Browse content similar to 05/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday Morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
The Chancellor says that to embark on a spending spree | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
in Wednesday's Budget would be "reckless". | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
But will there be more money for social care and to ease | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
The UK terror threat is currently severe, | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
but where is that threat coming from? | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
We have the detailed picture from a vast new study of every | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
Islamist related terrorist offence committed over the last two decades. | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
What can we learn from these offences to thwart future attacks? | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
The government was defeated in the Lords on its | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
The baby boomers who of Commons what he'll do if peers | :01:13. | :01:36. | |
All that coming up in the next hour and a quarter. | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
Now, some of you might have read that intruders managed | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
to get into the BBC news studios this weekend. | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
Well three of them appear not to have been ejected yet, | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
so we might as well make use of them as our political panel. | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
They'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
Philip Hammond will deliver his second financial | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
statement as Chancellor and the last Spring Budget | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
for a while at least - they are moving to the Autumn | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
There's been pressure on him to find more money | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
for the Health Service, social care, schools funding, | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
But this morning the Chancellor insisted that he will not be | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
using the proceeds of better than expected tax receipts to embark | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
What is being speculated on is whether we might not have borrowed | :02:24. | :02:35. | |
quite as much as we were forecast to borrow. You will see the numbers on | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
Wednesday. But if your bank increases your credit card limit, I | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
do not think you feel obliged to go out and spent every last penny of it | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
He is moving the budget to the autumn, he told us that in his | :02:49. | :03:00. | |
statement, so maybe on Wednesday it will be like a spring statement | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
rather than a full-blown budget. Tinkering pre-Brexit and in November | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
he will have a more clear idea of the impact of Brexit and I suspect | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
that will be the bigger event than this one. It looks as if there will | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
be a bit of money here and there, small amounts, not enough in my | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
view, for social care and so on, possibly a review of social care | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
policy. A familiar device which rarely get anywhere. I think he has | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
got a bit more space to do more if he wanted to do now because of the | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
politics. They are miles ahead in the polls, so he could do more, but | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
it is not in his character, he is cautious. So he keeps his powder dry | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
on most things, he does some things, but he keeps it dry until November. | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
But also, as Steve says, he will know just how strong the economy has | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
been this year by November and whether he needs to do some pump | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
priming or whether everything is fine. He said it is too early to | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
make those sorts of judgments now. What is striking is the amount of | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
concern there is an Number ten and in the Treasury about the tone of | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
this budget, so less about the actual figures and more about what | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
message this is sending out to the rest of the world. I think some | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
senior MPs are calling it a kind of treading water budget and Phil | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
Hammond has got quite a difficult act to perform because he is | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
instinctively rather cautious, or very cautious, and instinctively | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
slightly gloomy about Brexit. He wanted to remain. But he does not | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
want this budget to sounded downbeat and he will be mauled if he makes it | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
sound downbeat, so he has to inject a little bit of optimism and we may | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
see that in the infrastructure spending plans. He has got some room | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
to manoeuvre. The deficit by the financial year ending in April we | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
now know will not be as big as the OBR told us only three and a half | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
months ago that it would be. They added 12 billion on and they may | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
take most of that off again. He is under pressure from his own side to | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
do something on social care and business rates and I bet some Tory | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
backbenchers would not mind a little bit more money for the NHS as well. | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
He is on a huge pressure to do a whole lot on a whole load, not just | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
social care. There is also how on earth do we pay for so many old | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
people? There is the NHS, defence spending, everything. But his words | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
this morning, which is I am not going to spend potentially an extra | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
30 billion I might have by 2020 because of improved economic growth | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
was interesting. You need to hold something back because Brexit might | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
go back and he was a bit of a remain campaign person. If you think | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
Britain is going to curl up into a corner and hideaway licking its | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
wounds, you have got another think coming. That 30 billion he might | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
have extra in his pocket could be worth deploying on building up | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
Britain with huge tax cuts in case there is no deal, a war chest if you | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
like. He will have more than 27 billion. He may decide 27 billion in | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
the statement, the margin by which he tries to get the structural | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
deficit down, he will still have 27 billion. If the receipts are better | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
than they are forecast, some people are saying he will have a war chest | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
of 60 billion. That money, as Mr Osborne found out, can disappear. He | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
clearly is planning not to go on a spending spree this Wednesday. It is | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
interesting in the FTB and the day, David Laws who was chief Secretary | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
for five minutes, was also enthusiastic about the original | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
George Osborne austerity programme and he said, we have reached the | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
limits to what is socially possible with this and a consensus is | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
beginning to emerge that he will have to spend more money than he | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
plans to this Wednesday. This is not just from Labour MPs, but from a lot | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
of Conservative MPs as well. People will wonder when this austerity will | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
end because it seems to be going on for ever. We will have more on the | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
budget later in the programme. Now, the government was defeated | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
last week in the House of Lords. Peers amended the bill that | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
will allow Theresa May to trigger Brexit to guarantee the rights of EU | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
nationals currently in the UK. The government says it will remove | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
the amendment when the bill returns But today a report from | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
the Common's Brexit committee also calls for the Government to make | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
a unilateral decision to safeguard the rights of EU | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
nationals living here. If the worst happened, | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
are we actually going to say to 3 million Europeans here, | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
who are nurses, doctors, serving us tea and coffee in restaurants, | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
giving lectures at Leeds University, picking and processing vegetables, | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
"Right, off you go"? No, of course we are not | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
going to say that. So, why not end the | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
uncertainty for them now? will help to create the climate | :08:18. | :08:19. | |
which will ensure everyone gets to say because that's | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
what all of us want. That is why we have unanimously | :08:25. | :08:34. | |
agreed this recommendation that the government should make unilateral | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
decision to say to EU citizens here, yes, you can stay, because we think | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
that is the right and fair thing to do. | :08:45. | :08:44. | |
And we're joined now from Buckinghamshire by the leader | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
of the House of Commons, David Lidington. | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
