26/03/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


26/03/2017

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And a deranged man who fits no easy pattern.

:00:00.:00:18.

Isn't the truth that sometimes it's completely impossible

:00:19.:00:20.

And we need to learn to live with that unhappy fact.

:00:21.:00:39.

True or not, Amber Rudd the Home Secretary has

:00:40.:00:41.

lots of questions to answer about social media, radicalisation

:00:42.:00:45.

and the proper balance between security and freedom.

:00:46.:00:51.

Also with me the Tory peer

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Sayeeda Warsi on British Islam - which she ironically

:00:53.:00:54.

But, with Article 50 being triggered on Wednesday,

:00:55.:01:13.

we'll be talking about that too, with Labour's Brexit

:01:14.:01:16.

questioning David Tennant about love, death and eternal damnation.

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That is very major question for a Sunday morning. What would my father

:01:27.:01:28.

say? We have our own hells. with some appropriate Bach,

:01:29.:01:35.

by that great violinist the human rights

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barrister and Labour Peer Helena Kennedy,

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Trevor Kavanagh, Associate Editor of the Sun, and Sarah Baxter,

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deputy editor of Sunday Times. All that

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coming up in a while. Police say they might never find out

:01:52.:01:54.

why Khalid Masood killed four people near the Houses

:01:55.:02:14.

of Parliament on Wednesday. Scotland Yard now say they believe

:02:15.:02:16.

he was acting alone. The family of PC Keith Palmer

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who was killed by Masood have released a statement,

:02:19.:02:21.

thanking those who were 82 seconds. In that time, he caused

:02:22.:02:35.

the death of three people and injured many more. He crashed the

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car into the gates and stabbed PC Keith Palmer to death. His family

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expressed their gratitude to the people who were with Keith in their

:02:51.:02:52.

last moments. Police believe he carried out the

:02:53.:03:07.

attack on his own but are trying to establish whether he was encouraged

:03:08.:03:12.

by others. Questions Remain unanswered about his roots to

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radical Islam. Since Wednesday, 11 people have been arrested. They've

:03:22.:03:23.

all been released except the 58-year-old man from Birmingham. He

:03:24.:03:31.

can be held without charge for 14 days. Members of the public have

:03:32.:03:35.

come to the scene of the attack to pay their respects to the four

:03:36.:03:38.

people who lost their lives and remember the many injured and who

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Remain in hospital. More than 30 people have been hurt -

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two of them seriously - after a suspected gas

:03:46.:03:48.

explosion in Merseyside. A dance centre for children

:03:49.:03:50.

was destroyed and customers at a Chinese restaurant were caught

:03:51.:03:52.

in the blast in US Central Command says it has

:03:53.:03:55.

opened an investigation into an air strike on the Iraqi city of Mosul

:03:56.:04:01.

which is reported to have killed dozens of civilians

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earlier this month. American officials have acknowledged

:04:09.:04:09.

that US-led coalition aircraft took part in the attack

:04:10.:04:11.

on part of the city controlled The United Nations has warned

:04:12.:04:14.

of a "terrible loss of life". The government will set out details

:04:15.:04:21.

of its plans to bring EU law into domestic legislation

:04:22.:04:24.

on Thursday - the day after Theresa May is set to start

:04:25.:04:27.

the formal Brexit process. The Great Repeal Bill

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will bring EU regulations into domestic law, allowing them

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to be amended or The bill will allow ministers

:04:40.:04:44.

to alter regulations without the full scrutiny

:04:45.:04:49.

of MPs and peers. In case you missed it,

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the clocks went forward this morning and some people working in the UK's

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tourism sector are calling The British Association

:04:54.:04:56.

of Leisure Parks, Piers and Attractions says an extra 80,000

:04:57.:04:59.

jobs will be created due It also says shifting time zones

:05:00.:05:02.

would encourage more outdoor activity and cut obesity levels -

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especially among children. The next news on BBC One

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is at One o'clock. The words of the MPs who tried to

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save him. 82 seconds, that is the entire time this attack took to play

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out. The mail on Sunday, there is a story about Prince William's

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helicopter coming close to being hit. They have gone with Ukip Civil

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War is not news. The Observer said 150 deaths. Inside, they can peer

:06:12.:06:19.

coalition strike with the way the Russians Acted. EU migrants will

:06:20.:06:31.

keep their benefits after we leave the EU, which will break a party

:06:32.:06:38.

manifesto pledge. Boris Johnson attacking disgusting Google over

:06:39.:06:44.

terrorist connections. Let's start with Khalid Masood. The Sunday

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papers have taken a breath and delved into the background of a man

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who used to be known as Adrian. He was a Jack the Lad at school, very

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popular, in a band, the lead figure. Popular with the ladies but always

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with this hint of violence and menace and very quickly drawn into

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petty crime. When we talk about the type of people who conduct acts of

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terror, very often they are converts, people involved in drug

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and drinks. And in prison as well. That is right. In prison, he was

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radicalised, a couple of years later he was on his way to Saudi Arabia

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and it is fascinating how fast that process happened. But he spent 20

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years drifting around with different women, always very attractive, that

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is his first partner, and his lovely daughter. He was brought up in very

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small communities and you can see that he was the mixed race kid in

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very white backgrounds. He spent a lot of time in East Sussex. Not

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exactly brought up in one of those inner-city immunities that we are

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told is the hotbed. If he was a lone wolf you can see that he was always

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an outsider, the glass clone, popular but with his own set of

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codes. If he is radicalised the question is how he is radicalised.

