26/03/2017 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire


26/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:41.:00:44.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

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but do the security services have the resources and

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We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

:00:50.:00:52.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

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Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

:00:57.:01:02.

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

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In Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire, and the party's

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In Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire, after Westminster, is it time to

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look at the Government's and de-radicalisation strategy,

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And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

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panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee

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and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack

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The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,

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but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -

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one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.

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His target was the very heart of our democracy,

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the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres

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of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.

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Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's

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close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity

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at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.

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Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we

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be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary

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response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as

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prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive

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way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and

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national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to

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whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put

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more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor

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sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder

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whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around

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the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,

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as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on

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social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the

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attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to

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the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.

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Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while

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an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the

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weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the

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world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it

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stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for

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years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the

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chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,

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so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of

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London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that

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the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this

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is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think

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from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a

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poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to

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imagine the emergency services and local people, international

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visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our

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Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards

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shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.

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It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values

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that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.

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So, four days after the attack, what more do we know

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The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains

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Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.

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According to a police timeline, that's how long it took

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Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster

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to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...

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to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard

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The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.

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The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:

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"We would like to express our gratitude to the people

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who were with Keith in his last moments and who were

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There was nothing more you could have done,

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you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."

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Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.

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Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp

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The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging

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There should be no place for terrorists to hide.

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We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,

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and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret

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place for terrorists to communicate with each other.

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It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just

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listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,

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legally, through warrantry, but in this situation

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we need to make sure that our intelligence services

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have the ability to get into situations like encrypted

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She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions

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at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out

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But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be

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..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.

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We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,

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the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.

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What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I

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can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,

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because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but

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to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80

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counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,

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using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the

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very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also

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tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring

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this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made

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available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do

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we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired

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or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being

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led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate

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on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the

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attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in

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Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin

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Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last

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year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved

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have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of

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them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians

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in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a

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gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of

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attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at

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least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.

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Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those

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involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is

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going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?

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Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least

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the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the

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only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see

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in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for

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example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the

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security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,

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Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that

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could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at

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least the first indications from what police are saying in London,

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these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of

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the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised

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community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a

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dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised

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individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult

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when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that

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they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the

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work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices

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that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home

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Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps

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like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they

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encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services

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to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for

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that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years

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there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are

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becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more

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and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,

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and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the

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ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not

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when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,

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for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have

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to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of

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these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a

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more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is

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certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying

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to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree

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certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative

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solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide

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but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done

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to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of

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communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our

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lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.

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Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House

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What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of

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Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very

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courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to

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be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident

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of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but

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also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already

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under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and

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security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get

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reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary

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security director, and just as security matters in parliament are

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kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as

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a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the

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issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling

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events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their

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lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is

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it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,

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where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening

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for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led

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to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last

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couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have

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actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would

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expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security

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matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at

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all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the

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security authorities and in particular for the police and direct

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command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it

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because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers

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this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no

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position to comment on the details of the operation but my

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understanding is that the number of people available is what the police

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and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and

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that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it

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not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left

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unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so

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that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able

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to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that

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case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't

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yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody

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involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who

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was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.

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We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were

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concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the

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attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with

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a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it

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is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be

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pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.

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To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the

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witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what

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happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any

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changes need to be made in light of that.

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We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence

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Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced

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the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details

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but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have

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been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has

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been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a

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so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the

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Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this

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simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that

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is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader

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of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals

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who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by

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the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in

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public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been

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reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it

:17:21.:17:23.

raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions

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should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are

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kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both

:17:38.:17:41.

in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the

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palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the

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perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was

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a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at

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carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed

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guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to

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look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.

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There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't

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know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will

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find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If

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you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to

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be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed

:18:42.:18:46.

accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about

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lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is

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important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview

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of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered

:18:59.:19:03.

view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will

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be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins

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our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on

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Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper

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that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's

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not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts

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of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the

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commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime

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Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has

:19:46.:19:50.

been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It

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doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational

:19:56.:20:03.

mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an

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agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies

:20:07.:20:13.

that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police

:20:14.:20:16.

cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all

:20:17.:20:21.

countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it

:20:22.:20:26.

will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?

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Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context

:20:34.:20:37.

of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the

:20:38.:20:42.

departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply

:20:43.:20:47.

not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a

:20:48.:20:52.

discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we

:20:53.:20:55.

all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we

:20:56.:21:00.

will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is

:21:01.:21:02.

possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The

:21:03.:21:19.

question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the

:21:20.:21:21.

subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?

:21:22.:21:24.

Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have

:21:25.:21:29.

to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate

:21:30.:21:34.

the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once

:21:35.:21:38.

David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the

:21:39.:21:44.

national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady

:21:45.:21:49.

progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good

:21:50.:21:54.

piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a

:21:55.:22:02.

substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out

:22:03.:22:06.

some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU

:22:07.:22:11.

programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50

:22:12.:22:18.

billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So

:22:19.:22:24.

50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get

:22:25.:22:29.

into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting

:22:30.:22:34.

very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum

:22:35.:22:42.

there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of

:22:43.:22:46.

separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find

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out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The

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Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which

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is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision

:23:08.:23:11.

of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in

:23:12.:23:15.

a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity

:23:16.:23:20.

and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the

:23:21.:23:23.

Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on

:23:24.:23:29.

Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will

:23:30.:23:33.

see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine

:23:34.:23:39.

thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII

:23:40.:23:44.

powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to

:23:45.:23:50.

avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities

:23:51.:23:57.

Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory

:23:58.:24:01.

footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those

:24:02.:24:08.

EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another

:24:09.:24:15.

regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to

:24:16.:24:20.

have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European

:24:21.:24:31.

regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come

:24:32.:24:36.

in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those

:24:37.:24:41.

powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the

:24:42.:24:44.

parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And

:24:45.:24:49.

if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the

:24:50.:24:55.

Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary

:24:56.:24:58.

legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the

:24:59.:25:03.

constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill

:25:04.:25:08.

and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House

:25:09.:25:12.

of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those

:25:13.:25:18.

powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.

:25:19.:25:23.

David Lidington, thank you for being with us.

:25:24.:25:25.

So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.

:25:26.:25:27.

He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party

:25:28.:25:29.

almost three years ago, but yesterday announced

:25:30.:25:31.

that he was quitting to sit as an independent.

:25:32.:25:33.

His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,

:25:34.:25:35.

"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".

:25:36.:25:38.

But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell

:25:39.:25:42.

criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as

:25:43.:25:44.

Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage

:25:45.:25:49.

was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell

:25:50.:25:51.

opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.

:25:52.:25:58.

Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:25:59.:25:59.

accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances

:26:00.:26:02.

of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,

:26:03.:26:04.

Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,

:26:05.:26:11.

Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.

:26:12.:26:14.

Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have

:26:15.:26:17.

decided that I will be leaving Ukip."

:26:18.:26:20.

When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014

:26:21.:26:22.

he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.

:26:23.:26:25.

"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring

:26:26.:26:28.

This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.

:26:29.:26:36.

We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.

:26:37.:26:43.

Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your

:26:44.:26:52.

only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at

:26:53.:26:58.

a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not

:26:59.:27:03.

surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the

:27:04.:27:08.

past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage

:27:09.:27:11.

certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime

:27:12.:27:16.

which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had

:27:17.:27:19.

done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering

:27:20.:27:23.

over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a

:27:24.:27:31.

more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he

:27:32.:27:34.

expected to be pushed out your national executive committee

:27:35.:27:37.

tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to

:27:38.:27:40.

answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the

:27:41.:27:45.

last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue

:27:46.:27:52.

surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came

:27:53.:27:56.

out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to

:27:57.:28:01.

answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did

:28:02.:28:09.

jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out

:28:10.:28:13.

of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear

:28:14.:28:21.

is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the

:28:22.:28:26.

party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,

:28:27.:28:31.

you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a

:28:32.:28:36.

pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,

:28:37.:28:43.

doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to

:28:44.:28:59.

rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over

:29:00.:29:04.

the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will

:29:05.:29:07.

rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have

:29:08.:29:11.

a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post

:29:12.:29:17.

Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he

:29:18.:29:21.

said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the

:29:22.:29:25.

skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't

:29:26.:29:31.

it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November

:29:32.:29:37.

the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the

:29:38.:29:40.

party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem

:29:41.:29:44.

money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look

:29:45.:29:50.

forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit

:29:51.:29:54.

test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have

:29:55.:30:01.

been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you

:30:02.:30:04.

will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,

:30:05.:30:10.

not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,

:30:11.:30:15.

he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that

:30:16.:30:20.

but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for

:30:21.:30:23.

the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be

:30:24.:30:34.

interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster

:30:35.:30:39.

attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's

:30:40.:30:43.

extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like

:30:44.:30:49.

Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I

:30:50.:30:53.

personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I

:30:54.:30:57.

will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem

:30:58.:31:02.

within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the

:31:03.:31:07.

way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr

:31:08.:31:10.

Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the

:31:11.:31:26.

problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate

:31:27.:31:28.

communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would

:31:29.:31:31.

extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in

:31:32.:31:34.

Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,

:31:35.:31:37.

as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme

:31:38.:31:40.

vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question

:31:41.:31:44.

too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get

:31:45.:31:48.

you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in

:31:49.:31:52.

Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has

:31:53.:31:56.

left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to

:31:57.:32:03.

go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people

:32:04.:32:05.

in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should

:32:06.:32:08.

have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.

:32:09.:32:15.

Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.

:32:16.:32:22.

Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are

:32:23.:32:28.

becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted

:32:29.:32:32.

myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to

:32:33.:32:36.

trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons

:32:37.:32:40.

resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the

:32:41.:32:44.

democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran

:32:45.:32:49.

parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,

:32:50.:32:54.

I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage

:32:55.:32:58.

has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants

:32:59.:33:06.

to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going

:33:07.:33:10.

to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his

:33:11.:33:15.

constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr

:33:16.:33:19.

Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from

:33:20.:33:25.

Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the

:33:26.:33:27.

opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not

:33:28.:33:34.

always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an

:33:35.:33:38.

e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,

:33:39.:33:43.

overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you

:33:44.:33:50.

are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,

:33:51.:33:55.

Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June

:33:56.:34:00.

the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be

:34:01.:34:04.

absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is

:34:05.:34:09.

right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the

:34:10.:34:12.

European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one

:34:13.:34:16.

another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline

:34:17.:34:21.

the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I

:34:22.:34:26.

have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.

:34:27.:34:31.

You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made

:34:32.:34:35.

the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made

:34:36.:34:39.

it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote

:34:40.:34:43.

Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would

:34:44.:34:46.

win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of

:34:47.:34:52.

that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas

:34:53.:35:00.

I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history

:35:01.:35:03.

proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk

:35:04.:35:07.

often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part

:35:08.:35:10.

of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic

:35:11.:35:15.

policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to

:35:16.:35:20.

sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave

:35:21.:35:23.

certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They

:35:24.:35:30.

freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel

:35:31.:35:36.

still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for

:35:37.:35:40.

Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and

:35:41.:35:43.

we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like

:35:44.:35:49.

Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is

:35:50.:35:53.

to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why

:35:54.:35:56.

can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but

:35:57.:36:00.

you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this

:36:01.:36:05.

than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten

:36:06.:36:08.

years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in

:36:09.:36:13.

2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in

:36:14.:36:17.

2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left

:36:18.:36:21.

us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically

:36:22.:36:25.

gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her

:36:26.:36:30.

record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,

:36:31.:36:34.

nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of

:36:35.:36:38.

thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the

:36:39.:36:42.

size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of

:36:43.:36:45.

thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The

:36:46.:36:49.

problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the

:36:50.:36:54.

argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted

:36:55.:36:58.

her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until

:36:59.:37:02.

she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,

:37:03.:37:06.

just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.

:37:07.:37:10.

Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee

:37:11.:37:14.

into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what

:37:15.:37:18.

people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself

:37:19.:37:27.

with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip

:37:28.:37:30.

to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will

:37:31.:37:35.

come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit

:37:36.:37:39.

Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill

:37:40.:37:42.

and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas

:37:43.:37:48.

Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in

:37:49.:37:53.

the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were

:37:54.:37:59.

Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a

:38:00.:38:02.

Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a

:38:03.:38:08.

Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a

:38:09.:38:11.

party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree

:38:12.:38:14.

with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into

:38:15.:38:23.

2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote

:38:24.:38:27.

Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you

:38:28.:38:31.

fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and

:38:32.:38:35.

see. Very well! Thank you both very much.

:38:36.:38:51.

Hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics

:38:52.:38:52.

Coming up today: after the Westminster attack,

:38:53.:38:57.

what now for the Government's anti-radicalisation strategy,

:38:58.:38:59.

regarded as toxic by many Muslim communities in Hull?

:39:00.:39:06.

It would be perverse to have a counterterrorism strategy

:39:07.:39:08.

that didn't include trying to prevent people being radicalised

:39:09.:39:10.

We'll also be looking ahead to the triggering

:39:11.:39:19.

of Article 50 on Wednesday, hearing from the Yorkshire town

:39:20.:39:24.

which voted to remain in the EU by the narrowest of margins.

:39:25.:39:27.

We're joined by Craig Whittaker, Conservative MP for Calder Valley

:39:28.:39:29.

and by Richard Corbett, Labour MEP for Yorkshire

:39:30.:39:34.

and the Humber and in the London studio today is Lord Paul Scriven,

:39:35.:39:38.

Lib Dem peer and Sheffield City Council.

:39:39.:39:39.

It was a normal day in the House of Commons.

:39:40.:39:43.

Prime Minister's Questions were over, voting had begun,

:39:44.:39:45.

Our MPs tell us exactly what happened.

:39:46.:39:50.

There were a bunch of people running towards me saying, get back,

:39:51.:39:53.

I had a couple of constituents that had come down to see

:39:54.:39:59.

I had walked them out of the building, gone back

:40:00.:40:05.

inside to vote and within moments, they sent me a text saying,

:40:06.:40:08.

something has just happened, all the barriers are going up around

:40:09.:40:11.

Parliament, we don't know what's going on.

:40:12.:40:16.

Another MP friend of mine wanted and was white as a sheet.

:40:17.:40:18.

He said he has just seen someone shot right in front

:40:19.:40:22.

of him and within minutes, there was mayhem outside and armed

:40:23.:40:25.

police telling us to get away from the windows.

:40:26.:40:32.

Suddenly, seven people came running up the stairs and they said

:40:33.:40:34.

there is a man with a gun and a knife and we've been

:40:35.:40:38.

We hid in my office and the staff were leaving, so I shouted

:40:39.:40:42.

at my staff to get back in the office because we've

:40:43.:40:45.

Get back in the office, turn your phones off, close

:40:46.:40:48.

There were six of us who were members of the House

:40:49.:40:58.

of Lords and I remember getting in and just feeling absolutely

:40:59.:41:01.

terrified and we were standing with our backs to the door in case

:41:02.:41:04.

We genuinely thought there was a gunman on the loose in the cafe.

:41:05.:41:10.

I am now going to suspend the sitting of the house.

:41:11.:41:14.

This house is now suspended but please wait here.

:41:15.:41:28.

Parliament has been disrupted by this terrorist incident

:41:29.:41:33.

and we have got to make sure that we find out what happened

:41:34.:41:36.

It's quarter past four and we are still locked in the chamber.

