19/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

When it comes to Brexit, think again.

And what came back was a kind of Wagnerian raspberry.

To talk about Tony Blair and "rising up" against Brexit,

I'm joined by one of his closest political friends, the former

From a master of the political game of chess to the real thing.

I've been speaking to former world champion, Garry Kasparov,

about his opposition to Putin, and Donald Trump.

Responding for the government, Justice Secretary Liz Truss.

She'll be talking too about the images of drugs,

violence and anarchy in prisons on our TV screens this week.

And speaking of anarchy, I've been talking to Tom Hollander

about his dazzling return to the stage in a Tom Stoppard classic.

Describe the play briefly omitting all but essential detail.

Plus we've got music from Chuck Prophet, the sound

# Want to go out but I'll probably stay home #.

That's my editor's desperate attempt to make me seem even slightly cool.

Reviewing the papers this morning, the Labour MP, Caroline Flint,

Tim Shipman of the Sunday Times, and Ukip's only MP,

All that coming up soon, but first the news with Christian Fraser.

Thousands of prison officers in London and south-east England

are getting an immediate pay increase of between

Ministers have made the decision to try to boost recruitment

and retain staff in the face of increasing violence.

Our home affairs correspondent, Tom Symonds, reports.

They are on the front line of the troubled prison service.

Their numbers have been falling in recent years.

And now the government is putting in place a ?12 million pay offer

to keep them in their jobs and attract new people.

But only officers in 31 prisons in London and the south-east,

including this one in Wandsworth, will benefit.

They are the jails under the most pressure,

The offer is for standard grade three prison officers, not more

The pay package for new recruits will be boosted by ?5,000

But the Prison Officers Association believes this offer won't

We are going to welcome additional money for our members,

of course we are, but we don't think this goes far enough

We believe it needs to be a national issue.

The government is also increasing training,

vital if it is to deal with the growing modern threats

to order behind bars - mental health issues along

with what ministers describe as drugs, drones and mobile phones.

Iraqi forces have begun a major offensive to retake

the western half of Mosul from Islamic State militants.

Hundreds of vehicles and men are taking part,

supported by coalition air strikes against militant positions.

Mosul is the last major IS stronghold in Iraq.

Government forces secured the eastern part of the city

last month after weeks of fierce fighting.

President Trump has made a robust defence of his first four weeks

in office and insisted that a new spirit of optimism

Speaking to supporters at an airport hanger in Florida,

he repeated his campaign pledges to create jobs, improve

security and repeal President Obama's health reforms.

Mr Trump again turned his fire on the media, accusing the press

The President's wife, Melania, also made a rare appearance

I will always stay true to myself and be truthful to you,

no matter what the opposition is saying about me.

The chief executive of Sainsbury's has joined the growing row over

the re-evaluation of business rates - the commercial

Mike Coupe says the changes coming into effect in April

unfairly affect businesses with lots of property and staff.

He warned that high street stores could close.

The government says the majority of firms will pay the same or less.

Finally, football and in the first time in over a century

a non-league side has made it through to the quarterfinals

The fifth tier side, Lincoln City - known as the Imps -

beat the Premier League's Burnley 1-0 with a dramatic

The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

And there are Lincoln City on the front page Anne Main story is about

an Islamist plot to take over a teacher in Burnley -- and the main

story. The Mail on Sunday, you may have thought the Edward Heath story

had gone away, he was a paedophile according to the paper. This is from

a police officer who is not quoted directly so we will talk about that.

The Observer is leaving on chaos looming for EU citizens who hope to

stay in Britain, a very live story in both Houses of Parliament at the

moment. The Sunday Telegraph has a story about a Kremlin conspiracy to

assassinate the leader of Montenegro. It been around before

but as you read it is still pretty gory stuff. And finally all of the

Pops being properly. -- poppy. This is about the calls on

Healthline is about children whose parents are so drunk they can't read

them bedtime stories. We will start with Edward Heath. Tim Shipman, you

are an expert on all things parliamentary, is there anything in

this? There would appear to be, we thought this had gone away, one of

the people accusing Edward Heath on wrongdoing had since been exposed as

a fantasist and as a result people thought the allegations had gone

away. This story said the police officer in Wiltshire who has been

investigating claims there are 30 witnesses who are providing evidence

that rings true and they are saying the same kind of things in different

parts of the country and he has a report coming in June. It is clear

that it will show... To accuse the former prime ministers being a

paedophile. He says he is 120% sure there is something in it so let's

hope his investigative is better than his knowledge of percentages!