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That brings us to social media. You've got an interview with Boris

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Johnson who lets fly at Google. He gets very cross and says it is

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disgusting, they need to stop making money out of prurient violence and

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terror. They know personally we -- perfectly well that they are

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harbouring and sheltering people who mean to do us harm. It is not just

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terrorism, it is child pornography. Lots of filthy stuff. If the

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American companies can be fined billions of pounds for oil spillage

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is, surely we can do something on that level against Google? There is

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a question of political will. She has a piece on social media firms

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and that they've got to join the war on terror. We actually do have law

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about violence and if you have, there is a piece in the mail, it is

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a lesson in how to stab. Code you can kill someone who is wearing an

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anti-stab vests. It is online. If somebody was doing that in a

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classroom they would be arrested for inciting violence. So we do have

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tools at our disposal at the media, it is something that politicians are

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worried about taking on. Advertisers said they would not advertise with

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Google if they are putting the stuff out. Slipped down to ?500 billion in

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their share price. The truth is that you need to use your teeth if you're

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Home Secretary and make the media know that this kind of stuff is not

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possible. Should there be a change in the law? I think you've got stuff

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in your disposal already and you just need to be fierce about using

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it. You'd only need one prosecution. I don't like the idea of threatening

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prosecution but you should except when it's necessary. I think showing

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someone how to stab is crossing the line. You are endlessly attacking

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people for attacking the media, but is a messaging service the media?

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This is not the media, it is the electronic media. You would not get

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this in the British press or the American press, this is online. But

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nowadays there is so much power in those companies, it has shifted from

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your old-fashioned world and even those media outlets now have such

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incredible influence that people don't want to take them on. It is

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not just that, they used to think they were super cool and would look

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out of date if they intervened with these giants. The other government

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was very cool, they had Google in and out. I think we've woken up to

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the damage. There is also an attack on the tax situation. This may be

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the beginning. Can we go back to this man, we are seeing a shift, the

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attempt to recruit and make bombs has actually run into the sand and

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they are needing to rely on sociopaths, people with serious

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problems, who are outliers who are radicalised. It is very much on

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their own. He went to Saudi Arabia. It is often people feel no forum in

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their lives and suddenly a very limited, restrictive Islam provides

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rules. There is a common than armies -- denominator. They leave school

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and they become adults and they get into drug and drink. This applies to

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all those involved in the massacres in the east. He was a heavy drug use

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are pumping himself up on steroids. Yes, this is the point people will

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not address. It happened with the terrorist who killed Jill Cox. -- Jo

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Cox. He was poisoned with poisonous stuff around xenophobia. Shall we

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say intranet stuff? There was a lot of debate in the referendum about

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foreigners and he did not like that she was speaking passionately about

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refugees. Break at the top of the programme, given some of these

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people are individuals. They are individuals. All they need is a hire

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car and a knife. Absolutely. And all they need is 80 seconds to do that

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damage. We were promised an extra 1500 armed police officers but

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recruitment is not going well. Indeed. One of the things that came

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out is far from having armed police there, there were none. Apart from

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the protection officers I complete coincidence. They were not even

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routinely moving around the buildings. We have spoken a lot

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about the terror attack. Let's move on to the Observer's coverage of the

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EU demonstration. The estimates are always below the reality. Or the

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reverse, maybe. I don't think so. It was a defiant demonstration against

:15:45.:15:53.

Brexit. It was also saying, 48% of people who voted, not even the fool

:15:54.:15:57.

electorate, really wanted to Remain in the Europe, the message from that

:15:58.:16:03.

is the kind of excerpts reflecting the fact that people voted in the

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majority to leave must be softer than what has been allowed for.

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People were saying we want something different from what is being talked

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about. As a Labour peer, isn't that an

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example of Labour's weakness, that there has to be a demonstration

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outside the gates of Parliament? I thought it was regrettable we didn't

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take a much stronger position on the fact that actually this is going to

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be... Hard Brexit is going to be very tough on ordinary folk, but

:16:41.:16:45.

also middle-class people, that in fact people did not vote to be

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impoverished. I haven't always been a fan of David Davis but he has been

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one of the surprise success stories of this Brexit government. He is a

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trained SAS killer who used to be known famously for... If he sort of

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back he would starve it. He has come out as a harmonious figure, saying

:17:12.:17:15.

this doesn't need to be a hard Brexit. -- if he saw a back he'd

:17:16.:17:27.

stab it. Is the Europeans want to play at hard, we will end up with a

:17:28.:17:37.

hard Brexit. There will be a deal allowing EU migrants to keep their

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benefits... I mean this Government does seem to have an easier as far

:17:43.:17:49.

as its original... Before we finally run out of time, the Ukip story, a

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certain amount of amusement that Douglas Carswell was this unlikely

:17:55.:17:59.

figure for Ukip, had a long war with Nigel Farage right the way through,

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now he's out as an independent. And then war goes on. They have all

:18:05.:18:09.

stabbed each other so many times there is literally not one person

:18:10.:18:13.

left standing. It's a coincidence because we are on the eve of a great

:18:14.:18:19.

bill and there is no point to Ukip any more whatsoever. They will

:18:20.:18:23.

disagree, they have a very big week ahead. Thank you to all of you, very

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interesting. Sayeeda Warsi, a former

:18:28.:18:29.

minister in David Cameron's coalition government,

:18:30.:18:31.

was the UK's first Muslim Now in the House of Lords, she's

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an outspoken critic of her own party over its counter terrorism strategy

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and policies towards She's just about to publish a book

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about Muslims in Britain - Welcome, Baroness Warsi. In this

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book you lay out the pattern of the kind of people who commit terror,

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and actually in this latest case, Massoud seems to fit it neatly. And

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one of the questions I have asked for a number of years now is what

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makes a jihadi. There is so much expert intelligence out there,

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academics, researchers, people who have studied deeply the lives of

