Browse content similar to 16/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
extremely difficult, if not impossible, for an independent | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
Scotland to join the European Union, so says the President of the | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
development in the independence debate. It's our top story. He has | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
the power to bring travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
Later in the programme: These are Another | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
Later in the programme: These are taxing times for Labour and for the | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
Conservatives. We speak to one of the Tory Assembly | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
rebels. out his budget for next year. We | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
look at his decisions and priorities with the help of his chief of staff. | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
With me, the best and brightest political panel in the business. The | :01:34. | :01:42. | |
twits will be as incessant and probably as welcome as the recent | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
rain. A significant new development in the debate over Scottish | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
independence this morning, the President of the European | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
Commission, President Jose Manuel Barroso, has confirmed what the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Nationalists have long denied, that an independent Scotland would have | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
to reply to join the European Union as a new member, that it would | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
require the agreement of all 28 member states and that would be, in | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
his words, extremely difficult, if not impossible. In case there is a | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
new country, a new state coming out of a current member state, it will | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
have to apply and, this is very important, the application to the | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
union would have to be approved by all of the other member states. | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
Countries like Spain, with the secessionist issues they have? I | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
don't want to interfere in your democratic discussion here, but of | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
course, it will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
of the other member states, to have a new member coming in from one | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
member state. We have seen that that Spain has been opposing even the | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
recognition, for instance, so it is a similar state. It is a new | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
country. I believe it is great to be externally difficult, if not | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
impossible. Well, he says he doesn't want to interfere, but he has just | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
dropped a medium-sized explosive into the debate on Scottish | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
independence? A huge story. Alex Salmond must be wondering what is | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
going to go wrong next. His pitch to the Scottish people is based on two | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
things, the currency union with England and the rest of the United | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
Kingdom, which was blown apart last week, and this morning, his claims | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
that Scotland would automatically get into the European Union has been | :03:32. | :03:45. | |
dynamited. He's not only saying that they would have to apply, it is also | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
saying it might be impossible to get the agreement of all 28 members to | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
allow Scotland in. That's even more significant than the application? | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
The reference to Spain is interesting, we talk about Catalan | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
independence, an economic and active area that Spain does not want to be | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
independent. About five other countries are blocking Kosovo's | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
accession to the EU. There is no reason they would want to encourage | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
the secessionist in their country by letting Scotland do the same. If | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
Scotland does have to apply, and it does get in, it solves the currency | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
problem because all new members have to accept the Euro? At the moment, | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
the SNP are rejecting that quite strongly. What an interesting | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
intervention today. However, I know that those arguing that Scotland | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
should stay in the union are worried that the polls are tightening. A lot | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
of these interventions, parents care arguments, they don't look like they | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
are convincing the Scottish people. We haven't had any polls yet? We | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
haven't, but we have since the currency debate was reignited in the | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
last few weeks and it shows the polls tightening slightly. I think | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
Alistair Darling's campaign would prefer to be much further ahead at | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
the stage. They are worried that these technical commandments are not | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
having much sway. Are the polls tightening slightly? They could be | :05:16. | :05:17. | |
within the statistical margin for error. They are, but not much. Alex | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
Salmond's main page is one of reassurance. He wants to say you can | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
vote for independence, a pound in the pocket will be the same as | :05:30. | :05:31. | |
before and you will still be a member of the European Union. In the | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
last three or four matter days, both of those claims have been blown | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
apart. Angus MacNeil has already told BBC Radio 5 Live that the | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
remarks are nonsense and he is playing more politics. We hope to | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
speak to the SNP's finance minister, John Swinney, a little bit later in | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
the programme. It is not just the constant rain that London commuters | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
have had to deal with. There was also a strike on the tube that | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
disrupted the travel of millions. A second stoppage was on the cards, | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
but it was called off at the last minute. | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
The leader of the biggest underground workers union, the RMT, | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
is Bob Crow, who has led his members into 24 strikes on the tube since | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
2005, as well as disputes on the national rail network. Under his | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
leadership, the union's membership has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
more than 80,000, at a time when union membership overall has been | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
shrinking. The current dispute has seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
Johnson over the mayor's plans to close tube station ticket offices. | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
The 48-hour stoppage at the beginning of this month is estimated | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
to have cost the London economy ?100 million. The two sides have agreed a | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
truce, for now, but Mr Crow has threatened further action if the | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
mayor imposes his changes. Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You | :06:58. | :07:08. | |
have suspended the strike for the moment. What will it take to call it | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
off entirely? Want to know first of all wider booking office has to | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
close. The Mayor of London made it quite clear in his election | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
programme that the booking offices would remain open. It was strange, | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
really, because Ken Livingstone wanted to close them down and the | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
mayor thought it was popular to keep them open and put in his campaign to | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
keep them open. However, we have not the news figures. We are being told | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
only 3% of people use the booking offices. That's not true. In | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
research done, if somebody does to a booking office with somebody sitting | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
there and asks for a ticket of less than ?5, they are not allowed to | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
sell them a ticket, it is madness. Do you use the ticket office? When | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
it is open, yes. You said to ITV that he didn't. I don't know what I | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
said to ITV, I don't know what time people use them, sometimes they are | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
open and sometimes they are closed. People make out that these ticket | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
office staff are people that sit behind barriers like a newsagent. | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
I'm not knocking a newsagent, however, these people were the same | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
people treated like Lions when they were helping people named in the | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
terrorist incidents, taking them out of the panels. Suddenly they are | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
lazy people that sit in ticket offices. My understanding is that | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
the people would come from behind and be out and about now. It is the | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
management wants to run the underground without ticket offices, | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
isn't that their prerogative? They are paid to manage, not you, not | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
your members, they are the managers? Managers are there to manage, and we | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
want good managers. But we've got some really bad managers that are | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
not looking at the railway as a whole. This is a successful | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
industry, not an industry in decline, one of the most successful | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million people a day. All of the forecast is | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
or it will move to 3.6 million per day. The mayor wants to run services | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
on a Friday and Saturday night. We are not opposed to that. However, it | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