And we have two Agaba elections this week. Depending on which pay bit you

read, you get different fictions about what will happen -- two

by-elections. The observer thinks you will see of Ukip in

Stoke-on-Trent. This reflects some of what I heard on Friday when I was

campaigning in Stoke is that the dodgy tales around the past of

walnut or are causing concern among voters. -- Paul Nuttall. It is a

hard-fought campaign undoubtedly but I think Labour's spirit are better

than a few weeks ago because of Paul Nuttall damaging his own campaign.

And both of you, the Labour Party and Ukip, you both kinds need to win

this campaign. Nigel Farage has said it is fundamental to Ukip to win in

Stoke-on-Trent. It is important, it could turn out to be like the Spen

Valley by-election in 1919 when an established old party was finally

seen off by NU incident -- buy a new insurgent. If we win this, like that

by-election almost 100 years ago, it could mark eight turning point by

which Labour is displaced. Clearly Paul Nuttall has had some trouble.

What is your feeling about the accuracy on the streets Chris Rock

the article in the sun gets it right, we are still an underdog and

we're up against a party which has been running Stoke since 1950. Their

majority is pretty thin now, you only need about 9000 votes to win

the by-election and I think we could do it. Being very cautious! You have

said you thought Tony Blair's intervention on Brexit with badly

timed for the by-election. I don't think it will affect it, whether

Tony made his speech this week or more generally about things next

week. The issue is not about whether he should offer a comment, he is

completely entitled to do so, it is whether his advice about running a

two-year campaign to try to overturn the referendum is the right way

forward and I don't believe it is. We have to accept the result and get

the best deal we can. No matter what happens? To the economy? Tony knows

that in the next two years where we will get to the headlines of what

the exiting agreement will be it could be five, six, seven years

beyond that, a transitional period when we really knows the details of

what will happen. In the meantime, there is a lot to argue for and

campaign for and one of the things is the government sought at this EU

national issue. Certainly in the Sunday Telegraph, the cartoonist

agrees, that this was not great timing. There is an amusing image of

voters in despair at the fact that Mr Blair is back. You want if he

wants to win these by-elections, for his wing of the body in my be better

to lose both of them. This also plays straight into the Ukip message

in Stoke, that if you are voting Labour in our voting for a party

that wants to subvert the referendum and in a city that voted

overwhelmingly to leave, he is helping. Things were set on both

sides in the referendum campaign that were overblown but some of the

worst things were said in three had ?50 million at August has not helped

us. -- 300 ?50 million. We have to get the best deal, that is what most

important. As an adult were sent reporters

The people I speak to think Stoke is a toss-up, that Labour might be

edging it at the moment but the Copeland by-election is looking good

for the Conservative Party and Labour has haemorrhaged about a

third of its vote since 2015. There is also a story which explains, you

come across six Labour peers who are thinking of giving up the Labour

whip in the House of Lords and becoming crossbenchers as part of

their move towards the Lib Dems to maximise the anti-Brexit vote. And

they appear to have been speaking to the Conservative Party as well.

There is not a mood to do direct defections and caused trouble,

everybody thought there would be a leadership challenge against Jeremy

Corbyn but this is just evidence of people gently pulling back and

saying, we no longer want to take the Labour whip. They are quite

happy to have the Lib Dems putting the whipping card in their

pigeonholed and unofficial alignment will develop and when you speak to

become an Knutzon, I'm sure you'll be interested to know about this

right alignment that's going on -- when you speak to Peter Mandelson.

