26/01/2014 Sunday Politics Wales


26/01/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.

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He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back

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the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old

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Labour? If you go to work by public

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transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -

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again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's

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our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week

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across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?

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And coming up here: Lib Dem AM recent years by party veterans

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And coming up here: Lib Dem AM William Powell is warned about

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inappropriate behaviour. And with me - as always - the

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political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular

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they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate

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to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and

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they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami

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Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour

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would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.

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But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,

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Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a

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return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is

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anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this

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morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open

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up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely

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with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances

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and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last

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few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the

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next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the

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deficit down, of course they do. But to cut the top rate... It is foolish

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and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,

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pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get

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this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy

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work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now

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in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the

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political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new

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voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to

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vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people

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enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it

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is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving

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beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there

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has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the

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Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with

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their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done

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this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will

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have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony

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Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on

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how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things

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isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are

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going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push

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the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,

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?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All

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three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget

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surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12

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billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls

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is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate. The

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contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what

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does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is

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cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question

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that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the

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Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its

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side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking

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difficult for them this morning. Does it matter if Labour has

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business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this

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announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed

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Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a

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result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not

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to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a

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measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of

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things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has

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taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI

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don't want us to leave business. Business is in a bit of a cleft

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stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls

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is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on

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that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They

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probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this

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is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what

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go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was

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introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate

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where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib

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Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick

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Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking

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confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of

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criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a

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Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's

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Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority

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as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone

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to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting

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him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly

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destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I

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would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to

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stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in

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trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard

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over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of

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women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more. I

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said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of

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Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn't. I

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think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal

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Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say

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sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards

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legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.

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This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the

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leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due

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process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the

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Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the

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future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in

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the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses

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of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the

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simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the

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complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that

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arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?

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The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but

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if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some

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long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the

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innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due

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process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever

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did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing

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ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He

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refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that

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report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his

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membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a

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crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal

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action against the party by the man long credited with building its

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success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory

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MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the

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Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without

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any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather

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serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib

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Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into

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allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a

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constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these

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sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg

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ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most

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powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.

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Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already

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know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.

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You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two

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is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of

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coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak

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to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party

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veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a

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significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And

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here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all

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three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the

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outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon

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Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,

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"I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the

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candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen

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by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard

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thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to

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answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad

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politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic

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irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too

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democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed

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Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has

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to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it

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democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was

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voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was

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new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already

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hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long

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Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for

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them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this

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their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The

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third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in

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the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They

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do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris

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Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal

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Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a

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line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that

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the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that

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there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very

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difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is

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threatening through his friends, these famous friends, to spill all

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the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the

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Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where

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they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in

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the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the

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summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a

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good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising

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authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.

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Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a

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leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic

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or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it

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is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over

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events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You

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don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has

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been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over

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whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well

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there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's

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the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail

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commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost

:15:46.:15:47.

of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while

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wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail

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users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out

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more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get

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to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European

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counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their

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average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like

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season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with

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ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are

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more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins

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me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome. You claim to be in the

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party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power

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rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up

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in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms

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by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten

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years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The

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Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the

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passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year

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in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing

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huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for

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the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending ?500

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million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we

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are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will

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invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an

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expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season

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ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's

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look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost

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over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international

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cities. The British commuter is being ripped

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off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our

:18:52.:18:56.

railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge

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amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got

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here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White

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-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen

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transformational changes in our railway services and we need to

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carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started

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investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than

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our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy

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is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You

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is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to

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be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these

:20:07.:20:11.

figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their

:20:12.:20:17.

homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a

:20:18.:20:23.

reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway

:20:24.:20:26.

industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway

:20:27.:20:31.

20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to

:20:32.:20:40.

1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look

:20:41.:20:45.

1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German

:20:46.:20:45.

government, the Ministry of transport.

:20:46.:20:59.

They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to

:21:00.:21:05.

subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing

:21:06.:21:11.

British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are

:21:12.:21:16.

winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?

:21:17.:21:21.

They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more

:21:22.:21:25.

cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but

:21:26.:21:31.

overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still

:21:32.:21:36.

seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.

:21:37.:21:43.

Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the

:21:44.:21:49.

lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have

:21:50.:21:55.

stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised

:21:56.:22:01.

the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the

:22:02.:22:09.

lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for

:22:10.:22:15.

example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We

:22:16.:22:20.

are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is

:22:21.:22:24.

still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the

:22:25.:22:29.

rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you

:22:30.:22:34.

link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay

:22:35.:22:44.

for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton

:22:45.:22:48.

Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.5

:22:49.:22:53.

billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we

:22:54.:22:58.

have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for

:22:59.:23:11.

it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until

:23:12.:23:15.

the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket

:23:16.:23:24.

has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the

:23:25.:23:31.

passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who

:23:32.:23:46.

has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our

:23:47.:23:49.

railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance

:23:50.:23:54.

right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the

:23:55.:23:59.

user of public transport. I don't accept that. They are paying the

:24:00.:24:08.

same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that

:24:09.:24:15.

there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record

:24:16.:24:22.

amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a

:24:23.:24:27.

time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters

:24:28.:24:33.

particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of

:24:34.:24:39.

living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,

:24:40.:24:44.

and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered

:24:45.:24:59.

new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,

:25:00.:25:03.

they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you

:25:04.:25:09.

are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did

:25:10.:25:14.

before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It

:25:15.:25:19.

is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for. Why

:25:20.:25:28.

not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more

:25:29.:25:33.

pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we

:25:34.:25:38.

are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that

:25:39.:25:41.

is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,

:25:42.:25:47.

yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed

:25:48.:25:56.

two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your

:25:57.:26:01.

department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission

:26:02.:26:07.

to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now

:26:08.:26:12.

widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for

:26:13.:26:18.

purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it

:26:19.:26:24.

is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have

:26:25.:26:29.

extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to

:26:30.:26:40.

make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a

:26:41.:26:44.

different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.