:41:37.:41:52.

All of our thoughts are with the people who have been

:41:53.:41:55.

injured in this attack outside Parliament on Westminster Bridge.

:41:56.:41:57.

Our hearts go out to them to their families at

:41:58.:41:59.

Just so much sorrow for the people who died

:42:00.:42:07.

I think we're all really struggling with the death of a police officer.

:42:08.:42:17.

The police are phenomenal, we saw them letting people

:42:18.:42:20.

We saw tourists taking selfies with them, is just amazing,

:42:21.:42:25.

they go beyond the call of duty every day to think he died

:42:26.:42:28.

He didn't succeed, he got ten yards into the gate with an appalling

:42:29.:42:37.

trail of devastation and death and terror behind him.

:42:38.:42:39.

But he didn't succeed in his objective.

:42:40.:42:52.

A number of our MPs talking about their experience on Wednesday,

:42:53.:42:55.

a day I'm sure many will never forget.

:42:56.:42:58.

Craig Whittaker, do you feel less safe about going

:42:59.:43:00.

The response from the police, from the ambulance service,

:43:01.:43:12.

from all bluelight services and our armed officers

:43:13.:43:18.

was incredibly quick, but that is the most secure building

:43:19.:43:20.

probably in London from a police point of view and as long

:43:21.:43:23.

as we carry on being aware of what might happen

:43:24.:43:27.

when we're doing surgeries, that's the place we are vulnerable

:43:28.:43:29.

and most of our offices and our homes are quite secure

:43:30.:43:33.

but it's when we're out and about and if you thought

:43:34.:43:36.

about it, you wouldn't do the job, so I don't think

:43:37.:43:39.

Lord Scriven, I know you were at Westminster on Wednesday.

:43:40.:43:53.

When you hear the reports of what happened, MPs locking

:43:54.:43:56.

themselves in cupboards, it all sounds very chaotic.

:43:57.:43:57.

Do you think the Parliamentary authorities were really prepared

:43:58.:44:00.

I heard the initial commotion, I heard the shots and within minutes,

:44:01.:44:11.

messages were being sent around the palace about what to do.

:44:12.:44:20.

Clearly the intruder, the cold-blooded murderer,

:44:21.:44:22.

was shot quite fast as he breached the security, but in any

:44:23.:44:25.

I think we have to stay calm, take a step back and allow

:44:26.:44:37.

the authorities to do an analysis of what worked,

:44:38.:44:39.

whether anything else needs to be strengthened.

:44:40.:44:40.

There is a balance here, this is Parliament.

:44:41.:44:43.

It's an open building for our democracy but it has to be

:44:44.:44:47.

secured as well and that's the balance that the

:44:48.:44:50.

But it was scary, it was a sad day, but on the whole things went well.

:44:51.:45:01.

Richard Corbett, presumably you were at the European Parliament

:45:02.:45:03.

It was a year to the day that the bombs went off

:45:04.:45:10.

in the Brussels metro close to the parliament building

:45:11.:45:14.

and there had been a ceremony that very morning.

:45:15.:45:18.

Little did we know that same afternoon there would be

:45:19.:45:20.

a similar, equally alarming attack on Westminster.

:45:21.:45:26.

Craig Whittaker, the debate is turning inevitably

:45:27.:45:28.

to whether our police should be routinely armed.

:45:29.:45:30.

I think ultimately it's got to be a decision for the police

:45:31.:45:42.

and the ones it's going to affect, they're the ones that need

:45:43.:45:45.

The only word of caution I would say is that in countries where they have

:45:46.:45:53.

armed police like America we see great cases of whether there

:45:54.:45:57.

are incidents involving the police, the gangs have guns as well.

:45:58.:46:00.

We don't have that currently as a rule in this country.

:46:01.:46:03.

We do have a big problem with knives but guns we don't,

:46:04.:46:15.

so I think there will be debate to come in the future.

:46:16.:46:18.

I don't have the answer but I think the police are to make the ultimate

:46:19.:46:21.

decision but I think we need to have an open, honest

:46:22.:46:24.

We know that police here have increased

:46:25.:46:27.

on patrol but Paul Scriven, would you like to see routinely

:46:28.:46:31.

armed police officers on the streets of Sheffield?

:46:32.:46:33.

Absolutely not for two reasons, the first, Craig just said,

:46:34.:46:38.

where the police have guns, the gun crime rate is much higher.

:46:39.:46:41.

For every 100,000 people in the UK, 0.3 gun crime.

:46:42.:46:46.

In America where they routinely arm police, 10.5 for every

:46:47.:46:49.

Secondly and just as importantly, if we were, the terrorists

:46:50.:46:55.

would win because we would be changing our very way of life

:46:56.:46:59.

to actually respond to them in a way which I think

:47:00.:47:03.

would undermine our policing and our consent within communities

:47:04.:47:06.

with which the police work so absolutely not.

:47:07.:47:11.

I think this would be dangerous both in terms of crime rate rising

:47:12.:47:17.

but also undermining the very values of what it means to be British

:47:18.:47:20.

and British policing in our country and we cannot allow terrorists

:47:21.:47:22.

When you look at European countries we would regard as liberal,

:47:23.:47:31.

tolerant democracies, police there are routinely armed.

:47:32.:47:32.

