20/10/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a

vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.

His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is

Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities

Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior

coppers will be answering questions this

coppers will be answering questions London, does the London assembly

have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home

Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a

wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will

join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen

Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,

using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party

conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has

been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts

to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,

20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of

the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First, they report on the independence

campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the

day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for

independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote

either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the

Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an

awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in

terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation

of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of

negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.

That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls

suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent

survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 25%

yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting

that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are

a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It

does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their

own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it

allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no

campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big

ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do

know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting

more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into

force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of

pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative

would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by

independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the

currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance

the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the

Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a

Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation

it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish

government's White Paper on independence, two to be published

within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in

September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it

knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,

Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former

leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it

will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of

their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British

identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much

loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the

independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and

proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power

best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a

government which is directly accountable to the people of

Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,

very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at

the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with

him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British

identity of Scottish people? No, I do not think we are required to

attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody

to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish

independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of

power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring

that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the

biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a

constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many

people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,

many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many

of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at

stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks

like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly

approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will

still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving

over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know

that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice

between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own

hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which

will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not

become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having

governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland

rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social

security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are

itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice

of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences

of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you

are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.

You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that

nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind

of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a

once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland

really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --

existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making

powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP

government would do, if elected. A decision on what the first

government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken

in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.

And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the

electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is

important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of

support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the

rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of

the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to

Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of

independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist

near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of

centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you

are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that

case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that

people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,

right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because

people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the

opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion, and

if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a

government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.

Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in

Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly

democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current

government, points out the opportunities that would be opening

up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics

earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he

wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he

would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He

made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he

would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr

Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex

Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that

agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and

then Alex Salmond, just like me, will debate with allcomers. So if he

does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the

others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the

right thing. So, in other words, he will not debate, yes or no? Members

of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?

He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including

the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let

off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices

are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do

something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is

the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband

electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze

energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control

over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes

prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon

is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills

for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they

will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is

a credible government, making a credible case, very different to

what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,

Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist

policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to

this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money

pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,

social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has

been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the

difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to

do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good

times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories

would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to

some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in

the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really

are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate

this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to

their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to

fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition

policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to

hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition

partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy

into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,

if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill

because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is

entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do

not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in

Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David

Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to

local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...

Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the

Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In

the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using

CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to

act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised

councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release

land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new

homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a

week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active

Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is

it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric

Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town

halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from

Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going

beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up

their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked

councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.

Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.

You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If

you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks

before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no

possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to

people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and

it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund

general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are

breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local

residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to

micromanage, allowing motorist 's to park for 15 minutes in local high

street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local

authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If

you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway

but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials

for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and

get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a

matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the

side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of

milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the

council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You

have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes

should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help

meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in

charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some

responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning

decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They

want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and

district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision

runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a

blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to

judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled

to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that

is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision

that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an

inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2012,

he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and

local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being

plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper

quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local

people can decide where it goes. But they cannot say, nothing here. They

have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government

decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the

lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local

authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green

belt land. I do not accept that. I think around Nottingham there are

particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been

referred back. the green belt. The matter has been

want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want

to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green

belt. Not to remember why we have the green

nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one

another. Your conurbations bumping into one

is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under

provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.

provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting

there, but nowhere near that. -- housing. You cannot

there, but nowhere near that. -- localism agenda as well as meeting

housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where

the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has

steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism

agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the

housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations

have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is

nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to

be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure

there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000

homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will

mean riding over local concerns. Each application will be taken on

its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green

belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell

get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to

sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his

version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in

government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?

Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls

said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done

that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept

the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have

an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can

move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that

is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,

you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press

has to flow without restriction. That is what I said at the time. We

had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better

compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that

we have. I could not be happier! Then you are in the Desert and there

you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my

personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and

took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become

a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one

day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would

they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I

went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.

On Wednesday senior police folk, including chief constables, will be

questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the

incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the

government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent

Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and

integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.

