Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
done" - we'll speak to him and the party's | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
In London, a capital in recovery, but after this week's | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
attack in Westminster, have the police resources to the job | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:21. | :01:32. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:18. | :05:28. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:07. | :06:08. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:16. | :06:25. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:26. | :06:26. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:35. | :06:36. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:57. | :07:05. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:32. | :07:39. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:13. | :11:14. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :16:02. | :16:10. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:39. | :16:48. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:53. | :17:01. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:05. | :18:16. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:04. | :21:20. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:56. | :22:04. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:37. | :22:44. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:52. | :23:02. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:22. | :24:32. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:32. | :25:32. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:38. | :25:39. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:20. | :26:21. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:28. | :26:29. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:30. | :26:38. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:45. | :26:54. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:46. | :29:01. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:26. | :30:35. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:12. | :31:28. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:29. | :31:30. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:31. | :31:32. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:30. | :33:36. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:20. | :37:28. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:17. | :38:25. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very much. | :38:38. | :01:47. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very you both for coming in, Andrew, back | :01:48. | :01:48. | |
to you. So yesterday the European Union | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city | :01:56. | :02:12. | |
where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though, | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May, | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50, | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
formally starting The President of the European | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not | :02:40. | :02:48. | |
discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits, | :02:49. | :02:50. | |
but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that | :02:56. | :03:15. | |
has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if | :04:10. | :04:11. | |
Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to | :04:12. | :04:31. | |
negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is | :04:38. | :04:39. | |
better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position. | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
European values, and others not there... We were not there at the | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values, | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be | :06:42. | :06:53. | |
there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about | :06:57. | :06:58. | |
how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April, | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen. | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
President Hollande will be representing France, then the new | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority, | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election, | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition, | :07:54. | :08:05. | |
that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about, | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe. | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
counts. We have two years to blog about this! | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there! | :09:39. | :09:47. | |
Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to | :10:03. | :10:11. | |
soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way | :10:58. | :11:18. | |
of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning | :11:36. | :11:43. | |
movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat. | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well. | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
British citizens would have responded. The British Government | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered. | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
special live tomorrow night from Birmingham - | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis, | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember - | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
if it's Sunday, it's | :13:34. | :13:37. |