12/03/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


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12/03/2017

Interviews with political and cultural figures and a look at the Sunday newspapers. Andrew is joined by David Davis MP, Rebecca Long-Bailey MP and Gerry Adams.


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Good morning - we may trigger Article 50 to leave the EU

:00:00.:00:00.

But today, there's a major confrontation between MPs

:00:07.:00:11.

and the government over a simple but hugely important question.

:00:12.:00:15.

I'm joined this morning by the man at the centre of the argument,

:00:16.:00:40.

And as the aftershocks of the budget continue,

:00:41.:00:43.

I'll be talking to Jeremy Corbyn's left-hand woman Rebecca Long-Bailey

:00:44.:00:46.

But those aren't the only political rows this weekend.

:00:47.:00:54.

With the future of power sharing in Northern Ireland hanging

:00:55.:00:56.

in the balance Sinn Fein's leader Gerry Adams joins us

:00:57.:00:58.

We also have the new face of Star Wars Thandie Newton.

:00:59.:01:12.

And singing us out, fresh from her Brits

:01:13.:01:16.

On my paper review panel this morning

:01:17.:01:29.

Owen Jones of the Guardian and the Sun

:01:30.:01:31.

All that after the news, read for us this

:01:32.:01:36.

The Brexit Secretary, David Davis, has urged MPs to leave the bill

:01:37.:01:42.

for exiting the EU unchanged when it is debated in

:01:43.:01:45.

Mr Davis, writing in the Sunday Telegraph,

:01:46.:01:50.

says the Prime Minister must be able to enter negotiations

:01:51.:01:52.

If MPs pass the bill, the Prime Minister could trigger

:01:53.:01:57.

The diplomatic row between the Netherlands

:01:58.:02:03.

Riot police in Rotterdam have used water cannon to break up

:02:04.:02:08.

a demonstration by Turkish protestors, angry about a decision

:02:09.:02:11.

to ban their country's Foreign Minister from

:02:12.:02:14.

Another Turkish minister who tried to reach the protesters was expelled

:02:15.:02:19.

The Metropolitan Police have been given additional funding to extend

:02:20.:02:26.

the search for Madeleine McCann for a further six months.

:02:27.:02:30.

The Home Office has given officers ?85,000 to cover

:02:31.:02:32.

The investigation was expected to wind up next month,

:02:33.:02:38.

but the extra money will extend it beyond the tenth anniversary of her

:02:39.:02:43.

The Sister Sledge singer Joni Sledge, who had a number

:02:44.:02:49.

of disco hits with her three sisters in the 70s, has died

:02:50.:02:51.

The band was formed in 1971 with their biggest hit

:02:52.:03:07.

"We are Family" hitting the charts eight years later.

:03:08.:03:09.

Three of the sisters have continued to record music and last performed

:03:10.:03:12.

That's all from me. The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.

:03:13.:03:19.

The mail on Sunday with a savage attack on David Davis, grossly

:03:20.:03:36.

negligent and a direction of his duty, picking up on the report that

:03:37.:03:40.

we will talk about a lot in this programme later on. The Sunday

:03:41.:03:44.

Times. Our spies are apparently briefing political parties on the

:03:45.:03:47.

dangers of the Russians trying to hack them and what they can do about

:03:48.:03:52.

it. Another interesting story about Theresa May who could ask the EU to

:03:53.:03:57.

pay back ?9 billion from a European bank as part of negotiations. We are

:03:58.:04:01.

tasteful, we will not talk about the rugby very much! The Sunday

:04:02.:04:06.

Telegraph, the Cabinet War overbudget shambles. This is

:04:07.:04:10.

interesting. After the national insurance row and the allegation the

:04:11.:04:14.

Conservatives have broken their manifesto pledge, a lot of MPs have

:04:15.:04:19.

been wading into the Chancellor Philip Hammond including Norman

:04:20.:04:23.

Lamont, ferociously. Suggesting this is connected to Philip Hammond being

:04:24.:04:29.

moderate on the Brexit argument and they are trying to take it out. We

:04:30.:04:33.

did not know whether it is true or not. The Observer, MPs slam a over a

:04:34.:04:39.

lack of a planet Brexit talks collapse. We won't talk about the

:04:40.:04:40.

rugby. Let's talk about the big Brexit

:04:41.:04:49.

story. David Davis writing in the Sunday Telegraph. Yes, Brexit,

:04:50.:04:52.

Brexit, that is what we will talk about for the next 20 years! David

:04:53.:04:57.

Davis making the government's case against the amendments would have

:04:58.:04:58.

come back to the House of Lords. It would give MPs a proper say over

:04:59.:05:06.

the final deal. It would also safeguard the rights of EU citizens

:05:07.:05:11.

in this country. The problem, we had a referendum partly about Parliament

:05:12.:05:15.

true sovereignty, taking back control, giving Parliament a proper

:05:16.:05:17.

say is obviously consistent with that. The crucial issue is, if they

:05:18.:05:23.

don't have... If they give what they say at the moment, which Parliament

:05:24.:05:26.

will take or leave the deal, if there is no deal, this country will

:05:27.:05:32.

revert to, World Trade Organisation rules, food prices will hurtle up,

:05:33.:05:35.

the cost of other goods will hurtle up on the economy will be thrown

:05:36.:05:38.

into recession. Parliament are saying they should have a proper

:05:39.:05:42.

scrutiny of the final deal. This is when a lot of people find it hard to

:05:43.:05:46.

understand the government said say we will give Parliament a vote at

:05:47.:05:49.

the end of the process -- the government says. What is the

:05:50.:05:53.

problem? Parliament have basically been told that you take this deal or

:05:54.:06:01.

you throw the country into recession and heard a lot of food prices. Who

:06:02.:06:03.

would you blame? The government would say we had a deal but

:06:04.:06:06.

Parliament rejected it, it is their fault. But I think it is reckless.

:06:07.:06:09.

This is a calculation the government will make, people will look at what

:06:10.:06:11.

the government is doing and say, hang on a minute, you are seriously

:06:12.:06:16.

going to threaten the very future of the economy instead of saying,

:06:17.:06:20.

actually, Parliament can scrutinise aspects of the deal, the single

:06:21.:06:24.

market, customs union and other aspects. To which the government

:06:25.:06:28.

replies, however, that if we allow the Commons to second-guess us,

:06:29.:06:35.

Jane, we're not already in charge of our own negotiations? Precisely.

:06:36.:06:38.

Also, going into the Mail on Sunday Pages six and seven, the Mail on

:06:39.:06:43.

Sunday has been very pro-Remain from the beginning. They have really gone

:06:44.:06:47.

for this. They have. It's good that we have a divided media, actually,

:06:48.:06:49.

for debate. There are saying that the all-party

:06:50.:07:02.

Foreign Affairs Committee said there is a real possibility of Britain

:07:03.:07:05.

leaving the EU without a deal. And there is no evidence that the

:07:06.:07:07.

government was seriously preparing for it. Are they keeping their

:07:08.:07:10.

powder dry? If you want to get the best deal out of a negotiation, is

:07:11.:07:12.

it psychologically to your advantage if you go to the negotiator, this is

:07:13.:07:16.

what we want but by the way, if you don't give it to us, we have this

:07:17.:07:20.

back-up? Maybe they have got a no deal plan but they are just not

:07:21.:07:21.

telling anyone. We are leaving the European Union, I

:07:22.:07:29.

resent the fact the government are basically saying that this is an

:07:30.:07:32.

attempt to scupper Brexit. It isn't. This could work in the government's

:07:33.:07:37.

advantage, this story. It has put to one side the other huge row which is

:07:38.:07:41.

the breaking of the manifesto promise over Southern Bremen. Yes. I

:07:42.:07:46.

quickly wanted to do the Iain Duncan Smith piece on Brexit. -- over

:07:47.:07:53.

national insurance. Protecting the rights of EU citizens here it was

:07:54.:07:56.

mentioned. I absolutely agree with that. But Iain Duncan Smith is

:07:57.:07:59.

making the very valid point that there is no guarantee for the

:08:00.:08:05.

protection of UK citizens. Currently living in Europe. The question is

:08:06.:08:10.

about tactics. Is it better for us to do a big, generous gesture right

:08:11.:08:13.

at the beginning and say, whatever you say, we will protect your

:08:14.:08:17.

citizens and hope that improves the tone of the debate? Or is that

:08:18.:08:21.

handing a cost to the next side. It is the right thing to do.

