15/09/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

after the summer recess, and the party conference season is already

upon us. First, the Liberal Democrats. Have a great conference.

Nick Clegg has some convincing to do, according to our very own Sunday

Politics poll, his troops don't like his coalition bedmates. The latest

poll of the country also has the Lib Dems languishing behind UKIP in

fourth place, with only 9%. Paddy Ashdown! So can the Lib Dems

claw their way back, come the election in 2015? We will talking to

former leader, now the party's general election commander-in-chief,

Paddy Ashdown. George Osborne is a happy bunny

Later in the programme, chicken feed these days,

Later in the programme, chicken feed dashed that is how the Welsh

Conservative Assembly leader describes previous budget deals with

the Welsh describes previous budget deals with

now heading for the exit. We will hear from Nick Clegg on what it

signifies. And freshly showered from the Great

North Run and looking as fresh as daisies, the best and brightest

political panel in the business. Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Iain

Martin, who will be tweeting throughout the programme.

Now, their leader is our Deputy Prime Minister. They are the junior

partners of our coalition government. They like the colour

yellow and they have not won a general election since dinosaurs

walked the earth. Now they are behind UKIP in the polls, so as the

party gathers for its annual bash this year in Glasgow, what is on

their mind? Who are the people gathering at the Clyde this weekend?

their mind? Who are the people Before they started drinking, we

surveyed 580 Liberal Democrat councillors in England and Wales,

with the help of some pollsters, comrade. The first question we asked

was, if the next election results in a hung parliament, which team would

you rather go into coalition with, the Reds or the blues? Lib Dem

councillors said Labour, two to one. the Reds or the blues? Lib Dem

Tories or Labour? It is not for us the Reds or the blues? Lib Dem

to say. It is for the voters to say. We will decide depending on

what the voters tell us. Your councillors favoured a coalition

with Labour. Well, it depends what is on the table. Who would you

rather play table football against? I would rather play against you,

because I am winning. So in the Lib Dems shop, which policies are

winning 's which ones are heading for the bargain bin? The most

winning 's which ones are heading popular policy was a mansion tax on

house is worth more than £2 million, popular policy was a mansion tax on

which was supported by 80 -- 86% of councillors. The next most popular

policy was scrapping the Trident councillors. The next most popular

nuclear deterrent, supported by 72% of councillors. Then there was the

nuclear deterrent, supported by 72% reinstatement of the 50p top rate of

income tax. 70% of councillors like the look of that. When it came to

the idea of banning the burka in public places like schools and

airports, 45% of councillors were in favour. Finally, a ban on topless

Page three model is won the support of 33% of councillors. Why is it so

popular, the idea of a mansion tax? It is a much fairer tax. We know

there are people out there with very expensive houses. Which of these is

most important to you? Banning Trident. The cold war ended in

1989. Another one was the idea of banning the burka in public places.

No, I feel people should wear whatever they like. If they want to

No, I feel people should wear wear the birth or a kilt or if they

want to be naked or not wear anything. We are the party of jobs.

Thank you. Last night, a fully clothed Nick Clegg rallied his

troops, but if he was not around, who would Lib Dem councillors want

instead? Business Secretary Vince Cable was most popular, with a third

of the votes. In second place, the party's president, Tim Farron, with

27%. 10% went to Danny Alexander, Chief Secretary to the Treasury,

while the business minister Joe Swinson received 7%. The Energy

Secretary Ed Davey scooped 6%, and in last place, Steve Webb, the

pensions minister, who got 5%. If any of these councillors want to

talk to me about it, I would be delighted to hear from them. Is that

a bid for a leadership campaign? It certainly isn't. What do you think

of these? That is quite a collection. These are the

contenders. But our survey is not the only one that has got tongues

wagging in Glasgow, because the Lib Dem leadership have commissioned

their own poll which showed that 75% Dem leadership have commissioned

of the country will never vote Dem leadership have commissioned

the party, no matter what they do. Also meeting here this weekend, this

the party, no matter what they do. group of bikers. But Liberal

Democrats like to think they have got just as much va-va-voom, even if

a big chunk of the country doesn't. Add, back in his hometown. So, the

Lib Dems are on 9% in the polls. Much of their party thinks they are

Lib Dems are on 9% in the polls. moving in the wrong direction.

Earlier, I spoke to former party moving in the wrong direction.

leader Paddy Ashdown. He has been put in charge of heading up the 2015

leader Paddy Ashdown. He has been election campaign. I asked him if

the mood in Glasgow was grim. No. In many ways, as you know, Tory old

commentator that you are just as I am a hoary old member at the other

end of the camera, we have been there, done that and got the

T-shirt. Where you are in the midterm of a government, especially

when you are in government and the country is going for in a deep

economic crisis, has almost no relevance to where you might be when

the nipple come to consider how they will vote in 600 days time -- when

the people come to consider how they will vote. We do not dismiss polls,

but they are a snapshot of what is happening now and give little

indication of where we will be. My guess is, for what it is worth, that

as we come to the election, the public will be in a very serious,

probably frightened mood. Their main public will be in a very serious,

thoughts will be, who maintains my job, makes sure I don't have to pay

thoughts will be, who maintains my to higher mortgage? The coalition

has delivered not only the required policies to make Britain's economy

prosperous, but also its society fair. That is what people will want

to see. I think coalition politics are here to stay and we have a role

to play in it. But you are in a grim mood this morning. You tweeted that

you were not happy with how the Observer newspaper handled your

interview. What was the problem? Is there anything we can do to help?

There is probably something they could do to help. I have no

arguments with the interview. The headline they chose to put on it

late last night was outrageous, misrepresentative and in one case in

accurate. What was the headline? Something about Ashdown wants a

coalition with the Tories, or at Something about Ashdown wants a

least they gave that in for us -- inference. Let me make this point.