does not make sense that if more people are going to be using the | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
tube on Friday and Saturday, coming home at two o'clock three o'clock in | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
the morning, a lot of people drinking, a lot of people not | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
dragging, why take 1000 people of the network that come to the aid of | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
people that are looking to people? I want to show you this picture. This | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I think it is. I was trying to copy | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
you. You deserve this break because you have done a fantastic job for | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
your members. Yes, I don't see what that has got to do with it. Let's | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
get every editor of the daily newspapers and see where they go on | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
their holidays, I would like to know. What I choose to do... I'm not | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
attacking you for doing that... You've got a picture up there, I've | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
got to say, why don't they go and follow Boris Johnson when he was | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
away on holiday, when the riots were taking place in London, and he | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
refused to come back? Why don't they go and view the editors of | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
newspapers, where they go on holiday? Why do they look at you | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
when you go on holiday? They sometimes do, actually. The basic | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
pay of a tube driver will soon be ?52,000. Ticket office workers are | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
already earning over ?35,000. Never mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
or membership by your house for what you have done for them? When you | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
look at the papers this morning, I see that Wayne Rooney is going to | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
get a ?70 million deal over the next four deals. I see NHS doctors are | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot of people that do a lot of people | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
that, in my opinion, don't do anything for society. The top paid | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
people in this country should be doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
we live in a jungle. If you are not strong, the bosses will walk all | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
over you. The reason why we got good terms and conditions is because we | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
fought for them. The reality is, all of these three political parties, | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
liberals, Tories and Labour, they have all put no programme that to | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
defend working people. So we have to do it on our own. And that is why | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
you have done such a great job for your members and why union | :11:22. | :11:23. | |
membership has been rising, people want to be part of a successful | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
operation. But it has come at a cost for less well-paid workers, who | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
travel on the cheap? If everyone believes if London Underground tube | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
workers take a pay freeze they are going to redistribute the money to | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
the rest of the workers that work on the cheap... But the people that | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
travel on the tube, let's look at some of them, they are the ones that | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
suffer from your strike action. The starting salary of a cheap driver | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
now, ?48,000. The starting salary for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22,000 | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a teacher starting out. As your | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
members have spread, they have had to live through 24 strikes in 13 | :12:05. | :12:12. | |
years to push up your members wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The | :12:13. | :12:20. | |
have put a pay freeze on by conservatives and liberals. The | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
police constables, so have the teachers. We have had the ability to | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
go and fight. The reality is, at the end of the day, as I have said | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
before, no one is going to put up the cause for workers. Not one | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
single party in parliament are fighting the cause for workers. They | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
all support privatisation, they all support keeping the anti-trade union | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
laws, they all support illegal wars around the world. Unless they have a | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
fighting trade union, our members pay would be as low as some others. | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
You said we could not care less if we have 1 million strikes. But these | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
people, the lower paid people who travel on the tube, who need it as | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
an essential service, they care. Of course they care, I've said before | :13:06. | :13:07. | |
that I apologise to the troubling public for the dispute that took | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It two to tango. If the boy never | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
imposed terms and conditions on us against our will... But you've got | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
great terms and conditions! But it's a constant battle, they are trying | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
to change them. Drivers are having their pay going up to ?50,000. You | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
said they are making it worse, it is going up. They are trying to make | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
things worse for workers. You said at the start of the interview that | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
the tube strike cost ?100 million in two days. It means that when members | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
go to work for two days it is worth ?100 million. That demonstrates what | :13:49. | :13:50. | |
they are worth. Only a fighting trade union can defend workers out | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
there. Your members should enjoy what you have got for them, because | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
it's not going to last, is it? Technology will change the whole way | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
your business operates. As Karl Marx says, you said I was a mixture of | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and the Sopranos. I thought that was | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
quite funny... The Karl Marx part of it, the only thing that is constant | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
is change. We have been crying out for new technology. But for who? To | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
put people on the dole, so they can't do anything and do anything | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
for society, or technology so everybody benefits, lower fares, | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
better service and better terms and conditions for the workers. But you | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
have made Labour so expensive on the underground that management now has | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
a huge incentive to substitute technology for Labour. And that's | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
what it's going to do, it is closing the ticket offices and very soon, | :14:48. | :14:49. | |
starting in 2016, the driverless trains coming. What I am saying is | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
that your members should enjoy this because it's not going to last. | :14:56. | :15:06. | |
Driverless trains are not coming in, it is not safe. We have them in | :15:07. | :15:16. | |
Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it is not safe? These are new lines | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
that have been built so that when it breaks down, people can get out of | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
the tunnel. Would you want to be stuck on a summers day on the | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
Northern line? A pregnant woman who cannot get off the train? Absolute | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
panic that takes place, the reality is simple, it is a nonsense. It's | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
not going to happen because it is a Victorian network. On Docklands | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
railway for example it is driverless but when the train breaks down, it | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
is above ground on a very small section. All of these other cities | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
managed to have it. You remind me about Henry Ford in the 1930s when | :16:05. | :16:17. | |
he said, you see that robot over their, he cannot buy a car. All | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
sorts of new jobs are being created all the time in other areas. Come | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
back to the ticket offices, not many people use the ticket offices any | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
more, what is wrong with getting the stuff out of the ticket office on to | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
the concourses, meeting and greeting, helping disabled people | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
and tourists and making it a better service? They can do more on the | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
concourse than they can in the ticket office. Andrew, he took the | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
decision to close down every single ticket office. You cannot compare | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
for example Chesham with the likes of Heathrow. Are you telling me | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
people are going to be on a long transatlantic flight, arrived at | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
Heathrow and cannot get a ticket. The stuff will be redeployed on the | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
concourse. The simple problem is that it is not just about the | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
booking office, it is about people having a visual. If you are | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
partially sighted, you cannot use the machines. If British is not your | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
first language, you cannot use the offices. How many languages do your | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
members speak? I don't know, I struggle with English. The machines | :17:46. | :17:55. | |
can speak many different languages. They are dehumanising things. You | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
phone the bank, all you hear is, press one for this, two for that. | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
People want to hear it human being and what makes the London | :18:08. | :18:09. | |
Underground so precious is that people want to see people. Having | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
well-dressed, motivated people out on the concourse, what part of that | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
