Browse content similar to 26/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
Theresa May still has plenty on her plate, | :00:48. | :00:47. | |
not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords. | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland, | :00:51. | :00:51. | |
the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever. | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election, | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live. | :00:59. | :01:08. | |
You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden! | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
Coming up in Sunday Politics for Wales, | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
what next for UKIP, after this week's by-elections? | :01:24. | :01:24. | |
In London, will the rise in council in Wales under threat? | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care? | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
to say have so far not been banned from the White House. | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly, | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates, | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last | :01:57. | :02:07. | |
Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
today. Thursday was a big night | :05:46. | :05:46. | |
for political obsessives like us, with not one but two | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered, | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper, | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside, | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first, | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
played down the defeat, insisting his party's | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
time would come. Are you going to stand again | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again, | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this | :07:31. | :07:39. | |
weekend who have got But a few minutes later, | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn, | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000 | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight | :07:53. | :08:03. | |
is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed, | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18 | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes | :08:10. | :08:21. | |
I think is an incredible The morning after the night | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
before, the losing parties were licking their wounds | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
and their lips over breakfast. For years and years, | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed, | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
that era has gone. It's a new era, it is | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
a second age for us. So that needs to be | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined, | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
you know, and that will We have to continue to improve | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
in seats where we have stood. As we have done here, | :08:54. | :09:02. | |
we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important, | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come | :09:06. | :09:07. | |
here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
a seat to a governing party for the first time | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question - | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
who came out on top. No governing party has made | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army | :09:55. | :09:56. | |
of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in | :10:08. | :10:18. | |
Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson | :10:22. | :10:23. | |
warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
south of the border. Well, I'm joined now | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost | :10:35. | :10:49. | |
Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to | :10:58. | :11:05. | |
support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
class communities across the country, but we listened very hard | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish | :12:14. | :12:15. | |
Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement. | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly. | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions, | :15:21. | :15:21. | |
correct? It is absolutely the policy of the | :15:22. | :15:31. | |
UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders. | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
in this country. It is not united on that | :16:07. | :16:29. | |
issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people | :16:34. | :16:35. | |
like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power. | :16:39. | :16:40. | |
Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the | :16:41. | :16:42. | |
whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He | :16:48. | :16:49. | |
wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain, | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with | :17:32. | :17:46. | |
ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and | :17:54. | :17:55. | |
reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist. | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account. | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London, | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? -- | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years' | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for | :20:12. | :20:13. | |
joining us. Thursday's win for Labour | :20:14. | :20:14. | |
in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn, | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's | :20:20. | :20:21. | |
principal political Welcome to the programme. Good | :20:22. | :20:31. | |
morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks, | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer. | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit. | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success. | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of | :21:37. | :21:53. | |
Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are | :21:54. | :21:55. | |
passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What | :21:59. | :22:00. | |
would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It | :22:54. | :22:55. | |
comes to the heart of the problem your party faces. | :22:56. | :23:12. | |
You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment, | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso | :23:18. | :23:19. | |
labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election, | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