We are coming up to the next election. I am in charge of the

campaign. Any journalist who in these next two years says that any

Liberal Democrat prefers anything else in terms of the outcome of a

coalition but the result of the ballot box dictating that outcome,

that any prefer one side to another over and they want to see a

that any prefer one side to another coalition determined by the electors

that any prefer one side to another in the votes, will get a bloody hard

time from me, no matter who they are. We take the warning. A survey

of Lib Dem councillors shows that in the event of another hung

parliament, only 16% of your the event of another hung

councillors want to renew the coalition with the Tories. That is a

councillors want to renew the clear sign that your activists want

a change of direction. I don't think it is news that as a left-wing

party, we find it more congenial with those on the left wing, but

that is not the issue. You saw it was not the issue at the last

election. We are servants of the ballot box. We do watch the British

people require us to do to provide a stable government in the interests

of our country. I am sure you have got the point by now. I have fought

of our country. I am sure you have the Tories all my life. But when

Labour run away from the Tories all my life. But when

responsibility to amend the economic crisis, was this right for the

country? That is what drives me. Let me say again. The people will

determine who are going to be in any coalition, should there be one, the

voters and nobody else. It is not about what we like. I understand

that. But your own internal polls show that Mr Clegg and the

leadership are not taking the party with them on that. I don't think

that is true. Nick Clegg has done what no other party leader has done.

He took the coalition agreement to the party, and they voted for it. So

it is not true to say that members of the party are moving in a

different direction. I think we are extraordinarily united. I did not

expect them to be so under these pressures, but they have surprised

me and made me joyful at the same time. The party has done what it

needs to do. This is what time. The party has done what it

done in local government for a long time. We may have our private likes

and dislikes, but the thing that time. We may have our private likes

dictates the formation of a coalition is the ballot box. You

have said that three times. I can say it again if you like. Please

don't! What if your party votes to reinstate tuition fees as party

policy afternoon? We will have to reinstate tuition fees as party

listen to that and act accordingly. You must listen to the voice of the

party and take it into account in what you do. I am always quite

careful, as you know, about answering hypothetical questions. I

don't think it is likely to happen, but if it did, we would have to do

consider it. I thought what distinguished Lib Dems was that if

your party conference voted for something, it was in the manifesto.

The manifesto is taken in its final form before the party for decision.

The party will express views at this stage in all sorts of ways. It did

in my leadership, too. The manifesto is democratically agreed by the

party at the time of the election, not before. The Tory conference will

be about how they think they have been vindicated, that austerity has

worked, the economy is turning a corner. But Nick Clegg's conference

announcements will be about plastic bags. Have you got the hang of this

coalition think? Andrew, you can always be guaranteed to put things

in the most discreditable form! That is part of your charm. That was

about to be a minor announcement in the middle of his speech. But it was

discovered beforehand. It has not been very popular in terms of how it

has been received, but that is not the central message. That leads me

to what I think is the biggest danger you face at the next

election. Isn't the biggest danger that the Tories, not you, if there

is an economic recovery, they will get the credit for it? I don't think

that is true. By the way, I don't think the electorate does gratitude.

The only time people cast a thank you vote was probably for Mrs

Thatcher over the sale of council houses. We could have a different

discussion over whether that was a good idea. But what you have done is

the underpinning for the promise of what you will do. In this

government, we have stayed firm on a what you will do. In this

very tough economic policy. But will you get the credit? What we have

done by ourselves, which the Tories would never have done, is make sure

that when the pain is felt, it is not the poor who feel it. We have

seen the biggest shift of taxation, lifting the poorest in the country

out of taxation, that has ever happened, including in the previous

Labour government. You are presiding over the biggest squeeze on living

standards in modern times. Because it is the biggest recession in

modern times. When you speak to the 2.5 million people who have been

lifted out of taxation altogether because of the Liberal Democrats,

speak to those who have had a £400 tax cut. You may be able to make the

speak to those who have had a £400 connection, Andrew, you are a sharp

observer, between a very deep economic crisis and difficulty for

everybody. But it is clear that if the Tories had been by themselves,

none of that would have happened. We have sought to shift the burden away

from the poorest in this country. I am part of that. So when we go into

the next election, the message will am part of that. So when we go into

be that if you want to continue to have a prosperous economy and a

society, only the Liberal Democrats will deliver that. Tim Farron says

he likes Ed Miliband and he does not want to diss him. Can you confirm

that there will be no dissing of Ed Miliband? It is not much my style.

I've never much liked comments about the other leaders. I do not intend

to make it so in the future. Can I'd finish up on Syria? You said after

the Syria vote that Britain was a hugely diminished country. Given it

was the British Parliament that said both sides on a course which could

now see Syria give up chemical weapons without records to military

action, would you like to withdraw these remarks and admit that you

should be proud and happy with what Britain has done? No. You and I both

know, because we are old observers, that that would never have happened

unless there had been an underpinning of a threat to use

force. The British Parliament resigned from that. We have no part

to play in the fact that Assad and Putin have moved towards peace for

to play in the fact that Assad and fear of military action. We decided

not to be part of that. It is fear of military action. We decided

exactly the opposite. Why would have liked to have seen our country join

in with those who are serious about upholding an international law which

has restrained even than axes and talent, but instead we resigned and

left others to make sure that we moved towards peace. -- even the

Maxis and Stalin. But if it had not been for the British Parliament, we

would not have had the time to allow this to happen. It has avoided war.