:19:16.:19:18.

these terrorists who say there can be anything up to about 28 different

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reasons, different tell-tale signs and my argument has consistently

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been that the Government has obsessively focused on one, which we

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refer to as Islamist ideology, which is important but it is but one

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factor. And this is an example of someone who was not born a Muslim

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and convert relatively late in life and is radicalised in prison. If we

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had a different way of searching for these people, what would it look

:19:48.:19:50.

like? It is difficult to search for these people, in the past there has

:19:51.:19:56.

been a narrative which says somehow Muslim communities know who these

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people are amongst themselves, that somehow not only do they know them

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but they are condemning them and maybe even sheltering them. What we

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have seen in the terrorist attack from last week is it is incredibly

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difficult. This is a young man born in a Christian home, a fairly

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comfortable home, seemed to be giving a fairly good lifestyle, was

:20:17.:20:23.

popular, then got involved in criminality. He didn't convert to

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Islam until later in life, so he was a violent Christian long before he

:20:27.:20:31.

was a violent Muslim. I'm not sure even his own family would know you'd

:20:32.:20:36.

go on to commit such an extreme and so it is important to go back to

:20:37.:20:41.

evidence -based policy making. Why is it that you get these damaged,

:20:42.:20:46.

violence, often drug-taking young men, and they convert again and

:20:47.:20:52.

again to Islam for they commit acts? They don't choose other religions,

:20:53.:20:57.

they choose Islam. Although there are people around the world who are

:20:58.:21:02.

evangelical Christians who commit acts, even Buddhists who commit

:21:03.:21:07.

acts. People always want to find a cause. No one will say I am an

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extremist, I want to commit violent acts because that's the kind of

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violent man I am, which clearly Khalid Masood was. If you go back to

:21:18.:21:26.

the GBH he was convicted of in early life, there is some suggestion that

:21:27.:21:29.

the argument he gave to court at that time was that he had been

:21:30.:21:33.

racially abused so his violent act was based on his racial identity so

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people will always find a grievance. In your book you are very eloquent

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about the pressure now and the sense of despair felt by a lot of Muslims

:21:43.:21:47.

in this country about Islamophobia but isn't it also the case, and

:21:48.:21:50.

although Islam is a peaceful religion for the vast majority of

:21:51.:21:57.

people, there is a strain of modern Islamic thought which is extremely

:21:58.:22:01.

aggressive, it sees life on this planet as an eternal fight between

:22:02.:22:13.

the righteous and the unbelievers. I think Madeleine Albright put it

:22:14.:22:17.

best, she said every religious text has the potential to create eternal

:22:18.:22:22.

peace and the potential to create eternal war. If you take any text

:22:23.:22:28.

from any religion and try to use it in a way that justifies violence we

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can do that. I come from a very mixed theological background, a

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strong sunny -- Sunni family... It is people who are violent and

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extreme, who will use any text to try to justify their position. In

:22:53.:22:57.

your book, The Enemy Within, you have recommendations for different

:22:58.:23:00.

groups including Muslims in Britain, can you say what you think us to

:23:01.:23:05.

change among Muslim communities in Britain, because a lot of them are

:23:06.:23:09.

closed off from the rest of society and have turned their backs on

:23:10.:23:13.

mainstream British society. One of the arguments I make is that Britain

:23:14.:23:19.

and Islam have known each other since seventh century Britain, we

:23:20.:23:22.

have had interactions for hundreds of years and it is important,

:23:23.:23:34.

especially for a post 9/11 Britain, that it is important to

:23:35.:23:37.

contextualise this relationship. I have an open conversation with my

:23:38.:23:41.

co-religionists in this book and I say I'm having this conversation

:23:42.:23:45.

with you is not because you are terrorists, you're not, there are 3

:23:46.:23:50.

million of them, us, and everyone in this country would have perished if

:23:51.:23:58.

they were, but is the community fit for purpose. So what I talk to the

:23:59.:24:03.

British Muslim communities about is not counterterrorism, but whether

:24:04.:24:06.

they are the best community they could possibly be for Britain 2017.

:24:07.:24:11.

When the state is dealing with Islamic ideology they have this...

:24:12.:24:18.

Islamist ideology. They don't like that word. It's not factually

:24:19.:24:23.

correct. It's an academic discussion. Nonetheless, when people

:24:24.:24:29.

are against this thing, whatever it is, they have this strategy called

:24:30.:24:36.

Prevent, which you are very critical of. It is one of the four strands,

:24:37.:24:43.

and there is a lobby out there which trashes Prevent and says we don't

:24:44.:24:50.

need it, another lobby says it is perfect. Where I would stand is I

:24:51.:24:55.

think the reality is somewhere in between. Prevent in its current form

:24:56.:25:00.

has huge problems, it is broken, the brand is toxic, there are questions

:25:01.:25:05.

over the training, the trainers, the level of quality of training within

:25:06.:25:09.

schools, how it is being implemented on the front line, and therefore

:25:10.:25:14.

what I've asked for is a pause, an independent review, look at what has

:25:15.:25:18.

worked and what hasn't, and then put in place a Prevent-like strategy

:25:19.:25:27.

that is trusted by the communities it is trying to engage. Thank you

:25:28.:25:31.

for talking to us. Every week I brightly announce

:25:32.:25:32.

that spring has arrived. And every week an icy grey downpour

:25:33.:25:36.

is the celestial response. Can the Gods of the weather

:25:37.:25:38.

do better this time? Over to Chris Fawkes

:25:39.:25:41.

in the weather studio. I will do my best. Over the next few

:25:42.:25:52.

days we have some warm sunshine to come, high pressure in charge, a

:25:53.:25:58.

glorious sunshine to start the day. There are a few bits and pieces of

:25:59.:26:03.

cloud around, one long working across London at the moment. Some

:26:04.:26:08.

missed in the Western Isles, cloudy in Shetland, but apart from that it

:26:09.:26:12.

is almost wall-to-wall sunshine across the UK. Temperature s could

:26:13.:26:21.

reach 19 degrees in Scotland so the warmest day so far. It will be a

:26:22.:26:26.

chilly night, in parts of rural Northern Ireland, Scotland and

:26:27.:26:29.

