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Now on BBC News it's talking business. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
In a world teeming with products and messages, how do | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
In this week's Talking Business, how big names survive in this | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
Welcome to the programme, I'm Tanya Beckett. | :00:18. | :00:45. | |
The explosion of media from Snapchat to Breitbart has fragmented | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
The days when half a country's population would watch or listen | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
to a programme or an event live at the same time, are gone. | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
So, how do big brands reach disparate consumers on such | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
And how do they remain relevant and inspire | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
Here to discuss it are three industry experts. | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
Johannes Smith is co-founder of the agency Hugo Cat, | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
which specialises in digital strategies for big-name brands. | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
Rita Clifton, CBE, is chairman of the consultancy BrandCap. | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
And, Dominique Delport is global managing director of marketing | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
and communications giant Havas media group. | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
Dominique, what happened of course in the last few years, | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
very obviously in your world is the rise of social | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
How has that changed the way people perceive brands | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
I think for the first time in history you've got that scale. | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
1 billion people connected to the same platform, | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
I think for the first time it reversed the mechanism, | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
Everyone is able to push comments, positive or negative, | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
So brands are not managing the conversation any more. | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
They need to look at what people say, because when they say it loud | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
it can destroy a reputation in a few days. | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
So you've got that complete inversion of that | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
I think brands understand that if they don't go | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
intimately to this platform, Snapchat is very | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
If you apply the same strategy, you fail. | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
So you need really to go in-depth into every platform and I'm not | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
talking about the Chinese platform or the Korean or Japanese, | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
so every country have developed its own way to integrate | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
services, brands, commerce, it's a brand New World. | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
So, Rita, if one were to summarise what Dominique is saying there, | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
first of all your brand can be very easily destroyed in social media | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
because what we call the democratisation of media, | :03:01. | :03:02. | |
meaning everybody is contributing to the media content and each | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
type of social media, each platform has its own way | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
of operating and it needs to be understood? | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
In the digital age, if people talk about sexy YouTube videos, | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
social media stance and everything else, but actually the killer | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
insight about that is you've got to be a really great business | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
So absolutely, we need to get into conversations. | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
Brands need to get into conversations. | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
But of course, you need to do something to get into those | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
conversations properly and also to earn trust. | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
Because in the digital age everything is visible, | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
What that means is that there's no big brands spending lots of money | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
on marketing communication, however smart, however beautiful | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
If they are not as good on the inside as they are | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
on the outside, people are going to find out and they're | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
going to find out really, really quickly with a scale | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
and a speed that will take your breath away. | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
Johannes, it suggests a little bit the type of brand you build and how | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
you build it is very affected by social media? | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
Absolutely and I think you can't script it any more, | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
you've got to listen to the audience and understand what people actually | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
want and what the emotional triggers are, what people respond to and then | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
build the brand around those emotional triggers. | :04:17. | :04:17. | |
That's how you build a great brand these days, | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
by really understanding the audience and really listening and building | :04:21. | :04:22. | |
But it has to be true, as Rita says, it has to actually resonate | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
So it's not really a case of going into a boardroom or sitting | :04:28. | :04:39. | |
in an ivory tower and drawing out a plan and that's it. | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
And it has to be a very responsive process, | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
is that what we are saying, Dominique? | :04:46. | :04:46. | |
Yes, and there is a big lack of trust now. | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
If we look at some surveys, 74% of brands could disappear overnight. | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
What do you mean, they could disappear? | :04:54. | :04:55. | |
People don't care, they could skip, there is such an oversupply | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
of brands, that people have a choice and they are very mature consumers. | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
They can go online, they can disrupt traditional retail, | :05:03. | :05:04. | |
so that really is a new empowered consumer that really | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
wants to understand, what is a trade-off? | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
That is a pivotal moment in brand marketing. | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
Advertising is good, it boosts the economic machine, | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
it creates jobs, there is a lot of positivity around that, | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
but on the other hand, you need transparency. | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
With the other thing that's very noticeable | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
is that if you have bought, for example, a pair of shoes, | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
