09/06/2013 Sunday Politics Wales


09/06/2013

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Later in the programme... David Cameron is on the devolution trail

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making the case for Scotland to stay in the union. And a senior Welsh MP

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2139 seconds

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thinks England needs more devolved Hello. On the Sunday Politics Wales,

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a warning that a failure to devolve power in England could threaten the

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future of the UK. And as BBC Cymru Wales begins a week looking at the

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economy, we get a Welsh Bangladeshi view on ethical trading. Joining me

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throughout today's programme are two Assembly members, both new to the

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Sunday Politics Wales studio. Good morning to Plaid Cymru's Lindsay

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Whittle and Labour's Mike Hedges. I've just mentioned that BBC Cymru

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Wales is running a special series of programmes and features on the

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economy this week. It's called What Is Wales Worth? Normally, when we

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talk about the economy, we look at international issues, the UK

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Government and the Welsh Government. But you two are both former council

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leaders. Mike Hedges, you lead Swansea Council. What can be done at

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a local government level to boost the economy? Local authorities are

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very big spenders, local procurement, buying as much locally

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as possible, giving planning permission to major development,

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making sure things are funded more specially and, more importantly, use

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local workers. One project was looking to come forward, and local

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authorities trying to promote development in their area to get

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people back into work. Lindsay Whittle, lots of things that he

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outlines. Is enough being done by local government? It is important

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that Welsh Government actually legislates for local government to

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actually procure their goods more locally. In Wales, only 52% of money

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is spent in Wales. The businesses go outside. In terms of figures, half

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of the spend, so how many millions of pounds? I do not know exactly

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is, but one annual budget is about �400 million per year. If that was

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spent locally, it would create local jobs, which we should be doing,

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spending locally, and no other government would allow this. In

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France, 98% of its money is spent in France. In England, 97%. In Wales,

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52%. That is unfair. It has to go up. And money in different areas

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needs to be spent within that area, but that can be very difficult, but

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within a city region area, we should be able to get up to 80%, which

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would make a huge difference. about legislation? That can be

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difficult. You have to stick to European rules, and also problems

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that some things cannot be sourced locally. But the idea of trying to

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push it up, aiming for 80%, is achievable and something I hope the

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Welsh Government would promote. we need to encourage Welsh local

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government to spend some of its millions it is keeping in the bank

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to improve the economy. Thank you for the time being.

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Any failure to devolve power in England threatens the future of the

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UK, two senior MPs from across the political divide have told this

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programme. The warning from select committee chairs, Labour's Graham

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Allen and David Davies, the Conservative MP for Monmouth, comes

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as the constitutions of Wales and Scotland are debated. Brian Meechan

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reports. David Cameron. David Cameron went to

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Scotland on Friday to tell his party conference that 2014 is about saving

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the union. Scott Booth appals make sure to vote on the independence

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referendum. -- Scottish people go to the polls. He said they should keep

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the union together. Downing Street has always been the centre of

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British political life. Since 1999, power from Wales, Northern Ireland

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and Scotland have passed to the First Minister in their respective

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capitals. But why should England be run by a centralised UK Government?

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The Labour MP, Graham Allen, here's the Constitutional Select Committee,

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which scrutinises the Deputy Prime Minister. He says political parties

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should deal with this. If they do not, the conventional political

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parties will leave the field free brother organisations, perhaps like

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UKIP, -- will leave the field free for the other organisations, such

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like UKIP, which will be a very bad deal for the people of England.

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Graham Allen argues that demolition has been a success I is there and

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did like to see it applied in England. And failure to do so will

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increase discontent. He believes that. All-macro it seems you get

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devolution if you jump up and down and make a noise. That should not

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just apply to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but to England. If

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you has those two key principles, evolution and union, we can put

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nationalism back in the box. The chair of the Welsh Affairs

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Select Committee, David Davies, agrees the status quo is not an

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option. Doing nothing, which is what we have done since 1999, is

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dangerous, playing into the hands of UKIP and perhaps other tumours

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parties, and undermines the union. -- and other extremist parties. UKIP

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leaves the Arab running scared. -- UKIP believes that some of the other

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parties are running scared. BC UKIP coming up, after they are despised,

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and they are reacting. And UKIP are now setting the agenda as we have

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seen. Labour had planned to devolve powers from Westminster to regional

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assemblies in England, coming to a shuddering halt after the Northeast

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delivered an emphatic no vote a decade ago. We need to look at the

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package that was on offer, and believe that is why it was rejected.

