19/03/2017 Sunday Politics West


19/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:38.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:39.:00:42.

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:43.:00:55.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:56.:00:57.

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:00:58.:01:01.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:02.:01:05.

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:06.:01:09.

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:10.:01:12.

In the west, down on the farm, do Providers joins me live.

:01:13.:01:22.

In the west, down on the farm, do food producers know what leaving the

:01:23.:01:23.

EU really means or did All that to come before 12:15pm,

:01:24.:01:27.

and I'll also be talking to the former leader

:01:28.:01:37.

of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg from his party's spring

:01:38.:01:40.

conference in York. With me here in the studio,

:01:41.:01:42.

throughout the programme, three of the country's top political

:01:43.:01:47.

commentators: Tom Newton Dunn,

:01:48.:01:48.

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting their

:01:49.:01:54.

thoughts using #bbcsp. So, the political challenges facing

:01:55.:01:56.

Theresa May are stacking up. As well as negotiating

:01:57.:01:59.

Britain's exit from the EU, the PM must now deal with SNP

:02:00.:02:05.

demands for a second referendum on Scottish independence,

:02:06.:02:08.

backbenchers agitating against cuts to school budgets, and a humiliated

:02:09.:02:12.

Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key budget measure just one week

:02:13.:02:16.

after announcing it. Here's Adam Fleming

:02:17.:02:21.

on aturbulent political week Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather

:02:22.:02:22.

in the residence of the First Minister of Scotland,

:02:23.:02:39.

who's got a surprise. She wants a vote on whether Scotland

:02:40.:02:41.

should leave the UK By taking the steps I have set out

:02:42.:02:43.

today I am ensuring that Scotland's future will be decided,

:02:44.:02:48.

not just by me, the Scottish Government,

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or the SNP, it will be decided

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by the people of Scotland. Westminster, 6:25pm

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the same day, MPs reject amendments to the legislation

:02:55.:03:04.

authorising the Prime Minister to The Bill ceremonially heads

:03:05.:03:07.

to the Lords where peers abandoned attempts to change it

:03:08.:03:21.

and it becomes law. But Downing Street doesn't trigger

:03:22.:03:23.

Article 50 as many had expected. Some say they were spooked

:03:24.:03:30.

by Nicola Sturgeon. We get an e-mail from

:03:31.:03:33.

the Treasury can the We get an e-mail from

:03:34.:03:49.

the Treasury cancelling the planned rise in

:03:50.:03:51.

National Insurance for the self-employed

:03:52.:04:02.

announced the budget. It's just minutes before

:04:03.:04:04.

Prime Minister's Questions at noon. The trend towards greater

:04:05.:04:05.

self-employment does create a We will bring forward

:04:06.:04:08.

further proposals but we will not bring forward

:04:09.:04:10.

increases to NICs later in this It seems to me like a government

:04:11.:04:13.

in a bit of chaos here. By making this change today

:04:14.:04:17.

we are listening to our colleagues fulfil both the letter

:04:18.:04:20.

and the spirit of our manifesto tax Thursday, 7am, Conservative

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campaign HQ and the Electoral Commission fines the party

:04:25.:04:33.

?70,000 for misreporting spending But that's not what

:04:34.:04:36.

the Prime Minister Because at 12:19pm she

:04:37.:04:38.

gives her verdict on a We should be working

:04:39.:04:45.

together, not pulling apart. We should be working

:04:46.:04:50.

together to get that right deal for Scotland,

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that So, as I say, that's my job

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as Prime Minister and so for that reason I say to the SNP

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now is not the time. Friday and time for

:04:59.:05:01.

the faithful to gather. SNP activists at their

:05:02.:05:04.

spring conference Conservatives in Cardiff

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to hear the Prime Minister promote her plan for a more

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meritocratic Brexit Britain. At 11:10am comes some news

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about a newspaper that's frankly I'm thrilled and excited to be

:05:21.:05:22.

the new editor of The Evening Standard and,

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you know, with so many big issues in our world

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what good analysis, great news

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journalism. It's a really important time

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for good journalism that The Evening Standard

:05:39.:05:42.

is going to provide. There was no let-up yesterday

:05:43.:05:44.

as Gordon Brown launched proposals Under my proposals

:05:45.:05:51.

we keep the Barnett Formula, we keep the fiscal

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transfers, but we also bring the and fisheries back to the Scottish

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Parliament. And just think, all this and we're

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still counting down to the What a week in politics. It has been

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a torrid week for the government, Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa

:06:24.:06:27.

May shake it off, or is this a sign of worse to come? We may all be

:06:28.:06:31.

feeling a bit breathless after the events of last week and we are in

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for a a long war of attrition with the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy

:06:39.:06:42.

will be to foster over lengthy periods of time as much resentment

:06:43.:06:47.

and anger as she can in Scotland and try to create the impression that

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independence is somehow inevitable. Is Scotland the biggest challenge

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for Theresa May in the next year or so? I think it probably is because

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if you look at how relatively easily the Brexit bill went through on an

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issue where people could hardly feel more passionate in the Commons, and

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actually despite all the potential drama it has gone through quite

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smoothly. To go back to your original question, she just carries

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on. Don't underestimate the basic quiet and will towards Theresa May

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amongst the majority of Tory backbenchers. Yes, there are

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difficult little issues over school funding, sorry, it's not a little

:07:25.:07:28.

issue, it is a big one but she will get over that and treat each thing

:07:29.:07:33.

as it comes and keep pressing on. Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's

:07:34.:07:35.

Bluff in that the First Minister said I want a referendum, here is

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roughly when I wanted, the Prime Minister says you're not having one.

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What happens next? She has done quite well and impact the progress

:07:47.:07:50.

Theresa May made this week in frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was

:07:51.:07:54.

evident when Nicola Sturgeon said, OK, maybe we can talk about the

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timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has already been the first one to blink.

:07:58.:08:01.

I would slightly disagree with Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree

:08:02.:08:05.

Scotland will be the biggest hurdle for her. What this week showed as is

:08:06.:08:10.

Theresa May... It was a reality bites week. Theresa May is juggling

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four mammoth crises at the same time, Brexit obviously which I still

:08:15.:08:17.

think will be the biggest challenge to get a good deal, Trump left field

:08:18.:08:24.

who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and Scotland and the fiscal challenge,

:08:25.:08:28.

this enormous great problem, and it reinforced the point this is not an

:08:29.:08:35.

easy time in politics. The budget is over four years. That was one small

:08:36.:08:38.

problem, the immediate problem is how to fill the social care crisis

:08:39.:08:42.

and the ageing demographic. This is not normal times in British politics

:08:43.:08:45.

and Theresa May does not have a normal workload on her plate, hence

:08:46.:08:49.

why I think we will see more mistakes made as time goes on and as

:08:50.:08:53.

she has this almost impossible workload to juggle. How tempted do

:08:54.:08:59.

you think the Prime Minister is to call an early election? There is

:09:00.:09:03.

more chatter about it now. Is she tempted and if there is will she

:09:04.:09:07.

succumb? I will answer that in a second as Harold Wilson used to say.

:09:08.:09:10.

I want to agree, disagree with the rest of the panel about how she has

:09:11.:09:14.

out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this week. I think Nicola Sturgeon

:09:15.:09:19.

expected Theresa May to say no to her expected timetable. It would be

:09:20.:09:22.

amazing if she had said yes. She expected her to say no but Sturgeon

:09:23.:09:27.

catalyst that will fuel support for her cause. There is no sign of that.

:09:28.:09:34.

The latest poll this morning shows 66-44 against independence and only

:09:35.:09:37.

13% think they would be better off with an independent Scotland and a

:09:38.:09:42.

clear majority do not want a second referendum. But the calculation of

:09:43.:09:46.

resistance from Westminster combined with Brexit which hasn't started

:09:47.:09:49.

yet, I think this is her calculation, she didn't expect

:09:50.:09:53.

Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead, I'm sure she expected Theresa May to

:09:54.:09:58.

say no, you can't have it at your desired timetable. On the wider

:09:59.:10:02.

point, I think Theresa May is in a fascinating position, she is both

:10:03.:10:05.

strong because she faces weak opposition and is ahead in the

:10:06.:10:09.

opinion polls. But faces the most daunting agenda of any Prime

:10:10.:10:15.