:26:45.:26:58.

What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by

:26:59.:27:02.

Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and

:27:03.:27:07.

I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the

:27:08.:27:12.

end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the

:27:13.:27:17.

House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will

:27:18.:27:23.

get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the

:27:24.:27:29.

exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress

:27:30.:27:37.

through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have

:27:38.:27:44.

concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the

:27:45.:27:48.

line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure

:27:49.:27:58.

is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as

:27:59.:28:05.

chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are

:28:06.:28:08.

ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London

:28:09.:28:14.

we are building Crossrail, ?14.5 billion investment. There was a

:28:15.:28:19.

report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.

:28:20.:28:27.

Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in

:28:28.:28:36.

the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay

:28:37.:28:41.

people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on

:28:42.:28:47.

?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are

:28:48.:28:54.

very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we

:28:55.:28:59.

are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.

:29:00.:29:04.

It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather

:29:05.:29:08.

pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big

:29:09.:29:13.

rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national

:29:14.:29:17.

infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty

:29:18.:29:24.

so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and

:29:25.:29:28.

all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the

:29:29.:29:32.

Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what

:29:33.:29:36.

our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take

:29:37.:29:42.

them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many

:29:43.:29:52.

conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the

:29:53.:30:00.

immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and

:30:01.:30:06.

Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of

:30:07.:30:11.

migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been

:30:12.:30:16.

more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz

:30:17.:30:21.

greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days

:30:22.:30:26.

and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new

:30:27.:30:29.

Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from

:30:30.:30:35.

backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel

:30:36.:30:40.

Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians

:30:41.:30:51.

can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the

:30:52.:30:55.

amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there

:30:56.:31:03.

hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to

:31:04.:31:07.

restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to

:31:08.:31:12.

2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st,

:31:13.:31:16.

Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350,000

:31:17.:31:21.

people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,

:31:22.:31:27.

especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in

:31:28.:31:31.

excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The

:31:32.:31:36.

real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,

:31:37.:31:42.

attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our

:31:43.:31:46.

people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to

:31:47.:31:51.

accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding

:31:52.:31:56.

principle of the European Union? We were trying to keep the restrictions

:31:57.:32:00.

that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU

:32:01.:32:04.

membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't

:32:05.:32:09.

aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still

:32:10.:32:12.

recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK

:32:13.:32:18.

Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible

:32:19.:32:22.

recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is

:32:23.:32:26.

worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their

:32:27.:32:35.

accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a

:32:36.:32:38.

law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?

:32:39.:32:43.

Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in

:32:44.:32:50.

work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane

:32:51.:32:55.

Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach

:32:56.:32:59.

of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs

:33:00.:33:04.

have been particularly mindless, because what they want to do

:33:05.:33:08.

wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say

:33:09.:33:14.

so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be

:33:15.:33:21.

going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.

:33:22.:33:25.

They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed

:33:26.:33:29.

to be debating before Christmas. As we speak they've not cut a deal, so

:33:30.:33:34.

it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I

:33:35.:33:40.

think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount

:33:41.:33:45.

of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to

:33:46.:33:49.

achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get

:33:50.:33:53.

free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I

:33:54.:33:57.

think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking

:33:58.:34:01.

for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years

:34:02.:34:06.

while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about

:34:07.:34:11.

the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in

:34:12.:34:16.

the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they

:34:17.:34:21.

said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using

:34:22.:34:25.

their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the

:34:26.:34:29.

past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they

:34:30.:34:34.

take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating

:34:35.:34:39.

Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing

:34:40.:34:43.

people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party

:34:44.:34:48.

apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,

:34:49.:34:53.

Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather

:34:54.:34:58.

see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a

:34:59.:35:04.

very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute

:35:05.:35:08.

book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need

:35:09.:35:12.

to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU

:35:13.:35:16.

migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill

:35:17.:35:24.

without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the

:35:25.:35:29.

bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will

:35:30.:35:34.

depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking

:35:35.:35:41.

tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has

:35:42.:35:45.

been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed

:35:46.:35:49.

Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the

:35:50.:35:54.

Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for

:35:55.:36:01.

the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He

:36:02.:36:06.

hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this

:36:07.:36:11.

end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of

:36:12.:36:16.

amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We

:36:17.:36:20.

want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am

:36:21.:36:25.

proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the

:36:26.:36:29.

restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and

:36:30.:36:34.

driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more

:36:35.:36:39.

measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be --

:36:40.:36:47.

popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane

:36:48.:36:53.

Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and

:36:54.:36:56.

high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP

:36:57.:36:59.

councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last

:37:00.:37:01.

weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay

:37:02.:37:04.

marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to

:37:05.:37:08.

bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least

:37:09.:37:10.

UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics.

:37:11.:37:19.

Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week

:37:20.:37:21.

ahead with our political panel. Hello and on the Sunday Politics

:37:22.:37:38.