or whatever it is that you've bought you notice you are on your computer | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
Johannes, or maybe Rita, does anybody know how an algorithm works? | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
I think that's a good question for Dominique, absolutely. | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
It's like cooking, you've got ingredients but you need a recipe | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
That's a very nice way of describing them. | :05:49. | :06:00. | |
We have got a scientist, mathematician expert who writes | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
algorithm like they can write poetry in a way. | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
You have to understand these big platforms, Google, Facebook, | :06:07. | :06:08. | |
Google page ranks all the websites, Facebook is edge ranked | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
with everyone on the same platform, but every profile and news feed | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
is different due to your choice, behaviours and taste. | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
So these mathematical environments enabled them automation. | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
What we have seen with the financial markets a few years ago is coming | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
So, instead of calling the BBC, calling the Mail or the Times to buy | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
some advertising space, now everything is | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
But when it gets it right it's great, but when it gets it wrong? | :06:39. | :06:48. | |
A pair of shoes have been following me around | :06:49. | :06:57. | |
for a very long time, I can assure you. | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
But I think what's really interesting and maybe an irony | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
about the loss of trust is that in this explosion of channels, | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
conversations and every thing else, it's never been more important | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
to find brands to be able to navigate to people you can trust. | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
Because actually, human beings aren't going to be able to stay | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
awake for long enough to read all the rubbish people | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
put on mobile sites, websites and everything else. | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
You need to be able to go to brands you trust and if you trust those | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
brands, you want to spend time with them and you will buy more | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
Every now and again, particularly when we have such | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
an extraordinary change in the digital world | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
where there is a consumer downturn, maybe, you read articles about, | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
is this twilight of the brands, is this death of the brands | :07:37. | :07:47. | |
because products and prices are now laid bare in the digital age. | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
The thing is, you've got to be able to find places you trust | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
That's why brands are really, really important. | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
What's really interesting there is, as you said, Dominique, | :07:57. | :07:58. | |
It is optimised dynamically as you go, but I think increasingly | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
what we are seeing is the whole experience is becoming | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
All interaction you have with the brand, not just advertising | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
but all the little experiences we have with the brands | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
are being optimised on-the-fly by looking at the data, | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
looking at what kind of customer you are, | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
looking at what you've done before and trying to give you the best | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
What's interesting is that people don't tend to | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
They said that they don't trust adverts, but they do want a valuable | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
exchange with the brand, they want relevant promotions | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
So they are willing to give up a little bit of data in return | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
for something and I think brands increasingly have to think about | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
So if they are going to harvest data and be clever about it, | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
they have to give something back and people are open to that. | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
They can give relevant promotions, they can understand what you've been | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
buying before and say, if you buy certain things, | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
we might be able to give you a little bit of a discount, | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
we might be able to optimise the experience for you, | :08:51. | :08:52. | |
Imagine you have kids with a food allergy, | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
you will really seek advice and tips for brands that understand | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
these kinds of allergies and can indicate what are good products | :09:03. | :09:04. | |
for the allergy and the right product for you. | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
So you need absolutely to have that kind of knowledge | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
I think brands need to provide more services, not just a product. | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
It is what we are studying and TV still is a phenomenal medium. | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
Something with Heathrow Airport, they did a TV advert with the two | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
bears and it has been incredibly successful because people want | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
emotion and the big TV screen is also, despite the digital | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
success, a phenomenal way to convey emotion | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
I think that's a really important point here. | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
It is so exciting what one can do these days in terms of automation | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
and terms of chromatic marketing and so on, it's very truly exciting. | :09:48. | :09:59. | |
and terms of programme marketing and so on, | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
But in the end sometimes some core principles still apply, don't they, | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
to building a brand in whatever age, you have to be clear | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
You have to be coherent about how that shows up | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
through everything you do, the whole experience. | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
You've got to make sure you keep on innovating and keep | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
You just happen to have lots of channels to do that and frankly, | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
if you are not doing it properly, there are endless ways | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
And what it is as well, it is an opportunity for brands | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
to innovate all this data, they can try things so much faster | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
They can launch new products, launch new services and if it | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
