Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
In Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire, and the party's | :01:06. | :01:16. | |
In Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire, after Westminster, is it time to | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
look at the Government's and de-radicalisation strategy, | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:04. | :02:04. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:05. | :02:13. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:14. | :02:21. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:18. | :03:19. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:16. | :05:26. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:35. | :05:36. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:15. | :06:23. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:39. | :06:47. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:56. | :07:03. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:07. | :12:08. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:09. | :12:17. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:39. | :12:47. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:04. | :15:05. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:38. | :16:46. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:03. | :18:14. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:03. | :21:19. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:20. | :21:21. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:55. | :22:02. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:35. | :22:42. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:51. | :23:01. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:21. | :24:31. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:24. | :25:25. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:50. | :25:51. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :25:59. | :25:59. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:21. | :26:22. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:44. | :26:52. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:24. | :27:31. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:14. | :28:21. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:44. | :28:59. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:24. | :30:34. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:11. | :31:26. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:27. | :31:28. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:04. | :32:05. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :32:59. | :33:06. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:53. | :35:00. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:19. | :37:27. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:15. | :38:23. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very much. | :38:36. | :38:51. | |
Hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics | :38:52. | :38:52. | |
Coming up today: after the Westminster attack, | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
what now for the Government's anti-radicalisation strategy, | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
regarded as toxic by many Muslim communities in Hull? | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
It would be perverse to have a counterterrorism strategy | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
that didn't include trying to prevent people being radicalised | :39:09. | :39:10. | |
We'll also be looking ahead to the triggering | :39:11. | :39:19. | |
of Article 50 on Wednesday, hearing from the Yorkshire town | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
which voted to remain in the EU by the narrowest of margins. | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
We're joined by Craig Whittaker, Conservative MP for Calder Valley | :39:28. | :39:29. | |
and by Richard Corbett, Labour MEP for Yorkshire | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
and the Humber and in the London studio today is Lord Paul Scriven, | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
Lib Dem peer and Sheffield City Council. | :39:39. | :39:39. | |
It was a normal day in the House of Commons. | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
Prime Minister's Questions were over, voting had begun, | :39:44. | :39:45. | |
Our MPs tell us exactly what happened. | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
There were a bunch of people running towards me saying, get back, | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
I had a couple of constituents that had come down to see | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
I had walked them out of the building, gone back | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
inside to vote and within moments, they sent me a text saying, | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
something has just happened, all the barriers are going up around | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
Parliament, we don't know what's going on. | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
Another MP friend of mine wanted and was white as a sheet. | :40:17. | :40:18. | |
He said he has just seen someone shot right in front | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
of him and within minutes, there was mayhem outside and armed | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
police telling us to get away from the windows. | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
Suddenly, seven people came running up the stairs and they said | :40:33. | :40:34. | |
there is a man with a gun and a knife and we've been | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
We hid in my office and the staff were leaving, so I shouted | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
at my staff to get back in the office because we've | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
Get back in the office, turn your phones off, close | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
There were six of us who were members of the House | :40:49. | :40:58. | |
of Lords and I remember getting in and just feeling absolutely | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
terrified and we were standing with our backs to the door in case | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
We genuinely thought there was a gunman on the loose in the cafe. | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
I am now going to suspend the sitting of the house. | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
This house is now suspended but please wait here. | :41:15. | :41:28. | |
Parliament has been disrupted by this terrorist incident | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
and we have got to make sure that we find out what happened | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
It's quarter past four and we are still locked in the chamber. | :41:37. | :41:52. | |
All of our thoughts are with the people who have been | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
injured in this attack outside Parliament on Westminster Bridge. | :41:56. | :41:57. | |
Our hearts go out to them to their families at | :41:58. | :41:59. | |
Just so much sorrow for the people who died | :42:00. | :42:07. | |
I think we're all really struggling with the death of a police officer. | :42:08. | :42:17. | |
The police are phenomenal, we saw them letting people | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
We saw tourists taking selfies with them, is just amazing, | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
