Browse content similar to 18/09/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning. The party conference Good morning. The party conference | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
season, as reliable as the falling leaves, over the | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
will be talking to the Labour and to the Prime Minister but | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
we are here in Birmingham for the Liberal Democrats. A city, of | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
course, with a great political tradition. Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
leader, told his party that it was here that Lloyd George, the great | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
Liberal leader of the past, was nearly killed by a rioting, | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
murderous mob. He only escaped by being dressed up by a policeman. | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :01:13. | ||
Nothing like that will happen to Clegg this week, we think. | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
But these are tough times, with hard But these are tough times, with hard | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
decisions for anyone in government. The economy is in trouble, | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
unemployment's very high and Europe is fighting hard to keep its | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
currency. Plans to kick-start the economy are to be announced | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
Liberal Democrat ministers today I am going to be talking | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
about all of that, about in politics and about his relations | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
with the Conservatives. He has already told the Lib Dems here that | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
his job is to be awkward, not make life easy for David Cameron. | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
But this morning we also have a remarkable interview with one of the | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
men who created and shaped Labour. The political strategist, | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
Philip Gould, who says himself he is in the final phase of his long | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
battle with cancer. He talks with extraordinary candour about the | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
illness and about how it has caused him to re-examine every aspect | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
his professional and his personal life. | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
We hear also from the great We hear also from the great | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
cricketing hero, Imran Khan, who is hoping that his Movement for Justice | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
party will break through in Pakistan's next election, | :02:15. | :02:23. | |
will have music from the soul singer Beverley Knight. | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
Beverley is a local woman and she is Beverley is a local woman and she is | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
a flag carrier for British of that, plus our usual paper | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
this morning with the Lib Dem President, Tim Farron, and The Times | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
sketch writer, Anne Treneman. But first the news from Riz Lateef in | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
London. the Treasury Danny Alexander will | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
today announce measure to say kick-start the economy. They will | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
include a �500 million fund to deliver key infrastructure projects | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
and create jobs. In a speech to Liberal Democrat conference in | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
Birmingham, Danny Alexander will also announce the creation of more | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
than 2,000 jobs at the Inland Revenue. The roles are designed to | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
help staff clamp down on tax avoidance and evasion by the rich. | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
Barack Obama is to propose a new minimum tax rate for anyone | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
in the US who earns more than million dollars in a year. The White | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
House says it will be part of a series of measures to be announced | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
tomorrow, aimed at reducing America's budget deficit. Rugby | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
America's budget deficit. America's budget deficit. | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
Republicans have said they will Republicans have said they will | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
oppose any plans to raise taxes. Pakistan's Prime Minister | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
promised more help for flood victims in Sindh. Monsoon rains have | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
submerged buildings, make of thousands of people homeless. | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
Hundreds have been killed. Here, prayers will be said | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
South Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
Gleision Colliery. An appeal fund set up yesterday to help | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
bereaved families has already �20,000. | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
The number of people kill indeed yesterday's crash at an air race in | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
the United States has risen to nine. Eight of the dead were spectators | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
who were struck when fighter plane crashed into their | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
grandstand at the event in Reno, Nevada. A number of | :04:08. | :04:18. | |
That's it, now back to Andrew in Now, front pages as usual. Here is | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
Now, front pages as usual. Here is Now, front pages as usual. Here is | :04:19. | :04:19. | |
That's it, now the Sunday Times, like a lot | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
papers leading with the Liberal Democrats: Cable clamps down on top | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
pay. That's lots of new inspectors, and so on, for people trying | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
avoid the top rate of tax. The Sunday Telegraph, however, has | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
story about Blair and Gaddafi's secret meetings, suggesting | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
there was a lot more to the release of the Lockerbie bomber than we | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
thought. It also says that Cameron aims to put the "great" | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
Britain. The Independent on Sunday also has | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
that that crackdown. 2,200 new tax | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
inspectors to target the says. Here is the Observer: we will | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
fight ruthless Tory extremists, the Lib Dems. Getting very excited | :04:58. | :05:07. | |
Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
bare. That's just power lines, a of theft of going on around the | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
country. And finally let's have the Mail on Sunday: two days' pay to | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
party on your tax. That's not a newspaper offer, that's a story | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
about civil servants taking extra paid holidays to attend an | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
alcohol-fuelled sports event. Farron and Anne Treneman but | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
for coming in to review the papers. Where will you start? Utterly | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
staggered, Andrew, that picked out the Lib Dem conference. | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
This is an interesting story I think it kind of puts a slight | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
opinion about our problems, like. The Liberal Democrats have cut | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
tax for the lowest paid and anybody on a lower and middle-income will | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
get - already getting a tax cut. That tax will get bigger as the | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
Parliament goes on and yet the headline here in the Observer | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
that our tax plan will benefit the rich and not help the poor. This is | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
a think-tank, isn't it? Yes, PPR. And that's what they think? | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
Allegedly it is what they think I am sure they do think it. | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
kind of true in a way. Well, it does, obviously if you are | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
earning money then you pay tax. you are earning above a certain | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
amount. If there is a tax cut at the bottom of course it works its way | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
up. What the Lib Dems made sure of all the same is that you don't get | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
that tax cut if you are on the 40 50% rate. So yes, it does help | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
people on middle-incomes and we are not ashamed of that but obviously it | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
helps people on low incomes as well. The point that is fair and it | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
need to be tackled, that is made here, is that if you are not earning | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
the minimum wage and if you are not working at all, or if indeed you are | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
on part-time work and therefore earning perhaps less than 10,000 a | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
year then this doesn't help you. OK. Having said all that, | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
majority of people in that position are pensioners, they've got the | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
biggest rise in 30 years, not that it feels like it at the moment. | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
have chosen a related story here? Yes, I love this story because | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
Lib Dems, you do love to hate the rich, don't you, and so now there's | :07:16. | :07:26. | |