England there could be pockets of frost. Maybe some patches of cloud

:26:30.:26:34.

to start the day across eastern England but generally a decent start

:26:35.:26:37.

of the new working week with the high pressure continuing to bring

:26:38.:26:41.

sunny, warm weather, but there will be changes on Tuesday with outbreaks

:26:42.:26:46.

of rain on the way particularly affecting western areas. Here is

:26:47.:26:55.

Monday's forecast, this cloud breaking up with sunshine coming

:26:56.:26:56.

through widely. With lighter winds across south-east England it will

:26:57.:26:59.

warm up, although generally the warmest weather will be across

:27:00.:27:03.

western parts of the UK. Thing is not looking too bad but changes

:27:04.:27:05.

midweek. Andrew. The real fight starts now,

:27:06.:27:10.

says Jeremy Corbyn, The Shadow Brexit Secretary

:27:11.:27:12.

Keir Starmer is with me. Good morning. It's a big week for

:27:13.:27:24.

Brexit and you have said the Labour Party will hold the Government to

:27:25.:27:29.

account, so when? Would you mind if I just say on behalf of all MPs from

:27:30.:27:33.

all parties that we send our condolences to the victims and their

:27:34.:27:39.

families and of special thanks to Keith Palmer who died protecting us.

:27:40.:27:48.

Thank you for that. Moving back to the Brexit story, this is a big week

:27:49.:27:53.

for Brexit, the big repeal bill is coming and Article 50 is being

:27:54.:27:57.

triggered and you have said it will hold the Government to account and I

:27:58.:28:03.

must just ask you how. I'm setting out six tests for the final Brexit

:28:04.:28:14.

deal. Now what comes into focus is what is the right deal because this

:28:15.:28:18.

is about our future relationship with the EU so I'm setting out six

:28:19.:28:22.

tests for the Government, we then start a two year process and it is

:28:23.:28:28.

for the Government to negotiate and come back with a deal that's right

:28:29.:28:33.

for our country. And luckily I have your six tests here, I won't go

:28:34.:28:38.

through all of them. You say you want a strong, collaborative future

:28:39.:28:42.

relationship with the EU, I would suggest everyone wants that. You

:28:43.:28:48.

would say that but some of the pure Brexiteers want's to crush out even

:28:49.:28:55.

at the Article 50 stage or before that. It's important to say that

:28:56.:29:00.

because not everyone is in that place. You will have seen the words

:29:01.:29:03.

of some this week about what might happen if we don't have a deal, in

:29:04.:29:07.

your view how damaging would it be not to have a deal? Very damaging,

:29:08.:29:13.

economically, that's what the Mayor of London and many others have said,

:29:14.:29:17.

in pure economic terms, but there's also Britain's place in Europe and

:29:18.:29:22.

the world. If we crush out without a deal with no meaningful

:29:23.:29:30.

relationships. I accept we will be members but we must be partners.

:29:31.:29:33.

Let's come onto the second bit, you say we want the exact same benefits,

:29:34.:29:37.

your words, from the single market and the customs union, can I put to

:29:38.:29:42.

you that that is not going to happen. We are outside both of those

:29:43.:29:46.

things. It was made plain we cannot get all of the same benefits as if

:29:47.:29:51.

we were inside so therefore that's a hopeless thing to ask for. We are

:29:52.:29:56.

not inside, I accept that, I do not accept we can't have the same

:29:57.:30:01.

benefits. Those words, exact same benefits, they are not my words.

:30:02.:30:07.

They are in my text but they are taken from David Davis, the

:30:08.:30:11.

Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. When he was pressed on this in

:30:12.:30:15.

Parliament, he said he would deliver a comprehensive free trade agreement

:30:16.:30:18.

and customs arrangements that delivered the exact same benefits as

:30:19.:30:22.

the single market and customs union so we are hoping -- holding him to

:30:23.:30:28.

that. The Government cannot turn around and say this is not

:30:29.:30:32.

achievable because it was David Davis who set that. Now we come onto

:30:33.:30:39.

the interesting bit which is that Mr Juncker this week and many others

:30:40.:30:43.

have said it may be achievable but there's a real price to pay. It's

:30:44.:30:49.

about ?50 billion, is that a price worth paying?

:30:50.:30:54.

I would get into the price but it is worth establishing what the money is

:30:55.:31:03.

for, what are the principles to be applied to it, and then the Prime

:31:04.:31:11.

