22/09/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the

rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference

this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics

poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a

good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?

Back in Westminster, they're partying like it's 2006, as Damian

McBride's memoirs re-ignite the Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell

will tell us why he is sickened by the former Brown spin doctor.

And speaking of political infighting, Conservative Party

Chairman Grant Shapps will give his response to the rampant Tory-bashing

Later in the programme. As Labour at the Lib Dem Conference

Later in the programme. As Labour gather in Brighton, we hear from

shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith on public services and special

advisers. business. In London, Labour commands

over the two thirds of the ethnic minority vote but now stands accused

of institutional racism. Are they right? With me, the best and the

brightest political panel in the business. Isabel Hardman, Janan

Ganesh and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting like demented Damians

throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.

Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.

Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and

spending commitments are coming thick and fast. Not before time,

according to the Labour leader's critics. He's been out and about

this morning and told Andrew Marr that he knew it was going to be a

tough fight in the run up to 2015. It is about a party that lost office

three years ago. We are trying to be It is about a party that lost office

a one term opposition. That is tough. I believe it is a fight that

we can win and I am up for that fight. The stakes are so high for

young people who want a job, for people whose living standards are

being squeezed. For people who think that this is not good enough for

Britain. So what do key Labour Party activists - its councillors - think

about the direction Mr Miliband is taking their party? Adam Fleming is

in Brighton at the Party Conference with all the details of our latest

exclusive Sunday Politics survey. Labour have unwrapped their

conference set. Let us unwrap them. Labour have unwrapped their

With the help of an opinion poll we surveyed 1350 Labour councillors

across England and Wales. We wanted to find out what they think as

Labour gathers for its conference. The Labour leader warmed up for the

week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great

week by taking to his soap box in be here. In our survey 31% of

councillors said they did not think Ed Miliband was doing a good job as

leader. 30% said they thought the party would have a better chance if

someone else was in charge at the next election. You will see more of

Ed Miliband as we run-up to general election. He has been in the job for

Ed Miliband as we run-up to general three years! Now it is crunch time.

The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked by roughly one third of the party as

well. Ed Balls is not a pop your man. He says things and he speaks

his mind. -- not a popular man. Sometimes he is not the most

diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not seem to be that bothered about our

survey. Over at a conference centre the exhibitors were starting up.

When it comes to relations with trade unions, the majority of Labour

councillors thought things were absolutely fine. Just 9% thought

things with the unions were a little bit too close. Tricky because Ed

Miliband want to loosen the link. The shadow environment secretary

arrived in Brighton ride bicycle from London to raise money for

charity. When we as Labour councillors what they would do if

the next election results in a hung parliament, just over half said they

would tell the lid Dems to get on their bikes. We would never say no

to going into coalition. It gives us the chance to be in government and

prepare some of the damage of the last three years. So are you going

to start being nice about the Lib Dems? I always treat them with

courtesy. And the parties admitted that perhaps they had opened the

door to too many immigrants. It in our survey Labour councillors of

warming the felt that immigration had been positive for the UK.

We're now joined by the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel

Reeves. Good morning. Let us start with Ed Miliband. Is it true that

the team insisted that he be called the leader? I just call him Ed and I

think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet do. Do you welcome working for a

leader that says he is winning back socialism? We are a democratic

socialist party. We make no apologies for that. The most

important thing is that we have the apologies for that. The most

policies that will improve people 's lives and tackle the cost of living

policies that will improve people 's crisis facing so many families.

Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all

policies that I think the country are calling out for after three

years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages

for 38 out of the 39 months but David Cameron has been Prime

Minister. I think that is the most important thing. So it is OK now to

risk their to the Labour Party again as the Socialist party? The clue is

in the name, we stand up for working people. You are socialist party

according to the leader. We have always been the Labour Party, that

is our name and we stand up for working people, not the privileged

few like this government with their tax cuts for millionaires. Those are

policies that help just the privileged few. The Labour Party is

about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your

run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour

councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he

cannot convince his own councillors, who can he convince?

Well you could say that two thirds of councillors think that he is the

Well you could say that two thirds right leader. But these are Labour

councillors. The overall majority of Labour councillors think that he is

doing a good job. What matters is the results on election day. Two

doing a good job. What matters is thirds of councillors think that he

is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this

week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well

week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will

also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding

apprenticeships, giving a break to hard-working families who are

struggling. I think people will see what kind of a leader that he is.