don't you like? They will be on the concourse and they will have | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
machines. The fact is that London Underground did a risk assessment of | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
closing down their booking offices and it is clear that if you are | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
disabled, if you are partially sighted, London Underground becomes | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
more dangerous. You are posing the closing of ticket offices, opposing | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
driverless trains, when you opposed to the Oyster card when it came in? | :18:50. | :19:01. | |
No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal with it. It is not the only way. | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
They should supplement the staff and the job. If more people used the | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
London Underground system, you want more staff to deal with them. Let's | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
look at your mandate to strike. Of your members who work on the Tube, | :19:20. | :19:31. | |
only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30% voted for the strike, so 70% | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
actually didn't vote to strike of your members, but the strike went | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
ahead. Isn't it right to have a higher threshold before you can | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
cause this disruption? It would be lovely if everyone voted but the | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
Tories took that away. We used to have ballots at the workplace. What | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
I'm trying to say to you is that we used to have a ballot box at the | :19:59. | :20:06. | |
workplace and the turnouts were higher. The Tories believe that if | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
they can have a secret ballot where ballot papers went to people's home | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
addresses, where they could be persuaded by the bosses, votes would | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
be different. Let's go back to the workplace ballot because you get a | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
bigger turnout. Will the RMT re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
have no intention to. We got expelled from the Labour Party. But | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
you will give some money to the Labour councils? Those that support | :20:42. | :20:49. | |
our basic policies get money, we don't give money directly to MPs, we | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
give it to constituencies. Are you going to stand for re-election in | :20:57. | :21:05. | |
2016? I might do, I might not. You haven't decided yet? No, but more | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
than likely I will do. And will you stand again as an anti-EU candidate? | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
Yes, I am standing in London, and right across, completely different | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
to UKIP's policies. They are anti-European, they believe all of | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
the faults of Europe are down to the immigrants. We are anti-European | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
Union. If London Underground is as badly run as you think, why don't | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
you run for mayor? That is down the road, it has not come up yet. I'm | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
not ruling anything out. I'm not ruling out getting your job on the | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
Sunday Politics. You have got to retire as well, you have got to put | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
your feet up. I will get you to renegotiate my package. Shall we go | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
on strike first? If I could have your wages, I would have two trips | :22:07. | :22:20. | |
to Rio every year. Good luck. And if you're in the London region they'll | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
have more on the Tube strike later in the programme. Let's get back to | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
those comments from Jose Manuel Barroso, and reaction to these | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
comments from John Swinney. Scottish Nationalists denied all along you | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
would have to reapply, we have now heard it without any caveats, you | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
will and you might not get in. I think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
were preposterous this morning. He compared the situation to the one in | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
Kosovo. Britain is the member, Scotland is not the member. If you | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
go independent, you will have to reapply, he says. All of the | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
arrangements we have in place are compatible with the workings of the | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
European Union because we have been part of it for 40 years. The | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
propositions we put forward work about essentially negotiating the | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
continuity of Scotland's membership of the European Union and that | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
position has now been explained and debated and discussed and reinforced | :23:35. | :23:47. | |
by comments made by experts. We are talking about the president of the | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
European commission and we have spoken to him since he gave that | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
interview on the BBC this morning, it was an intervention that he made | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
that he wanted to lay out that Scotland should be in no doubt that | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
if they vote for independence they will have to apply for European | :24:08. | :24:15. | |
membership and they may not get it if it is vetoed by other members. | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
What he didn't say is that no state of the European Union have indicated | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
they would veto Scottish membership. The Spanish foreign | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
minister has. They have said that if there is an agreed process within | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
the UK that Scotland becomes an independent country, then Spain has | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
got nothing to say about the issue. That indicates to me clearly that | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
the Spanish government will have no stance to take on the Scottish | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
membership of the European Union because it is important that | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
Scotland is already part of the European Union, our laws are | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
compatible with the European Union and we play our part. The only | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
threat to Scotland's participation in the European Union is the | :25:03. | :25:12. | |
potential in/out referendum that David Cameron wants to have in 2017. | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
It has not been a great week for you, has it? Everything you seem to | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
want, the monetary union, that has been blown out of the water by the | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel Barroso has said you will have to | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
reapply to the European Union, it has not been a good week. You will | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
follow the debate closely, and the Sunday newspapers are full about the | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
backlash taking place within Scotland at the bullying remarks of | :25:48. | :25:54. | |
the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
now? He is making an indirect comparison between Scotland and | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
Kosovo. If you vote for independence and you do have two apply again to | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
join, if you do get in it solves your currency problem because you | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
will have to accept the euro. We have set out an option on the | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
currency arrangements which would be to establish the currency union. You | :26:23. | :26:32. | |
would have to adopt the euro. That's not rate because you have to be part | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
of the exchange-rate mechanism for two years before you can apply for | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
membership and an independent Scotland has no intention of signing | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
up to the exchange rate mechanism or the single currency. We are | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
concentrating on setting out our arguments for maintaining the pound | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
sterling, which is in the interests of Scotland and the UK. Thank you | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
for joining us this morning. This week's least surprising news | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
was that Labour won the safe seat of Wythenshawe and Sale East in a | :27:08. | :27:09. | |
by-election, following the death of the MP Paul Goggins. With the result | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
so predictable, all eyes were on whether this would be the sixth time | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
this parliament that UKIP would come second. And whether they'd chip away | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
at Labour's vote, not just the Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
up all night to find out what it all meant. Forget the hype. Forget the | :27:24. | :27:33. | |
theorising. And yes - everyone has a theory. UKIP are learning from us. | :27:34. | :27:45. | |
What have they picked up from you? To be silly. Thanks to this week's | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
by-election we've got some hard evidence in paper form that helps | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
answer the question: How are UKIP doing? Turns out the answer is well, | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
but not well enough to beat Labour. I'm therefore claim -- declare that | :28:01. | :28:10. | |
Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have come second and increased their | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
share of the vote quite significantly. But their performance | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
isn't as good as their performances in some of the other by-elections | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
this parliament. Just don't suggest to them that their bandwagon has | :28:19. | :28:27. | |
ground to a halt. A week ago you'd told me you were going to win, what | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
happened? No, I didn't, I said I wanted to win. My mistake. How are | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
you feeling? It is a Labour stronghold, we always knew it was | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
going to be a fight. Labour were running scared of letting us present | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
our arguments. UKIP's campaign in Wythenshawe didn't point to the | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
right but to the left, with leaflets that branded Labour as a party of | :28:57. | :28:58. | |
millionaires who didn't care about the working class. It wasn't a | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
winning strategy but it did help them beat the Tories who focused on | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
