Andrew Neil and Arwyn Jones with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by head of NHS Providers Chris Hopson, Nick Clegg MP and Andrew Gwynne MP.
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,
After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.
With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,
Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.
NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission
impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,
unless hospitals are given more cash this year.
Later in the programme. Providers joins me live.
A stark warning from the First Minister unless there's
clarity over who does what after Brexit.
And the Tory leader in Wales, after a tricky week for the party.
All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking
to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg
from his party's spring conference in York.
With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,
three of the country's top political commentators:
Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.
So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.
As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,
the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum
on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts
to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key
budget measure just one week after announcing it.
Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week
Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First
Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.
She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK
By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's
future will be decided, not just by me, the
Scottish Government, or the
SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.
Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject
amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to
The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned
attempts to change it and it becomes law.
But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.
Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.
We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the
We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling
the planned rise in National Insurance for
the self-employed announced the budget.
It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.
The trend towards greater self-employment does create a
We will bring forward further proposals
but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this
It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.
By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues
fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax
Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the
Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending
But that's not what the Prime Minister
Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a
We should be working together, not pulling apart.
We should be working together to get that
right deal for Scotland, that
So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and
so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.
Friday and time for the faithful to gather.
SNP activists at their spring conference
Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister
promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.
At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly
I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The
Evening Standard and, you know, with so many
big issues in our world what
good analysis, great news journalism.
It's a really important time for good journalism that The
Evening Standard is going to provide.
There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals
Under my proposals we keep the Barnett
Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the
and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.
And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the
What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,
Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign
of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the
events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with
the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy
periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and
try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.
Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or
so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily
the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel
more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential
drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your
original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic
quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory
backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school
funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will
get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.
Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister
said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime
Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done
quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in
frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,
OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has
already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with
Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle
for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality
bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same
time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge
to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and
Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it
reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is
over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is
how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is
not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a
normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more
mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible
workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to
call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she
tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a
second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the
rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this
week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to
her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She
expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for
her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows
66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off
with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second
referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined
with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her
calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,
I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your
desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a
fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak
opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most
daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I
think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an
election. I don't think she has thought about how you would
manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the
energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning
the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the
small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.
Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be
difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of
going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't
and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which
is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as
commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but
they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in
unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because
she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through
Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an
early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write
a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's
box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.
The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may
replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an
election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself
you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall
see. So if Theresa May did go
for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns
and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we
have just been talking about, executed one of the most
embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a
torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still
so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an
early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing
ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that
we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only
challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative
for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,
would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't
want this government to be in power so of course if there is an
opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a
better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course
we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote
in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an
opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in
government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with
the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very
seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but
would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to
be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to
bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the
British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together
Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a
General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance
of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an
early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?
It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to
dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories
in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that
opportunity to put that case to the British people.
Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all
but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?
How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of
money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the
Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it
inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to
build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We
have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are
taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian
Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the
Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the
support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the
electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready
for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got
your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the
shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if
there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these
things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its
annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates
policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last
Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a
fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much
extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going
to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.
I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We
have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out
Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there
hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war
footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,
can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under
a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.
And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an
election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th
of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't
having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy
development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think
you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll
ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the
Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in
safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long
does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the
Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour
Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party
merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in
case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be
talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation
about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually
for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting
with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the
prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,
given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its
mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be
about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17
behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as
an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you
still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?
These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was
settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.
Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it
is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it
is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will
you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future
looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,
where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit
cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make
sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to
fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to
make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour
returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.
And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring
conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.
Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps
Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In
what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not
saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim
Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware
what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was
arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound
supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as
Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so
ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,
Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more
isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach
that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans
to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,
Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,
nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In
what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has
interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote
you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over
the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have
to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was
in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not
right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we
have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald
Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different
view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not
antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not
aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the
British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by
choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing
so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self
harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the
threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so
ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view
speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not
challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs
that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring
conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long
time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a
realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards
that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a
realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want
that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the
recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People
often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election
we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we
have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in
Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way
seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted
for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling
increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party
because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable
from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk
on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite
them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across
parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster
village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,
inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people
on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the
ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence
to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be
thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we
are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the
referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated
ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something
unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can
guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the
British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work
out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she
will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new
trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of
that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there
will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use
this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling
back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or
thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were
promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this
glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the
world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of
years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to
take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of
quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always
welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is
certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you
spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or
spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper
editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's
feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law
against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will
again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also
wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in
the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his
self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on
a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you
will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.
Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been
warning the health service needs more money to help it meet
But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered
no immediate relief, and today the head of
the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds
of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency
care and planned operations, unless the Government
Warnings over funding are not exactly new.
Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,
published his plan for the future of the health service.
In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England
would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.
To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money
from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,
and that the health service could account for the rest by making
The Government says it's given the health service more than what it
asked for, and that NHS in England will have received
That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair
of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more
like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget
have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.
Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished
the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts
from the Government, the NHS is likely to record
Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A
departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being
This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care
but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn
that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked
And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS
Providers in England, Chris Hopson.
Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra
money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part
of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a
bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so
on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18
billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising
more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that
is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS
knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are
somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.
Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22
billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year
and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25
billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the
2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to
which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period
and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen
before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come
onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some
extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument
about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this
extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?
Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward
view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the
centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms
length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was
consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that
the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS
where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every
year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able
to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding
increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release
we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would
not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in
other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts
Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.
Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.
How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we
estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you
clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour
A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and
operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900
million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you
would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of
those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion
on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5
billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is
important we should make an important distinction about the NHS
versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour
government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return
for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,
the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery
we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would
want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for
it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest
financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going
up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand
go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I
think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going
to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I
think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS
as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have
got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36
office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to
1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know
in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the
last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement
gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25
billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But
having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where
there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it
for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its
contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as
efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for
you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise
those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would
go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a
deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the
moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release
land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts
which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous
organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.
Have you raised that with the government?
Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard
somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big
salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for
the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more
money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being
properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And
yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in
a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I
have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight
in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,
mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most
complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to
be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we
should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid
are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion
a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There
was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the
problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need
and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having
to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem
and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those
amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas
is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you
could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,
what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government
has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing
funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can
I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the
first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we
can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work
in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very
important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the
financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being
asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of
time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.
It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.
Labour veteran Jack Straw on Brexit, devolution and his party's woes,
and Andrew RT Davies on how the Tories are putting this week
behind them and looking to the local elections.
But first more on the constitutional convention the First Minister says
he wants, to discuss the future shape of the UK.
When I spoke to Carwyn Jones, I asked how this was different
from a similar call he made five years ago.
We've got real challenges as far as the UK is concerned.
And those challenges can be met in order for the UK to remain
in the 21st century but we need to work out who does
what when we leave the EU and so far Whitehall hasn't
What we have said is, there are areas which are already
the responsibility of Wales, and Scotland and Northern Ireland,
there should be a joint decision-making process,
we have to work out what rules there will be in the internal
single market of the UK and who polices them.
Not difficult but the work needs to start now.
Isn't there a danger, though, you're going to be
We're already seeing the SNP calling for a second
The UK Government doesn't seem all that interested in your idea
of constitutional Convention, you're the mercy of others.
We were way ahead of the game, we recognised a long time ago
what the challenges would be for the UK.
It is up to Whitehall whether it listens enough
The ball in the UK Government's court.
If they don't listen, then people are going to make their own minds up
So these things have to be sorted out now rather than the platitudes
We need to see action now so we understand the UK
is a partnership of four nations, not one imposing its will
We have been discussing this for a number of years and I guess
the problem will be for people watching this programme now,
the constitution again, how is that going to improve my life?
With services, schools and hospitals, what would be
Certainty, we need to know who does what.
For example, if you don't have any rules at all about what can happen
in the UK if we leave the EU, we're going to have a trade war
in the UK between the different nations, no one wants that,
that would cost jobs, it would cost a lot of money,
And that needs to be resolved as soon as possible.
Do you think that could happen, there could be a trade
war between Scotland, England and Wales after Brexit?