Minister for 40 or 50 years, I think. So it's a weird combination.

:10:16.:10:19.

I don't think she wants to call an election. I don't think she has

:10:20.:10:22.

thought about how you would manipulate it, what the trigger

:10:23.:10:26.

would be, and whether she's got the energy and space to prepare for and

:10:27.:10:30.

then mount a campaign was beginning the Brexit negotiation. Now, you

:10:31.:10:35.

could see the cause would be the small majorities that will make her

:10:36.:10:40.

life hellish, which it will do. Whether a landslide would help is

:10:41.:10:44.

another question, they can be difficult too. But I think the

:10:45.:10:46.

problems outweigh the advantages of going early. Do you think she would

:10:47.:10:52.

go for an early election? I don't and I think you have to look at the

:10:53.:10:55.

rhetoric coming out of No 10 which is so firm on this question, it is a

:10:56.:10:59.

delicious prospect for us as commentators to think there might be

:11:00.:11:02.

an election around the corner but they are so firm on this I can't see

:11:03.:11:07.

it happening. I agree, we are in unanimous agreement on this one. It

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is superficially attractive because she would love the big majority and

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she would get a lot more through Parliament especially with Brexit.

:11:14.:11:17.

The nitty-gritty of it makes an early General Election this year

:11:18.:11:20.

almost impossible. How do you write a manifesto on high Brexit versus

:11:21.:11:26.

soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's box of uncertainties. And there is

:11:27.:11:31.

enough with the European elections. The EU will say are we negotiating

:11:32.:11:34.

with you or the person who may replace you? How do you keep the

:11:35.:11:37.

Tory party united going to an election? How do you call one, with

:11:38.:11:41.

a vote of no confidence in yourself you may end up losing. Easy on paper

:11:42.:11:45.

but difficult in practice. We shall see.

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So if Theresa May did go for an early election this spring,

:11:48.:11:49.

The party's campaigns and elections chief Andrew Gwynne

:11:50.:11:53.

Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we have just been talking about,

:11:54.:12:01.

executed one of the most embarrassing U-turns in recent

:12:02.:12:05.

history this week. It has been a torrid time for the Theresa May

:12:06.:12:09.

government. Why are the Tories still so chipper?

:12:10.:12:11.

The Labour Party has been on an early election footing since before

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Christmas and we are preparing ourselves for that eventuality in

:12:17.:12:20.

case that does come. That means that we've got to get ourselves into a

:12:21.:12:25.

position whereby we can not only challenge the government but we can

:12:26.:12:30.

also offer a valuable alternative for the British people to choose

:12:31.:12:36.

from should that election arise. So, would you welcome an early General

:12:37.:12:40.

Election? Well, of course, I don't want this government to be in power

:12:41.:12:43.

so of course if there is an opportunity to put a case to the

:12:44.:12:47.

British people as to why there is a better way, and I believe the Labour

:12:48.:12:51.

way is the better way than of course we would want to put that case to

:12:52.:12:55.

the country. So, would Labour vote in the Commons for an early

:12:56.:13:01.

election? Well, of course as an opposition, not wanting to be in

:13:02.:13:05.

opposition, wanting to be in government should the government put

:13:06.:13:10.

forward a measure in accordance with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then

:13:11.:13:13.

that's something we would very seriously have to consider. I know

:13:14.:13:16.

you would have to consider it but would you vote for an early election

:13:17.:13:20.

or not? Well, of course we want to be the government so if the current

:13:21.:13:24.

government puts forward measures to bring forward a General Election we

:13:25.:13:28.

would want to put our case to the British public and that's one of the

:13:29.:13:31.

jobs that I've been given, together Labour Party organisation early into

:13:32.:13:37.

a position where we can fight a General Election --

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organisationally. For the avoidance of doubt, if the Government work to

:13:42.:13:45.

issue a motion in the Commons for an early election, the Labour Party

:13:46.:13:49.

would vote for an early election? It would be very difficult not,

:13:50.:13:53.

Andrew. If the Government wants to dissolve parliament, wants a General

:13:54.:13:57.

Election, we don't want the Tories in government, we want to be in

:13:58.:14:00.

government and we want to have that opportunity to put that case to the

:14:01.:14:03.

British people. Are you ready for an early election?

:14:04.:14:12.

You say you have been on a war all but since the Labour conference last

:14:13.:14:15.

autumn, but are you ready for one? How big is the election fighting

:14:16.:14:17.

fund? We have substantial amounts of money in our fighting fund, that is

:14:18.:14:21.

true, because not only has the Labour Party managed to eliminate

:14:22.:14:28.

its own financial deficit that it inherited from previous election

:14:29.:14:32.

campaigns, we have also managed to build up a substantial fund in the

:14:33.:14:38.

off chance we have an election. We have also expanded massively

:14:39.:14:44.

operations at Labour HQ, we are taking on additional staff, and one

:14:45.:14:47.

of the jobs that myself and Ian Lavery who I job share with are

:14:48.:14:52.

currently doing is to go around the Parliamentary Labour Party to make

:14:53.:14:55.

sure that Labour colleagues have the support and the resources that they

:14:56.:15:00.

need, should they have to face the electorate in their constituencies.

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So you are on a war footing, ready for the fight, you say you would

:15:04.:15:07.

vote for the fight, so have you got your tax and spend policies ready to

:15:08.:15:13.

roll out? That is something the shadow Treasury team will be

:15:14.:15:16.

discussing. One of the things is, if there is an early General Election,

:15:17.:15:20.

the normal timetable for these things gets fast-track because our

:15:21.:15:25.

policy decision-making body, its annual conference, we have the

:15:26.:15:30.

national policy forum that creates policies suggestions. You have been

:15:31.:15:33.

on a war footing since the last Labour conference, that is what Mr

:15:34.:15:37.

Corbyn told us. So you must have a fair idea of what policies you would

:15:38.:15:42.

fight an early election on. How much extra per year would you spend on

:15:43.:15:46.

the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going to set out the Labour manifesto for

:15:47.:15:50.

an election that hasn't been called. I'm just asking you about the NHS.

:15:51.:15:55.

You must have a policy for that. We have a policy for the NHS. So how

:15:56.:16:01.

much extra? I will not set out Labour's tax-and-spend policies here

:16:02.:16:04.

on The Sunday Politics when there hasn't even been election called.

:16:05.:16:08.

You said you had been on a war footing and you are prepared to vote

:16:09.:16:13.

for one, so if you can't Tommy that, can you tell me what the corporation

:16:14.:16:17.

rate tax on company profits be under a Labour government -- tell me that.

:16:18.:16:25.

You will have to be patient. I have. And wait for Mrs May to trigger an

:16:26.:16:28.

early election. If there is an election on the 4th of May the rich

:16:29.:16:32.

would have to be issued on the 27th of March, so that's not long to

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wait. If that date passes we aren't having an election on the 4th of May

:16:38.:16:41.

and the normal timetable for policy development will continue. All

:16:42.:16:46.

right. You lost Copeland, I think you were in charge of a by-election

:16:47.:16:50.

for Labour, your national poll ratings are still dire, even after

:16:51.:16:56.

week of terrible times for the Tories. Sometimes you even lose

:16:57.:16:59.

local government by-elections in safe seats, including in the place

:17:00.:17:04.

you are now, in Salford. How long does Mr Corbyn have to turn this

:17:05.:17:09.

around? Well, look, the issue of the Labour leadership was settled last

:17:10.:17:13.

year. The last thing the Labour Party now needs is another period of

:17:14.:17:16.

introspection with the Labour Party merely talks to the Labour Party. We

:17:17.:17:23.

are now on an election footing in case Mrs May does trigger an early

:17:24.:17:27.