So, later in the programme we'll examine how brands | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
are creating challenges, education campaigns and media | :10:45. | :10:45. | |
content in the hope of converting us from fickle customers | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
But first our comedy consultant and man brand Colm O'Regan takes | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
In today's era of globalised business, countries just | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
like products and services, our brands themselves. | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
There was a time when images of Ireland were lazy, | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
stereotypes consisting mainly of drinking, fighting | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
Today Ireland is a far more contemporary image | :11:16. | :11:26. | |
What are the elements that go to make up our brand | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
as a country and I wonder, can I think of a snappy | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
The Irish and Brand Ireland is a huge entity and there's | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
Our focus is making sure the corporate world understands why | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
Ireland is a great place to do business. | :11:46. | :11:47. | |
It is a competition to win investment worldwide. | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
Often times, when our executives are walking into boardrooms to pitch | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
for certain bits of business, they are meeting their competitors | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
from other countries that they will make next week | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
in Paris, that they will meet next week in Singapore, | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
so Ireland as a brand, is being represented through the IDA | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
in all of those boardrooms and we are pitching hard | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
About 70% of the foreign investment that comes | :12:08. | :12:17. | |
Ireland now is some ominous with countries like Google, | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, having their European | :12:22. | :12:23. | |
They are very powerful reference sells for us across the world. | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
When one company sees their competitor going | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
to the jurisdiction, they begin to ask questions, | :12:33. | :12:33. | |
But how do you create a strong national brand in a global context? | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
One industry that does that is the airline industry. | :12:41. | :12:42. | |
Aer Lingus is Ireland's national airline, having | :12:43. | :12:44. | |
Its mission then, to connect Ireland to the world. | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
Everybody knows us for warmth and friendliness. | :12:51. | :13:00. | |
However, when we go globally, that's extremely important and it's | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
But we need to do other things as well. | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
Ireland is marketed as a global business destination, | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
obviously a lot of big businesses are based here so we have to make | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
sure that for the business traveller we have a very good | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
We need to be very professional, most passengers like for us to be | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
on time, they like a punctual airline with the Aer Lingus unique | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
So that's it, Ireland, the small country but the global brand. | :13:23. | :13:30. | |
Now, to try and sum it up with a snappy description. | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
Maybe I could adapt an existing advertising slogan? | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
Clowns to the left of us, jokers to the right. | :13:38. | :13:47. | |
I still haven't found what I'm looking for. | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
Colm O'Regan, with his take on brand Ireland. | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
Colm O'Regan, with his take on Brand Ireland. | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
Remember, you can see more of his short films on our website. | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
Our guests are Dominique, Rita and Johannes and they are still | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
Rita, perhaps you could start us off with that, what does it mean | :14:11. | :14:25. | |
to be what we describe as a meaningful brand? | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
I think there are a number of different ways of describing it. | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
They are brands that are particularly relevant | :14:32. | :14:33. | |
I know that sounds completely obvious, but to be truly successful | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
you need to elevate it beyond relevance to people | :14:38. | :14:39. | |
rationally loving and promoting your brand too. | :14:40. | :14:41. | |
Apple is a classic example, it must be be overused | :14:42. | :14:43. | |
case study in the world, but people queue around the corner | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
If you think of those brands that have become almost | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
These are brands like Amazon, brands like John Lewis Partnership | :14:53. | :15:01. | |
in the UK, more broadly maybe brands like Facebook and Google. | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
These are brands that wrap themselves around | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
you and your lives, they can understand a lot about you. | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
You trust them to sort out some of your problems. | :15:14. | :15:15. | |
Yes, to go and find products for you, actually to be a gateway | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
into conversations with friends and family and so on. | :15:20. | :15:21. | |
And they simplify your life and navigate a lot of the stuff that | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
Dominique, your company has done a study of what I meaningful brand | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
Dominique, your company has done a study of what a meaningful brand | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
is and what is noticeable, is the words that come | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
at the top have a lot to do with organising your life, | :15:35. | :15:36. | |
As Rita said, we studied 350,000 consumers in 33 countries, | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
asking them what is a meaningful brand for you? | :15:41. | :15:42. | |
As I said, it is a personal feeling, perception, I want that brand | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
to make my life easier, I want great value for money, | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
I want innovation, but also I want an impact for my community. | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
My family, my neighbourhood, great employer, sustainability | :15:52. | :15:52. | |
practices, transparency, ethics, all of these components | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
And when we look at that, yes, Amazon, WhatsApp or PayPal, | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
when you look at Apple, Apple is not perceived | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
as a meaningful because it's too expensive. | :16:07. | :16:08. | |
So if you look in 33 countries, it still foreign elite, | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
For those people, it's a passion brand. | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
If you have the money for buying these products, of course, | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
And when we look at how these brands have performed | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
in the stock market, plus 206%, it is massive. | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