Is he one of the six? Not to my knowledge but maybe it is seven! And

the next story, business rates. On the news just now we heard this was

a real crisis for shops and pubs and restaurants. I think this story is

the potential to clobber the government because although most

businesses will not be any worse off, about a quarter will. If you

are running a business and the rates go up by over 100%, you're going to

squeak pretty loudly. Perhaps what we are seeing is that this

government is grappling with the legacy of John Major's government

who signed up to the Maastricht Treaty which led to Brexit but his

decision to nationalise business rates, that is catching up with the

government. You cannot carry on running a system, we need a whole

new system. You would think that with the governed that is therefore

that just about managing people and worried about Isis, this is not a

fight they can afford. There is a suggestion that the government is

going to try to moderate the business rate rises -- worried about

it. There is a budget coming up and if something can be done to stop the

worst effect of this, the Chancellor might have to listen but he doesn't

have a lot of money to play with. Sometimes people sake MPs don't do

enough campaigning but this is an affront of the Sunday express. As

you said, the front-page story is about a little girl ringing up a

helpline saying, my mummy is drunk, please read to me. This is the

National Association of children of alcoholics, and they read her a

bedtime story while her parents were drunk. Myself and other MPs across

party have launched a manifesto for children of alcoholics because it

has been overlooked for many years. There are adult services do not

adults with addiction problems but nothing for the children. Part of

the recent we are talking about this is because we are children of

alcoholics as well. And presumably there was no way of knowing how many

kids there are? We recognise but one in five children, about 2.5 million

children, which are affected by this. I know it is the case for

myself and others who have been in this situation, often it is the

secrecy and shame that prevent it being heard. Children who live with

alcoholics, something like twice as many are likely to struggle at

school, three times as many are likely to consider suicide and four

times are likely to become alcoholic themselves. Did this blight your own

life? It did, the secrecy and shame, it took me many years to even be

able to talk about it because obviously with parents like this,

you can love them and hate them in the same day and it's very

difficult. Certainly for me... To go to university were to try to find a

new way of life and get away from it but I'm pleased this has been

covered and I hope more of the media will pick it up and we will get

something done. The story about the Russians

plotting to assassinate the leader of Montenegro, which is a tiny

country with a lot of Russian exiles and oligarchs who have money. A

sunny, small Balkan country, what more do we know about this country?

It's an extraordinary thing that on our doorstep this kind of thing is

going on. If you juxtapose that story with this picture of the North

Korean chap who has basically been assassinated in an airport, we talk

a lot in this country about the tensions of Brexit. It seemed at

times that we have never been so divided but actually we are living

in a world where the Russians are trying to assassinate people in

Europe. Elsewhere in the world people are going round killing

people in airports and I think we have got a lot to be great --

grateful for in this country. Douglas Carswell, you were

mentioning business rates, you have another economic story there, the

basic income. It's an idea that's becoming terribly fashionable and

everyone says it is a new idea, but actually it was tried a couple of

thousand years ago. And the idea is simply everybody gets paid the same

amount of basic money. Every citizen gets paid an allowance whether you

work or not. It is put forward as a new idea. It is very trendy at the

moment, yes. But it was tried by the Romans 2000 and something years ago.

The Roman corn dog, and it was a disaster. Behind the basic income

would be the idea of the parasite of prosperity. We borrow so that people

don't have to work today, not a sensible idea. Thank you very much

indeed. Something very strange

in the air this week. A kind of yeasty, unsettling,

almost fragrant atmosphere. It's beginning to feel

a bit like spring. Yes, certainly beginning to feel

that way, isn't it? We have a mild westerly breeze today but

differences across the UK showed by our weather watcher pictures. Here

we have low, grey cloud but in East Yorkshire we have beautiful blue

skies and the best of the sunshine will be always across sheltered

eastern parts of England, and possibly into the Welsh Marches

further west. There will be helpful, misty weather and drizzle around as

well, but a mild day wherever you are. Temperatures in double figures

if you get the sunshine 13 degrees is quite likely. We have rain

arriving in Scotland and Northern Ireland at the end of the day and

into evening. We are left with an awful lot of cloud, hill fog despite

a freshening breeze but really mild night, temperatures not dropping

much at all. But windy tomorrow, gusty winds, bumpy winds, eastern

Scotland, rain moving. Southwards Behind it we will get some sunshine

in Scotland. Cooler weather with the sunshine in the north. In the mild

air, if we get sunshine temperatures could be up to 16, even 17 Celsius.

