Browse content similar to 02/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
him beat his brother to the top. Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce. | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water. | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
Later in the programme, I speak to traffic and travel report. Dutch | :01:20. | :01:35. | |
Later in the programme, I speak to Health MInister Mark Drakeford about | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
Will it provide the kind of reassurance people want? | :01:38. | :01:47. | |
Yes, all that and more in today's action-packed Sunday Politics. And | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the | :02:17. | :02:18. | |
party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman, | :02:24. | :02:32. | |
speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny, | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and | :02:53. | :03:02. | |
Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4 | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
moment? I don't know about that. It is certainly a bold move, | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members. So | :03:41. | :03:49. | |
the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is | :03:50. | :03:59. | |
currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication, | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far, | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
union members to support that an individual basis the next five | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
at a third stage. So the implications in terms of | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3 | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money | :06:53. | :07:00. | |
themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect. | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me | :07:49. | :08:03. | |
kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
fight for their members. That is our job. So you will still be a major | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
part of the bankroll of the Labour campaign. You will still have 50% of | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
the votes at a Labour conference, and you will still have a major part | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
in the Labour National executive committee and the policy committee. | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
It is right to say the unions are still at the heart of Labour, are | :09:05. | :09:14. | |
they not? Well, if you sick to break the affiliated link between trade | :09:15. | :09:16. | |
unions and the Labour Party, the whole thing collapses. That is what | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
anchors the Labour Party as far as we are concerned. Many of our | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
members think that when they want to look for ferrochrome and rights, | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
social justice, housing and the health service, Labour are better it | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
quipped to deliver that for working people than the current parties. | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
That is why we have traditionally supported them. But not at all of | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
our members support Labour, which is why we don't affiliate all of them | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
to Labour. There are over 30 million people in the British labour force | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
now. Union membership is only 6.5 million out of that 30. A 6.5% of | :09:53. | :10:03. | |
that do not vote Labour, they vote Tory or liberal or nationalist in | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
Scotland. So you are a relatively small pressure group. Why should | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
Labour be in thrall to you? We are the biggest voluntary organisation | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
in this country. Sorry about that, but that is the fact. People make | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
conscious choices. My own union, the GMB, has been growing for eight | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
years. So this dying picture you are trying to paint... In terms of | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
accounting for the fact that some do not support Labour, that is why | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
unions do not affiliate all of their members to the Labour Party. We have | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
adjusted to that. If you don't like being called Neil, I don't like | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
being called a barren either. What about Mr Baron? I don't like that | :10:52. | :10:59. | |
either. We are representatives of working organisations. It may be | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
inconvenient for politicians to have to listen to working people, but we | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
will continue to press. Lord Baron, thank you very much. | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed Miliband? Not really, but to his | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
credit, he is going ahead with this. There was a point at which it looked | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
as though Ed Miliband would back away from reform. To his credit, he | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
is trying to create a mass membership party again. But when it | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
comes to the crucial business of funding a general election campaign, | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
these reforms will make Labour more reliant on large donations from | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
trade unions. They could have more power now, because they get to hold | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
back this money, whereas beforehand, they had to hand it over | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
automatically. As Mr Kenny just said, how much they handover will be | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
dependent on good behaviour. Yes, but these are pragmatic reforms. The | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of capital in not being seen as a | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
Blairite has helped him get these through . The response has been | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
muted, which suggests good party management on his behalf. That may | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
be because they will still have 50% of the votes at a party conference. | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
Mr Kenny was clear that that could be deal-breaker if they tried to | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
take that away. They have more places at the NEC than anyone else, | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
and party members, if only 10% of them signed up, they will outweigh | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
individual members in the constituencies. It was interesting, | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was taking thousands of pounds from the | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
Labour Party a few months ago because he was annoyed about these | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
reforms, and now he is relaxed because they still have 50% of the | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
vote at Labour Party conference and Labour Party Parliamentary | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
candidates are still selected in the same way. But there is a simple | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
point here. Yes, you can pick apart what Ed Miliband said and said the | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
unions have too much influence, but the only way he could have gone all | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
the way was to break the link with the trade unions, and he was not | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
going to do that. It was not the Labour Party that founded the | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
unions, it was the unions that founded the Labour Party. Even Tony | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
Blair did not break the link. In that context, Ed Miliband has gone | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
incredibly far. For the last 50 years, this opting into the union, | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
you have to turn to page 50 of your union terms and conditions to say, | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
do you want to opt out of the political levy 's that is going to | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
go, which will mean that when the next Labour leader is elected from | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
the union votes, they will get their ballot from the Labour Party and you | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
will append the fast where ballots went out from Unison macro and GMB | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
with a picture of Ed Miliband on the front of the ballot paper saying, | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
vote for aid. They were Stasi and Saddam Hussein ways of trade union | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
members electing the Labour leader, which will go. I am sorry his | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
Lordship is not still here to answer that question. | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
HMS Coalition is not a happy ship. The lovey-dovey days in the rose | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
garden are long gone. It is not a loveless marriage, perhaps even an | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
open one. The latest split is over the decision by Education Secretary | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
Michael Gove to replace Labour peer Sally Morgan as head of the schools | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
to be spitting blood about her removal, although only through | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
surrogates. He has not said a word on the record. Here was the | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Education Secretary a little earlier. If there is another | :14:36. | :14:47. | |