Well he has a mountain to climb among all voters. Let me ask the

question. Just 12% see him as a Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%

see him as a natural leader. Why? If Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%

you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in

those polls. It is hard being leader of the opposition, you cannot

those polls. It is hard being leader demonstrate how you would be Prime

Minister. By nature you are in opposition. But he has taken on

Rupert Murdoch and the press barons. That is strong leadership, standing

up to the vast majority. If you look at his reforms to our relationship

with the trade unions, strengthening ties with individual members. I

think that he is a strong leader making the right decisions. If that

is the case, why has the Labour lead gone from 14 points one year ago to

at most four points now. What went wrong? Well we are six or eight

points ahead in the polls today. We are six or eight points ahead in the

polls today. We're still consistently ahead. It looks as if

we would get an overall majority if consistently ahead. It looks as if

there was an election tomorrow. But we have more work to do to convince

more people to vote for Labour. But this is a historic challenge, to be

a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the

next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The

big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary

school children. How much will that cost? When Labour were in

government, they ring fenced money to provide after-school --

after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring

fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools

within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they

can charge for children to come to their first clubs. But this is a

policy that does not involve additional money. As it was under

policy that does not involve the last Labour government it will

be about ring fencing money because we think that this is a priority.

This is something that the schools should do. You cannot ring fenced

money you do not have. You saying you could provide wraparound

childcare for every family schoolchild from eight o'clock in

the morning until six o'clock at night and it will not cost any more

money? Well we did ring fence that money in the last Labour government.

That money is gone! It has not gone. It is about priorities and we are

saying that it should be a priority to provide that wraparound care. So

where is the money being spent now that you would take it from? If we

look at some of the things that this government is doing, building free

schools in areas where there are already enough. That is capital

spending. We are ring fencing that many. Again, it is different

priorities. We had the ring fence when we were in government. It would

be reintroduced so that schools had to offer that wraparound care. Of

course schools can charge a small to offer that wraparound care. Of

fee for their breakfast clubs and after-school DVDs. But the important

fee for their breakfast clubs and thing is that provision is there for

parents going out to work. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband are at the heart of

the Brown project. Damien Wright was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable

that they did not know what he was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable

up to. It is inconceivable that they did not -- Damian McBride. I am

asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.

I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know

that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.

He has led by example. There is not that backstabbing going on. There is

He has led by example. There is not no plotting against Ed Balls going

on? I do not see that. And anyone who briefed against colleagues

should be sacked, I agree with that. Nick Clegg's conference speech made

it clear he was repaired to work with Ed Miliband in the event of a

hung parliament. Are you excited by that prospect or is it just boring?

That is very generous of Nick Clegg to say that. With his poll ratings

of 9%. I think it is up to the to say that. With his poll ratings

general public to decide who they want to form a government. We are

campaigning for an overall Labour government at the next election. Are

you excited by the prospect, or is that just boring boring? I want to

serve in a Labour government is not a coalition government. That is what

we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards, what

has Ed Miliband got to do this week? He has got to start to win the

argument about the economy. I think they will be quite clever on that in

terms of saying that the recovery has begun but it is not going to

benefit many of the voters. Unlike previous economic recoveries. That

is a strong line and they need to make that again and again. The

recovery has barely started. The make that again and again. The

interesting thing, Isabel, they want to make a living standards the issue

now because growth has returned, let's return to living standards

which have been squeezed. The polls show that twice as many people blame

Labour for the living standards than the Conservatives. It is a great

scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce

big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the

economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of

fixing the recovery now and then we'll focus on living standards,

whereas Labour is trying to say, you cannot quite trust us with the

economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's main

job this week is to begin elucidating policies and not just

themes, and that makes him elucidating policies and not just

incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy

for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition

something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes

you bold rubble and you can see that coming through already before the

conference has started. You have sketchy ideas on child, --

childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free? --

can he provide wraparound childcare for free? I don't even know what it

is. Opposition is emphatically an art form, and the art form, and the

artform for them at the moment is to announce policies without spending

any money and it is very difficult to do. You gave an illustration of

how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to

announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately

say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend

a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything. This

a penny on it, because they are is where it an artform. The tax

suspension before and election is crazy, because they will find money

one way or another, but in another way, they cannot say we will spend

money on this. It is a real problem. How do you measure the state of the

coalition after the Liberal Democrat conference? The Liberal Democrats

were in a very strong position after their conference, Nick Clegg had

faced and activists on some issues, including fracking, which they

supported, which seem to be the most important part of the conference. In

terms of the coalition, the Tories have had to sit and watch as Vince

Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have basically criticised them and said

Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have they are evil and only the Lib Dems

can make sure the Government is fair and works properly. So in terms of

how the coalition works, you can expect to see some revenge at the

Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick Clegg's followers, they had their

revenge. Mister Clegg may have convinced his own activists to stay

revenge. Mister Clegg may have behind him, but he has a bigger

challenge, which is called convincing the British people. There

is some interesting polling they have done privately that suggests

there is a market of about 25% of the electorate which is plausibly

open to them, and all they have to do is target policies remorselessly

at that group, rather than the broader public, in order to do well

enough at the next election to hold the balance of power. That is why

policies that seem weird to us, like free school meals regardless of

income, may perversely make sense to them. Because it appeals to their

demographic. It is a strange political world we are in, the

Labour strategists think they political world we are in, the

win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going to concentrate on 25. The Tories

have seized to be a national party any more. We haven't been used to it

for a long time. In the 80s, one party dominated, the Tories. In the

90s into the 21st century, the party dominated, the Tories. In the

policy matter delayed the Labour Party dominated. -- the Labour party

dominated. We are now here but we have other parties hoping that 36%

will give them a small overall have other parties hoping that 36%

majority and it is the best they can get. It is a very odd situation

where the main two parties feel they can lose and the Lib Dems are openly

targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long

way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about

all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for the

Conservatives to say that he is blocking all of the things that

voters outside of our bays are interested in, top immigration

policy, human rights reform, that sort of thing. David Cameron can say

that in Manchester next week. One thing was quite clear, it came out

of this awayday, and and this is this, that when you look at Mister

Miller band's polls, the Tories are going to make this a presidential

election -- Ed Miliband's polls. Which is why I am curious why they

are not more keen on TV debates. When the strength of your party is

the visibility of your leader against his opponents, why not have

him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.

Let's turn now to the coalition. The past week has given us inklings of

how the yellow half of the Government is planning on fighting

how the yellow half of the the General Election.

When the Lib Dems gathered for their annual shindig in Glasgow, some

ministers were non-too complimentary about their blue blood fellows. --

bedfellows. Vince Cable led the way in stick in the boot in, saying the

Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their

politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

the Lib Dems had champion, such as and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime

Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories

from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,

no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections

in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade

being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders

shake hands again after the 20 15th election, what policies were David

Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No matter how many times Nick Clegg

says no? matter how many times Nick Clegg

And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday Interview.

Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick Clegg, Doctor Know himself,

self-styled. He boasted to his conference that he had stopped the

Tories from going ahead with 16 policies in government. Is this

accurate? I don't know but what I can tell you, as your commentator

Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a

majority government sent out to be very popular things, like reforming

the human rights act and some of the problems that provides when it comes

to sending people who have no right to be in this country back. So there

may be some things we could have made progress on. You are in

government, did he stop the inheritance tax cut? I don't know

the details, but I think it is absolutely true to say that

coalitions are a process of negotiation and sometimes you can't

get everything you want, and we had done the best, given where the

electoral maths left us. That is why 70 people in this country say they

would rather see a single party running the country -- why so many

people. I have to say I agree. They are not sure which single party.

Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you had

had a majority in 2010 and were not held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking

the one I just mentioned would be the Human Rights Act. In This

Country, we have had 1,000 years of developing the law and we are more

than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left

the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process

of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would

like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country

has a great future but we can only grasp that country if we make

ourselves the best place in the world to come and set up a business.

ourselves the best place in the If we make ourselves the best place

in Europe to develop jobs and entrepreneurship and I think there

are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.

And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what

ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It

has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election

will come, we know it is in May 2015 but that is in part being in a

coalition. The Tories wouldn't have done that? It wasn't the plan of any

party to go from... In the old days, there would have been speculation.

You turned it into a national debate, you changed the British

constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated

on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there

was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me

that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here

it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided

stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been good

for the economy. we will chalk that up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about

taking people out of tax, the Lib Dems did that question mark it is a

great policy. It is a conservative led government, it is a Conservative

government massively Chancellor. This is a screen grab from your

party's website, income tax cut to 25 million people. You are taking

the credit for it, it wouldn't have happened without the Lib Dems. It

certainly came about because of the coalition and we put it in the

coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative

Chancellor making it happen. It is have happened without a Conservative

right, 25 million people taken out of tax. Another 17 by this April

will not be paying tax at all. you didn't want to do it. Look at what

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during the leaders debate in 2010.