:08:22.:08:27.

Absolutely. What about the other way round? It is about making a stand.

:08:28.:08:31.

The EU are put in a difficult position. This drives you towards

:08:32.:08:35.

the post-budget story. An excellent story by Tim Shipman in the Sunday

:08:36.:08:39.

Times. Number ten and 11 are at each other's throats, they are briefing

:08:40.:08:44.

against each other. This is about the broken manifesto commitment on

:08:45.:08:47.

national insurance. The Conservative Party were clear about it in the

:08:48.:08:51.

last general election, for self-employed people.

:08:52.:08:55.

The Chancellor's office are briefing Theresa May's aids on economically

:08:56.:09:03.

illiterate. They are saying he cost do politics, he is clueless about

:09:04.:09:07.

politics and haven't seen it coming. It is vicious. We know, often, the

:09:08.:09:10.

relationship between a Chancellor and a Prime Minister is rocky.

:09:11.:09:16.

Always has been. But, normally towards the end. From the very

:09:17.:09:20.

outset it interesting because we focused so much on Labour's internal

:09:21.:09:25.

turmoils. We are a very divided party. Whenever I mention that

:09:26.:09:28.

people say what about labour? But there does need to be scrutiny about

:09:29.:09:36.

their divisions. The point about self-employed people, self-employed

:09:37.:09:38.

people being asked to pay more but not being given the same rights that

:09:39.:09:43.

other people expect. Absolutely. Social Security, paid maternity

:09:44.:09:47.

leave, you name it. Vince Cable did a good piece in the Mail on Sunday.

:09:48.:09:51.

There is a picture of Philip Hammond with a rugby ball. I am not a rugby

:09:52.:09:56.

fan, has there been any matches? Nothing! Nothing! Nothing to talk

:09:57.:10:01.

about! He talks about a hospital pass, which is what you were

:10:02.:10:04.

referring to about David Cameron's pledge. Which he handed over. The

:10:05.:10:12.

pledge about the national insurance. He is saying he is likening it to

:10:13.:10:16.

the Lib Dems broking their election manifesto pledge, which of course,

:10:17.:10:21.

was not to raise tuition fees. I'm really interested in the allegation

:10:22.:10:24.

that people are going after Philip Hammond because he is not a hard

:10:25.:10:28.

Brexiteer. Seen as soft on this issue. A bit like a remain.

:10:29.:10:34.

They are briefing him, saying he has lost the, is on the single market,

:10:35.:10:41.

customs union and now on the budget. Clearly, on the issue of Brexit,

:10:42.:10:44.

let's not forget the Conservative Party has a very long history of

:10:45.:10:49.

falling out in very acrimonious ways over our relationship with the EU.

:10:50.:10:52.

Those divisions haven't just disappeared. As the negotiations

:10:53.:10:57.

continue, we will see those splits widen. Philip Hammond is campaigning

:10:58.:11:01.

for a sub Brexit. What I find astonishing is this own goal against

:11:02.:11:05.

the people that voted for them. -- soft Brexit. The self-employed

:11:06.:11:10.

people, not just the white van man but women. A lot of women, highly

:11:11.:11:15.

trained, highly educated women have started up little cottage industries

:11:16.:11:18.

because they can't combine looking after their children with going back

:11:19.:11:22.

to a full-time job. It hammers them as well. They are. The number of

:11:23.:11:27.

self-employed people is predicted to be bigger than in the public sector

:11:28.:11:30.

in the next few years. Let's crack on. We have a glossy iPad. I've been

:11:31.:11:36.

told not to throw this on the floor. A bit of a kerfuffle. Jeremy Corbyn

:11:37.:11:40.

said it would be fine for another vote to be held on Scottish

:11:41.:11:45.

independence. It has caused fury in the Scottish Labour Party. Scottish

:11:46.:11:48.

Labour Party are absolutely outraged about this. What else does he say?

:11:49.:11:52.

It's difficult to say. He could have perhaps fudged his words a bit more.

:11:53.:11:58.

If you have a situation where the Scottish Government are saying, with

:11:59.:12:04.

their own electoral mandate, they want an independence referendum and

:12:05.:12:05.

Westminster attempts to block it, that will be not seen as good. The

:12:06.:12:10.

Observer, this piece about the Scotland moving towards Brexit. The

:12:11.:12:13.

dynamics have changed in the aftermath of a referendum, that is

:12:14.:12:19.

the SNP's case. The point is, this article pointed out, the beginning

:12:20.:12:22.

of the last referendum campaign, support for the yes vote was 28% and

:12:23.:12:28.

by the end it was 45%. And now it is 50% according to the national

:12:29.:12:32.

newspaper which is pro-independence. Remember the world of the EU in the

:12:33.:12:37.

last Scottish referendum? Guarantee EU membership by staying. This

:12:38.:12:40.

government, we already had David Cameron remonstrated after making a

:12:41.:12:46.

calamitous decision on his own part. He lost the EU referendum. This

:12:47.:12:51.

government could oversee the end of the union. The Conservative and

:12:52.:12:54.

Unionist party. They keep kicking it into the long grass. Nicola Sturgeon

:12:55.:12:58.

keeps getting it right back again. Really interesting. Read headline at

:12:59.:13:03.

the top of this page, Labour in the wilderness. All the latest stories.

:13:04.:13:09.

Champagne Shami. Shami Chakrabarti as Diane Abbott meeting again. I am

:13:10.:13:15.

all in favour of people drinking champagne. Can I just point out,

:13:16.:13:19.

this is a very furtive photograph. You can tell it's been done like

:13:20.:13:24.

this by someone. They have no idea. Their champagne glasses are actually

:13:25.:13:28.

full. I wondering, maybe someone in the Conservative Party said, we

:13:29.:13:32.

would like to send over does my glasses of champagne for the ladies.

:13:33.:13:36.

Meanwhile, we will take a photo. It's quite naughty, photographing

:13:37.:13:40.

people in private restaurants. You can tell from the shading at the

:13:41.:13:45.

side. It's ridiculous. They are just going for a new! John Prescott

:13:46.:13:49.

meanwhile speaking out, forthrightly. I've rarely seen quite

:13:50.:13:54.

so many Asterix in a front headline. He was a great Jeremy Corbyn support

:13:55.:13:57.

for a while. And then there is the Scottish story at the end. He is

:13:58.:14:00.

like all of them. When they are not doing it any more, they get very

:14:01.:14:05.

vocal. You mentioned the Huffington Post and your iPad. You have been a

:14:06.:14:12.

big figure... Somebody's iPad. On social media use that I'm pulling

:14:13.:14:17.

back, it's become too nasty and joining of energy. I don't want to

:14:18.:14:21.

get out a violin, I'm absolutely fine but it's about priorities. The

:14:22.:14:25.

problem is, most people on the internet are absolutely fine. There

:14:26.:14:28.

is a very angry minority and you just end up thinking to yourself,

:14:29.:14:32.

rather than arguing with strangers who question your motives, send all

:14:33.:14:38.

sorts of bizarre abuse, maybe go out for a walk. Don't feed the monster.