opportunity for Sally to serve in a different role at a different time, | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
then I would be delighted to support her in the role which she thinks it | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
is appropriate to do. There is nothing wrong with Sally but there | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
is a principle across government that there should be no automatic | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
reappointment, and that after three or four years, it is appropriate to | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That is good corporate practice in order | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
to ensure that you refresh boards, bring a new perspective, and have | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
tough questions asked. We're joined now by the newly elected deputy | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
leader of the Liberal Democrats, Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen. | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Laws is said to be furious | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
with Michael Gove, is he? I think he is because Sally Morgan has been | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
doing a good job and that has been generally agreed across the whole | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
spectrum. I think Ofsted is an impartial body that inspects all | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
schools and it shouldn't be subject to some kind of political direction. | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
That is the concern, that she is being removed when she was doing a | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
good job and most people thought she should be reappointed. It is | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
strongly rumoured her successor will be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why | :16:02. | :16:15. | |
hasn't David Laws said this himself, have you spoken to him? I have, and | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
I know he is not very pleased about it but he will want to speak to | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
Michael Gove himself when he gets to see him on Monday. The question you | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
have to take on board is that David Laws is the schools minister, | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
effectively the one who has engagement with Ofsted, and he is | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
seeing it being undermined by the Secretary of State. There is a | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
question that if Michael Gove is so pleased with Sally Morgan why is he | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
replacing her, and who will he be replacing her with, and on what | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
basis? Maybe parliament should have a confirmation hearing so that we | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
can be assured that whoever is put in charge is there because they are | :16:59. | :17:07. | |
good at it. Why has he licensed his surrogates to save this rather than | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
saying it himself? He didn't, he knew I was on the programme this | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
morning so I am giving you the answers as best I can. David is | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He hasn't so far. You asked | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
me to come on this programme and David was anxious for me to know he | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
wasn't happy about it, and I can certainly tell you that. I can also | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
give you my own opinion which is that Ofsted is not the Department | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
for Education, it is an independent body. The question you have to ask | :17:44. | :17:51. | |
is will Michael Gove but someone in charge of Ofsted who will have a | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
political agenda? If so, that is not what Ofsted should be used for. | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
Let's move on to your own position. You are 69, white male, | :18:03. | :18:14. | |
middle-class, what is your answer to the party with diversity problems? I | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
don't think that is what they voted on. They felt I had a wealth of | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
experience that would be vulnerable to the party from the period now | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
until the election, not least because the central issues that will | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
concern voters are the economy, and I have a track record of promoting | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
the party's economic policy over many years. But you are not even | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
standing at the next election. No, but we need to get to the next | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
election and my colleagues have confidence that I can do a useful | :18:49. | :19:00. | |
job for the party in that situation. We have developed and delivered | :19:01. | :19:02. | |
policies that I have helped to shape and I want to persuade people to | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
understand the Liberal Democrats have made a fundamental difference | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
to the economic recovery. But you know what has been happening with | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
the Liberal Democrats and their problems with women. Wasn't this a | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
chance to select a woman in a major part? You only have seven female MPs | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
out of 57, not a single Lib Dem woman in the Parliament. Again, why | :19:24. | :19:32. | |
you rather than making a break and bringing someone in onto major | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
positions? My colleagues have concluded that the role I am best | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
qualified to do it, that is why they voted for me. We do only have seven | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
women and that is an issue we need to address. Two of those women are | :19:50. | :20:01. | |
ministers, one is a government whip. We seem to have lost our line to | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was in full flight defending his | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
position. I'm not sure if we can get the line back, just bear with me for | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
a few seconds to see if we can get it. It looks as if we have lost | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
we were not able to continue that interview. | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
Fierce winds, torrential rain and a tidal surge have brought more misery | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
to thousands. Official records show that southern England has seen the | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
wettest January since records began in 1767. I remember it well. The | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
Somerset Levels have been hit by weeks of flooding, with little | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
respite from relentless rain. And, the residents of one village on the | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off for almost a month. We sent our Adam | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
out with his wellies and a properly filled out risk assessment form. The | :20:59. | :21:17. | |
very wet road to Muchelney. This village of about 100 residents has | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
been cut off for about four weeks, and like the weather vane, it feels | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
a little bit spooky. It came up to here and your front door was there. | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
Anita is just relieved the water stopped here, practically on her | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
doorstep. Now it is the practicalities that are the problem. | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
Driving around for food is quite a hassle. You are foraging. It's not | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
as bad as that but we do have a few bits in the vegetable garden still, | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
and we had some nice apples until the rats ate them but we are not | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
doing too badly on that score. It sounds like the medieval! That's | :22:02. | :22:11. | |
what it feels like. Talking of retro, who knew Somerset still had a | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
Coleman, this is Brian's first delivery since Christmas. Everything | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
has gone old-fashioned. We are now talking to neighbours we might never | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
have seen before or spoken to so we are getting to know more people in | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
the village. She's right, there has been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit, | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
quite literally. The council and the Fire Brigade have put on this boat | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
service to get people to work and school. The church has become an | :22:47. | :22:55. | |
unofficial flood HQ. This is where people pick up their mail, and this | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
is where the people who run the boat stopped for their tea breaks. It all | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
seems quite jolly, if a bit boring, but it is no fun for the homes and | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
businesses that have been inundated, or for the farmers whose land is | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
underwater, an area the size of Bristol, or for the villages which | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
are less isolated but where the flooding is worse. People like the | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
parish chairman are starting to get angry with how the Government has | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