Wales: We'll hear from the Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood on her

:37:39.:37:43.

party's ambitions. If the UK is seeing a real economic recovery, is

:37:44.:37:48.

Wales leading the way? And Labour MP Mick Antoniw tells us about his

:37:49.:37:53.

recent visit to Ukraine. But first, the Welsh Liberal

:37:54.:37:56.

Democrats have confirmed that their Assembly Member William Powell was

:37:57.:38:00.

given a formal written warning, following a complaint of

:38:01.:38:03.

inappropriate behaviour by a young female activist. The woman, now aged

:38:04.:38:10.

21, alleged that in 2011 he gave her and two other women drink, touched

:38:11.:38:14.

her leg and put his hands around her waist. Mr Powell has offered an

:38:15.:38:20.

unreserved apology. Our political editor joins me now. What more can

:38:21.:38:26.

you tell us? The party says it dealt with this matter last year and it

:38:27.:38:30.

relates to an incident concerning the Assembly Member William Powell

:38:31.:38:35.

and someone who is a member of the party, who is 21 now. It related to

:38:36.:38:43.

an incident in June 2011 in which she says she and two other women

:38:44.:38:47.

were given the strong alcoholic drink absinthe by William Powell,

:38:48.:38:54.

who then touched her leg, and, she says, inappropriately grabbed her

:38:55.:39:01.

waist. In response to that, the party is saying that she did not

:39:02.:39:06.

want to issue a formal grievance procedure and wanted to remain

:39:07.:39:10.

anonymous, but she wanted to let the party know about what has happened

:39:11.:39:14.

and as a result of that, she told the local chair of her party. Did

:39:15.:39:18.

the party have anything further to add? It says that even though it

:39:19.:39:24.

wasn't a formal grievance procedure, it treated it in that way and the

:39:25.:39:29.

Chief Whip in Cardiff Bay for the Welsh Liberal Democrats, Aled

:39:30.:39:33.

Roberts, met with William Powell and he had a formal warning and was told

:39:34.:39:37.

his behaviour was unacceptable, and that if any such behaviour on a more

:39:38.:39:41.

serious level happened, there would be more serious consequences. We've

:39:42.:39:45.

also had a statement from William Powell, in which he offered an

:39:46.:39:49.

unreserved apology and has offered to meet anyone who was offended by

:39:50.:39:52.

this incident in person or in writing as a result of that. It is

:39:53.:39:58.

further embarrassment for the Liberal Democrats, isn't it? It

:39:59.:40:02.

comes at a pretty awful time for them in terms of these stories,

:40:03.:40:07.

which have dominated the headlines in relation to the Liberal

:40:08.:40:09.

Democrats, primarily about allegations of sexual harassment

:40:10.:40:14.

either Lib Dem peer and former chief executive of the party Lord Rennard.

:40:15.:40:18.

He's been suspended by the party because he has refused to apologise

:40:19.:40:23.

for any of the claims, which he denies, made against him. There is

:40:24.:40:28.

also an incident involving Mike Hancock, a former MP for the party,

:40:29.:40:34.

with allegations of misconduct with a constituent, which he denies. And

:40:35.:40:39.

Kirsty Williams, the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, did say in

:40:40.:40:42.

a briefing last week about the party had introduced a new code of conduct

:40:43.:40:47.

for party members in Wales but that was in response to the Lord Rennard

:40:48.:40:50.

inquiry, rather than anything to do with William Powell. Thanks very

:40:51.:40:55.

much. This week saw a welcome fall in

:40:56.:40:59.

unemployment in Wales, with the rate here much lower than other parts of

:41:00.:41:03.

the UK. Downing Street also claims we are starting to feel better off,

:41:04.:41:09.

so are we seeing a real economic recovery? And if Wales is

:41:10.:41:11.

outperforming other parts of Britain, who should get the credit?

:41:12.:41:18.

After several years in neutral, it looks like the Welsh economy is on

:41:19.:41:23.

the move. Steel is being unloaded from as far-away as India, Turkey

:41:24.:41:27.

and Russia, here at Cardiff docks. The figures bear it out -

:41:28.:41:33.

unemployment in Wales is down sharply and stands at 7.2%. What's

:41:34.:41:39.

going on? Ultimately, I think it's the tax regime that he coalition

:41:40.:41:45.

government have put in place that rewards businesses that invest and

:41:46.:41:54.

expand. Things have been challenging but the government has kept interest

:41:55.:41:56.

rates low, incentivised investment in businesses and repaired the

:41:57.:42:00.

economy for the uplift we are seeing now. Nothing can be taken for

:42:01.:42:04.

granted. This is the beginning but it is a welcome beginning, with a

:42:05.:42:10.

dramatic decline in unemployment, steady interest rates for those who

:42:11.:42:14.

invest, and a spring in the step of businesses going into 2014. It seems

:42:15.:42:19.

there really is an uplift and Wales is performing particularly well.

:42:20.:42:24.

Unemployment is lower in Wales than many regions of England. That's a

:42:25.:42:27.

very different pattern from previous recoveries. Nobody is arguing with

:42:28.:42:33.

the figures but there is a political row about who should take the

:42:34.:42:37.

credit. The UK government, run by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,

:42:38.:42:40.

or the Welsh Government, where labour is in charge? Only some

:42:41.:42:45.

elements of economic policy are devolved but the Welsh Government

:42:46.:42:49.

says its approach, helping to keep employees on shorter hours rather

:42:50.:42:52.

than putting them out of work, for instance, are part of the mix, too.

:42:53.:42:58.