and community. We want an immigration system that is not only | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It | :24:25. | :24:32. | |
would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions | :24:37. | :24:38. | |
and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader, | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test, | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by, | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough. | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party. | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere. | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields, | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years' | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
magnificent achievement. Thank you very much. | :28:14. | :28:15. | |
Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often | :28:16. | :28:17. | |
should because this week it was pulled into | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
the global spotlight, thanks | :28:21. | :28:21. | |
Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that | :28:22. | :28:30. | |
had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
about a report he had watched on Fox News. | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
But as if to prove he was onto something, | :28:44. | :28:45. | |
next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
So what has been Sweden's experience of migration? | :28:51. | :29:00. | |
In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced | :29:04. | :29:10. | |
border restrictions and stopped offering permanent | :29:11. | :29:11. | |
Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime, | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences. | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
Although the country does have the highest reported | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded. | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled | :29:44. | :29:45. | |
Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the | :29:55. | :30:07. | |
governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and | :30:08. | :30:09. | |
The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks, | :30:10. | :30:25. | |
pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social | :30:52. | :30:59. | |
unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped | :32:54. | :33:01. | |
her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm. | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this. | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start | :34:49. | :34:57. | |
enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and | :35:32. | :35:33. | |
working in different fields of society, and they help our country. | :35:34. | :35:41. | |
Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand. | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No, | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo | :36:55. | :37:05. | |
registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010 | :37:06. | :37:14. | |
people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies. | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
total denial by an entire political class is now something that is | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
of the people living there but rather because of different | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
on integration and making sure people get a job, and also | :40:01. | :40:14. | |
on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
grateful to you both, we have to leave it there. | :40:24. | :40:24. | |
It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :40:28. | :40:29. | |
the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales. | :40:36. | :40:45. | |
In a few minutes, are human rights in Wales under threat? | :40:46. | :40:47. | |
A leading barrister tells us that UK government plans | :40:48. | :40:49. | |
And all change? How the train arriving in 2018 | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
could be very different from the service we get now. | :40:54. | :41:01. | |
But first, Ukip has portrayed itself as a party which can supplant Labour | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
in its heartland seats, but in last week's two by-elections, | :41:05. | :41:06. | |
How will it fare in the local elections in Wales in a few weeks? | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
And has it lost its raison d'etre since the Brexit vote? | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
Its leader in Wales, Neil Hamilton, is here with me now. | :41:15. | :41:22. | |
Good morning. Regarding last week 's by-elections. Paul Nuttall Seeing | :41:23. | :41:37. | |
that they should be winning the seat. But the party failed to do | :41:38. | :41:49. | |
that. I think it was a mistake at thinking that people had voted to | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
leave the European Union was naturally going to mean would also | :41:54. | :42:03. | |
fought for hours in the by-election. Because the Conservative Party are a | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
Brexit bones of sorts, despite having a remain leader, it gets | :42:09. | :42:17. | |
harder for us. We feel to create the sort of momentum we required. The | :42:18. | :42:28. | |
Conservatives know seem to have taken on the mantle of the | :42:29. | :42:38. | |
pro-Brexit party. In many ways, the main selling point of Ukip as | :42:39. | :42:52. | |
vanished. In the last 20 years, the party has become part of the | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
domestic political scene. We need to focus on other issues. One of the | :42:58. | :43:06. | |
things I was focusing on was cutting the aid budget and putting that into | :43:07. | :43:22. | |
the NHS. For people in Stoke Central, the issues were not just | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
the European Union, they were very focused on local issues, such as | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
local hospitals and other services. I think really needed the candidate | :43:36. | :43:43. | |
who was from there, who had plenty of time to get their message across. | :43:44. | :43:52. | |
You said the party was an essential part of British politics. We have | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
six or seven members in the assembly. The Labour Party can only | :44:00. | :44:10. | |
have a majority with the consent of other parties, so we are an | :44:11. | :44:18. | |
important voice in the country. A lot of opinion polls suggest that we | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
were -- we do better now than we did last year. But the party had been | :44:23. | :44:38. | |
rooted in very bitter infighting. We have been involved in all of the | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