Enjoy it if you can. Last night I was sitting outside enjoying a glass

of wine in the open air. Garry Kasparov was the world's

number one chess player for more than 20 years,

a grand master considered by many to be the greatest player

of all time, but he then went on to become a leading activist

against President Vladimir Putin. Now living in the United States,

I spoke to him earlier about the relationship

between Russia and the US I began by asking him

about the events of the past week and whether the resignation

of Donald Trump's National Security Adviser, General Michael Flynn,

was a tale of White House intrigue, or something more

globally significant. It's more like a geopolitical

scandal because the United States is the leader of the free world

and the man in charge of national security, as Mr Flynn was,

is definitely in the centre of US foreign policy and relations

with Russia are also very important because everyone understands

that the Russian dictator, Vladimir Putin, is now

representing a threat not only to the United States

but to the free world as a whole. President Trump has angrily

and vehemently denied that he is compromised

by the Russians or that he has Do you nevertheless believe that

Russian intelligence has penetrated more deeply and widely

into the American administration We don't know for sure but,

you know, it's not about Mr Trump having an investment in Russia,

it's whether Putin and the Russian oligarchs have investment

in Mr Trump's business empire But his denial to release his taxes

raises more questions. It's very odd, this relationship

between Mr Trump and Mr Putin. Mr Trump has not said anything

other than nice things about President Putin for a long

time and vice versa. At some kind of human level

they clearly rather like each other. It's not also surprising

because Putin is a dictator and definitely he prefers to deal

with another strong man and Mr Trump is also known for his affinity

to strong man and strong measures. We should remember that in 1989

he applauded the decisive action of the Chinese Communist party

in Tiananmen Square. And I think Mr Trump also sees Putin

as a potential counterpart to make decisions in one on one

negotiations, some kind Some people would say,

actually what is wrong with Trump Had it been Hillary Clinton

in the White House, we know there would have been immediate

confrontation and actually, given the way the world

is shaped at the moment, isn't the world safer

with an American president and a Russian president who,

whatever you think of their personal qualities,

do seem to have a good relationship? No, good, solid relations should be

built on common ground, on certain values that are shared

and the understanding that both sides are willing to follow

the conditions of the agreement The potential grand bargain

between Trump and Putin is not just a deal between America and Russia,

this deal, we understand, will be made, if it's made,

at the expense of American traditional allies and democracies

and Nato members and that will be the end of the global infrastructure

that guaranteed security You have a book coming out

about all of this titled Winter Is Coming,

about Putin's Russia. Do you think that,

after the incursions into parts of Ukraine and the Crimea,

that he's going to go further? Do you think the rest

of Ukraine is genuinely I doubt that he is willing

to take risk of open That's why I would rule out now

immediate military actions against Baltic nations

which are members of Nato. Further attacks on Ukraine

could cost him dearly because the Ukraine army is strong

enough and the resistance proved But he doesn't have

to use military force. So far he was quite successful

in using KGB methods, clandestine operations,

influencing the free world from within using our technologies,

technologies that were invented in the free world and the freedom

of speech and the political system which helps him to bring his allies,

like Le Front Nationale in France or other ultra-nationalist

or radical left parties in Europe to help him to lift sanctions

and to spread his soft power, his influence that will help him

to dominate the continent. The last time we spoke I think

you were still based in Russia and you left Russia and then one

of your closest friends At the time you said you thought

Putin would not last eventually, There is still almost two years to

go and obviously it's a short time, from a historical perspective,

but for dictatorships, We know that dictatorships

like Putin's, they are very vulnerable to a dramatic shift

in the geopolitical realities. People who oppose him either killed

or in jail or in exile. But at the same time,

he is betting on his image of a strongman and also

the continuous financial cooperation And if he is met by the decisive

actions from the United States and the European Union,

who knows what happens? But of course I wouldn't

bet my bottom dollar that it But if the bets are attractive,

I'm willing to take my chance. You are now one of the prime

opposition voices against President Putin around the world

which is why we are talking to you. Can I ask you, do you

feel safe in Brooklyn? But yes, look, it's definitely

much safer than Moscow. I didn't think I would have

to leave my country. After all, I'm probably one

of the most decorated Soviet Russian That is the last four years, I live

here with my family and again, I believe in American democracy

and I believe that my safety here, if it's not guaranteed 100%

but definitely I could rely on American political system

to guarantee that I will not be targeted as easily as I could be

in many other places in the world. Garry Kasparov, I think I'm

allowed to say good luck. Thank you very much

for talking to us. Tony Blair delivered his most

outspoken political intervention since leaving office this week,

with his call to pro-Europeans Who better to discuss this

than his old ally, Peter Mandelson, now observing the scene

from the House of Lords? Brexit is going to happen, isn't it?

The question, Andrew, is on what terms and what we've learned since

the referendum and obviously the Government has to respect and

parliament has to respect the decision, the majority decision

expressed in the referendum even though it represented only 37% of

the public. Who voted to leave. What's changed is the Government's

decision about the terms on which we are going to leave the European

Union, and in her speech at Lancaster house, Mrs May made clear

that we were just going to leave the European Union but we were going to

leave every single bit of the single market, the customs union, and that

in my view is going to have a profound impact on our trade in

Europe which is our biggest export market. There are many people who

voted to remain in the referendum, but I think many people who voted to

leave and are now wondering about the terms on which this will happen

want to have their voices heard again. At the moment the 48% has

gone down to 42% supporting remain, actually remain is moving backwards

and not forwards... I'm sorry, other opinion polls say that many leave

supporters who voted that way in the referendum don't want a hard Brexit.