dog mess and potholes instead. Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
from Manchester Uni thinks they could be on the right track. He's | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP voters for a new book, which could | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
confound the received wisdom about the party. The common media image of | :29:20. | :29:31. | |
the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy faced golf club and -- member from | :29:32. | :29:40. | |
the south-east of the UK and many UKIP activists do resemble that | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
stereotype to some extent, they do pick up a lot of activists from the | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
Conservative party, but UKIP voters are older, more working class, more | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
likely to live in Northern, urban areas, and they are much more | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
anti-system than anti-EU. And they're precisely the voters that | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
the Tory MP David Mowat needs if he's to hold on to his narrow | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
majority in the constituency just down the road. Do you have a UKIP | :30:06. | :30:19. | |
strategy in your seat? Our UKIP strategy is to point out that if | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
they want a referendum on if they want to be in the EU or not, there | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
is one way to get it, for the Conservatives to form their next | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
government and for me to be their MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
what they want? I'm not sure it will be accidental. People need to | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
realise that if Ed Miliband is the Prime Minister, there will be no | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
referendum on the EU and UKIP may have made their point but they would | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
not have got their referendum. Over at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up | :30:53. | :31:01. | |
time. Not helping, Nigel? I had major surgery on the 19th of | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
November and I am still weak as a kitten. I can barely lift a pint | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
with my right hand, it is as serious as that. The answer is, Carreon, | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
chaps, you're all doing a very good job. There will be carrying on to | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
the European elections in May, which will provide more evidence of if the | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
UKIP and wagon is powering on or if it is just parked. -- bandwagon. | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
With me now is the Conservative MEP Vicky fraud and UKIP director of | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He will also be a candidate in the | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
upcoming European elections. You came second in Manchester, but it | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
was not a close second. -- Vicky Ford. There is nothing that is a | :31:41. | :31:47. | |
game changer? I think it is very unusual for any insurgent party, | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
like the liberals used to be, to actually win a safe seat of the | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
opposition. Those shocks, going back to Walkington etc, it tended to be | :31:59. | :32:06. | |
winning seats against an unpopular government. We did extraordinarily | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
well in Wythenshawe. Labour compressed the campaign down to the | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
shortest possible time and maxed out the postal vote. Whatever we think | :32:16. | :32:17. | |
about Labour, they do have an efficient machine, lots of union | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
activists signed a lot of people with a lot of know-how. It pushed | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
you into third place and showed the increasing irrelevance of the Tories | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
in the North? Tory minded voters in the North Sea more inclined to vote | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
for UKIP than you? I think by-elections are by-elections. The | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
same day, we took a seat from Labour in Birmingham. Well, that was a | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
by-election as well, so we should discount that as well. You should | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
learn from them, and we need to look forward to the elections in 2014. | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
That is in May this year, when we have a chance to really grab this | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
change in Europe, grab this change that we were talking about just now. | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
You don't worry, particularly in the north, if people want to vote | :33:08. | :33:09. | |
against Labour your supporters are drifting to UKIP? I think people | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
vote UKIP in a European election and they have done that for many years. | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
They vote that because they want change. The problem is, Patrick's | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
party have had MEPs since 1999 and they cannot deliver that change. | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
They can't because they don't have seats in Westminster. It was on that | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
video, the only way we are going to get the change we want in Europe is | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
to have that referendum and have the renegotiation, and that means vote | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
Tory. What do you say to that? Let's get real, the Conservative Party has | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
not won a Parliamentary majority in 22 years. But the only way you will | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
get a referendum, if that is what motivates you, and with UKIP it is, | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
the only way it will be a referendum on Europe in this country as if | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
there is a majority Conservative government at the next election. And | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
you could well stop that from happening? I don't accept that. I | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
believe, just as we forced David Cameron and into a referendum pledge | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
he explicitly ruled out making before through our success, and I | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
was there in PMQs, when his MPs asked him and he said it would not | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
be in the national interest because he didn't want to leave, our | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
electoral success forced that pledge. I believe by winning the | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
European action this May we can force Ed Miliband, again, against | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
his will, to match that pledge. Then, whatever formulation varies in | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
the next Parliament, we will get a referendum. Labour MPs have just had | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
the chance to say we want a referendum. They refused to do it. | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
The only way you are going to get a renegotiation, a change in our | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
relationship with Europe and an in or out referendum is to have a | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
Conservative Government. Please, UKIP, stop pretending that you can | :34:58. | :34:59. | |
deliver, because you don't deliver and you don't... We have delivered, | :35:00. | :35:07. | |
we forced David Cameron to give a pledge for a referendum he didn't | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
want to make. We will know if you are right about Ed Miliband or not, | :35:14. | :35:15. | |
you will have to tell us going into the campaign. If you are wrong, what | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
do you do then? There are still loads of reasons for people to vote | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
UKIP. A referendum is one thing. David Cameron, and I asked him | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
directly, thermally wants to stay in. He wants to be the Edward Heath | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
of the 21st century. The Tories are going to say, vote UKIP, get Ed | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
Miliband. What would you say to that? I would say we have probably | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
maxed out the Tory vote we are going to get because David Cameron has | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
been incredibly helpful in sending them in our direction. Our potential | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
for growth now, would we are concentrating on, his those | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
disenchanted former Labour voters and more and more of them are coming | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
towards us on things like immigration and law and order. We | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
want to renegotiate our relationship with Europe. We need to have people | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
who are going to turn up to negotiate with people like Barroso. | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
That meant a Prime Minister that is not Ed Miliband but David Cameron. | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
UKIP MEPs do not turn up to defenders. If President Hollande is | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
as good as his word and says there will be no substantial | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
renegotiation, certainly no treaty change this side of 2017 when he is | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
up for the election, what do you do then? He is a French Socialist Prime | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
Minister, I don't expect him to agree. But you can't bring anything | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
of substance back with these negotiations. Then people will vote | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
to leave. The Prime Minister has been very clear that British public | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
opinion is on a knife edge and unless we get what we want from a | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
renegotiation, we will leave. You would vote to leave? Let's see what | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
we get with the deal on the table in 2017. If the status quo was what we | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
have today, I would vote to leave. But I want to renegotiate. We will | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
have to move on. For those viewers lucky enough to live in the East of | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
England, they will be seeing more of Patrick in a moment. You are | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
watching Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
talking about, what else, the weather, | :37:36. | :37:45. | |
Hello, and on the Sunday Politics Wales: I speak to one of the | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
Conservative AMs sacked from the Shadow Cabinet in a row about tax | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
powers. And just what will Wales do with | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
those tax powers? We ask the Finance Minister. | :38:00. | :38:01. | |
And plans to centralise hospital services in south Wales. Labour MP | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