debates. As an opposition party, we cannot always get what we want. At | :44:43. | :44:57. | |
the moment, the Labour Party and the Nationalists unable to say that they | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
have been able to do stuff. Ukip cannot do that. Will they have come | :45:04. | :45:11. | |
to mini arrangements over these things. There are some issues which | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
we would be able to influence government policy, but only if they | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
are prepared to bargain with us. If not, they will go elsewhere. But you | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
are not an essential part of the picture then. We are, because in an | :45:27. | :45:34. | |
election, people will vote for us in substantial numbers, based on the | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
last election. That will affect the number of votes that other parties | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
get. We will play an important part in the debate on all the issues. We | :45:44. | :45:52. | |
want to democratise the NHS in the country for example. We want to | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
become more responsive to local needs. An essential election coming | :45:56. | :46:11. | |
up this year, the council elections. While everybody wanting to vote for | :46:12. | :46:22. | |
Ukip across Wales have a chance of doing so? No, we do not have the | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
resources to do that. We will not have candidates setting everywhere. | :46:27. | :46:37. | |
We got 14% in the general election. The Conservatives only got about | :46:38. | :46:47. | |
20%. We would like candidates in every media, but not necessarily in | :46:48. | :46:55. | |
every ward. Is that the problem. You see you are an essential part of the | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
political scene here, but you cannot fumed enough candidates when it | :47:01. | :47:02. | |
comes the likes of council elections. I am mostly just the | :47:03. | :47:22. | |
leader and the Assembly. That is not a formal leader in Wales. I am just | :47:23. | :47:38. | |
operating within the Assembly. You are not filling me with confidence | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
that you are looking forward to the council elections. You say you are | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
talking about domestic issues, it does not get much more domestic than | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
council elections. We are a small party compared to the others. We did | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
not have the infrastructure which has been built up over many | :48:00. | :48:08. | |
generations. It is more for us to spread our resources thinly. But we | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
will do the very best we can to have a major impact. News in the | :48:13. | :48:21. | |
newspapers today that Arron Banks has given an ultimatum to the party | :48:22. | :48:22. | |
leader. What do you think of? He is not even | :48:23. | :48:44. | |
a member of party. He keeps making this assertion that he gives us lots | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
of money. I do not think he is given as money for many years. He made the | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
disastrous intervention is Stoke Central. He is a rich person can | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
just buy anything he wants, so he thinks. He is a man with a big | :49:00. | :49:13. | |
growth and a big green. -- bigmouth. With that split the party? I do not | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
think so. He has been training to do this for a long time. I do not think | :49:20. | :49:27. | |
it would make a major difference. You mentioned at the beginning, | :49:28. | :49:40. | |
trying to take Wales away from other parties. As the direction and trying | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
to take over Labour Party or Conservative Party voters with you? | :49:46. | :49:54. | |
We are having the likes of fairly unique positions on the lakes of | :49:55. | :50:07. | |
over CD. -- overseas E. We think we should cut fuel and electricity | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
bills by upping the subsidies to farmers from the likes of wind | :50:15. | :50:22. | |
farms. We have various very unique positions with regard to the NHS and | :50:23. | :50:30. | |
we need to put their message across. We will do just that. | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
A leading human rights barrister has told this programme human rights | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
in Wales could be eroded, if UK government plans come to pass. | :50:37. | :50:38. | |
Ministers at Westminster have proposed replacing | :50:39. | :50:40. | |
the Human Rights Act, which could curtail the role | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
AMs in Cardiff Bay are now looking into how that could affect Wales, | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
When you think of human rights, what comes to mind? | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
Is it images of refugees or war crimes and torture? | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
Well, it is a field that has an impact on all of our daily lives. | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
Now, with suggestions that Westminster is looking | :50:58. | :50:59. | |
to alter human rights laws, the Assembly in Cardiff Bay | :51:00. | :51:01. | |
is looking at how any such moves might affect Wales. | :51:02. | :51:03. | |
From children to prisoners, human rights laws protect all of us, | :51:04. | :51:11. | |
but there is no denying it is a broad and complex topic. | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
The committee have tried to narrow their inquiry down | :51:15. | :51:16. | |
to three key issues - the impact of Brexit, | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
the possible impact of the UK's government's proposal to repeal | :51:20. | :51:21. | |
the 1998 Human Rights Act and replace it with a Bill of Rights | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
and public perceptions of human rights laws here in Wales. | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
But some are concerned that the pillars which support our | :51:28. | :51:29. | |
way of life, including our human rights, are under threat. | :51:30. | :51:39. | |
Just to put it into some context, there was existing UK legislation | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
dating back to the '70s that protected, for example, employee | :51:43. | :51:44. | |
right against discrimination, so it is important to remember that. | :51:45. | :51:52. | |