The economy minister, visiting a successful bakery this week, says

:42:59.:43:04.

devolution helped sweeten the pill when the downturn began. We've

:43:05.:43:06.

although it from previous recessions and recoveries and when everything

:43:07.:43:12.

started to hit, we look to where our policies were at that stage at what

:43:13.:43:16.

we could do to help companies keep people, even if they didn't have the

:43:17.:43:22.

work. We started initiatives and followed on and that has made a

:43:23.:43:25.

difference, since the Assembly has been in place. It's a row that is

:43:26.:43:30.

likely to dominate politics as the general election approaches. Welsh

:43:31.:43:34.

MPs had their say this week, even if things did get a bit heated. Can we

:43:35.:43:40.

be careful about language. I've heard words like misleading and so

:43:41.:43:46.

on, so can we be careful about the language we use in terms of

:43:47.:43:48.

disagreeing with other people's arguments. Experts say the devolved

:43:49.:43:53.

approach has helped keep people in work, even if it means the labour

:43:54.:43:59.

market looks a little different. I think the Welsh Government has been

:44:00.:44:02.

crippled by things in the past, perhaps unfairly. Some of the

:44:03.:44:08.

policies and procedures and their impact has helped the Welsh economy

:44:09.:44:15.

and has helped the citizens of Wales to reap some of the benefits of this

:44:16.:44:20.

recovery. But again, within Wales, when you look at the statistics

:44:21.:44:24.

there are an awful lot of part-time jobs - far more than they were at

:44:25.:44:32.

the beginning, in 2006-7. The other parties think things may be looking

:44:33.:44:36.

better on the surface but serious problems are still not being

:44:37.:44:40.

addressed. What we say in Plaid Cymru is that there is much more

:44:41.:44:45.

that needs to be done, especially in getting the young unemployed into

:44:46.:44:47.

work because that figure of youth unemployment in Wales is still

:44:48.:44:52.

stubbornly high, higher than the rest of the UK. Four times more

:44:53.:44:57.

long-term unemployed now than when the Welsh Government came into power

:44:58.:45:01.

and clearly, that's an area we need to focus on. It is still a fragile

:45:02.:45:06.

recovery but it does seem that Wales is climbing out of an economic

:45:07.:45:09.

trough. The question now is whether there will be a wider improvement in

:45:10.:45:13.

living standards and overall Welsh GDP, and whether that'll have any

:45:14.:45:17.

bearing on who we decide to vote for.

:45:18.:45:21.

My next guest says she's focused on the economy. Light can really do

:45:22.:45:26.

Leanne Wood also says 2014 should be the year Wales says yes to ambition.

:45:27.:45:33.

-- Plaid Cymru leader. She started the year with a slimmed down cabinet

:45:34.:45:38.

she says, to reflect Ostia times. Let's start with the economy. If we

:45:39.:45:47.

are going to see a real economy recovery now, given that you have

:45:48.:45:51.

been so scathing of austerity, doesn't this mean you were wrong to

:45:52.:45:55.

say that George Osborne had cut too far, too fast? The first point to

:45:56.:46:01.

make is that there appears to be a global upturn and the second point

:46:02.:46:05.

is that any recovery that is happening at a UK level doesn't

:46:06.:46:10.

necessarily trickle down to Wales. We know there are still great

:46:11.:46:15.

problems within the Welsh economy. Youth unemployment is a particular

:46:16.:46:19.

problem. Long-term youth unemployment has risen by about

:46:20.:46:25.

400%. So our economy has deep and grave problems. We know, as well,

:46:26.:46:30.

that there are greater numbers of people on zero hours contracts,

:46:31.:46:35.

large numbers of people underemployed - so you've got

:46:36.:46:37.

graduate is working in bars and restaurants. So although there may

:46:38.:46:43.

be, superficially, some signs of recovery, I would question the

:46:44.:46:47.

amount that that recovery is actually affecting Wales. So the

:46:48.:46:53.

debate about who gets the credit about the recovery, you say nobody

:46:54.:47:01.

does? Yes, in effect. And for us to shape our economy in Wales, it's in

:47:02.:47:06.

our hands to do so. Only people in Wales can do that and for us to

:47:07.:47:11.

expect others from elsewhere to be able to rejuvenate our economy for

:47:12.:47:18.

us is a forlorn hope. Where do you stand on this increase in the top

:47:19.:47:21.

rate of income tax to 50p that Ed balls outlined yesterday? Plaid

:47:22.:47:26.

Cymru has said all along that all those who can afford to pay should

:47:27.:47:31.

pay for the mess that was caused by the bankers so I would support

:47:32.:47:35.

higher taxes for those who can afford to pay them on a UK level.

:47:36.:47:42.

Higher than 50p? We can debate the ins and outs of that. Ultimately,

:47:43.:47:47.

what you need to do is introduce policies that maximise the tax take

:47:48.:47:51.

and it does get to a point where the higher you tax, below are rate you

:47:52.:47:57.

have coming in so you need to be able to tax at a rate where you can

:47:58.:48:01.

maximise the income coming in. But I think it's also fair to point out

:48:02.:48:04.

that there are major problems with tax evasion and avoidance, as well,

:48:05.:48:09.

and with cuts to HMRC the numbers of tax collectors have gone down so the

:48:10.:48:15.

amount of tax able to be collected has reduced, so that's another area

:48:16.:48:23.

that needs discussing. Income tax devolution could be on the cards -

:48:24.:48:27.

are you in favour of that? Will you insist on it if there are coalition

:48:28.:48:31.

talks after the next Assembly elections? We've been clear that we

:48:32.:48:37.

need the tools here in Wales to do the job of turning around our

:48:38.:48:41.

economy and sharing income tax powers, as proposed by the

:48:42.:48:46.

commission, is one way where we could take control of our economy in

:48:47.:48:51.

a far more robust way than we are now. But will you insist on a

:48:52.:48:56.

referendum if there are coalition talks after the next Assembly

:48:57.:49:01.

election? I'm not prepared to talk about red line issues at this point

:49:02.:49:05.

in time. What I said about a referendum is that it has to be

:49:06.:49:09.

something we can actually put to the people and have a chance of winning.