Welcome back to the programme. The House of Lords has amended the | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
Article 50 bill to allow the unilateral acceptance of EU | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
nationals' right to remain in the UK. Is it still the government was | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
my intention to remove that amendment in the comments? We have | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
always been clear that we think this bill is very straightforward, it | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
does nothing else except give the Prime Minister the authority that | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
the courts insist upon to start the Article 50 process of negotiating | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
with the other 27 EU countries. On the particular issue of EU citizens | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
here and British citizens overseas, the PM did suggest that the December | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
European summit last year that we do a pre-negotiation agreement on this. | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
That was not acceptable to all of the other 27 because they took the | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
view that you cannot have any kind of negotiation and to Article 50 has | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
been triggered. That is where we are. I hope with goodwill and | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
national self interest on all sides we can tackle this is right that the | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
start of those negotiations. But it is not just the Lords. We have now | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
got the cross-party Commons Brexit committee saying you should now make | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
the unilateral decision to safeguard the rights of EU nationals in the | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
UK. Even Michael go, Peter Lilley, John Whittington, agree. So why are | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
you so stubborn on this issue? I think this is a complex issue that | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
goes beyond the rise of presidents, but about things like the rights of | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
access to health care, to pension ratings and benefits and so on... | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
But you could settle back. It is also, Andrew, because you have got | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
to look at it from the point of view of the British citizens, well over 1 | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
million living elsewhere in Europe. If we make the unilateral gesture, | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
it might make us feel good for Britain and it would help in the | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
short term those EU citizens who are here, but you have got those British | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
citizens overseas who would then be potential bargaining chips in the | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
hands of any of the 27 other governments. We do not know who will | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
be in office during the negotiations and they may have completely | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
extraneous reasons to hold up the agreement on the rights of British | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
citizens. The sensible way to deal with this is 28 mature democracies | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
getting around the table starting the negotiations and to agree to | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
something that is fair to all sides and is reciprocal. What countries | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
might take on UK nationals living in the EU? What countries are you | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
frightened of? The one thing that I know from my own experience in the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
past of being involved in European negotiations is that issues come up | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
that maybe have nothing to do with British nationals, but another issue | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
that matters a huge amount to a particular government, it may not be | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
a government yet in office, and they decide we can get something out of | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
this, so let's hold up the agreement on British citizens until the | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
British move in the direction we want on issue X. I hope it does not | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
come to that. I think the messages I have had from EU ambassadors in | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
London and from those it my former Europe colleague ministers is that | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
we want this to be a done deal as quickly as possible. That is the | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
British Government's very clear intention. We hope that we can get a | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
reciprocal deal agreed before the Article 50 process. That was not | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
possible. I understand that, you have said that already. But even if | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
there is no reciprocal deal being done, is it really credible that EU | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
nationals already here would lose their right to live and work and | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
face deportation? You know that is not credible, that will not happen. | :13:02. | :13:09. | |
We have already under our own system law whereby some people who have | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
been lawfully resident and working here for five years can apply for | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
permanent residency, but it is not just about residents. It is about | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
whether residency carries with it certain rights of access to health | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
care. I understand that, but have made this point. But the point is | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
the right to live and work here that worries them at the moment. The Home | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
Secretary has said there can be no change in their status without a | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
vote in parliament. Could you ever imagine the British Parliament | :13:46. | :13:47. | |
voting to remove their right to live and work here? I think the British | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
Parliament will want to be very fair to EU citizens, as Hilary Benn and | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
others rightly say they have been overwhelmingly been here working | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
hard and paying taxes and contributing to our society. They | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
were equally want to make sure there is a fair deal for our own citizens, | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
more than a million, elsewhere in Europe. You cannot disentangle the | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
issue of residence from those things that go with residents. Is the | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
Article 50 timetabled to be triggered before the end of this | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
month, is it threatened by these amendments in the Lords? I sincerely | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
hope not because the House of Lords is a perfectly respectable | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
constitutional role to look again at bills sent up by the House of | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
commons. But they also have understood traditionally that as an | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
unelected house they have to give primacy to the elected Commons at | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
the end of the day. In this case it is not just the elected Commons that | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
sent the bill to be amended, but the referendum that lies behind that. It | :14:58. | :15:06. | |
is not possible? We are confident we can get Article 50 triggered by the | :15:07. | :15:07. | |
end of the month. One of the other Lords amendments | :15:08. | :15:16. | |
will be to have a meaningful vote on the Brexit deal when it is done at | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
the end of the process, what is your view on that? What would you | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
understand by a meaningful vote? The Government has already said there is | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
going to be a meaningful vote at the end of the process. What do you mean | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
by a meaningful vote? The parliament will get the opportunity to vote on | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
the deal before it finishes the EU level process of going to | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
consideration by the European Parliament. Parliament will be given | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
a choice, as I understand, for either a vote for the deal you have | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
negotiated or we leave on WTO rules and crash out anyway, is that what | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
you mean by a meaningful choice? Parliament will get the choice to | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
vote on the deal, but I think you have put your finger on the problem | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
with trying to write something into the bill because any idea that the | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
PM's freedom to negotiate is limited, any idea that if the EU 27 | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
were to play hardball, that somehow that means parliament would take | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
fright, reverse the referendum verdict and set aside the views of | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
the British people, that would almost guarantee that it would be | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
much more difficult to get the sort of ambitious mutually beneficial | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
deal for us and the EU 27. Your idea of a meaningful vote in parliament | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
is the choices either to vote to accept this deal or we leave anyway, | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
that is your idea of a meaningful vote. The Article 50 process is | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
straightforward. There is the position of both parties in the | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
recent Supreme Court case that the Article 50 process once triggered is | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
irrevocable. That is in the EU Treaty already but we are saying | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
very clearly that Parliament will get that right to debate and vote. I | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
think the problem with what some in the House of Lords are proposing, I | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
hope it is not a majority, is that the amendments they would seek to | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
insert would tie the Prime Minister's hands, limit and | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