But, yes, absolutely, I do think there will be a slow | :51:53. | :51:54. | |
erosion of the existing rights and protections that really is line | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
With many possible changes afoot with regard to human rights laws, | :51:58. | :52:11. | |
the Assembly's Equality Commission is looking at their | :52:12. | :52:13. | |
At a time when there is so much tension, I think, and worry, | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
as to whether people's rights, whether it is at work, | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
whether it is not to be discriminated against, | :52:21. | :52:22. | |
whether it is around the issue of asylum seekers and refugees, | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
there is a lot of worry that some of the inclusive practices we have | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
built in Wales are under threat at the moment because of world | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
events and events in the UK and we have to guard against that. | :52:32. | :52:42. | |
There have been debates about the issue of prisoners' votes | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
and not being able to deport some terrorists, due to human | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
rights laws, do you think there is a problem with public | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
There can be a problem with public perception, | :52:52. | :52:58. | |
but it can mainly come from media sensationalism around | :52:59. | :53:00. | |
I think, if we look at the general experience of people in Wales | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
and well beyond Wales, their everyday lives are improved, | :53:05. | :53:06. | |
their rights are safeguarded and protected by that human rights | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
approach and the international standards that apply. | :53:10. | :53:26. | |
Among the charities who have already responded to the Assembly committee, | :53:27. | :53:28. | |
The Royal National Institute for the Blind said: | :53:29. | :53:38. | |
The Older People's Commisioner for Wales said: | :53:39. | :53:48. | |
Chwarae Teg, which helps women achieve more in the workplace, | :53:49. | :53:50. | |
This gay rights march on Cardiff's Queens Street in 1986, | :53:51. | :54:06. | |
compared with the Pride Parade on the same street in August of last | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
year demonstrates how far LGBT rights have developed over the past | :54:10. | :54:11. | |
30 years, but some are worried much of the progress could be undone. | :54:12. | :54:19. | |
Since the introduction of the Human Rights Act, | :54:20. | :54:20. | |
there have been several rulings in UK and EU courts | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
which have advanced legal protection for LGBT people. | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
Our concern is, that without those protections, | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
we could see progress going back decades. | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
In a week where US President Donald Trump rescinded transgender bathroom | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
rules from the Obama era, do you think this | :54:38. | :54:39. | |
Well, three of the principles of human rights are that | :54:40. | :54:47. | |
they are indivisible, universal and inalienable. | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
We are seeing these principles being attacked on a global scale. | :54:52. | :54:53. | |
We are seeing them being questioned by politicians in the UK and also | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
by the Trump administration, with the idea that it is up to individual | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
states or services to decide whether they respect the rights | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
A Ministry of Justice spokesperson told us, | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
"The UK government remains committed to reforming the domestic | :55:08. | :55:09. | |
"human rights framework and that they will consider further | :55:10. | :55:11. | |
"the Bill of Rights, once Brexit arrangements are finalised." | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
All Assembly laws have to comply with human rights. | :55:20. | :55:21. | |
With Theresa May repeatedly saying tha Britain would be better served | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
by leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, | :55:26. | :55:27. | |
The Equality Committee says their inquiry | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
is instrumental in ensuring that the Assembly will be prepared | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
for whatever changes are made in the future. | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
Now, few things wind people up more than the state of our trains, | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
so how would you like to see Welsh trains run? | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
The franchise for most of the tracks which run in Wales | :55:48. | :55:49. | |
is up for grabs in 2018 and the consultation | :55:50. | :55:51. | |
Some say there is a chance for a once-in-a-lifetime change. | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
One man who knows more than most about trains | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
is Professor Stuart Cole, who is here now. | :56:00. | :56:13. | |
Next year, it is all up for grabs. What could actually change? One | :56:14. | :56:24. | |
company will win the franchise. There are four competitors. The | :56:25. | :56:32. | |
current company Arriva is one of them. They will have the | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
responsibility for running all of the genes within the country. He | :56:36. | :56:48. | |
will be responsible for all the local services. Is this the chance | :56:49. | :56:57. | |
that the Welsh scum and hers to see this is what we want to see this is | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
what you are asked to provide? They have said questions to the Quartet | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
of bidders. That was the first stage of the process. They will have | :57:11. | :57:21. | |
outlined the key strategies. There was a chance for them to pick ideas | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
with regard to the likes of electrification. They have also been | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
asked about frequency, queer the priorities would lie and those would | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
go into what is currently the lilting pot. All the heads of the | :57:41. | :57:48. | |