:07:26. | :07:26. | ||
a new team being announced here called a Affluence Team. I love this | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
idea that they will drive round in Bentleys looking for other people in | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
Bentleys to - I just love the idea of this team. I never know if this | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
stuff ever, ever happens. You read about it and think - It needs to. | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
The point is, very quickly, title is laughable, I agree. | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
do you mean "very quickly"? Well, yes, but the point is this. A lot of | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
newspapers get wound up about people claiming benefits that they | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
shouldn't be doing but there is much more money lost every year from | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
wealthy people who find clever and not necessarily legal ways of | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
avoiding tax. We were told this at the last Liberal | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
conference, it was announced then and reannounced now. It's a funny | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
atmosphere because talking to people last night, this is a | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
for years and years has loved hate the Tories and now suddenly | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
wake up in bed with them and you are not quite sure whether to have a go | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
at them, mock them publicly. Clegg had a good joke about you | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
having five Cabinet ministers or if you include Ken Clarke. Indeed. | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
You are not quite sure how to deal with these people | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
you? All of us have a difficulty getting used to coalition. It's not | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
normal, not in England anyway. The Lib Dems probably have least trouble | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
with it of all the parties but it's still difficult because here we are, | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
most normal grown-up compromise and get on with people | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
they don't agree with. Yes. And politicians don't. It's a new thing. | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
So yes, there are psychological difficulties, shall we say. Are you | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
saying politicians aren't grown up? Mostly not, no. Most don't behave | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
like it. Your colleague Matthew Paris, Anne, had a good | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
week where he said this conference season the public aren't | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
going to want to see political points scoring in the old way. | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
Things are too serious actually for that. Yes, well, dream on is all I | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
can say. We have to tax the rich. Whatever. Yes. You know, attack | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
makes news, obviously. Yes, consensus isn't interesting and it's | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
a shame because it is actually we need. Above all, if you got one | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
thing out of Nick Clegg this week, what would you want to hear, Tim? | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
Again I think distinctiveness the Liberal Democrats but we can't | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
be so distinctive that we undermine the coalition because | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
line is, even if we don't get credit for it, it's important the country | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
is stably governed. So distinction about tax and also human rights? | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
Distinctive but not too distinctive. Distinctive and not destructive, if | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
that's the right way of putting it. We want to be spiky and ourselves, | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
we don't want people to think we've become something we are not. | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
Human Rights Act? It's totemic. It's not about rescuing us from the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
mess we are in financially but it about defending the kind of | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
we are. The background to this is that a lot of people, including a | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
lot of Conservative ministers, think that the Human Rights Act is getting | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
in the way of dealing with the aftermath of the riots, dealing with | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
criminal people, dealing with problem families, and so on, and | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
there's a review of it to see bits testify could be stripped out - | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
bits of it could be stripped out? There is. There is a lot of rot for | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
one thing. If we have to join anything for those problems it is an | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
US litigation-style culture which would happen with or | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
Human Rights Act but the Act is not there to protect nefarious | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
characters, it's there to put black and white traditional British | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
liberties. If we are to go around rightly I think supporting those, | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
for example, involved in the Arab spring and trying to uphold | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
desire for justice and human rights, how ludicrous for us to be | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
undermining our own at home. So that's a red line? I would say so, | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
yes. Absolutely. Yes. I have a line of my own. This is a survey | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
reported in the Sunday Times. I think that Lord Ashcroft actually | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
has something to do with it so the results aren't perhaps that | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
surprising but hilarious surprising but hilarious asking what | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
people thought of various party leaders. David Cameron has a picture | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
of lion here, the only person who has come out with anything | :11:38. | :11:46. | |
resembling leadership. The picture of him is a bull in a china shop. | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
Poor Nick Clegg, he has a puppet here and then a little kitten. | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
is the picture that they think Nick Clegg. Yes. They asked people | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
phrases that they associated Nick Clegg and one of them was | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
"drowning man". That's not very nice. It's very bad. Speaking | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
not very nice, there's a piece about you, Tim: Lib Dem leadership | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
plotter. Yes. It's a gay smear story. I'm trying to find the | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
accuracy in there because I am not leadership plotter and the gay smear | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
thing is very - this is an old story about a story that wasn't a story. | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
It's the kind of thing that you guys have to put up with the whole time? | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
It is. In January of this year paperback home printed a | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
a person put away for two years for blackmailing an anonymous person | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
over their secret gay life. Some very pleasant person put it | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
the lobby that that person was That is not the case. This two-day | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
flurry in January/February and then they found out unpleasantly who | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
person was so they went quiet and for some reason the Mail decided to | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
unearth it now. It's distressing it's life. Over to something | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
more scary, however, Anne. been worried all morning about | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
particular story which is in Observer? Well, this is about | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
spiders. I don't know, I just there are spiders everywhere, | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
literally. There are. Coming of the woodwork. It is. There are | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
spiders under the woodwork. There was a damp spring, some more pollen, | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
so more insects, so more baby spiders lived and now we have all | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
these incredibly fat female pregnant spiders in the woodwork apparently. | :13:29. | :13:39. | |
People are ringing up the British Tarantula Society, about these | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
pregnant British spiders, there are just so many of them. I found that | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
fascinating. That will produce more birds which will eat more spiders, | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
and by evolution, that will produce more ornithologists. Darwin | :13:53. | :14:01. | |
have approved of that. It's all good. The next story? The headline | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
is in the Sunday Times: the stuff. It's basically a literary | :14:06. | :14:15. | |
:14:16. | :14:20. | ||
story predicated on an interview with Robert Llewellyn, about the | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
Arctic Monkeys who went over the head of the record companies and | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
appealed straight to the this is the same thing where you | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
have a set-up in Notting Hill you can pitch your work, your book, | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
to the public directly. I think it seemed superbly democratic without | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