It varies from country to country and it also varies how they do it,

:47:33.:47:38.

and what sort of culture comes out of that.

:47:39.:47:42.

That's partly because of the attacks last year, but if you look

:47:43.:47:51.

at Switzerland or Scandinavian countries, the police

:47:52.:47:54.

are armed but not in a gung ho way, shall we say.

:47:55.:48:01.

There seems to be little political appetite for an immediate security

:48:02.:48:04.

crackdown following the attack but we're asking today,

:48:05.:48:10.

is it time to look again at the Prevent anti-radicalisation

:48:11.:48:12.

programme which is a key part of the country's

:48:13.:48:15.

Despite having a toxic reputation within many Muslim communities,

:48:16.:48:18.

the former Home Secretary and Hull MP Alan Johnson regarded as vital.

:48:19.:48:24.

It's very important and what's important to that is neighbourhood

:48:25.:48:26.

policing teams in every community picking up intelligence.

:48:27.:48:32.

People don't often, if they see something suspicious that might mean

:48:33.:48:35.

a youngster has been radicalised, they don't often try

:48:36.:48:37.

to find out the number of the Counterterrorism Unit

:48:38.:48:42.

in London, they will go to a local police officer who they know,

:48:43.:48:46.

and neighbourhood police are crucial on many levels but particularly

:48:47.:48:48.

There are things you can do, I don't think we got it right

:48:49.:48:58.

when we first introduced it, but it would be perverse

:48:59.:49:00.

to have a counterterrorism strategy that didn't include trying

:49:01.:49:03.

to prevent people being radicalised in the first place.

:49:04.:49:05.

Joining us for our next discussion is Iqbal Bhana.

:49:06.:49:09.

He's deputy chair of the Government's hate

:49:10.:49:11.

Alan Johnson says the prevent strategy is still vital.

:49:12.:49:16.

I totally agree, it is fundamental to what we're trying to do.

:49:17.:49:25.

My concern is that it's not working at the moment and we to go back

:49:26.:49:30.

to the drawing board and reconfigure it and make sure it does

:49:31.:49:34.

what he talks about and that is, it works at a neighbourhood level.

:49:35.:49:37.

I think the way the strategy was developed did not take into good

:49:38.:49:45.

consideration the community was supposed to be in that

:49:46.:49:47.

and the community felt was being imposed upon them rather

:49:48.:49:49.

than working with them and that's a concern that has been expressed

:49:50.:49:52.

right from the outset by the Muslim community throughout the country.

:49:53.:49:55.

Craig Whittaker, the former co-chairman of the Conservative

:49:56.:49:57.

Party says the Prevent strategy has become toxic within

:49:58.:50:00.

I don't know if it's right is the honest answer

:50:01.:50:07.

but like all these things, they evolve over time

:50:08.:50:10.

and if what we're being told is that it does need a revamp,

:50:11.:50:15.

whether that's going back to the drawing board or indeed

:50:16.:50:22.

enhancing some of the aspects of it, I do know the Government have

:50:23.:50:26.

But what that looks like I guess it will come out of some white

:50:27.:50:30.

paper or consultation with the Muslim community.

:50:31.:50:33.

Many of the programmes came as a result of the 2005 London

:50:34.:50:36.

bombings, effectively put into place by Tony Blair's Government.

:50:37.:50:38.

Do you think it is time we looked at these again?

:50:39.:50:44.

Alan Johnson is right, we need something but it's got

:50:45.:50:47.

to work and has to be reformed and improved.

:50:48.:50:51.

Working with the community, but also making sure no community

:50:52.:50:53.

feels that it is targeted, especially the Muslim community

:50:54.:50:58.

because let's not forget, they are not the only community

:50:59.:51:00.

from which terrorists have sometimes come.

:51:01.:51:03.

The second-biggest terrorist atrocity in Europe over the last few

:51:04.:51:09.

years was by a radical Christian, Anders Brevik in Norway

:51:10.:51:12.

when he machine-gunned the teenagers at the holiday camp so we have to be

:51:13.:51:15.

aware not to target and stigmatise any particular community.

:51:16.:51:24.

It's interesting that radicalisation programmes are largely aimed

:51:25.:51:26.

at young Muslim men, not exclusively but largely aimed

:51:27.:51:30.

at young men, and yet the attacker at Westminster

:51:31.:51:32.

was a 52-year-old man, so how do you counter

:51:33.:51:34.

That is one of the conundrums that everybody has been

:51:35.:51:46.

The normal profile of an extremist radicalist

:51:47.:51:50.

This is completely different but it's not different in a real sense.

:51:51.:51:57.

If you look at one of my friends who was brutally

:51:58.:51:59.

Jo Cox, her murderer was 52 and he was a lone wolf.

:52:00.:52:03.

People must have known that he had a tendency for extreme

:52:04.:52:07.

But that is completely unknown to the services.

:52:08.:52:14.

Before we finish on this, has there been evidence of a rise

:52:15.:52:17.

in hate crimes since Wednesday's tragic events at Westminster?

:52:18.:52:24.

My information is coming from an organisation the Government

:52:25.:52:26.

set up and there has been some spike in the number of attacks.

:52:27.:52:30.

I was talking to a taxi driver here yesterday who said

:52:31.:52:33.

on the evening of the attack in London, a taxi driver

:52:34.:52:36.