negotiating freedom and put her in a more difficult position to negotiate | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
on behalf of this country than should be the case. One year ago you | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
said it could take six to eight years to agree a free-trade deal | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
with the EU. Now you think you can do it in two, what's changed your | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
mind? There is a very strong passionate supporter of Remain, as | :17:55. | :18:08. | |
you know. I hope very much we are able to conclude not just the terms | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
of the exit deal but the agreement that we are seeking on the long-term | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
trade relationship... I understand that, but I'm trying to work out, | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
what makes you think you can do it in two years when only a year ago | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
you said it would take up to wait? The referendum clearly makes a big | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
difference, and I think that there is an understanding amongst real the | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
other 27 governments now that it is in everybody's interests to sort | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
this shared challenge out of negotiating a new relationship | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
between the EU 27 and the UK because European countries, those in and | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
those who will be out of the EU, share the need to face up to massive | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
challenges like terrorism and technological change. All of that | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
was pretty obvious one year ago but we will see what happens. Thank you, | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
David Lidington. Now, the Sunday Politics has had | :19:11. | :19:11. | |
sight of a major new report The thousand-page study, | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
which researchers say is the most comprehensive ever produced, | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
analyses all 269 Islamist telated terrorist offences | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
committed between 1998-2015. Most planned attacks were, | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
thankfully, thwarted, but what can we learn | :19:29. | :19:30. | |
from those offences? For the police and the intelligence | :19:31. | :19:32. | |
agencies to fight terror, Researchers at the security think | :19:33. | :19:41. | |
tank The Henry Jackson Society gave us early access to their huge | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
new report which analyses every Islamism related attack | :19:49. | :19:59. | |
and prosecution in the UK since 1998, that's 269 cases | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
involving 253 perpetrators. With issues as sensitive | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
as counterterrorism and counter radicalisation, it is really | :20:06. | :20:07. | |
important to have an evidence base from which you draw | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
policy and policing, This isn't my opinion, | :20:11. | :20:12. | |
this the facts. This chart shows the number | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
of cases each year combined with a small number | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
of successful suicide attacks. Notice the peak in the middle | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
of the last decade around the time of the 7/7 bombings | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
in London in 2005. Offences tailed off, | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
before rising again from 2010, when a three-year period accounted | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
for a third of all the terrorism cases since the researchers | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
started counting. What we are seeing is a combination | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
of both more offending, in terms of the threat increasing, | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
we know that from the security services and police statements, | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
but also I believe we are getting more efficient in terms | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
of our policing and we are actually A third of people were found to have | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
facilitated terrorism, that's providing encouragement, | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
documents, money. About 18% of people | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
were aspirational terrorists, 12% of convictions were related | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
to travel, to training And 37% of people were convicted | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
of planning attacks, although the methods have | :21:15. | :21:22. | |
changed over time. Five or six years ago, | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
we saw lots of people planning or attempting pipe bombs and most | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
of the time they had Inspire magazine in their possession, | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
that's a magazine, an Al-Qaeda English-language online | :21:34. | :21:35. | |
magazine that had specific More recently we have seen | :21:36. | :21:37. | |
Islamic State encouraging people to engage in lower tech knife | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
beheading, stabbings attacks and I think that's why we have | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
seen that more recently. Shasta Khan plotted with her | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
husband to bomb the Jewish In 2012 she received | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
an eight-year prison sentence. She's one of an increasing | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
number of women convicted of an Islamism related offence | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
although it is still overwhelmingly a crime carried out | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
by men in their 20s. Despite fears of foreign terrorists, | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
a report says the vast Most have their home in London, | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
around 43% of them. 18% lived in the West Midlands, | :22:11. | :22:19. | |
particularly in Birmingham, and the north-west is another | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
hotspot with around 10% Richard Dart lived in Weymouth | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
and tried to attend a terrorist He was a convert to Islam, as were | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
60% of the people in this report. He was a convert to Islam, as were | :22:33. | :22:41. | |
16% of the people in this report. Like the majority of cases, | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
he had a family, network. What's particularly interesting | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
is how different each story is in many ways, | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
but then within those differences So your angry young men, | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
in the one sense inspired to travel, seek training and combat experience | :22:54. | :23:01. | |
abroad, and then the older, recruiter father-figure types, | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
the fundraising facilitator types. There are types within | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
this terrorism picture, but the range of backgrounds | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
and experiences is huge. And three quarters of those | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
convicted of Islamist terrorism were on the radar of the authorities | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
because they had a previous criminal record, they had | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
made their extremism public, or because MI5 had them | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
under surveillance. To discuss the findings of this | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
report are the former Security Minister Pauline Neville-Jones, | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
Talha Ahmad from the Muslim Council of Britain, and Adam Deen | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
from the anti-extremist group The report finds the most segregated | :23:43. | :23:57. | |
Muslim community is, the more likely it is to incubate Islamist | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
terrorists, what is the MCB doing to encourage more integrated | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
communities? Its track record on calling for reaching out to the | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
wider society and having a more integrated and cohesive society I | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
think is a pretty strong one, so one thing we are doing for example very | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
recently I've seen we had this visit my mosque initiative, the idea was | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
that mosques become open to inviting people of other faiths and their | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
neighbours to come so we were encouraged to see so many | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
participating. It is one step forward. Is it a good thing or a bad | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
thing that in a number of Muslim communities, the Muslim population | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
is over 60% of the community? I personally and the council would | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
prefer to have more mixed communities but one of the reason | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
they are heavily concentrated is not so much because they prefer to but | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
often because the socio- economic reality forces them to. But you | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
would like to see less segregation? Absolutely, we would prefer more | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
diverse communities around the country. What is your reaction to | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
that? Will need more diverse communities but one of the | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
challenges we have right now with certain organisations is this | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
pushback against the Government, with its attempts to help young | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
Muslims not go down this journey of extremism. One of those things is | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
the Prevent strategy and we often hear organisations like the MCB | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
attacking the strategy which is counter-productive. What do you say | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
to that? Do we support the Government have initiatives to | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
counteract terrorism, of course we do. Do you support the Prevent | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
strategy? We don't because it scapegoats an entire community. The | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
report shows that contrary to a lot of lone wolf theories and people | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
being radicalised in their bedrooms on the Internet that 80% of those | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