going through the kind of prejudices of editorial process. And the | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
boring stuff of people writing cheques to you either. | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
possibly what you will miss out as well. OK, speaking of cheques | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
and bouncing cheques, bouncing Greeks, the other huge story, of | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
course, is the European economic crisis, fiscal crisis. Yes, I | :14:56. | :15:06. | |
absolutely love this picture, which is spartans. We think so. There's | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
a great quote, and this basically is quite depressing reading so | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
don't want to be - it's just everything is sort of going down the | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
pan basically. But there's a man here who is appropriately called Dr | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
Doom, an economist - Is he really called Dr Doom? That's his | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
nickname. He has another name. That's a shame. I wish he was | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
Dr Doom. He is basically saying they have to do something. They | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
finally have to do something. So Arsenal fans will also be | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
this morning when they read some obscure team - I can't remember | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
their name. I am a Blackburn Rovers name and we have quadrupled the | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
number of our points this season by winning a game yesterday. Allegedly | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
we had three shots and scored four goals. My point is this, about the | :15:52. | :15:59. | |
media, even when we win, we are not interesting. It's "Arsenal lose | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
again", nothing about our team who beat them. Thank you very | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
indeed. Pretty fresh and parky morning as I came on that | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
studio. Not heavy rain here in Birmingham, let's find out what's | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
Thank you very much. For some of us Thank you very much. For some of us | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
it was chilly but sunny morning. Others have already seen | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
showers. Like yesterday it will be story of sunshine and | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
through the day. Although Andrew said the rain not heavy at times, | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
those showers are going to be pretty torrential. We could even see the | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
odd rumble of thunder. A few changes this afternoon with showers slowly | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
fading towards the west. Temperatures all in all a bit | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
disappointing, even with a bit of sunshine many highs of around | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
18C. Clearer skies overnight. Another chilly night tonight but we | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
will see thicker cloud and rain arriving in Northern Ireland by | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
dawn. Tomorrow in the west, and rain then moving | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
Western Scotland, northwest and Wales and the southwestern | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
corner. The best of the sunshine by the afternoon holding on to East | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
Anglia and the southeast, so as a result here 20C but where we | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
more cloud and the rain, temperatures more like 16 to 17C. | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
More details on the weather for the week ahead by going online. | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply | :17:16. | :17:17. | |
troubled country, currently troubled country, currently | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
Many thanks. Pakistan is a suffering again from terrible | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
flooding. It's also known for a great deal of political | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
and violence. It was once a partner of the West on | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
so-called war on terror but now distrusted by the Americans | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
Osama Bin Laden was discovered there. Imran Khan has just published | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
A Personal History of his country in which he is scathing about policy in | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
Welcome. This is a book which says Welcome. This is a book which says | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
in essence that Pakistan has pretty much the most corrupt | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
political system in the world. That's a pretty high claim? | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
this was going to happen, Andrew, because in the 2008 elections an | :18:02. | :18:11. | |
amnesty was given to 8,000 of the biggest criminals in the country and | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
not only were they given amnesty, they were allowed to contest | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
elections and most are in right now. So when you | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
criminals running a corruption goes through the roof, | :18:19. | :18:29. | |
:18:29. | :18:30. | ||
and it's not even corruption, it's plunder right now. You famously | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
created a free cancer hospital, have done a lot of that kind of | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
philanthropic work and you hope that your political party's time | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
have come but you are starting from a very small base, if I can put it | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
politely, and you are up against people with huge amounts of money | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
and an old system of barons passing out seats? The last election we | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
contested was nine years back. Since nine years the other parties have | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
gone down in Pakistan, because of corruption. All the parties are in | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
power in different provinces. As corruption rises, as discontent | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
rises, there's insurgency throughout our western borders, there's target | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
killing in Karachi, there are floods, so there's a total | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
disillusion. Of the people from these old political parties, and so | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
according to all the polls my is now the number one party in | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
Pakistan and I'm confident that this will be the biggest upset | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
Pakistan because the young people all want a change. We are sitting | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
in Birmingham, a lot of people in Britain, particularly in | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
the Midlands and so on, is it important for a politician like you | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
to come over to Britain and talk to Pakistanis here as well, as part of | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
the campaign? Yes, it is, there are 6 million overseas | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
Pakistanis. Their GDP is equal to 180 million Pakistanis, and they | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
find not only us political parties but, whenever you want, when you | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
the system there, the governance system, the biggest investment will | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
come from overseas Pakistanis just like in China and in India. It | :20:04. | :20:11. | |
the expatriate community, the overseas Chinese and Indians who | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
helped in their development. So hope lies in the overseas Pakistanis | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
who when you fight corruption, fix the system, that's where the real | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
money is going to come. Let's about the aftermath of the death | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. When we talked in the programme to President | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
Obama he was pretty withering and angry about the | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
government's involvement in all of this or his suspicions about that. | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
What's the feeling now in Pakistan, because it was a very bruising | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
moment for both countries. Humiliating for Pakistanis. | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
Humiliating that a country has lost 35,000 people dead, a country | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
had nothing to do with 9/11, there were no Pakistanis | :20:52. | :20:59. | |
Al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan. Then the economy has lost $70 billion. | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
Total US aid is about $20 billion Total US aid is about $20 billion | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
and 3.5 million refugees, internally displaced people. So a country that | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
has given such sacrifices. In the end, for us Pakistanis, whatever the | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
government role we don't know, to be called by the CIA chief either | :21:17. | :21:27. | |
:21:27. | :21:28. | ||
Pakistan was incompetent, or they were complicit, I think that was the | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
most humiliating thing for Pakistanis. And David Cameron here | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
said Pakistan was facing both ways. Exactly. That's why people | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
it is a wrong war, we should not have gone into it. As western | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
forces pull back in Afghanistan, doesn't that simply push the fight | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
against the remaining part of Al-Qaeda into | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