they go beyond the call of duty every day to think he died | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
He didn't succeed, he got ten yards into the gate with an appalling | :42:29. | :42:37. | |
trail of devastation and death and terror behind him. | :42:38. | :42:39. | |
But he didn't succeed in his objective. | :42:40. | :42:52. | |
A number of our MPs talking about their experience on Wednesday, | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
a day I'm sure many will never forget. | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
Craig Whittaker, do you feel less safe about going | :42:59. | :43:00. | |
The response from the police, from the ambulance service, | :43:01. | :43:12. | |
from all bluelight services and our armed officers | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
was incredibly quick, but that is the most secure building | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
probably in London from a police point of view and as long | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
as we carry on being aware of what might happen | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
when we're doing surgeries, that's the place we are vulnerable | :43:28. | :43:29. | |
and most of our offices and our homes are quite secure | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
but it's when we're out and about and if you thought | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
about it, you wouldn't do the job, so I don't think | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
Lord Scriven, I know you were at Westminster on Wednesday. | :43:40. | :43:53. | |
When you hear the reports of what happened, MPs locking | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
themselves in cupboards, it all sounds very chaotic. | :43:57. | :43:57. | |
Do you think the Parliamentary authorities were really prepared | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
I heard the initial commotion, I heard the shots and within minutes, | :44:01. | :44:11. | |
messages were being sent around the palace about what to do. | :44:12. | :44:20. | |
Clearly the intruder, the cold-blooded murderer, | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
was shot quite fast as he breached the security, but in any | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
I think we have to stay calm, take a step back and allow | :44:26. | :44:37. | |
the authorities to do an analysis of what worked, | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
whether anything else needs to be strengthened. | :44:40. | :44:40. | |
There is a balance here, this is Parliament. | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
It's an open building for our democracy but it has to be | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
secured as well and that's the balance that the | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
But it was scary, it was a sad day, but on the whole things went well. | :44:51. | :45:01. | |
Richard Corbett, presumably you were at the European Parliament | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
It was a year to the day that the bombs went off | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
in the Brussels metro close to the parliament building | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
and there had been a ceremony that very morning. | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
Little did we know that same afternoon there would be | :45:19. | :45:20. | |
a similar, equally alarming attack on Westminster. | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
Craig Whittaker, the debate is turning inevitably | :45:27. | :45:28. | |
to whether our police should be routinely armed. | :45:29. | :45:30. | |
I think ultimately it's got to be a decision for the police | :45:31. | :45:42. | |
and the ones it's going to affect, they're the ones that need | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
The only word of caution I would say is that in countries where they have | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
armed police like America we see great cases of whether there | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
are incidents involving the police, the gangs have guns as well. | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
We don't have that currently as a rule in this country. | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
We do have a big problem with knives but guns we don't, | :46:04. | :46:15. | |
so I think there will be debate to come in the future. | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
I don't have the answer but I think the police are to make the ultimate | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
decision but I think we need to have an open, honest | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
We know that police here have increased | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
on patrol but Paul Scriven, would you like to see routinely | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
armed police officers on the streets of Sheffield? | :46:32. | :46:33. | |
Absolutely not for two reasons, the first, Craig just said, | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
where the police have guns, the gun crime rate is much higher. | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
For every 100,000 people in the UK, 0.3 gun crime. | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
In America where they routinely arm police, 10.5 for every | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
Secondly and just as importantly, if we were, the terrorists | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
would win because we would be changing our very way of life | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
to actually respond to them in a way which I think | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
would undermine our policing and our consent within communities | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
with which the police work so absolutely not. | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
I think this would be dangerous both in terms of crime rate rising | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
but also undermining the very values of what it means to be British | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
and British policing in our country and we cannot allow terrorists | :47:21. | :47:22. | |
When you look at European countries we would regard as liberal, | :47:23. | :47:31. | |
tolerant democracies, police there are routinely armed. | :47:32. | :47:32. | |
It varies from country to country and it also varies how they do it, | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
and what sort of culture comes out of that. | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
That's partly because of the attacks last year, but if you look | :47:43. | :47:51. | |
at Switzerland or Scandinavian countries, the police | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
are armed but not in a gung ho way, shall we say. | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
There seems to be little political appetite for an immediate security | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
crackdown following the attack but we're asking today, | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
is it time to look again at the Prevent anti-radicalisation | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