Chris Bryant says he's ready to fight. | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
Well, he was on this programme last Sunday talking about his spat with | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
the Welsh Secretary over tax powers. Andrew RT Davies, the assembly's | :38:16. | :38:17. | |
opposition leader, has certainly had a busy week since then. On | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
Wednesday, he sacked four shadow ministers who rebelled in a vote on | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
tax devolution. By Friday there were reports that he had lost the support | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
of senior Welsh Tories, but he was in a bullish mood this morning when | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
I asked him about the briefings against him. | :38:36. | :38:43. | |
I think it is highly regrettable that people are supposedly giving | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
briefings out if that is the case. But we are seeing a source as an | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
some of them have even been promoted to senior sources. What I know as a | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
fact is that the 14 Conservative members in the National Assembly are | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
committed to one thing and one thing only, and that is improving the | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
lives of the people of Wales. Some of the more bizarre and outlandish | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
remarks of being on probation and also being deselected, I can | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
categorically say that none of that was spoken about at the Welsh border | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
management conference call on Friday. You would understand that | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
colleagues have of you and want to express that view. The view is most | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
probably the same as mine. I am deeply disappointed we find | :39:26. | :39:27. | |
ourselves in this situation and I will work with colleagues in the | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
Assembly group and the wider party to make sure it is not party | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
differences we are talking about but comment, Welsh Government, failures | :39:37. | :39:44. | |
in Wales and the failure to deliver an economy that takes jobs and the | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
Health Service that looks after people as well as an education | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
system are tonnes of students for the 21st century. Those other | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
priorities. Within the management board and the party, you have the | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
backing to carry on as leader? Without a shadow of a doubt. | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
One of those rebels is the Conservative AM for Monmouth, Nick | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
Ramsay, who is here with me now. Welcome to the programme. You did | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
vote against the party's whip. Shouldn't you have expected to be | :40:15. | :40:15. | |
disciplined? Energy I voted for the position of the UK | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
Government, the position of David Cameron as the Prime Minister. This | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
was discussed in advance. There were many concerns by a number of my | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
colleagues about the position the group was proposing to take. We made | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
our views known and ultimately we were not going to vote against David | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
Cameron's UK Government policy. Headed the group get into this | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
position where you were being asked to vote against David Cameron's | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
policy? You might well ask and lessons need to be learned. It was | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
obvious this was going to cause us a problem and for anyone to say there | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
are not problems in the Conservative group at the moment, there clearly | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
are. We have to be upfront about those. They can be dealt with but we | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
have got to accept the Abbey. We have to move on from there. Those | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
problems were always going to develop. You cannot ask people to | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
vote against the principles. I could not fought for a Plaid Cymru | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
amendment that would go against my own UK party policy. Was sure | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
sacking and the other three dismissals and overreaction? It is a | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
matter for him in the Shadow Cabinet there are different ways to deal | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
with things. I have been loyal to Andrew for two and a half years | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
since he became leader. I did not resign from the Shadow Cabinet. He | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
decided my views were incompatible with his on this. You would have to | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
ask him whether it was an overreaction or not. It caused a lot | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
of surprise, and being in Brussels, on a train and finding that out was | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
a surprise. We need to look closely at the way the Welsh group operates. | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
You say there are problems of the group. What do you mean? There are | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
clearly problems if for members of the Shadow Cabinet are told they are | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
losing their jobs because they are backing the Conservative Party line. | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
Do you mean a lack of faith in Andrew RT Davies? Now, this is not | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
about his leadership. I have been loyal to him for the last couple of | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
years and I did not resign. I was put in his position as the other | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
members of the group were. This is about the members of my group being | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
able to support the UK Government policy and not being asked to | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
support a troublemaking Plaid Cymru amendment if they so wish. I'm sorry | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
Andrew has taken this course of action. Do you have any intention of | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
challenging him for the leadership? Run against him in 2011. No, it is | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
not about this. I have been loyal to Andrew but I am loyal to David | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
Cameron and the UK Conservative Party and the Conservative Party | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
family as a whole. I think we need to address these problems and Andrew | :43:06. | :43:07. | |
needs to think very carefully about how these issues can be addressed. | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
We cannot go on and pretend nothing has happened. It has. This can be | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
sorted out. There needs to be discussions about that. There is | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
talk of other Shadow Cabinet ministers potentially leaving the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
Shadow Cabinet. Is there any truth in that? I have no idea. You would | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
have to ask other members of the Shadow Cabinet. I know my position | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
and the position of those members who were sacked. There has been | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
discussion about this since then. It is a shame that was not more | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
discussion before that. As I say, we need to get to grips with this and | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
make sure members of my group are not put in this position in future. | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
What's next? How do you move forward? There was a rift created | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
when members of the Shadow Cabinet were sat on a point of principle | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
that they clearly had very little option to do something else. Andrew | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
needs to think very carefully about how we deal with this situation. I | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
am the chairman of the group. My daughter is open to work out how we | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
can sort this out. -- my door is open. We look to Andrew to see what | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
he proposes. You think his leadership has been weakened by love | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
this? -- all of this? It is very sad that this has happened but I think | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
it is salvageable. As I say, there is an issue here and it is a | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
problem. You cannot put members of the Welsh Conservative Party in a | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
position where they are asked to vote against something which is | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
overall Conservative policy. This has caused problems, it can be dealt | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
with and I'm sure it will be. Is Downing Street watching all of this? | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
I think Downing Street watch all aspects of the party across the | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
country. The Prime Minister will be aware of everything that is going | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
on. I am sure he is looking for us to sort it out. These sorts of | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
things do happen. All parties have differences and there are far bigger | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
differences in a Labour Party than there are my party about this. You | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
mentioned you're still the chairman of the Conservative group in the | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
Assembly. Your chair chairman of the committee. That is why you are in | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
Brussels. And you going to lose those two positions but you might | :45:24. | :45:33. | |
could there be more strife ahead? I think we should move on in unity and | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
make sure that these problems do not happen in the future. I am the | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
chairman of the Conservative group the expected to remain the chairman? | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
-- do you expect to remain the chairman? I stand up for those who | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
want to have a point of principle to support the UK Government policy. | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
That is non-devolved policy. All the members of Parliament in the | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
Conservative Party would agree that David Cameron has a right to bring | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
forward his proposals in the Draft Wales Bill concerning income tax. I | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