General Election. We need to be talking to the British people are

:17:28.:17:32.

not to ourselves. So any speculation about the Labour leadership might

:17:33.:17:37.

excite you in the media but actually for us in the Labour Party it's

:17:38.:17:41.

about re-engaging and reconnecting with the voters. Rather than being

:17:42.:17:45.

excited, I feel quite daunted at the prospect of an early election. So I

:17:46.:17:50.

wouldn't get that right. Normally, given the number of mistakes this

:17:51.:17:55.

government has made, and its mid-term, you would expect any

:17:56.:17:57.

self-respecting opposition to be about ten points ahead. On the

:17:58.:18:02.

latest polls this morning you are 17 behind. There is a 27-30 point gap

:18:03.:18:09.

from where you should normally be as an opposition. Are you telling me

:18:10.:18:12.

that if that doesn't change, you still fight the General Election

:18:13.:18:13.

with Mr Corbyn? These are matters for the future. I

:18:14.:18:23.

believe the leadership issue was settled last year. We have had two

:18:24.:18:29.

leadership contest in two years. Would you seriously contemplate

:18:30.:18:34.

going into the next election, if it is early I perfectly understand

:18:35.:18:38.

Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it is not until 2020, and you are still

:18:39.:18:43.

17 points behind in the polls, will you go into the next election like

:18:44.:18:48.

that? There is a lot of future looking and speculation there, I

:18:49.:18:57.

don't know what the future holds, where the Labour Party will be in 12

:18:58.:19:00.

months let alone by 2020 summit cross those bridges when we come to

:19:01.:19:02.

it. My main challenge is to make sure the Labour Party is in the best

:19:03.:19:06.

possible place organisationally to fight an election, that's my

:19:07.:19:09.

challenge and I'm up for that to make sure we are in the best

:19:10.:19:12.

possible place to make sure Labour returns as many Labour MPs as

:19:13.:19:17.

possible. Thank you for joining us. And we're joined now

:19:18.:19:23.

from the Liberal Democrats' spring conference in York by the former

:19:24.:19:25.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. Good morning. In his conference

:19:26.:19:34.

speech today, Tim Farron lumps Theresa May with Vladimir Putin,

:19:35.:19:38.

Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In what way is Mrs May similar to

:19:39.:19:48.

Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not saying Theresa May is identical to

:19:49.:19:51.

Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim Wilby spelling out shortly in his

:19:52.:19:57.

speech is that we need to be aware what's going on in the world, the

:19:58.:19:59.

International settlement that was arrived at after the First World --

:20:00.:20:10.

Second World War, that bound supranational organisations is under

:20:11.:20:15.

attack from characters as diverse as Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and

:20:16.:20:19.

Donald Trump, and that by side in so ostentatiously with Donald Trump and

:20:20.:20:23.

pursuing this very hard Brexit, Theresa May appears to be giving

:20:24.:20:28.

succour to that much more isolationist chauvinist view of the

:20:29.:20:32.

world than the multilateral approach that Britain has subscribed to for a

:20:33.:20:38.

long time. The exact words he plans to use are welcome to the New World

:20:39.:20:44.

order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Theresa May,

:20:45.:20:50.

aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU, nationalistic. In what way is Mrs

:20:51.:20:56.

May fitting into any of that? In what way is she similar to Vladimir

:20:57.:21:01.

Putin? I'm not aware she has interfered with other people's

:21:02.:21:06.

elections. The clue is in the quote you just read out, which is the

:21:07.:21:12.

world order. The world order over the last half century or more, by

:21:13.:21:16.

the way a lesson I'm afraid we have to learn in Europe because of the

:21:17.:21:20.

terrible bloodshed of two world was in the space of a few decades, was

:21:21.:21:25.

based on the idea might is not right. Strong arm leaders cannot

:21:26.:21:29.

throw their weight around. What we have now with Putin, the populism

:21:30.:21:37.

across parts of Europe and Donald Trump who thinks the EU will unravel

:21:38.:21:43.

is a shift to a radically different view of the world. Mrs May doesn't

:21:44.:21:49.

think any of that. She is not antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she

:21:50.:21:53.

wants the EU to succeed. She's not aggressive as far as I'm aware so

:21:54.:21:58.

I'm not sure why you would lump the British Prime Minister in with these

:21:59.:22:06.

other characters. Let me explain, by choosing this uncompromising

:22:07.:22:10.

approach to Brexit, clearly in doing so she, in my view, maybe not yours

:22:11.:22:16.

or others, is pursuing a self harming approach to the United

:22:17.:22:20.

Kingdom but also pulling up the threads that bind the rest of the

:22:21.:22:26.

European Union together, in so ostentatiously siding with Donald

:22:27.:22:30.

Trump, somehow declaring in my view speciously that we can make up with

:22:31.:22:39.

the trade we will lose, she's not challenging the shift to a more

:22:40.:22:42.

chauvinist approach to world affairs that is happening in many places.

:22:43.:22:47.

You are at your party's Spring conference, I think we can agree any

:22:48.:22:52.

Lib Dem come back will take a long time. Would Tory dominance be more

:22:53.:22:59.

effectively challenged by a realignment of the centre and the

:23:00.:23:01.

centre-left? Are you working towards that? I missed half the question but

:23:02.:23:07.

I think you are talking about a realignment. As a cook a way to get

:23:08.:23:14.

over Tory dominance, would you want that to happen? Are you working

:23:15.:23:20.

towards that? My view is the recovery of the Lib Dems will be

:23:21.:23:23.

quicker than you suggest. People often forget that even the low point

:23:24.:23:28.

of our fortunes in the last election we still got a million more votes

:23:29.:23:32.

than the SNP, it's only because we have got this crazy electoral

:23:33.:23:41.

system... But the SNP fight in Scotland, you fight in the whole

:23:42.:23:47.

country! But I'm saying the way seats are allocated overlooks the

:23:48.:23:55.

fact that 2.5 million still voted for us. But my own view is of course

:23:56.:23:59.

there are people feeling increasingly homeless in the liberal

:24:00.:24:03.

wing of the Conservative Party because they are now in a party

:24:04.:24:07.

which is in effect indistinguishable from Ukip on some of the biggest

:24:08.:24:14.

issues of the day, and homeless folk on the rational, reasonable wing of

:24:15.:24:17.

the Labour Party. I would invite them to join the Liberal Democrats

:24:18.:24:21.

and I would invite everyone across parties to talk about the idea is

:24:22.:24:26.

that bind us because the Westminster village can invest a lot of energy

:24:27.:24:31.

building new castles in the sky, inventing new names for parties when

:24:32.:24:34.

actually what you want is for people on the progressive centre ground of

:24:35.:24:41.

British politics to talk about the ideas that unite them, from the

:24:42.:24:49.

dilemmas of artificial intelligence to climate change. Do you think in

:24:50.:24:55.

your own view, can Brexit still be thwarted or is it now a matter of

:24:56.:25:03.

getting the best terms? I think we are in an interlude, almost a calm

:25:04.:25:07.

between two storms, the storm of the referendum itself and the collision

:25:08.:25:12.

between the Government's stated ambitions for Brexit and the reality

:25:13.:25:16.

of having to negotiate something unworkable with 27 other

:25:17.:25:21.

governments. The one thing I can guarantee you is that what the

:25:22.:25:24.

Government has promised to the British people cannot happen. Over a

:25:25.:25:37.

slower period of time we will work out our new relationship with the

:25:38.:25:41.

European Union. Theresa May said she will settle divorce arrangements,

:25:42.:25:48.

and pensions, so one, negotiate new trade agreements, new climate change

:25:49.:25:52.

policies and so on, and have all of that ratified within two years, that

:25:53.:25:55.

will not happen so I think there will be a lot of turbulence in the

:25:56.:26:01.

next couple of years. Will you use this turbulence to try to thwart

:26:02.:26:06.

Brexit, to find a way of rolling back the decision? It's not about

:26:07.:26:12.

repeating the debates of the past or thwarting the will of the people but

:26:13.:26:16.

it is comparing what people were promised from the ?350 million for

:26:17.:26:21.

the NHS every week through to this glittering array of new trade

:26:22.:26:27.

agreements we will sign across the world, with the reality that will

:26:28.:26:31.

transpire in the next couple of years and at that point, yes it is

:26:32.:26:35.

my belief people should be able to take a second look at if that is

:26:36.:26:40.

what they really want. A couple of quick questions, would you welcome

:26:41.:26:49.

an early general election? I always welcome them, we couldn't do worse

:26:50.:26:54.

than we did last time. That is certainly true. You have a column in

:26:55.:26:58.

the Evening Standard, have you spoken to the new editor about

:26:59.:27:02.

whether he will keep your column or spike it? No, I wait in nervous

:27:03.:27:11.

anticipation. Can you be a newspaper editor in the morning and an MP in

:27:12.:27:17.

the afternoon? Do I think that's feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit.