So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's

Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the

police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher

called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.

It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament.

After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the

ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both

were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their

trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events

just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this

which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So

when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would

not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people

have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us

believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.

And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out

about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to

congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply

acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last

September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing

Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations

he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the

police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied

about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to

the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the

police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The

prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson

during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were

told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest

by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really

relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's

view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 60% of

the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since

pollsters started measuring it 30 years ago.

Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be

that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently

seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a

police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still

a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is

affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think

politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.

Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust

in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former

chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the

cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,

the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of

deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural

deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual

issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of

them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive

about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen

with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior

officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies

being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start

with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed

for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got

this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces,

there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a

handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police

officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even

today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken

to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some

of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the

evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a

lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has

clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The

audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet

minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not

been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending

to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in

prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of

different bits of that incident. There is the officers on duty in

Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there

are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to

have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting

issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been

misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an

organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and

destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the

Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their

pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us, the

public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are

going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police

would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there

if there is a crisis of trust... But it looks like they fitted up a

Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We

know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if

not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a

misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what

is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has

told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn't.

He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,

he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not

said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police

forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the

land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in

society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but

what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad

apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people,

thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the

bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are

standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does

not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with

a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to

be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution...

For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is

there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,

you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved

that anybody has been fitted up. We are yet to hear what happened at the

gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing

Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had

heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.

That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All

right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as

a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics

should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on

strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for

that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a

more competent and properly resourced Independent police

commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police

officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force

we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will

leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking

to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,

hello, and on the sunday politics wales, finance minister janes hutt

tells this programme that wales cannot afford to "sit back and wait"

before making use of a fresh ?2.1 billion injection of european

economic aid. and carwyn jones criticises network

rail over the maintenance closure of the severn tunnel during the rugby

world league cup opening ceremony and womex music festival next

weekend in cardiff. joining me throughout today's programme are two

mps, the conservative jonathan evans and labour's stephen doughty.

We real theme. Some figures have come out on the HS2 rail project.

Cardiff appears to be a loser. There are some winners in north-east

Wales. I am not entirely clear what Labour's position is. In principle,

we remain in favour of the project, but we have been clear that that is

not a blank check for it. We think they are going ahead regardless of

the total cost, and the losses to part of the country are concerning.

Cardiff would lose 68 million, according to the report, and we have

real infrastructure needs here and need for real investment my area. We

want to see new stations in the east of Cardiff, and bigger

infrastructure projects should benefit the whole country. Over the

whole country, it seems like places like Wrexham, Flintshire, might

benefit from this. It is not all bad news. I think it is a good job we

did not have management consultants 200 years ago, but would not have a

network of railways as a whole. Whatever you invest, it will have

disproportionate impact on whatever part of the country it may be. For

instance, we will have ?350 million spent on electrifying railways to

Cardiff and Swansea, which will affect other parts of the country.

I'm taking this report with a pinch of salt. I think it is necessary

that we see High-speed rail in Britain. We are lagging behind other

parts of Europe. We will leave it there for now and move onto more

trains. They are supposed to be a way of

helping us get richer, but had EU funds bingo but Wales? With the

latest seven-year programme due to start in January, our correspondent

has been looking at whether we're getting the best value from

Brussels. The flickering lights don't lull

story. This supercomputer in Swansea can carry out 320 Chilean operations

per second. That is some serious computing power. It is used to help

businesses from car manufacturers to medical firms. Northern Isles

finance minister has come over to take a look. The scheme has had ?19

million in EU funding. It is one of several projects the Welsh

government say that the money from Europe is making a real difference.