knew that those had to be supported. As the chairman of the group, Andrew | :46:13. | :46:20. | |
RT Davies says this. This is not me imposing a party diktats, this is a | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
decision by the group to vote in the way they did. How do you respond? | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
Andrew is a leader of the group that he'll provide should Egypt | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
direction, I am sure. -- strategic direction. Some members could not | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
support this and as a result accommodation should be made. Andrew | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
Cooper rid of action which was to dismiss Shadow Cabinet members. It | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
is for him to decide if that was appropriate. I keep coming back to | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
it and it is a very important point. You cannot ask people in the Welsh | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
Conservative group to have to choose between the Welsh Conservative group | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
and the party. My loyalty, it always has been. I am a loyal person to the | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
party and the Assembly as well. I understand the concerns of those | :47:13. | :47:14. | |
members who felt in an impossible position. Mister Davies was asked | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
how much of this was down to the relationship between him and David | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
Jones. We hear a lot of talk that they do not get along. You hear a | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
lot of talk about everything in politics. What truly matters is the | :47:28. | :47:35. | |
fundamentals here. David Jones Secretary of State responsible for | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
overall policy, non-devolved policy. Andrew has an important role as | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
well. The two of them should get on and I am sure they do. This is all | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
rumours that go around. I am sure the current problems we are | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
experiencing can be sorted out. Thank you very much. | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
Let's stay with tax. I've been speaking to the Finance Minister, | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
Jane Hutt, about what the Welsh Government will do once it gets | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
tax-raising powers. Don't assume that tax collecting | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
will simply switch from Whitehall to Wales. What is really happening is | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
that some taxes, including stamp duty, will be switched off by the UK | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
Treasury. The Welsh Government will switch them on again. When they do, | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
they might see things differently. Take stamp duty. The Conservatives | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
would scrap the tax on homes under ?250,000. The Welsh Treasury, being | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
treated in Cardiff, might go another route. What about a whole new set of | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
rates and a whole new way of collecting revenue? It used to be | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
looked at very closely and will get all the bands of stamp duty to have | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
a fairer system. What does the First Minister have in mind? I asked his | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
Finance Minister, Jane Hutt. It has been about powers for the purpose to | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
get these taxis devolved to Wales to make the model relevant. -- to make | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
them more relevant. I have set up a tax policy advisory group to look at | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
fairness and simplicity and supporting jobs and growth. | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
Articulate, if you look at stamp duty, land tax. People will want to | :49:18. | :49:25. | |
know if the Government will put up taxes or not. You want these powers, | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
when you going to come up with a policy? Very early days. We are | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
looking forward to having a draft bill for pre-consultation. We are | :49:38. | :49:46. | |
making all the preparations for legislation that will come through. | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
We hope that is before the next general election. The work we are | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
having to do now is to enable us to prepare to have these taxis devolved | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
to Wales but to have them with the tax policy which will sit Wales. If | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
you look at what is coming over, we're going to have stamp duty, land | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
tax and landfill tax. When those taxes are transferred to Wales, we | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
have the opportunity to have new policy and legislation, make | :50:15. | :50:23. | |
we have had consultation is not just with house-builders, but those who | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
see a great housing need and opportunity. It is too early to talk | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
about rates in terms of taxes. It is about the policies we can do, for | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
example, to get rid of a very crude slab of structure at the moment. Is | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
that something you're going to do so that when you pay stamp duty on a | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
new house, the amount you pay is graded instead of these cliffs in | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
the taxes? Is that what you will do? We're very interested in looking at | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
that. When we had consultation is last year, we had consultations with | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
house-builders and those in the housing sector about what we could | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
do if we got stamp duty and land tax devolved. They said we need to | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
reform it. This slab is very artificial because it means that, | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
you know, up to 175,000... The 1% cliffs which then goes up to 2%, 3% | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
and onwards at each slab, it does mean that what happens is that as a | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
bunching an end that sum of money once you have to pay the tax. It is | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
very artificial. It will take a very long time. There will be legislation | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
in Westminster and here. When do you predict that people will start | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
paying tax to the Welsh Government? Give me a date. Probably not until | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
2018. That might sound a long time ahead. Let's get the bill through | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
and let's get the legislation through. Let's get this new Wales | :52:00. | :52:07. | |
act in 2015 and then we can start. We got the election 2016. -- we have | :52:08. | :52:16. | |
got. We have got to collect this tax, manage this tax and be very | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
clear about what the policy will be. As I said at the starting point, | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
and this is what Silke said, this is about powers for purpose. It is | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
about enabling us to be responsible to make sure we have the right tax | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
policies for revenues in Wales. You also said at the start that this | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
package on offer in the Draft Wales Bill is a good deal for Wales. | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
Meanwhile, your colleagues are Shadow Welsh Secretary is talking | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
about tax competition across the UK. What is the position here? Is tax | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
competition something you're worried about? We were signed up to this | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
from the start. The cross-party group also said that the Hall of | :53:00. | :53:08. | |
Silk in its entirety was something we signed up to. We would | :53:09. | :53:28. | |
we want those leave us as a responsible Welsh Government. Should | :53:29. | :53:56. | |
people look forward to paying more or less tax? First of all we need to | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
look at getting those levers. We need to look at the | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
responsibilities. I am the Finance Minister and this is about revenues. | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
Once income from those taxes is transferred to Wales, it will be a | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
switch from the Treasury and the switch on here. People know that we | :54:16. | :54:24. | |
will be fair about that and we will be responsible. That is why we have | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
experts helping us. There will be a full consultation and we want to | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
ensure that taxes like those around property transactions, for homes and | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
non-domestic property, is theatre and more progressive and meets the | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
needs of the people in Wales. With the possible recent exception | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
of tax, no topic looms large over Welsh politics like the NHS. A plan | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
to centralise some key hospital services in south Wales faces an | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
uncertain future. The NHS as a blueprint, but one of | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
the health boards involved refuses to accept all the changes. The | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
Health Board rejects plans for accident and emergency and | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
specialist care for mothers, newborn babies and children. It stands to | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
lose services from the local hospital for people in the Rhondda. | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
Labour MP Chris Bryant gave his reaction. I am not happy. One of the | :55:23. | :55:30. | |
problems was that they were making an assumption that people from the | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
Rhondda and elsewhere in the valleys would go to Bridgend on Murtha if | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
services were not available at the Royal got more in. That is a big | :55:42. | :55:50. | |
mistake. It is an irony at the very moment they were deciding these | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
things on Thursday, the road was closed because of the snow and | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
people could not have got to the other two hospitals from the | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
Rhondda. Everybody will go to Cardiff. I do not think they have | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
factored into the equation is properly the effect that will have | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
an Cardiff, which is already at capacity. I have a real worry that | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
these proposals are not correct for Cardiff, let alone the people of the | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