What Nick Clegg is promising is a £17 billion tax cut. We are saying,

stop the waste of 6 billion to stop the national insurance rise. I would

love to take everyone out of their first £10,000 of income tax, it is a

love to take everyone out of their beautiful idea but we cannot afford

it. It wasn't in your manifesto. Mister Cameron said it was

unaffordable and now you are taking the credit for it. I feel like it is

having a three year afterwards argument, and we got into coalition

because the British people put us there and we agreed to make the best

of it. And as it happens, if you want to hear a confession, I

absolutely think it is the right thing to take as many people out of

tax entirely as possible. Two points 7 million people pay no tax at all

because of this rise in the threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm

pleased it worked out. What are the most important thing is a majority

Tory government would do after 2015, unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I

think produce even more jobs when unemployment goes down, because we

think produce even more jobs when are the most entrepreneurial place

to set up a business. Are more free-market economy? We make our

money because we are out global trading economy. That is why it is

so important that we have to make sure it is easy to trade around the

world. One simple example, it is crazy in my view that we have global

tariffs that prevent some of the hardest other countries in the

world, in developing parts of the world, from exporting to us and vice

versa. I'm giving you a platform of things that I think we would be more

interested in progressing in. It sounds like you are talking about

even more Thatcherite, market led agendas. I think that you did a huge

amount to show this country that if you want to help the least well off

people in society, and the least well off people in the world, around

the globe, the way to do it is to trade, and I think we should have an

economy which is much more open to free trade. If there is another hung

parliament, and the poll suggest there might be, at the moment it is

all to play for on both sides, what would your non-negotiable Red Line

speak? We are still two years away from that, it is a long way away,

but there is a lot we want to lay out. What we are going to be saying

to this country is most people want a single party running the country,

they think it is clean and clear and you don't end up with negotiation

after an election. We will be setting out a very clear platform

which will be for hard-working people in this country who want to

work hard and get on in life. We would, I think, want to see the

welfare state that we have got into, where it is no longer about helping

those most in need but became a situation where you are better off

not working than in worker, I think we plan to ensure that this is an

incredibly fair place to go out and do a day's work and get the money at

the end of the day rather than thinking there is an alternative.

you have promised a referendum on UK membership of the EU in 2017, that

must be your first Red Line? We are clear, we want to see a referendum,

a reform European Union. So no poll... ? I should remind viewers

that there is an act of Parliament, a bill going through Parliament

right now, for a referendum on the EU, which comes back to the House.

It is past the report stage and comes back in November and we will

be discussing it. The Lib Dems, Labour, will have an opportunity to

be discussing it. The Lib Dems, support what the British people

want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future

coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to have

a say. You will know from our manifesto. What is wrong with yes or

no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project

beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the

negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how

much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.

Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you

feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most

vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.

And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so

much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether

with Mr King? I do not think it is terribly helpful for any Cabinet

minister to make comments like that. What I would say is that Nick Clegg

minister to make comments like that. is the leader of the Lib Dems and

entitled to have a view on it himself. Look at these figures on

party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr

Cameron became leader? I would like it to be more. But I think the world

has changed. People do not rush out and join political parties as they

used to. Instead they support you in different ways. If I released the

number of people who give to the party in different ways, through

donations for example, through friend memberships. If you include

that that figure goes back up. But your membership has fallen by 50% at

a time when UKIP has doubled. I do not want to to misinterpret what I

want to say. It is important to gain members. I think we will have done

that by the time of the next election. But one statistic of

interest, in the last election I had a 17,000 majority in my own

constituency. The difference was I had 1000 people helping me to

deliver leaflets and knock on the doors. The Conservative party has

changed. We now have an army of people, volunteers who are not

necessarily traditional members. The days when you expect people to give

you £25, before you accept their support, those days have passed. You

spoke about your most vulnerable marginal seats. This is a poll from

Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most marginal seats that you will be

defending. Labour is way up, you are marginal seats that you will be

way down and UKIP is also up. What is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both