responded. It was all a bit late. We knew what was going to happen with | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
the amount of rain on the fields and the Government was so slow to | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
react. The county council got the boat going quickly but it was | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
another four weeks nearly before the button was pressed for the major | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
incident. Right on cue, the cavalry arrived in the shape of emergency | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
crews from other parts of the UK. The rumour is that they will bring | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
in a hovercraft but the bad news is that the weather is becoming more | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
grim this weekend. There has been a surge in bookings at the campsite | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
where people have seen the Somerset Levels on holiday and would like to | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
come on holiday, if it ever stops raining. I'm delighted to say we | :24:17. | :24:24. | |
have got the line back to Aberdeen, somebody has put a shilling in the | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
meter. We can go back to Malcolm Bruce. We were talking about the Lib | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
Dem women and your election, I suppose the point some people are | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
making is that your party has as many knights in Parliament as it has | :24:41. | :24:48. | |
women and you are one of them. The good news is that for the five MPs | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
who are standing down, who have had candidates elected in their | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
constituencies so far, all five candidates that have been selected | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
are women. We need to fight hard to get behind those women and get them | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
elected so that we have a much better balanced parliament in the | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
future, but given that we have few women, you really have to pick | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
people appropriate for the job and we have appointed the women as I | :25:17. | :25:34. | |
have said but we need our image to be balanced. How many women | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
candidates will there be come the next election? At the moment, 12, | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
five more than we have now, and we haven't finished selection. Where | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
there are men sitting and standing again, that is not likely to change, | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
but where they are standing down we are overwhelmingly choosing women, | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
and in my view good and very able women. What I would want to say to | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
people is that if you want to see the Lib Dems have more women, go to | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
those seats and help us hold them. We are told that only 20% of the 57 | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
seats have female candidates and in the unlikely event that you were | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
able to hold onto them all, it still wouldn't be a sea change to have | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
20%. The point is you have to build them up. We are supporting female | :26:35. | :26:41. | |
candidates. These are really good candidates who will make first-class | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
MPs and I certainly believe you will gradually see the Liberal Democrats | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
taking them on. We don't have 300 seats that we currently hold like | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
other parties, but what I can tell you is that increasing -- | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
increasingly we will have female candidates. One newspaper has said | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
that you will deal with the Chris Rennard fallout quickly and | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
privately, what does that mean? It means I will not be telling you | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
because these things are not helped by comments on the airwaves. I hope | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
it will be possible to have a resolution without people going to | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
court but I don't think it helps anybody for me to comment on any | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
aspect of how this will be done and I'm not prepared to do so. If you | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
are not in full possession of the facts, why did you say you will deal | :27:36. | :27:44. | |
with this privately? I have come into this halfway through, I don't | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
have full possession of the facts, I doubt you do, and we have a process | :27:49. | :27:56. | |
that needs to be followed through. Any comments in public do not help. | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order to hear from a party that is | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
constantly calling for transparency in other institutions but when it | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
comes to your own, you say, I am not going to talk about it. There are | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
all sorts of disputes that happen in the world and often people don't | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
talk about them because talking about them aggravates the | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
situation. I believe you have to deal with them privately and I don't | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
think trial by media in this context is helpful and I don't believe that | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
those who choose to make those comments are making it easier to | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
solve them. There are problems in other walks of life and the Liberal | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
Democrats are not the only ones with these problems. We are trying to | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
change that culture and I think we will do it effectively in our own | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
way. We have a pastoral care officer now and I think that is the right | :28:54. | :29:04. | |
way to do it. Thank you for that. Let's now go back to the story of | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
the flooding in Somerset. We are joined by the leader of the Green | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank. Natalie Bennett, don't the Green | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
party bears some responsibility for these floods? You have sided with | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
the Environment Agency in the decision not to dredge rivers and | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
that is one of the reason why these places have been flooded. Firstly I | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
want to give my sympathy to everyone dealing with these floods. The | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
homeowners, the farmers seeing sodden fields for weeks and weeks. | :29:47. | :29:54. | |
We get that, we all have huge sympathy, particularly because so | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
little seems to be done to help them. What is the answer to my | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
question? I think there is strong evidence that dredging is not the | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
answer. If you think about the flow of the river, where the pinch points | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
are is things like bridges, weirs and towns. If you dredge the river | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
in between those barriers, you just make the water faster to those | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
points. The experts are saying that dredging is not the answer, it may | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
be in particular cases, but you have to look at each river system on its | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
own merits and very often the best way of dealing with this is working | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
out ways to slow the watered down and make sure that people don't | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
suffer unduly while you are doing that. The west of England | :30:41. | :30:49. | |
agricultural Society, which I would venture knows more about the | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
Somerset Levels than either of us, has said that without dredging, this | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
was a disaster waiting to happen. The local drainage boards have been | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
calling for years for dredging to be resumed. The National Farmers' Union | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
has called for it, and the chairman of the West Sussex flood defences | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
has called for more drainage, and he is a drainage engineer by | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
profession. So I don't know where your experts are, but the experts on | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
the ground am not the urban ones in London, seem to think this has not | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
been caused, but made worse by the failure of the Environment Agency to | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
continue to dredge. If you look at the example of the planning and | :31:30. | :31:31. | |
climate change coalition, which is led by the town and country planning | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
Association, who you would not describe as a group of radical | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
greens, these people have said we have to look at how we deal with | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