Job done, British Parliament. That would be true if it was accurate but

it is not. The resolution proposed a delay, that we should wait until the

inspectors came back. That time frame was absolutely nothing to do

inspectors came back. That time with the parliamentary vote. The

vote was going to incorporate that. I do not think you can claim what

vote was going to incorporate that. you claim. In the Balkans, I

remember that diplomacy, which was not reinforced by the threat of

military action, does not work. It is when diplomacy runs with a grain

of military action that it works. And if you want a fantastic

illustration of that, look at what is happening over the last two

weeks. By regret to say that our country, which has always been in

favour of engagement and not disengagement, had no part to play

in that. They give a joining us, Paddy Ashdown. Enjoy my old

university city. And you we would get to the Balkans

eventually, and we did. His biggest challenge is if the economy is

looking reasonably good by 2015, to get some credit for the Lib Dems,

when the Tories will want to halt it all. But his position is not to be

the necessary axeman. That is George Osborne's role. Their role is to be

the chaser party, taking the edge off. They will because of me going

on about the pupil premium and racing people out of income tax.

That is what you will hear from them, how they have taken the edge

of the cuts. Will that work? They are in a pretty good position. Even

if they have lost two thirds of the popular support, according to the

polls, I do not know anyone in Westminster methinks that will be

matched in their parliamentary representation. If they have 56 MPs

now, they might lose a dozen but they will not be decimated.

Strategically, they are in a better position than the reading of the

polls would tell you. I think Nick Clegg's survival has been one of the

stories of this Parliament. He is looking good at the comfort -- at

the conference. When he was at his lowest after the AV referendum,

people were saying he would survive and lead us into 2015 and beyond and

I thought that was fanciful. Believe it or not... Paddy Ashdown was

wrong, you were wrong and... I wasn't. I'm underestimated how bad

his rivals are. If you are Lib Dem member, however aggrieved you are

with Nick Clegg, you do not think, wouldn't it be great if Christian

was in charge? Nick Clegg is the best they have. -- Chris Huhne was

in charge. Of course, the people do not vote for the coalition

government and it is a consequence of the way they vote, a different

matter. If Janan Ganesh is right, and they lose 15 seats in the next

election, they could be still pivotal in the next government. It

could be. But there is a danger. Possibly the most amusing outcome

would be a Labour or Tory overall majority, which would be hilarious

for the look on Paddy Ashdown's face. The danger is they get trapped

constantly in talking about the politics of coalition and of a hung

parliament. And they are very puffed up and they enjoy Parliament and

they will enjoy the next one, but up and they enjoy Parliament and

there is a possibility they will not be. While they are talking about the

Polish and themselves, they are not talking about the issues facing the

country. -- talking about the coalition. It was interesting that

he said that we are a left-wing party, not a centre-left party or a

centre party, but a left-wing party. I'm going to put myself in the

firing line and say that there is a big split between the Tim Farron

firing line and say that there is a line who say they like Ed Miliband,

and another one, Jeremy Browne in the Home Office saying that Labour

are intellectually lazy. The risk clearly a clique around Nick Clegg

who wants to be a synthetic party, but that is not where the membership

who wants to be a synthetic party, and broad base is. The real

activists are clearly of the left, not just the centre-left. They are

very pro-immigration and they want to get rid of Trident. Mr Clegg's

strategy has to be to take the party to the centre. The something not

happen at some stage? The poll suggests it is a left-wing party.

happen at some stage? The poll Very left-wing. Other think the poll

would have yielded -- would have yielded the same results before the

2010 election. This is reflected by the arithmetic. Whichever party is

biggest will most likely be the ones in coalition with the Lib Dems. Nick

Clegg's on latitude to choose is exaggerated by us. The choice is no

tears, it is written into parliamentary arithmetic. But if you

remember the structure of the Lib Dems, they can tie themselves up in

infighting. -- the choice is not ours. They are fundamentally

stable. And Nick Clegg has had a good conference last year, and will

have another one this year. The economy is better than it was a year

ago. It could still go quite well for him. Yes, it is one of the

ago. It could still go quite well stories of this Parliament, his

survival and the way in which he has prospered. But there are a lot of

people out there, students, campaigners, labour activists who

have not forgotten what he has done in government and are determined to

get him. It will be a tough year and a half. Tougher than he imagined.

Now, not so long ago they were writing George Osborne's political

obituary. Be on the Omni shambles budget of 2012 and a lacklustre

performance of the British economy meant his reputation work -- was in

the dirt. -- the omnishambles. But things have changed. The Chancellor

is saying he has been vindicated. If true, we're do that leave his

critics? At your stuck on the runway, it looks as though the

British economy has taken off, growing by 0.7% in

British economy has taken off, quarter. Forecasts for the rest of

the year have been revised up words. What's more, the office for National

statistics says that the double-dip recession never actually happened.

Unemployment is down in the three months to July and the number of

people claiming jobseeker's months to July and the number of

allowance is falling at its months to July and the number of

spasticity rate since 1997. On Monday, George Osborne said his

policies were bearing fruit. We held our nerve when many told us to

abandon our plans. As a result, thanks to the efforts and sacrifices

of the British people, Britain is turning a corner. The message for

his Labour critics was clear. The Chancellor thinks he was right and

they were wrong. And Chuka Umunna joins me now for the Sunday

interview. Good afternoon. Good afternoon.Do

you accept that the economy has turned a corner? I think it is good

that a stalled recovery appears to have come back to life, but let's

that a stalled recovery appears to get this in perspective. We have had

three wasted years. We have the worst economic recovery in history.

