19/01/2014 Sunday Politics Wales

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says

Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask

senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.

What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the

Later in the programme: First group. A donkey.

Later in the programme: First Minister Carwyn Jones says the

income tax powers on offer to the Assembly are "pretty much useless".

He said they would not he did not make the announcement? I

don't think that's right. I don't clear every word I say with him, I

don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before

it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We

were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing

the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been

lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty

way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they

don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are

there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,

our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven

you for ratting on tuition fees, and that was a broken promise that

didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition

fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought

up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London

up. If you look at our manifesto, delivered about 70% of our policies

in the delivered about 70% of our policies

forgiven you for the big one. delivered about 70% of our policies

big promise we made was delivered about 70% of our policies

income tax the millions of delivered about 70% of our policies

That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of

working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our

economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make

sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum

wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit

is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the

confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 12

months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look

largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus

group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I

have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we

are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,

it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.

Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than

benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to

have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right

thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib

Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the

way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests

of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,

stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in

meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 2015

election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a

very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the

economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the

problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the

biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is

either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative

government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want

us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a

disaster to investment in this country. You

disaster to investment in this that if Scotland votes to leave the

UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British

government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would

be that even if they negotiation, but the backstop would

anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the

markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few

questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still

borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people

were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious

concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond

market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.

That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather

than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a

bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to

allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in

the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because

Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it

was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus

group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this

aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the

bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at

RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached

by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach

from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in

government, massive reductions... I'm not asking you about that, I'm

asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to

sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has

38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what

possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right

to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is

mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they

might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be

sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you

said, but also the fact that it is a bank

said, but also the fact that it is a taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS

said, but also the fact that it is a retail. Let me turn to Chris

Rennard, ten women have accused him retail. Let me turn to Chris

every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this

as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair

Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what

happened to a criminal standard, that there is clear there has been

considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that

and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has

been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the

Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the

Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the

disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly. We

are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of

Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of

complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.

The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what

action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We

as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to

change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told

that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House

of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and

welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord

Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and

welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to

deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of

apology is totally unacceptable, and therefore we have to take steps if

that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard

should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not

forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the

end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I

hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override

Nick Clegg? They Do they have the power to override

decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple

human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is

totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --

divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total

nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we

have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment

on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid

down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which

asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty

of confidentiality and responsibility under the data

protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in

a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why

should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven

allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not

been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to

continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the

recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.

Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris

Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits. He

says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party

because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those

rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.

The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of

which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found

distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't

think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it

both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a

proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened

proper inquiry. There was a proper this is a party, and the most

important thing this is a party, and the most

Rennard apologises. You this is a party, and the most

that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on

the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We

just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank

you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.

Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to

run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the

revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies

were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital

communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how

worried should we be about their clandestine activity?

In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that

America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called

Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from

around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This

week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,

including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions

of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela

Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused

to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign

Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks

and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of

the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in

on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to

go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel

Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major

changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was

up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of

thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that

is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,

has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is

up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a

call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people

can see what the evidence is. Obviously

can see what the evidence is. will have to be classified, but on

the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big

debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can

make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence

that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years

since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a

fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime

Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people

and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a

separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.

Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think

so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of

intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust

scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have

Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and

ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for

improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,

President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to

collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for

the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take

the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk

about the threat from terrorism, it is all about travesty. There are

several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are

actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in

the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have

been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.

Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It

is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce

that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two

different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not

get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if

you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end

not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the

committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on

7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look

at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did

you not have them on the radar? country, people will say, why did

agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be

subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know

subject to oversight, but beanie Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on

basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some

of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did

you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to

get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we

had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write

letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet

and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up

with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal

framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google

and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.

In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in

the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are

secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different

door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence. We

need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off. The

final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and

Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not

the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for

the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to

have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to

both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday

Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of

the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!

Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales: I've been talking to the

First Minister Carwyn Jones about health, taxation and local

government re-organisation. And is there sexism in the Cardiff

Bay political culture? And we begin in Cardiff Bay where

I've speaking to the First Minister, recently back from Uganda, where he

saw the difference being made by aid from Wales.