:14:39.:14:43.

I think the problem is, with political debate generally in this

:14:44.:14:47.

country, it's generated. It has become a shouting match. Very

:14:48.:14:51.

polarising elections. -- it has degenerated.

:14:52.:14:57.

People communicate here in real life in a way that aren't on the

:14:58.:15:04.

Internet. Just to wrap this up, how do you deal with social media? Do

:15:05.:15:10.

you get abuse? I am a bit of a Luddite, I am on there because I

:15:11.:15:14.

feel I should be but people will die of boredom if they are following me

:15:15.:15:19.

because I just don't. I like to engage normally. Nobody has died

:15:20.:15:22.

with boredom during the review of these newspapers. Thank you for

:15:23.:15:24.

joining us. After the Northern Irish elections,

:15:25.:15:27.

Sinn Fein is riding high. For power sharing to work,

:15:28.:15:29.

they have to do a deal with the Democratic Unionists,

:15:30.:15:32.

but so far they're insisting that the DUP's leader Arlene Foster

:15:33.:15:34.

can't come back as First Minister. The current system of governance

:15:35.:15:37.

there is hanging by a thread. Sinn Fein's President Gerry Adams

:15:38.:15:39.

joins me from Belfast. Welcome, Mr Adams. Can I ask first

:15:40.:15:48.

of all, is the removal of Arlene Foster as First Minister next time

:15:49.:15:52.

round absolute red line for you? We're not saying she can't come

:15:53.:15:57.

back, you may know, Andrew, that the institutions collapsed on the back

:15:58.:16:04.

of a scandal on a renewable energy scheme in which it is alleged ?500

:16:05.:16:11.

million Sterling has been abused or wasted and there are allegations it

:16:12.:16:14.

was caused by corruption or fraud. We're not making the allegations,

:16:15.:16:19.

they come from within the DUP about the DUP, so we are saying that needs

:16:20.:16:23.

clearing up. Arlene Foster, in fairness, says she is not guilty and

:16:24.:16:27.

wants to be vindicated. So what we have said is that there needs to be

:16:28.:16:32.

an inquiry into all of this and pending the outcome of that inquiry,

:16:33.:16:38.

without prejudice to that outcome, that Arlene Foster should not be in

:16:39.:16:40.

the position of Deputy First Minister. But if she's cleared she

:16:41.:16:46.

could come back? Of course and we are dealing with Arlene Foster and

:16:47.:16:49.

Michelle O'Neill, and I have met with Arlene myself in the past week.

:16:50.:16:57.

The tipping point in the current crisis came because of this scandal

:16:58.:17:05.

but there was also difficulties with agreements which have been made not

:17:06.:17:10.

being honoured and Martin McGuinness for over ten years in that office

:17:11.:17:14.

has demonstrated how much Republicans want those institutions

:17:15.:17:17.

to work so we want him back in place. The Government in London on

:17:18.:17:22.

the back of Brexit and on the back of its own policy wants to dismantle

:17:23.:17:29.

lots of the human rights aspects of the Good Friday Agreement. Brexit

:17:30.:17:34.

will drive this part of Ireland out of the European Union, the people

:17:35.:17:38.

here voted to remain, the party is returned in the last election the

:17:39.:17:42.

vast majority of those are also forth Remain and Sinn Fein have been

:17:43.:17:46.

arguing for a special designated status for the North within the

:17:47.:17:50.

European Union to stop the return of a hard economic border. You have

:17:51.:17:58.

only got two weeks to have the negotiations with the DUP and

:17:59.:18:01.

British government and so forth. What happens if you haven't got an

:18:02.:18:04.

agreement after two weeks? Do you have another election? Well, we are

:18:05.:18:10.

being threatened with another election and I'm saying half

:18:11.:18:15.

jokingly that that is a sign of how much progress has been made, that we

:18:16.:18:20.

are being threatened by a British government with an election, we used

:18:21.:18:24.

to be threatened with internment. You are against it, are you? No, if

:18:25.:18:29.

there is another election we will contest that election. Of course in

:18:30.:18:37.

this election, nobody wanted it, but the position was totally untenable.

:18:38.:18:44.

What we need, this is what our focus is, and implementation process we

:18:45.:18:47.

are involved in, those agreements, the different elements of a deal,

:18:48.:18:53.

the human rights elements of it, the bill of rights, these different

:18:54.:18:57.

commitments which have been made but not kept need to be delivered on and

:18:58.:19:02.

if that happens then the institutions will go back in place

:19:03.:19:06.

and we will continue to do our best to work for the people. Mr Adams,

:19:07.:19:11.

you mentioned Brexit just now, we have a committee of MPs in the UK

:19:12.:19:16.

here saying that if Britain leaves without a deal the border goes

:19:17.:19:20.

straight back up between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

:19:21.:19:24.

Do you think this is the moment when Ireland starts to look again at

:19:25.:19:28.

uniting? Yes, and Sinn Fein have always been looking for Ireland to

:19:29.:19:31.

be united but I consider the partition of this island to be

:19:32.:19:38.

totally illegitimate and immoral. In the Good Friday Agreement we agreed,

:19:39.:19:41.

and the Government in London obliged, when the majority of people

:19:42.:19:45.

here want to see an end to partition and want to see Irish unity than the

:19:46.:19:50.

government is obliged to legislate for that. We have argued a long time

:19:51.:19:54.

that that is what should happen. At the moment most people in Northern

:19:55.:19:58.

Ireland want to stay inside the UK, don't they? Yes and that is why we

:19:59.:20:02.

have a job of work to do to persuade them. Nobody should be threatened by

:20:03.:20:06.

this. Even without Brexit we have been badly served by the divisions

:20:07.:20:11.

on our small island with Brexit, as has been my firm conviction from the

:20:12.:20:15.

referendum result. With Brexit we are going to see a hard economic

:20:16.:20:18.

border, the frontier between the European state and British state is

:20:19.:20:24.

going to be on the end of Ireland and that is why we have argued for a

:20:25.:20:28.

special designated status for the north that doesn't impinge upon the

:20:29.:20:31.

constitutional position but does guarantee we will not have the type

:20:32.:20:35.

of misery that's going to be inflicted on our farming, on our

:20:36.:20:39.

dairy farmers, on our agri- food industry and on our enterprises. We

:20:40.:20:43.

will talk about that later with David Davis on the programme but for

:20:44.:20:46.

now, Gerry Adams, thank you for joining us.

:20:47.:20:49.

No complaints, and I don't often say that.

:20:50.:20:54.

Louise Lear is in the weather studio.

:20:55.:20:59.

You might be complaining this morning, a rather drab start, cloud,

:21:00.:21:09.

mist and rain, spinning up from the south from this weather front

:21:10.:21:13.

through the night and another hot on its heels but look at that window of

:21:14.:21:18.

sunshine I've found at the end of the tunnel in Flintshire, you are

:21:19.:21:22.

very lucky indeed and it will probably not last because we have

:21:23.:21:25.

two weather fronts continuing to dawdle further eastwards through the

:21:26.:21:29.

day. One will bring persistent rain across south-east England and

:21:30.:21:33.

eastern England. Next is weakening and showery outbreaks are likely.

:21:34.:21:37.

The difference between the two, there should be some between them,

:21:38.:21:41.

and in north-west Scotland and Northern Ireland are not as warm as

:21:42.:21:47.

today but not too bad. 10-14d is the high. Through the night we will lose

:21:48.:21:52.

the cloud and rain but with clearer skies temperatures fall away. We

:21:53.:21:56.

have seen a couple of really mild nights so this could be a shock to

:21:57.:22:01.

the system first thing on Monday morning, particularly in rural spots

:22:02.:22:04.

where temperatures are low enough for a touch of light frost. But

:22:05.:22:09.