:27:18.:27:22.

There is no prohibition, no law against MPs being editors. They have

:27:23.:27:28.

been in the past and no doubt will again in the future. He is taking a

:27:29.:27:35.

lot on, he is an editor, also wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting

:27:36.:27:40.

academic in the States, working in the city, I suspect something will

:27:41.:27:45.

give. It seems to me even by his self-confidence standards in his own

:27:46.:27:49.

abilities I suspect he is taking on a little bit too much. Very

:27:50.:27:54.

diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you will get to keep the column. Thanks

:27:55.:27:56.

for joining us. Now, for the last six months

:27:57.:28:01.

England's NHS bosses have been warning the health service needs

:28:02.:28:03.

more money to help it meet But in his first Budget,

:28:04.:28:06.

the Chancellor offered no immediate relief,

:28:07.:28:09.

and today the head of the organisation representing

:28:10.:28:11.

England's NHS trusts says hundreds of thousands of patients will have

:28:12.:28:13.

to wait longer for both emergency care and planned operations,

:28:14.:28:16.

unless the Government Warnings over funding

:28:17.:28:17.

are not exactly new. Back in 2014 the head of the NHS

:28:18.:28:25.

in England, Simon Stevens, published his plan for the future

:28:26.:28:28.

of the health service. In his five-year forward view,

:28:29.:28:32.

Stevens said the NHS in England would face a funding shortfall of up

:28:33.:28:35.

to ?30 billion by 2020. To bridge that gap he said the NHS

:28:36.:28:38.

would need more money from the Government,

:28:39.:28:41.

at least ?8 billion extra, and that the health service

:28:42.:28:45.

could account for the rest by making The Government says it's given

:28:46.:28:48.

the health service more than what it asked for, and that NHS

:28:49.:28:55.

in England will have received That number is disputed by NHS

:28:56.:28:57.

managers and the chair of Parliament's health committee,

:28:58.:29:03.

who say the figure is more like ?4.5 billion, while other parts

:29:04.:29:05.

of the health and social care budget have been cut, putting

:29:06.:29:08.

pressure on the front line. Last year, two thirds of NHS

:29:09.:29:14.

trusts in England finished the year in the red,

:29:15.:29:17.

and despite emergency bailouts from the Government,

:29:18.:29:20.

the NHS is likely to record Meanwhile national targets

:29:21.:29:22.

on waiting times for A departments, diagnostic tests,

:29:23.:29:27.

and operations are being This month's Budget provided

:29:28.:29:29.

?2 billion for social care but there was no new cash

:29:30.:29:37.

for the NHS, leading trusts to warn that patient care is beginning

:29:38.:29:41.

to suffer, and what is being asked And I'm joined now by

:29:42.:29:44.

the Chief Executive of NHS Providers in England,

:29:45.:29:50.

Chris Hopson. Welcome to the programme. Morning,

:29:51.:30:00.

Andrew. I will come onto the extra money you need to do your job

:30:01.:30:04.

properly in a minute but first, part of the deal was you had to make 22

:30:05.:30:08.

billion in efficiency savings, not a bank that money but spend it on

:30:09.:30:12.

patient care, the front line, and so on. How is that going? So, last

:30:13.:30:17.

parliament we realised around 18 billion of productivity and

:30:18.:30:20.

efficiency savings, we are realising more this year so we are on course

:30:21.:30:25.

to realise 3 billion this year, that is a quarter of a billion more than

:30:26.:30:29.

last year but all of us in the NHS knew the 22 billion would be a very

:30:30.:30:33.

stretching target and we are somewhat inevitably falling short.

:30:34.:30:38.

So it is 22 billion by 2,020. Roughly. That was the time. We are

:30:39.:30:49.

now into 2017. So how much of the 22 billion have you achieved? We

:30:50.:30:52.

realised around 3 billion last year and we will realise 3 billion this

:30:53.:30:57.

year, Court of billion more, 3.25 billion this year, so we are on

:30:58.:31:02.

course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the 2021 period? You are not that far

:31:03.:31:07.

away. The problem is the degree to which demand is going up. We have

:31:08.:31:11.

record demand over the winter period and that actually meant we have seen

:31:12.:31:16.

more people than we have ever seen before but performance is still

:31:17.:31:19.

under real pressure. Let me come onto that. When you agreed on the 22

:31:20.:31:25.

billion efficiency savings plus some extra money from the government, I

:31:26.:31:29.

know there is a bit of an argument about how much that is actually

:31:30.:31:34.

worth, had you not factored in this extra demand that you saw coming

:31:35.:31:40.

over the next three or four years? Let's be very clear committee

:31:41.:31:44.

referred to Simon Stevens's forward view and we signed up to it but the

:31:45.:31:49.

22 billion was a process run at the centre of government by the

:31:50.:31:51.

Department of Health with its arms length bodies, NHS England and

:31:52.:31:55.

others and is not something that was consulted on with the NHS. But you

:31:56.:32:00.

signed up to it. We always said that the day that that Spending Review

:32:01.:32:05.

was announced, the idea that the NHS where customer demand goes up

:32:06.:32:08.

something like four or 5% every year, the idea that in the middle

:32:09.:32:12.

years of Parliament we would be able to provide the same level of service

:32:13.:32:16.

when we were only getting funding increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%,

:32:17.:32:23.

and I can show you the press release we issued, we always said there was

:32:24.:32:26.

going to be a gap and that we would not be able to deliver what was

:32:27.:32:30.

required. The full 22 billion in other words? What we said to Simon

:32:31.:32:36.

Stevens at the Public Accounts Committee a few months ago, the NHS

:32:37.:32:41.

didn't get what it was asked for. Today the NHS, cope with the

:32:42.:32:46.

resources it has according to you. How much more does it need? Are

:32:47.:32:52.

reported is about 2017-18 and we estimate that what we are being

:32:53.:32:56.

asked to do, and again, Andrew, you clearly set it out in the package,

:32:57.:33:00.

we are a long way off the four-hour A target and a long way off the

:33:01.:33:05.

92%. The waiting times and operations. How much more do you

:33:06.:33:10.

need? And we are making up a ?900 million deficit. If you take all of

:33:11.:33:13.

those into account we estimate you would need an extra ?3.5 billion

:33:14.:33:18.

next year in order to deliver all of those targets and eliminate the

:33:19.:33:23.

deficit. That would be 3.5 billion on top of what is already planned

:33:24.:33:27.

next year and that would be 3.5 billion repeated in the years to

:33:28.:33:31.

come too? Yes, Andrew it is important we should make an

:33:32.:33:34.

important distinction about the NHS versus other public services. When

:33:35.:33:40.

the last government, the last Labour government put extra money into the

:33:41.:33:43.

NHS it clearly said that in return for that it would establish some

:33:44.:33:48.

standards in the NHS Constitution, the 95% A target we have talked

:33:49.:33:52.

about and the 92% elective surgery we have talked about. The trust we

:33:53.:33:56.

represent are very clear, they would want to realise those standards, but

:33:57.:34:00.

you can only do it if you pay for it. The problem is at the moment is

:34:01.:34:04.

we are in the longest and deepest financial squeeze in NHS history. As

:34:05.:34:09.

we have said, funding is only going up by 1% per year but every year

:34:10.:34:13.

just to stand still cost and demand go up by more than 4%. There is

:34:14.:34:19.

clearly a demand for more money. I think people watching this programme

:34:20.:34:23.

will think probably the NHS is going to have to get more money to meet

:34:24.:34:26.

the goals you have been given. I think they would also like to be

:34:27.:34:31.

sure that your Mac running the NHS as efficiently as it could be. We

:34:32.:34:36.

read this morning that trusts have got ?100 million of empty properties

:34:37.:34:40.

that cost 10 million to maintain, 36 office blocks are not being used,

:34:41.:34:45.

you have surplus land equivalent to 1800 football pitches. Yes, there

:34:46.:34:49.

are a number of things that we know in the NHS we need to do better but

:34:50.:34:55.

let me remind you, Andrew, in the last Parliament we realised ?18

:34:56.:34:59.

billion worth of cost improvement gains. We are going to realise

:35:00.:35:04.

another 3 billion this year, 0.25 billion more than last year so these

:35:05.:35:09.

things are being targeted. But having that surplus land, it is

:35:10.:35:12.

almost certainly in areas where there is a demand for housing.