are moving to Labour. And disillusioned Conservatives are

moving to UKIP. If these figures came at an election he would lose 32

of these 40 seats. The point about any opinion poll is that it is

perhaps accurate at the moment it is taken. We are now in a position

where the economy has turned the corner. The right thing to do was to

deal with the deficit. The people being asked about these things, they

will be interested in their own standard of living. Their mortgage

payments. Why are you doing worse in the marginal seats? National League

you are kind of nip and tuck with Labour. Well if that is the pick to

come 2015, people will see that this government has stuck to its guns. It

come 2015, people will see that this did not go for more borrowing and

spending. And the record demonstrates that the last thing you

want to do is give the car keys back to the people who crashed it in the

first place. Lynton Crosby at this away day of Conservative MPs, his

one message was to go all out and attack Ed Miliband. It is going to

be a nasty election. That is actually not true. We are going to

focus on his policies, if he finally announces some. Everything we have

seen so far suggests it would mean more borrowing and spending. The

shadow chancellor said we would be ruthless, just a few months later,

27.9 pounds of extra spending committed by Labour. These are your

figures. I will speak to you about that during the Tory conference.

It's just after 11:30. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair Campbell gives us his

not-too-positive review of Damian McBride's memoirs. Until then, the

Sunday Hello and on the Sunday Politics

Wales. As the Autumn conference bandwagon moves on to Brighton, we

hear from Labour MP and shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith.

A bullish UKIP leader Nigel Farage talks up his party's chances at

Welsh ballot boxes. Joining me throughout today's

programme are Labour's Paul Murphy and the Conservative Nick Ramsay.

Good morning to you both. Let us begin with some headlines for the

Labour Party in the papers. Not about the conference that about the

book by the former spin doctor. Were you aware of the activities? No, I

did not know him or anything about him. He should have gone before.

That sort of stuff is not good in politics and it is no coincidence

that he is coming out with this stuff at the same time as the Labour

Party conference. Presumably, to get more money out of it. People of my

generation never knew anything about that type of thing in politics. This

is not the way to conduct political business. In terms of Gordon Brown,

there were people around him that were aware of it. I use a plate he

lasted so long? A lot of these things are done in an individual

way. The spin doctor is something you do personally but up you go onto

the computer and talk to people and follow up people and all the rest of

it. Essentially, a lot of this was things he did himself and many

people were not aware of it. When it came out, it was good that he went.

That type of activity does not fit in with healthy politics. I use a

prize to be reading about things that happened seven or eight years

ago? It is great for other parties. The public thinks politics is all

about the public face of politicians. But people behind the

scenes are there. As we go along in political life, it is worth being

aware of what people can say about you and how you manage that when it

comes out. It is good to have transparency but a lot of parties

get embarrassed when the truth comes out.

Time now to hear from the Labour Party conference in Brighton where

our correspondent David Cornock has been talking to the shadow Welsh

Secretary, Owen Smith. Here in Brighton, we are starting to get a

sense of the policies Labour will fight the next general election on.

That is find out more from the Shadow Welsh Secretary. You can now

answer the question you and said a few months ago, what will Labour do

about the benefit cuts? I said we should reverse the bedroom tax and

repeal it. I am delighted to say that we are now saying categorically

that we will reverse the bedroom tax and scrap it when we are elected in

2015. When Labour is in government, the first thing you will do is but

welfare bills up and start a process that involves taxpayers subsidising

people with spare bedrooms? The problem with the bedroom tax is

sevenfold. It will not work. It will not lead to rehousing. The houses

into which people are meant to move simply are not there. The £470

million saving the government is anticipating will not work. It will

not achieve the shift in people and big properties to small properties.