You have these drone attacks, and so on, at the moment? We have drone | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
attacks but they are totally counterproductive. All they do | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
they kill suspected militants, their family, but these are quickly | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
replaced by more people. Every year the violence has grown. These have | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
failed to - these are failed policies. They failed in | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
Afghanistan, they are failing in Pakistan. The answer lies in a | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
political settlement. There is no military settlement. Yes. Your | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
critics say that you come across very well and all the rest of it but | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
you have become quite a tough Islamist yourself. Anyone who just | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
does not go along with the US is either with us or against us. | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
You've got to become either a right wing or a hardliner. I objected to | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
this insane war on terror. You don't fight a war on terror with bombs and | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
F16s and helicopter gunships in villages where innocent people are | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
getting killed many it's just exacerbating the situation. So | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
anyone who pulls this policy becomes an Islamist. This is a ridiculous | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
thing. The issue will never settled militarily. Any expert now | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
knows, anyone, your exambassador says exactly the same thing. All | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
right, Imran Khan, thank you very much indeed for joining us today. | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
Now, from the general election Now, from the general election | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
adulation of "I agree with Nick", to having dog dirt shoved through his | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
letterbox, it has been to say the least a rollercoaster | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
Deputy Prime Minister. This week one newspaper claimed he had promised | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
his wife he would only serve one term. Whether that's true or not, | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
has got some huge decisions ahead of him as the coalition struggles with | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
hard times. Nick Clegg joins Good morning. Morning. Let's talk | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
to start with about hard times. We have the euro crisis. Yes. All | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
around us. The latest figures suggest that we may either have a | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
completely flat period in the economy, or things might actually | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
return to recession. So talk us through just how bad you think, how | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
worried you are about the economy first of all. I think the | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
is very serious. We are a very open economy, we are hugely dependent | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
what happens around us, on the eurozone. 40% of | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
and more go into the eurozone, so if things are spluttering there, | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
they are very seriously, then of course that affects us massively, | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
which is why it's hugely in our national interest to make sure that | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
the eurozone is strong. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
can do at home. Of course we balancing the books, everyone knows | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
that, we are reducing the burden on businesses, less red tape, less tax, | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
but I think there are more things we can do to create jobs today | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
build for tomorrow. That's why last week I made a speech about how we | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
are giving priority to infrastructure projects. San sand | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
today has talk - Danny Alexander today has talked about | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
being set aside for local infrastructure projects. What does | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
infrastructure mean? Broadband, housing, road, rails. And | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
Cable has been also talking about the need to do that, to really make | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
sure that we foster confidence we can, even though, you are right, | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
the wider context is really tough. I want to come back to the wider | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
context in a minute but there's simple question which is: you are | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
cutting expenditure, taxes high in order to balance the books, | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
so where possibly is the money going to come from for the kind of | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
substantial infrastructure projects that would actually get unemployment | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
down? Let me first - a little of perspective. We as a government | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
are still spending �700 billion a year, that is - hang on - Nobody | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
understands what that means, the trouble. No, the thing is | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
is this ludicrous caricature that because we are balancing the books | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
government can't do anything, that somehow we are turning the clock | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
back to the 1980s or 30s. As proportion of wealth this | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
will be spending more in public spending after all these | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
end of this Parliament than Blair and Gordon Brown were when | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
they came into power so there's a lot that government can still do, | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
not only through direct spending on broadband, on housing, on road, on | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
rail, but some of the We are setting up the first | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
Investment Bank, which is investment bank which takes public | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
money, taxpayers' money, and then gets private investors' money | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
for instance, renewable energy. That makes a big difference in actually | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
creating jobs today but, as I say, building for the future as well. | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
where does the money come from, for these big projects, and how much | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
money will there be? There will be literally billions of pounds of | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
investment, which we had already planned, but what we are | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
is that the ones which stimulate growth most effectively now and | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
help, for instance, employ young people who at the moment can't | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
a job, that they are given priority. Give me some examples. | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
We've already said that we are going to invest hundreds of millions of | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
pounds into superfast broadband. That's a good thing for | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
in the future, but you need to employ people to dig up the roads | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
and actually put in the new cabling and the fibre-optic cables. This is | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
not new money, this is have announced already? Let's be | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
clear. Quite a lot of it is that was already in the system but | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
crucially we will crucially we will actually by | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
2014/15 be spending a little more on what they call capital spending, | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
these big projects, than any previous government. So no | :27:17. | :27:25. | |
money yet? If I can finish, through these new investments, we calculate | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
about �18 billion of new money will go into building, for instance, | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
renewable energy infrastructure during this Parliament. That is not | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
to be sniffed at. Only �3 billion of that is taxpayers' money and what we | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
use, we use that money to then make sure that the private sector brings | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
in other money. Let me give you one other example. There's a regional | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
growth fund, something I sort of preside over in government, which is | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
there to allocate money to businesses who kind of might be | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
thinking of investing in a new bit of kit in the factory floor or | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
opening a new factory unit but a bit of a top-up to do that. We are | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
using this �1.5 billion to do that; that's matching public taxpayers' | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
money with private money common good. Yet you know that out | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
there there are no signs of growth. The private sector is not racing to | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
the rescue as you might hope indeed everyone is looking at | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
global picture and shivering and retrenching, rather than | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