:35:13.:35:18.

Absolutely. So why not release it for housing? You get the money, the

:35:19.:35:22.

people get their houses and its contribution and a signal that you

:35:23.:35:25.

are running NHS assets as efficiently as you can? Tell me if

:35:26.:35:30.

I'm going to too much detail for you. One of the reasons as to why

:35:31.:35:35.

our trusts are reluctant to realise those land sales is because there is

:35:36.:35:38.

an assumption that the money would go back to the Treasury and wouldn't

:35:39.:35:43.

benefit NHS trusts. You could make a deal, couldn't you? That's part of

:35:44.:35:47.

the conversation going on at the moment. The issue is that we would

:35:48.:35:51.

want to ensure that if we do release land, quite rightly the benefit,

:35:52.:35:54.

particularly in foundation trusts which are, as you will remember,

:35:55.:36:06.

deliberately autonomous organisations, that they should keep

:36:07.:36:08.

the benefit of those land sales. Have you raised that with the

:36:09.:36:09.

government? Yes we have. What did they say? They

:36:10.:36:20.

are in discussions of it. We heard somebody who moved from one job and

:36:21.:36:24.

then to another job and given a big salary and then almost ?200,000 as a

:36:25.:36:28.

payoff. There is a national mood for the NHS to get more money. But

:36:29.:36:32.

before you give anybody any more money you want to be sure that the

:36:33.:36:36.

money you have got already is being properly spent, which for us, is the

:36:37.:36:40.

patient at the end of the day. And yet there seem to be these enormous

:36:41.:36:44.

salaries and payoffs. I've worked in a FTSE 100 on the board of Her

:36:45.:36:52.

Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I have worked in large organisations.

:36:53.:36:54.

I can look you completely straight in the eye and tell you that the

:36:55.:36:58.

jobs that our hospital, community, mental health and ambulance chief

:36:59.:37:01.

Executives do are amongst the most complicated leadership roles I have

:37:02.:37:05.

ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable that in order to get

:37:06.:37:08.

the right quality of people we should pay an appropriate salary.

:37:09.:37:12.

The reality is the salaries are paid are not excessive when talking about

:37:13.:37:17.

managing budgets of over ?1 billion a year and talking about managing

:37:18.:37:20.

tens of thousands of staff. There was a doctor working as a locum that

:37:21.:37:28.

earned an extra ?375,000. One of the problems in the NHS is a mismatch

:37:29.:37:31.

between the number of staff we need and the number of staff coming

:37:32.:37:34.

through the pipeline. What is having to happen is if you want to keep a

:37:35.:37:40.

service going you have to use Mackem and agency staff. Even at that cost?

:37:41.:37:43.

You would not want to pay those amounts. But you are. The chief

:37:44.:37:49.

Executives's choice in those areas is giving the service open or

:37:50.:37:53.

employing a locum. I'm sure you could find a locum prepared to work

:37:54.:37:58.

for less than that. What indication, what hopes do you have of getting

:37:59.:38:04.

the extra ?3 billion? The government has been very clear, for the moment

:38:05.:38:08.

it wants to stick to the existing funding settlement it has agreed. So

:38:09.:38:13.

there was nothing in the budget. Can I finish by making one important

:38:14.:38:18.

point. Please, finish. This is the first time the NHS has said before

:38:19.:38:22.

the year has even started that we can't deliver on those standards. We

:38:23.:38:27.

believe, as do most people who work in the NHS, that the NHS is on a

:38:28.:38:32.

gradual slow decline. This is a very important inflection point to Mark,

:38:33.:38:35.

this is the first time before the financial year starts that we say we

:38:36.:38:38.

cannot meet the targets we are being asked to deliver and are in the NHS

:38:39.:38:43.

Constitution. We have run out of time. Chris Hopson, thank you for

:38:44.:38:45.

being with me. It's just gone 11:35am,

:38:46.:38:46.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:47.:38:48.

in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to the Sunday

:38:49.:39:00.

politics here in the lovely west of As advice services for new

:39:01.:39:03.

disability payments are cut, we ask whether people can still get

:39:04.:39:14.

the help they need. With me to discuss it are two

:39:15.:39:16.

politicians full of the joys of spring, they are Taunton's

:39:17.:39:27.

Conservative MP Rebecca Pow and But first the starting gun on Brexit

:39:28.:39:29.

is due to be fired at the end of this month and it's hard to

:39:30.:39:36.

think of a group with more at stake Many voted out because they don't

:39:37.:39:40.

like the red tape from Brussels, yet they also rely

:39:41.:39:44.

heavily on EU subsidies. Can they survive

:39:45.:39:46.

without all that money? A place where the bottom

:39:47.:39:51.

line does the talking. Deals are struck in

:39:52.:40:01.

the blink of an eye It is a lightning speed that Brexit

:40:02.:40:06.

negotiators could never match. It means our future

:40:07.:40:13.

in Europe is still farmers some sheep farmers

:40:14.:40:15.

get about half their subsidies from the EU,

:40:16.:40:19.

so Brexit really matters here. They have been told

:40:20.:40:21.

the current system stays in place until 2020

:40:22.:40:23.

and after that, well? Without the subsidies,

:40:24.:40:29.

there wouldn't be any farming. You couldn't sustain

:40:30.:40:34.

your business on We could do with more

:40:35.:40:35.

money, couldn't we? Do you think you'll

:40:36.:40:38.

get it outside of I don't think anybody

:40:39.:40:40.

knows, do they? Not everybody was keen on generous

:40:41.:40:51.

subsidies are continuing. They pointed to New Zealand where

:40:52.:40:53.

all subsidies were removed 30 years We are going to see it

:40:54.:40:56.

fade away I think over the next two years,

:40:57.:41:00.

but it will be probably more

:41:01.:41:01.

environmentally led. There will be more

:41:02.:41:03.

environmental-based subsidy But this Government has got

:41:04.:41:14.

a lot of other money to spend it on, it is not just

:41:15.:41:18.

agriculture, the NHS and all these other areas of income

:41:19.:41:21.

as they are going to start picking away at those farming

:41:22.:41:23.

subsidies, I'm afraid. Will this Government

:41:24.:41:25.

continue to back This week at PMQs,

:41:26.:41:27.

to reserve may offer what assurances she could over

:41:28.:41:32.

the future of agriculture. We do have a duty to

:41:33.:41:35.

the food and farming industry when we leave

:41:36.:41:45.

the European union, We've already provided guarantees

:41:46.:41:47.

the support for farmers up to 2020 and I can

:41:48.:41:50.

assure her that we will continue But concerns still linger both

:41:51.:41:53.

in farming and in the food You'll find the world's oldest

:41:54.:41:56.

cheddar cheese manufacturer just outside of Shepton

:41:57.:41:59.

Mallett in Somerset. They've been separating the curds

:42:00.:42:05.

from the whey here for They are worried that

:42:06.:42:08.

Brexit might cost them their protected status that they now

:42:09.:42:10.

proudly display on their products. These are our best-selling

:42:11.:42:23.

products over in the US, These are our best-selling products

:42:24.:42:26.

over in the US, for example. Each cheese has been certified

:42:27.:42:29.

official West Country Farmhouse Cheddar

:42:30.:42:31.

under an EU scheme. It is called products of designated

:42:32.:42:32.

origin, PDO for short, To qualify, your Cheddar must hail

:42:33.:42:35.

from the west, be mature for at least nine months and use at least

:42:36.:42:40.

some elements of traditional practices like this, a process known

:42:41.:42:43.

as Cheddaring the cheese. They are currently trying

:42:44.:42:45.

to tempt the Indian market with these West Country

:42:46.:42:47.

wares, but the potential loss of their PDO status due to Brexit

:42:48.:42:50.

could cost them dearly. If we were not a carrier

:42:51.:42:52.

of the PDO, then a number of consumers abroad

:42:53.:42:55.

probably would miss it. And certainly would

:42:56.:42:57.

start asking questions as to why the product

:42:58.:42:58.

was I think in particular

:42:59.:42:59.

where we're challenging for new markets, and trying

:43:00.:43:03.

to explain our product to new markets, it really does help give us

:43:04.:43:07.

a guarantee of authenticity when we're out there talking to people

:43:08.:43:10.

who don't understand it otherwise. Brexit negotiations have much

:43:11.:43:13.

to consider overcoming days are protecting the proud name of West

:43:14.:43:16.