programme which is a key part of the country's | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
Despite having a toxic reputation within many Muslim communities, | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
the former Home Secretary and Hull MP Alan Johnson regarded as vital. | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
It's very important and what's important to that is neighbourhood | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
policing teams in every community picking up intelligence. | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
People don't often, if they see something suspicious that might mean | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
a youngster has been radicalised, they don't often try | :48:36. | :48:37. | |
to find out the number of the Counterterrorism Unit | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
in London, they will go to a local police officer who they know, | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
and neighbourhood police are crucial on many levels but particularly | :48:47. | :48:48. | |
There are things you can do, I don't think we got it right | :48:49. | :48:58. | |
when we first introduced it, but it would be perverse | :48:59. | :49:00. | |
to have a counterterrorism strategy that didn't include trying | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
to prevent people being radicalised in the first place. | :49:04. | :49:05. | |
Joining us for our next discussion is Iqbal Bhana. | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
He's deputy chair of the Government's hate | :49:10. | :49:11. | |
Alan Johnson says the prevent strategy is still vital. | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
I totally agree, it is fundamental to what we're trying to do. | :49:17. | :49:25. | |
My concern is that it's not working at the moment and we to go back | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
to the drawing board and reconfigure it and make sure it does | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
what he talks about and that is, it works at a neighbourhood level. | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
I think the way the strategy was developed did not take into good | :49:38. | :49:45. | |
consideration the community was supposed to be in that | :49:46. | :49:47. | |
and the community felt was being imposed upon them rather | :49:48. | :49:49. | |
than working with them and that's a concern that has been expressed | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
right from the outset by the Muslim community throughout the country. | :49:53. | :49:55. | |
Craig Whittaker, the former co-chairman of the Conservative | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
Party says the Prevent strategy has become toxic within | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
I don't know if it's right is the honest answer | :50:01. | :50:07. | |
but like all these things, they evolve over time | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
and if what we're being told is that it does need a revamp, | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
whether that's going back to the drawing board or indeed | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
enhancing some of the aspects of it, I do know the Government have | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
But what that looks like I guess it will come out of some white | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
paper or consultation with the Muslim community. | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
Many of the programmes came as a result of the 2005 London | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
bombings, effectively put into place by Tony Blair's Government. | :50:37. | :50:38. | |
Do you think it is time we looked at these again? | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
Alan Johnson is right, we need something but it's got | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
to work and has to be reformed and improved. | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
Working with the community, but also making sure no community | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
feels that it is targeted, especially the Muslim community | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
because let's not forget, they are not the only community | :50:59. | :51:00. | |
from which terrorists have sometimes come. | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
The second-biggest terrorist atrocity in Europe over the last few | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
years was by a radical Christian, Anders Brevik in Norway | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
when he machine-gunned the teenagers at the holiday camp so we have to be | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
aware not to target and stigmatise any particular community. | :51:16. | :51:24. | |
It's interesting that radicalisation programmes are largely aimed | :51:25. | :51:26. | |
at young Muslim men, not exclusively but largely aimed | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
at young men, and yet the attacker at Westminster | :51:31. | :51:32. | |
was a 52-year-old man, so how do you counter | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
That is one of the conundrums that everybody has been | :51:35. | :51:46. | |
The normal profile of an extremist radicalist | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
This is completely different but it's not different in a real sense. | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
If you look at one of my friends who was brutally | :51:58. | :51:59. | |
Jo Cox, her murderer was 52 and he was a lone wolf. | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
People must have known that he had a tendency for extreme | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
But that is completely unknown to the services. | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
Before we finish on this, has there been evidence of a rise | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
in hate crimes since Wednesday's tragic events at Westminster? | :52:18. | :52:24. | |
My information is coming from an organisation the Government | :52:25. | :52:26. | |
set up and there has been some spike in the number of attacks. | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
I was talking to a taxi driver here yesterday who said | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
on the evening of the attack in London, a taxi driver | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
I can't confirm it but apparently that happened. | :52:37. | :52:44. | |
Other than that, I've not seen anything else but today at mosque, | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
my imam made it clear we should not accept these people as Muslims | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
and should not term them as Muslims in the Muslim community. | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
We should not be answering for the actions of these people. | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
The Government has confirmed that the formal process of leaving | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
Is the triggering of negotiations to leave the EU seen as a threat | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
to a prosperous future or the path to more opportunity? | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
Len Tingle has been to Harrogate, a town which voted to remain | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