They are having collywobbles and that needs to be reflected by

Parliament. The real question is Tony Blair says we need to rise up,

Brexit doesn't need to happen, and my question is how will that not

happen. In the polls, certainly some of the polls in the country you are

moving the other way so I don't see how this rising up is going to

happen. The reason why' the campaigning organisation with which

I'm associated along with others, asked Mr Blair to make this speech,

and the reason why we asked him to make it last week before the Brexit

legislation goes to the House of Lords for debate tomorrow on

Tuesday, is because we firmly believe that many people voted in

the referendum and have no idea on the terms on which the Government

would decide to leave the European Union. Now that is the big change in

circumstances. I get that. Many people across the country, people

who don't have an extreme view one way or another, they are not extreme

pro-Brexit, not extreme anti-Brexit, they are not extreme left or right,

but they feel they are being bulldozed. They feel their voices

are not being heard or expressed in Parliament and we are saying sign up

to ( And, and many have, you've us some money and help us campaign

against this exit at all costs which the Government are determined to see

through. I'm still not clear what people can do, they can sign up but

this is a political question that depends on vote in the country and

the House of Commons. Tony Blair has talked about breaking the bounds of

the party, having some cross-party movement, that somehow politics has

been so radically shifted... But what alternative to people have? If

you look at what happened in the House of Commons, the Supreme Court

said Parliament must decide. The Government used their majority to

bulldoze the legislation. With a lot of help from the Labour Party. No, I

will come back that in the moment. To bulldoze the legislation through

Parliament. I hope they will not be so successful in the House of Lords.

And when it came to a proposal by the Labour Party to enable

Parliament to come back and have a meaningful vote with a proper check

and a proper balance on the outcome of the negotiation, not the result

of the referendum but the outcome of the referendum, the Government gave

verbal guarantee at first that that would happen but wouldn't accept an

amendment to the bill, but afterwards said, but this will only

be take it or leave it, you can choose between a bad deal and no

deal at all. What we are saying is that what Parliament must agree is

to say look at the final deal, look at the outcome of the negotiation,

and if it's not good for Britain, if it is potentially going to be a

disaster for our economy, send the Government back to the negotiating

table. You mentioned the House of Lords, there are two sets of

amendments coming out next week, one is the vote you were just

discussing, the vote at the end of the process, and one is to give more

guaranteed rights to use its sins in the UK. Is it your view the

Government can be defeated on both of those?

I think it is, there is a strong body of opinion cross and among

independent peers that both these issues are very serious but when it

comes to EU citizens, the British government is not negotiating with

itself and there will be people amongst the member states who say,

no, we don't want to take this issue now, we will take it later on during

the negotiations because it is as much a negotiating gambit for them

as it is for Britain. This is the overriding question in British

politics for you? It is because so much hinges on it. That being so,

given that the only part which is clearly anti-Brexit if the Lib Dems,

should they vote for them in the future -- are the only party. People

should be putting pressure on parliamentarians from all parties

trying to instil a bit of courage in the Tory MPs as well, most of whom

seem to have capitulated to the ideologues in their party but yes,

pressure on the Labour Party and the Lib Dems and the greens to say, you

have got to speak up for us when the time comes. Let me ask you about

what might happen after those House of Lords votes. Suppose they do vote

to amend the article with the legislation and it goes back to the

House of Commons and presumably the government uses the majority to take

it back to the House of Lords. Do we get a long period of ping-pong or

does the House of Lords say, the referendum was clear and the Commons

are clear, it is time to give up? At the end of the day, the House of

Commons must prevail because it is the elected chamber. And how long is

the day? I hope the House of Lords will not throw in the towel early.

This intervention by Tony Blair has been criticised by a lot of Labour

MPs. Three Labour MPs I countered. -- counted. They were saying that he

is not the right guy. He and you were involved in that decision to

allow the gates open to immigration from the EU early. You sent out the

search parties. And on the key question of immigration, it is the

wrong people leading this charge, and secondly, before these

by-elections, it is the wrong time was up first of all I was famously

not in the government at the time so I did not send out a search parties!

What British businesses did come given we were operating a pretty

full employment economy in 2004, was to say that we need people to work

in our companies, to fill these job vacancies from outside the country.