more. Sure. So what else can you do? What about looking again at the | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
tax system for small businesses? What about tearing up some of the | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
old planning rules to make it easier for house builders and other | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
to invest money? As you know, it's very controversial, but we | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
actually saying that we do need to look at these very antiquated | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
planning rules - And you are 100% against the sort of green England - | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
Look, I think some frankly rather misleading claims are being made | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
that we are going to destroy the greenbelt and so on, that | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
people won't have their say. In respects local people will have more | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
of a say. What we is that you can't have a situation, | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
and we are pretty unique in this the developed world, where, if | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
people want to get on with the development, it takes them years | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
years and years and years to get permission. We haven't got years. | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
We've got to get moving as a country because - Sure. Economists | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
about numbers and percentages billions here and there. At the | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
of the day this is about something much more elusive and delicate | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
is just confidence. It's to get people to start building that | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
first house, confidence that the business uses money they've got to | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
create a new job, confidence to households to go out and spend a | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
of money in the high street. OK. That's a delicate thing, it's | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
affected by international circumstances over which we only | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
have limited control, influence but not control, but we | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
can also do things in the way that I've described to boost confidence | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
at home. Let's talk about all to do with confidence | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
rest of it, which is income tax. The Chancellor is looking at whether or | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
not the 50p band of tax not the 50p band of tax actually | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
raises any money at all. If he concludes that this is actually not | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
bringing money into the Exchequer, and presumably putting some | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
off at the top end, is it acceptable for that to go? If we discover that | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
the 50p rate just hasn't raised money from the very wealthiest | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
it was supposed to, clearly to look at other ways - And you | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
not going to stop it going? Let me finish, then I of course think we | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
should look at other ways the wealthiest would pay the amount | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
expected through the 50p rate. This is a debate which isn't just | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
happening in Westminster and political parties in Britain. Look | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
at what President Obama has said. Sure. Overnight. Look at the | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
in Germany, in Italy, in France, across the developed world, everyone | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
accepts as I passionately believe, that when a lot of people on | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
ordinary incomes are really finding it difficult to do the weekly shop, | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
to pay these hugely inflated heating bills this winter, it simply would | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
be incomprehensible to them, whatever the rate rises, to suddenly | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
lower the tax burden on the very wealthiest. I understand that | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
absolutely. What I'm trying to find out is what might then happen. You | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
mentioned last night again the mansion tax. So, if the 50p rate | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
to be dropped, are you would have to be a quid pro quo, | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
something like the mansion tax to replace it? It's unfair on George | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
Osborne for me to try and seek to write budgets now in a television | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
studio. Sure, but the principles of different taxes? The principles are | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
agreed across government and if you look at the budget statement George | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
Osborne himself said going to look at the amount that the | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
50p raises, but at the same are going to look at the way in | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
which the very wealthiest and those in very high value properties pay | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
their fair share so that was agreed across government and clearly these | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
things are linked. Sorry, I just want to be absolutely | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
this before we move on, that you will block, you would stop, any | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
abolition of the 50p rate there was something else which | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
raised money from the top earners? raised money from the top | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
I have two pre-occupations. Firstly, I don't think it is morally or even | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
economically right to unilaterally lower the tax burden on the very | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
wealthiest when we haven't made more progress as I want us | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
lowering taxes for the millions on ordinary incomes. That remains my | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
principal concern. That's the I got written into the coalition | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
agreement that our overriding tax priority was lowering | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
on millions of people on low ordinary incomes. Secondly, and | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
secondly, which is your point, which is that if the 50p does not raise | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
money as we had hoped from the very, very wealthiest, remember | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
the top 1%, not the middle classes, it's the top 1%, then of course | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
need to look, and as the himself has said, we've got to look | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
at other ways to ensure they pay their fair share. So it stays | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
unless there is an alternative; yes or no? It stays unless we can first | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
make more progress tax burden on people on lower and | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
middle-incomes and secondly sure as the Chancellor himself has | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
said, we can find other ways that the wealthiest pay their fair share. | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
Just on tax generally, I think tax Just on tax generally, I think tax | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
and benefits generally, you have one debate which is about the sort of | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
cheats on the benefit system moment bottom and a lot of noise | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
quite rightly quite rightly about how people get | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
out of paying their fair the top. We have to remember that | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
the real pre-occupation should what happens to those millions of | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
people on ordinary incomes, and middle-incomes. They often get | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
overlooked in this debate about what happens, the benefits system at the | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
bottom, the wealthiest at the top. The Liberal Democrats are there | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
really support and be on the side of millions of people who play by the | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
rules, work hard, pay their taxes and are feeling unenormous | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
right now. A lot of Conservatives feel that those very same people, | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
who are often the victims of the riots over the summer, are also | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
furious about the way that criminals get off, about the fact that we | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
can't send people out of the when they've come in here | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
they've committed crimes, are looking more and more at | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
Human Rights Act as something getting in the way. Again, there is | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
a government research being done on the effect of the Human Rights Act | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
to see if parts of that can be removed or watered down | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
with in some other way for what they would say are common sense reasons | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
that most people approve of. Look, anyone, any rational person looking | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
at the people who have gone through the court system after the riots | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