This is about transport links, about regeneration, and about helping

businesses with research and development and innovation. You can

give the numbers, but those young people who have had training, does

it lead to jobs? That is the important test of how we have used

our structural funds, and it has led to the gently but getting jobs. Over

the past several years, West Wales and the valleys have received more

than ?1.9 billion of EU funding. They got a similar chunk in the

seven years before that. Every penny has to be matched by the public or

private sector, and the cash has to be spent on schemes like this one to

boost the economy, not on things like schools asked the balls. The

Welsh government says more than 20,000 jobs have been created, but

critics say that is not return for the money. If you travel the length

and breadth of Wales, you will find examples of waste within structural

funding which should really make this be a very ashamed. You will

find cultural centres, arts centres that have closed, all these

investments in buildings which look very impressive at no funding in

place to keep them running, and rather than creating a lot of

nervous spirit, I think European funding in Wales has contributed to

the dependency culture here as a country. Not everyone thinks

Brussels has the answers. Despite all that EU investment, euro

scepticism is on the rise even here in Wales. What has happened is, as a

result of EU membership, we have become less competitive will stop

less competitive because we make sure the manufacturers in Wales have

expensive electricity because of EU accession with climate change, and

the fact that the United Kingdom gets a bit of its own money back to

be spent on projects approved the bureaucracy in Brussels is not what

I would call a benefit will stop. One thing that worries experts as

well as politicians is that other parts of the Europe seem to

performing much better. Some put West Wales and the valleys in the

same economic bracket as Greece or southern Italy, but even compare to

them, we are not performing well. Previous places which have had low

GDP values, low employment, productivity values similar to Wales

and West Wales and the valleys in particular, are seeing high levels

of growth and high rates of growth over the last five or ten years, and

that put West Wales and the valleys in a particularly difficult

situation. We have a low level of activity, and it's not getting much

better in comparison to those of areas that might have been seen as

being similar in the past. There is a risk of being left behind in that

sense. A new seven-year round of EU funding start in January, and

despite Rec there were warnings of cuts, West Wales and the valleys is

getting another ?2.1 billion. The Welsh government is promising to cut

red tape and keep a close eye on whether the project are really

working will stop and with the public and private sectors are short

of cash for match funding, ministers have hopped on the plane to

Luxembourg to see if the European investment bank can help out. There

is a real sense of urgency, but this time, we have to get it right. They

are looking at ways they can help us until we get our borrowing powers,

in perhaps different ways of funding projects, because this is not a time

to sit back and wait. We must get on with the job, and the European

investment bank is very keen to work with us on this. We also for the

next seven years must look creatively and what can be done. I

have done work on the European budget, and part of it was looking

at public/ private partnerships, specifically the European investment

bank and the role that bank can play. Over the next seven years, in

many areas, this money will be the only capital and is money available,

we must maximise it, so the old cosy public partnerships will not any

longer work. Ministers are promising a smarter approach to make sure EU

funds really deliver from now on. After 2020, the same level of

support might not be available, and that is assuming the UK stays within

the EU. Everyone agrees we have to get it right this time, before the

door closes for good. Jonathan Evans, you are worth and

NEP for ten years, during a time the first tranche of money was

distributed. Thomas Livingstone says we need to get it right. A

suggestion perhaps that we have not got it right previously? Yellow

macro certainly. I did think we have. The reality is, it is not

about creating jobs, but about creating growth. From growth, the

jobs will come. It is not just there for job creation and then you find

at the six or 12 month the job has gone. At the time that we first got

this status and got our first trial shove money, out of the regions,

about 50 of them, Wales was counted six in terms of overall growth. We

have sunk to 42nd, and that is an indication of how much more growth

there has been in the other regions that are amongst the poorer regions.