He says the income tax powers are useless. What a contrast with David

Jones, who told this programme last week that Wales should grab those

Jones, who told this programme last with the promise to deliver. The

education system has slipped down and some NHS targets have been

education system has slipped down missed. Has the first Minister's

focus on delivery come too late? missed. Has the first Minister's

the early hours of devolution, we needed to

the early hours of devolution, we the emphasis on delivery is my

personal emphasis. I said so in the 2011 election and that is what we

are doing. Is it too late? Labour has led the Assembly since the

gaining and shouldn't it have been a priority earlier?

It is not as if nothing has been delivered. We had bus passes, free

prescriptions. Our powers were more limited than than they are now. We

now have a reasonable sweep of powers. We need more and the Silk

Commission is looking at that. Now we are able to look at the shape of

public service delivery in Wales. The problem in 2011 was that we

finance public services in Wales but we had no control over the

structure. That has changed. On the Willliams Commission we are

expecting to be published tomorrow, is local government reorganisation

happening because councils have failed to share services and work

together in the way you wanted them to?

My view is that 22 local authorities are too many and I think the

structure that was put together in 1995 was unsustainable. The question

now is what the Williams Commission will recommend and I look forward to

the recommendations this week. Could they have avoided this if they had

worked together and shared services?

Know. I think it would have helped but it wouldn't be possible. I think

we have capacity issues that are difficult to address.

We have six local authorities who are in special measures with regard

to education out of 22 and that isn't sustainable so we need to have

a long, hard and honest look at all public services in Wales to make

sure that the structure is far more sustainable and stronger in future.

Are they paying the price for failures in public services? We know

there have been issues. You only need to look at the number of

authorities in special measures with education.

If you look at capacity issues, I have seen them in local government.

Some people will ask why we haven't done it before and we didn't have

the power until the referendum in 2011. It is important we put a

commission in place to look at what the future should be before taking a

decision. That is what we have done. On the NHS you have had some

criticism, it is fair to say, from your opponents on failures and

waiting times and failing to meet your own performance targets. You

said they will be reviewed. Are you shifting the goalposts because you

have not... We can't review the target until we

have met them We can't review the target until we

Ambulance response times, in terms of the percentage

Ambulance response times, in terms no logic to them but we have to meet

Ambulance response times, in terms them first. People will say if we

Ambulance response times, in terms try to change the about meeting

them, we are changing the goalposts. I understand that. And billions

times are improving and cancer waiting times, they are the same as

in England. The same with other treatments. We are honest with the

way we calculate these things. When it comes to referral to treatment

time, in England they don't count the time between when you see the GP

and a consultant. With as it is from when you leave the GP. That is when

the clock starts. It is to our own depth and intent of the target but

we are more honest. Detriment. -- do is to our detriment.

The reason why this was raised is Mark Drakeford and I went around

hospitals in Wales in the summer and doctors and nurses said they are

issues where the targets. The accident and emergency target. They

said there are people who stay in A for too long. I think people see

waiting times and think that is the time it takes to see a doctor but

that is the total time. They say they are in and they need blood

tests but if we keep them in for 30 hours we can get them back out but

if we, at 12 hours, so they have to be admitted, they are in hospital

for three days. Sometimes it works against what most sensible people

would want. We need to make sure the targets aren't detrimental.

Do you think the failure to hit targets or people having a poor

experience of the NHS is stopping you from winning the argument on the

need to reorganise hospitals? I don't buy this argument that most

people in Wales have a bad experience of the NHS. We know that

more than 90% of people are happy with the service. Over Christmas,

people said to me, I was in the hospital the other day and it was

marvellous. In many ways, it is true to say the vast majority of people

get excellent service in the NHS but sometimes that doesn't happen. What

is key is to investigate what happens. So the NHS isn't failing,

despite waiting times? The NHS is not failing.

It is not failing. The vast majority of people by far and excellent

service from the NHS but that doesn't mean things can't improve.