would say that the big problem not the Human Rights Act, it has | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
nothing to do with the Human Rights Act; the big problem is that we have | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
been far too soft on repeat crime this country for far, far too long. | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
Lots and lots of these people actually it now turns out had a | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
long, long criminal record. As as your arm. What has gone wrong is | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
that, despite all the tough talk from Labour, pouring more and more | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
people into the prison system, that has happened is they've come | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
out again, our prisons have become colleges of crime and young | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
offenders of today become hardened criminals of tomorrow. That's why | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
I'm very supportive and excited about Ken Clarke's revolution - You | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
called him a Liberal Democrat minister last night. I think he has | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
got it absolutely right justice. Stop discussions about the | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
Human Rights Act which has to do with the sentences passed. I | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
think you just finished his career off as far as his party is | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
concerned. Probably the kiss death. Let's keep talking about | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
Europe, however. What's the message to those Conservative Eurosceptics | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
who got together in a new organisation, they are talking to | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
Labour Eurosceptics as well and we need to loosen our relationship | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
now with Europe, we need to repatriate powers and they | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
looking forward to a referendum before too long and we get another | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
European Treaty. Sure, what is the strategic national interest for | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
United Kingdom in the European Union? In my view unambiguous, | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
probably the greatest achievement in recent years was ironically enough | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
British achievement. It was British Commissioner, a guy who | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
created the world's largest borderless single market. | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
Margaret Thatcher's government, Conservative government that | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
introduced the single European act that allowed British businesses here | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
in Birmingham, in the Midlands, to invent things, manufacture things | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
and then export them completely freely into the largest consumer | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
market in the world. I personally think that our absolute overriding | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
priority, if you want to protect jobs, communities, families, is to | :36:30. | :36:37. | |
actually deepen and widen that liberal, open, free market right | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
our doorstep. If instead what you do is you indulge in I think a complete | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
distraction, which is sort of creating a top ten hit list of the | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
specific directives you don't particularly like - by the way, | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
there are directives that I don't technically like - you just miss the | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
big picture which is that if eurozone, as I hope they will, | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
stabilise things by basically getting their act together and | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
integrating a bit further in certain ways to really make sure | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
eurozone is a success, the last thing we should do is say: in | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
case we wash our hands will enterprise and we will get out | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
- the whole enterprise. That will destroy jobs and prosperity in this | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
country. I think we should say in run for this we want | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
into the single market which is still not complete. And you still | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
want to join the euro? there is absolutely no question of | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
this country joining the euro, certainly not during this | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
government. To call that impossibility is to put it mildly. | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
Absolutely, but in principle you still in favour of this currency, | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
which is unravelling? No, I will tell you what I am in principle in | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
favour of, people simply recognising geographical reality. We are in the | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
Europe. We are not in Alaska. We are not on the other side of | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
Atlantic. We are not nestled geographically next to China. Europe | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
influences us. Whether you like EU or not it has a massive effect | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
our everyday life and I want us, if you like, to have the kind of | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
bulldog confidence of the British spirit to say, instead of constantly | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
looking for excuses to get out of the game, get in there, shape it, | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
influence it and do so in national interest. What is our | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
plan? How are we going to react if Greece and possibly other countries | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
are forced out of the are facing a dramatically worsening | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
situation there? Look, I really, really hope it won't come to that | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
because that's not only bad for the eurozone, as you rightly imply that | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
has knock-on effects on the banking system across - But if it does? | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
The world as a whole would need it take dramatic measures. It's one of | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
the reasons both in the EU the G8 and G20, we are playing a | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
very active role in saying the has to react in a co-ordinated | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
fashion. We can't simply sit back and say that somehow what's going | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
over there has nothing to do with us. It's all to do with us as well. | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
OK. Your wife, we read, has a from you, that you are going to only | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
serve one term. Is that true? Can I put this mildly? I really wouldn't | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
believe a world you on Sunday. This is the paper that | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
called me a Nazi. They have a bee in their bonnet about the | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
the Liberal Democrats and they come up with drivel every single day. I'm | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
in this because I believe it's the right thing to do. Miriam supports | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
me fully in this and I want to us succeed in the coalition | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
government and beyond. Let me explain why - Before we get there, | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
asked you a very, very clear question. Are you in this for | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
term only or do you intend Liberal Democrat | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
intend to see it through term? Absolutely, I intend to see | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
it well beyond one term, all right? There you go, Daily Mail, wrong. | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
There's a surprise. That's very clear. In the same account, however, | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
we also heard that your party done quite a lot of work on a new | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
coalition agreement that you are going to discuss and negotiate with | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
the Conservatives for the second half of this Parliament. Is that | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
right? Again, that account - I haven't read it but I have been told | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
says two diametrically opposite things. One that we are plotting to | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
negotiate a new coalition and the next, we are plotting to get | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
out of the coalition. Let me tell you what we are actually planning to | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
do and let me be open about this. There's in secret about it. I | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
if you look at what the country has been through over the last few | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
years, the really kind of difficult circumstances we have been through, | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
there are millions of people who want a political party that | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
you can create a strong economy and a fair society, and don't like | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
told that you have to choose between one or the other. That's what | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
Liberal Democrats are about. We are a party of the head and the heart. | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
For a long, long time the left - this is really important, can I | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
finish - the left have said you can look after ordinary families but | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