Crucially, it is just plain not fair and wrong. I was at the conference

with a Welsh tenants and residents, people being affected by the bedroom

tax this week. People were horrified at the prospect of having to move

out of communities and houses at which they had lived for 20 or 30

years. It is not fair. We will pay for it by closing loopholes and we

will pay for it by closing loopholes which affect the construction

industry. We have spelt out how we will pay for it. A guaranteed

wraparound childcare from eight in the morning until six at night in

English schools. When will we see that in Wales? Soon, I hope what it

is more difficult in ways to make decisions on a budget that is much

smaller. But you will stick to the Conservative spending? Crucially,

the Labour Party in Wales has gone a long way down the road to dealing

with the problems of childcare. We have already dealt with, for

example, offering free school breakfasts. In the quarters of a

Welsh schools at the moment, we would like to go further. -- in

three quarters. We have to recognise that budget for the Welsh assembly

went up every year until the Conservatives came in and now it has

declined. Our racket in terms of providing a proper budget for Wales

is something we are proud of. -- our racket. Who runs public services in

Wales? In the book, I talk about all sorts of things. People have lost

faith in institutions, the BBC being one of them, that we used to put

such faith in. It is to be held close to people 's hearts. It was

cherished. One of the problems with the more consumerist, at, fragmented

society that we have become, we no longer invest the same deal trust. I

am not talking specifically about Wales in that chapter, I am talking

about all of our society. We need to get back to the sense that we have

got to trust in institutions and we have institutions that are

delivering for people. As most people who experienced the NHS will

tell you, they have terrific experience. Ask the people

collectively whether they think the NHS or other institutions I like and

you will get a different answer. We say in the book, one nation Labour

wants to represent people of all classes across all parts of the

country. We went to a public services. -- we won't say public

services. -- we want to have say it public services.

I was a special adviser in the Northern Ireland office. The crucial

thing, this is ancient history. Yesterday 's men are warming over

yesterday 's deeds. Ed Miliband was part of the government, as was I. He

has no truck with that sort of briefing. That is old politics. The

clear message coming out of this conference is that we need to deal

with a crisis in living standards but we also need to deal with a

crisis in people 's faith in politics. The Labour Party wants to

reinvest faith in politics by being clean and full of integrity and

honesty in what we do. Ed Miliband exemplifies that new politics. I am

confident he will be able to express that and win over the British

people. I went with talking about the announcement by Ed Miliband that

Labour would abolish the bedroom tax. What is your response to that?

Dear me, what a pickle they have got themselves into. They knew they are

on a sticky wicket here. They try to lampoon the bedroom tax. They know

the fans are not there to have the spare subsidy. I feel sorry for some

people in the party who are trying their best to do the best with the

hand they have been dealt with. The Labour Party had better grow up and

be proper opposition pretty quick. You have been in opposition and

government. We talked before the programme that it is difficult for

opposition to decide when to introduce policies before an

election. Do you think Ed Miliband has taken the right decision to

start making policy announcements now? It is 20 months away from the

general election. It seems to me he has to start putting down policy

initiatives. The whole package comes when the manifesto comes out. You

have to put in a complete package so people will know where the money is

coming from. That will come at the time of a general election. You

cannot have the next 20 months without policies. What do you make

of the policies that have been announced? Scrapping the bedroom

tax, there was one on immigration as well. Adults the of things you are

happy to hear about? -- are those the kind of things you are happy to

hear about? I am. That is a huge impact on the cost of living for the

cost of living that people are struggling to live. They pay does

not keep up with the prices. The zero hour contact, the bedroom tax.

It is a wicked tax. Are you pleased your party will abolish it? Yes, we

are seeing the impact. People do not have anywhere to move to. You do not

have the privilege to move people in the bedroom houses to two bedroom

houses. The public have a lack of an idea of the over arching strategy

the Labour Party has. It is not enough to sit from the sidelines

carping. Owen Smith has alluded to that. A number of people in the

Labour Party are worried about where the party is. Just being negative

and attacking. It has taken this long for the Labour Party to say

they do not want the spare bedroom subsidy. It is just a vacuum. I

honestly do not know where Ed Miliband thinks he is taking your

party. Let us concentrate on Ed Miliband. Opinion polls of Labour

councillors suggest they are not sure he is prime minister material.

Two thirds of people asked said they did not think he was up for the job

-- up to the job. I think a lot of policy initiatives will come out in

the next week. A lot of people will see how courageous he is in the way

he dealt with the Murdoch press and how he dealt with cilia and a few

weeks ago. Opinion polls come and go. They do not have any reality at

the time of a general election. 20 months ago, he was a different man.

He grows in stature. Our conference season coverage

continues now with the UK Independence Party. They met in

London over the weekend. It was their 20th anniversary conference

was according to party leader, their first in the political mainstream.

The headlines were stolen by a member and comments about women who

do not clean behind the fridge. I caught up with the leader and asked

him if his party still wanted to abolish the National Assembly? No.

That was old UKIP thinking that we should pretend devolution was not

happening was up under my leadership, that has been reversed.