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London voted for a local government, voted for the mayor, and others dead

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vote no that, others endorsing it. Maybe there is a challenge for

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English colleagues, exploring devolution, and looking at models

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that work differently in different parts of England. The silk

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commission looked at whether the Assembly should have more powers

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including financial areas. A decision is imminent over whether

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Wales will get power over income tax and borrowing. They could then keep

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some money gathered in Wales, rather than relying on grants, and Welsh

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ministers could vary income tax rates. Is it sustainable to have

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evermore devolution for Wales and Scotland, while England's remains as

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it has always been? Critics say it is not. I can vote for higher

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student fees in England, whilst supporting a situation where shins

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do not pay those fees in Wales, -- where students do not pay those fees

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on wheels, which is unfair. That basic unfairness is likely to

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fracture the union. One of these days, taxpayers in England will see

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this is outrageous. Some in Wales may argue we have an Assembly, what

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difference does it make how England is governed? But when over 80% of

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the population in the UK lives in England, how it is governed affect

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the future of the whole of the UK. Lindsay Whittle, you do not really

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mind the future of the UK being threatened, do you? It is music to

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my ears. The London government is so irrelevant now, it has passed its

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sell by date, Wales and Scotland are moving forward, and support for the

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regions of England as well. Plaid Cymru is an international party.

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Imagine a Cornish one looking after the people of Cornwall. The

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Northeast rejected one, but I think now the time is right for a devolved

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British Parliament to go back out into the regions and look after

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people. A suggestion from Kevin from UKIP there that this was a case of

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the mainstream political parties, Labour, the Conservatives, looking

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after their own interests and taking part of the debate because they are

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scared UKIP will take some votes. That could be true. It is blatantly

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unfair we have assemblies in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but

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nothing in England. Across Europe, they have devolution with one

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exception of an island in Finland. Devolution means assemblies are

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dotted around, Spain, Germany, all having different assemblies.

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Basically regional assemblies, and there has to be an English

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Parliament, but it desperately needs one. The Mackay commission published

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towards the end of March, suggesting there might be a reduced role for

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Welsh MPs. Is that a recognition that maybe we need to be perhaps

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giving more prominence to English politicians within England because

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of what has happened with devolution? It is only fair that

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include politicians should decide on English laws, Welsh politicians

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deciding Welsh laws, perfectly reasonable and logical. I cannot

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understand why that is this mental block when you go to London and you

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can see power resting in one place. That is no longer acceptable all

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stop but how do we go about it? but how do we go about it? The West

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Lothian question seems to be focusing many people's minds.

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Whatever happens in Scotland will have an impact on the future shape

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of the UK. I hope Scotland will fall no to separatism, for Scotland and

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the United Kingdom. You cannot have two types of MPs, they should have

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exactly the same powers, so you need an English Parliament. We have in

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England which is anomalous within a United Kingdom context which needs

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to be put right. So what could happen? Legislation to create and

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includes Parliament, with similar powers to Wales, Scotland and

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Northern Ireland. The do not have vastly different powers. We could

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have modified powers to clarify the Welsh position. It would be very

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simple to have an endless Parliament dealing with English issues. They

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are not all the same, Scotland and Northern Ireland have borrowing

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powers, the Welsh Government does not. The Welsh Government needs

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that. A key military council has more boring powers -- community

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Council has more borrowing powers. That can help create more

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employment. I have almost got boring on that subject, and that would help

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inflate the economy, something that needs a change of Treasury rules.

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All they have to do is make changes to the Welsh Assembly government to

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have the same powers, which would solve the problems. No legislation,

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just a Treasury letter. And the final work on Scotland. Mike Hedges

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wants Scotland to remain part of the UK, you do not, how likely is that?

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I will spend my holiday next year in Scotland campaigning for Scotland to

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have its own independent government, and I look forward to that day, and

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the day when Wales follows suit. shall gauge the effect of your

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holiday when the referendum comes next September. Thank you for the

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time being. This week, BBC Cymru Wales is

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focusing on the economy with a series of special programmes and

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features asking What Is Wales Worth? We set the ball rolling at the start

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of today's programme and we are continuing with an economic theme,

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ethical shopping. A high street issue that goes beyond Wales and the

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The recent deaths of more than 1000 people at a clothing factory in

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Bangladesh has raised concerns over the terms and conditions faced by

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clothing workers in Southeast Asia and the Far East, prompting a debate

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over how and where called are made. That debate has been taking place

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within the Bangladeshi community in Wales, the backbone of the

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restaurant industry, and the feeling that consumers need to shop with a

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conscience. People are very poor and very hard-working. And there are

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normally low wages and they do not even earn more than 150 -- won more

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than �1 50 per day. And I believe there should be a minimum wage.

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number of high street retailers have backed plans to improve safety at

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Bangladeshi clothing factories. Safety was said to be at the heart

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of responsible retailing with ethical trading programmes ensuring

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tough safety standards were built built-in with suppliers to drive up

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standards for health and safety. And that these standards routinely go

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far beyond the legal requirements of the countries in which they

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operate. The UK Government is donating �80 million to train

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Bangladesh guess she garment workers -- Bangladeshi Garment workers.