I can't confirm it but apparently that happened.

:52:37.:52:44.

Other than that, I've not seen anything else but today at mosque,

:52:45.:52:51.

my imam made it clear we should not accept these people as Muslims

:52:52.:52:55.

and should not term them as Muslims in the Muslim community.

:52:56.:52:58.

We should not be answering for the actions of these people.

:52:59.:53:01.

The Government has confirmed that the formal process of leaving

:53:02.:53:04.

Is the triggering of negotiations to leave the EU seen as a threat

:53:05.:53:09.

to a prosperous future or the path to more opportunity?

:53:10.:53:11.

Len Tingle has been to Harrogate, a town which voted to remain

:53:12.:53:14.

This woman comes from the Czech Republic.

:53:15.:53:25.

She's one of the 70-strong workforce in this hotel here in Harrogate.

:53:26.:53:28.

Well over 40 of them are EU nationals.

:53:29.:53:33.

We couldn't run a business without them, so it has caused some

:53:34.:53:36.

I've had one person leave recently and go home because of the whole

:53:37.:53:44.

Brexit situation and the nervousness that that has left and

:53:45.:53:48.

a feeling of discomfort about their safety and future.

:53:49.:53:51.

I've got one or two others who are considering that as well,

:53:52.:53:54.

Surprisingly, general manager Simon Cotton voted to Leave

:53:55.:53:57.

He is anxious about the future of his EU immigrant workforce,

:53:58.:54:01.

but believes common sense will find a solution.

:54:02.:54:07.

I think we should have more immigration, just

:54:08.:54:12.

better controls on it, so who's coming in, what sort

:54:13.:54:16.

of skills they can provide and if they can help drive

:54:17.:54:18.

the economy, because we need more people in this country

:54:19.:54:21.

Just across town, formal Royal Engineer Paul Rawlinson started

:54:22.:54:28.

off his coffee and cake shop when he left the army

:54:29.:54:31.

He voted to Remain and he's very worried about the EU

:54:32.:54:34.

Some of my team were pretty upset, especially the EU nationals.

:54:35.:54:38.

Some were saying, "OK, we're not welcome here any more,

:54:39.:54:40.

we're going to leave," but I think that has levelled out a little bit.

:54:41.:54:51.

Most of us were a bit sad and it's just not the way

:54:52.:54:55.

It's not surprising that should be differences of opinion

:54:56.:54:58.

here as to what economic deal there should be once

:54:59.:55:01.

Harrogate was one of just three places across

:55:02.:55:03.

the whole of Yorkshire - Leeds and Yorkshire bring the others

:55:04.:55:06.

- that voted in favour of staying in the EU.

:55:07.:55:09.

It was a close-run thing - 51% said stay, 49% said leave.

:55:10.:55:11.

The falling value of the pound is highlighted by both

:55:12.:55:14.

businesses, but they come to totally different conclusions.

:55:15.:55:20.

We've got a number of airports on our doorstep and people can fly

:55:21.:55:26.

in for short breaks or longer holidays and the dollar

:55:27.:55:28.

Elements like coffee which are traded in the dollar,

:55:29.:55:37.

the pound against that currency means that prices have risen

:55:38.:55:40.

and we've already had to add that on to our guests.

:55:41.:55:44.

If the different views here are anything to go by,

:55:45.:55:48.

serving up a Brexit deal acceptable to all is going to

:55:49.:55:51.

Various thoughts from businesses in Harrogate.

:55:52.:56:01.

Let's go back to Lord Paul Scriven who's at Westminster today.

:56:02.:56:04.

Article 50 triggered on Wednesday, three more sleeps!

:56:05.:56:06.

Have you started breaking out in a cold sweat?

:56:07.:56:08.

As you can see from my top lip, possibly!

:56:09.:56:15.

What we will do in three days is basically slam our foot

:56:16.:56:22.

on an accelerator in the car, not clear whether we've got

:56:23.:56:25.

the steering wheel and not clear whether the brakes work.

:56:26.:56:28.

It seems to be acceleration regardless of what the consequences

:56:29.:56:34.

are and as we start to go forward, we have to see this is going to be

:56:35.:56:38.

really complex with some really big issues and even if we are determined

:56:39.:56:41.

to come out of the single market it will have an economic catastrophe

:56:42.:56:44.

for areas like Yorkshire and the Humber so this

:56:45.:56:46.

is not a day to celebrate, it's a day to be worried as far

:56:47.:56:50.

Richard Corbett, Brexit is happening, isn't it about time

:56:51.:56:56.

we all started working together to try to make it a success?

:56:57.:57:04.

It's the mother of divorce cases with several thousand subjects that

:57:05.:57:07.

at some point you need to find a solution to but there is a choice

:57:08.:57:10.

to be made by Britain going into these negotiations,

:57:11.:57:13.

are we going to try to stay inside the customs union or not?

:57:14.:57:17.

Do we want a barrier for our manufacturers,

:57:18.:57:18.

Do we want to keep how universities out of European research funding?

:57:19.:57:33.

Do we want to affect passport services across Europe?

:57:34.:57:35.

Do we want to stop police corroborating with Europe?

:57:36.:57:37.

The Government seems to be embarking down those roads and in that case,

:57:38.:57:46.

there will be many who voted Leave who will say, that's

:57:47.:57:48.

not what I was told, that's not what I will too far.