Minister should say, we are a country that will meet our

:31:12.:31:15.

obligations and when a figure is arrived that that is one the UK

:31:16.:31:20.

will... You accept that we will need to pay a fairly hefty bill to get

:31:21.:31:27.

access to the single market? There will be a bill and we should say

:31:28.:31:30.

that we are a country that honours our obligation. How much and over

:31:31.:31:37.

what period is to be negotiated. This should be transitional

:31:38.:31:40.

arrangements from March 2019 until we reach and conclude the

:31:41.:31:43.

relationship that we need. That could be paid over a longer period

:31:44.:31:54.

if we get the right relationship. You talk about the fair management

:31:55.:31:58.

of migration which is a fairly bland thing to say. What is Labour's

:31:59.:32:14.

immigration policy? Immigration was part of the debate and civil freedom

:32:15.:32:20.

of movement has to go. Your leader suggested that might not be the

:32:21.:32:27.

case. It is an EU rule. It will have to go and therefore there is a blank

:32:28.:32:33.

use of paper. But we must have managed migration, I think the most

:32:34.:32:38.

important things are, firstly, what will work for the economy and what

:32:39.:32:47.

is right for our communities. Do you see EU migration falling

:32:48.:32:50.

dramatically? I think it might but I've spoken to hundreds of

:32:51.:32:55.

businesses who are very concerned that there should be the right rules

:32:56.:32:58.

in place to enable them to continue with their businesses. But you rule

:32:59.:33:08.

out freedom of movement? It is an EU rules so it will go. We will then

:33:09.:33:12.

start with the principles that we need to apply to this. Your leader

:33:13.:33:22.

said, we do not rule it out. That is one where he said, I will not rule

:33:23.:33:29.

it out or commit to it. The reality is it is an EU rule and it will grow

:33:30.:33:35.

when we depart. That gives us an opportunity to say, what does a

:33:36.:33:44.

principled immigration policy look like? There are your principles. If

:33:45.:33:51.

you don't get them what do you do? I hope that the Prime Minister gets

:33:52.:33:57.

the right one for country. If you don't get what you want, what going

:33:58.:34:06.

to happen to make the Prime Minister change her mind? This is where the

:34:07.:34:12.

work we've done comes into play. We set the tests tomorrow, we have a

:34:13.:34:19.

report back so we know where we are going. We also won a concession in

:34:20.:34:23.

the house so we will have fought on the final deal. If the test is not

:34:24.:34:28.

met then we will not support the deal. Is there any chance of there

:34:29.:34:36.

being enough Tory rebels alongside the SNP and Liberal Democrat to

:34:37.:34:44.

defeat the government? The balance in the house is for our strong

:34:45.:34:51.

collaborative relationship and not extreme Brexit. I would hope that

:34:52.:34:57.

the place we land and then we go on to transitional measures. Do you

:34:58.:35:08.

agree with Tom Watson that there is an organised attempt by left-wingers

:35:09.:35:13.

to tape over -- take of the Labour Party? I think Tom Watson was quite

:35:14.:35:20.

right to call them out on what happened last week. But we do need

:35:21.:35:26.

to find a way to come together and fight the important fights. We've

:35:27.:35:32.

got article 50 being triggered on Wednesday. There are big issues the

:35:33.:35:39.

Labour Party needs to be focused on. It looks as if the fight over the

:35:40.:35:43.

union leadership as a proxy for the Labour Party. Do you have a message?

:35:44.:35:51.

I don't have a message for Len McCluskey or anyone else other than

:35:52.:35:55.

we should celebrate that we've got some new members but we need to come

:35:56.:35:59.

together and we need to have clarity about what we are for. Thank you

:36:00.:36:03.

very much for talking to us. Ever since his five-year

:36:04.:36:07.

residency as Doctor Who, David Tennant's been universally

:36:08.:36:09.

acclaimed on stage and screen. He's about to open in one

:36:10.:36:11.

of the filthiest and funniest plays We caught up a stone's throw

:36:12.:36:14.

from Soho where he'll be strutting his stuff for 11 weeks

:36:15.:36:18.

as Moliere's Don Juan, Tennant's father

:36:19.:36:20.

was a man of the cloth, so we discussed the moral message

:36:21.:36:23.

of Moliere and damnation itself. First though, we talked about the TV

:36:24.:36:27.

success that is Broadchurch. Can you make a time to come down

:36:28.:36:33.

to the station for a full statement about your movements

:36:34.:36:37.

on Saturday night? Is there any particular

:36:38.:36:40.

reason I need to do that? We need all the details we can get,

:36:41.:36:43.

it was your party after all. I will need you to give a sample

:36:44.:36:50.

of DNA, we will be asking everyone Up and down the country,

:36:51.:36:53.

little groups of writers are scurrying away, trying

:36:54.:37:00.

to produce a TV hit. They look at Broadchurch

:37:01.:37:02.

and they think, why If you could isolate

:37:03.:37:04.

the elements that turn things into gold you would be

:37:05.:37:12.

an alchemist, wouldn't you? An awful lot of it depends

:37:13.:37:17.

on your relationship It's the chemistry

:37:18.:37:19.

between the two of view. I think yes, I think Olivia

:37:20.:37:23.

and I would both say that comes from the writing,

:37:24.:37:25.

that's where it starts. It's the fact Chris Chibnall writes

:37:26.:37:27.

these fantastic scripts and gives us I mean it helps that Olivia is not

:37:28.:37:30.

bad and rather funny. Could you describe your

:37:31.:37:38.

marriage to us, Kath? I'd describe it

:37:39.:37:45.

as loveless, that do? You've also had to deal with huge

:37:46.:37:58.

secrecy about the twists and turns of the plot,

:37:59.:38:04.

kept secret even from... So, you don't know

:38:05.:38:06.

what's going to happen? You don't, but then as a policeman

:38:07.:38:09.

that's quite useful, it transpires. You know, you can get a little

:38:10.:38:12.

grumpy about the fact that you don't quite know where the story is going,

:38:13.:38:15.

but then when you're in an interview situation and you have

:38:16.:38:18.

no idea the actor across the table from you is lying, in character

:38:19.:38:21.

or not, it's quite helpful really. And we only know as each new script

:38:22.:38:25.

comes what happens in it. And for that audience,

:38:26.:38:29.

lapping it up week after week, Chris Chibnall has a big

:38:30.:38:31.

new job coming up. He's going to be running a little

:38:32.:38:39.