That is why we have put in place a programme to improve things but I

don't buy the idea that the NHS in Wales is failing. Don't think that

is correct and the vast majority of Wales is failing. Don't think that

experience of the NHS. There is room for improvement.

experience of the NHS. There is room Tomorrow you will be giving evidence

to the Welsh affairs committee on the Wales

to the Welsh affairs committee on borrowing powers that you have

wanted for so long. Also income tax powers that you are less and

wanted for so long. Also income tax you a way to raise money to pay back

the money you could borrow. It is true that we could borrow more money

if we had those powers but there are problems. We are underfunded.

If we took on board income tax powers, the funding would be there

for ever and a day. If we said to Whitehall they needed to address the

underfunding, they would tell us to raise the money themselves.

Secondly, the way they've proposed income tax would be developed which

means we can't do anything altering rates. If you reduce income tax in

one tax band, you have to change it in all tax bands. It is like buying

a car with only one gear. It is pretty much useless. So you won't

touch income tax powers until the Treasury has replaced the Barnett

formula? That have to be reformed first of

all and then the model needs to be far more flexible than the model

we've been given. It is not what we wanted or what the

Silk Commission has recommended. Because Scotland has the bottle,

Wales have to have it. If you want to be imaginative in terms of using

the tax system, being put in a straitjacket and being told what you

can do doesn't help. There is no prospect of the Barnett

formula being reformed in the short-term and this UK government or

your own party. The Labour Party hasn't committed to reforming

Barnett. It is being looked at but there are issues in terms of what

else is going on in the UK. There needs to be a fair funding

formula in place. Barnett can't last forever but no rational worse

government can say we will take on board revenue raising powers when

three quarters of the revenue you get as government is paid for by the

Barnett for Miller. It on defenceless by ?300 million a year.

The basis has to be sound. Owen Smith this week said that we

shouldn't buy the notion that Barnett had ill served Wales.

I think it has in the past. In the future it is not going to work. We

know it is underfunded and if public spending increases in future, that

underfunding will increase. It has served us well in the past but it is

34 years old and it is time for it to be reviewed.

As I discussed with the First Minister, there has been plenty of

criticism here in Wales about the way public services are run. But is

the number of councils delivering those services part of the problem?

Carwyn Jones thinks that 22 councils is too many for a country the size

of Wales, and tomorrow's Williams Commission report is expected to say

that Commission report is expected to say

been to the Rhymney Valley to Commission report is expected to say

history is any guide. Commission report is expected to say

Wherever you are in Wales, the past is never

Wherever you are in Wales, the past that make up the present county of

Caerphilly have seen their ups and downs start here at the Museum in

new Tredegar, they record live through the ages. The new exhibition

concentrates on life in the 70s. Emma Watson showed me around. The

pits have closed. The sense of community is still very strong

there. Barclays has changed a lot from the

photograph we can see here that it has recently undergone regeneration.

A lot of people coming in felt very nostalgic, seeing these, especially

in the pubs and clubs, of people that they recognise and family

members. A lot of people say the community feeling is still strong.

That have sustained the towns and villages that make up Caerphilly

through good times and bad. The political map of Caerphilly has

changed over the years, two. When this cuddly rear-wheel was turning

in the 1970s, these communities were part of the Glamorgan. -- when this

colliery real. Tomorrow a government report will say we have too many

councils and most of them should merge. Caerphilly County which the

about to disappear -- could be about to disappear. In fact, it looks like

the 70s model, when there were eight county councils, is back in fashion.

The Welsh government has resisted turning back the clock but if there

were changes, would-be Labour administration get support the other

parties? The important thing is we have the

National Assembly and we have a Welsh government. That has happened

since the restructuring of local government and we have to look at

what can be delivered nationally, what can be delivered in the region

and what can be delivered locally. Then when we look at the delivery of

those services, the structures fall into place.

I am prepared to support reconfiguration of local gunmen in

Wales if we get it right and that means having councils that are

representative of a fair voting system. We need to make sure that we

have the costs under control solely understand what the costs are and

they sure that service delivery is going to be maintained.

I'm saying let's look at all the options and make sure we don't rush

into a reorganisation which not only may not deliver the sort of benefit

people are expecting, it would also cost money and it would also wipe

off the map some areas of Wales which people identify with. You have

to be careful with people 's sense of identity.

The mechanics of cutting the number of councils isn't simple. There are

cost involved and there will be job losses. Some don't think the Cox

will turn smoothly. It is fraught with risk and it

will turn smoothly. massive object management exercise.