This is the point, Andrew. What we will see in this negotiation is

three things. We are going to see less trade, you're going to see

Britain paying through the nose for the access we want to negotiate and

you're also going to seek, broadly speaking I suspect, the same numbers

of migrants coming into the country at now. Partly because over the half

of the migrants don't come from the EU, they come from the rest of the

world, and in the case of those who come from Europe, we need them to

fill jobs in our economies. Let's look at the outcome of this, there

will be, hold on, we will have less trade can be paying through the nose

for it and broadly speaking the same number of immigrants coming to the

country. Is that a reasonable deal? Don't you think the public will have

something to say about that outcome when the negotiation ends? I think

they will. That is the last thing that Brexit voters on Stoke-on-Trent

want to hit at the moment and some of the critics and the party think

that what you're trying to do... And they have got to vote against the

government, against the Conservative Party in order to demonstrate that

it is not the sort of outcome they want. And in favour of Jeremy

Corbyn's Labour Party who helped trigger article 50? Who proposed an

amendment to the House of Commons, but there are fewer Labour MPs than

conservative ones, saying that Parliament should have a meaningful

vote on this and that is what I hope the Lord of -- at the House of Lords

will reinstate. It has it that raising this issue helps the SNP in

Scotland and, perhaps by accident, Tony Blair has given Nicola Sturgeon

a great boost and she said she agreed with his speech. I think that

Brexit strengthens the argument of the Nationalists but that is exactly

what we warned in the referendum. If you dig the overall balance of the

argument, I don't think it gives it to the nationalists for this

reasonable sub over six times more the amount of trade by Scotland is

with the rest of the UK, not the EU. If they were to separate from the

UK, the big question would be placed over their trade. How would they do

it? If they re-entered the EU, the rest of the UK was out of it, that

would have an impact on Scottish trade with the rest of the UK and

they have to take that into consideration. Tim Shipman said

earlier that six of your colleagues in the House of Lords want to give

up the Labour whip. Who are they? He didn't give me names. Sounds a bit

like a Sunday newspaper speculation. What is your advice to such people?

To stay in the Labour Party, of course. Despite your worries about

how Jeremy Corbyn has led it? I believe the Labour Party can recover

its ground in British politics, I believe that very firmly and I work

for that every day. For the Labour Party to be successful, it has to

represent the broad swathe of centre-left opinion in this country.

It has also got to demonstrate strength, clarity, sureness of

touch, it has to know what it stands for. Strength against weakness in

British politics is as great a driving factor is left against

right. A lot of people would say, these are all interesting argument

that they were thrashed through during the referendum campaign and

your side lost and that should be it. That is precisely the point.

What we were told in the referendum campaign was that, by Boris Johnson,

I remember, that if we left the EU, we could have the same trade in the

single market as we have now. Hold on...

Boris Johnson said clearly he thought we would leave the single

market. He said we would have the same trade as we have now outside

the single market. David Davis said in the House of Commons the other

day that out of the European Union and the single market and the

customs union we would have the exact same benefits in trade as we

do now. That is a fraud, a fraud. I have been a Trade Minister in this

country and trade commissioner in Europe, I have seen both ends of the

telescope and there is no trade agreement in the world that will

give us the same benefits in trade that we have now if we were to

follow the government's Brexit at all costs negotiations. Lord

Mandelson, thank you for talking to us.

The past 12 months have been golden ones for Tom Hollander.

As the vicious "Corky" in The Night Manager,

Now, he's back in London's West End in one of the most dazzling plays

"Travesties", by Tom Stoppard, is set in Zurich in 1917

and features, among others, Lenin and James Joyce

in a jaw-droppingly intellectual and very funny production.

Hollander plays a real-life British diplomat, Henry Carr,

lured by his own vanity onto the stage.

Describe the play briefly omitting all but essential detail...

Of the reasons for doing the play is that the level of writing

is so brilliant that Stoppard embarks on sentences that

are so literary and complicated and so long that they,

I think, are inspirational and playwriting these days doesn't

often aspire to that level of sheer kind of literary ambition.

And for that reason it's very brilliant to do it now in a world

which appears to be increasingly crude in some ways.

Patrick Marber's production of this play is madcap and fun,

and actually not that reverential, which is I think why people are able

to enjoy it to the extent that they are in a very broad way.

It's not simply intellectual thrills, it is ridiculous

I shall have to make certain expenditures.

After lunch, some byplay amongst the small parts.

You enter in a debonair garden party outfit, beribboned boater,

gaily striped blazer, party coloured shoes,

It's a very, very clever play and it's a very, very funny play.

I was weeping with laughter through this, and it's low

humour and high humour, terrible limericks and dances

and music hall songs and extraordinarily fast wordplay.

Well, I also love it because it's so clever and preposterously

intellectual on one level, to the point where you think, well

This is alienating to a mainstream audience, how can you put it on?

It's almost a sort of over the top excrescence of kind

Everything that is being swept away by the revolution

that we are experiencing now in the world, in the Western world.

But I wonder, this does require and depend upon

You know, who get the jokes about James Joyce, who know just

little about dadar perhaps and certainly get the jokes

about Lenin and his philistinism and so forth.

What is amazing is quite how many people there appear to be who do get

I don't actually think anybody is clever enough to understand

Tom obviously has got to think it up over a period of months.

He didn't come out with it in one great long speech as my character

comes out with stuff that is just preposterously fluent.

As with all plays, they are just constructs.

So it's a sort of vaudevillian display of intellectual brilliance.

It's also, with luck, filled with some real emotion as well.

It should be kind of torturing and soulful.

In literal terms, the way that I think of it is that it's a story

about an old man remembering the best years of his life and he's

getting to the stage in his life where he can't remember right

so the action keeps starting again and it starts slightly

So it's the beginnings of some sort of dementia thing going on,

I find that, in performing it, that's where it has

And one feels warm and sympathetic towards your character,

Henry Carr, and he's a genial figure and a likeable figure.

The same could not be said of Corky in The Night Manager.

Yeah, I mean Corky was a wonderful part.