If you are relevant for your audience, then | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
Close to the heart, close to the wallets. | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
They are going to overspend with your brands... | :16:40. | :16:41. | |
Close to the heart, close to the wallet, | :16:42. | :16:43. | |
It is interesting, as I said, that these are lifestyle brands, | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
things that organise your life for you, but that might be just | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
a function of the fact that information technology has developed | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
I think it is to a larger extent and I think now that people interact | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
with brands in so many different ways, brands have to be much more | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
mindful about the entire experience they create with brands, | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
from the initial awareness where people interact and they search, | :17:08. | :17:09. | |
how people find brands, whether it is through | :17:10. | :17:11. | |
Right the way through to the interactions on the mobile app, | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
on the website, in the stores, the user interface, all of it | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
One little weakness in that chain ruins brand perception | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
because people expect these brands to just be extremely good | :17:25. | :17:26. | |
There is so much competition, it's so easy to change from one | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
brand to another now, you can just download | :17:33. | :17:34. | |
another app and move from one brand to another, | :17:35. | :17:36. | |
If you were to go onto site for socks, for socks, for example, | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
We are talking about something like 84, 85% of customers | :17:42. | :17:53. | |
are influenced in their purchases by the recommendations of friends. | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
People would tend to believe any of the consumers rather | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
than the corporation who's trying to sell. | :18:03. | :18:03. | |
So, at every stage of the research, the recommendation, the buying, | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
the review process, you can be hijacked. | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
You might be in pole position in people's minds, | :18:09. | :18:10. | |
but if they go online and they find out someone hates you | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
This is why the only remedy in this brand New World, | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
is you've got to be really, really good at what you do and your | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
staff and your people have got to believe in what you are doing, | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
they've got to build a consistent idea together they're prepared | :18:28. | :18:29. | |
to tell other people about and they need to make | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
people love you so much, they will go and tell other | :18:33. | :18:34. | |
That is the cheapest way to do marketing. | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
Dominique, I want to come back to what you said at the beginning. | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
There needs to be this lifestyle aspect to it. | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
In a way in needs to represent something more | :18:44. | :18:45. | |
to you than just the products itself, something about... | :18:46. | :18:47. | |
How do you transcend just being a brand? | :18:48. | :18:49. | |
More and more people expect from brands, they will produce more | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
content about the process, the components of the brand, | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
For instance, 71% of consumers expect brands to produce content | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
They want to know better, what's behind the stage. | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
This is one of the big areas for brands now, | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
Look at a platform like net flicks, there isn't one single advert. If | :19:15. | :19:37. | |
they blocked, brands have to think of another way. Companies often | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
advertise describing inexperience rather than the product itself? | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
Brands have to describe experience. It is very transparent and they | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
cannot create this image that is untrue. If we look at trust. It is | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
tapping into emotions and understanding customers and how to | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
respond to those emotions, whether it is creating entertainment. For an | :20:03. | :20:13. | |
example? Inside Out all these different emotions, it is joy, it | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
could be fear. Understanding where people might have moments of fear, | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
worried about identity theft and brands can respond to that and | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
reassure and build trust. One of the reasons I think Amazon was so | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
successful, it is an incredibly successful retailer that doesn't | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
have any shops, you don't talk to anybody. But it has content? It | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
absolutely has content. It understood people would be anxious | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
about logistics, getting their deliveries on time and securing | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
payment. They totally understood that and they were reliable for | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
delivering it. And that is how they started building of trust, because | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
they delivered. You have noticed that where you do have high street | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
shops, they have become a lifestyle experience. You go in and it is all | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
going on, plenty of show and tell, it is not just rails and shelves? A | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
lot of stores are not there to make money within the shop, they are | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
there to build brand perception and build experience and showcase what | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
the brand is about and showcased the connection with the story. You have | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
brands who have done very well through the recession from 2008 | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
because they had a truthful story. The founder is passionate about the | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
product. Passionate about sport. That authenticity shines through. | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
But also the flow from online, it has to be able to sustain those. | :21:51. | :22:00. | |
Extraordinary brands manage the combination of stores, online. Using | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
catwalk shows to tweets to the world. Label was dying brand, now it | :22:05. | :22:16. | |
is a movie boosts sales. It is a store where experience is | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
everything. The seamless is important. Thank you very much to | :22:21. | :22:28. | |
all of you, Rita, Johannes and Dominique. Join us again next week | :22:29. | :22:38. | |
when we will be in Singapore discussing China's rising | :22:39. | :22:38. | |
imperialism. Goodbye. Good evening. The mild theme to the | :22:39. | :22:56. | |
weather continues. We saw temperatures as high as 15 degrees | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
across parts of Wales earlier. Not everywhere saw the sunshine. This | :23:02. | :23:03. | |
was | :23:04. | :23:04. |