It is open to potential drift and in that, services could interior rate

and staff morale could go down. The potential for it is during this

time. Witty, we need to have very imaginative and effective responses

in order to keep and maintain local government into the future.

Some people will say it doesn't matter whether they live in mid

Glamorgan, Caerphilly, Rhymney Valley or some new creation. They

want to see better services and the challenge to Carwyn Jones, if he

hisses ahead, will be how to explain to the public house slashing

councils will make a difference to them, wherever they call home.

Tomos Livingstone with that report. Joining me in studio is Lynn Pamment

who's the local government and public sector partner at the

accountants, Price Waterhouse Coopers. Welcome. Plenty of people

saying that 22 is too many and we need a cat. Is it necessary?

I think if you have seen the various reports this week and before that,

22 created a number of very small authorities and that has caused

problems in the delivery of services. There is an acceptance

that 22 is probably too many. It feels like it is inevitable.

We're talking about it and we have talked about it for ages. At what

point did people think they were too small? I think it has come to the

fore of late. Carwyn Jones himself has pointed to education services

and how many are in special measures.

There is a challenge to attract the right staff to run those services in

a small geographic area. The vast government, successive

governments have tried to work around that by getting councils to

collaborate with I take it that hasn't worked?

There have been examples where collaboration has not been bad and

procurement for waste has been one example. We have just not seen it on

the scale that the Labour government had envisaged when it talked about

collaboration. We certainly haven't seen that happen in practice.

Why is that? I think there is quite a few

challenges in terms of collaboration. The challenge in

terms of service delivery and it is not true to say that all 22 are

delivering the same service to the same criteria and if they were, that

would make same criteria and if they were, that

That is not what we same criteria and if they were, that

practice so some of the larger scale same criteria and if they were, that

off the ground, like Caerphilly collaborating on

off the ground, like Caerphilly is difficult when you have one

overspending and one understanding. But those issues aren't going to go

away by merging councils. You have to confront these things there going

to the upheaval. There will be upheaval with the

local government organisation and with that some of the issues around

so this standards and criteria will have to be tackled but there is a

brisk local government with the reorganisation as a way to achieve

the savings but that isn't what we are going to see in practice.

They are not going to dodge a bullet here?

Austerity will still be here for the long-term and public sector cuts

will be here and need to be innovative and think about what

local authorities are there to deliver and how they deliver them.

That agenda will still be there and there is a risk that they could take

the eye off the ball for a while and there is a need to be innovative on

service delivery if they are going to succeed. We are going to have to

leave it there. Thank you very much for coming in.

Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the

week in 60 seconds. Plaid Cymru said junior doctors who

decided to work in Wales could have their student debt paid off if the

party get into power. Lyn Jones said they would also guarantee places at

ethical school for Welsh students. Mark Drakeford said he wanted to

prioritise resources on proven treatment and patients with the

greatest need. He said a fifth of the work done by the NHS doesn't

unfit patients and could actually cause harm. Andrew RT Davies called

on councils not to increase fees for sport pitches and facilities. He

said some sports clubs could close or reduce activities of local

authorities went ahead with price hikes. Assembly Members appealed to

the Welsh Rugby union and the four Rugby regions to sort out their

differences. Shadow sports Minister Mohammad

Asghar said AM 's could act as independent brokers to end the

dispute. Another story making the headlines

across the UK this week has been the allegations against Lord Rennard.

Nick Clegg said the Liberal Democrats' former chief executive

should be barred from the parliamentary party until he

apologises to women who claim they've been sexually harassed. The

move was recommended by an internal inquiry but Lord Rennard denies any

wrongdoing. One of the women wanting an apology is the deputy

the Liberal Democrats' federal executive - Welsh activist Alison

Goldsworthy. She's also raised concerns about sexism in politics at

both ends of the M4. She says politics has

both ends of the M4. She says isn't immune. Joining me is the

Labour AM and former MP Julie Morgan. Julie, Alison Goldsworthy

says politics stinks. Do you agree with that? I think

unconscious sexism operates in all organisations, including politics

but my experience in Cardiff Bay is better than Westminster. When I went

to was Mr in 1997, some of the experiences that were horrendous. --

Westminster in 1997. When you stood up in the chamber and tried to talk

about breast-feeding or you try to talk about something as ordinary as

childcare, they would be efforts made to undermine you comment about

your appearance and all that kind of thing which was very undermining. It

has got better there since. You think the Assembly has jettisoned

that baggage and is a much more equal environment?