Debt is up and we have record youth unemployment. If you ask your

viewers who are watching this programme if they feel better or

worse off, compared to 2010, the majority will tell you they feel

worse because, on average, wages are down by £1500 compared to May of

2010. That is the situation. The questionnaires, what is the

government going to do about it? And one of the things we have seen

talked about, Vince Cable has been talking about this as well, is what

is happening in the housing market. It seems that much of the solution

to powering the recovery in the eyes of George Osborne lies in sorting

out the housing market but the problem is, we are at risk of being

out the housing market but the another housing bubble. Because of

out the housing market but the research that came out this week, we

know that housing in the UK is three times more expensive than in the US.

know that housing in the UK is three We know that house prices are rising

five times faster than wages, but we also know that the government is

five times faster than wages, but we building new housing at a slower

rate, the slowest rate that we have seen since the 1920s. Labour

complaining about a housing bubble, isn't that like Satan complaining

about seven? -- seven. We all know that we cannot go back to business

as usual. We need to build a new model of growth. But the housing

bubble you talk about, it is not a bubble. It might turn into one. I

said the risk of a bubble. It is nothing like what happened on the

labourer when the prices soared. As I said, in 2009, we had the crash

labourer when the prices soared. As and we knew we needed to reconfigure

the way that our economy works. Having an economy based on crisis is

not a good thing. We need to rebalance the economy. We saw the

unemployment statistics this week, and it is welcomed overall, that

climate has come down -- unemployment has come down. At half

of the UK has seen unemployment go up. And it went down in other parts.

We know that we need to rebalance our economy, so that we do not just

rely on consumption, but that we grow our productive sectors. And

also that we grow our exports as well. We know we have a continuing

deficit. We always have a trade deficit. There was never a trade

surplus under Labour. Want to come onto what you have mentioned but

would you scrap the help to buy scheme? We have not said that we

would do that. Why not if it is causing the bubble? If you let me

finish, on one hand what that scheme does at the moment, at the moment it

is inhalation to a new scheme but tomorrow -- next year it will be in

relation to the existing scheme. If you do not sort out the supply of

housing, then that is a recipe for the problems we have seen. Our

argument is build more houses. Help more people to buy them by all means

but if you do not have the supply you will end up with rising prices.

That is obvious. Labour said that government austerity would prevent

the return of growth. Austerity is still with us but so is growth. You

were wrong. We never said that growth would never return. What we

said was that if you went for an growth would never return. What we

overly extreme deficit reduction package, you would choke the

recovery and you would choke growth. package, you would choke the

That is what we saw for three years. If you say, look at the US economy,

it has grown at three times the rate of the UK economy. The German

economy has grown at twice the rate. But the British economy is growing

quicker than the American or German economy is now. But over time we

have not seen that happen. But it is now. That may be the case. But my

point is that those three years saw people undergoing huge stress and

worry. It is good that we have growth back again but the question

is, what kind of growth? What we have said... I'm going to come onto

that but your credibility depends on your previous analysis. And there

that but your credibility depends on are doubts about it. This is what

you said not that long ago. In 2012. Our economy has flat lined

near the 0% mark... You and the Labour Party said it had

choked off growth. You were wrong. We were not wrong, because we had

three years where the economy was not moving. Let's remind ourselves.

Claude Osborne was predicting that the economy was going to grow by

6.9% between the start of this Parliament and now. It has grown by

1.8%. We did not say we would never have a return to growth. You never

said that austerity would only temporarily delay growth. We have

looked through your speeches and Ed Balls'. We can't find any reference

to say this is simply delaying the recovery. You said austerity would

choke off growth. If that is true, why has it returned now? Did we say

it would choke off growth for ever? why has it returned now? Did we say

We did not. You have changed your tune. I think your package at the

top of this programme, to frame this around George Osborne, this is not a

Westminster soap opera, it is people's lives, and the people who

deserve huge credit for the growth we are seeing are our country's

businesses, who despite the tough economic times, have succeeded. They

are the ones who have powered this growth. It is not for us in

Westminster to take credit. But you blame the government for lack of

growth. So therefore, when the growth comes, the government has to

take some credit. Look at the situation Britain is in now. We know

the recovery still has to reach many parts of the country, but this is

the OECD annualised growth in the G-7, the world's guest economies.

That is looking pretty healthy. That is a recovery. I am not denying that

That is looking pretty healthy. That we are seeing a stalled recovery,

That is looking pretty healthy. That but who benefits from the growth? On

average, your viewers have sustained a £1500 pay cut. That is the second

biggest fall in the G20 since May 2010. Because we had the biggest

financial services sector and took the biggest crash. Financial

services are still in decline. Financial services are about 10% of

the economy. They are not the only contributor to the economy. The

point is, who benefits? Unemployment is falling, but we don't just want

people to have any job, we want them to have decent jobs that pay a

weight you can live off and that are more secure. Let me show you the

unemployment figures. Your criticism has been that all the new jobs are

part-time. They are not now, they are full-time. Full-time

unemployment, up -- full-time employment, up 94,000. This is a

short time frame. It is since the recovery began. Half the jobs that

have been created since May 2010 have been part-time jobs. Roughly

107,000 people are working part-time who would like to work full-time.

Over the last 20 years, people now feel more insecure at work than

ever. The question is about what feel more insecure at work than

kind of growth and employment you are getting. The other point is the

uneven spread of this across our economy. In places like the

north-east and north-west, the Humber, the east of England, they

have seen unemployment increase. I agree that there was a regional

imbalance, but the service sector is growing, cheering and construction

are growing and financial services are in decline, so the rebalance is

happening. It is not happening to the degree we need to transform our

economy so that we have a long-term, sustainable model of

growth. That is why we need a comprehensive industrial strategy

that all of government works towards. Your party conference is

coming up. I am sure you are looking forward to it. Why do Ed Miliband's

approval ratings get worse the more people see of him? I don't accept

that. I have given you the figures. Polls go up and down. I have said

that on this programme before. But his approval rating has consistently

gone down. What actually matters our votes. Under Ed Miliband's

leadership, the Labour Party have votes. Under Ed Miliband's

put on almost 2000 extra councillors in places like Canada case, even

Whitney. What is wrong with Whitney? We have been putting on votes. Let

me show you this. This is the net satisfaction rating. Your leader is

now more unpopular than Gordon Brown was when he took Labour to the worst

defeat in living memory. Gordon Brown did not put on anything like

this number of councillors. Votes are what matter, Andrew. Few people

think Ed Miliband is a capable leader. Twice as many people think

over Spurs who lives on the moon. These are polls. If you are talking

to me about over Spurs lit, that puts this into context, Europe

session with polls! -- Elvis Presley. Since 2010, we have put on

thousands of members. Compare that to the Conservative Party, which has

not won a general election since 1992. They will not disclose their

membership figures. Why -- why won't you pledge to renationalise Royal

Mail? Because that would be like writing a blank cheque. We don't

know at the moment how much the government would receive for the

sale of Royal Mail? So how can I judge how much it would cost to buy

it back? That would be irresponsible. But the government

does not need to do this right now. The entire country is against it.