Monday will be a better day, you will be happy with this, Andrew.

:22:10.:22:13.

More sunshine, dried for most of us and with sunshine this time of year

:22:14.:22:17.

temperatures start to respond, springlike feel with highs of 16

:22:18.:22:21.

degrees. There you go. Have a good Sunday.

:22:22.:22:25.

As we were discussing a little earlier, the cross party

:22:26.:22:27.

Foreign Affairs committee of MPs warns this morning that

:22:28.:22:30.

for the government to fail to plan for there being no deal at the end

:22:31.:22:33.

of the European negotiations would be, and I quote,

:22:34.:22:35.

The appropriately named committee chairman, Crispin Blunt, is here.

:22:36.:22:40.

Thank you for joining us. To be blunt about it, I will stop saying

:22:41.:22:47.

that! What is the essence of your problem? There is a possibility of

:22:48.:22:51.

no deal, you can try and put probabilities on it, our previous

:22:52.:22:55.

ambassador to the EU said it was more than 30% and the committee

:22:56.:22:58.

itself said it was probably more likely than not in the report we did

:22:59.:23:02.

in April before the referendum trying to look at Britain's role in

:23:03.:23:05.

the world would be after the referendum. This is a cross-party

:23:06.:23:09.

committee that has reported unanimously, it reflects the country

:23:10.:23:13.

in terms of Brexit and it is a narrow majority for Brexit on the

:23:14.:23:18.

committee. If there is going to be no deal that is going to have

:23:19.:23:21.

serious implications for businesses and individuals and the government

:23:22.:23:26.

needs to make sure we have planned for it. Let's talk about what the

:23:27.:23:30.

implications of no deal would be as far as your committee is concerned.

:23:31.:23:34.

British business first of all as what has been called a cliff edge,

:23:35.:23:39.

is that right? Yes and you have tariff and nontariff implications

:23:40.:23:44.

for trying to do trade with the European Union. Obviously these

:23:45.:23:48.

things are very complex. If people want to get into the detail, we have

:23:49.:23:52.

produced it in the report and we have put two appendices in the

:23:53.:23:57.

report, we commission advice from the bar council and also

:23:58.:24:00.

commissioned advice from leading professors in European law at

:24:01.:24:03.

Cambridge University. If people want to get into the detail and see the

:24:04.:24:08.

applications they are there. What about the status of EU nationals in

:24:09.:24:12.

this country and our people over there, as it were? That is one of

:24:13.:24:15.

the uncertainties that has been highlighted elsewhere, both on the

:24:16.:24:22.

floor of the House of Lords and in the House of Commons. There is

:24:23.:24:25.

detail about exactly how citizens would be affected depending on how

:24:26.:24:29.

long they have been in the UK, if they are European Union citizens.

:24:30.:24:33.

But, of course, there is the point about UK citizens in the EU. The

:24:34.:24:41.

Norwich clinic Northern Irish border as well. There was a cabinet meeting

:24:42.:24:47.

recently whether discussed little else if there wasn't a deal. The

:24:48.:24:54.

Mail on Sunday with their headline about dereliction of duty said that

:24:55.:24:58.

as Wahab would happen if they did not plan properly for this. -- what

:24:59.:25:08.

would happen. This planning appears to be starting, and of course the

:25:09.:25:12.

applications of no deal will inform the negotiating position completely.

:25:13.:25:16.

One would anticipate this happening internally and it now seems it is

:25:17.:25:19.

happening, and if our report and the headlines today put a bit of behind

:25:20.:25:26.

the planning that is a good thing. Do you think people should see what

:25:27.:25:31.

the plans are? Yes and that's one of the reasons we have got into this

:25:32.:25:34.

space, as parliamentarians we think we have a responsibility to help

:25:35.:25:38.

businesses and individuals prepare for the consequences of a probable

:25:39.:25:42.

outcome, or a possible outcome, which is that there is no deal at

:25:43.:25:46.

the end of two years. What is the effect of that on the negotiating

:25:47.:25:49.

position of the government? My view is it strengthens because you could

:25:50.:25:55.

cope with no deal and if you look at the implications on both sides, in

:25:56.:26:00.

absolute terms it's my view that the impact on the 27 is greater in a

:26:01.:26:04.

negative sense in absolute terms than it is on the UK because that is

:26:05.:26:08.

where the balance of trade sets and where the money flows sit at the

:26:09.:26:11.

minute and it is where most people are. But, of course, the expression

:26:12.:26:18.

we have used, it is mutually assured damage on both sides. Strong

:26:19.:26:21.

language. Do you think MPs should have a vote anywhere if there isn't

:26:22.:26:25.

a deal? I understand we will get about. Even if there isn't a deal?

:26:26.:26:30.

If there isn't a deal there is no deal so in that sense there is

:26:31.:26:34.

nothing to vote on. It sounds to me as if you disagree with the Prime

:26:35.:26:37.

Minister when she said no deal is better than a bad deal. No, in the

:26:38.:26:42.

report we made clear there are circumstances where you can

:26:43.:26:44.

logically envisage that no deal would be better than a bad deal, for

:26:45.:26:49.

example if you get a huge upfront bill to pay for the divorce and then

:26:50.:26:54.

there is no route to a future free trade agreement that would look like

:26:55.:26:57.

a pretty bad deal for the UK and would be worse than no deal, because

:26:58.:27:02.

the implication of there being no route to a free-trade deal is you

:27:03.:27:06.

are dealing with us anyway, if there is no agreement at the end of the

:27:07.:27:10.

negotiation. Much to pick up with David Davis later but for now, thank

:27:11.:27:11.

you very much indeed. Thandie Newton has portrayed

:27:12.:27:13.

many strong women, from Mission Impossible

:27:14.:27:19.

to Crash to Westworld. She's about to go interstellar

:27:20.:27:22.

in the new Star Wars film, but first up is Line

:27:23.:27:26.

of Duty on BBC One. Newton plays a senior cop who comes

:27:27.:27:29.

under suspicion of framing I've seen a preview and it really

:27:30.:27:31.

is another fine piece I met up with Thandie Newton

:27:32.:27:35.

recently to talk crooked coppers, Everything we've put

:27:36.:27:39.

out to the public has difficult upbringings

:27:40.:27:42.

at my insistence. Prostitution is not a factor

:27:43.:27:44.

in these cases, the victims No-one at this station calls

:27:45.:27:47.

those girls prostitutes. Anna Reznikova works

:27:48.:27:50.

two jobs, all hours. Yes, ma'am, still, my gaffer's

:27:51.:27:57.

asked me to rule out any connection. She's a senior

:27:58.:28:03.

investigating officer. Investigating a chain of crimes that

:28:04.:28:08.

seem to be connected. And it's a case that's been

:28:09.:28:15.

going on for a year and she needs to crack her case for her integrity

:28:16.:28:18.

as a police ... To please her peers and,

:28:19.:28:21.

you know, her boss. So, there's a lot of

:28:22.:28:25.

pressure on this person. It's a difficult character

:28:26.:28:27.

to play in this sense, that she is veiled

:28:28.:28:35.

a little bit of the time. You're not quite sure

:28:36.:28:38.

which side she's on... ..You have to play

:28:39.:28:40.

the character in a mask... But that's what people in this

:28:41.:28:43.

position, in this career, too. But that's what people in this

:28:44.:28:53.

position, in this career do. I say, single-handedly,

:28:54.:28:55.

the person that influenced my performance is Jed Mercurio

:28:56.:28:57.

because he is a mastermind, He'll only give the bare facts

:28:58.:28:59.

but so much is happening. He allows the audience

:29:00.:29:04.

to participate by If you look at a similar procedural

:29:05.:29:05.