then you end up bankrupting the economy. The right says you can sort | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
out the economy but let ordinary families. Evening we've got | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
to do both - I think we've got to both. That's political aspiration, | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
what I'm asking about is whether, for instance, your aide, Polly | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
Mackenzie I think her name is, has actually drawn up a list of new | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
things that you want to negotiate with the Conservatives during | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
Parliament for its second half. that true or not true? I haven't | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
seen that list, so I can't tell whether that's true. That's not | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
quite saying it's not true. I no idea, Andrew. It's the Liberal | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
Democrats, come on. I don't control what people do on their desktops | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
every single day. Let me tell you, the government's priority is to | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
deliver the coalition agreement most importantly to rescue | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
repair the economy. Can I just jump in there because you have actually | :41:32. | :41:39. | |
achieved some of the things that you wanted to do - A great deal. | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
your first agreement. Therefore people say it is time to do a second | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
agreement, move to the next and talk about things as parties | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
that you are going to agree. I agree with you and - in a sense | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
the means by which you do this, whether by a list or or there is | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
irrelevant. What do I think is necessary for this government to see | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
through to 2015, of course we are a coalition, we are parties | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
Dorchester identities, that's - different identities and at | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
conference time those identities become even more accentuated but to | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
be a successful government you to be a government with a common | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
purpose and that common purpose is firstly to sort out the economy and | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
secondly, this is certainly my great passion, to make sure | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
same time we give greater opportunity for people to get ahead. | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
What is called in the jargon social mobility. I think that kind of - | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
repair the economy but also a fairer society. The two go together. Is | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
there any part of you, looking the terrible economic circumstances | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
that may be ahead, that thinks actually we do need to go a little | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
slower and cut a little hastily? I think people who | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
advocate that need to think this through. So the answer is no? Does | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
anyone think you will create growth by next Tuesday by ripping up the | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
plan? You would create more unemployment and market panic. | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
The pollster, Philip Gould, was one The pollster, Philip Gould, was one | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
of the key architects of He was recruited in the | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
Peter Mandelson and brought in new ideas, most notably focus groups, | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
asking the public detailed questions about politics to broaden | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
appeal. He was crucial to Tony Blair's election victories. He has | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
just published an analysis of Labour which has long been required | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
reading for politicians of all parties but the past few years have | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
been dominated by a very different battle, against cancer of the | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
oesophagus. Despite gruelling treatment, that cancer has now | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
recurred and he now not recover. I met Philip Gould at | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
his home. I hope you will agree that what follows is a remarkable and | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
rather unusual interview for political programme like this. But | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
first, I asked him about Tony Blair's leadership style. He says it | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
was like "driving down the centre of the road very fast, pushing | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
everything else to one side", but where, I asked, did they really know | :44:03. | :44:13. | |
Tony did believe that values and an Tony did believe that values and an | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
explicit sense of purpose should be kept for the most part quiet. He | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
really did have a Church and State thing on this. He really thought his | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
private spiritual life was over and his public, pragmatic life was | :44:28. | :44:37. | |
over there. So that meant that much of his rhetoric, much of argument, | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
narrative, was focused on the pragmatic rather than the - What's | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
it all for? What's it all for, yes. Now, it is one of the big | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
my book, I think, that this failure. I do think that leadership | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
depends on purpose. I think that individuals depend on purpose, | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
think that politics depend on purpose. I think that in this world | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
that is so chaotic and so disordered, without purpose you | :45:04. | :45:12. | |
lost. It's an essential part of leadership now and I don't think he | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
did that absolutely perfectly. In your diaries, there's the accounts | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
of the arguments, the now famous endless arguments between Gordon | :45:21. | :45:28. | |
Brown and Tony Blair. Yes. Go and on and on, and were clearly so | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
destructive of energy and purpose, and so on? Yes. Was that just an | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
inevitable clash of two very, very different personalities, | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
different world views that was never going to be harmoniously reconciled? | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
I think what happened there was this, that Gordon did believe that | :45:45. | :45:53. | |
he would come to be leader Labour Party and that the supporters | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
around him I suppose believed that even more. They were so close, so | :45:57. | :46:03. | |
close working together. You would go into their office, and you would be | :46:03. | :46:11. | |
met by a kind of a wall of energy. Yes. Piling towards you, and | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
would both be on their computers, there would be papers everywhere, | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
bits of sock, bits of this everywhere, it was a completely | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
chaotic sense, but a sense of huge, huge energy. Tony and Gordon were | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
just remarkable in those days. It was incredible. And they were close | :46:33. | :46:43. | |
:46:43. | :46:45. | ||
too. Increasingly close, I think. So they were almost one person. | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
Certainly felt like brothers to me. And yet there would be only one | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
person and as it went on increasingly it was going to be | :46:57. | :47:04. | |
Tony. I knew it would be Tony. Others knew it would be Tony. But | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
it's hard to tell Gordon because he is on the one hand a very tough | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
individual but a very individual too and it just was too | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
much for him and it grew from there. Can we turn to talk about your | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
cancer. Yes. And how that in many ways meshes with the politics | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
you have been describing. Because you've had three major recurrences | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
but right at the beginning you chose to go private in America. I think | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
later on you came to think that actually the NHS might have been | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
better choice? Yes. That's so. I talk to a lot of people in the | :47:43. | :47:50. | |
and they said: look, if the best place to go is at Sloane-Kettering. | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
In New York? Yes, and the level of quality was good, but then about | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
year or two years later it clearly had returned. So you go up to | :48:02. | :48:09. | |
Newcastle and you are confronted or you meet this excellent surgeon. | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
Yes. Who as it happened had been at school with Tony Blair. Yes. | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
was vehemently pro-NHS, not very keen on southerners, you said, not | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
very keen on private health? No, his position was basically: | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
anti-Southerner, anti-private, anti-New Labour. But the quality of | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
nursing there, the quality of care, the quality of the surgery was | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
outstanding. So in the end the NHS had the best place, not the | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