I think this is a failure. The commission itself says the regions

that are doing poorest are doing so for two reasons: Firstly, in terms

of education, their standards are just not good enough, and secondly,

because there is poor administrative government, and I think both of

those apply in Wales. There we go. Stephen Doughty, you can reply to

that. The Welsh government says this has created 27,000 jobs, but from

Jonathan Bond macro perspective, a failure. Clearly, if you're not

going to say every single project has been perfect in any scheme this

size. What is your overall assessment? That it has made a huge

benefit, in terms of jobs that Jane Hutt was about, and in terms of the

people across Wales who have received new qualifications as a

result of EU funding, and you can only look in the last few weeks a

project like the new link road between the Port Talbot docks and

the M4, which the First Minister was opening. That is a key example of EU

money benefiting growth and business. The Welsh government and

EU working together to benefit Wales. There was a suggestion that

this could be the last chance Wales would receive this money. It really

needs to have a big impact this time, more than it did whether you

agree it is a failure or not. So macro obviously, I am glad the Welsh

government is looking at the funding office, and reviews to make sure we

use that money most effectively. The wider issue here is that it is not

just EU money which is responsible for creating growth, an investment

in Wales. We must have the wider investment sector that is right. We

have seen the slowest growth for Hundred years in the UK, largely

because, I believe, of David Cameron's and George Osborne 's

economic policies. But we will see growth next year 3%, so you will not

have that excuse them. What is clear already, Jane Hutt has recognised

that the private sector so far has been insufficiently involved. She

needs to speak to the European investment bank. I am glad she has

recognised that, because I said that to Rhodri Morgan years ago. He

recognised it was necessary to get the private sector involved. His

argument was, let's at least get the local authorities on board to start

with, but I must say, it has been a public sector led approach so far,

and I think it has failed Wales. I think it is a a point that has been

raised, the drying up of the map to receive this, there were reasons for

that, but creating jobs in those areas might not be as effective as

in Cardiff that people can travel to. I think it is one thing I can

agree about, we are very hopeful we might be able to use this third

tranche of money now to see the network connection between the

valleys in Cardiff improved, because I think Cardiff can be a draw for

investment, but as things currently structured, all the money must be

outside Cardiff. Maybe that money can be spent on creating a network

of communication right the way across the valleys. Maybe something

like the London Underground. And that gives people in the valleys and

need jobs the opportunity of getting to Cardiff where there may be those

opportunities. I would agree on that. One thing I would say is, East

Wales has also received European funding, hundreds of millions of

pounds of it. That has made a difference too, but I agree we need

to look at ways we can best work with the rest of Wales as a gateway

almost. We will support jobs and growth in business across the rest

of the country. We start with HS2, a Metro system, and now onto more rail

stories. The First Minister has criticised Network Rail over the

maintenance closure of the seven tunnel during the Rugby league

opening ceremony, and the music festival next weekend in Cardiff.

Carwyn Jones first publicly raised his concerns about their work at

Question Time, and he told the Sunday Politics that the Welsh

government had not been consulted over the closure. He sounded quite

exasperated. They have got form on this, and it is an important point

here, when we have events in Cardiff, why do maintenance work on

the tunnel when these are taking place. If there were events every

single week in the millennium Centre or millennium Stadium or the city

Stadium in Cardiff, you might say, OK, some weekends, that is

inevitable. But for some reason, they often choose dates when there

are big events on in Cardiff. Be for me referred to was the Severn Tunnel

closure in 1999, when the Welsh rugby team played England at

Wembley. Fans travelling by rail had to take a longer route to London.

Next weekend, thousands of rugby league fans will be heading here to

Cardiff for the opening ceremony of the Rugby World Cup, followed by

matches between Wales and Italy. Australia and England also play.

Music fans will be heading to the capital to for the WOMEX Festival.

Not all rail services will be affected, but the Severn Tunnel

closures will cause some disruption. In a statement, Network Rail told

the Sunday Politics Wales: Mr Jones Is Concerned That The

Travel Disruptions Could Put The Block In Cardiff And Have A Negative

Impact On The Worldwide Image Of Wales. He Understands The Need For

Maintenance And Regretted That An Alternative Rail Route Was Not

Considered With The Building Of The New Severn Bridge. The Great Shame

Is That A Rail Back Was Not Put On The Severn Bridge In 1993. Other

Countries Would Have Done That, And Then We Would Not Have Had Those

Problems With The Severn Tunnel. There Needs To Be Maintenance There.

It Is A Very Wet Tunnel, Having Gone Through It In A Cab, But Let's Do It

When There Is Not A Big Game On In Cardiff.

