31/01/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


31/01/2017

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Transcript


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I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

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This morning, when adoptions break down.

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Families who've had to make the heart-breaking decision to hand

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She got kicked, thumped, things like that, quite a lot.

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And quite a lot of emotional abuse to her as well.

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Yeah, and this is from a four, five-year-old kid.

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And we'll hear from other parents who say they're struggling to cope.

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If you've adopted a child and you're experiencing problems,

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If you have got over problems, tell us how you did it.

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Plus, this baby chimp has been rescued after traffickers tried

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Its parents had been deliberately killed

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We'll bring you the full story before 10am.

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And, a legal battle over the rights of parents to take their children

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out of school for holidays during term time reaches the highest

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We'll speak to the father at the centre of the case.

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Throughout the morning we'll bring you the latest breaking news

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And as always, really keen to hear from you.

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After 10am we'll be hearing how a primary school in Bournemouth has

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started allowing pupils to wear their comfy slippers

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in class, after research found it helps them to get better grades

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and generally improve their performance.

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If you work from home, you might already know that's the case.

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If you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

:02:15.:02:22.

Donald Trump has sacked the United States' top legal advisor

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after she questioned the legality of his travel ban.

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Acting Attorney-General Sally Yates, who'd been appointed

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by Barack Obama, said she couldn't defend the decision to stop refugees

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and citizens of seven Muslim countries from entering America.

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Donald Trump's controversial travel ban is facing resistance

:02:47.:02:49.

After a weekend of mass protests, chaos at airports and a diplomatic

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outcry came an unusual act of defiance on the part

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Sally Yates, appointed US Attorney General by Barack Obama,

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said in a letter to lawyers at the Justice Department that

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given her responsibility to ensure that the government stands

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Deeming that an act of betrayal, Mr Trump promptly sacked her,

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installing Dana Boente as the new Attorney General.

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Pending the swearing-in of Mr Trump's preferred candidate,

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Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions, whose confirmation has been delayed

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Sally Yates is not alone in her misgivings, though.

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Barack Obama said in a statement that he fundamentally disagreed

:03:47.:03:50.

with the notion of discriminating against individuals on the basis

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US diplomats have also registered their concerns,

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leading to this tongue lashing from the White House.

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If these career bureaucrats have a problem with it,

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I think that they should either get with the programme, or they can go.

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Later today, Mr Trump is due to announce his pick for a place

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The choice, he said, was one that would appeal

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He may also be hoping it leads to some better headlines.

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Our correspondent Richard Lister is here.

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What is the significance of the Attorney-General role?

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It is a big deal. The Attorney General is one of the top four

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cabinet positions, they are seen as one of the guardians of the

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Constitution. Although they are appointed by the president, their

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first duty is to protect the Constitution, and it is up to that

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person to defend Government laws at the Supreme Court, should they face

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challenges. We know that the President's executive order on

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immigration has been challenged by various courts, and it is likely it

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will end up in the Supreme Court. Sally Yates could have resigned

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quietly, she knows she will not stay, the president already has

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another Attorney General lined up, he is going to the procedure. She

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knew she would not be able to stay, she decided to make a fuss and say,

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I don't believe this order is lawful, I don't believe Government

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lawyers should defend it, and I will not defend it.

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Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:05:31.:05:32.

A French-Canadian student has appeared in court in Quebec,

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charged with the murder of six Muslim worshippers who were shot

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Alexandre Bissonnette, who's 27, did not speak

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He faces six counts of murder and five of attempted murder.

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Vigils have been held across Canada in memory

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The prospect of the UK leaving the European Union will move a step

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closer today when MPs begin debating the bill that will give Theresa May

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The Government was forced to draw up the legislation

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after being overruled in the Supreme Court.

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Some Labour MPs and the SNP have said they'll vote

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Adoption organisations have told this programme that a cap on funding

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for specialist therapy could lead to a rise in the number

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The Adoption Support Fund, which provides financial help

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for therapy, was cut last October to ?5,000 per child.

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Agencies are concerned that without sufficient funds to help

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children from disadvantaged backgrounds, families

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And later in this programme, we'll be hearing from families

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about their experience of adoption, and from some who've had to make

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the difficult decision to hand back their children.

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A network of wildlife traffickers selling baby chimpanzees as pets has

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been exposed by a year-long BBC News investigation.

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The research uncovered a notorious West African hub

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for wildlife trafficking, and led to the rescue

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The animals are seized from the wild and sold through corrupt

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officials and middlemen for about ?10,000 each.

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A legal battle over the rights of parents to take their children

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out of school for term-time holidays reaches the Supreme Court today.

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The case will have ramifications for families across England.

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Isle of Wight businessman John Platt says dozens of parents get

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in touch with him every day about term-time holiday finds.

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He decided to fight it all the way and says he has no regrets

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after taking his daughter to Disneyland when she had 90%

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The legal row is about what going to school regularly means.

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I believe it meant attending school frequently or very often

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but their position is it means every day.

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That is the most-draconian interpretation of this legislation

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Councils from the Isle of Wight to the north of England

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The rules say if a head declares an absence unauthorised the local

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council can find each parent ?60 per child.