This woman comes from the Czech Republic. | :53:15. | :53:25. | |
She's one of the 70-strong workforce in this hotel here in Harrogate. | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
Well over 40 of them are EU nationals. | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
We couldn't run a business without them, so it has caused some | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
I've had one person leave recently and go home because of the whole | :53:37. | :53:44. | |
Brexit situation and the nervousness that that has left and | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
a feeling of discomfort about their safety and future. | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
I've got one or two others who are considering that as well, | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
Surprisingly, general manager Simon Cotton voted to Leave | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
He is anxious about the future of his EU immigrant workforce, | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
but believes common sense will find a solution. | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
I think we should have more immigration, just | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
better controls on it, so who's coming in, what sort | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
of skills they can provide and if they can help drive | :54:17. | :54:18. | |
the economy, because we need more people in this country | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
Just across town, formal Royal Engineer Paul Rawlinson started | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
off his coffee and cake shop when he left the army | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
He voted to Remain and he's very worried about the EU | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
Some of my team were pretty upset, especially the EU nationals. | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
Some were saying, "OK, we're not welcome here any more, | :54:39. | :54:40. | |
we're going to leave," but I think that has levelled out a little bit. | :54:41. | :54:51. | |
Most of us were a bit sad and it's just not the way | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
It's not surprising that should be differences of opinion | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
here as to what economic deal there should be once | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
Harrogate was one of just three places across | :55:02. | :55:03. | |
the whole of Yorkshire - Leeds and Yorkshire bring the others | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
- that voted in favour of staying in the EU. | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
It was a close-run thing - 51% said stay, 49% said leave. | :55:10. | :55:11. | |
The falling value of the pound is highlighted by both | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
businesses, but they come to totally different conclusions. | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
We've got a number of airports on our doorstep and people can fly | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
in for short breaks or longer holidays and the dollar | :55:27. | :55:28. | |
Elements like coffee which are traded in the dollar, | :55:29. | :55:37. | |
the pound against that currency means that prices have risen | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
and we've already had to add that on to our guests. | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
If the different views here are anything to go by, | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
serving up a Brexit deal acceptable to all is going to | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
Various thoughts from businesses in Harrogate. | :55:52. | :56:01. | |
Let's go back to Lord Paul Scriven who's at Westminster today. | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
Article 50 triggered on Wednesday, three more sleeps! | :56:05. | :56:06. | |
Have you started breaking out in a cold sweat? | :56:07. | :56:08. | |
As you can see from my top lip, possibly! | :56:09. | :56:15. | |
What we will do in three days is basically slam our foot | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
on an accelerator in the car, not clear whether we've got | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
the steering wheel and not clear whether the brakes work. | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
It seems to be acceleration regardless of what the consequences | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
are and as we start to go forward, we have to see this is going to be | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
really complex with some really big issues and even if we are determined | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
to come out of the single market it will have an economic catastrophe | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
for areas like Yorkshire and the Humber so this | :56:45. | :56:46. | |
is not a day to celebrate, it's a day to be worried as far | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
Richard Corbett, Brexit is happening, isn't it about time | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
we all started working together to try to make it a success? | :56:57. | :57:04. | |
It's the mother of divorce cases with several thousand subjects that | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
at some point you need to find a solution to but there is a choice | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
to be made by Britain going into these negotiations, | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
are we going to try to stay inside the customs union or not? | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
Do we want a barrier for our manufacturers, | :57:18. | :57:18. | |
Do we want to keep how universities out of European research funding? | :57:19. | :57:33. | |
Do we want to affect passport services across Europe? | :57:34. | :57:35. | |
Do we want to stop police corroborating with Europe? | :57:36. | :57:37. | |
The Government seems to be embarking down those roads and in that case, | :57:38. | :57:46. | |
there will be many who voted Leave who will say, that's | :57:47. | :57:48. | |
not what I was told, that's not what I will too far. | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
A lot of questions there and we don't have time | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
to answer them all today, but the point that Richard Corbett | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
makes is that many people who voted Leave, are they going | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
It's interesting Richard took the negative view | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
There is a positive future that as well. | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
For Calder Valley businesses, 90% of businesses are manufacturers | :58:16. | :58:17. | |
We are still in but we also exporting not just to the EU | :58:18. | :58:25. | |
but other countries as well so there are pros and cons. | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
I don't get the negativity here and I voted Remain. | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
I accept we've got to move on and this is what the British | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