flooding in the future. But not in Somerset. These are the people | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
currently being flooded, not somebody sitting in a quango office | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
in London. They have asked for this to happen and it hasn't, and they | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
are now flooded in definitely. We have to look at what is happening on | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
a case-by-case basis. If you look at Germany, there are many cases there | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
were, to deal with flooding, many farmers are paid to hold water on | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
their land. Maybe we need to introduce those systems, because we | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
have to protect farmland, but we also have to protect urban areas for | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
safety. We saw a horrible flood in Wales were lines were endangered -- | :32:21. | :32:28. | |
where lives were endangered. That is the priority, to protect lives, | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
property and farmland. Lives are endangered at the moment, | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
particularly as this stagnant water turns toxic. And yet we are in a | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
situation, again encouraged by the Greens and the lobbying Environment | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
Agency, it says it does not want to dredge because dredging is | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
expensive, yet it spends millions on a bird sanctuary. That is getting | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
everything totally wrong. The government is getting everything one | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
by cutting on flood defences. It has not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
don't know the details of that. But looking at the broader issue, we | :33:07. | :33:14. | |
have to prepare for climate change. The government has slashed funding | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
to the Environment Agency and has cut back on the number of staff | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
available to deal with it and has removed the requirement on local | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
councils to plan for climate change. These are all gambling the future of | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
our lives and property and the future of our environment. Hasn't | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
the high watermark of greenery now gone well past? You don't come out | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
of the Somerset Levels with any great reputation. The UK government | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
is now going to start fracking as quickly as it can. Brussels is | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
loosening the CO2 obligations for 2030. The President of America is | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
about to give the go-ahead to the keystone pipeline, a totemic issue | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
for American greens, and your party is in a state of civil war in | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
Brighton. It is over, isn't it? Absolutely not. We are seeing large | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
amounts of extreme weather around the world. Any one event is whether, | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
but we are seeing a lot of it and people are recognising that climate | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
change is happening. If we are going to quote international experts, I | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, not known as a | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
radical green, and he said after the IPCC report came out that the heat | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
is on and we must act. If you go to Christine Lagarde, head of the | :34:33. | :34:34. | |
International Monetary Fund, again not a radical green, she was asked | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
what kept her awake at night, and she said, we are not doing enough | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
about climate change. So actually, people around the world are looking | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
at what is happening around them are both people on the ground and people | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
in high positions are saying we have to act on climate change. And in the | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
case of Britain, that should absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
to interrupt, but I have evidence that you are planning a little | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
career change. Don't go away. This is what happens when you let Nigel | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
Farage present the weather. One thing leads to another and low and | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
behold, the Sunday Politics now has a new traffic and travel reporter. | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
Let's go back to Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew. It | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
is easy out that, so let's start with our airports. I am pleased to | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
say that Heathrow's third runway, Boris Island and all short-haul | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
flights are, just like our arguments, well grounded. We suggest | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
making or alternative arrangements, like a re-nationalised rail | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
network, although it would be a glaring omission if we did not admit | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
that that plan is currently being delayed by Labour Party foot | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
dragging. Speaking of trains, we are hearing that high-speed two may well | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
be derailing, or at least getting bogged down in political fog. One | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to say he is completely lost. Thanks | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
for the update, Ed. You are not alone among political commuters. | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes are causing major tailbacks across | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
the South, apparently stretching all the way to Brussels. This does make | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs can, of course, just hop on their | :36:27. | :36:36. | |
gravy train. The tree had a roundabout is blocked after reports | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
of a political earthquake. It seems that a green unwound his beard to | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
block a dodgy gas extractor. A motorist who turned out to be the | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
environment minister object into the delay and was told to frack off as | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
furious badgers demanded that he stopped moving the goalposts. | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
Unregulated traffic in the city of London continues unchecked. | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
Pedestrians should try to block bankers with sacks of loot rushing | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
for the payments. But do beware the Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
the motorways. Although they are in a jam, or is it a fudge, we are | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
happy to make way for them, as, like all refugees, we say they are | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
welcome here in muesli green. That is the travel. Back to you, Andrew. | :37:28. | :37:35. | |
Natalie, I think you make my point. You are now preparing a new career | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
in traffic and travel. Well, I do believe in lifelong education and | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
that was an example of it. We know you have had a tough time today to | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
get to our studio. Thank you for the effort. | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
minutes, we will have We should be able to set those tolls | :37:59. | :42:24. | |
to benefit the Welsh economy. Many companies think the tolls are | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
adding an extra cost but the level of the charge will soon become a | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
political issue. As decision day approaches, the pressure will pile | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
up for a big cut in the travelling into and out of South Wales. | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
Tomos Livingstone reporting there. Joining me now for a wider | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
discussion about the economy, Labour MP Nia Griffith and Conservative | :42:44. | :42:56. | |
Alun Cairns. Alun Cairns, we had in that piece that the bridges are | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
operated by a private contractor but the tolls are due a cut? | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
The current regime goes back to 1992 when the law was passed and the | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
finance scheme was set up so the government haven't had the | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
opportunity to intervene until the concession ends, which is linked to | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
the kind of income that is generated. It is likely to be 2018 | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
because of the way the economy is picking up. Effectively, the | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
government haven't been able to do anything up until now but I would | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
say that where George Osborne has been able to intervene, he was able | :43:34. | :43:42. | |
to half the rate on the Humber Bridge because it was a direct loan | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
to the government. Can't he do that in Wales? The law | :43:49. | :43:56. | |