drama on television in America, there's a lot of emotion,

:29:06.:29:10.

there's a lot of I'm not corrupt, sir,

:29:11.:29:12.

nor are my team. Evidence met the threshold test,

:29:13.:29:18.

met and surpassed it. I stuck with you on this because

:29:19.:29:24.

you're better than your record. All those years out

:29:25.:29:28.

being a full-time mum. Some would worry that

:29:29.:29:33.

had cost you your edge. But I have the advantage of knowing,

:29:34.:29:36.

first-hand, how good you are. One of the really interesting things

:29:37.:29:38.

about this is the background There's a moment when your character

:29:39.:29:45.

is told she is being given a promotion, despite the fact she's

:29:46.:29:51.

taken off time to have children And also the surrounding pressure

:29:52.:29:54.

from the world of social media. Twitter appears as a kind

:29:55.:29:59.

of problem for the police. Did you have a lot of sympathy

:30:00.:30:03.

for the way, particularly, female police officers now

:30:04.:30:05.

have to operate? Well, I had sympathy but I also felt

:30:06.:30:07.

that it was reflecting It's just, you have to make

:30:08.:30:10.

a decision about, do you let this crush you or do you force

:30:11.:30:17.

yourself through it? I think one of the reasons why women

:30:18.:30:20.

in positions of authority are as powerful and have,

:30:21.:30:23.

you know, unsurpassed excellence is because they've had

:30:24.:30:27.

to push through that, The ceiling?

:30:28.:30:33.

They've had to push through that and shatter that glass ceiling.

:30:34.:30:37.

And, of course, we have Cressida Dick now going to become

:30:38.:30:40.

Oh, my goodness, I know! Absolutely...

:30:41.:30:42.

I saw that and I thought, my God, this is like art reflecting life.

:30:43.:30:47.

But I think that's what gives us the edge.

:30:48.:30:50.

Let's talk about Westworld because it was criticised

:30:51.:30:52.

right at the beginning for the objectification of women.

:30:53.:30:54.

For rape, for violence against women.

:30:55.:30:56.

Your character starts off as a cyborg bordello madam,

:30:57.:30:58.

That's exactly what the show runners wanted.

:30:59.:31:03.

They wanted that sense of outrage, "it's disgusting".

:31:04.:31:06.

And we needed to push it to the absolute brink of believability.

:31:07.:31:09.

Because we then needed to subvert it.

:31:10.:31:11.

Not cynical, no, I don't think it was cynical because I think

:31:12.:31:21.

that is what the world is actually like.

:31:22.:31:23.

People are just addicted to everything.

:31:24.:31:24.

Addicted to shoes, addicted to sex, addicted to alcohol, PlayStation.

:31:25.:31:27.

We're addicted to all these things because we don't

:31:28.:31:29.

We don't want to feel the pain of being a human being.

:31:30.:31:35.

I savoured every word, particularly one speech about,

:31:36.:31:40.

"at first I thought you were gods, but then I realised you're

:31:41.:31:44.

I've died a thousand times, I'm great at it, how many

:31:45.:31:51.

You're going to be the face of the new Star Wars.

:31:52.:31:57.

You're going to go global and mega in a completely new way.

:31:58.:32:00.

Do you think, do you reflect, now, that with Star Wars,

:32:01.:32:03.

your life is going to become completely different?

:32:04.:32:05.

It's become completely different with Westworld.

:32:06.:32:07.

I can't imagine it getting more difficult than that, really.

:32:08.:32:09.

And the other thing is that, you know, I've been

:32:10.:32:12.

We've got three kids, there's no drama there.

:32:13.:32:17.

2012 was massive. Crash was enormous.

:32:18.:32:24.

All these... Mission Impossible!

:32:25.:32:26.

Yes, it blows up for a minute and then it just calms down.

:32:27.:32:29.

Thandie Newton, lovely talking to you, thank you so much.

:32:30.:32:34.

It's lovely talking to you, Andrew, all the best.

:32:35.:32:37.

Rebecca Long-Bailey is being tipped by the Corbyn camp

:32:38.:32:41.

as the next generation of Labour's socialist leadership.

:32:42.:32:42.

As Shadow Business Secretary she's at the heart of

:32:43.:32:45.

Welcome. Can I ask, first of all come about this row in Scotland? Do

:32:46.:33:01.

you think it would be fine to have a certain Scottish referendum? Jeremy

:33:02.:33:04.

Corbyn made it clear that if Scottish Parliament and people

:33:05.:33:08.

wanted a second referendum it would -- we would advise Westminster not

:33:09.:33:11.

to block that because it is the democratic will of the people. But

:33:12.:33:15.

we would vigorously oppose the exit of Scotland from Britain. If it was

:33:16.:33:21.

up to you, you wouldn't as a party want a second Scottish referendum?

:33:22.:33:24.

Not in principle but we wouldn't go against the will of the people. It

:33:25.:33:27.

is a democratic decision they would make and we would uphold that. This

:33:28.:33:31.

has absolutely infuriated your colleagues in the Scottish Labour

:33:32.:33:35.

Party. Ian Murray, you're only MP in Scotland says, I am often asked why

:33:36.:33:39.

I resigned from the Scottish Shadow Cabinet. Ladies and on demand I give

:33:40.:33:44.

you Jeremy Corbyn, he is destroying the party that so many people need.

:33:45.:33:49.

I don't think there's any ambiguity. The leader of Scottish Labour said

:33:50.:33:52.

July in last year that it would be wrong for Westminster to block a

:33:53.:33:55.

decision if it was done in a democratic way and the Scottish

:33:56.:33:58.

Parliament had put it forward. Let's turn to the big row at the moment,

:33:59.:34:04.

national insurance contributions. The Conservative Party apparently

:34:05.:34:08.

breaking a manifesto pledge. You were in charge of the opposition at

:34:09.:34:11.

the time they put the legislation through and it seems you didn't spot

:34:12.:34:15.

they had withdrawn the self-employed... To say the

:34:16.:34:18.

Chancellor has been economical with the truth is an understatement! The

:34:19.:34:22.

national insurance ceiling rates bill, that is class one insurance

:34:23.:34:27.

contributions only. There was no inference in that bill at all that

:34:28.:34:30.

there was going to be any changes. We put that to David Cork and we

:34:31.:34:35.

asked him if there were any further proposals to change national

:34:36.:34:37.

insurance contributions and he stated he had no further proposals

:34:38.:34:41.

to make any changes at this time. The government was perfectly clear.

:34:42.:34:45.

That was one is all part of our manifesto commitment. You didn't say

:34:46.:34:48.

at the time the government has answered its manifesto obligations

:34:49.:34:51.

and you didn't put any amendments. We said it dealt with one small part

:34:52.:34:57.

of their manifesto obligations. We were perfectly clear on that point.

:34:58.:35:03.

Now are, presumably these are self-employed entrepreneurial

:35:04.:35:06.

people, do you want to reverse this change or not? We need to look at

:35:07.:35:09.

the way self-employed people are treated as a whole. The reason they

:35:10.:35:15.

have lower national insurance... Let me answer. The reasons they have

:35:16.:35:18.

lower national insurance contributions is because they don't

:35:19.:35:21.

have access to maternity pay, holiday pay and other benefits

:35:22.:35:24.

employed people enjoy. The government needs to look at the

:35:25.:35:29.

whole package and put forward a set of fundamental reforms to support

:35:30.:35:33.

self-employed people. And deal with the issue of bogus self-employment

:35:34.:35:36.

where people are being exploited. It sounds like you wouldn't reverse

:35:37.:35:40.

what the government has just done? As I said, if the government had put

:35:41.:35:43.

forward a package when it announced this proposal and have provided the

:35:44.:35:46.

support that we have been asking for we might have supported them but

:35:47.:35:51.

they haven't. They completely attacked low and middle income

:35:52.:35:53.

earners, they breached their manifesto pledge and as a Federation

:35:54.:35:57.

of Small Businesses state, this is completely undermining their

:35:58.:35:59.

supposed abstract it to support UK businesses. It doesn't do that. --

:36:00.:36:04.

supposed strategy to support. I talked to John McDonnell last week

:36:05.:36:07.

about your own spending pledges and we doubted them up. Here they are.