convicted had connections with the extremist groups. Indeed 25% willing | :26:02. | :26:21. | |
to Al-Muhajiroun. I think this report, which is a thorough piece of | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
work, charts a long period and it is probably true to say that in the | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
earlier stages these organisations were very important, of course | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
subsequently we have had direct recruiting by IS one to one over the | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
Internet so we have a mixed picture of how people are recruited but | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
there's no doubt these organisations are recruiting sergeants. You were | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
once a member of one of these organisations, are we doing enough | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
to thwart them? If we just focus on these organisations, we will fail. | :26:59. | :27:08. | |
We -- the question is are we doing enough to neutralise them? The | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
Government strategy is in the right place, but where we need to focus on | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
is the Muslim community or communities. The Muslim community | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
must realise that these violent extremists are fringe but they share | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
ideas, a broad spectrum of ideas that penetrate deeply within Muslim | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
communities and we need to tackle those ideas because that is where it | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
all begins. Are you in favour of banning groups like Al-Muhajiroun? | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
Yes, it was the right thing to do and I can tell you the community has | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
moved a long way, Al-Muhajiroun does not have support. Do you agree with | :27:47. | :27:54. | |
that? Yes, but it is very simplistic attacking Al-Muhajiroun. ISIS didn't | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
bring about extremism, extremism brought about ISIS, ISIS is just the | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
brand and if we don't deal with the ideological ideas we will have other | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
organisations popping up. The report suggests that almost a quarter of | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
Islamist the latest offences were committed by individuals previous | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
unknown to the security services. And this is on the rise, these | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
numbers. This would seem to make an already difficult task for our | :28:28. | :28:29. | |
intelligence services almost impossible. Two points. It is over | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
80% I think were known, but it shows the intelligence services and police | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
have got their eyes open. But the trend has been towards more not on | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
the radar. That has been because the nature of the recruitment has also | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
changed and you have much more ISIS inspired go out and do it yourself, | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
get a knife, do something simple, so we have fewer of the big | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
spectaculars that ISIS organised. Now you have got locally organised | :29:08. | :29:17. | |
people, two or three people get together, do something together, | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
very much harder actually to get forewarning of that. That is where | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
intelligence inside the community, the community coming to the police | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
say I'm worried about my friend, this is how you get ahead of that | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
kind of attack. Should people in the Muslim community who are worried | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
about individuals being radicalised, perhaps going down the terrorist | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
route, should they bring in the police? Absolutely and we have been | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
consistent on telling the community that wherever they suspect someone | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
has been involved in terrorism or any kind of criminal activity, they | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
should call the police and cooperate. As the so-called | :30:01. | :30:08. | |
caliphate collapses in the Middle East, how worried should we be about | :30:09. | :30:10. | |
fighters returning here? Extremely worried. They fall into | :30:11. | :30:23. | |
three categories. You have ones who are disillusioned about Islamic | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
State. You have ones who are disturbed, and then you have the | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
dangerous who have not disavowed their ideas and who will have great | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
reasons to perform attacks. What do we do? Anyone who comes back, there | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
should be evidence looked into if they committed any crimes. But all | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
those categories should all be be radicalised. You cannot leave them | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
alone. Will we be sure if we know when they come back? That is | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
difficult to say. They could come in and we might not know. There is a | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
watch list so you have got a better chance. And you can identify them? | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
This is where working with other countries is absolutely crucial and | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
our border controls need to be good as well. I am not saying and the | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
government is not saying that anyone would ever slip through, but it is | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
our ability to know when somebody is coming through and to stop them at | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
the border has improved. An important question. Given your | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
experience, how prepared are away for a Paris style attack in a | :31:35. | :31:42. | |
medium-size, provincial city? The government has exercised this one. | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
It started when I was security minister and it has been taken | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
seriously. The single biggest challenge that the police and the | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
Army says will be one of those mobile, roving attacks. You have to | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
take it seriously and the government does. All right, we will leave it | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
Now, Brexit may have swept austerity from the front pages, | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
but the deficit hasn't gone away and the government is still | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
Just this week Whitehall announced that government departments have | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
been told to find another ?3.5bn worth of savings by 2020. | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
Last November the Independent office for Budget Responsibility | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
said the budget deficit would be ?68 billion in the current | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
It would still be ?17 billion by 2021-22. | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
On Wednesday the Chancellor is expected to announce | :32:29. | :32:30. | |
that the 2016-17 deficit has come in much lower than the OBR forecast. | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
Even so, the government is still aiming for the lowest level | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
of public spending as a percentage of national income since 2003-4, | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
coupled with an increase in the tax burden to its highest | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
So spending cuts will continue with reductions in day-to-day | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
government spending accelerating, producing a real terms cut of over | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
But capital spending, investment on infrastructure | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
like roads, hospitals, housing, is projected to grow, | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
producing a 16 billion real terms increase by 2021-22. | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
The Chancellor's task on Wednesday is to keep these fiscal targets | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
while finding some more money for areas under serious | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
pressure such as the NHS, social care and business rates. | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
We're joined now by Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
Welcome back to the programme. In last March's budget the OBR | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
predicted just over 2% economic growth for this year. By the Autumn | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
Statement in the wake of the Brexit vote it downgraded back to 1.4%. It | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
is now expected to revise that back around to 2% as the Bank of England | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
has again. It is speculated on the future. It looks like we will get a | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
growth forecast for this year not very different from where it was a | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
year ago. What the bank did was upgrade its forecast for the next | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
year or so, but not change very much. It was thinking about three or | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
four years' time, which is what really matters. It looked like the | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
OBR made a mistake in downgrading the growth in the Autumn Statement | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
three months ago. It was more optimistic than nearly all the other | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
forecasters and the Bank of England. It was wrong, but not as wrong as | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
everybody else. We don't know, but if it significantly upgraded its | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
growth forecast for the next three or four years, I would be surprised. | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
It also added 12 billion to the deficit for the current financial | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
year in the Autumn Statement, compared with March. It looks like | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
that deficit will probably be cut again by about 12 billion compared | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
to the last OBR forecast. It is quite difficult to make economic | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
policy on the basis of changes of that skill every couple of months. | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