Sources in the City and Whitehall tell me that if Labour pledged to

renationalise it, it would kill off the flotation. So if you are against

it, why don't you do it? For me to pledge to renationalise Royal Mail

would be like writing a blank cheque. But if you put it in the

prospectus, people in the City, who know more about these things, say it

would not happen, so why not do it? Because that would be irresponsible.

It would be like writing a cheque for billions to renationalise Royal

Mail. You would not have too right at the check if it did not happen. I

have to deal with the facts. I am not good deal with the plot somebody

might be speculating about in the City. We have to be careful about

this. For me to pledge to renationalise it now would be like

writing a bank cheque . We are going to be a fiscally responsible

government. That is why I am not prepared to do that. Ed Balls will

not be talking to you. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

up in 20 minutes, On the Sunday Politics Wales, the

leader of the Welsh Conservatives says that other parties failed to

get the best out of budget deals with the Welsh government. We will

get the view from Glasgow as the Welsh Lib Dem leader rallies the

troops at her party's, but -- party's conference. Let's begin with

post office Royal Mail privatisation. The Communication

Workers Union say that strikes are inevitable. Labour opposed the

privatisation but they have -- the government have been clear that this

privatisation is going to happen. It is extremely disappointed that --

disappointing that the government has legislated for this to happen.

We are being asked to buy back what we already own. The people who got

us into the financial mess in 2008 are going to make a killing out of

this because they will buy up the shares cheap, sell off the prime

assets and then the Royal mail service will be even worse off than

it is at the moment. As Lee Hayes pointed out on the Andrew Marr show,

if the London tube can have permission to raise money in order

to invest, why can't Royal Mail? Clearly they need investment to keep

pace with modernisation but this is not the way to do it. The Royal Mail

is in profit, why does it need privatisation? I think it is the

only thing we can do under the circumstances. The mail industry has

been deregulated over the past few years, Royal Mail Haft to face

competition for parcels and bulk mail and I have struggled to bring

in the investment needed. -- Bay have to face. In terms of the staff,

I understand why they will be concerns but we are looking at a

model of cooperative working, where staff will receive 10% of the

shares, which is a major part in the see of the future of the Royal Mail.

When they consider the package being put in front of them I hope they

consider what an alternative future but the Royal Mail would look like.

This is just too sweet and an unacceptable policy. The leader of

the Welsh Conservatives says that other opposition parties in the

Assembly failed to get the best out of budget deals with the Welsh

government. Andrew RT Davies said he will not settle for chicken feed

but, with Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats agreeing with

cooperate, where does that leave the Conservatives?

Andrew RT Davies is gearing up for a new Assembly term and the Welsh

government's draft budget on the 8th of October. That budget will not go

anywhere and less Labour get help from another party. It has relied on

Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems so far but how much does the Tory leader

think they have got from it? If you have two -- you want to settle for

chicken feed, that is for others to decide. I do not believe that there

is pressure on the Welsh government. A farmer and a politician, he says

he will work with anybody but not if it means joining what he calls the

left wing club. What I want to deliver from the centre-right is

ambition, hope and opportunity and I will continue to map out the

alternative, which is what we have done in the first two years of this

Assembly by bringing forward policies like grammar schools,

regenerating the high streets, making sure our policies are a real

alternative to the cosy politics of the left wing club. The arithmetic

in the Assembly means that the opposition could gang up on car when

Jones and make things difficult for his minority government. With two of

the opposition leaders saying they will work together, does it mean

Andrew RT Davies will have to plough his own furrow? In June, Plaid

Cymru's leader and the Lib Dems' Kirsty Williams said they would team

up for the budget negotiations. I understand ministers have already

reached out to them over the summer. The deal with Labour last November

is worth about £50 million over two years but when the Welsh government

spends more than £14 billion every year was she bought off with small

change? I am not getting into trading with the Tories. We have a

set of proposals that we look forward to working with the Lib Dems

in good time. The leader of the Tories in Wales is in a position

either to support or not support whatever proposal we put forward and

when he is in a position to negotiate and do deals himself he is

in a position to trade insults but until then he is not in a good

position. Mr Davies says he gets one well enough with a Plaid Cymru and

Lib Dem leaders but it is a far cry from the plans for an -- a rainbow

coalition six years ago. Ultimately I can deliver my 14 members as a

voting bloc. Where we have been able to work together, in the budget

rounds, managing a vote of no-confidence the government, the

Ting pressure on the previous Education Minister, toughening up

legislation. -- putting pressure on. Where we can do that, we are driving

the agenda. He believes that he can make things difficult for Labour

before the next general election. He does not believe that Plaid Cymru

and the Lib Dems have left him out in the cold but will they want to

work at him when he is taking a dig at his budget deals?