suit called Doctor Who, I don't know if you know it,

:38:40.:38:41.

so he's going to be quite busy. Don Juan in Soho, it's based

:38:42.:38:45.

on a Moliere play but give us Yes, it's quite brutally updated,

:38:46.:38:50.

it's very much in the London of now He is a womaniser, he's

:38:51.:38:55.

a chaser of pleasure. He's arguably a sociopath and it's

:38:56.:39:03.

the story of a couple of days in his hectic,

:39:04.:39:07.

extraordinary, intoxicating life. This is possibly one of the

:39:08.:39:12.

filthiest plays I have ever seen. Also very, very funny, and in

:39:13.:39:16.

the end it's a moralistic play. To what extent is this,

:39:17.:39:21.

in the end, a sermon? It poses the life of this

:39:22.:39:24.

extraordinary hedonist and it makes you wonder what that might be like,

:39:25.:39:34.

to be a libertarian, And at first, I think

:39:35.:39:38.

it's rather exciting, it's rather intoxicating and yet

:39:39.:39:44.

inevitably the chickens come home to roost and life doesn't

:39:45.:39:49.

really work that way. And the audience watching,

:39:50.:39:53.

horrified fascination, this man with really no moral

:39:54.:39:55.

scruples at all. But towards the end,

:39:56.:39:57.

hell is beginning to gape. It is, and he sort of knows

:39:58.:40:04.

in the back of his mind that it's coming, there is kind

:40:05.:40:07.

of ticking clock. The supernatural literally rises

:40:08.:40:10.

from the earth to get him. That's a very major question

:40:11.:40:13.

for Sunday morning. I think we all have our own hells

:40:14.:40:21.

that we are running from, don't we? Is that an ambiguous

:40:22.:40:30.

enough answer for you? It's a heck of a role,

:40:31.:40:33.

how does it compare with Hamlet? Because a lot of people

:40:34.:40:36.

remember your Hamlet, may have seen it on the screen

:40:37.:40:38.

if they haven't seen it in the theatre, and in a sense this

:40:39.:40:41.

is almost as big a role in terms of the number of words,

:40:42.:40:45.

the amount of time you spend on the stage leaping around,

:40:46.:40:47.

very athletic, very relentless, It is a different part,

:40:48.:40:50.

although there's a journey I think the greatest roles all have

:40:51.:40:54.

that in there somewhere. It starts in a very different place,

:40:55.:41:01.

it's bawdier, although Hamlet It's a modern sex comedy in a way

:41:02.:41:05.

that Hamlet probably usually isn't, but there's a trajectory

:41:06.:41:15.

of the character there which has You mentioned Doctor Who,

:41:16.:41:22.

and Mr Capaldi is hanging up his funny hat and so forth

:41:23.:41:26.

and stepping to one side. I remember talking to you before

:41:27.:41:29.

you became Doctor Who and we were discussing how this

:41:30.:41:34.

was going to completely change your I think you were taking your

:41:35.:41:37.

girlfriend to a rock "I will never be able to do that

:41:38.:41:40.

again in the same way." And what's your advice

:41:41.:41:44.

to whoever is taking over? Because the show is so big

:41:45.:41:48.

and because people love it so much and so deeply,

:41:49.:41:55.

and because it's part it's part of our cultural furniture,

:41:56.:41:57.

Doctor Who, and that's a huge honour to be in the middle of, but it's

:41:58.:42:02.

quite a responsibility as well. I mean it opens a lot of doors,

:42:03.:42:07.

I get to be in the West End and that's due in no small part

:42:08.:42:12.

to the fact Doctor Who brought me to a new audience,

:42:13.:42:15.

but it's an undertaking. I mean, it's desperately

:42:16.:42:18.

exciting for whoever the next person might be,

:42:19.:42:21.

but yes, it takes a deep breath. Do you know who the

:42:22.:42:24.

next Doctor Who is? I don't, but I'd have

:42:25.:42:27.

to say that even if I did! Later this morning, Andrew Neil

:42:28.:42:30.

will have the latest on the investigation

:42:31.:42:40.

into the Westminster terror attack. He'll be talking to the Leader

:42:41.:42:43.

of the House of Commons, David Lidington and -

:42:44.:42:46.

as UKIP's only MP quits the party - That's the Sunday Politics

:42:47.:42:49.

at 11 here on BBC One. There are lots of questions

:42:50.:42:55.

still to answer about this week's Now, it may be that it's too early

:42:56.:42:58.

to get all the answers we want, but if anyone is privy to the real

:42:59.:43:03.

story, it's my next guest. In your view is this a lone attacker

:43:04.:43:20.

or is there a wider logic? What we are hearing from the places they

:43:21.:43:26.

believe it is a lone attacker. It is an ongoing investigation, they are

:43:27.:43:30.

investigating his journey, the people he spoke to, we cannot be

:43:31.:43:33.

completely conclusive but as we find out more, that is what it will

:43:34.:43:46.

confirm. We know that there was a contact before the attack and if we

:43:47.:43:49.

knew who that was and to whom, we would no more. But the message

:43:50.:43:56.

system is encrypted at both ends and the security services will never see

:43:57.:44:05.

what you do. We've got this here. Messages are secured with end-to-end

:44:06.:44:12.

encryption. It tells you, you will be completely safe, nobody will ever

:44:13.:44:16.

see you. That is what a lot of people think terrorists are using.

:44:17.:44:22.