The EU state aids rules govern what we can and can't do.
If there are no rules, it becomes a free for all,
that is a bad thing for any single market.
What will be your suggestion, how should this federalism,
this new relationship and your convention work?
Let's look at one example, Canada, where they have pooled sovereignty,
sovereignty is shared between the provinces
This idea that everything lies in Westminster and therefore
Westminster has control over every single policy, every
single thing ultimately, Parliamentary sovereignty,
I think it should be consigned to the history books.
We need to have a situation where we have a structure in place,
there is a recognition that not just of Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland, but England and the cities as well,
a modern constitution that will keep the UK together in the future.
But how do you get over the fact that what you have
in the United Kingdom is one massive entity, England, and the rest of
It's difficult, let's have a look at ways we can do that.
If we have for example a situation where, two examples,
The UK doesn't exist in agriculture and fisheries,
either it's European or it's the four nations who control
We need to have a mechanism in place where we can agree a common
framework and a common way forward where that's appropriate.
Animal health, for example, does it make sense to have three
different animal health regimes on one island?
We agree a common way forward but the difference is it should
That's what we need to look at in the future.
There are other ways in which we can look at this,
for example, the upper house, the Lords as it is now,
why not make that something like the American Senate
where there is equal representation from these four nations,
that recognises the fact that there are four nations
in this partnership, as of course the House of Commons
recognises the population difference between England and the other three.
So what do Carwyn Jones' political opponents make of all this?
James Williams took a trip to the future to find out.
Good evening and welcome to Wales Today.
Tonight's headlines on March 19th 2027.
With all eyes on elections in the newly independent Scotland
and the united Ireland, we ask what it will mean for Wales.
Meanwhile, a hat-trick for the Welsh football team
as they clinch the World Cup for third successive time.
OK, thanks very much, Jamie, thanks for that,
But in all seriousness, in the wake of the Brexit vote,
the idea of an independent Scotland and a united Ireland
So when it comes to Labour's plan for a constitutional
convention about the future of the United Kingdom,
I'll tell you the constitution convention we should be having,
And that's the kind of leadership that we should be seen
from the First Minister of Wales, is actually leading
a national conversation at these uncertain times.
And yet where is the vision for what this means for Wales?
That's the convention that we should be having, a cross-party,
across the whole of Wales, involving all sections of society,
Rather than the Labour Party talking to itself, why doesn't it talk
And in that conversation, Plaid Cymru wants to talk about
the prospect for an independent Wales.
They called for a renewed discussion on this just days
Whilst others were of course celebrating their independence.
The dawn is breaking on an independent United Kingdom.
But will it come at a price for the four nations?
I don't think that the UK will break up as a result of Brexit.
I think it will give more powers to the devolved institutions,
the parliament in Scotland and the assembly in Wales,
and that is going to help keep the kingdom together
because within a single entity, the devolved assemblies
So I think actually, it takes quite a lot
of power out of the demand for further separation.
Our party are clear, there must be a future
for the United Kingdom but there are issues that
Obviously the whole debate about devolution, the future
of the House of Lords, about electoral reform,
about devolving even more to local authorities,
there's a much bigger picture than what we have been presented
with at the moment and that requires a UK response.
So I do welcome it and I hope other political parties do as well.
This weekend has been a tale of two conferences.
And two competing visions for the future of the UK.
In Cardiff, the Prime Minister set out her desire to create
a more united union, just days after she rejected
Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second Scottish independent referendum.
It's safe to say Nicola Sturgeon got a better reception
than the Prime Minister amongst the SNP faithful.
With all this talk about the future of Northern Ireland and Scotland,
The majority of the Welsh electorate voted for Brexit which means that
Wales has far less leverage for example in the discussions
with the government in Edinburgh, even Belfast.
So frankly Wales is pretty marginalised, and that's of course
why for the Welsh Labour government the idea of a convention
is so attractive because I think they view it as a way of getting
themselves into the shop window if you like, making
As we prepare to leave one union, the future of the other union looks
Little is known about how either will turn out.
Now few people can say they've been in a Westminster
cabinet for 13 years, but Jack Straw is one of them.