We have had two referendums in Wales that has shown that. We are moving

towards a more central model. That does not mean that we can ask for

more devolution. We accept it. Your MVP went to the assembly to be

abolished -- M E P. That is politics. Some people have different

views. He says many people within the party feels the same as him. He

may set up another party to campaign for the assembly to be abolished.

Very good luck to him. UKIP has been going 20 years. It has taken us 20

years to get where we are. Anyone who thinks they can start another

party and get to where we are, they have another thing coming. You want

to win seats at Westminster. You have no seats in Cardiff Bay. You

polled less than 5% of the vote last time. A lot has changed since then.

UKIP Wales has woken up to the reality of where we stand where

there is perhaps our policy was not clear last time. UKIP has changed

from being a party that people vote for in the European elections and

ignore at local elections and national genital elections. The

evidence for that happened in -- genital

bone Nigel Farage was talking about putting meat on the bone. I do not

think people have many ideas about what the party once. He is saying it

is all different. But these can change their views? I am pleased he

has caught up with where Nick Bourne was ten years ago. It is

interesting. As Democrats, we like people to come forward with

different views. As far as a serious party goes, I cannot see them in

power. Maybe I am wrong, maybe the public would think we are wrong and

they are the people to go for. I cannot see that party working

nationally or internationally at this stage.

Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the

week in sixty seconds. Carwyn Jones said devolution had

been scattered and needed to move to a lasting settlement. He said there

should be an end to the 15 years of ad hoc tinkering with the

Constitution. He called for a new written constitution. But

Conservatives condemned National Grid plans to build a 33 mile power

cable route for proposed wind farms in mid Wales. The Montgomeryshire MP

said much of the group would be above ground and a blight on the

landscape. The Plaid Cymru leader criticised a proposition for

probation officers. John Griffiths urged people to get on their bikes

for health and economic benefits. You will be getting on your bike

down to Cardiff Bay this week. It has been a long recess? It is always

the same. You go back to your constituency and get embroiled in

the issues there. Coming back is always strange. Paul Murphy has been

voting on military action in Syria at the same time? Yes, but they have

a thesis for party conferences which we do not have. We do not have our

cycle is ready to go cycling out of the studio. You are working on a

task force for the worst government to get more people from

comprehensives in Wales in Wales into Oxbridge. I am going to West

Wales this week to see how they tackle this issue. The reason for

this is that the number of young people actually getting into Oxford

and Cambridge has dropped dramatically in Wales. More people

go to Oxford and Cambridge from Eton and the whole of Wales. That is not

right. Why is it important that they go there? It is not important in the

fact that other universities are not good, but Oxford and Cambridge are

among the top universities in the world. We should not deny the

opportunity to young people who want to go there. They are recognised and

over the last number of years, students simply have not aspired to

go to Oxford and Cambridge. We have to change that and hopefully, when

they have gone there, they can come back to Wales and the things they

have learned and the talent and experiences they have developed will

work in the interest of Welsh people.

That's all from me this week. The assembly is back this week. It's

back now to assembly is back this week. It's

much. Leafing through the papers the assembly is back this week. It's

last few days has taken me back to my youth. The halcyon days of the

2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who

should run the Labour Party. Gordon Brown's chief spin doctor Damian

McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his enemies - has published his memoirs,

timed for maximum impact in the week of Labour's Conference. They detail

how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet

Ministers - Labour Cabinet Ministers, that is - and fought

tooth and nail to promote the man he called "the greatest man he ever

met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us now is Tony Blair's former Director of

Communications, Alastair Campbell. You are angry about what he has done

in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it

in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at this

time. But also because of the lies that he told at the time that he now

confirms. I was director of communications and trying to hold

the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and

others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.

I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage

where I said if Whelan does not go, I will go. And when Damian McBride

was on the scene I was clear that I was not going to have anything to do

with him. Because of what he is now admitting to, I think they played

quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the

public were being fed by them, this narrative, the whole time. That

Blair was useless, Charles Clarke was useless. And I think that we

where the government and had very good ministers trying to do big

things for the country. I said this morning it was like being a foot

tall team were on the pitch you had your own players kicking the star

players. That is why I am angry your own players kicking the star

about it because I think they helped usher in a conservative government.