Stephen Doughty, Let's Touch On One Of The Points There. The CLOSURE OF

THE TUNNEL NEXT WEEKEND inhibiting people coming to Cardiff could

damage Wales' reputation, because these are two event that I going to

be watched around the world. Yes, they are huge. We have seen Cardiff

and South Wales gain a great reputation from the hosting of the

ball and the Olympics over the past few years, particularly since the

building of the one Stadium, and I find this decision pretty

inexplicable. These are two major events, and we risk presenting a

poor image of Cardiff and access to Wales. Network Rail say they have no

option, the work must be done sometime. Is there an argument is,

Jonathan Evans, that if they don't do it on the weekend, it will be

during the week, and that would impact business travel, people would

be annoyed about that as well? I think there is pretty much always

engineering work at the weekends on this line. Anyone who has travelled

on its nose you can pretty much expect they will be three to three

and a half hour delays on a Saturday or Sunday, where it will be two

hours in the week. I check the schedules before coming, and it

turned out that even though you will go on a bus during part of the

journey, the journey time will be the same in any event. I think it is

a bit silly to raise this is a point. I think it is important that

we get our transport communications right, but I think that the First

Minister, the status of his role speaking for Wales, talking about

Wales being downgraded by it, it is more important that he develops a

better relationship with Network Rail so that he knows what they are

planning well in advance and he can make his representations well in a

dance rather than seeing this sort of spats . The Rugby Union World Cup

in 2015, there is a promise from Network Rail they will be no works

during that. But I think the Welsh government, they are supporting

WOMEX, and not sure about the World Cup, but what do you make about the

idea this could damage the international reputation of Wales? I

don't think that is helpful for the First Minister to be coming out and

attacking Network Rail in this way. We from Network Rail that the

arrangements for this particular weekend were put in place two years

ago. I'd prefer a situation in which when there are arrangements in

place, there is dialogue between the First Minister and Network Rail,

rather than finding a week beforehand we have a spat of this

nature in the press. Stephen disagrees. Obviously, we need

dialogue, and to look as bad as possible. I think he has said they

did not consult with the Welsh government. Yellow macro well, I

think he is exactly within his rights to raise this issue. He has

to look out for Wales and how it is seen in the world. There are issues

of transport into South Wales, and discussions at the moment about the

Cardiff business Council about the image of how Cardiff is portrayed

coming into the city. I think those are very important things, and

ultimately, they show what this country is like and whether people

should invest all come to sporting events here. He is right to raise

it. As Cardiff MPs, will you go to the events that we can? Obviously,

no problems with the Severn Tunnel ! Yellow macro I am hoping to get to

ten macro to if I can. Rugby runs in my family, but I probably cannot

make it to that. I am a union man, but the less I say about leader that

! Good news for Labour, perhaps !

Now, time for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the

week in 60 seconds. Welsh Conservative leader Andrew RT

Davies said BBC Wales should be accountable to the assembly in the

future. He said the BBC had a near monopoly on reporting devolution and

should be scrutinised by assembly members. Currently, the BBC

governing body, the BBC trust, ancestor the UK Parliament on all

parts of the BBC. Vale of fluid MP Chris Ruan

criticised energy company price rises, and accused ministers of

washing their hands are the problem. Ed Davey said increases were

disappointing and suggested customers should switch suppliers.

Clive Comrie's Parliamentary leader will stand down as an MP at the next

election. He has been an MP for 21 years.

Cardiff city season-ticket holder expressed his approval for the

manager after the recent of evil at the club. Mr Andrew said he was the

best manager the club have had in a generation.

As it happens, I've got two Cardiff City season ticket holders in the

studio with me. Jonathan Evans, is Malky Mackay the best manage energy

narration? What do you make of the events at the Stadium of the last

two weeks? I think they are and it's the Google, frankly, but there is a

lesson to be learnt. It is not that we save the manager or the owners

are right. There are three people at this party, and those are the

supporters, the manager, the owner. We have to get a better assimilation

between them. I think it is a bad thing that the chairman of the

supporters trust, for instance, first met with the owner of the club

something like two and a half or three years after the club had been

acquired. I think supporters' trusts need to be much more involved with

football teams, but I am not going to attack in the owner. He has spent

?30 million recently for new players for Cardiff, which has made a big

difference to us, so we must recognise the important role that is

a part of what we get from the owner, what we get from the

manager, and most important of all, the supporters. Malky Mackay says he

will be staying for the foreseeable future at least. You welcome that, I

suppose. Simek are absolutely. I do think he is the best manager we have

had for a long time. The interaction he has with fans and supporters of

the clubs, I'm getting at is the community and speaking to supporters

and building those relationships are absolutely great. I would agree we

need to have a clear respect between those three parts, the manager, the

owner and the supporters, and make sure they respect each other's

perspectives and responsibility. I am sure Cardiff supporters will not

thank me for saying this, but you can emulate the success of Swansea.