:36:08.:36:12.

Is that, broadly speaking, accurate and right? Broadly but these are

:36:13.:36:26.

based on forecasts. The position would change, should we get into

:36:27.:36:32.

government in 2020. The cost is based on Redbook numbers, official

:36:33.:36:36.

numbers or Labour's official costing. ?60 billion of extra

:36:37.:36:40.

spending. He also said your fiscal credibility rule means you won't

:36:41.:36:45.

borrow to do any of this. Where does the money come from? We certainly

:36:46.:36:48.

wouldn't have made the decision of this government has, for example

:36:49.:36:52.

slashing taxes for the most wealthy and society, in territories tax,

:36:53.:36:56.

capital gains tax on the bank levy, corporations tax. -- inheritance

:36:57.:37:01.

tax. Corporation tax, how much do you raise from reversing

:37:02.:37:03.

corporations tax? We asked the House of Commons to do some research in

:37:04.:37:07.

terms of the money that we would gain back if we reversed all of

:37:08.:37:11.

those tax breaks. I want to go through them one by one. 70 billion

:37:12.:37:16.

towns in total by 2020. I don't think it is. -- 70 billion towns. We

:37:17.:37:22.

have done the research. On the details. The House of Commons

:37:23.:37:24.

carried out independent research on this very point based on Adobe

:37:25.:37:29.

forecasts. -- ?70 billion. How much would you get from reversing the

:37:30.:37:34.

corporation tax changes? The package as a whole is 70 billion, all based

:37:35.:37:39.

on forecasts. In terms of other potential changes that we've asked,

:37:40.:37:42.

we preferred in the budget do business rates. We asked the

:37:43.:37:46.

government to make changes to the business rates scheme to support

:37:47.:37:53.

businesses. Let the answer to the question is ?17.7 billion. You are

:37:54.:37:55.

still about 40 odd billion away from your target. 70 billion in total

:37:56.:38:03.

referring to those four tax breaks, by 2020. I don't think you get 70

:38:04.:38:06.

billion. We will go through those four tax breaks in specific terms.

:38:07.:38:12.

17.7 billion from corporation tax, how much do you get from raising the

:38:13.:38:16.

inheritance tax threshold? 70 billion by 2000 and 20. That is a

:38:17.:38:23.

meaningless overall figure. -- by 2020. The a total of total of all of

:38:24.:38:29.

those tax cuts is 70 billion by 20 20. It's not. It is independent

:38:30.:38:33.

research by the House of Commons library. Corporation tax cuts

:38:34.:38:36.

according to the budget gets you 17 billion. Rating inheritance tax 2.8

:38:37.:38:42.

billion, capital gains tax just under 3 billion, according to the

:38:43.:38:46.

budget and proceeds from the bank levy are forecast to only be 4

:38:47.:38:50.

billion. These are all official figures. It is ?30 billion, not 60.

:38:51.:38:59.

You are still ?30 billion short. If you are talking about credibility,

:39:00.:39:01.

if fiscal credibility really matters to you, where does that money come

:39:02.:39:07.

from? Inheritance tax, corporation tax, cuts to the bank levy. ?70

:39:08.:39:14.

billion by 2020. I don't want to hammer this but we have carried out

:39:15.:39:18.

independent research in the House of Commons library that totals it took

:39:19.:39:22.

70 billion. You can give everybody watching a full breakdown of how you

:39:23.:39:26.

get to ?70 billion in detail? We can indeed. Can you do that later on

:39:27.:39:31.

today as a party? I will speak to John McDonnell if he is available!

:39:32.:39:35.

One of the ways you could deal with this big problem is that you could

:39:36.:39:38.

do what he has talked about in the past, a wealth tax on the top 10% of

:39:39.:39:43.

people in this country. Is that a prospect in the Labour Party could

:39:44.:39:47.

go for? We need to look at the way the economy works as a whole and

:39:48.:39:49.

taxation is one point the government needs to look at in terms of

:39:50.:39:53.

generating tax receipts. But the economic model in total. It needs to

:39:54.:39:56.

invest in business and ensure that they have the tools to succeed in a

:39:57.:39:59.

fertile business environment so that they can boost wages for their

:40:00.:40:04.

employees and deliver a high paid, high skilled environment where tax

:40:05.:40:07.

receipts are increased. They are certainly not doing that. We didn't

:40:08.:40:13.

see that from this week 's budget. The government did not go far on the

:40:14.:40:15.

business rates issue like we would like. They hammered the lower income

:40:16.:40:18.

middle earners on national insurance. What if the proper rate

:40:19.:40:22.

of corporation tax under Labour? We would reverse the cuts the

:40:23.:40:25.

government has made on corporation tax but we can't look at corporation

:40:26.:40:29.

tax as a stand-alone issue. Philip Hammond stated if we don't get a

:40:30.:40:32.

deal from Brexit we would slash corporation tax but that alone is

:40:33.:40:35.

not enough to make us competitive, we need investment in skills,

:40:36.:40:40.

investment in infrastructure, research and development. We saw

:40:41.:40:45.

very little of that in this week 's budget. The government is not

:40:46.:40:48.

setting us up for the future, no mention of industrial strategy in

:40:49.:40:50.

this weeks budget strategy at all. One final question on the future,

:40:51.:40:53.

the Brexit bill comes back to the House of Lords within a couple of

:40:54.:40:58.

days. Are the Labour MP is going to roll over or will they carry on

:40:59.:41:01.

their opposition to the Brexit billion tonnes of the amendments

:41:02.:41:04.

they will support? The two key amendments that have been put

:41:05.:41:07.

forward from the House of Lords is protection of the EU citizens in the

:41:08.:41:10.

UK and we fully support that. Would Labour MPs stick with that in the

:41:11.:41:16.

House of Lords no matter what happens in the Commons? It is

:41:17.:41:19.

important and it is one of our red lines. We need to protect EU

:41:20.:41:22.

citizens in this country. Not just morally but economically. Businesses

:41:23.:41:24.

up and down the country have stated they can't see their EU citizens

:41:25.:41:27.

leaving, it will have a damaging effect on the economy. And an issue

:41:28.:41:33.

of a meaningful vote, we want to discuss the package the government

:41:34.:41:36.

finally seeks to obtain from Europe. And urged Labour MPs to stick with

:41:37.:41:40.

with they've done and demanding meaningful vote when it comes to the

:41:41.:41:45.

House of Lords? -- stick with a meaningful vote. We do need it.

:41:46.:41:47.

Thank you for talking to us. Later this morning,

:41:48.:41:48.

Andrew Neil will be talking about the Brexit bill with

:41:49.:41:51.

Ukip's Nigel Farage, the Tory rebel Anna Soubry, and he'll be talking

:41:52.:41:54.

to the Trump critic and former MP That's the Sunday Politics

:41:55.:41:57.

at 11am, here on BBC One. Well, as we've been hearing,

:41:58.:42:00.

an important Commons committee is attacking

:42:01.:42:02.

the Brexit Secretary David Davis. To go into the EU talks

:42:03.:42:05.

without a proper plan for no deal would be a "dereliction of duty

:42:06.:42:10.

and grossly negligent". Grossly negligent? Good morning,

:42:11.:42:20.

this is like Brexit Central this morning. It is. The simple truth is,

:42:21.:42:25.

we have been planning for the contingency, the various outcomes,

:42:26.:42:30.

the possible outcomes of the negotiation. Including a proper plan

:42:31.:42:34.

for no deal? Indeed. About two or three weeks ago, I can't remember,

:42:35.:42:37.

it was briefed out that I had spent most of the Cabinet meeting talking

:42:38.:42:41.

to the cabinet about the importance of making sure the contingency plans

:42:42.:42:45.

were on line as well as the other plans. Do you have part of your

:42:46.:42:49.

team, as it were, round the back of the building thinking if it doesn't

:42:50.:42:53.

work, this is what will happen? Not just my team but the whole of

:42:54.:42:57.