Is settling for chicken feed your aim for autumn? We have negotiated a

deal that has targeted £16 million at the poorest children. That is not

much out of a £14.5 billion budget. I do not agree with him. -- the

money invested in the pupil premium has had a massive impact on our most

deprived communities. There are schools in our region, they have had

thousands of pounds of extra funding as a result of the deal we did. That

money has gone into employing extra teachers to make sure children who

are falling behind are able to catch up, to supporting children with

special educational needs, to investing in resources. It is about

giving young people the best start in life on it is working and it is

not insignificant. -- in life, it is working. It suits the Labour

government to give as little money as well, doesn't it -- is money --

as little money as way -- away as you can. Whatever we do we have to

make sure we use resources carefully. The pupil depravation

Grant is an important way of enabling all of our children to have

the best chance in life but that does not mean there is no room for

improvement in how schools are using it. I think Andrew RT Davies is very

good at making pompous statements but frankly it is unlikely that we

are going to be able to reach and work -- an arrangement with the

Conservatives because they have shown little interest in making sure

that we protect the most vulnerable in Wales. Obviously Carwyn Jones

will be talking to the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru. Andrew RT Davies

says he would like to make a deal with the government. Your party

leader and Leanne Wood have joined forces that these discussions. What

chance Andrew RT Davies joining in? If he wants to come to the table

with a realistic and not properly costed oppose all that will improve

the lives of people in Wales there is no reason why any of the parties

in the Assembly would not work with him. To date he has not been able to

do that. He seems to enjoy the knock-about party more than the

serious business of improving people' lives. -- people's lives.

They say it will be 1% of the budget. Is that true? We have to do

what we can with the money available and I do not think that is

realistic. I am confident that Carwyn Jones can reach an agreement.

Conference season is under way, kicked off by the Liberal Democrats,

who are meeting in Glasgow. Our correspondent has been speaking to

the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats.

In Glasgow the Lib Dems are gearing up for the next UK general

election, little more than 18 months away. Kirsty Williams is the leader

of the Welsh Lib Dems. So far in Scotland we have had an announcement

is -- announcements on school uniform in England, other things in

England, is there any point in the Welsh Lib Dems being here? Of

course, because some things are not evolved to Wales and we rely on

Westminster to get those things right. Yesterday I was talking about

plans to give small businesses in England and Wales and National

Insurance contribution break to help them take on members of staff. We

are pushing to realise our dreams of a fairer taxation system, moving the

threshold up so that people on lower incomes can keep more of their

money. Where would you get the money for that? Over 100,000 people in

Wales who were previously paying income taxes are now able to keep

that money. We have over 1 million taxpayers who have a tax break of

£700. We are talking about the ability to push that further so that

nobody on minimum wage should be paying income tax at all. We have

achieved that and it will only be achieved if we are in government. Is

that a red line or like university tuition fees, which you will dump

when you get in coalition? The number one manifesto commitment we

stood on was to create the fairer taxation system and we have done

that. We had commitments on the triple lock for pensioners... But I

would quite like to know if this new policy of extending it to people on

the minimum wage is a cast-iron commitment. It will be in our

manifesto and we will see who people vote for in the next general

election. We have 600 days before that general election and we are all

about demonstrating that we can produce a stronger economy and a

fairer society. In a survey of Lib Dem councillors, by and large they

would rather you were in coalition with Labour. Is that your view? At

the last election no party won an overall majority and my colleagues

took a brave decision to create a stable government with a majority.

It was not possible to do that with the Labour Party. At the next

election we will see what the people of the UK deliver and work with

other parties to form a strong government. What would be your

preference as a Lib Dem leader in Wales, somebody who will play a big

role in the election campaign? My job as a person responsible for

helping to deliver the campaign is to make sure that as many people as

possible here the Lib Dem message of what we have achieved in this

government, lifting people out of tax, creating jobs... You don't mind

who you end up in government with? I want to deliver as many Lib Dems as

possible to Westminster. I am not going to get an answer, and I? You

have to wait and see who the people of the UK decide. We want to create

a strong economy, get people back to work but make sure our society is

there, that everybody has a chance to get on. We can only do that by

having the Liberal Democrats in government after 2015. Before then

you have the Welsh government budget. Andrew RT Davies has said

that you have settled in the past for chicken feed, for small policies

that do not cost much money? That is an indictment of how the Welsh

Conservatives feel about the poorest in our society. We have achieved

additional money for education for our poorest students. Teachers and

pupils I need do not describe that as chicken feed. It says more about

the attitude of the Conservatives towards education and the poorest in

society then it does about the Lib Dems. We are giving people a chance

to get on and we want more money for the poorest children, for their sake

and for the sake of the Welsh economy. If the Tories are not

interested in that, that is disappointing but I am not changing

my tack, I care about the poorest children and a stronger economy in

Wales. Is education a priority view going into the next set of

negotiations? Of course. Why should a poor student in Wrexham get £50

extra than if they were over the border in Wales. Worst children are

in danger of being left behind. -- Welsh children. Education used to be

something we prided ourselves on but after a decade of Labour rule in

Cardiff we have slipped behind. I want to start with the children who

need help most and that is the poorest children. We will continue

pressing the Welsh Labour government to do the right thing by Wales'

children. Time will tell whether she enjoys

her weak or not. Let's look to the future rather than into the past.

Come the next election, if there was a hung parliament where would you

rather your party nailed your flag? We are party of the centre ground so

we are prepared to work with politicians from either side to get

the best for people. We have done that in Westminster, the only way to

form a stable government. We have done that in Wales with the Labour

Party to deliver things like the pupil premium which is having a

massive impact on the futures of Welsh children. So no answer there.

Jenny Rathbone, Kirsty Williams was scathing of education in Wales.

Perhaps a peculiar starting position for negotiations. We all recognise

that we need to improve our education system and the Welsh

government is improving it. She is blaming the Welsh Labour government

for the state of it. That is the kind of thing people do in politics.