does not permit that at the moment. When it does happen I'm optimistic | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
that there will be some sort of scheme that will be friendly to | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
Wales and to the motorist. Nia Griffith, we heard does it matter | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
who controls it? Do you have a view? The important thing is that when the | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
many is paid back for the construction, they do come down. | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
Whether or not it is collected by the Welsh government or the UK | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
Government, I do know Carwyn Jones will be looking carefully at the | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
small print and saying that if this is devolved Wales, is going to be a | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
cut in the block grant, if that cut was satisfied, then quite clearly | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
you'd be in a difficult situation in Wales because it be having to charge | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
the maximum in order to stand still. If on the other hand are more | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
amenable can be reached with the UK Government than the opportunity is | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
there. It is easy for Plaid Cymru to call | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
for a flat rate but they need to say where the money is coming from. We | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
need to be practical. There's a good model in place on the Humber Bridge | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
and that is financed from the Treasury. I'm optimistic we can | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
deliver that in Wales. Let's move on to the economy. Real wages have been | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
dropping since 2010. The longest period of four since 1964, according | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
to the office for National statistics. | :45:21. | :45:22. | |
Alun Cairns, are people in your constituency feeling any richer? | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
They recognise that the long-term economic plan is working. | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
Not of their wages are falling. Certainly, because the recession was | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
the biggest in the century almost. Therefore, there needed to be a | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
long-term plan to put it right. If there is a significant structural | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
budget, when the economy when South, then obviously it was going | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
to take time to turn it around from the mess that was inherited. | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
Longer than expected. We have to take into account what happens, well | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
it was deeper than we predicted and you have to take into account the | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
financial crisis is that took place in Europe. Let's look positively. | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
The long-term economic plan is working farms to the hard work of | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
families and businesses across the whole of the UK. Wilson is working | :46:16. | :46:22. | |
-- going at a faster rate than the rest of England. We have to reflect | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
on that but there is still a long way to go. | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
Nia Griffith, good news. The office for National statistics says that | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
GDP is growing by 1.9 at a moment. Alun Cairns is right, the economy is | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
on the right track. People have no confidence whatsoever. They were | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
told it is going to be growing at seven or 8%. | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
It's about 3%. They can see that actual debt is going to be 198 | :46:53. | :47:00. | |
pounds billion pounds more. People are losing confidence. They can see | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
what's happened, in the three years that the Conservative government has | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
been in, they have not made the progress they promised. I think | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
we're seeing a very, very fragile recovery. People still don't have a | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
huge amount of confidence and they're being kept very, very hard | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
because of this drop in wages which is hitting them badly. | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
It's a fragile recovery. Vince Cable has said the same. The long-term | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
economic plan is working. Ed Balls called for plan B. There | :47:34. | :47:46. | |
was a production of a double dip protest taking longer because the | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
depth of the recession was deeper. We had the biggest deficit of any of | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
the most developed economies in the world. It takes time to time around | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
but even the Institute of chartered accountants came at a fantastic | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
predictions on the top of the productions from the IFA and for so | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
many others. I remember some of the phrases from the Conservatives, | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
talking about a balanced economy across the UK. | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
That isn't happening, is it? If you look at last year, every | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
sector of the economy grew. It's the first year in decades that every | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
sector will have grown. That services, manufacturing. We sadly so | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
even retaining the curfews of the Labour government, manufacturing | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
went into decline. Fools suffered most. Every sector grew last year. | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
-- Wales. Labour still has a lot of influence | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
over the Welsh government. As it failed to ease that influence? We | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
know our wealth ranking such as it failed to ease that influence? We | :48:57. | :48:58. | |
know our wealth ranking search visitors, gross value added, Wales | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
is still bottom of the nations and reasons. -- regions. Some of the | :49:03. | :49:11. | |
jobs growth Wales programme. The target of 4000 per year, then | :49:12. | :49:20. | |
people finding people real jobs. Plus a rise in the number of | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
apprentices and the sharpest fall of any part of the UK in the number of | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
young people who are without any form of employment. So yes, the | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
Welsh government is trying hard, but there are macroeconomic factors | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
controlled by the UK Government which make it difficult. When the | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
real issues is sadly, the government has chosen to settle money out of | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
the Welsh economy by hitting low income and middle income people the | :49:49. | :49:56. | |
hardest. Labour hasn't -- has been in charge since 1997 and we are | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
rooted to the bottom. They have helped industry. They have | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
given grants to industry and helped people who have lost their jobs | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
through being made redundant and so forth. | :50:10. | :50:11. | |
All those programmes are very important. Without those would be a | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
lot worse off. Your party has committed to a 50p | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
top rate of income tax. Isn't that about winning back credibility in | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
politics than what is good for the economy? | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
It is about letting those with the broader shoulders take the biggest | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
burden. When you settle money out of the bottom of the economy, and as | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
tax credits Wales is losing money, when you take money from the least | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
well off, that has a knock-on effect immediately in towns and villages | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
because people haven't got the money to spend. What we should be doing is | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
making that tax burden a lot fairer and we should never have seen that | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
kept for those over ?150,000 PA. Completely unfair. Even this week on | :50:58. | :51:06. | |
Prime Minister's Questions, we had a Prime Minister unable to tell us | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
whether he would catch that further from 45, even to ?40. He will not do | :51:11. | :51:19. | |
that. It might sound popular but... Why don't you endorse it? Until | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
people look at the detail, it doesn't raise money. What is the | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
point of the tax rate that doesn't raise money? We want to raise the | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
personal allowance. It has gone down fantastically to ?10,000 and | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
beyond. Two thirds of the lowest paid, the tax has been removed. | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