That is one of the problems about having these two economic event so | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
close together. My guess is the number will come out somewhere | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
between the budget and the Autumn Statement numbers. There was a nice | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
surprise for the Chancellor last month which looked like tax revenues | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
were coming in a lot more strongly than he expected. But again the real | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
question is how much is this making a difference in the medium run? Is | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
this a one-off thing all good news for the next several years? If | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
growth and revenues are stronger, perhaps not as strong as the good | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
news last month, but if they are stronger than had been forecast in | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
the Autumn Statement, what does that mean for planned spending cuts? It | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
probably does not mean very much. Let's not forget the best possible | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
outcome of this budget will be that for the next couple of years things | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
look no worse than they did a year ago and in four years out they will | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
still look a bit worse, and in addition Philip Hammond did increase | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
his spending plans in November. However good the numbers look in a | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
couple of days' time, we will still be borrowing at least 20 billion | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
more by 2020 than we were forecasting a year ago. Still quite | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
constrained. George Osborne wanted to get us to budget surplus by 2019. | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
That has gone. Philip Hammond is quite happy with a big deficit and | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
is not interested in that. But what he is thinking to a large extent, as | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
you have made clear, there is a lot of uncertainty about the economic | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
reaction over the next three or four years. He says he wants some | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
headroom. If things go wrong, I do not want to announce more spending | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
cuts or more tax rises to keep the deficit down. I want to say things | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
have gone wrong for now and we will borrow. And I have got some money in | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
the kitty. He will not spend a lot of it now. I understand the | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
Chancellor is worried about the erosion of the tax base and it is | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
hard to put VAT up by more than 20%, millions have been taken out of | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
income tax, only 46% of people pay income tax, fuel duty is frozen for | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
ever, corporation tax has been cut, the growth in self-employed has | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
reduced revenues, is that a real concern? These are all worries for | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
him. We have as you said in the introduction to this, got a tax | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
burden which is rising very gradually, but it is rising to its | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
highest level since the mid-19 80s, but is not doing it through | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
straightforward increases to income tax. Lots of bits of pieces of | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
insurance premium tax is here and the apprenticeship levied there, and | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
that is higher personal allowance of income tax and a freeze fuel duty, | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
but at some point we will have to look at the tax system as a whole | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
and ask if we can carry on like this. We will have to start increase | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
fuel duties again, or look to those big but unpopular taxes to really | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
keep that money coming in to keep the challenges we will have over the | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
next 30 years. He is going to set up a commission on social care. He has | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
had quite a few commissions on social care. Thank you for being | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
with us. It's just gone 11.35, | :38:38. | :38:39. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :38:40. | :38:41. | |
in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in twenty | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
minutes, the Week Ahead. You are watching the Sunday | :38:44. | :38:53. | |
Politics for Yorkshire These baby boomers say government | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
pension policy is sending them Will next week's budget | :38:58. | :39:06. | |
offer any relief? To get a letter two years before | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
I am 60, at 58 - you have to work six more years | :39:10. | :39:18. | |
and you are going to lose ?40,000 on average | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
in Are new guidelines restricting | :39:22. | :39:22. | |
some operations for obese patients and smokers the way | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
forward for the NHS? Is it about saving money | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
or stigmatising those Conservative MP for | :39:34. | :39:35. | |
Elmet and Rothwell. In our Hull studio is | :39:36. | :39:50. | |
Diana Johnson, Labour MP for The baby boomer generation was meant | :39:51. | :39:52. | |
to have it all, post-war Government benefits such | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
as subsidised housing, education, abundant food and clothes, | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
all part of the peace dividend. When the Government decided | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
to change pension rules so men and women claim state | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
pension at the same age, many said that pension claims | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
for many women went Only just 62, Helen worries she | :40:13. | :40:14. | |
could lose her home she has worked Not far away Susan, who is 64, | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
is angry she now has to rely The seething discontent | :40:23. | :40:33. | |
is widespread. In Hull, Mary and Rosie | :40:34. | :40:35. | |
say their retirement And they have now joined thousands | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
of other women, many of whom have never taken part in any | :40:38. | :40:53. | |
protest movement in their lives At rallies like this one, outside | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
the Conservative conference last September, they say they are victims | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
of a broken promise made when national insurance | :41:01. | :41:02. | |
funded pensions were Insured from the cradle | :41:03. | :41:04. | |
to the grave, that is the purpose of this national | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
insurance bill. This next autumn, old age pensioners | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
will get 42 shillings for Those widows and single women | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
collected 26 shillings These days it is paid electronically | :41:15. | :41:22. | |
and worth a lot more. The pension age was 60 | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
and men have to wait It was only last year | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
it started rising. Next year it will be 66 | :41:31. | :41:38. | |
for both, that affects 2.6 million women in that age group | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
who will lose up to 40,000 in pension, many, until very | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
recently, relied on that. I was never informed | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
officially about anything. The first time I heard | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
anything about it was when I was watching | :41:56. | :41:57. | |
George Osborne stand up in Parliament and give a speech | :41:58. | :41:59. | |
about the new retirement age. In a couple of weeks' | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
time he will make If you paid into a private pension, | :42:04. | :42:16. | |
they could not turn round and say, They would have informed | :42:17. | :42:34. | |
you of the changes. The pension Minister | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
declined an invitation to be His department gave | :42:39. | :42:39. | |
us an uncompromised The woman's action group say | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
notification has been almost To get a letter two years before | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
I am 60 at 58, all plans The plans that you have made | :42:52. | :43:03. | |
all your working life, you have to work six more years | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
and you are going to lose ?40,000 Ironically, 1940's | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
Government put every effort into explaining the introduction | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
of national insurance and how it would pay for future | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
Social Security and pensions. A word or two I would | :43:22. | :43:23. | |
like to mention. The country's most famous comedian | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
sent this message to every cinema Please, everyone, try | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
by the 5th of July to have read the booklet right | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
through and put it safely away. They do not make them | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
like that any more, These people have worked | :43:40. | :43:57. | |
hard all their lives. They have paid their stamp | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
and now they are told we Can you understand | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
why they are angry's Absolutely, I can understand the | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
anger when pension benefits change. We have seen in the | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
private sector issues. A lot of the problem is with | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
the state pension system is the The Government is | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
running out of money. Julie, who works for the NHS tweeted | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
us, she says she paid in for 45 years and now she is told she has | :44:28. | :44:36. | |
to work until she is 66. The Government have put in over | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
?1 billion in arrangement to cushion Nobody should be more | :44:41. | :44:49. | |
than 18 months out of the Originally, it was longer than that | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
and we have listened to what people were saying | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
and they have spent ?1 billion. It is a highly emotive issue | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