Country Cheddar is just one more Let's talk about some

:43:17.:43:19.

of those issues. There is evidence that lots

:43:20.:43:25.

of farmers voted for Brexit, much of They might be asking

:43:26.:43:28.

themselves that now, but categorically, a lot of people

:43:29.:43:41.

in the agriculture industry weren't And indeed, we had to

:43:42.:43:43.

fit in with 27 other countries, now we have

:43:44.:43:47.

the opportunity to have a whole rethink

:43:48.:43:48.

on how we manage and run our land. That I think could end up

:43:49.:43:51.

being very beneficial. Of course, the devil will be

:43:52.:43:59.

in the detail and how they But they understand if they do not

:44:00.:44:02.

get an agreement with trading with the rest of the EU,

:44:03.:44:07.

then tariffs could be what? There is a lot of feeding

:44:08.:44:10.

in and negotiating going on at the moment within our own country,

:44:11.:44:14.

a lot of consultation is going on behind-the-scenes with Defra

:44:15.:44:17.

and indeed a Green paper will be launched shortly where people can

:44:18.:44:20.

properly feed in their ideas. But we export ?11

:44:21.:44:23.

billion of agricultural produce, but we import ?28 billion

:44:24.:44:25.

of agricultural produce on the EU, so we are a terribly

:44:26.:44:29.

important market. We are a very important

:44:30.:44:31.

market in the EU for food and drink

:44:32.:44:38.

and agricultural products. So I know that certainly

:44:39.:44:40.

lots of bodies like the NFU and the CLA

:44:41.:44:42.

want the situation to Not to have tariffs

:44:43.:44:45.

imposed on either side. Is certainly think if it is possible

:44:46.:44:48.

to achieve that kind of Clare, the subsidies

:44:49.:44:51.

that farmers get, Government has guaranteed

:44:52.:44:55.

that they will continue to get those subsidies from the British taxpayer

:44:56.:44:59.

for a Do you see that being

:45:00.:45:01.

a priority as time goes by? That is part of the

:45:02.:45:04.

problem that one of the concerns, one of the many concerns

:45:05.:45:09.

that we have got about what does Brexit look like, what shape is it,

:45:10.:45:12.

because the one thing that the common agricultural policy does

:45:13.:45:17.

is provide predictability and But just last week you saw

:45:18.:45:18.

that the Treasury can make an announcement one week

:45:19.:45:26.

and reverse it the next. What it said in terms of promises

:45:27.:45:29.

to the industry with what funding is going to be available

:45:30.:45:32.

isn't guaranteed for seven years. It is barely guaranteed for a week

:45:33.:45:43.

seemingly, at the moment. Would it be a good

:45:44.:45:46.

idea if the subsidies actually went as they

:45:47.:45:48.

have in New Zealand? One thing I wanted to say was that

:45:49.:45:50.

I think they're's going to be much more of a proviso looking

:45:51.:45:53.

at what public goods do you get for Is it paying for services

:45:54.:45:57.

of food production? Is it paying for looking

:45:58.:46:04.

after our land and Having ground for walking

:46:05.:46:06.

on all wild birds? Those environmental areas

:46:07.:46:09.

will be interwoven with the food production sections and that

:46:10.:46:12.

could be all to the good. But we have got to also

:46:13.:46:15.

factor in the rural It is not just about food production

:46:16.:46:18.

or land for the public to use as amenity, we have also got

:46:19.:46:23.

to bear in mind that a lot of the European funding was for

:46:24.:46:27.

supporting rural communities. We have got to factor

:46:28.:46:29.

in how important we think So they lose that, they have

:46:30.:46:31.

got a guarantee they will get it from us for a while,

:46:32.:46:35.

but not indefinitely. The Government has committed

:46:36.:46:37.

to funding until 2020 and certainly there is going

:46:38.:46:40.

to be no cliff edges. We have heard that from Theresa May

:46:41.:46:42.

and from David Davis. There might be a couple

:46:43.:46:44.

of fences though. How do we know there

:46:45.:46:48.

are no cliff edges? Because we have got a whole

:46:49.:46:50.

population to support and this People like me will be

:46:51.:46:53.

fighting for it down And indeed we have got our

:46:54.:46:57.

25 year plan for food and farming coming forward

:46:58.:47:01.

and our environment plan. Subsidising a millionaire

:47:02.:47:03.

farmer isn't going to be at the top of the agenda

:47:04.:47:05.

for most governments? That is why my point about services

:47:06.:47:07.

for public good will And those things are

:47:08.:47:10.

going to be factored in. After all, the farmers are the ones

:47:11.:47:16.

who manage the land. This isn't about

:47:17.:47:19.

criticising the farmers. This is about what predictability

:47:20.:47:26.

Government will provide. It is also another thing

:47:27.:47:29.

that was touched on there, the point about the exports

:47:30.:47:33.

that our industry have, but also imports that would

:47:34.:47:35.

come from elsewhere. At the moment, there are limits

:47:36.:47:44.

of the amounts that can be imported into compete with British

:47:45.:47:46.

farmers from outside the EU. The first thing that

:47:47.:47:49.

comes out in trade We have got very high standards

:47:50.:47:51.

of agricultural produce within the So if there was a trade

:47:52.:47:59.

deal say with the United States, we might well

:48:00.:48:03.

have do except GM crops Or chlorinated chicken,

:48:04.:48:05.

all of those is what the US will be wanting

:48:06.:48:08.

to put on their side. The land that comes

:48:09.:48:11.

in from New Zealand or any of these Secondly, it is the regulatory

:48:12.:48:14.

burden that will come in Hang on, we were told that

:48:15.:48:17.

if we left the EU, all the One thing I will say is that we have

:48:18.:48:22.

also set up the Great British Food Unit and actually

:48:23.:48:28.

we are increasing our food and drink I mean, we are our greatest and most

:48:29.:48:31.

expanding the market. Just one second, if we

:48:32.:48:43.

lose the EU protection for the names on our products like

:48:44.:48:45.

West Country Cheddar, for example, which could happen, then it could be

:48:46.:48:48.

Cheddar made in Poland. I was talking to farm

:48:49.:48:51.

Minister George Eustis about this very week

:48:52.:48:56.

and there is a lot of work going on to keep our protected

:48:57.:48:59.

status for the products that are already protected

:49:00.:49:01.

likely Cheddar cheese that we saw... Because that is all to do

:49:02.:49:03.

with our quality and our standards. How do you stop a farmer

:49:04.:49:07.

from Poland saying this is Because we will have

:49:08.:49:11.

our own legislation but they could sell it in America,

:49:12.:49:14.

couldn't they? No, we already have a good

:49:15.:49:19.

reputation on the world market for That is why the Chinese

:49:20.:49:21.

are coming after us in droves to get hold of everything

:49:22.:49:27.

for the afternoon teas. Outside the UK and how do

:49:28.:49:30.

you actually make sure that our produce can be sold into the EU

:49:31.:49:42.

if we are outside of the... If Brexit is a hard

:49:43.:49:45.

Brexit, which is a real or wrong, those

:49:46.:49:48.

who voted for Brexit? Because my dad always used to say,

:49:49.:49:52.

you fall out of that tree, don't come running to me

:49:53.:49:55.

with a broken leg. They voted for out,

:49:56.:49:57.

don't come and complain We have got to make

:49:58.:50:00.

it work now, yes. Down at the market, you are saying,

:50:01.:50:04.

are you sure you were right that We will try and look

:50:05.:50:07.

after them, won't we? The Government's new disability

:50:08.:50:13.

benefit is rarely out of the news. That is because the test

:50:14.:50:16.

to get a personal independence payment,

:50:17.:50:18.