We recognise we have to do better, we have to make sure we are doing at

least as well as the UK, that we have ambitions to do much better

than that. We need to have a skilled workforce and we are putting in

place a huge amount of effort to make sure more students are studying

maths, engineering, those subjects, so we need to make sure our

education service is serving the needs of individual pupils and also

the needs of our economy. Let's move back to the Lib Dems. We heard the

party chairman saying that Ed Miliband was a nice guy. He also

said he was an ethical guy and and effective guy. Are you pleased to

hear the Lib Dems reaching out to your party? Clearly the Lib Dems are

split on that. Kirsty Williams sat on the fence but the Lib Dems as a

group of individuals, at least half of them would prefer to be in

alliance with the Labour Party as opposed to a government that has

delivered a bedroom tax... But the Liberal Democrats are talking about

the economy. They are also talking about the bedroom tax. People

realise this is appalling policy. Not only does it make sure that the

very poorest are made even poorer, it is also going to increase the

bill for housing benefit. Or so the attitude towards immigration. --

also. Nick Clegg is washing his hands of these vans going around

saying, hand yourselves in before we arrest you. I think the Liberal

Democrats have difficult decisions ahead but I know that my

constituents, after 2010 they said, we did not vote Liberal Democrat to

have a Tory government, so in 2011 they voted Labour. The UK population

did not endorse Gordon Brown government, he was roundly rejected

at the election. We could not form a stable government with the Labour

Party. Gordon Brown had in roundly rejected. We are party of the centre

ground with or own identity. We are liberals, we have an identity and

ideology unique to us and we are able to work with both sides. It is

not a question of being in the closet about which side we would

like to work with, it is about being independent and pragmatic. We are

going to have to leave you. Time to have a quick look at the political

stories in 60 seconds. Swansea born former Shadow Welsh

Secretary Nigel Evans resigned after being charged with eight sexual

offences. He said he would robustly defend his innocence and sit as an

independent while the case continues.

Finance Minister said the Welsh government would take steps to

outlaw companies that lack the list when recruiting. -- the use

blacklisting. The Shadow Welsh Secretary said

privatisation was politically motivated and was aimed at filling

the whole of the Chancellor's failed economic plan. George Osborne said

privatisation would bring in a brilliant savers.

Rosemary Butler was named as Assembly Member of the year. The

Newport West Assembly Member is the first ever Presiding Officer of the

devolved institution in the UK. -- a devolved institution. -- female

residing officer. -- presiding. I know it is very important for all

of us and us in Wales because the outcome of the Scottish referendum

could leave to the whole of the UK unravelling. As Baroness Kennedy was

saying this morning on the papers show, there has not been a lot of

coverage about this important for random in the UK papers. Your party

are a federal party, I suppose you will not support independence. We

believe the nations of the UK are stronger together. But it does open

up the question of what is the nature of the relationship between

the nations. The nature of devolution in Wales is different to

Scotland. We would like to see that situation discussed. That is all

Scotland. We would like to see that more than pay is going up. Which

deserves a programme all to itself. In a moment, more from our political

panel, but first the news. Good afternoon. Nick Clegg says

victory for either the Conservatives Good afternoon. Nick Clegg says

or labour at the next election would put at risk the economic recovery

is. Speaking in Glasgow at the Liberal Democrat annual conference,

he said a coalition would allow his Liberal Democrat annual conference,

party to balance politics and enable the government to finish the job of

repairing the economy fairly. It is my genuine belief that if we go back

to the bad old days, not of coalition and Islands politics, but

of either the left or right dominating blood on their own, you

will get a recovery which is neither fair nor sustainable. Labour would

wreck the recovery, and under the fair nor sustainable. Labour would

Conservatives, who don't have fair nor sustainable. Labour would

same commitment to fairness as ours, you would get the wrong kind

of recovery. Two 19-year-old woman arrested after

a stabbing on Thursday have been released without charge. Police are

trying to discover if there is a link between the killing and a fire

four hours later in which four members of the same family died.

Five people are being questioned in connection with that blaze. A Syrian

government minister has described the agreement drawn up by America

and Russia to dispose of his country's chemical weapons as a

victory. The minister claims the deals helps

the Syrians out of a crisis and others war. The US Secretary of

State John Kerry is in Israel to brief the prime minister, Benjamin

Netanyahu, on the proposal. China and France have also welcomed the

deal, which says Syria has until Friday to submit a competence of

list of its chemical stockpile. Britain's Mo Farah has missed out on

winning his first half marathon by around one second.

He was taking part in the Great North Run between Newcastle and

South Shields. Farrar, who was the favourite following his two gold

medals at the athletics World Championships, lost out to

Ethiopian's can mean many Serb -- Kenenisa Bekele in a sprint finish.

A carnival atmosphere for the start of the 33rd Great North Run.

Thousands limbered up. For some, it was about the challenge. For others,

simply dressing up for fun. I am was about the challenge. For others,

walking it, so I have no time in mind. I just want to enjoy it and

appreciate the crowds and have a fantastic time. For elite athletes,

today's race was about who would be first over the line. Despite the

wind and rain, large crowds turned out for the world's most popular

half marathon, which attracts some of the finest women runners, two,

including the Kenyan. There were high hopes for Britain's double

Olympic champion Mo Farah, but after a long sprint finish in South

Olympic champion Mo Farah, but after Shields, he was narrowly beaten

Ethiopian's Kenenisa Bekele. It was a great race and a great finish. I

thought the pace was ridiculous. I thought I would come back and close

the gap slowly. I managed to close it a little bit, but you can't take

away what he has. Wheelchair athlete David Weir won his race for a fourth

time. More than £200 million has been raised since the Great North

Run began in 1981. That is it for now. There will be

more news on BBC One at 6:35pm. So, did anything happen while we

were away this summer? I thought not. Whereas British politics

heading now? Who better to answer than the best political panel we

could cobble together for a tenner? Even then, they are overpaid.