and people, when they started, decades ago, they thought | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
that was the age they were retiring That is something | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
we have seen in the private sector and | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
state sector as well. I want to bring in Diana Johnson | :45:16. | :45:17. | |
because I know she has strong issues The Government says this | :45:18. | :45:31. | |
is all down to equalisation on There are going to be | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
winners and losers. I think we all accept | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
that there should be the The problem with this | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
group of women is that they were not given | :45:43. | :45:52. | |
adequate notice 2011 when this whole process was speeded up | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
and they have now found themselves having to wait many more | :45:56. | :45:57. | |
months than 18 months. Many of my constituents are seeing | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
them having to wait years now to get the pension they thought | :46:01. | :46:08. | |
they would get much sooner. It is about the notice | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
and the fairness of That is why these | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
women are so angry. They feel there could have been | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
a public campaign to get information A lot of them never received | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
a letter saying there I think there is that | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
feeling of injustice that they have been | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
caught in this way. The transitional changes | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
the Government has introduced up That is why I will bring in | :46:34. | :46:35. | |
the budget they will be something to say to this group of women, who have | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
contributed all their lives, are have done the right thing, | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
that they get their pension when they were expecting it | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
or at a reduced rate. a I heard ministers talk | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
about saying some of the ministers involved | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
can claim benefits. Women in their 60s do not want to be | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
claiming that may have worked hard all their | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
lives, do they could? There is a lot of | :47:09. | :47:10. | |
argument that women were We are talking about 18 months | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
from the 2011 point. The actual point of it | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
being a later time. Lots of Government have | :47:20. | :47:21. | |
gone in that time. It comes down to the fundamental | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
issue that this was never going to be an easy transition and somehow | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
the system has got to become Diana Johnson, there | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
are going to be protests on Many women from your area | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
will be down there. What do you want the Government | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
to do given the state of the public I think there are various measures | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
they could introduce. One would be to pay | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
these women their in a committee have made suggestions | :47:50. | :48:01. | |
as well. I think it is really bad that the minister would not give an | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
interview. They will not meet with women. I think the Government to | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
think if they close their ears to the protest, these women are going | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
to go away. These women are going to keep going until they get this | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
matter sorted out to their satisfaction. Do you accept that the | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
Government is on the back foot? We have a female Prime Minister who is | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
now in their 60s. I agree it is a difficult situation for the | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
Government. I worked at DWP for a this Parliament. I had constituents | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
come and see me about this. The pension Minister... I sat around | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
these tables and I made these points. I was giving a clear message | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
that they were not going to change it. I do not know what will happen | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
in the budget. You have statements coming out saying things are being | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
looked at in terms of rates and in terms of social care. Maybe | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
something will be in that. We will talk about the budget later. We are | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
asking should smokers or people who are obese have access to medical | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
help on condition of losing weight or stopping smoking? This is | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
happening in some areas. North Yorkshire clinical groups, the | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
organisations to plan and by health care on our behalf, they are not | :49:27. | :49:34. | |
alone in introducing these measures. Controversial and Rachel. The MP is | :49:35. | :49:43. | |
not happy and as this in the Commons. This is wrong and | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
contravenes the professional duty of care. I am blowing the whistle on | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
this today because this policy is directly discriminatory and | :49:56. | :50:02. | |
financially perverse. I would be the first to advocate programmes | :50:03. | :50:11. | |
supporting smoking cessation and supporting positive lifestyles. It | :50:12. | :50:20. | |
brings our NHS into this repute. One of the motive is to save money, for | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
patients obesity is a problem in many areas. The Government report | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
out this month put Rotherham at the top of this list. 76% in this area | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
behind. The figure there is 75% in behind. The figure there is 75% in | :50:39. | :50:46. | |
Boston in Lincolnshire, the obesity rate is 74%. That compares with the | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
national average of 63%. We asked people in Hull whether they agreed | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
with the idea. They should do operations if you are overweight. I | :51:00. | :51:12. | |
think if people are obese, it is difficult because there are a lot of | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
side effects as well. That costs a lot of money. They should try to | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
lose weight first. If they want to ban smoking them banned smoking. Do | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
not say they cannot have health care because you are allowing smoking | :51:28. | :51:37. | |
anyway. I have a very good diet. Unfortunately, my metabolism, that | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
is what it is that makes me fat. It seems unreasonable, do you not | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
think? Obese people should not be forced but asked to slim down a bit | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
before the operation takes place. It reduces the risk. Joining us is the | :51:51. | :52:00. | |
manager of a rather Institute of obesity. He is a national adviser on | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
weight management. Hello. If people live and healthy lifestyles, can | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
expect treatment on the NHS no questions asked? Yes, that is the | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
type of NHS that we want. If you have smoked all your life through | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
choice and you end up with lung disease or lung cancer, we do not | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
say we are not going to treat those conditions because it is | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
self-inflicted. If you went on a skiing holiday abroad are alike, we | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
would not say you're not getting help on the NHS, even though it is | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
self-inflicted. The type of NHS we want is irrespective of because. We | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
should not discriminate against patients just because of their | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
weight. What do you think of this, Diana? Do you think there is an | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
argument to ration treatment if people are living unhealthy | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
lifestyle? I think we all want to encourage people to be a healthy | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
weight and not to smoke. What concerns me when I was listening to | :53:01. | :53:07. | |
Rachel's speech was that they were cutting back on the preventative | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
work around obesity and getting people to stop smoking. It seemed | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
odd that they were then say to people we are not going to treat | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
shoot unless you stop smoking and lose weight. Also clinically, there | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
is no evidence and the Royal College of surgeons say it could exacerbate | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
people's conditions if they are made to wait before they can access | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
surgery. I think this is not about clinical decision-making, which is | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
what the NHS should be about, it is about cutting costs and saving | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
money. I think that is wrong. This is the heart of the matter. Clinical | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
commissioning groups having to make tough decisions. Is it all about | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
money? Ultimately, the NHS is all about money. You can pour money into | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
it. The Government is reacting to it. It is not enough. There are lots | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
of issues within the NHS and how needs to approached. I agree with | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
what has been said. The need to have a health service that is free at | :54:11. | :54:12. | |
point of delivery and gives people the health care you need. I have | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
always been one who wants to see education. I am someone who smokes. | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
I am of the cigarettes and have been for a while now but it is hard. I | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