States? No, the NHS had the place here, for sure. So where are | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
you now in terms of the cancer? Where we are now is this, that we | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
went on holiday with Gail, and this was such an important moment | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
She was packing her stuff weeks in She was packing her stuff weeks in | :48:55. | :49:02. | |
advance. It was so important that we went on holiday for once. And | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
we would go to sort of have and Gail would be saying "Eat more, | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
eat more, eat more", because she knew I was thinning and I was eating | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
it but I saw my weight going down. If your weight goes down, your | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
eating is problematic. I had one or two other symptoms too. So I came | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
back, called the Marsden up, went in for a blood test and they phoned up | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
and said your blood tumour mark has gone up from 5% two or three weeks | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
ago to 58%, and at that point that's it. I knew that was it. I | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
Gail up and she said "That's it", and so we knew. They called us in | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
and they said: look, lymph nodes here, it's in the lymph | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
nodes there, it's going to tin nodes there, it's going | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
nodes there, it's going to continue and you will never get clear of this | :49:55. | :50:02. | |
now. I said: how long to live? Professor Cunningham said "Three | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
months." Then Gail months." Then Gail - the worst case | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
was three months. Gail the best case? And he said "Three | :50:13. | :50:21. | |
months". This time, it was clear. I was in a different place, a death | :50:21. | :50:28. | |
zone, where there was such an intensity, such a power, and | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
apparently this is normal. So even though obviously I would rather | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
be in this position, it is the extraordinary time of my life, | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
certainly the most important time my life. You said an extraordinary | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
thing before about this, which is being in the death zone you would | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
not have chosen this, but you wouldn't want to walk away from it. | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
No, no. And you wouldn't have wanted to die as the person that you | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
were before the recurrence of cancer. No, that was certainly true | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
in the early - it's certainly true that after the first recurrence, | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
had not wish to have died the I was. But when you get to the final | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
stage, the death zone, you are dealing with something which is so | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
intense. I mean, I look out of the window and I feel the intensity. The | :51:13. | :51:21. | |
intensity of my wife, the intensity of my family; that is it the natural | :51:21. | :51:28. | |
place to be. To leave this now, to leave this extraordinary place now, | :51:28. | :51:37. | |
I would not want to do that. This is the final place. | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
And the right place for me at this And the right place for me at this | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
time is to be in the final place. Can I ask you one other | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
about that? Yes. Which is something that your wife Gail | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
to you, that politics, being involved in politics, was somehow | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
connected to your cancer, that the nastiness of politics and the | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
aggression of politics had somehow contributed to your cancer. | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
think that's true. What would have been better for me would have been | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
to have said: I'll do what I can do, which I do quite well, and then just | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
push it back a little bit. Of course, the other side of it is that | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
it's only because I am obsessive and a nut case when it comes to politics | :52:21. | :52:29. | |
that I've done what I've done. What would you say, as, as it were, a | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
testamental thought to Ed and the Labour Party as it is now? | :52:32. | :52:41. | |
I think at one and the same time he has to have a strategy that deals | :52:41. | :52:48. | |
with the hard end of it. I mean, really does have to nail down the | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
economy, and I am sure he will. And make sure we are the party of the | :52:53. | :53:02. | |
:53:03. | :53:03. | ||
economy. He has to nail down responsibility and make us the party | :53:03. | :53:10. | |
of the responsible electorate, and I think he has to. | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
think he has to be tough in the way that he deals with some of these | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
issues. I think that is the combination that wins the election. | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
And it would be a good thing for Labour if thinks brother was able to | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
be alongside him in this journey? Well, I would very much like that | :53:24. | :53:31. | |
and I think what better epitaph for the whole book really, as a book | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
that starts with the angularity and the difficulty with the relationship | :53:37. | :53:44. | |
between two almost brothers, ending in I hope friendship between | :53:44. | :53:52. | |
I think that may well happen. I - I think that may well happen. I - | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
look, I lived under - I was born under a Labour government. And I am | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
determined to die under a Labour government. Obviously will have | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
get a move on, but that is what I want to happen. But I | :54:07. | :54:15. | |
message is: have faith. And try change the world. | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
Philip Gould, whose journey with Philip Gould, whose journey with | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
cancer has changed him in good ways as well as bad. You can see a | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
version of that interview on website. Now back to London with | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
said he doesn't think it's morally or economically right to get rid of | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
the 50p rate of tax at the moment. He said he would block its abolition | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
until it's replaced with another form of tax on wealthy people such | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
as a property tax. Prayers will be said across South | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the flooded Gleision | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
Colliery. An appeal fund set yesterday to help the bereaved | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
families has already raised �20,000. That's all from me, now back to | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
Andrew in Birmingham. Many thanks. Well, she was born just | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
up the road from here Wolverhampton and got her | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
introduction to gospel music in Church there. Beverley Knight, you | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
are a great standard-bearer for British soul. Thank you. | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
to us why British soul is different from American soul. Well, in terms | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
of what you hear, it's massively influenced by the black diaspora, | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
people coming from Africa with their rhythms and then people like | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
parents coming from the West Indies with the reggae and syncopated | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
rhythms driven heavily by bass so that pretty much weighs up the | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
difference between that and the American sound which doesn't have | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
that back ground. You are going give us something by a British song | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
writer? Absolutely, George Michael. One of the best. We will enjoy that | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
in just a much indeed for now. It is time | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
me to exit, I am afraid. Join us again next week when we are back | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
the usual time of 9.00 when we will be in Liverpool for the Labour | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
conference, talking to the Opposition, Ed Miliband. Until | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
then we leave you with Beverley Knight and George Michael's song, | :56:08. | :56:18. | |
:56:18. | :56:27. | ||
# I've had enough of danger # I've had enough of danger | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
# And people on the streets # I'm looking out for angels | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
# Yeah # Just trying to find some peace | :56:39. | :56:48. | |
:56:49. | :56:52. | ||
# Now I think it's time # You'll let me know | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
# So when you say that you love me # You'll never, never leave me | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
# I know you're wrong # You're not that strong | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
# Just let me go # Teacher | :57:08. | :57:15. | |
# There are things that I still have to learn | :57:15. | :57:25. | |
:57:25. | :57:26. | ||
# And this last thing I have # Is my pride | :57:26. | :57:34. | |
# I don't want to learn to # Hold you, touch you | :57:34. | :57:43. | |
# Think that you're mine # 'Cos it ain't no joy | :57:43. | :57:53. | |
:57:53. | :57:57. |