If that situation completely unacceptable? That is my view, it is

:44:23.:44:27.

somewhere that should be completely unacceptable. There should be no

:44:28.:44:31.

place for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that they do not

:44:32.:44:35.

provide a secret place for terrorists to communicate with each

:44:36.:44:40.

other. It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or listen

:44:41.:44:43.

on phones to find out what people were doing but in this situation we

:44:44.:44:48.

must make sure our intelligence services have the ability to get

:44:49.:44:52.

into situations like encrypted messaging. This is the same argument

:44:53.:45:00.

going on with Apple, who said they are not going to allow the American

:45:01.:45:04.

authorities to open a back door into their product and if they don't do

:45:05.:45:09.

it then this encryption continues. Do you think they've got to take on

:45:10.:45:13.

the big Internet companies and force them to open up their devices? If I

:45:14.:45:20.

was talking to Tim Cook I would say we don't want to go into the cloud,

:45:21.:45:24.

do all sorts of things like that, but they want -- we want them to

:45:25.:45:30.

recognise they have a responsibility to engage with law enforcement

:45:31.:45:34.

agencies when there is a terrorist situation. We would do it through

:45:35.:45:40.

careful, legally tight arrangements but we cannot get away with them

:45:41.:45:46.

saying it is not. Tim Cook said it would be wrong for the government to

:45:47.:45:51.

build a back door into our products and yet without that you cannot find

:45:52.:45:56.

out what you need to find out. I would ask him again to find out

:45:57.:45:58.

other ways of getting into situations like WhatsApp on the

:45:59.:46:08.

apple phone. That's why I am calling in a lot of organisations to ask

:46:09.:46:14.

them to work with us to deliver the answer. It is not about them

:46:15.:46:21.

standing back from us. Can I ask who you are calling in? It is a fairly

:46:22.:46:26.

long list but smaller companies as well to make sure there's no hiding

:46:27.:46:30.

place for terrorists. I want to make sure everyone takes responsibility.

:46:31.:46:35.

There are plenty of hiding places at the moment. If WhatsApp say they

:46:36.:46:42.

will not end encryption, alone or as messages to carry on, will you

:46:43.:46:43.

legislate? I do agree we have to have a

:46:44.:46:53.

situation where we can have our security services get into the

:46:54.:46:57.

terrorist communications, that's absolutely the case so of course I

:46:58.:47:00.

will have those conversations. Because this is a big selling point,

:47:01.:47:05.

they advertise this as a positive virtue of their systems. They will

:47:06.:47:10.

not want to change, you will have to make them change. I'm not saying I

:47:11.:47:17.

want to get into your WhatsApp, and saying where there are ongoing

:47:18.:47:20.

investigations with terrorists, people with families and children

:47:21.:47:25.

should be on our side and I will try to win the argument. A parallel

:47:26.:47:29.

situation, much discussion in the press this week has been the use of

:47:30.:47:34.

big online sites to advocate all kinds of horrible and hate filled

:47:35.:47:38.

terrorist related stuff and it took 30 seconds... I won't show it on

:47:39.:47:44.

air, but guidelines for doing just terror operations and it shows you

:47:45.:47:51.

how to stab someone to death if they are wearing a stab proof vest. Again

:47:52.:47:56.

I put it to you this is an acceptable in the world we now live.

:47:57.:48:00.

It is completely unacceptable and we have been active making sure we get

:48:01.:48:05.

that message out. In my department would take down that sort of

:48:06.:48:10.

imagery, we have taken down 250,000 since 2010. But this has been

:48:11.:48:15.

voluntary and after the event. This stuff is out where and you may have

:48:16.:48:20.

to legislate and use the law against these companies to stop it from

:48:21.:48:24.

happening. What these companies have to realise is they are publishing

:48:25.:48:28.

companies, they are platforms and we need to make sure that stops. You

:48:29.:48:33.

are right, we will not resile from taking action if we need to do so

:48:34.:48:37.

but there has been a lot of good action taken, for instance on child

:48:38.:48:40.

sexual exploitation may have worked together. He would tell people to

:48:41.:48:50.

take that down? Absolutely we would. If you look at companies like Amazon

:48:51.:48:54.

and Google, they are such big, powerful companies that Amber Rudd

:48:55.:48:58.

and the British government are not really up to taking them on, they

:48:59.:49:03.

are too big for you. I would say think again because we want to do

:49:04.:49:06.

this but we also want other countries to do this. I'm in

:49:07.:49:10.

conversations with the US and the European Union have said they will

:49:11.:49:14.

talk to us about these items. Do you like the German plan to put fines on

:49:15.:49:20.

companies who put this up? I would rather have a situation where we get

:49:21.:49:23.

all of these companies around the table agreeing to do it. I know it

:49:24.:49:28.

sounds like we are stepping away from legislation but we are not. The

:49:29.:49:33.

best people who understand the technology and the necessary

:49:34.:49:37.

hashtags to stop this stuff being put up are going to be them, and I

:49:38.:49:42.

would like to have an industrywide board setup where they do it

:49:43.:49:46.

themselves. They could do this, I want to make sure they do. Another

:49:47.:49:51.

way of looking at this attack is that it was incredibly low hiring a

:49:52.:49:56.

car and buying a knife. Isn't the real truth that in this world and

:49:57.:50:03.

those kind of attacks can't always be stopped. If you tripled the

:50:04.:50:07.

budget for MI5 and MI6, they still wouldn't be able to catch everybody.

:50:08.:50:13.

I'm afraid that is the sad truth. We have been at the threat level of

:50:14.:50:18.

severe for two and a half years, we haven't had an Islamist attack like

:50:19.:50:23.

this for four years but they will always try to attack us in our homes

:50:24.:50:29.

and in the centre of democracy. And this guy was peripheral, not on the

:50:30.:50:33.

radar in any serious way? I cannot comment any more, I --. It was a

:50:34.:50:49.

pure coincidence there were armed police there, and for a lot of

:50:50.:50:53.

people that is really strange that the main gate into Parliament at the

:50:54.:51:00.

time of a severe terror alert had no armed police on it. There are

:51:01.:51:04.

constant reviews and updates so we have the right form of defence in

:51:05.:51:09.