It is definitely more equal than Westminster. Westminster has

improved but having women who are elected and having a higher

percentage of elected we met -- elected women is better.

You are able to raise any issue, I feel, in the chamber without there

being a sexist response. I didn't feel that in Westminster. I think

things are better in the Assembly but I'm not denying there may be

unconscious sexism operating, as it does everywhere. Part of the success

is there have been more female AM starts. -- more female AM 's.

The Labour Party had twinning when the Assembly started and I think

that was quite a difficult process to make happen. Quite a lot of

opposition. It started off the Assembly in a good way. The numbers

have slipped since then and it does seem to me you have to carry on with

these measures. You have to keep ensuring that women are there and

they are in the prominent public elected places because that means it

is less likely to have this sexism which unfortunately seems to operate

in every organisation. What is your party doing about it

and what are your selection besiegers for 2016? --

and what are your selection procedures. We are having all

short list and I hope we will be having them for 2016.

We used twinning originally but having them for 2016.

is difficult when you have got Assembly members already in seats. I

am firmly Assembly members already in seats. I

women short lists Assembly members already in seats. I

keep up. We have an equal level of men and women in Labour. I will be

supporting those measures in 2016 and they are already in place for

2015. Do you think he will counter assistants? -- you will encounter

resistance? People do say that women had to get in on their own merit but

if you look at the history, there has only ever been 13 female MPs and

don't tell me there is not more than that number capable of being MPs

than that! History tells us that we have to take these measures.

houses being built by the mayor. Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.

Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of

the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first

appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in

action. APPLAUSE

Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving

for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into

the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful. Now

the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what

about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed

Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the

programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering

her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the

local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,

can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next

series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there

is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local

MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.

They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big

opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity

television she have been on a celebrity

problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising

money for a good cause. I do not her spare time and it is raising

think we should eat two sniffy about her spare time and it is raising

it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your

programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare

time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for

Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we

going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury

does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth

has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in

a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There

are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My

job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure

that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more

broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal

seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats

everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince

Cable and I have been working together for the issues that

Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have

the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is

coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have

been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers

for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is

properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this

challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul

faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay

you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC

covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.

She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do

this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for

Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not

have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we

have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said

have a minister for the north-east, Does this mean that Portsmouth is

have a minister for the north-east, more deprived economic late than the

north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.

The Labour marginal seat.

morning and he outlined marginal seat.

a Labour government for an annual marginal seat.

competition audit. Here is what he had

competition audit. Here is what he government will have an annual

competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them

will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,

setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit

consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next

election as the party of competition, the party of the

consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.

They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the

next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the

party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the

party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual

competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling

banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller

ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that

this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who

think that through interfering with the market, through his price

freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this

before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise

of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is

creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets.

Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work.

There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.

Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in

those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were

suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In

the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.

That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector, our

bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into

account the become unaffordable. He has to make the case that consumers

are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it

is not about state intervention, but about making markets work. The piece

that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and

the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in

the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets

to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning.

Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as

the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are the Conservative Party, not seen as

seen as the party of business. competing against the big six. In

banking, competing against the big six. In

companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six

energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the

Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign

policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme

candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that

may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is

these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the

Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went

in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a

repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The

instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not

to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not

ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall

be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it? It

is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay

marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded

retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think

he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots

of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting

with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several

layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is

saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called

the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the

party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is

left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP

because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it

turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their

mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a

protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people

saying with the elite. You will get people

the entire political with the elite. You will get people

I am not sure with the elite. You will get people

that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about

climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big

protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots

of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the

only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice, the

first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a

conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David

Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I

think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the

only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice

they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,

it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this

week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing

between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats

and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,

I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the

issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord

Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.

Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday

on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,

it is the Sunday Politics.