Rhondda. That is why I will fight against them. That is a compromise | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
option out there know that will give a measure of protection to the | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
services at your local hospital, the Royal Glamorgan. Will you be pushing | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
for that doesn't not go far enough? I am delighted that one of the | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
things that programme says is that there needs to be an emphasis on | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
acute services in particular for the elderly, because we have a lot of | :56:40. | :56:41. | |
elderly people in the Rhondda. I am delighted that service will improve | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
and they will improve paediatric support. I really do worry in | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
particular about people who will not be taken by an Ann Jones to hospital | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
and that all of those people will go straight down to Cardiff. -- by an | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
ambulance. The already problems in Cardiff with ambulances queueing up | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
to park and the services in the hospital. I worry about that. It is | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
great that the local Health Board have come up with an alternative | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
solution, which I think will watch mock -- will work much better. I | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
want to see that adopted. The Rhondda MP Chris Bryant. | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
Joining me in the studio is our political editor Nick Servini. Let's | :57:28. | :57:38. | |
just Re-the Conservatives Story. It Is Worth Having A Reminder That It | :57:39. | :57:45. | |
Is About The Form Of Income Tax That Is Is In The Process Of Being | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
Devolved. The Welsh Covered In Future will not be able to isolate | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
or target particular bands. Any increase up or down has to be | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
mirrored in tandem at first 20p and 40p. Most Assembly Members believe | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
it is too restrictive and will not be used. One of those who believe | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
that as a leader of the Welsh coal, Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies. The | :58:11. | :58:20. | |
lockstep model is introduced by the Conservative lead College in | :58:21. | :58:22. | |
Government. With him being against it, he is going against the policy | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
of David Cameron and the Welsh Secretary David Jones. What we found | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
out this week is that he has had to sack for assembling for supporting | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
the Prime Minister. -- for assembling. One of those Assembly | :58:36. | :58:43. | |
Members, you got an idea from where he was coming from a tasty was not | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
prepared to vote against the party because he supported the lockstep | :58:47. | :58:53. | |
model. He admitted there was a problem within the group at the | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
Assembly but something that could be overcome. One that element to all of | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
this is he has had to sack for Assembly Members of an issue that is | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
very technical. With all due respect to those who have been fired, the | :59:09. | :59:21. | |
views had to dominate discussions intimidated the Mac added dinner | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
tables. -- Arent the dinner tables this Sunday. Andrew RT Davies has | :59:26. | :59:34. | |
tried to stamp his authority. It was interesting and a radio interview | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
that he gave this morning talking about anonymous briefings over a | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
period of two and a half years since he has become leader. Central to all | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
of this is a relationship with the Welsh Secretary, David Jones. It has | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
been a difficult relationship. They disagreed over the income tax model. | :59:51. | :00:00. | |
Davis talk about the debate around this scrapping of the Welsh office. | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
That relationship will need to improve. Clearly it is about him try | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
to stamp his authority on the party. Can he tough it out? All eyes will | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
be on the Assembly group. Various sources have told BBC where he did | :00:17. | :00:24. | |
not have a great support the. Andrew RT Davies says the four rebels | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
defied the whip so he had no option to sack them. All eyes will be on | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
whether he can retain the support of the Assembly group. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
direction? No, in real terms now the rent is falling in London. Andrew, | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
back to you. Welcome back. Let's start by talking | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
about the weather. What could be more British? It has been | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
practically the only topic of conversation for the past few | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
weeks. This morning, Ed Miliband has made the direct link, declaims, | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
between this exceptionally wet and windy weather and climate change. | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
That's an interesting development, taking place. Ed Miliband is the | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
author of the 2008 Climate Change Act, so he has to stick to that line | :01:15. | :01:23. | |
or his life 's work goes up in smoke. When he passed it, there was | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
Westminster consensus. Now the Tories are beginning to appeal off. | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
UKIP has definitely peeled off. Labour and Lib Dems are sticking to | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
their guns, there is now a debate? It has moved from consensus to very | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
fragile consensus. It's an interesting tactic for Ed Miliband | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
to take. He could either approach the floods talking about government | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
failures and handling, instead he has gone for the intellectual | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
argument, try and turn this into a debate about ideology and climate | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
change. I think he will find that quite difficult. Partly, I don't | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
think the public I get listening to an argument like that. Partly | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
because only one in three of the public totally agree with him. The | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
polls for The Times think that about one in three think that man-made I'm | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
a change is responsible for these floods, the rest do not. I'm not | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
sure that the interventions will be particularly well picked up. It puts | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
David Cameron in a difficult position. He was hugging those | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
huskies, it was going to be the greenest Government ever, and now he | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
has an Environment secretary that doesn't really believe in climate | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
change. Well, we don't know where he stands. That is not where he was in | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
2010. It has always been sold to us that he is statesman-like and | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
pragmatic, but that drifts into he doesn't really believe anything. | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
This is a worldwide phenomenon now. You've got the Canadian government, | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
they are pretty sceptical these days. The new Australian government | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
is pretty sceptical. The Obama administration has been attacked by | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
the green movement across the United States, he is probably about to | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
approve the keystone pipeline that will take over the Texas refineries. | :03:07. | :03:16. | |
What was a huge consensus across the globe is a guinea to break down? | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
Probably started to break down about the time of the financial crisis, | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
the age of austerity, when suddenly people had more to worry about than | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
green issues. Even at home it is a slightly risky tactic for Ed | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
Miliband. The idea there is a scientific consensus on this, there | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
isn't. You look at Professor Collins this morning, climate systems | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
expert, saying, actually, the jet stream is not operating further | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
south because of climate change. Or if it is, it is beyond our | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
knowledge. He flies in the face of what Ed Miliband as saying. He's | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
saying the wet weather is caused by global warming, the head of science | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
at Exeter University says the IPCC originally looked at whether climate | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
change could affect what happens to the jet stream and, because it had | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
no evidence it had any effect, it decided not to include it at all in | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
the IPCC report. The problem we have got is that any individual | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
phenomenon is difficult to attribute to climate change. But the Labour | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
Leader just have? And The Met Office have done the same thing. It's a | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
fragile in, but overall we can say we are getting more extreme weather | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
than ever. The most extreme weather, hurricanes and tropical storm is, | :04:30. | :04:31. | |
they have been in decline. Equally, we have had ten of the hottest | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
summers in the last ten years since 1998. Overall, there is a case that | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
can be made that we are getting more. Each individual thing is | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
difficult to say. Until recently, almost everyone agreed with that | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
case. Now the parties are reflecting differences. I wanted to move on, | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
what did you make of two interesting things that happened with the | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
interview with UKIP and the Tories, one Cory saying I am voting to come | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
out, and the UKIP chap saying we are maxed out on Tory defectors, we | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
