembly Member has done indiscreetly

somewhere. These are stories but if you look at that compared to the

huge spending in the Assembly and the decisions affecting people's

lives, there has to be a better balance between the showbiz and the

mechanics of making this work. We both have a responsibility to

make that happen. Time now for a quick look back at some of the

political stories of the week in 60 The Assembly standards committee

said AMC bring the institution into disrepute should in future face

tougher sanctions, including suspension without pay. The most

conservatives that a major shake-up of accident and emergency services

in South Wales should be abandoned due to a crisis in demand. The NHS

is due to announce a cut in the amount of specialist accident and

emergency centres from seven to four or five. Carwyn Jones said doing

nothing is not an option. Stephen Cobden added that the water bill

announced in the Queen's speech would affect connotation in Wales.

It said it was there to fight any attempt to interrupt the Wales water

-- Welsh Water monopoly. And Michael fabricant suggested the Assembly be

renamed the Welsh Parliament. David Jones told him there was no plans to

rename, saying that is what matters is the legislation and not what it

water story. Yes. The idea that we should introduce Cobb edition into a

privatised water service. If there is any talk about swivel eyed loons,

that is where it is. I'm so glad the Minister Alun Davies is standing up

and saying this is not good for Wales and it doesn't make social

science or economic sense that we should start messing about over who

supplies water from one company to another. We could be going back 40

or 50 years with water grabbing the headlines again? I think it will be

grabbing the headlines but we have to take a stand in Wales, saying

that we have to have water on a not for profit basis. The system is

working and it doesn't make any commercial sense to mess about with

watering between new controls supply of water. Water arrived free and we

must make sure it is distributed in the most efficient way possible.

Michael fabricant, one of your Conservative colleagues in

Westminster, wants to change the name of the Assembly to the Welsh

Parliament. You don't agree with him? Silly season has started

early. I remember making this point last summer. It has taken a long

time for people on the borders of Wales to start to get an idea around

what the Assembly does and the importance of legislation. Why track

that in the air and change the name to a parliament? Didn't the name

idea come from Andrew RT Davies, your party leader? There is a

difference of opinion within the party and probably within other

parties as well. I think it is the National Assembly for Wales and that

is how it should stay. You risk confusion if you rename it. No one

out there, no body out there is asking me to rename it. So are they

wasting their time talking about it? There is a point about the way

the Assembly works and it does have more powers than it had before and

we accept that. In terms of the name, you could change it but what