The former Foreign Secretary, who also ran the Home Office
in his time, was visiting the University of
When I met him there I asked how trade talks would work after Brexit.
Well, it's not easy but I'm actually pretty optimistic about the future.
And that against a background in which I thought it was not
in our interests to leave the European Union.
We are 60 million people, we've got the fifth largest defence
forces in the world, we've got the fifth biggest economy.
We are the top four in exercise of what's called soft power.
It requires skill by British ministers and British
parliamentarians about how we negotiate.
And it's already clear that quite a number of countries,
Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Turkey, quite big countries,
want changes in trade arrangements with us so they're closer
We're going to reach a deal somehow or other with other member states
It's just possible we don't but I don't regard the WTO,
the foot, as a total disaster, let's see.
Going back 20 years, would have been the referendum
on devolution creating a Welsh assembly.
I remember it well, I remember trying to generate interest in a bus
station in Wrexham during the course of that campaign.
Well, I can't say it was my finest moment canvassing.
That's the thing, it was a very narrow,
considering the overwhelming majority...
Considering the thumping majority that Labour had,
just six months previously, to have such a narrow majority
there, how much of a disappointment and a surprise was that?
Well, I mean, look, there were plenty of people
who were firmly opposed to devolution back in the '70s.
I mean, Neil Kinnock famously who argued very,
very strongly and powerfully against the Labour Party's
Which is why the referendum in Wales in early '79
Anyway, it happened, but I think that the results
of Welsh devolution has been pretty benign.
I think it's good that Wales is running so many of its own
services from Cardiff, from its own national capital.
It's good that you're getting different parts
of the United Kingdom trying to achieve similar aims
but differently, say within the health service
within the education service, because they only benefit
What was the Labour view in Westminster when you saw you had
the New Labour project, academy schools, foundation
hospitals, or working with the private sector in England,
and then Wales's policy of clear water, we are not
following the New Labour model, it was almost a dirty word
If you give people power, you can't at the same time say,
and what's more, you've got to use the power the way
So my view is, that was a natural consequence of devolution,
that different parts of the UK, even in the same party,
And I personally think that academy schools and the use of the private
sector for the NHS has a role to play.
I'm not certain about that and I think it's terrific that
meanwhile, Labour colleagues in Wales are experimenting
in a different way by saying we're going to keep the private sector out
altogether, we're going to keep local authorities running schools.
You should not be dogmatic about this.
You should be dogmatic about the ends, free health service
at the point of use, good quality, free schooling,
but the means I think you should be pragmatic.
Which brings us on to Labour at the UK level.
How long do you think it will be before you're back
This is not me trying to pour terrible water on Labour's chances,
it's just a matter of fact and I should not be shot for saying
so, that Labour is going to be out of power for a long time
I occasionally go to the bookies and put money on events,
I'm not putting any money on Labour winning the next election.
I know nobody who would with the current leadership.
Well, look, there has to be a change of leader if we ever want to win.
I think that's even palpably obvious to Jeremy Corbyn.
The question is whether we have to wait until the next
But is a change of leader or a change of the politics of Labour?
It's both, just to replace Jeremy Corbyn with someone
who is another Jeremy Corbyn ain't going to work.
I mean people are not daft, they look at the totality
of what a leadership is offering and frankly, all the evidence
is that they turn away from what Mr Corbyn is offering
And it's a curious mixture of dogmatism and pure opportunism.
Take this question of the national insurance contributions
Understandably it caused a row on the Tory backbenchers.
But why have Labour joined in to support the Tory
I thought that we were a party in favour of ensuring that those
who could afford to paid a decent amount of taxation.
I also thought we were a party of, as the Institute
for Fiscal Studies has pointed out, if you are on similar incomes
and similar benefits, you should pay similar
And this proposal was to equalise the level of taxation the people
who are self employed with those who are employed.
It was, Labour would have done this had we been in government.
So quite why it's being decided to oppose it, I know why,
they thought it would embarrass the Conservatives.
It would have been far more sensible for us to have stuck
to our principles and said to Mrs May, we will support
you in the lobbies, doing something that was right which also had
the added advantage of splitting the Tory party.