Thank you both of you. Time for a look back at some of the political | :51:43. | :51:53. | |
stories of the week in 60 seconds. Schools inspectors said the quality | :51:54. | :52:00. | |
of teaching needs to improve. Two thirds of secondary school require | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
follow-up visits. Opponents could hold it an indictment of Labour 's | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
record. A drug testing service to identify harmful chemicals in the | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
legal highs will save lives. Health Minister Mark Drakeford said samples | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
can be sent anonymously to a laboratory. The Conservatives say it | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
is open to abuse by drug dealers. Income tax powers on offer to the | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
assembly, Tory leader in Cardiff Bay told MPs he is not convinced by | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
plans to restrict those powers. Welsh Secretary David James said Mr | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
Davies was giving a personal view. Mr Davies said the Tory agenda | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
members back. The Sun pointed out a front-page story about schools | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
weren't applied to Wales. You don't need to speak Welsh to work out what | :52:51. | :53:00. | |
the paper thought. Smoking and young people has also | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
been in the news. The UK Government said it would ban the sale of | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
e-cigarettes to underage teens and UK ministers also came under | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
pressure to ban smoking in cars when children were on board. The Welsh | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
government says it supports the ban on e-cigarettes and next month sees | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
the end of his campaign on raising awareness about the dangers of | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
smoking in cars. Speaking at First Minister's Questions recently, | :53:26. | :53:27. | |
Carwyn Jones said research had been commissioned on the impact of | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
second-hand smoke and children in cars. He would consider legislation | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
of the voluntary approach hadn't worked. | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
Isn't it time to put children's rights to good health about | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
so-called personal freedoms and ban smoking in cars in which children | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
are passengers? That option is available to us. When that research | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
becomes available in the summer, we will say that if the voluntary | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
approach does not work, we will legislate? | :54:00. | :54:01. | |
Shouldn't you look at this once again? Most people would like this | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
ban in place. Of course, adults have a freedom to | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
do as they wish in their own cars but when there are children in the | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
cars, the children can't get out and make their own decisions. Then the | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
vast personal freedom to impose their smoking on children is not | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
something that I would support in a freedom that does not impinge on the | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
rights of others. That is what smoking in cars with children does. | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
I am joined in the studio by health Minister Mark Drakeford. What | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
punishment you think a parent should face if they spoke with a child in | :54:38. | :54:50. | |
the back seat? That isn't a sensible question, | :54:51. | :54:52. | |
certainly not the approach we are going to be taking in Wales. We've | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
had two years of a campaign of education and information. We will | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
continue to persuade people that are smoking with children in cars is bad | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
and teams that campaign of this regime to change the way people | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
behave. So you don't want to change the? I'm trying to get a sense of | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
how seriously take this issue. Our approach has been clear all the | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
way through. We begin with persuasion. We try and explain to | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
people with high smoking with children in cars is bad and we had | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
considerable success already. We have persuaded more people are | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
not to do that but we are in the middle of that campaign. We've got | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
information emerging from it. We've said all the way through that if we | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
don't succeed in doing it voluntarily, we will see what legit | :55:39. | :55:47. | |
Asian country. Legislation. The fee -- campaign has been running since | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
February 2012. Some findings have emerged, that 71% | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
of cars where they were chosen were smoke-free at the beginning of the | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
campaign. That has already gone up to 78% on the campaign isn't over. | :56:04. | :56:11. | |
But we need to drive it up to 90%. People in the same survey said they | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
believe cars with children in them should be smoke-free. What level | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
will use it before you decide whether to ban smoking in cars with | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
children on Bard bought -- wheel away to the evidence. | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
I will not pre-empt the evidence. We will look at primary children, | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
secondary school children, secondary schoolchildren, and test peoples | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
opinions. If left distillation is needed, we | :56:42. | :56:48. | |
will legislate in. -- legislation. The smoking lobby says it is a | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
serious invasion of privacy. What next, a ban on smoking at home when | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
children are present? What's you make of that? I entirely reject | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
that. Let's not forget... Children are exposed to second-hand | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
smoke at home as well. They are simply not compatible. In a car, you | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
are in a confined space. Concentrations of smoke... And when | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
you smoke, you are putting into the air a combination of substances that | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
cause cancer, that have arsenic, benzene, formaldehyde, cadmium, | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
every time you smoke, those things go into the air and children in a | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
car in a space they cannot get out of and with concentrations of smoke | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
rising over time. In a house, it is possible for people not to be in the | :57:41. | :57:50. | |
room where smoking is happening, the area is much more diffuse. | :57:51. | :57:52. | |
The situation was not comparable. So we have no plans to cut this? We're | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
talking about smoking cars, nothing else. When I'm going to make up your | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
mind on one a change and there is necessary? | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
The UK Government were defeated last week on a Labour amendment. There is | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
to be a vote in the House of Commons this week. | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
We'll see whether they -- there may be opportunities to change the way | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
ways. Wales has been overtaken. You have been campaigning for a long | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
time and now Westminster are pushing ahead with votes in parliament. | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
It was the Welsh evidence that was cited time and again in the house of | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
lawyers debate showing how Wales has been in the forefront. If there are | :58:31. | :58:37. | |
changes in Westminster, the Welsh government will not want children in | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
Wales to have any lower level of protection than is available to | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
children elsewhere in the UK. The charity ten of us would like to | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
see an outright ban on smoking. To agree? There is a different set of | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
arguments were out of arguments where adults are by themselves in a | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
car, doing no harm to anyone other than themselves. | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
At the moment, we're talking about children who are not in a position | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
to make decisions for themselves. Let me ask about e-cigarettes. He | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
see a lot of adverts are those in Cardiff. But you make of those | :59:13. | :59:14. | |
adverts? I am very anxious about | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
e-cigarettes. I hear the arguments that they can be a useful tool for | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