PIP, it's called, is much more difficult

:50:19.:50:19.

than it used to be and the help to OK, love, well I'll see

:50:20.:50:23.

you when you get back. Sarah has fibromyalgia

:50:24.:50:37.

and a neurological And for first time

:50:38.:50:39.

in 18 months, she can I can get out on the bus,

:50:40.:50:43.

I can take the kids out to the park. What a contrast from

:50:44.:50:55.

last year when I first Her disability benefit PIP had just

:50:56.:51:00.

been cut and she was fighting to get it

:51:01.:51:06.

back at a tribunal. It was very scary and it

:51:07.:51:17.

made me hit rock bottom. It was a massive weight

:51:18.:51:20.

and thinking that you're not going to win or you're

:51:21.:51:22.

not going to get the help that you The extra money brought

:51:23.:51:25.

the chair and peace of mind. I did cry when they told

:51:26.:51:33.

me and I did think it The impact that it

:51:34.:51:36.

has had on me and the children, because they see me

:51:37.:51:40.

getting the help, they are not so worried now and they see me

:51:41.:51:43.

smiling a lot more. Figures seen by the BBC show that

:51:44.:51:45.

that tough journey is The vast majority of people

:51:46.:51:48.

in the Bristol area one there And you've got more

:51:49.:51:51.

chance of winning Trying to claim it

:51:52.:51:56.

on your own by yourself is DWP are asking for a lot more

:51:57.:52:03.

evidence to be able to If you are claiming that

:52:04.:52:07.

by yourself, quite often you don't understand what that evidence

:52:08.:52:12.

could look like or how to obtain it. But is this help

:52:13.:52:14.

and support now under We have been told

:52:15.:52:22.

there is a back log of PIP cases waiting

:52:23.:52:35.

to be heard in Bristol. And huge demand for help and support

:52:36.:52:38.

from people like Sarah. But at the same time,

:52:39.:52:42.

funding for the DFI's agencies that provide that support

:52:43.:52:44.

is under threat. Because councils have

:52:45.:52:46.

to balance their books. So advice services are being

:52:47.:52:50.

squeezed at the same time as council drop-in centres like this

:52:51.:52:54.

one are being closed. The most honourable people

:52:55.:52:58.

are going to suffer because There will be people in this

:52:59.:53:06.

city that will not be supported adequately to claim PIP

:53:07.:53:09.

and help them live more The root cause is the cup

:53:10.:53:12.

from central Government. We are working as best

:53:13.:53:18.

we can to minimise that impact, but we have been honest

:53:19.:53:20.

from the beginning, we know that We know it is going to

:53:21.:53:23.

impact vulnerable people. We are doing the best

:53:24.:53:37.

that we can to avoid that. But are they bearing

:53:38.:53:40.

the vast brunt, if Crewe no, I don't think

:53:41.:53:42.

they are bearing the brunt. Inevitably, the people

:53:43.:53:45.

who received council services are the ones

:53:46.:53:47.

who The Government say that very few PIP

:53:48.:53:48.

dissidents have been overturned People who do lose

:53:49.:53:56.

out can get a one off They insist PIP is a better benefit

:53:57.:54:00.

than what went before. But there is a second

:54:01.:54:03.

review of PIP underway. Sarah and others just want it

:54:04.:54:05.

to be fairer and easier. Joining us to discuss

:54:06.:54:08.

that is the disability Three out of four

:54:09.:54:10.

appeals for these new payments are in fact successful,

:54:11.:54:14.

why is the number so high? Because the right decisions

:54:15.:54:17.

are not being made Well, if you look at the evidence

:54:18.:54:19.

that was put to the first review of PIP, it is because there

:54:20.:54:28.

is not enough time put into checking supporting evidence

:54:29.:54:33.

for people's claims, there has been quite

:54:34.:54:41.

a few cases where it was

:54:42.:54:45.

demonstrated that things have been noted down

:54:46.:54:46.

that the situations where for example a case

:54:47.:54:48.

a couple of weeks ago, where the SS said, well, if you get migraines,

:54:49.:55:02.

which of your impairment is it down And they said, well, I have several

:55:03.:55:05.

impairments and one effect No, I'm sorry, you've got to tell me

:55:06.:55:08.

which impairment it is that it is So when you have got that level

:55:09.:55:13.

of ignorance, to be honest, You think it is right

:55:14.:55:19.

that the disabled people should be PIP isn't about work,

:55:20.:55:25.

by the way, but the estimates from researchers is

:55:26.:55:31.

that the average additional cost for a disabled person is 25%,

:55:32.:55:35.

so for your neighbour If you're getting social care

:55:36.:55:46.

support, probably like that woman that if she were able to apply,

:55:47.:55:49.

that goes up to 50%. Very briefly, how stressful

:55:50.:55:52.

is it if you've been rejected to go through

:55:53.:55:54.

the appeals process? A lot of people don't get that

:55:55.:55:56.

far because they can't I had a woman come to me about four

:55:57.:56:00.

weeks ago and she had been turned down and she was

:56:01.:56:04.

absolutely beside herself. One of the problems

:56:05.:56:08.

as well that doesn't help with assessments is that people

:56:09.:56:13.

that people don't tend to overplay the impact of the payments

:56:14.:56:23.

on their life, they underplay them. Let's bring the other

:56:24.:56:26.

politicians in now. Clare, what would Labour's

:56:27.:56:27.

answer to this be? This is clearly an

:56:28.:56:29.

issue that has to be As was said in the clip,

:56:30.:56:32.

we have got this cascade of cuts that are coming down in terms

:56:33.:56:46.

of support for the people That is why we are seeing

:56:47.:56:49.

the results that we What has happened now is the rate

:56:50.:56:53.

of challenge that is I understand all that,

:56:54.:56:57.

but I was just asking what You need to look at

:56:58.:57:00.

a solution which actually ensures that people get

:57:01.:57:05.

We are an incredibly wealthy country still.

:57:06.:57:09.

This is about political choices about where you spend your

:57:10.:57:12.

It has to be a priority that we look after the people in our

:57:13.:57:19.

So what would fall off the other end?

:57:20.:57:22.

It is impossible for me to say that a

:57:23.:57:28.

We're not in Government, we don't have the books that are open.

:57:29.:57:33.

The Tories, let's bring in Rebecca here.

:57:34.:57:35.

The Tories are attending to cut ?3.7 billion from the disability

:57:36.:57:38.

What I would say is actually 50 billion has been spent

:57:39.:57:43.

on this entire sector and that is 6% of all Government spending.

:57:44.:57:49.

The idea of PIP wasn't to give people a hard

:57:50.:57:51.

time, it was actually to try and make sure

:57:52.:57:53.

that the money goes to the

:57:54.:57:55.

people that most need it in the right way.

:57:56.:57:59.

I do totally understand that there have been some teething

:58:00.:58:01.

problems and we get plenty through our door and we help them.

:58:02.:58:04.

One of the examples you gave was something

:58:05.:58:07.

One chap, he had a mental health issue and he

:58:08.:58:11.

found it so stressful that we enabled him,

:58:12.:58:13.

we wrote in writing for

:58:14.:58:16.

him to go through the system and he had been able to get the money.

:58:17.:58:21.

Rebecca, the system is putting people through hoops, isn't it?

:58:22.:58:23.

If you are not feeling well, or if you

:58:24.:58:25.

are in pain and you have to fight a Government...

:58:26.:58:32.

You actually did a very good documentary on the BBC

:58:33.:58:35.

last night about some of the people claiming benefits they shouldn't

:58:36.:58:37.

We need to make sure the people that really need the money are

:58:38.:58:43.

Actually, a quarter of all people now on PIPs are getting

:58:44.:58:46.

Rebecca, let me just say to you one second.

:58:47.:58:55.

You would have thought if you are going for an

:58:56.:59:00.

assessment, and you are disabled, you will probably try and give the

:59:01.:59:03.

person sitting in front of you in the wheelchair the benefit of the

:59:04.:59:06.

doubt, rather than the other way around.

:59:07.:59:07.

Yes, it is all about how human beings have handled the

:59:08.:59:10.

Is reducing ?3.7 million out of the budget.

:59:11.:59:15.

The cases that we have helped in her office than we

:59:16.:59:20.

do it every day, we have had very good results.

:59:21.:59:23.

The assessment criteria are based on the

:59:24.:59:24.