:49:10.:49:14.

The problem with the offer that's there at the moment is that it's got

:49:15.:49:18.

a lock in it, which means those tax powers, if they are devolved, would

:49:19.:49:23.

be pretty useless. There would be few parties that would actually use

:49:24.:49:27.

them. We want tax powers that can be used in our MPs will be working very

:49:28.:49:33.

hard to try to remove that lock so that we can have powers that we can

:49:34.:49:40.

actually use. The Wales Bill will also get rid of a ban on dual

:49:41.:49:45.

candidacy in elections, allowing candidates to stand in a

:49:46.:49:48.

constituency and the region. You want to stand in the Rhondda but

:49:49.:49:51.

will you hedge your bets and stand in a region, as well, if you get in

:49:52.:50:00.

the -- get the opportunity? Yes, I would like that but I think

:50:01.:50:05.

politicians talking about electoral arrangements and focusing on that is

:50:06.:50:07.

deeply unattractive to the electorate. Euros this some time ago

:50:08.:50:12.

when you said you wanted to stand in a constituency. Does it undermine

:50:13.:50:19.

your position a bit if you say, "I'm going to have the security of a list

:50:20.:50:26.

seat, as well" ? When I made that announcement, the situation was

:50:27.:50:30.

different to what it is now. There was a ban on standing on the

:50:31.:50:34.

regional list and in a constituency. There are moves now to remove that

:50:35.:50:38.

ban but we still don't know what the situation would be by 2016 and,

:50:39.:50:43.

either way, I will be standing in the Rhondda and I'll be standing to

:50:44.:50:48.

win that constituency seat. Turning back to the economy, you've tried to

:50:49.:50:52.

offer your own solutions to what the Labour Party is called a cost of

:50:53.:50:55.

living crisis - I'm thinking of energy bills, where you think you

:50:56.:50:59.

can find a way to bring them down with a new player in the energy

:51:00.:51:05.

market in Wales. Would a new source of energy, from shale gas, do more

:51:06.:51:11.

to bring down energy bills? Well, the evidence so far suggests that

:51:12.:51:15.

the introduction of shale gas would not significantly reduce hills. We

:51:16.:51:22.

should do all we can to reduce people's bills because the increase

:51:23.:51:25.

in bills has been phenomenal over the last few years and the prophets

:51:26.:51:30.

by the energy companies as gone up by 73% in just three years, so

:51:31.:51:34.

that's something that needs to be addressed. Plaid Cymru's position is

:51:35.:51:39.

that public services should be run in the interests of people, not

:51:40.:51:44.

profit, so we would like to, and a Plaid Cymru government, set up a

:51:45.:51:47.

Welsh energy company which can bulk buy energy and then sell on back to

:51:48.:51:52.

consumers in the form of householders and businesses, at a

:51:53.:51:58.

much cheaper cost. But I'm asking you about fracking - do you support

:51:59.:52:04.

fracking? We would say that any developments for energy have to be

:52:05.:52:09.

considered in the light of what safe and there are many questions about

:52:10.:52:14.

fracking which are yet to be answered. The other question, as far

:52:15.:52:18.

as Wales is concerned, is who gets to decide and who gets to receive

:52:19.:52:23.

the benefits from any energy generation. Sounds like you are yet

:52:24.:52:28.

to make up your mind. Plaid Cymru wants to see far more effort in the

:52:29.:52:34.

development of renewable energy. If you're investing in fossil fuel

:52:35.:52:37.

based energy, you're not investing in renewable energy. Wouldn't farms

:52:38.:52:42.

are one aspect of renewable energy but there are a range of other

:52:43.:52:45.

technologies which are not utilised yet in Wales - marine technology,

:52:46.:52:51.

hydropower, solar power - which we could expand upon. And community

:52:52.:52:56.

generation, too. Then east to be more incentives for able to generate

:52:57.:53:01.

their own energy. -- there needs to be. Wales is a net exporter of

:53:02.:53:07.

energy and we pay more for our electricity than people do in other

:53:08.:53:11.

parts of the UK. So this is an iniquitous situation. You mentioned

:53:12.:53:16.

public services. A big change, possibly, is the merger of councils.

:53:17.:53:21.

The First Minister wants consensus but I gather your party wants

:53:22.:53:24.

proportional representation or change in the voting system. Are you

:53:25.:53:32.

going to insist on that? We have yet to discuss the proposals. We are

:53:33.:53:36.

going to extensively consult with our councillors and members before

:53:37.:53:39.

issuing a position. But the commission offers us a great

:53:40.:53:44.

opportunity to change the way we run public services in Wales. The report

:53:45.:53:49.

shone a light on public services and showed there was patchy provision,

:53:50.:53:53.

postcode lotteries, inaccessible services in some places. This is a

:53:54.:53:59.

great opportunity to address that but public services are much wider

:54:00.:54:02.

than local authorities and this is a great opportunity to look at public

:54:03.:54:07.

service position -- provision right across the board. We need to start

:54:08.:54:11.

from the place of considering what the best way is to provide public

:54:12.:54:16.

services in Wales. You've talked about recruiting more doctors.