:57:49.:57:53.

A lot of questions there and we don't have time

:57:54.:57:57.

to answer them all today, but the point that Richard Corbett

:57:58.:58:00.

makes is that many people who voted Leave, are they going

:58:01.:58:03.

It's interesting Richard took the negative view

:58:04.:58:08.

There is a positive future that as well.

:58:09.:58:15.

For Calder Valley businesses, 90% of businesses are manufacturers

:58:16.:58:17.

We are still in but we also exporting not just to the EU

:58:18.:58:25.

but other countries as well so there are pros and cons.

:58:26.:58:29.

I don't get the negativity here and I voted Remain.

:58:30.:58:35.

I accept we've got to move on and this is what the British

:58:36.:58:40.

We have a great Prime Minister who will get on and get the best

:58:41.:58:44.

We've been arguing, talking, discussing, debating about just

:58:45.:58:49.

triggering the process which starts next Wednesday.

:58:50.:58:51.

Richard Corbett, you predicted this economic meltdown would begin

:58:52.:58:57.

after June 23 last year and it didn't.

:58:58.:58:59.

Well, the Government didn't start the process,

:59:00.:59:01.

Secondly, there are measures taken, the pound was devalued by 20%

:59:02.:59:15.

which will feed through to higher prices for food and fuel.

:59:16.:59:20.

The Government has borrowed a heck of a lot more money to pay for this

:59:21.:59:24.

If it is a costly Brexit, a damaging Brexit, very few people

:59:25.:59:32.

voted for Brexit at any cost, they voted for Brexit at no cost

:59:33.:59:35.

because they were told it will not cost money, it will bring in money

:59:36.:59:39.

These people are entitled to demand a rethink.

:59:40.:59:46.

Lord Scriven, are you going to try to derail the Brexit process?

:59:47.:59:58.

I'm going to make sure that British businesses and British people

:59:59.:00:01.

have the opportunities that they have now to flourish

:00:02.:00:07.

and succeed but I worry that with a hard Brexit,

:00:08.:00:09.

those opportunities are going to go and I'm going to hold the Government

:00:10.:00:13.

going to be sun-filled meadows when we leave to account and let

:00:14.:00:17.

the British people know exactly what the implications

:00:18.:00:19.

Are you going to eat your hat if at the end of the two-year

:00:20.:00:25.

process, it's a better outcome for the UK?

:00:26.:00:29.

I don't think it's about eating my hat, what I'd say to people

:00:30.:00:34.

who are now negotiating, give us some security that

:00:35.:00:44.

what you're doing will be better, because sound bites like "red,

:00:45.:00:48.

white and blue Brexit" or "Brexit means Brexit" is not

:00:49.:00:50.

solid basis for businesses and people to understand

:00:51.:00:53.

The European Parliament will ultimately have a vote

:00:54.:00:56.

on the Brexit deal, what happens if Europe says no,

:00:57.:00:59.

The more important question is, what happens if the House of Commons

:01:00.:01:05.

which has been promised a meaningful vote takes one look at the deal

:01:06.:01:08.

and if it's a bad one, they say no to it?

:01:09.:01:10.

That's why I and the Liberal Democrats support giving the final

:01:11.:01:17.

If we trust the public to say, yes, we want to go out,

:01:18.:01:24.

then once the final deal is known, we should trust them to say,

:01:25.:01:27.

is this in the interest of our community and our country,

:01:28.:01:30.

Briefly Craig Whittaker, this could be cleared

:01:31.:01:33.

Theresa May could try to get herself a brand-new mandate.

:01:34.:01:41.

Thank you very much to Craig Whittaker,

:01:42.:01:46.

We had back to Andrew Neil and London.

:01:47.:01:53.

So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday

:01:54.:02:10.

at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document

:02:11.:02:13.

Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -

:02:14.:02:17.

overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,

:02:18.:02:19.

And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,

:02:20.:02:22.

will trigger Article 50, formally starting

:02:23.:02:23.

The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,

:02:24.:02:27.

made an appeal for unity at the gathering.

:02:28.:02:33.

Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations

:02:34.:02:38.

that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.

:02:39.:02:46.

At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,

:02:47.:02:49.

they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic

:02:50.:02:53.

circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith

:02:54.:02:55.

Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on

:02:56.:03:15.

that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important

:03:16.:03:19.

figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our

:03:20.:03:23.

divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new

:03:24.:03:29.

crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international

:03:30.:03:33.

trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,

:03:34.:03:38.

by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is

:03:39.:03:45.

inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member

:03:46.:03:48.

states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because

:03:49.:03:52.

that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I

:03:53.:03:57.

think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.

:03:58.:04:00.

Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow

:04:01.:04:06.

setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise

:04:07.:04:09.

Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that

:04:10.:04:27.

doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would

:04:28.:04:31.

be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member

:04:32.:04:33.

states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is

:04:34.:04:36.

effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is

:04:37.:04:39.

not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent

:04:40.:04:41.

but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the

:04:42.:04:43.

Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it

:04:44.:04:46.

ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification

:04:47.:04:48.

process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:

:04:49.:04:52.

Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact

:04:53.:04:57.

that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,

:04:58.:05:02.

there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and

:05:03.:05:07.

quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and

:05:08.:05:12.

disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries

:05:13.:05:17.

celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful

:05:18.:05:20.

movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not

:05:21.:05:27.

there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there

:05:28.:05:31.

now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that

:05:32.:05:37.

we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!

:05:38.:05:43.

I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place

:05:44.:05:49.

envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why

:05:50.:05:52.

people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look

:05:53.:05:58.

at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not

:05:59.:06:03.

possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they

:06:04.:06:10.

will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?

:06:11.:06:14.

I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be

:06:15.:06:18.

surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal

:06:19.:06:21.

decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to

:06:22.:06:26.

buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed

:06:27.:06:30.

and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can

:06:31.:06:33.

happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany

:06:34.:06:37.

which could really result in a change of Government... That is the

:06:38.:06:50.

big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw

:06:51.:06:53.

that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into

:06:54.:06:55.

the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory

:06:56.:06:58.

observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,

:06:59.:07:01.

if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional

:07:02.:07:05.

agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council

:07:06.:07:08.

doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French

:07:09.:07:12.

elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second

:07:13.:07:15.

round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be

:07:16.:07:22.

representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine

:07:23.:07:27.

le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a

:07:28.:07:31.

party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to

:07:32.:07:35.

sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote

:07:36.:07:39.

d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that

:07:40.:07:43.

and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no

:07:44.:07:49.

longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form

:07:50.:08:02.

a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you

:08:03.:08:05.

know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we

:08:06.:08:08.

are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big

:08:09.:08:11.

task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional

:08:12.:08:13.

arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year

:08:14.:08:17.

timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us

:08:18.:08:20.

on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a

:08:21.:08:24.

meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is

:08:25.:08:28.

going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and

:08:29.:08:32.

agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government

:08:33.:08:36.

eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a

:08:37.:08:40.

take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have

:08:41.:08:45.

campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it

:08:46.:08:48.

wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our

:08:49.:08:52.

parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the

:08:53.:08:57.

negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated

:08:58.:09:00.

areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the

:09:01.:09:04.

campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council

:09:05.:09:10.

and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

:09:11.:09:15.

You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity

:09:16.:09:21.

for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the

:09:22.:09:23.

Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time

:09:24.:09:27.

devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog

:09:28.:09:31.

about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU

:09:32.:09:42.

march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to

:09:43.:09:47.

Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the

:09:48.:09:52.

European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of

:09:53.:09:57.

national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people

:09:58.:10:06.

like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is

:10:07.:10:11.

for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it

:10:12.:10:16.

happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were

:10:17.:10:20.

lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,

:10:21.:10:24.

if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their

:10:25.:10:27.

minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even

:10:28.:10:33.

begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.

:10:34.:10:37.

Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that

:10:38.:10:42.

credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the

:10:43.:10:47.

Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even

:10:48.:10:52.

then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's

:10:53.:10:55.

interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free

:10:56.:11:14.

movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single

:11:15.:11:17.

market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that

:11:18.:11:20.

outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are

:11:21.:11:23.

pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least

:11:24.:11:25.

let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea

:11:26.:11:28.

of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really

:11:29.:11:30.

did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want

:11:31.:11:33.

external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the

:11:34.:11:40.

momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the

:11:41.:11:44.

banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news

:11:45.:11:48.

was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force

:11:49.:11:53.

from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our

:11:54.:11:58.

resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right

:11:59.:12:02.

that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and

:12:03.:12:05.

that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining

:12:06.:12:09.

movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we

:12:10.:12:15.

will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course

:12:16.:12:18.

those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been

:12:19.:12:23.

such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she

:12:24.:12:27.

blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about

:12:28.:12:33.

this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's

:12:34.:12:40.

job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think

:12:41.:12:43.

you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and

:12:44.:12:48.

everywhere else where there are British citizens would have

:12:49.:12:51.

responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU

:12:52.:12:54.

counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that

:12:55.:12:58.

until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk

:12:59.:13:02.

about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a

:13:03.:13:06.

better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU

:13:07.:13:11.

citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow

:13:12.:13:15.

at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.

:13:16.:13:18.

And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow

:13:19.:13:20.

night from Birmingham - with guests including

:13:21.:13:21.

the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,

:13:22.:13:23.

former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -

:13:24.:13:26.

I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.

:13:27.:13:32.

Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's

:13:33.:13:34.

MUSIC: The Elements by Tom Lehrer

:13:35.:14:41.

# There's Attenborough, micro.bit, The Bottom Line and In Our Time

:14:42.:14:45.

# And Terrific Scientific and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind

:14:46.:14:47.

# And BBC Food, Alphablocks, Forces of Nature With Brian Cox

:14:48.:14:50.

# A Midsummer Night's Dream and Springwatch. #

:14:51.:14:53.

Every element of wonder - available across the BBC.

:14:54.:15:02.

indecent behaviour. Evelyn Waugh's classic novel.

:15:03.:15:03.

I expect you'll want to become a schoolmaster?

:15:04.:15:04.

That's what most of the gentlemen does that get sent down for

:15:05.:15:07.

indecent behaviour. Evelyn Waugh's classic novel.

:15:08.:15:09.

Have you ever been in love, Mr Pennyfeather? No, not yet.

:15:10.:15:13.

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