It's been a difficult week for the Tories, but the message
from their conference in Cardiff this weekend was that the party
is moving forwards and looking to the local elections.
But when I met Andrew RT Davies, I had to begin by asking
I don't think politicians can win, can they?
At the end of the day they put something forward
and ultimately then they listen to the representations of the day
and they say, do you know what, maybe it's not such a good idea
and then they come to Parliament, they take all the questions
as Philip Hammond did take when he made his statement, and they
The decision wasn't going to come in until April next year anyway,
so no one has had to pay these monies over to the Treasury.
Whereas you take the situation here in Wales where you've got
businesses the length and breadth of Wales which are facing a huge
increase in their business rates and the Welsh government have done
very, very little to do, and I've been talking to the FSB
this morning over the problems many of their members are facing.
And so actually you can't have it that politicians will never
Here you have a classic case of a politician listening and acting
on the representations he is receiving.
The Welsh government would say they've spent over ?20 million
helping small businesses, small business relief in Wales.
But when you look at not just the economic history,
but you look at what is happening constitutionally in the UK now,
Nicola Sturgeon threatening that second independence referendum,
is that a concern at all in your mind that the price
of Brexit may well be the end of the United Kingdom?
Nicola Sturgeon didn't suddenly decide independence is a good
Nicola Sturgeon is a nationalist at the end of the day.
I respect her for that, that's her view, that's her party's
goal, to break up the union in the United Kingdom.
But actually if you look at what Nicola Sturgeon is looking
to do, she's looking to follow her nemesis on the other
side of the Atlantic, Donald Trump, and build a wall to break Scotland
But sadly, it will be the Scottish people who will end up paying
for that wall by poorer public services, closure of hospitals,
closure of schools, and less take-home pay in people's pay
packets because we know that Scotland benefits
Wales benefits from being part of the union, Northern Ireland
benefits from being part of the union, and the union
benefits from having Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland,
So surely that's a good recipe to hold together.
But aren't all those points you've just made equally
applicable to staying as part of the European Union?
Without fighting a referendum that's already been fought,
the points you have just made about Scotland being part
of the United Kingdom are equally applicable for the European Union.
No, you obviously didn't take any points on at all in the referendum.
We send, for every ?2 we send over to Brussels,
Scotland actually benefits from being in the union
It has four times the amount of trade with the United Kingdom
And ultimately, Europe, as I last looked, wasn't
The United Kingdom is a sovereign state.
We have control within these islands because we have parliaments
and assemblies that have democratically elected
Nicola Sturgeon, if you slam the door too loud in Whitehall,
What Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP should be doing is focusing
on improving education standards, health, and the economy
in Scotland which has all gone backwards under the SNP.
And what's dangerous here is that Plaid Cymru are trying to make
the same case here in Wales to break Wales from the union
Let's not forget, every vote in these local government elections
for Plaid Cymru will be a vote for nationalism
It will not be a vote for local services.
Looking at what will happen after Brexit, you will have seen
that Carwyn Jones has been saying there needs to be this
Constitutional Convention, there needs to be clearly set out
rules about how the United Kingdom works after Brexit.
Otherwise, he said, it could lead to trade wars.
I'm baffled by his pronunciation of trade wars.
I mean, the union of the United Kingdom has been
As I last looked at the Constitution, trade and industry
certainly wasn't devolved and international negotiations
But this is internal, a trade war between Wales and England.
He does have a point because the point I put forward
and at the time I was rubbished over, but it seems that people
seem to accept it now, is that we do need UK frameworks.
We need frameworks in agriculture, we need frameworks for HE, we need
So that all parts of the union can benefit from that money
And Wales mustn't lose out any money when it comes
And we will be working with colleagues in Westminster.
The biggest regret I have over Carwyn Jones is that he has not
reached out the hand of friendship and had a discussion with myself
and with other Brexiteers about how we can get a solid platform
in the negotiating round for Wales having a joint approach.
But Carwyn Jones didn't choose to do that.
He keeps moaning about the UK Government's response to him.
The UK Government is fully engaged with the devolved
governments and administrations and the Secretary of State
and the Prime Minister have had numerous meetings.
Regrettably Carwyn Jones is not practising what he
We mentioned earlier the local elections.