:54:17.:54:18.

Initially you said you'd find that with your levy on sugary drinks but

:54:19.:54:24.

now you say that's just one option. Are you rowing back on the pop tax?

:54:25.:54:30.

No, it has been proposed that we could take innovative tax decisions

:54:31.:54:34.

and Plaid Cymru has put forward one use of such innovative taxes. If we

:54:35.:54:40.

did introduce a tax on sugary drinks, what we would want to

:54:41.:54:43.

achieve is a reduction in consumption. So if it was a

:54:44.:54:46.

successful policy, the amount of money it would bring in would be

:54:47.:54:50.

reduced but there are other aspects of the budget that could be looked

:54:51.:54:54.

at to pay for these doctors. Where we are at the moment in Wales is way

:54:55.:55:00.

behind the UK average and the Scottish average for doctors per

:55:01.:55:02.

head of the population. That's an unacceptable situation. Our health

:55:03.:55:07.

reconfiguration is going ahead on the basis that we don't have enough

:55:08.:55:11.

doctors so we have to address that and the innovative tax is one way to

:55:12.:55:15.

do it. We're out of time. Thank you for joining me.

:55:16.:55:20.

Now a quick look back at some of the political stories of the week in 60

:55:21.:55:29.

seconds. Talks on merging local councils

:55:30.:55:31.

should start before Easter, according to this man. Paul Williams

:55:32.:55:36.

led the commission on Public services for the Welsh Government,

:55:37.:55:40.

which called for a big shake-up, saying the number of councils should

:55:41.:55:45.

be cut from 22 to ten. The Welsh Conservatives want a more clever

:55:46.:55:48.

approach to attracting foreign investors. They unveiled plans for a

:55:49.:55:54.

privately run investment Counsel to reverse the decline in inward

:55:55.:55:57.

investments as the 1980s. The Welsh Government said an upturn last year

:55:58.:56:02.

showed they were on the right track. Nearly 400 more civil servants were

:56:03.:56:04.

hired by the Welsh Government in the last two years but the number of

:56:05.:56:10.

mandarins across the UK fell. The Welsh Government said its headcount

:56:11.:56:12.

had fallen by more than a thousand in the last two years. And from too

:56:13.:56:19.

many councillors to to view AMs - the Assembly needs more members,

:56:20.:56:21.

according to the Presiding Officer. Dame Rosemary Butler said the number

:56:22.:56:27.

should rise up or the strain would begin to tell.

:56:28.:56:37.

Opposition figures in Ukraine say their anti-government demonstrations

:56:38.:56:40.

will continue, despite efforts by the country's president to end the

:56:41.:56:43.

violence by offering them key government posts. Last night,

:56:44.:56:48.

hundreds of protesters firebombed a conference hall being used by

:56:49.:56:52.

security forces in the capital, Kiev. The AM for Pontypridd, Mick

:56:53.:56:58.

Antoniw, has just returned from Kiev, where he was part of the

:56:59.:57:08.

delegation from the EU's committee. Thanks for joining us. What is the

:57:09.:57:12.

situation like in Kiev? Very grim and very tense at the moment. But

:57:13.:57:17.

what's very clear is that the people in Kiev and the surrounding areas

:57:18.:57:22.

have got an enormous confidence that perhaps the tide is changing and

:57:23.:57:26.

they are beginning to win. They have one very clear demand - they want a

:57:27.:57:31.

democratic, accountable government. For them, that means that the

:57:32.:57:36.

president has to go. Whilst I was there, people were being shot on the

:57:37.:57:43.

streets. People had limbs blown off. It's a frightening situation.

:57:44.:57:46.

Absolutely and it was happening while we were there. That's why we

:57:47.:57:50.

refused to meet the government while we were there. But there is a voice

:57:51.:57:54.

of people saying, "we want the world to know" . Whatever happens in

:57:55.:57:59.

Ukraine will have an impact throughout the whole of Europe. It's

:58:00.:58:05.

interesting to see the protest movement has now expanded across the

:58:06.:58:10.

whole of Ukraine. Who is this protest movement? Who is fighting

:58:11.:58:15.

here? What's clear is that the political parties obviously have a

:58:16.:58:17.

role to play but they are not the leaders. I can only describe this as

:58:18.:58:23.

a common uprising of people. People I met were lawyers, teachers,

:58:24.:58:27.

doctors, across the whole range of society, and they're not led by

:58:28.:58:33.

political parties. They say, "we have to win because if we don't, we

:58:34.:58:40.

may be arrested and killed" . It is about creating a modern democratic

:58:41.:58:45.

government and being part of Europe. You were representing an EU

:58:46.:58:49.

institution so you presumably have a view on what Ukraine's policy should

:58:50.:58:53.

be. At what point in all of this did the government of Ukraine lose its

:58:54.:59:00.

legitimacy? In a number of ways. Firstly when it changed the

:59:01.:59:03.

constitution to effectively transfer all powers to the president.

:59:04.:59:08.