people who are already heavily addicted to smoking and a way of | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
helping them to reduce that addiction. | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
I don't dismiss those arguments. But I am far more worried that the | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
e-cigarettes movement is really normalising smoking and glamorising | :59:36. | :59:42. | |
smoking. It contains nicotine and that is highly addictive. We don't | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
want e-cigarettes to become a gateway to real cigarettes. | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
Should the restrictions on e-cigarettes be exactly the same as | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
the restrictions on tobacco? Next week I will try and persuade the | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
assembly to take powers to prevent the provision of e-cigarettes to | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
children aged under 18 and there are other things that we can do here in | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
Wales. We have a Public health White Paper | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
which we will publish in the next few weeks and that will contain | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
further proposals in this field. But this is a rapidly moving picture and | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
we need a wider debate with a wider public. | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
The evidence in a unclear on whether they are harmful not, so you're not | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
ruling it out, that they should be in the same bracket as tobacco and | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
is subject to the same rules? There is a very powerful case for being | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
exactly that. In New Zealand, you could only buy a e-cigarettes at a | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
pharmacy because they regard them as to be governed as a medicine. | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
There are things we can do in Wales and we want to explore as a public. | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
But as this is such a new area and the evidence is unclear, we don't | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
want to throw the baby out with the bath water and prevent their use | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
when they can be useful. We have to leave | :01:01. | :01:01. | |
when they can be useful. We have to Not a complete denial! Hopefully a | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
Conservative mayor again. Not a good week for David Cameron on | :01:06. | :01:17. | |
the tricky European front last week. President Hollande said he was not | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
interested in major treaty reform for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
hopes to hold his in-out referendum. And the private member's bill to put | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
that referendum on the statute bill was killed by Labour and Lib Dem | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
peers in the Lords. James Wharton was the Tory MP behind the bill, and | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
he joins me now. What happens now? It is out of my hands what happens | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
now, because Labour and the Liberal Democrats conspired in the Lords to | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
kill off my bill. One of the options is for another private member to | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
bring a bill forward when they have the next private member's bill at, | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
and we can try again. The prime minister has indicated that he will | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
support that. But whatever happens, it will be in the Conservative | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
manifesto at the next election. Do you accept that cost this is Tory | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
policy and not government policy that the government policy elite | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
macro cannot bring forward a bill? That is the problem. The Liberal | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
Democrats, despite having promised a referendum in their manifesto at the | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
last election, now will not allow government time for a bill to | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
enshrine that in law. That was why I brought it forward as a private | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
member's bill. David Cameron and the Conservative Party through | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
everything behind that. To many people's surprise, we got it through | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
all the House of Commons stages. Sadly, to their discredit, Labour | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
and Liberal Democrat peers, doing the bidding of their masters in the | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do you accept that it is Conservative | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
policy, but not government policy, that you could not use the | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
Parliament act to get this through the Lords? That is not the case. The | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
Parliament act is clear that if a public bill passes through the House | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
of Commons twice in one Parliamentary period, there is a | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
certain amount of time that has to be between both bills being | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
presented. There are some procedural steps to be overcome, but there is | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
no legal reason why the Parliament act could not come into effect. I | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
was talking about you not having a majority in this case. That remains | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
to be seen. We saw previously that Labour and the Liberal Democrats | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
sent enough people to frustrate its progress to make it as difficult as | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
possible, but not huge numbers to vote against it. On a Friday, huge | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
numbers of MPs do not attend normally. Getting that number might | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
prove difficult. The Parliament act, which is a bit of an atomic bomb in | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
constitutional terms, if that was used, they would turn up to vote | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
against you. Is it not the case that after the countryside Alliance tried | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
to involve the courts in the hunting ban that it was made clear that the | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
Parliament act was not to be used for constitutional issues? I don't | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
think we know how many would turn up and we don't know how they would | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
vote. One of the things that has been revealed as I have gone through | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
the process of getting this bill to get a referendum through the Commons | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
is that there are big splits in the Labour Party. One of the reasons we | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
did not see them turning up in large numbers to stop this bill from | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
happening was that Ed Miliband knew that if he tried to lead his own MPs | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
through the lobbies to block a bill, the only purpose of which is | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
to let Britain decides to give people a say on membership of the | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
union, a lot of his MPs may not have followed him. It is all fantasy | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
politics anyway. The French president has made clear that he has | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
no interest in treaty change this side of 2017. He would need a | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
referendum as well . And he needs that like a hole and had. Merkel is | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
not keen, as she is in coalition with the social Democrats. Without | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
the French or the Germans, it will not happen, end of story. The policy | :05:07. | :05:14. | |
is that we will try to negotiate on getting a better deal. I hear what | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
you are saying, but I don't recognise it as reality. We have a | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
strong bargaining position. But whatever the result of that | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
negotiation, it will be put in an in-out vote to the Britain people. | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
It is time people were allowed to decide. It has been over a | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
generation since we last had a say. David Cameron has committed to | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
delivering that referendum. The Conservative Party will have it in | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
our next manifesto for the election. Whatever happens to my bill or any | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
other of the bill that comes forward. If people want a | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
referendum, the only party that can deliver that in British politics is | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
the Conservatives. Let me bring the panel in. Nick, where is this going? | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
It is clear to me and anyone who follows European politics that there | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