Whitehall. It every single department. Understand, it's the

:42:58.:43:00.

contingency plan. The aim is to get a good outcome and we are confident,

:43:01.:43:05.

I'm confident. One of the reasons we don't talk about contingency plans

:43:06.:43:08.

is because we don't want people to think this is what we are trying to

:43:09.:43:11.

do. That is there because we need to have it there. Firstly, as Crispin

:43:12.:43:17.

intimated earlier, the Chairman of the select committee, if it happens

:43:18.:43:22.

we need to be ready to make sure that we are in a good position to

:43:23.:43:27.

deal with that. If we get the main outcome, it is quite helpful in the

:43:28.:43:30.

negotiation and in the planning for that. For them to know that we are

:43:31.:43:34.

planning? For us to know and be confident that we don't face, as you

:43:35.:43:38.

say, a cliff edge. In terms of the consequences of not getting a deal,

:43:39.:43:42.

the committee was very strong in its language and said "It is clear from

:43:43.:43:45.

our evidence that a complete breakdown in negotiations represent

:43:46.:43:49.

a very destructive outcome leading to mutually assured damage for the

:43:50.:43:55.

EU and the UK". Are they right? I don't think that is remotely likely,

:43:56.:44:00.

to be frank with you. Since the referendum, the whole government,

:44:01.:44:07.

the Foreign Office, my department, the Prime Minister's department,

:44:08.:44:09.

have been engaged with every country in Europe and institutions. The

:44:10.:44:14.

feedback we get... It will be tough, let's make no bones. There will be

:44:15.:44:18.

tough points in this negotiation but it is in absolutely everybody's

:44:19.:44:22.

interest that we get a good outcome. Hours and theirs. The reverse of

:44:23.:44:27.

what the committee was saying. It is in Spain's interest, Estonia's,

:44:28.:44:31.

France's Italy's interest. Everybody had an interest in a good outcome.

:44:32.:44:35.

What is your message to MPs tomorrow? Who better to understand,

:44:36.:44:42.

bluntly, than the importance of Parliamentary catalytic? I spent a

:44:43.:44:47.

decade of my life doing nothing but. I have said, since the beginning of

:44:48.:44:51.

this exercise, it's inconceivable to me that there wouldn't be a vote on

:44:52.:44:57.

the outcome. Wait a minute. But the simple truth, what I don't want to

:44:58.:45:01.

do, is take a simple bill, which is designed to do nothing more than put

:45:02.:45:06.

the result of the referendum into law. As the Supreme Court told us to

:45:07.:45:10.

do. We waited for the Supreme Court to give us the detailed guidance on

:45:11.:45:16.

that. We will do that. Please don't tie the pro-Minister's hands in the

:45:17.:45:20.

process of doing that for things which we expect to obtain any way --

:45:21.:45:23.

Prime Minister's hands. Let me ask you about that vote. If you don't

:45:24.:45:28.

get a deal, will be comments have a meaningful vote about what happens

:45:29.:45:29.

next? -- will the Commons. We have the vote on Article 50 going

:45:30.:45:41.

through and then we have the Great Repeal Bill, all of the aspects of

:45:42.:45:46.

European law coming into UK law, a huge bill, then we have primary

:45:47.:45:49.

legislation and secondary legislation and then we have a vote

:45:50.:45:55.

at the end. What MPs say to me is what we really want is a meaningful

:45:56.:45:59.

vote which means that we have the ability to send David Davis and

:46:00.:46:04.

Theresa May back to the negotiating table if we don't like the outcome.

:46:05.:46:09.

Firstly, there is limited time on this, we didn't choose the

:46:10.:46:13.

timetable, it is a time limit on Article 50 so there is a limit. What

:46:14.:46:21.

we can't have is either house of Parliament reversing the decision of

:46:22.:46:25.

the British people. They haven't got a veto. What does it mean otherwise?

:46:26.:46:31.

People talk about a meaningful vote. I'm quite sure there will be votes

:46:32.:46:35.

to this process, there will be a vote on the deal we strike, it will

:46:36.:46:39.

be a meaningful vote in the sense of accepting it or not like any other

:46:40.:46:42.

international treaty. What happens if they don't accept it? That is

:46:43.:46:48.

what is called most-favoured-nation status with the World Trade

:46:49.:46:51.

Organisation. We go out on WTO rules. That is why we do the

:46:52.:46:56.

planning to make sure that is not harmful. But this is a reality, the

:46:57.:47:00.

decision has been made, the British people decided on June 23 last year

:47:01.:47:05.

to leave the European Union. That is going to happen. My job and the job

:47:06.:47:08.

of the government is to make the terms on which that happens as

:47:09.:47:12.

beneficial as possible. And remember, we keep talking about all

:47:13.:47:15.

of the negative sort of stuff, protecting this and protecting that,

:47:16.:47:25.

as well as protecting our European markets we are also going to be

:47:26.:47:27.

freed up to access all those other high-growth markets in the rest of

:47:28.:47:30.

the world, markets which we are uniquely equipped to make the best

:47:31.:47:34.

off because of our history, language etc. Let's assume just for the sake

:47:35.:47:37.

of argument you win the vote in the House of Commons tomorrow, the bill

:47:38.:47:40.

goes back to the House of Lords and they don't cause any more trouble.

:47:41.:47:43.

At that point is that when Article 50 can be triggered? In theory it's

:47:44.:47:51.

the point at which you have royal assent, at which point the Queen

:47:52.:47:53.

gives her approval and the built goes into law and becomes an act of

:47:54.:47:58.

Parliament. When it will be, people have been predicting the sixth, the

:47:59.:48:05.

ninth, the 15th. I want to pick the right day, each date has different

:48:06.:48:08.

locations in terms of when it can be responded to by the council and so

:48:09.:48:12.

on. I will not go into the details of why but there is politics in

:48:13.:48:16.

terms of success. There are elections and all that kind of thing

:48:17.:48:19.

and I understand that. Very soon we are going to trigger Article 50. My

:48:20.:48:26.

question is, what happens then? What happens then is very straightforward

:48:27.:48:30.

in formal terms, whether it is straightforward in negotiating terms

:48:31.:48:32.

is another matter. The letter goes to the Council and the Council must

:48:33.:48:41.

decide on a guideline and tell the commission had to carry out the

:48:42.:48:45.

negotiation. That would require a meeting of the council which will

:48:46.:48:49.

probably take a month. We now officially but probably a month

:48:50.:48:53.

depending on how they address it, and then they hand that guideline

:48:54.:48:59.

back to Jean-Claude Juncker who tells Michael Spanier how to run his

:49:00.:49:04.

negotiation and then we start -- Michel Barnier. The first

:49:05.:49:09.

negotiation will be how many meetings, will meet, and will come,

:49:10.:49:13.

specialists, etc. Where will it happen? Will it be here or Brussels?

:49:14.:49:20.