Parliament. It is not something we take lightly and as a result of this

:51:10.:51:13.

there will be another review. There are armed police in the Palace of

:51:14.:51:17.

Westminster so the decisions that have already been made have been

:51:18.:51:25.

carefully considered. Can you confirm it was Michael Fallon's

:51:26.:51:31.

people who did this? I can't, no. This throws in the air the business

:51:32.:51:36.

of emptying out Parliament and putting it somewhere else as the

:51:37.:51:40.

refurbishment goes on, do you think as a result of the attack this needs

:51:41.:51:44.

to be looked at again? The refurbishment comes back again and

:51:45.:51:52.

again, the best way to do it. Security needs to be watertight

:51:53.:51:58.

because MPs to feel under threat in their constituencies and Parliament.

:51:59.:52:02.

This wasn't about MPs, this was individual tourists walking down the

:52:03.:52:06.

street, it was an assault on the country. You may have heard Baroness

:52:07.:52:13.

Warsi talking about Prevent, she said it is time to have a pause, a

:52:14.:52:18.

judicial review and think again, but I think you intend to double down on

:52:19.:52:25.

it instead. I think it is the wrong time to have a pause, we need to

:52:26.:52:29.

have active communities trying to stop people becoming radicalised so

:52:30.:52:34.

I wouldn't pause it but I do recognise what Baroness Warsi said

:52:35.:52:37.

about needing to make more of an effort to sell it to communities. We

:52:38.:52:42.

need to show this is a safeguarding initiative about protecting young

:52:43.:52:49.

people. Let me ask you about the ban own laptops by some airlines. If

:52:50.:52:59.

tourists have found ways to turn laptops into bombs, presumably there

:53:00.:53:05.

should eventually be a full-time ban on laptops on aircraft anyway. It is

:53:06.:53:10.

difficult to say whether we will at some stage arrive at that place but

:53:11.:53:13.

at the moment the Government has made a decision on where to have the

:53:14.:53:17.

ban in place based on the intelligence we have received. Can I

:53:18.:53:22.

turn to Brexit, in simple terms how damaging would it be to this country

:53:23.:53:28.

not to have a deal? I think as the Prime Minister said it would be

:53:29.:53:31.

worse to have a bad deal than not to have a deal so we will enter into

:53:32.:53:35.

the negotiations over the next few weeks and two years to make sure we

:53:36.:53:43.

do get a deal. In my exchanges with interior ministries, in my area on

:53:44.:53:45.

security, it has been a very big welcome in terms of wanting this to

:53:46.:53:50.

work with them, wanting to have an engagement with the European Union

:53:51.:53:53.

that will continue the work we do with them. One description of no

:53:54.:53:58.

deal is more than 4 million citizens confronted with extreme uncertainty

:53:59.:54:03.

about their future, lengthening lorry queues at Dover, serious

:54:04.:54:07.

disruption in air traffic and possibly even nuclear fuel

:54:08.:54:13.

shortages. It's fair to say I don't recognise that description. That is

:54:14.:54:28.

the main negotiator, Michel Barnier. Of course he would say that. The UK

:54:29.:54:34.

economy is doing well and the world economy is doing well... I think

:54:35.:54:39.

there was a lot of positioning right now. Over the next two years I hope

:54:40.:54:47.

people will calm down and we will see a good deal work for us and the

:54:48.:54:53.

European Union. You want us to have full access to the single market and

:54:54.:54:58.

Customs union, they are saying that comes at a price, a ?50 billion deal

:54:59.:55:02.

was discussed this week by Mr Juncker, is that something we will

:55:03.:55:07.

end up having to pay? I do think we should have the widest possible

:55:08.:55:10.

access to the single market, that's what would be good to the economy.

:55:11.:55:15.

And that would be worth paying? We don't know what the cost will be. We

:55:16.:55:24.

have a lot to offer in this negotiation as well so we mustn't

:55:25.:55:27.

forget it will be two ways. I'm sure we will be talking about this for

:55:28.:55:30.

many months to come but the now thank you very much indeed.

:55:31.:55:31.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

:55:32.:55:34.

At ten o'clock in Oxford we will be debating whether hours of

:55:35.:55:39.

broadcasting about terrorist offence gives them exactly what they want,

:55:40.:55:44.

and then confession, if you bare your soul and admit your sins to a

:55:45.:55:50.

priest, rabbi or Imam, are there any circumstances they would reveal what

:55:51.:55:55.

you discussed to the authorities? See you at ten o'clock on BBC One.

:55:56.:55:58.

That's nearly all we have time for this week.

:55:59.:56:00.

I'm having a week off next week, Eddie Mair will be here

:56:01.:56:03.

But before we go, those affected by the London attack came from right

:56:04.:56:08.

across the globe - from Romania to America,

:56:09.:56:09.

We leave you now with a South Korean virtuoso who's recognised as one

:56:10.:56:14.

of the greatest violinists in the world.

:56:15.:56:16.

Kyung Wha Chung will be performing at the Barbican in May.

:56:17.:56:19.

After an awful week at Westminster, she's here now to play us

:56:20.:56:22.

out with Bach's Andante from the A minor sonata.

:56:23.:56:24.

For all the latest political news and debate,

:56:25.:58:55.

tune in to the Sunday Politics at 11,

:58:56.:58:57.

where we'll be analysing the week's big stories

:58:58.:58:59.

and talking to the politicians and commentators who count.

:59:00.:59:04.

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