franchises have been interviewed and the government will then take the | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
best of what they can gain from all over, with regard to affordability. | :57:53. | :58:01. | |
Is there an issue with forcing is forecasting the capacity demand will | :58:02. | :58:10. | |
be in a decade 's time? It is difficult to do that. Things change. | :58:11. | :58:18. | |
The existing franchise was awarded this like 14 years ago. Since then, | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
the number of people on trains has shot up. It has go up by about 8% | :58:25. | :58:36. | |
annually. A lot of things with Robin changes affect demand. The likes of | :58:37. | :58:46. | |
concerns about the environment coming from the amount of cars on | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
the road, things like that have been much more to the forefront in the | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
last 15 years and that has helped push the numbers up. But it is very | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
hard to forecast. The government says it wants to have this | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
not-for-profit model. As a possible to have that sort of winning | :59:08. | :59:14. | |
franchise? The not-for-profit, not for dividend, element could be | :59:15. | :59:22. | |
achieved, in the same way as that is the ethos of transport for London. | :59:23. | :59:31. | |
The law currently requires a private company to run the trains one behalf | :59:32. | :59:46. | |
of transport for wheels. How easy is it to be profitable here? We need so | :59:47. | :59:56. | |
many genes to go over so many people. How easy is it for the | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
government to be able to insist that that all of the healing demands are | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
met from the four franchise is trying to get the contract? It may | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
come down to how much the government is willing to subsidise? A lot of | :00:16. | :00:28. | |
that has to do with that. The government will obviously try and | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
maximise what they can get from each of the train companies. It was to | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
get as much from the train company for itself. But it is not just about | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
purely money for anyone, but also value for money for the customer. | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
Those are the kinds of questions that will be asked. That is what the | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
companies have been asked to answer solutions to. They will be looking | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
at the bottom line, the profit margins. That is the way it works. | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
In present legislation, that has to be a private company and they all | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
have to be within the United Kingdom bidding for a government contract. | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
If the government has for too much and the company says they cannot do | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
that, will thus have to go back to the consultation fees because some | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
of them walk away? There is a possibility of the problem. A lot of | :01:32. | :01:40. | |
extra research work has had to be done the market and into the issue | :01:41. | :01:49. | |
of taking over other potential lanes. Whether or not companies | :01:50. | :01:59. | |
would pull out of a stage or come around and said it will give as a | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
500 million subsidy with as we think it needs to be 700 million, they | :02:05. | :02:13. | |
would either say they have to either find additional funding or start the | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
whole process again. I think someone will find it acceptable to find it, | :02:19. | :02:29. | |
to run the service that we may want in the way the government wants. It | :02:30. | :02:37. | |
is very much a matter of how much money can be pulled out here for | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
this. If they can pool at the amounts of money, they are talking | :02:42. | :02:52. | |
about brand-new trains. We have got trains which are 40 years old. We | :02:53. | :03:01. | |
have got all that trains. If it is to be transformational, we need new | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
trains, additional frequency and a fleet which is workable and achieve | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
all of the things the passengers require in the passenger experience. | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
That is what they should be looking at. Is that possible with the | :03:21. | :03:29. | |
profitability framework of the company and coupled with the | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
government subsidy? This programme, of course, | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
unlike some trains, always runs exactly on time! | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
That is it for another week. Welcome back. Article 50, which | :03:36. | :03:54. | |
triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out. | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting, | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of | :07:20. | :07:28. | |
the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50 | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage. | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
within that small group of people is the president of the United States, | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is | :08:41. | :08:48. | |
recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
series of people within the administration. That relationship | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal. | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are | :10:41. | :10:52. | |
having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government, | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
positive context in some way or another and it is one example of | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12 | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem. | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
people will feel the cost living squeeze. | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow. | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
We'll be back here at the same time next week. | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:35. | :13:40. |