What you're seeing is the end of a 10-year romance

between Roper and Corky, when Tom Hiddleston comes in,

the character Pine, and threatens their world

Maids, serving wenches, cooks, typists, masseuses,

even the lady that comes to clip the canaries' claws.

But if you lay one hand on that precious fruit,

then like the Belgians and the Congo,

The brilliant thing about Corky as a part

the perspective of the audience because he knows that

The audience know Pine is a fraud, no other character does, and Roper

is taken in so he's a villain who is relatable, which is

Was it sort of liberating and enjoyable for you?

You've played so many engaging, likeable, basically good people

from Rev onwards and this character and so forth,

Yes, it was, it was part of a de-Revving process that I was on.

A de-Revved Tom Hollander, thank you very much for talking to us.

And Travesties by Tom Stoppard is at the Apollo Theatre

Even before Tony Blair had finished his speech,

government ministers were lining up to rubbish him.

"Rise up and turn your televisions off", said

But why shouldn't the 48% have a say?

Elizabeth Truss, the Justice Secretary, is here to talk

about that and the hideous scenes from inside prisons that have been

You may have heard Peter Mandelson saying the legislation will be sent

back to the House of Commons and he hoped the process went on as long as

possible, what the Government use the Parliament act to stop that

process? Listening to Peter Mandelson it was like the referendum

never happened. He seemed to be making the same argument that was

made last year and which the British people rejected. So he needs to move

on, and the Labour Party need to move on because we are now in a new

reality so he is a blast from the past frankly in terms of what he's

saying. But if the House of Lords doesn't move on and amend the

legislation, do you use the Parliament act? He was very clear

that the House of Commons is the elected house. We passed it with an

overwhelming majority. It wasn't true, that he claimed it was pulled

through on Conservative votes alone. Many in the Labour Party voted for

Article 50 to be triggered so the fact is it was voted for

conclusively in the House of Commons. The Leader of the Lords

said on your show last week that they wouldn't be holding it up, that

they were scrutinising. The fact is it is a simple bill on do we trigger

Article 50. The British people voted for that, they were clearing the

referendum and the House of Lords now needs to get on with it which is

what I understand they will be doing despite what Peter Mandelson claims.

Will you use the Parliament act if you have to? As I said, I fully

expect the House of Lords will recognise the will of the people and

the will of the House of Commons which was overwhelming, and pass

that legislation. Crucial to this is whether article 51 cities triggered

can be revoked again. There was a court case going through the Irish

courts and possibly the European Court about this. What is your legal

advice over whether Article 50 is a one-way ticket? Can it be revoked?

The High Court and Supreme Court were very clear. This is not a legal

question, it is a political question. The British people have

voted to leave the European Union, all of those arguments were aired in

the referendum last year. We were all on the TV shows making these

points, and people like Peter Mandelson... I'm sorry, this is a

legal question as to whether legally Article 50 can be revoked or not and

I'm asking you what your advice is. As Lord Chancellor I do not make

legal decisions, they are made in the courts. The judges made the

decision, that's why we have an independent judiciary, but the point

I'm making is that Peter Mandelson and others in the Labour Party who

are trying to frustrate the will of the British people need to think how

they can contribute how to make Britain a success post Brexit.