Secondly, when the president took control of the constitutional court,

:59:09.:59:10.

so there are no independent courts in Ukraine. And thirdly, when it

:59:11.:59:16.

authorised the police to use lethal force against demonstrators. But the

:59:17.:59:20.

president has offered concessions and they've been refused. What do

:59:21.:59:28.

they want out of this? What is the endgame? Constitutional change and

:59:29.:59:32.

fresh elections, and an independent Electoral Commission. It's fair to

:59:33.:59:37.

say there has been no really fair election in Ukraine since the state

:59:38.:59:42.

was established and it's very clear that if the president remains in

:59:43.:59:47.

position, with his powers, he will win the next election, irrespective

:59:48.:59:51.

of the number of votes cast. One wonders when it will end because you

:59:52.:59:54.

hear reports of government buildings outside Kiev Ian seized. It looks

:59:55.:59:59.

like it's spreading. Will have more confidence, particularly in the east

:00:00.:00:03.

of Ukraine, where you see far more demonstrators and protest staking

:00:04.:00:08.

place. They have been very politically controlled over the last

:00:09.:00:12.

few decades and the fact is that people have more confidence now but

:00:13.:00:14.

there is one common theme running through here - time and time again,

:00:15.:00:20.

people say they want to be democratic, they want fair

:00:21.:00:25.

elections, and an end to what they describe as gangster capitalism. We

:00:26.:00:29.

have to leave it there, Mick. Thank you for coming

:00:30.:00:29.

have to leave it there, Mick. Thank you for coming

:00:30.:00:41.

back to you. UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never

:00:42.:00:44.

far away from controversy, but this week he's been outdoing himself. He

:00:45.:00:47.

was hit over the head with a placard by a protester in Kent, provoked

:00:48.:00:50.

outrage by saying women with children are worth less to city

:00:51.:00:53.

firms, and said the ban on owning handguns was 'crackers'. He also

:00:54.:01:00.

seemed less than sure of his party's own policies when I interviewed him

:01:01.:01:04.

on the Daily Politics. And the story that got everyone talking was the

:01:05.:01:07.

suggestion by a UKIP councillor that flooding is linked to gay marriage.

:01:08.:01:12.

We'll talk about all of that in a moment, but first, over to Nigel

:01:13.:01:20.

with the weather. Weather for all areas of the British Isles but

:01:21.:01:24.

definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." You may have heard about a storm in

:01:25.:01:29.

a tea cup developed when you kip councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the

:01:30.:01:36.

floods on the gay marriage Bill. The old party is focusing on the view of

:01:37.:01:40.

UKIP members like him, even though he had said a sell yuj of things

:01:41.:01:48.

before when a Tory councillor. How quickly things change depending on

:01:49.:01:55.

when the blouse. There are occasional barmy views by people of

:01:56.:02:02.

all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour councillor claimed of fathered a

:02:03.:02:06.

child with an extra terrorist ral, and said his real mother was a 9

:02:07.:02:17.

foot green alien. And in Wales a councillor

:02:18.:02:24.

thinking about heading off for the slopes, there were flurries of

:02:25.:02:31.

embarrassment for the Tories after Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing

:02:32.:02:37.

party in a resort. Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps

:02:38.:02:43.

on the gravy train, watch out for hot air.

:02:44.:02:47.

In Britain temperatures are rising ahead of the European elections in

:02:48.:02:55.

May. It could get stormy, so advise light aircraft. Watch out for

:02:56.:03:00.

outbreaks of common sense, and no chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back

:03:01.:03:05.

to you, Andrew, with the rest of the Sunday Politics.

:03:06.:03:10.

Nick, if it was any other party that had bon through the past week it

:03:11.:03:14.

would be in meltdown. And maybe it is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't.

:03:15.:03:19.

What do you think? That just shows, that great weather forecast, Prince

:03:20.:03:25.

Charles now has a rival to be an excellent weather forecaster, as

:03:26.:03:30.

does the Duchess of Cornwall. It shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr

:03:31.:03:36.

candidate to the European elections. Our invitation to the British people

:03:37.:03:39.

to kick the establishment. The establishment have spent five years

:03:40.:03:43.

that the European Parliament is a waste of time, so who are you going

:03:44.:03:48.

to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of person. What was important about

:03:49.:03:54.

your eadviceration of Nigel Farage on Daily Politics is that when it

:03:55.:03:58.

came to the substance, they flounder. But the point about that

:03:59.:04:02.

party is they may have the thinnest set of policies, but people know

:04:03.:04:07.

what they stand for more than any other parties - get out of Europe, a

:04:08.:04:14.

grammar school in every town. If any other leading politician called for

:04:15.:04:20.

an end to the ban on handguns, at a time when we've seen these appalling

:04:21.:04:23.

gun deaths in the United States, now almost one every week in some

:04:24.:04:27.

terrible siege in a school. It would be a crisis. It seems to wash off

:04:28.:04:38.

him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into

:04:39.:04:42.

another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't

:04:43.:04:48.

think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this

:04:49.:04:53.

country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a

:04:54.:04:59.

Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to

:05:00.:05:04.

the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is

:05:05.:05:08.

terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other

:05:09.:05:13.

parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and

:05:14.:05:19.

embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not

:05:20.:05:25.

working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,

:05:26.:05:29.

if you are an anti-system party, the rules of the game which apply to the

:05:30.:05:34.

establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and

:05:35.:05:40.

embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take

:05:41.:05:46.

something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the

:05:47.:05:52.

following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's

:05:53.:05:55.

strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives. The

:05:56.:05:59.

electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat

:06:00.:06:05.

into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general

:06:06.:06:10.

election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will

:06:11.:06:18.

run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That

:06:19.:06:23.

sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,

:06:24.:06:26.

could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?

:06:27.:06:33.

The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political

:06:34.:06:38.

party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way

:06:39.:06:43.

it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do

:06:44.:06:50.

this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It

:06:51.:06:57.

would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.

:06:58.:07:07.

Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.

:07:08.:07:15.

Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the phone. Good to know you are watching

:07:16.:07:21.

but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency

:07:22.:07:26.

commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming

:07:27.:07:30.

leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the

:07:31.:07:34.

show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that

:07:35.:07:36.

housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour

:07:37.:07:39.

Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the

:07:40.:07:43.

price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce

:07:44.:07:46.

what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable

:07:47.:07:52.

housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really

:07:53.:07:56.

important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a ?23

:07:57.:08:04.

billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual

:08:05.:08:08.

builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.

:08:09.:08:12.

Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built

:08:13.:08:17.

170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we've

:08:18.:08:24.

made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is

:08:25.:08:29.

a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a

:08:30.:08:33.

lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year

:08:34.:08:37.

and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest

:08:38.:08:43.

interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the

:08:44.:08:46.

system through the planning regulations. In London there is a

:08:47.:08:52.

gap in the hedge through Richmond Park through which you should be

:08:53.:08:56.

able to see St Paul's Cathedral. That's why you cannot build homes

:08:57.:09:00.

where you want them. I don't think we want to build homes over Richmond

:09:01.:09:07.

Park. He wasn't saying that. That's dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine.

:09:08.:09:13.

You've got to deal with supply, which is why Labour is talking about

:09:14.:09:17.

200,000 a year, and what George Osborne has done with supply is

:09:18.:09:24.

helping with demand. We know the Help to Buy Scheme is pretty

:09:25.:09:27.

dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen to put the break on that. If you are

:09:28.:09:34.

to deal with supply, you have to do radical things. Chris Huhne talked

:09:35.:09:38.

about on brownfield sites you can tax people who are holding the land

:09:39.:09:42.

as if the development has taken place. Then if you are really going

:09:43.:09:47.

to deal with it you have to talk about the greenfield sites, and you

:09:48.:09:51.

have to deal with the garden cities argument, which is too much for the

:09:52.:09:55.

Tories. All the parties seem to agree building new houses is a

:09:56.:09:58.

political winner. I hope that they are right. I'm not sure they are.

:09:59.:10:04.

The housing market is the example of what economists call the insider

:10:05.:10:08.

in-outsider problem. People who are already homeowners have no rational

:10:09.:10:13.

incentive to vote for more housing stock. Even if you leave aside the

:10:14.:10:18.

Conservative arable objections, if you are a homeowner there is an

:10:19.:10:22.

interest to stick with the planning promise that we have. So then we are

:10:23.:10:26.

stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not only are we growing at

:10:27.:10:31.

the moment but our population is growing. I've seen projects that in

:10:32.:10:36.

quite quickly we will overtake Germany and become the largest

:10:37.:10:40.

populated country in Europe. If that's the case we've got to build

:10:41.:10:45.

homes. We have. If you look at Tower Hamlets in London, the population is

:10:46.:10:49.

r ging higher than the number of dwelling. Classically the theory's

:10:50.:10:54.

been young people are most affected by this and they don't vote much.

:10:55.:11:01.

But when their parents have young Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's

:11:02.:11:07.

an electoral issue. That's why the garden cities project is

:11:08.:11:10.

interesting, because they finance themselves. You zone it for

:11:11.:11:15.

development, it is worth ?2 million an acre and then you can build on

:11:16.:11:21.

it. But who is going to want the greenfield sites gone. And how

:11:22.:11:26.

quickly can we build garden cities today? Some were started before the

:11:27.:11:31.

Town and Country Planning Act. I've read stats about the way Chinese and

:11:32.:11:36.

Japanese are building houses and they were slower than that. Here's a

:11:37.:11:40.

thought, sticking on the housing theme. Ed Miliband came up with the

:11:41.:11:45.

energy freeze, a populist interventionist move. Then the use

:11:46.:11:50.

it or lose it to land developers. Then breaking up the banks. Now the

:11:51.:11:55.

50p tax rate. How much would you put on Labour coming up for rent

:11:56.:12:00.

controls? That's already a big split. They are split already on it.

:12:01.:12:05.

They have. In London it is a popular policy. It might not play well in

:12:06.:12:09.

the rest of the country. I would say 50-50 on that. I think Labour

:12:10.:12:13.

supporting rent controls like the Tories having a go at welfare. The

:12:14.:12:17.

policy may be individually popular but it sends an impression about the

:12:18.:12:21.

party which might be less attract active. It confirms underlying

:12:22.:12:26.

suspicions that vote these guys into power and suddenly they are

:12:27.:12:30.

tampering with the private economy. The memories of the '70s when

:12:31.:12:34.

Governments tried and failed to do that. It is riskier than a

:12:35.:12:38.

superficial reading of the polls would suggest. One to watch? I think

:12:39.:12:42.

they are looking at it. That was the key message of the Ed Balls speech

:12:43.:12:48.

on housing, is looking at supply and how you get to that 200,000 figure a

:12:49.:12:53.

year, which is substantially more than what Kris Hopkins is talking

:12:54.:12:57.

about. What we didn't get to talk about, remember we had Michael

:12:58.:13:02.

Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of Schools. We all consumed was Mr

:13:03.:13:06.

Gove's man, the Education Secretary's man. Now according to

:13:07.:13:09.

the Sunday Times he is spitting blood about the way Mr Gove and his

:13:10.:13:13.

office are speaking about him behind the scenes. We've checked the quotes

:13:14.:13:17.

and he stands by them, so I think we'll have to have the head of

:13:18.:13:22.

Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that

:13:23.:13:26.

to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.

:13:27.:13:29.

That's all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is

:13:30.:13:33.

back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, and I'll be here again next week.

:13:34.:13:36.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:37.:13:40.

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