thought my weight all the time and try and keep it down. It goes up and | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
down. My political opponents on Twitter like to point out my weight. | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
It is tough but I do those things because I know what the effects | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
have. That is through education. I'll be right that in some cases to | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
play God and decide to get treatment and who does not based on lifestyle | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
choices? I do not agree with that policy. It is a far bigger | :54:54. | :55:02. | |
situation. How do you trying to have a healthier population? Ultimately, | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
we have a health service that is free at the point of delivery. It | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
does need more resources. We are to be get them from? I can probably | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
television saying, why should people television saying, why should people | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
who are unhealthy and deeply wrong things, the drink and smoke, why | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
should they be in the same place in the queue as someone who lives a | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
healthier lifestyle and is waiting for a hip replacement or a knee | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
replacement? Why should the not? There are some good points here. | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
Obesity is a complicated disease. We now know it is not just about people | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
eating too much or being too lazy. We know there are genetic factors | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
which means that the behaviour and diet of your mother whilst you were | :55:51. | :55:58. | |
in the womb can influence things. We know that the state and gut bacteria | :55:59. | :56:08. | |
influences your weight. There are so many different factors. It is not | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
just the fact that somebody is lazy and does not exercise. The examples | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
that I gave before, we have an NHS that will treat any condition, | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
irrespective of the cause. Why should be penalised people just | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
because of weight? There has to be a cut of point much does that not? If | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
you look at any GNC department, there are people who are drunk, | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
self-inflicted injuries. -- A department. I think we do need to | :56:37. | :56:46. | |
have conversation of how we fund the NHS. The NHS is under enormous | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
pressure. The area that the local sustainability and transformation | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
plan covers in my patch, the looking at a deficit of over ?4 million. | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
There are questions to ask about proper funding of the NHS. The | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
reforms that were brought in under the previous Government were | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
disastrous for the NHS. We have treated all of these silos now | :57:11. | :57:17. | |
within the NHS. I just think that was a mess. I think the NHS needs to | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
have a conversation about taxation have a conversation about taxation | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
for that, whether it is an increase in national insurance. That is a big | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
conversation. We will save it for another day. The last word to you. | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
Childhood obesity rates are still rising. What is the solution? We | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
have known for many years that there are over 100 different factors | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
involved. We, as a society, getting bigger. There is no one quick and | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
easy solution. Yes, we can all take individual responsibility for trying | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
to control how much we eat and becoming more physically active but | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
it is so complicated. We have to accept the fact that is not magic | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
one that will make somebody lose weight. You have to be motivated to | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
make that change and have services available to help those patients a | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
longer journey. By restricting services with funding cuts, we | :58:14. | :58:22. | |
cannot allow this to happen if you want a healthier population. Thank | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
you for your thoughts today. Let's get more of the week's political | :58:30. | :58:38. | |
views. The round-up in 60 seconds... The former mayor has been told she | :58:39. | :58:47. | |
has to apologise after admitting she lied... Heather appeared in front of | :58:48. | :58:55. | |
a dozen plenary hearing after complaints. -- disciplinary hearing. | :58:56. | :59:01. | |
The closure of the Brighouse rips. London's Ritz has threatened action | :59:02. | :59:10. | |
over the name. The Chancellor Philip Hammond has apologised to Mary Gray | :59:11. | :59:19. | |
after telling her to not get hysterical. Philip Hammond made the | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
comment and she said his comment was sexist and would not be made if she | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
was a man. Liam Fox films of Lincolnshire. He was at a company in | :59:30. | :59:39. | |
Boston who have exported confectionery to America recently. | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
Deanna Johnston, would you have been offended if Philip had called you | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
hysterical? Yes, I wind. It is a gendered insult that is used against | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
women. -- I'm weird. It was a reasonable question. I was listening | :59:57. | :00:05. | |
to her. -- I would. She was asking in general question and asking about | :00:06. | :00:14. | |
Brexit. People are put down in the House of Commons. Maybe you could | :00:15. | :00:22. | |
moderate your language. He is not a rude man and would not want to | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
offend anybody. Political debate in the chamber has a lot of put downs. | :00:29. | :00:36. | |
Not all sexist. A busy week for Mr Hammond. You both have a magic wand. | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
Give me one measure that would change the lives of people in your | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
area. I would like him to provide proper funding for social care, | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
particularly in areas like Hull, the announcement will not create the | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
money we need. I would like him to do some two something specific about | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
the poor areas that are having a social care crisis because of the | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
funding from Government. It is really about how we can try that at | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
the most efficient way to collect the money that we need. We can all | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
have wishes that we want this or that funded but we need to find the | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
money somewhere. How come a move this forward? Weatherby more money | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
for social care? There probably will be. -- will there be? We need reform | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
as well as money. Thank you for your thoughts. We are now off to the | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Ritz. That is the Ritz in Brighouse. need Crossrail as well. We will be | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
poring over the entrails of the budget next week. Thank you very | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
much indeed. So the Brexit Bill is back in | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
the Lords next week and the Lib Dems They've ordered pizza and camp beds | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
to encourage their peers to keep talking all night, | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
only to be told by the Lord's authorities that their plans fall | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
foul of health and safety laws. Laws that they probably voted for. | :02:10. | :02:21. | |
What did you make of David Liddington's remarks on the Lords | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
amendments, particularly not just the one on EU nationals, but on what | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
is regarded as a meaningful vote at the end of the process? Let's be | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
clear, as ministers like to say, the meaningful vote vote is by far the | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
biggest thing that will happen in Parliament. It puts EU citizens into | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
a tiny corner. It will decide not just who is going to have the final | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
say on this, but who the EU is negotiating with. Is it directly | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
with Theresa May or is it with Parliament? Who will decide the | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
shape of Brexit, Parliament or Theresa May? The Lords amendment is | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
just the first chapter. They have voiced Theresa May to give them a | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
veto on everything she does, and there is a possible chance in the | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
Commons could uphold this amendment. The meaningful vote amendment? The | :03:18. | :03:25. | |
meaningful vote amendment. But is it a meaningful vote if the choice is | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
to either back the deal or crash out of the deal? That is what the remain | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
supporting MPs or hardline people who want to remain fear. What they | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
want is the power to be able to send Theresa May back to the negotiating | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
table. Why is that anathema to many Brexit supporters? They believed it | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
would crucially and critically undermine Theresa May's negotiating | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
hand and also create a long period of uncertainty for business. There | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
is already great uncertainty and this could extend it. The | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
government's position is in there was a proper, meaningful vote which | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
Parliament could reject what was on offer, that would be an incentive to | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
the EU to give us a bad deal? I think that is the fear. If you are | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
saying to the people you are negotiating with that that is | :04:22. | :04:23. | |
another authority and Theresa May will have to go back and have all of | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