If we had all stuck together I think we would still be there. The Tories

If we had all stuck together I think did not win the last election, that

If we had all stuck together I think is a reasonable point. But surely

they were only doing that to undermine Tony Blair and to promote

their man, Gordon Brown. It is inconceivable then that Gordon Brown

did not know about it. Well in spite of everything I always had a

reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge

reasonably good relationship with him a lot about what Whelan was

doing. He would always say, I will sort it out. Another thing that

annoys me is this sense put forward by the right wing media that there

was this sense of equivalence. People like Steve who I have known

for years, there is not a single journalist with the very occasional

exception where I lost my temper, who would honestly be able to tell

you that I ever breathed against ministers. That was my golden rule.

So we were presented as being... People say you were the forerunner.

I know it was not the case. One of the reasons why I do despise what

they did, the whole spin thing which Peter and I are probably most

associated with, once I wrote a Peter and I are probably most

piece where I spoke about the journalists as the spin doctors. But

actually within the government, I journalists as the spin doctors. But

had a principle of maximum openness and trust. Anyone could come to the

morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as

part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not

coming. Because I knew where it was coming from. Did you know that the

time but Charles Clarke and others were effectively being destroyed

from within the Labour government? I certainly knew that they thought

that. I did know journalists telling me that that was what was happening.

Ultimately, this is why I never buy this thing that you can blame

leaders, it is ultimately up to the litre. Possibly in a different age

Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a

great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible

people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and

giving him and the Labour Party and politics a bad name. That is why I'm

still angry about Damian McBride. What do you make of it? The current

administration is a contrast. We have rival factions occupying the

same offices but they still get on. The only time they have a row is

when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing

Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

I would assume so. I spoke with him about it at the time. He told me at

the time that he had spoken about it with Gordon Brown. So I think there

was a concern from within that camp about some of these activities at

the time. With this myth of equivalence, in life you expect to

the time. With this myth of see that there is full on both

sides. But I do not buy it in this see that there is full on both

case. If you look at the testimonies see that there is full on both

over the years, what you can surmise about the character of Gordon Brown

and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately driven by Gordon Brown and the

people around him. The Blairites did things but they did then by way of

retaliation rather than initiation. things but they did then by way of

The one-time when I did lose it was the whole psychological force thing.

That came at the end of a period when we were relentlessly being done

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of briefings and Stephen and his

colleagues would be there and I just had to sit there and not hit back.

Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown would have anything to do with this.

Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown You get to the stage where your own

credibility is on the line. Coming on the Labour conference. The

promotion of alcohol awareness. But before that the Labour Party, you

never had to deal with this in opposition because you were pretty

far ahead in the polls by midterm. This time that is not the case. It

is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To

keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And

to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,

about what he believes. And particularly the kind of policy

agenda he is shaping for the future. And start to heart -- start to hit

the Tories hard. They're not pop, they're not competent. They're

screwing up the health service. And yet they are neck and neck. I would

say that the whole Shadow Cabinet yet they are neck and neck. I would

and Labour Party has got to understand that you win elections by

wanting to win elections every minute of every day. There is too

much complacency. A small lead now you have to grow that. You do that

with energy and conviction and policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole

bead in the run-up to 1997. We were winning seat where we had not even

campaigned and he was saying, why celebrate because we have not won

yet. You are promoting your alcohol awareness campaign. Perhaps the

party conference is not the best place to do that! That is one reason

why I am doing that. I'm hosting probably the only alcohol free

reception of the week! There is nothing worse than a convert, I know

that. But I travel a lot. I travel around the world and Britain has a

reputation as being the blues capital of the world. That is

something we should be ashamed of. Why is that, is it cultural? I think

it is historical. But I dig David Cameron was right to go for minimum

unit pricing and wrong to do a reversal. 6% of alcoholics get

unit pricing and wrong to do a treatment. I expect that drugs are a

problem but we spent £2 billion on 100,000 problem drug takers and £91

million on 1.6 million problem drinkers. Part of this campaign, you

have written this book about a young drinkers. Part of this campaign, you

alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in the first person. People could think

you are writing about yourself. Why did you choose a teenage girl? Well

partly, I dedicated this to the families of alcoholics. And I

dedicated it to one doctor in Southampton. He told me when he

started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women

and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One

doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and

the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and

emergency. I watched the foot all, just can't the number of

advertisements for gambling and advertising. How have we allowed

this to happen, ? We are just awash with it. What we did I think on

24-hour licensing was a mistake. Availability and price either too

means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had

the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very

much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be

back on BBC Two tomorrow at 11:30am with live coverage of Labour Party

Conference, including the speech from the man who wants to be the

next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

Politics.