can't get any more? I think that was a dangerous admission from Patrick | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
O'Flynn from UKIP, essentially saying that their vote has peaked. | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
Looking at the by-elections, I'm not sure that was a particularly wise | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
reflection on that. They got 18%, 23% last year. The case he is making | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
is that there are more votes to be gained by attracting former Labour | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
voters than former Tories. I'm not sure that red UKIP, the bit of UKIP | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
that tries to make benefit protection and some other kind of | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
social issues at the heart really sits comfortably with their | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
insurgent, anti-state message. I don't think it will do particularly | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
well. This is why they are pushing the message, it is their response to | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
the idea and suggestion of a Tory rallying cry that they vote for | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
Nigel Farage, and it is really a vote for Ed Miliband. Patrick is a | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
very good journalist, a very good commentator. He answered almost as a | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
commentator rather than head of communications for a political | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
party. The Government are still trying to rid itself of troublesome | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
priests, an attack on welfare reforms from the Catholic Archbishop | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
of Westminster. Let's have a look and see what he said. The basic | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
safety net that was there to guarantee that people would not be | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
left in hunger or in destitution has actually been torn apart. It no | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
longer exists. And it is a real, real, dramatic crisis. The second is | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
that, in this context, the administration of social assistance, | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
I am told, has become more and more punitive. If applicants do not get | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
it right, they have to wait and they have to wait for ten days, two | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
weeks, with nothing. Has the basic safety net disappeared? I don't see | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
how it is possible to argue that. It is certainly the case that there | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
have been reductions in various benefits, some benefits have been | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
scrapped and there is a welfare reform programme. But this country | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
is still spending ?94 billion a year on working age benefits. Excluding | :07:20. | :07:28. | |
pensions? The idea that this equates to some sort of wiping out of the | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
safety net is... He has gone on a full frontal assault on the Tory | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
reforms, not the kind of attack that Labour would be prepared to make? | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
No, they know that it doesn't play very well in the country. He's not | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
up for election. Whether or not you agree about the safety net, I think | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
the welfare reforms have been poorly managed and I don't think that is a | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
full dispute. Universal credit, it is in some very long grass. It had | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
some stupid ideas, like the idea that it would be paid monthly, | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
instead of weekly, meaning that people are more likely to run out of | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
money by the end of the month. It's interesting, in the past, when | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
members of the cloth have attacked the government for welfare reforms, | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
the Government have responded by trying to paint them as lefties, | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
ideological driven. I think that is hard in this case, an assault made | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
deliberately in the Telegraph from somebody who feels they come from a | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
centre-right position. I think there will be a bit of awkwardness about | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
this intervention. It is not the kind of thing they wanted to see. Is | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
it politically damaging for the Government? It is if it makes them | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
look mean-spirited. But that is the problem with welfare reforms. You | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
can say all sorts of things about Iain Duncan Smith's competence. But | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
the whole thing springs from a moral mission, as he sees it, to liberate | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
the poor and extend opportunity. One of the worst moments for the Tories | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
was blaming the low level of voting in Wythenshawe and sale in the fact | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
that the constituency had, in the words of one senior Tory, the | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
largest council estate in Europe inside its constituency boundary. | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
The point being what? Because you live in a council estate you don't | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
vote? That they don't see people living in council estate as one of | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
them, not an impulse that Margaret Thatcher would have had. I think | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
it's dangerous if they are painting is people as opponents rather than | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
trying to win them over. When they do vote, they determine elections! | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
The idea that there is no such thing as a working-class Tory is toxic. I | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
want to show you a picture. There we go. It is behind me, on the 5th of | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
February, it is all men. And then, on the next, look at that, the 12th, | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
there are a few women. Not exactly many, but some. It is an | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
improvement. But it is so transparent, isn't it? We phoned up | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
one of the women that sat behind David Cameron to ask, why the sudden | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
change? They said, I don't know why you are bothering to ask, it is | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
completely natural, we didn't do anything to stage manage it. Did his | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
nose gets longer? It is something that is very transparent and | :10:17. | :10:18. | |
depressing about the way politicians choose to react to these moments. | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Every week they put two women behind David Cameron, so that a tight shot | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
shows them. It is called the doughnut. They don't have many women | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
to shuffle around, there are only four among 14 in the Shadow Cabinet. | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
Also, the fact that women, younger women in particular, are much less | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
likely to vote Tory than five or ten years ago. David Cameron, it drives | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
and furious, he is obviously aware this is one of the biggest potential | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
demographic problem is that they have. It also reminds us of how the | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
public can actually see the wiring behind a lot of the stuff. Do they | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
really think your blog so stupid that they will not notice that the | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
following week the front bench is packed with women? I think it just | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
increases contempt for the entire rocket. It is an issue where Labour | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
seem to have pulled ahead of the other parties. We are being told | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
that 50% of candidates in their 100 target seats will be female. It | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
looks like the composition of Labour continues to go towards a kind of | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
rough 50-50 split, eventually. Although that is true, I think the | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
faces we see on the telly, Ed Miliband, Ed Balls, Chris Leslie, | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
they are almost always men. There is a Rachel Reeves, a prominent female | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
face that goes up a lot. But really, the number of e-mails they put up is | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
proportionally a lot smaller. Is the Miliband team still a men's club? | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
Behind the scenes, it is very blokey. It's been described as a | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
kind of seminar room at a university. I think that is true. | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
The Observer did the cutout and keep of the people behind Mr Miliband. As | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
opposed to the Shadow Cabinet, with lots of women in it, it was very | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
male. The one reason Labour have all of these women to put up in | :12:20. | :12:21. | |
constituencies is all women short lists is. If Tories want to change | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
things, I know they can be prone to minute -- and in relation, but they | :12:28. | :12:39. | |
work. In ten years time, I think it will give Labour an immense | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
advantage. By then, I think they will have a woman leader. Who will | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
that be? Potentially somebody not even yet in the Commons. You can see | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
how quickly people can rise to the top, but the Labour Party is going | :12:56. | :13:04. | |
to be increasingly donated by women. Do you think there will be a Labour | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
Leader before Theresa May becomes leader of the Conservatives? I think | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
it is ultimately about Osborne trying to stop Boris. I think I | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
would be astonished if she managed it. The first female Labour Leader? | :13:18. | :13:25. | |
I would pick Rachel Reeves the way it is currently going, she knows her | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
stuff and does well on TV. That is all for this week. We have a week | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
off now. I'll be back in the week after next. Remember, if it is | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless it's a Parliamentary recess. | :13:43. | :13:45. |