Look at her successful their clubbers. I think there is a much

bigger role for supporters trust. They can get involved in every

detail of the club, but the owner obviously has a right to have a

significant say. But I think there is a role and there could be a

better relationship. I think it is unrealistic to expect that Cardiff

city could be like Swansea, in other words, ace supporter owned club,

because there is too much debt, too much money spent, but that does not

me and we should not see one whizzy representative of the supporters'

trust actively involved in the governance of the club. That will

reassure supporters in my view. Certainly it would reassure Stephen

and I. Now, energy prices, briefly. Ed

Miliband promised a freeze on prices if Labour win the election. Prices

have gone up 10% or British Gas customers in the past week. What is

the UK Government going to do? Labour's policy is going to be to

cut that often, presumably, when they come in. In reality, I don't

think that is workable, but I think there may well have to be some

discussion about the impact of green taxes on the price of electricity.

We have seen Alex Salmond say that what he would do is scrap green

taxes, take them off the energy bills as a price for people to vote

for independence, and all of the people who wanted to see green taxes

brought in, I think that perhaps they will have to appreciate now

that that is contributing to the rise in prices. Ed Miliband brought

some of them in as energy minister, did he? The big question to me is

what side is David Cameron on. If the underside of the energy bosses

all constituents like mine across Cardiff who are struggling with

energy bills will stop. Do you think the energy freeze is workable? I

think it is absolutely workable, but it must come along side a reform of

the energy market, getting proper competition back.

We are out of time. Thank you very much for coming in. That is all

we've got time for this week. We will be back

down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you

to both of you for being my guests today.

Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg

kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love

bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by

the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.

Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in

the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those

who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview

that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on

up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I

do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly

Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.

I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal

party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,

fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should

be on the liberal centre ground. But is it actually veering to the left,

your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any

organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look

inwards, to look for reassuring, familiar policy positions. I do not

want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of

people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards

and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have

got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting

the deficit down, cutting crime, keeping interest rates low, and

also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax

and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and

ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us

credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able

to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our

policies excesses in government. I want us to be confident, outward

looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense

that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore

make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance

himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free

schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating

area, so let's explore it a bit. We have had two very significant and

troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,

saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other

words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get

on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our

competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms

of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are

worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two

thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are

failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were

the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting

conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we

are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which

have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need

to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good

quality education in order to realise their full potential in

life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I

think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we

should be instinctively statist, and I do not think either we should be

instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a

restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is

about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity

in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education

system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some

schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this

country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful

stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.

Are the Tories wooing you? Well, I do not know if that is the right

word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the

Conservatives have, if you like, made some advances or generous

suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal

Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was

founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned

tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am

not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this

on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few

liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,

who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in

the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,

should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no

political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested

that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next

election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The

Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates

they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of

the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not

from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of

a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living

standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it

was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning

the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from

the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he

makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a

guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were

there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the

economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,

they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne

came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported

free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but

on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free

schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David

Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,

which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming

right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would

not get the credit anyway. Well, if they diss associate themselves like

this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters

their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it

is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters

from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not

Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the

Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I

wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be

organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they

have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send

messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.

Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,

according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That's

right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at

Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from

Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting

that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power

stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas

to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the

power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot

of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your

balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop

with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which

will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.

It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after

George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK

Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate

in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip, and

there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron

trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were

annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the

Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George

Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about

any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five

years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a

special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go

wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate

this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving

them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all

eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the

recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on

which basis it can influence the result of the next general

election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on

Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the

assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary

policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means,

interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with

prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be

back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.