is no appetite for major treaty change in the short run, | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
particularly for the kind of major changes that Vista Cameron says he | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
is going to get, and yet the Tories are talking about Europe again when | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
they should be talking about the economy. And Francois Hollande is | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
looking at 2017, the year we are meant to have this referendum. There | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
will be a French presidential election going on, and Nicolas | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
Sarkozy will be back in play by then. But James has an interesting | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
point, which is that it is down to Angela Merkel. She would be more | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
receptive to David Cameron's ideas of reform than people assume. She | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
has looked over the edge at a Europe without the UK and said, that is not | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
acceptable, and I am willing to pay a price, not any price, but a price | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
to keep the UK in the European Union. And the French, because the | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
UK and France are the only serious military powers in Europe, will | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
eventually come to that position. So there is more support for David | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
Cameron than people assume. The French are also not a strong | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
position in terms of the euro and French economy. The Foreign Office | :07:11. | :07:19. | |
seem a bit more optimistic about it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd | :07:20. | :07:29. | |
once told me, we are winning the arguments on the single currency. Of | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
course anything from the Foreign Office comes with a health warning, | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
but if David Cameron had won a majority and was determined to | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
renegotiate, he is in a strong position with Merkel. There is a | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
possibility that the French could eventually be talked around. So it | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
is not entirely bleak on that front for Cameron. When do the Tory party | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
managers say, look, stop banging on about Europe again? The economy is | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
going away. We still have an electoral mountain to climb. Let's | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
just talk about that and not be divided. They should have done that | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
some time ago. It is already too late. The Tories need a seven point | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
lead in the polls to get image are tea. The way things are, that would | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
require a huge change from where we are now . It is very unlikely to | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
happen. So all this is happening in some bizarre imaginary space with | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
wonderful rainbows and sunshine. But we can detect the beginnings of a | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
shift in the last couple of weeks. If you talk to Tory backbenchers, | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
Douglas Carswell is now saying in public that it is time to stop the | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
fighting. If they are to get even close to winning the election, they | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
can't do it if they are all against each other. I don't think it is an | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
imaginary space. It is likely that David Cameron will have the largest | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
party in the election. If it is a hung parliament and it is the | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party, David Cameron | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
will save to Nick Clegg we gave you an AV referendum, I am having this | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
referendum. And it will be difficult for Nick to say no. Let me go back | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
to Mr Wharton. You are going to get a referendum in the manifesto. Other | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it. So why don't you just banked that | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
and get behind the leadership Institute causing endless problems | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
and coming across as a Europe accessed, divided party? I am | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
absolutely behind the leadership. David Cameron announced the policy I | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
am trying to bring forward in this bill. It is in line with the speech | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
he gave this time last year. But getting that commitment into law | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
will help to kick-start the negotiation process and mean | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
everyone will know where we stand. But whatever happens, the | :10:04. | :10:05. | |
Conservatives are committed to delivering a referendum. And to | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
address the point that we talk about Europe too much, that is not the | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
case. We have a good message on the economy, on tackling immigration and | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
reforming welfare. There is more to do, but this is also an important | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
part of policy. But at a time when the economic news seems to be | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
turning in your direction, you are talking about the European | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
referendum. Your backbench colleagues are trying to change the | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
Immigration Bill every which way. Dominic Rather is putting in an | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has been on this programme, putting in | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
amendments that are clearly illegal. How is that helpful? The fact is | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
that we are in a coalition, so there are areas of policy where | :10:55. | :10:56. | |
Conservatives might want to go further and we are not able to do | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
that. In other areas, we are delivering good reforms. But this is | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
not a matter of going further. The mill 's amendment was clearly a | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
contravention of the Treaty of Rome. That is where you get the headlines | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
from. Some of your colleagues have a death wish? Would they rather have a | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
Miliband government if the choice is an impure Cameron one instead? I | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
don't think anyone in their right mind would rather have a Miliband | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
government. Then why are they behaving that way? We have had some | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
disagreements into the leak and debate within the party, but it was | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
talked about on the panel just now. The Conservative Party is behind | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
David Cameron and focused on winning the next election. Europe is one | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
part of that. We have policies in a range of areas, but we are getting | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
back on the right track. Thank you for being patient with us. | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
Is this ghost story going to go somewhere? Mr Laws is talking | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
through surrogates at the moment, but there is a strategy by the Lib | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
Dems make these differential points now. I think it is fantastic | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
coalition sports and entertaining, but in terms of out there, it has | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
almost no traction whatsoever. I don't think any voters know who | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
Baroness Morgan is and it sounds like one but politicians shouting at | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
another bunch of politicians about their ability to give each other | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
jobs. There is a larger point about the way Michael Gove runs his | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
government. He is notoriously a very polite man surrounded by Rottweiler | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
is, his advisers. He has made enemies of a lot of people in the | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
media, and some of that will come back on him in the next 18 months. | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
We shall see if Mr Laws himself sticks his head above the parapet. | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
That is it for this week. The Daily Politics is on throughout the week | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
at midday on BBC Two, except on Wednesdays, when we are on at | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
11:30am. I will be back next week at the same time. Remember, if it is | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. This Bonnaire... The Spanish say | :13:09. | :13:36. | |
he has broken your treaty. That man will go on | :13:37. | :13:38. | |
to destroy thousands of lives and there's not a damn thing | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
we can do to stop him. | :13:44. | :13:47. |