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Wales, being the world's first beer trade nation, there is a commitment

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from grassroots to ensure sustainability for supply and the

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farmers, the small farmers growing the products we rely on everyday,

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and being treated fairly with a minimum wage and so on. But the

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result was more a government can do. We have a sustainable

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development Bill in process, and the finance minister is keen to ensure

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that everything spent in Wales is spent sustainable aid. And there is

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a feeling that shoppers do have some power. It is a shame it took for

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people to lose their lives for us to consider where clothes are coming

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from. We are starting to see campaign is going into shops and

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asking, which is where it starts. We sometimes do not realise how much

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power we have. And that power does not need to end there. Many poor

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people are making these calls. And the people who are buying these,

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they should realise where it is from, or how it has come. Do you

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think they should refuse to buy some of these garments? Well, of course,

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they should refuse to buy some of these. But something like happened

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in Bangladesh happens again. Mike Hedges, I think that the

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tragedy in Bangladesh makes everyone think about where their garments are

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coming from. I have gone through, I hesitate to use the word wardrobe,

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but lots of them from overseas, China, other places. This has

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concentrated the minds and maybe put the responsibility to find out we're

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garments are made? It certainly does. My constitution -- my

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constituency has lots of garment workers, some of which has moved

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overseas. I understand people putting very small amounts of money

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left in the pocket to buy garments for their children as well. I can

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see why they are doing that and, if they did not do that, their children

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would be a lot worse. This tragedy, though it has focused some big

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companies, and some paying compensation, some signing up to an

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accord that they will work to improve safety in these textile

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factories. But it takes something huge, at huge loss of life, before

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action is taken. Yes, what happened was tragic and a very sad

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occurrence, and I'm sure everyone around the world sat up and took

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notice. We do not have many designer shops in Wales. What I find ironic

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is we have poor Welsh people purchasing cheap clothing that is

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made by poor Bangladeshi people. That is the ironic twist in this

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story. Personally, we buy fair trade coffee, bananas, chocolate, and

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there are such a thing as fair trade clothing, and Wales are supposed to

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be a fair trade nation, and we should concentrate minds and ensure

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we become a fair trade clothing nation. A sense that these products

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come at a premium, costing more? Personally, I would rather pay extra

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in the hope that the worker manufacturing the garments gets a

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decent wage. If we stopped buying these cheap clothes, that would do

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no good for the Bangladeshi economy, because those people would be out of

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work. In Bangladesh and other places, we need building regulations

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and a whole other range, which the Tories described as red tape, but

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which are rules to keep people safe. Minimum wages, a whole range

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of things, once I personally believe and that will have an effect. It

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could put 50p on the Taoiseach, but have a huge effect on the people

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making it. -- on the garment. Thank you. Time now for a quick look back

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at some of the political stories of the week in 60 seconds.

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Carolyn Jones said Wales was making progress with improvements in areas

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like the economy, jobs, education and housing as he published the

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annual review. Opposition said without measurable targets the

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programme for government was meaningless all stop Welsh

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Conservatives set out plans to reimburse taxpayers the money the

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Welsh Government paid for Cardiff airport and that growth in

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passengers and routes could result in it being sold back to the private

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sector. The troubled airport was bought in March and that it now has

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the right structure to move forward. Criticism of plans to cut the legal

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aid budget. The prime ministers said there was a consultation and

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response is considered, but there would have to be cuts. And the story

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we featured last week, a deal on tackling senior council officials

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pay and opposition parties. Plaid Cymru said council chief executives

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wages would now be set by a read minute Asian panel.

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-- would now be looked at by our panel.

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Both of you gentlemen have dealt with council chief executives.

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Lindsay Whittle, we discussed at last week. Your party claims victory

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on this. Quite rightly so. Well done to them. It is a shame that the

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Welsh Government had to be dragged kicking and screaming into that

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Vickery, but it is one we will not forget. What happened was a public

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disgrace. It would never have happened when I was leader at

:58:21.:58:31.
:58:31.:58:33.

carefully. And I do see that. Hedges, you were talking about that

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subject, and a lot happening in seven days. And it is not just one

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council, and your party can be involved. It is a local government

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problem. We used to have this national agreement, and it has been

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ratcheted up, and what we need is to get down to a situation where there

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is everyone paid at a rate which is acceptable. I pleaded down more as

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my Vickery, because I have been arguing this for a long time. -- the

:59:14.:59:24.
:59:24.:59:26.

I see this more as my victory. there been a change of dynamic?

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Maybe defeating the government is going to far? But the government

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changing their mind because of pressure from opposition parties.

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Should the government take that in mind going ahead? If the opposition

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parties get together, it can bring the Assembly to a grinding halt. I

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do not think Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats would want that to

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happen. Not just a grinding halt, change of policy? This is one real

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occasion when the parties can get together, but we will not always get

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together, because we fundamentally disagree with the Conservative Party

:00:06.:00:12.

issues. This is a rear occasion. This was right decision that you

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