How do you think those are going to go?
A fairly disappointing set of results in 2012,
I don't think it's right to set targets in the media
as such, but what I can say is that we have a record number
of candidates looking to stand for us at these elections,
we will be standing in all 22 local authorities and we will be putting
Because ultimately if people want to see what Conservatives can
do in local government, they only need to look
at the Monmouthshire where we have run a very successful
administration, delivering quality public services
at an affordable price, getting the job done.
What communities can't afford is to have another five years
And the Conservatives will be fighting a positive campaign,
looking forward, looking up and looking at the horizon,
OK, those are the sound bites but what are the details?
What kind of offer will you be making?
The offer will be that we will deliver and maintain public services
that people value and cherish, like if that pothole outside your
house isn't being filled, we will get the roads fixed,
we will get the lights back on, we will reopen community
centres and above all, we will get playing fields
and parks people cherish back into the community.
Because we don't believe in dictating down to communities,
we believe in working with those communities.
Reopening playing fields, is that a manifesto...
I'm trying to get a sense from you what you will be offering
to people across Wales, you say you'll be reopening playing
fields, that will be a pledge for every council in Wales?
We'll be working with community to allow that to happen.
Because local government isn't a one size fits all,
there's 22 local authorities, what is right in one local authority
doesn't necessarily fit in another local authority.
The way you protect services in one area might be
totally different, say, from Cardiff, for example, a large
But what the Conservatives believe in, rather than saying,
we know best, and sitting in County Hall dictating
to communities, we want to work with communities so that we can
unleash that potential within those communities to keep the local
leisure centre open, to keep the library going,
to keep sports fields going, rather than just say,
you know what, it's easier for us to shut it.
That's been the approach to date and that's why people have
seen services disappear, services that communities
Andrew RT Davies there in buoyant mood.
That's it from me for another week, I hope we can look forward
to your company again next Sunday when we'll be hearing
from Welsh Labour at their conference in Llandudno.
Don't forget Twitter runs all the time.
you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.
So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament
Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think
And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?
Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week
Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is
too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor
would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a
position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four
days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not
be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,
a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,
he's also chairman of While being committed to one day
a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -
a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic
credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,
an American thinktank, And finally as a member
of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep
as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000
since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners
if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on
the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have
got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs
on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.
I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these
people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used
to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,
Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now
because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new
foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair
praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.
They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge
influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015
election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they
elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which
this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as
a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and
government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly
getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George
Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of
London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying
Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major
was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing
for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features
editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,
did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I
worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know
what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.
If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am
to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited
should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is
a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you
see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and
maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people
about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have
known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,
he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have
calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised
there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's
probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and
on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big
budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages
out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.
It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant
budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has
hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a
something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to
stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was
wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an
association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four
hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big
speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages
have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the
editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is
what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the
newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on
newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation
period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas
losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National
Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are
unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are
unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed
form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to
move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or
will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor
level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need
to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but
what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents
have been getting letters across the country in England about what this
will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a
matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and
Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the
new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more
disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are
going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already
struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller
fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,
adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is
an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the
Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy
companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so
good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put
a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was
obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the
Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap
on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus
much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this
translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That
bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the
Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time
where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that
government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in
the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy
consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in
fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of
implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of
Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk
the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about
managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the
lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and
in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just
about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut
their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We
don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that
could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There
has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and
not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory
MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of
continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's
on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs
to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of
Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government
is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you
could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a
malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,
so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics
would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff
to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the
way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You
are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been
calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite
some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to
sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly
ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in
Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial
windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I
mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling
businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having
saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point
being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those
first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions
taken. On that unusual agreement we will
leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at
noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One
next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,
it's the Sunday Politics. for families that have had
people pass away. There is a life out there
Andrew Neil and Arwyn Jones with the latest political news, interviews and debate.
As the NHS in England warns of a severe financial crisis, Andrew talks to Chris Hopson, head of NHS Providers. He is also joined by former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg MP and Labour Party campaign and elections chair Andrew Gwynne MP.
On the political panel are the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn and journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.