Mandelson has lots of trade experience, why doesn't he think how

he can help get those good trade deals rather than trying to fight a

battle which he conclusively lost last year? So you have no idea

whether Article 50 can be revoked or not? I'm saying people can take

cases to court, my understanding is it is irrevocable and when we

pressed the button it will go forward, but regardless of that

situation, this is the settled will of the British people and I think

people who are trying to fight yesterday's battle need to join us

in making the success of global Britain. The prime ministers set out

a clear vision and that's what we need to get on with. During the

referendum campaign, you were on the same side as Peter Mandelson, you

were a Remain voter. If there was a second referendum would you change

your mind? I would vote for out because it is the settled will of

the British people, we are now on an irrevocable pass to leaving the

European Union. We have a clear vision of what we want to achieve

and times have changed. So the arguments you used before were

wrong, you have changed your mind. If that is so why can't the British

people change their minds too? The British people haven't changed their

minds, you need to meet people and hear what they are saying. The

people I talk to say "Get on with it". They want to get Britain to a

status of being an independent country, being free of the auspices

of the European Court, getting on with trade deals, doing what we need

to do to reform our country whether it is our education system, our

health service, the prison system, that's what we need to be getting on

with, not fighting yesterday's battle which is what some people

seem to be determined to do. When the Supreme Court was attacked by

the press for its judgment, a lot of people thought you were very slow to

respond. Lord Newberg said this week that after the hearing I think they,

politicians, by which he meant you, could have been quicker and clearer

but we all learned by experience whether politicians or judges. Have

you learned from that experience? I think it is fantastic and he went

out in public this week talking about the Supreme Court, talking

about the new positions available on the Supreme Court. I want to see our

senior judges, like David Neuberger, I want to see them talking about the

judiciary, the role of the rule of law, the role in our constitution,

that's important but I will never say to the media what they should be

printing on their headlines. I think it would be totally wrong for a

government minister to go around saying this is acceptable, this

isn't acceptable. In the modern world, whether we are politicians,

journalists, whether we work in a church, we are all subject to

scrutiny and that is right. So do you disagree with more judge who

said your words were too little too late. His edits a constitutional

obligation on the Lord Chancellor to speak and on this issue there has

been silenced. She is, in relative terms, a very inexperienced

politician with no legal experience who has been silent and answers to

Downing Street when she should have been independent. I will not

criticise and say to the free press is what they should write in their

headlines. Of course it is incredibly important that we have an

independent judiciary and the rule of law in operation in this country.

It's been in operation for hundreds of years but we are entering a new

era. You said you wouldn't criticise it. What I said was I will and will

not say to the press what they can write in their headlines because

freedom of the press is another important part of our democracy just

like independence of the judiciary. I want to see our senior Judiciary

Committee whether it is David Neuberger or Lord Chief Justice

talking about what they do. I think the court case was helpful in

explaining to the public what judges do, we need more of that. Let's move

on to prisons, you made a speech this week. There is a crisis, 119

suicide last year, a record high, and more than 25,000 assaults, 31%

increase in Britain's prisons, that a crisis. There is a difficult

situation in our prisons, I have acknowledged that, it has been

building for a number of years but I don't believe the people who say

things cannot get better or we need to release half the people in

prisons to deal with it. We are recruiting more officers and for the

first time ever, and this is what we are doing in the prisons and courts

build this week, we will be saying the purpose of prisons is of course

about punishing people but also has to be about reforming them. At the

moment in legislation as Secretary of State is all I'm responsible for

its housing prisoners. I think that is wrong. You talk about violence

but that is not the only problem. The other problem is we are not

reforming people. Within a year half of those people will go out and

commit another crime and that's a huge problem as well. That and

violence is connected because you've lost 6000 prison officers since the

Government into power, since 2010. You are recruiting another 2500 but

you won't get back up to the same numbers you had in 2010, will you?

No, because prisons have changed, and we are running them in different

ways. What this will enable us to do is for every prison officer they

will have a caseload of six offenders they are supervising. They

are encourage them, keeping them safe and encourage them to do the

English and maths they need to get off drugs and get into the

employment they need. You saw the reality presumably on that panorama

programme. I have seen the reality in our prisons, I have visited 15

and see what goes on. What you think when you see the appalling scenes,

drugs freely available, officers completely losing it. This is

exactly what I thought when I arrived in the job in July, that it

isn't good enough, that we need to deal with it, that's why we are

investing ?100 million in more prison officers, that's why we have

the prison and courts bill, so we are reforming people in our jails as

well as housing them, but this will take time. It's not something you

can sort out in weeks or months, it takes time to recruit people and

bring them on but I'm determined to deal with that. Your former

colleague Jonathan Aitken has been a prisoner and in charge of government

departments, he says this crisis is caused by the Treasury and Justice

secretaries who have made these swingeing cuts. The story is very

clear, you have cut too deeply. There has not been a rise in the

number of prisoners. It's been aged 5000 since 2010 so the number of

prisoners has stayed the same. We are putting away a record number of

sex offenders and we have fewer people going to prison. We are out

of time I'm afraid, but thank you very much anyway. Now let's look at

what's coming up after the programme.

We are in Edinburgh at ten o'clock debating cyber warfare, is Russian

activity undermining the west, and the police - should more of them

carry guns or tasers? And last of all, your sins. What does God see in

you? We will be here at ten o'clock. Join me at the same time

next Sunday when I'll be talking to Hollywood

star Hugh Jackman. But for now, we leave

you with Chuck Prophet. Last year, 2016, saw the deaths

of so many great figures This is his take on that,

"Bad Year for Rock and Roll". # The Thin White Duke

took a final bow # There's one more star

in the heavens now # The moon won't rise,

the sun won't set # There's so many things

I would rather forget # And I'm all dressed

up in my mohair suit # Watching Peter Sellers,

thinking of you # Wondering where it's

all going to end # It's been a bad year

# I want to go out but I'll probably stay home

# What are you going to do when your bird won't sing?

# And what are you going to do when your last friend's gone

# You're still at the ball and they've all moved on

# I can see in your eyes it's not too late

# We don't have to die to reach a better place

# It's been a bad year for rock 'n'roll

# I want to go out but I'll probably stay home