We have a great Prime Minister who will get on and get the best | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
We've been arguing, talking, discussing, debating about just | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
triggering the process which starts next Wednesday. | :58:50. | :58:51. | |
Richard Corbett, you predicted this economic meltdown would begin | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
after June 23 last year and it didn't. | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
Well, the Government didn't start the process, | :59:00. | :59:01. | |
Secondly, there are measures taken, the pound was devalued by 20% | :59:02. | :59:15. | |
which will feed through to higher prices for food and fuel. | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
The Government has borrowed a heck of a lot more money to pay for this | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
If it is a costly Brexit, a damaging Brexit, very few people | :59:25. | :59:32. | |
voted for Brexit at any cost, they voted for Brexit at no cost | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
because they were told it will not cost money, it will bring in money | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
These people are entitled to demand a rethink. | :59:40. | :59:46. | |
Lord Scriven, are you going to try to derail the Brexit process? | :59:47. | :59:58. | |
I'm going to make sure that British businesses and British people | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
have the opportunities that they have now to flourish | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
and succeed but I worry that with a hard Brexit, | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
those opportunities are going to go and I'm going to hold the Government | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
going to be sun-filled meadows when we leave to account and let | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
the British people know exactly what the implications | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
Are you going to eat your hat if at the end of the two-year | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
process, it's a better outcome for the UK? | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
I don't think it's about eating my hat, what I'd say to people | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
who are now negotiating, give us some security that | :00:35. | :00:44. | |
what you're doing will be better, because sound bites like "red, | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
white and blue Brexit" or "Brexit means Brexit" is not | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
solid basis for businesses and people to understand | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
The European Parliament will ultimately have a vote | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
on the Brexit deal, what happens if Europe says no, | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
The more important question is, what happens if the House of Commons | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
which has been promised a meaningful vote takes one look at the deal | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
and if it's a bad one, they say no to it? | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
That's why I and the Liberal Democrats support giving the final | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
If we trust the public to say, yes, we want to go out, | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
then once the final deal is known, we should trust them to say, | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
is this in the interest of our community and our country, | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
Briefly Craig Whittaker, this could be cleared | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
Theresa May could try to get herself a brand-new mandate. | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
Thank you very much to Craig Whittaker, | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
We had back to Andrew Neil and London. | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday | :01:54. | :02:10. | |
at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion - | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat, | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday, | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
will trigger Article 50, formally starting | :02:23. | :02:23. | |
The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
made an appeal for unity at the gathering. | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors. | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds, | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on | :02:56. | :03:15. | |
that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years, | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent. | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that | :04:10. | :04:27. | |
doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member | :04:32. | :04:33. | |
states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification | :04:47. | :04:48. | |
process, people looking at this would think it is Mission: | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well, | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me! | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements? | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
which could really result in a change of Government... That is the | :06:38. | :06:50. | |
big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see, | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form | :07:50. | :08:02. | |
a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU | :09:32. | :09:42. | |
march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people | :09:58. | :10:06. | |
like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be, | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean. | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free | :10:56. | :11:14. | |
movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
everywhere else where there are British citizens would have | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always. | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
night from Birmingham - with guests including | :13:21. | :13:21. | |
the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer, | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond - | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One. | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
MUSIC: The Elements by Tom Lehrer | :13:35. | :14:41. | |
# There's Attenborough, micro.bit, The Bottom Line and In Our Time | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
# And Terrific Scientific and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
# And BBC Food, Alphablocks, Forces of Nature With Brian Cox | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
# A Midsummer Night's Dream and Springwatch. # | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
Every element of wonder - available across the BBC. | :14:54. | :15:02. | |
indecent behaviour. Evelyn Waugh's classic novel. | :15:03. | :15:03. | |
I expect you'll want to become a schoolmaster? | :15:04. | :15:04. | |
That's what most of the gentlemen does that get sent down for | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
indecent behaviour. Evelyn Waugh's classic novel. | :15:08. | :15:09. | |
Have you ever been in love, Mr Pennyfeather? No, not yet. | :15:10. | :15:13. |