And although PIP has only been going a little while, the

:59:25.:59:36.

same principle underlines the work capability assessments which we have

:59:37.:59:38.

had for much longer and it has been proven that they don't work either.

:59:39.:59:47.

What I would also say just quickly is a funded charity, if 65% or

:59:48.:59:50.

74 if it is Bristol, of our outputs were wrong,

:59:51.:59:56.

we're not actually up to

:59:57.:59:58.

So why are we spending 500 million and

:59:59.:00:03.

so on on companies and paying civil servants?

:00:04.:00:05.

Remember, everything has to be reconsidered.

:00:06.:00:08.

And so sorry, our time is just going so fast.

:00:09.:00:13.

In a word, would you support not cutting

:00:14.:00:16.

the advisers, people who help disabled people go before the

:00:17.:00:19.

I would support having the right type of advisers with the

:00:20.:00:23.

human touch being able to get the right people what they need.

:00:24.:00:28.

Just time to have a look now at what else is going on in

:00:29.:00:33.

It was revealed this week that five West Country MPs are being

:00:34.:00:42.

investigated over their election expenses.

:00:43.:00:46.

They were questioned by police over visits from the Tory

:00:47.:00:51.

The party's been fined, the MPs deny any

:00:52.:00:57.

Bristol millionaire Aron Banks continued his war of words

:00:58.:01:02.

against Ukip, despite being a major donor, he claimed he'd been

:01:03.:01:04.

suspended from the party and he tweeted this logo which seems

:01:05.:01:07.

There is an independent candidate in the race

:01:08.:01:13.

to become west of England Metro Mayor.

:01:14.:01:15.

Businessman John Savage has announced he's standing.

:01:16.:01:19.

It is an obscenity that people can't get

:01:20.:01:31.

provided with the basic needs of life.

:01:32.:01:33.

And the mayor of Bristol Marvin Rees,

:01:34.:01:35.

went back to his former school for BBC School report.

:01:36.:01:37.

He answered questions on everything from

:01:38.:01:39.

children's mental health to his ambitions to bring powerboat racing

:01:40.:01:41.

My thanks to all my guests for coming in.

:01:42.:01:49.

I will see you all the same time, same place next week.

:01:50.:01:52.

pricing of these buildings. Thank you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back

:01:53.:01:57.

to you. So, can George Osborne stay

:01:58.:02:02.

on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force

:02:03.:02:05.

a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas

:02:06.:02:09.

and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?

:02:10.:02:22.

They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.

:02:23.:02:28.

Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it

:02:29.:02:33.

was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's

:02:34.:02:36.

Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May

:02:37.:02:44.

on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.

:02:45.:02:48.

But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP

:02:49.:02:51.

for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,

:02:52.:02:54.

Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of

:02:55.:02:57.

While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,

:02:58.:03:03.

an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him

:03:04.:03:05.

Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow

:03:06.:03:11.

at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,

:03:12.:03:13.

And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,

:03:14.:03:20.

he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking

:03:21.:03:26.

around ?750,000 since last summer.

:03:27.:03:31.

So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,

:03:32.:03:41.

though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow

:03:42.:03:44.

MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that

:03:45.:03:49.

kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy

:03:50.:03:54.

about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting

:03:55.:03:59.

appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre

:04:00.:04:03.

right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been

:04:04.:04:07.

on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they

:04:08.:04:12.

are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.

:04:13.:04:17.

So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to

:04:18.:04:19.

condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are

:04:20.:04:26.

all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the

:04:27.:04:30.

degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard

:04:31.:04:36.

was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it

:04:37.:04:40.

was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be

:04:41.:04:44.

overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.

:04:45.:04:49.

But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms

:04:50.:04:54.

have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who

:04:55.:05:00.

used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on

:05:01.:05:04.

television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank

:05:05.:05:08.

account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,

:05:09.:05:13.

Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to

:05:14.:05:18.

see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the

:05:19.:05:23.

Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David

:05:24.:05:26.

Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.

:05:27.:05:34.

Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is

:05:35.:05:38.

sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I

:05:39.:05:42.

was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble

:05:43.:05:46.

journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am

:05:47.:05:50.

everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage

:05:51.:05:54.

everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.

:05:55.:05:59.

What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption

:06:00.:06:03.

about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He

:06:04.:06:07.

thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of

:06:08.:06:10.

message does that send to people about how seriously people take the

:06:11.:06:15.

role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The

:06:16.:06:21.

Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the

:06:22.:06:26.

proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some

:06:27.:06:29.

kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback

:06:30.:06:33.

there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished

:06:34.:06:37.

yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne

:06:38.:06:42.

cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and

:06:43.:06:47.

tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see

:06:48.:06:51.

already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!

:06:52.:06:59.

Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've

:07:00.:07:04.

never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not

:07:05.:07:07.

bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own

:07:08.:07:13.

future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be

:07:14.:07:17.

Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a

:07:18.:07:21.

new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an

:07:22.:07:25.

MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The

:07:26.:07:29.

Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to

:07:30.:07:36.

make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day

:07:37.:07:40.

and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The

:07:41.:07:44.

news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in

:07:45.:07:49.

your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not

:07:50.:07:55.

over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.

:07:56.:08:02.

School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky

:08:03.:08:09.

one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this

:08:10.:08:14.

through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a

:08:15.:08:20.

small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.

:08:21.:08:25.

Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not

:08:26.:08:29.

going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been

:08:30.:08:34.

on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether

:08:35.:08:39.

they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something

:08:40.:08:42.

possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you

:08:43.:08:47.

can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there

:08:48.:08:51.

are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go

:08:52.:08:55.

ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the

:08:56.:08:59.

country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in

:09:00.:09:04.

certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,

:09:05.:09:09.

the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being

:09:10.:09:13.

mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate

:09:14.:09:17.

more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in

:09:18.:09:21.

the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on

:09:22.:09:25.

schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to

:09:26.:09:29.

be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,

:09:30.:09:34.

NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip

:09:35.:09:38.

Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There

:09:39.:09:42.

was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested

:09:43.:09:48.

perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at

:09:49.:09:52.

passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when

:09:53.:09:55.

it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we

:09:56.:09:59.

study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and

:10:00.:10:05.

quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May

:10:06.:10:10.

is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it

:10:11.:10:13.

wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed

:10:14.:10:18.

Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us

:10:19.:10:22.

see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of

:10:23.:10:26.

argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday

:10:27.:10:30.

was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the

:10:31.:10:35.

speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in

:10:36.:10:38.

intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As

:10:39.:10:44.

you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more

:10:45.:10:47.

cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the

:10:48.:10:52.

industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain

:10:53.:10:55.

markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there

:10:56.:11:00.

comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

:11:01.:11:06.

They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face

:11:07.:11:10.

rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel

:11:11.:11:14.

bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two

:11:15.:11:21.

things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food

:11:22.:11:24.

bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she

:11:25.:11:28.

has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen

:11:29.:11:31.

to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.

:11:32.:11:35.

They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk

:11:36.:11:39.

and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree

:11:40.:11:43.

with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on

:11:44.:11:56.

this and the principle of continually talking about

:11:57.:11:59.

interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on

:12:00.:12:02.

energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the

:12:03.:12:05.

world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are

:12:06.:12:07.

open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing

:12:08.:12:10.

this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem

:12:11.:12:13.

in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't

:12:14.:12:15.

operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,

:12:16.:12:18.

the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you

:12:19.:12:22.

should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest

:12:23.:12:26.

explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,

:12:27.:12:31.

this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the

:12:32.:12:35.

meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty

:12:36.:12:38.

government action on this for quite some time. For the just about

:12:39.:12:44.

managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated

:12:45.:12:48.

by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and

:12:49.:12:51.

centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by

:12:52.:12:56.

the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral

:12:57.:13:01.

because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming

:13:02.:13:04.

into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went

:13:05.:13:08.

very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there

:13:09.:13:12.

was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do

:13:13.:13:16.

to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing

:13:17.:13:22.

Street. We await to see the actions taken.

:13:23.:13:24.

On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics

:13:25.:13:31.

will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.

:13:32.:13:34.

And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.

:13:35.:13:37.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:38.:13:39.

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