this approved, I think it would have a very significant undermining | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
effect on her negotiating hand. Things change from day to day. We | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
are talking about 2019 and 2018 at the earliest, but if the government | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
lost a vote on the Brexit deal, would he not have to call in someone | :04:45. | :04:53. | |
else? That is why the vote will be meaningful even if the amendment on | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
this meaningful vote will be lost. You cannot do a deal on something as | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
historic as Brexit and have Parliament against you. So, whatever | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
form this vote takes, whenever it happens, it will be hugely | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
meaningful. Whatever label that is given and if she lost it she would | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
call a general election. She could not impose it. To call a general | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
election now you need a majority of MPs which she will not have, so | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
maybe she will not get her election after all. It would be very unlike | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
Labour not to vote for an election. It would be very unlike Labour not | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
to vote for an election. The elections to Stormont have given | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
a boost to the republicans and put the long term status | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
of Northern Ireland in some doubt. Sinn Fein's leader Gerry Adams | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
spoke to reporters Yesterday was in many, | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
many ways a watershed election, and we have just started a process | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
of reflecting what it all means, but clearly the union's majority | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
in the Assembly has been ended, and the notion of a permanent | :06:00. | :06:15. | |
or a perpetual unionist majority Is he right? Is this a watershed? | :06:16. | :06:28. | |
The nationalist vote in the assembly will now come to 39 and the | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
Unionists 38. It is only one member, but it is significant. This is a | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
very serious moment and because of everything else going on with Donald | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Trump and Brexit it is taking a while for people here to realise | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
just how significant this is. Talking to someone who only recently | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
left a significant role in Northern Ireland politics last night, they | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
said they were very worried about what this means. It is likely there | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
will be a call for some kind of international figure to chair the | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
talks to try and see if there is a way of everybody working together. | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
All sides will probably try to extract more money from the | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
Treasury, but it is a very dangerous moment. Should we regard Michelle | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
O'Neill, who has replaced Mr McGuinness as the leader, it is she | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
the First Minister death probably not quite. An interesting thought. | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
Indeed, the daughter of an IRA man, a fascinating concept in itself. But | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
there are are still a large amount of MLAs who will not give Sinn Fein | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
what they need. But what effect does this have on the legacy of the | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
prosecutions and the great witchhunts which the British | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
Government has vowed to end. There is a majority left on the Stormont | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
assembly to end those. But some would keep them going for time | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
continuing, which is a headache for Theresa May. You have now got 27 | :08:01. | :08:09. | |
Sinn Fein members, 28 DUP, then the SDLP bumps up the numbers a little | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
bit. You have got the British Government transfixed with Brexit | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
which has huge implications for the border between North and South in | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
Ireland, and the Irish government is pretty wavering as well and if there | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
is an election there, Sinn Fein could do well in the Dublin | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
parliament as well. There are a lot of moving pieces. There are and | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
there is a danger that we look at everything through the prism of | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
Brexit, but I found Friday and this weekend fascinating. Theresa May and | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
Scotland were Nicola Sturgeon is framing Brexit entirely through an | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
argument to have a second referendum on independence which she wants to | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
hold it she possibly can. And the Irish situation with the prospect of | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
a hard border with Northern Ireland voting majority to remain, quite a | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
substantial majority, again a few of the instability at the moment. That | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
We will be keeping an eye on it for sure. | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
Yesterday, US President Donald Trump tweeted allegations | :09:22. | :09:22. | |
that his predecessor, Barack Obama, had ordered | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
his phones to be tapped during the election campaign. | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
"Terrible!", Trump wrote, "Just found out that Obama | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
I'm not quite sure what McCarthyism that is. | :09:35. | :09:47. | |
He followed up with a series of tweets comparing it to Watergate. | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
"How low has President Obama gone to tap my phones during the very | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
The sacred election process, I think at one stage he said it was a dodgy | :09:57. | :10:10. | |
election process, but now it is sacred. | :10:11. | :10:11. | |
You are frightened to go to bed at night, you do not know what you are | :10:12. | :10:24. | |
going to wake up to. Completely uncharted territory here. Little | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
more than a month ago at the inauguration they were making the | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
veneer of small talk and politely shaking hands. He saw Barack Obama | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
and Michelle off on the helicopter. You do not know what is coming next. | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
Is there a scintilla of evidence to back up Donald Trump's claims? Yes, | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
there is, although he is very muddled about it all. I will | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
explain. Remember what happened to Mike Flynn, talking to the Russian | :10:56. | :11:07. | |
and Ambassador will stop they were listening. Barack Obama does not | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
sign of warrants, but somebody else did. So why on earth would you not | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
want to listen to the president elect himself in case he might also | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
be breaking the law. Does that sound to you like convincing evidence or | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
just a supposition? I think Tom should go and work for him, that is | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
the most credible interpretation I have heard for a long time. Start | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
tweeting the case for the tweet. What is interesting about this is my | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
theory is he does not really like the idea of being a president. That | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
wild press conference he gave a couple of weeks ago there was one ad | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
lib that did not get repeated which was, I suppose I am a politician | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
now, as if he was humiliated at the idea of being a president. He likes | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
being the businessman with a swagger tweeting around the clock. And | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
campaigning again. He keeps going to what looked like campaign rallies. I | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
disagree with you about him not liking being president. I think he | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
loves the idea of being the president, but the reality is so | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
frustrating on every level, finding he does not have unlimited room for | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
manoeuvre and so many things have been put in place to stop them doing | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
things he would do in the business environment. We have had two more | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
tweets from him this morning, I guess when he woke up. Who was it | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
who secretly said to the Russian president, tell Vladimir that after | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
the election I will have more flexibility? Who was that? Possibly | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
Hillary Clinton. Is it true the Democratic National committee would | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
not allow the FBI access to check server or other equipment after | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
learning it was hacked? Can that be possible? This was all an issue in | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
the campaign. He is now a president. Shall I point out the flaw in Tom's | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
theory. They were not bugging Michael Flynn's phone, it was the | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
Russian Ambassador's telephone they were barking. Mr Neil, I would never | :13:13. | :13:22. | |
contradict you on this programme. But if you suspect there was | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
criminal activity going on, as there was by Michael Flynn, why would you | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
not want to put on a tap? I don't know. That is it for today. | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
I'll be back next week here on BBC One at 11am as usual. | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at midday on BBC Two. | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
But remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:44. | :13:51. |