Putting foreign affairs to one side for a moment, it seems that what

happened mystically was that it became more apparent that some sort

of recovery was underway at last, and that Mr Miliband still has not

yet resonated with the British public. These things are a problem

for Labour. Ed Miliband's mistake over the summer holiday was to take

a summer holiday. And it looked like the rest of the Labour Party had

taken one too. They were not finding issues they could make their own.

The only person who made an impact was Stella Creasy on online abuse.

That is a huge problem, and it is partly down to the fact that there

is this intense message discipline. They don't want to say anything out

of line until they have got all their ducks in a row. It makes the

party do at the moment. The terms of trade have swung in David Cameron's

favour, but the political rhetoric is still with Mr Miliband. Let's

look at this headline from the Sunday Telegraph. That headline

might not be right, but the story is Sunday Telegraph. That headline

significant in that Mr Cameron is still in danger on his right flank

significant in that Mr Cameron is from UKIP, and Mr Miliband

significant in that Mr Cameron is doesn't need an enormous share of

the vote to get an overall majority? There is a danger here of

the vote to get an overall majority? Westminster group think. Of course

Ed Miliband is in trouble. The Tories are reserved and. They are

better organised, the economy is Tories are reserved and. They are

recovering. That poses difficulties for Labour, but if you look at what

is happening on the ground, UKIP still pose a danger to Cameron. They

don't need to poll 15% in a lot of those marginal seats, they just need

to get five or 6% of the vote, and that could potentially destroy the

Tory lead. Lots of commentators like to say, this guy will never be prime

minister, but it is possible that by default or by accident, in a very

fluid electoral situation, Ed Miliband could end up as prime

minister. It is still all to play for on both sides. If UKIP remains a

threat to the Tory right flank and the Tories themselves are not really

a national party any more, I am told they will only target a few seats in

Scotland, they don't get any big seats in the big cities of the north

any more, they don't get the Ulster vote they used to get, so it is

possible that Labour, which is more nationally based and has seats in

the Midlands and the north and in Wales, so they could get in. I

agree. The advantage of having a bad summer is that Ed Miliband can go to

his conference facing low summer is that Ed Miliband can go to

expectations. All he has to do is not dribble on the lectern, and it

will be written up as spectacular. not dribble on the lectern, and it

He might not even use a lectin. Structurally, he is in a good

position. The electoral vagaries of Structurally, he is in a good

the system work in his favour. He still has a narrow poll lead, he is

not out of the game at all. Of the three main party leaders, the only

one who can be confident about being three main party leaders, the only

in government after 2015 is Nick Clegg. David Cameron faces a

difficult structural position electorally. But if it is this bad

for Labour at the moment, what will it be like if this recovery turns

out to be real? It depends how much they succeed. Chuka Umunna was

shifting the debate are living standards. They don't want to keep

arguing about who called it right. Do people feel richer than they were

in 2010? The data suggests that people don't feel richer than in

2010. Because they are not.That is the basis on which Labour will fight

the next election. It is clear that Labour are unclear on what to say or

do next. They have just got to hope and pray that the economy is not as

soundly based as it appears to be and that George Osborne is Tony

Barber, who thought he fixed the economy in the 1970s and hadn't,

just before the next crash. There are all sorts of uncertainties -

China, the bond market, the housing bubble might be blown up, and Labour

just had to hope something goes wrong for Osborne. Chuka Umunna said

he would not get rid of help to buy. There are all these criticisms about

he would not get rid of help to buy. artificial schemes pumping up house

prices, but he would not say that. It is tortuous. You see this again

and again. When asked if Labour would repeal the bedroom tax, or the

same thing with Royal Mail, it happens again. They will be falling

on people who have not had a meal in years because there is so little

on people who have not had a meal in coming out of the Labour Party.

There is a kind and Gillette in with them to a politician's career. When

they are under attack for a long time, the media get bored after a

while and switch the story. It happened to Osborne, who had a

horrific 2012 and has recovered this year. It will probably happen

Miliband. He can't keep getting as bad press as he is getting at the

moment, because people find it tedious. Syria has been the big

foreign-policy event this summer. It has remarkably led to a Soviet-

foreign-policy event this summer. It American initiative to get Syria to

give up its chemical weapons. The world will now expect the Assad

regime to live up to its public commitments. As I said at the outset

of these negotiations, there can be no games, no room for avoidance or

anything less than full compliance. John Kerry. Is this too good to be

true? Even superficially, it is not very good. The only people who

emerge with any sense of triumph are the Russians, who have had their

emerge with any sense of triumph are biggest diplomatic coup. They are

back on the stage again. B if you want to know why Putin even has a

back on the stage again. B if you constituency in Russia, it is

because of moments like this. They were humiliated after the end of the

Cold War, and a Nou Camp is a great power again. Then you have the Obama

situation, because he has ended up where he wanted to end up. He has

situation, because he has ended up avoided war and extracted a

situation, because he has ended up concession from Syria, but the way

he got there was so concession from Syria, but the way

made him look weak and erratic as a leader. There were contradictions

between himself and his Secretary of State last week, and it has not done

him any good. I was in the States, and it was open season on him. I

have never understood the idea of chemical weapons as a red line when

you can massacre people in their thousands through other means. But

everybody seems to agree that chemical weapons are beyond the

pale. The rebels are miserable. We have run out of time. I will have to

ask you what you think about Syria next week, which gives you time to

prepare. Your book on Fred the shred is going well? It is.I am back

tomorrow at noon with the Daily Politics at noon on BBC Two, where

we will have more from the Liberal Politics at noon on BBC Two, where

Democrat conference in Glasgow. It is the start of our Daily Politics

conference coverage. Next week, we is the start of our Daily Politics

will be back here at our normal time of 11am, when we will be joined by

the Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps. Remember, if it is

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.