I suspect mostly Brussels but it won't just be Brussels. We have

:49:21.:49:23.

massively strong bilateral relationships with all of our other

:49:24.:49:27.

colleagues. This is an important question. Who are you really

:49:28.:49:31.

negotiating with? Is it Brussels Central as they think, or is it

:49:32.:49:36.

leaders around the EU? Does Angela Merkel get involved, or is it to you

:49:37.:49:40.

and Michel Barnier and you until you agree? It's both. The formal

:49:41.:49:45.

negotiation will be between the United Kingdom government and the

:49:46.:49:50.

Commission on behalf of the 27 member states, on behalf of the

:49:51.:49:56.

Council representing the 27 member states. But at certain points along

:49:57.:50:00.

the way they could be points of tension, let's imagine we disagree

:50:01.:50:07.

on a point and the Council says let's take a decision. A really

:50:08.:50:13.

important question, I've talked to people on the other side, and they

:50:14.:50:17.

save Britain can get friction free access to the Single Market and what

:50:18.:50:21.

they want but they will be a heavy financial price to pay. Dufner

:50:22.:50:25.

discussions about the so-called divorce Bill, the money, does that

:50:26.:50:28.

go in parallel with the other discussions or do you have to deal

:50:29.:50:33.

with the first? Firstly our argument is plain, we think these things have

:50:34.:50:36.

to be done in parallel and you can only make a judgment that way. The

:50:37.:50:40.

European Commission has favoured phrase which is nothing is agreed

:50:41.:50:43.

until everything is agreed and on this occasion I rather agree with

:50:44.:50:48.

them. So you want to run everything in parallel? There may be an

:50:49.:50:52.

argument for that but let's see how it turns out. They say they want to

:50:53.:50:57.

see how much British money they will get before they see how generous

:50:58.:51:00.

they will be another thing is. As the Chancellor said you last week

:51:01.:51:03.

and as the Prime Minister said during the course of the week, the

:51:04.:51:06.

days of giving huge sums of money are passed. What is huge? I am not

:51:07.:51:17.

going to negotiate on there. But on this point, if I'm may very quickly,

:51:18.:51:21.

because it's being suggested by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and

:51:22.:51:24.

others, there is a story in the Sunday Times today, that we might be

:51:25.:51:27.

getting money back from them rather than giving money to them. And that

:51:28.:51:33.

the actual bill might be negative as far as we're concerned. As they

:51:34.:51:36.

might say on a football programme this is a negotiation of two halves.

:51:37.:51:41.

We are not engaged yet, we haven't had a formal proposal from them yet.

:51:42.:51:46.

The thing to is that there is one thing which we know, the same from

:51:47.:51:53.

the member states and the commission, and that's the issue of

:51:54.:51:58.

the rights of citizens, European citizens here and UK citizens

:51:59.:52:01.

abroad. That is right up front, that is the first thing. That is the

:52:02.:52:06.

first thing you will deal with. And will we the result before the entire

:52:07.:52:09.

thing is concluded in two years' time? It may may not require a

:52:10.:52:15.

treaty but principle will be negotiated. I'm bluntly aware of

:52:16.:52:26.

where the negotiation will end. Virtually everyone I have been to

:52:27.:52:30.

see has raised that as a first issue and they all understand something,

:52:31.:52:35.

by the way, this has context. I understand why people are concerned

:52:36.:52:39.

and I think there is a moral responsibility towards citizens too

:52:40.:52:42.

but everybody understands that this is an issue that has got to be

:52:43.:52:45.

resolved together. Brits and Europeans together. The Polish Prime

:52:46.:52:55.

Minister when here said we must work together. In your best judgment of

:52:56.:52:59.

what is the day when we leave the European Union? March 2019, that is

:53:00.:53:05.

not to say there will not be some transition or implementation phase.

:53:06.:53:08.

In terms of people looking at Dai Rees, March 2019 is the date? Yes.

:53:09.:53:14.

Let me turn to the Northern Ireland question, they are worried about the

:53:15.:53:18.

return of the border and if we don't get a deal what is your message? We

:53:19.:53:22.

have put that pretty much as our top priority. The first visit I made was

:53:23.:53:29.

to Belfast to talk about this. We have looked very closely, and one of

:53:30.:53:35.

the contingency plans, or one of the plans being put together, is how on

:53:36.:53:41.

earth we create an invisible frictionless border between North

:53:42.:53:44.

and South, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. We have

:53:45.:53:49.

talked to the Irish government about it. The first foreign trip I made

:53:50.:53:53.

was to Dublin. They are on-site. We are determined to do it. The

:53:54.:53:56.

commission are on-site. The commission had a part to play in the

:53:57.:54:00.

peace process. Indeed Michel Barnier had a in the peace process. They are

:54:01.:54:05.

determined in their mind that this will not go wrong. That the

:54:06.:54:11.

combination of determination that exists here. When you were sitting

:54:12.:54:15.

in Cabinet on Wednesday did the Chancellor warned you he was about

:54:16.:54:20.

to break an election pledge? He told us the package he had put in front.

:54:21.:54:31.

Did you spot it? I will not go into detail on Cabinet issues, that would

:54:32.:54:37.

be a breach of my oath. There was no hiding of anything. Everybody knew

:54:38.:54:41.

what we were talking about. Sorry, did everybody know you were breaking

:54:42.:54:50.

an election pledge? I will not speak for everybody. I want to know if you

:54:51.:54:56.

knew he was breaking an election pledge. People say my job is the

:54:57.:54:59.

most difficult in government, I think the Chancellor's is the most

:55:00.:55:03.

difficult. Why? Because he's having to deal with the overhang of debt

:55:04.:55:08.

from 2008, Gordon Brown's mess. Understand this, what he has

:55:09.:55:14.

proposed is fair in terms of the less well off. It breaks an election

:55:15.:55:20.

pledge. Yes... You said yes, you have agreed. You are trying to trip

:55:21.:55:26.

me up. Pays for social welfare, National Health Service, all of

:55:27.:55:31.

those things everybody wants to do. Almost out of time. Are we going to

:55:32.:55:36.

see by-elections as a result of Conservative election fraud,

:55:37.:55:38.

alleged? I know nothing about that at all but I don't think so. Thank

:55:39.:55:40.

you, David Davis. Now a look at what's coming up

:55:41.:55:42.

straight after this programme. Joiners from Canterbury from 10am

:55:43.:55:51.

when we are asking whether the brightest children do better in

:55:52.:55:55.

grammar schools. And then the ethics of drones, military and domestic.

:55:56.:55:59.

And other side of the famous cathedral, the mother church of

:56:00.:56:02.

Anglicans, is it time to cut the Church of England's assets to size?

:56:03.:56:04.

We will see you at 10am. Thanks, as ever, to all my guests,

:56:05.:56:07.

because we're almost out of time. A decent show coming

:56:08.:56:11.

next week, I think, But for now, performing Highs Lows

:56:12.:56:13.

from her album Long Live The Angels, # Just pack your bags

:56:14.:56:17.

and run as fast as we can # We hold the future

:56:18.:56:43.

in the palm of our hands # I know you hear me,

:56:44.:56:46.

but do you understand # I'm giving you forever,

:56:47.:56:51.

baby, it's yours # And we run out of all

:56:52.:57:10.

the silver and gold # Will you still wanna

:57:11.:57:28.

be my someone to hold # See, I would tell

:57:29.:57:30.

you but you already know # It's banging in my heart

:57:31.:57:36.

like thunder # I'm giving you forever,

:57:37.:58:00.

baby, it's yours You can still see her -

:58:01.:58:30.

but it has to be supervised. You thought it was YOU

:58:31.:59:19.

I was afraid of.

:59:20.:59:22.

Interviews with political and cultural figures and a look at the Sunday newspapers. Andrew is joined by David Davis MP, secretary of state for exiting the European Union; Rebecca Long-Bailey MP, shadow secretary of state for business, energy and industrial strategy; and Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams. With music from Emeli Sande.