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That fine can double if it's not paid within 21 days.

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Ministers say exam results shape children's futures and missing

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even a few days can make a clear difference.

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It's important because young people only get one chance

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at their education and one week, two weeks out of that can make

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an enormous difference in the progress they're able to make

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in any given year and overall in terms of their education.

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35 councils have told the BBC they've revised their guidance since

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The Supreme Court will make a decision within months.

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Scientists say they may have found the oldest human ancestor,

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a microscopic sea creature, with a bag-like body

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They've been studying fossilised traces of

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the 540-million-year-old creature in China.

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The sea animal is the earliest-known step on the evolutionary path

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that led to fish and, eventually, to humans.

:09:16.:09:21.

Peter Capaldi has announced his plans to hang up his sonic

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screwdriver and step down from Doctor Who.

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He will leave the Tardis for the last time during this

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year's Christmas Special, saying he feels it's

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Leaving us in need of a new Time Lord.

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Peter Capaldi will hand over the sonic screwdriver at the end

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He shocked fans with last night's announcement on live radio.

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I've always been somebody that did a lot of different things,

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I've never done one job for three years.

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This is the first time I've done this.

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And I feel it's sort of time for me to move on to different challenges.

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And it means a familiar challenge for the show.

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Now in its 54th year, with millions of fans,

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Regular regeneration has become the hallmark of a time traveller

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The new Doctor Who will be number 13.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

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Many messages from you on adoption, we will explore in detail the

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reasons why some adoptions breakdown, completely unaware there

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are so many positive examples, and I note you will give us some. One

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person says, many traumatised adopted teams end up involved in the

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criminal justice system. Jamie says, you are the only people focusing on

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this, we need to ask why the care system does not help. Hannah says,

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all I see negative stories, it would be great to see a successful

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adoption story. I was brought up by the best adoptive parents I could

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have wished for. Do get in touch with us

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throughout the morning, If you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate. Let's get some sport now,

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and John Watson is at the BBC We'll start with the FA Cup draw,

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and what a game in store Two non-league sides through for the

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first time, and they have been rewarded with some fast it games in

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the fifth round. This was the moment Sun United realised they were

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playing the 12th time winners Arsenal. Fantastic scenes of the

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draw was made. Arsenal and their superstars will be making the trip

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to Sultan, the capacity there is just 5000. They play on an

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artificial pitch. This was them knocking out Leeds United at the

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weekend. Their capacity 55,000 less than Arsenal. It is an incredible

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draw and a special moment for them, as it is for Lincoln City, the other

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non-league side in the draw. They knocked out right in at the weekend,

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they will play against Burnley. This was their victory at the weekend

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over Brighton, 3-1. They have been rewarded with that much against

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Burnley. Wolverhampton North East out Liverpool at the weekend, and a

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credible result. They have been rewarded with a much at Molineux

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against the Premier League table toppers Chelsea. Some great matches,

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you can see the draw in full on the BBC sport website.

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Can we expect a lot more business from what we have

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Plenty, we should see records surpassed again, it was 225 million

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in this window in 2011, we are expecting to see that surpassed, we

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are at 150 million already. The biggest deal is not a purchase by a

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Premier League club, it is Dimitri Payet moving to Marseille for 25

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million, that is the biggest so far. Saido Berahino left West Brom for

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Stoke City 14 million, Morgan Schneiderlin moved to Everton for 24

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million, and with the transfer window closing at 11pm, we can

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expect more moves coming. You can follow it all on social media. And

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there is a special programme on BBC Radio five Live, Mark Chapman

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following all of the moves as they happen until 11pm. My boys are

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wondering what to do with their Dimitri Payet West Ham shirt is now!

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Expensive times! It is 50 quid, unbelievable!

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Finally, John, there may be a few angry runners who ran

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They were 150 metres short of the exact instance, the 13.1 miles

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required. Everybody who competed, anybody who completed a personal

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best, all of those records have been wiped because they are 150 metres

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short. They went out on Sunday after concerns that the distance was not

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quite right, and that proved to be the case, the course was 150 metres

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short, so they will be disgruntled, because they have to go back to

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training if they want to try to meet that achievement again. The

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organisers, what were they doing? Have you ever heard of anything like

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this? I can imagine somebody is getting told off.

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This morning, are adoptive parents being failed?

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Failed because they're not given the full picture of the trauma

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and damage their child has already experienced, failed because there

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isn't enough support when things go wrong,

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and failed because schools can't always cope with

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Throughout the programme today, we'll hear from families who've

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adopted and are struggling, and some who've had to make

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the agonising decision to hand back their child.

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Adoption UK estimate around a quarter of adoptive families

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are "in crisis" and finding it hard to keep their family together.

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A generation or so ago most children who were adopted were those born

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outside of marriage or to teenage mums, whereas now it's more likely

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they'll have been born to a mum addicted to drugs or alcohol,

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or will have witnessed domestic violence or trauma.

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Those early formative few months and years can have a huge impact

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on the child as they grow up, causing untold problems.

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Now, an Adoption Support Fund which was meant to help pay

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for intensive and expensive therapy has been capped.

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Our reporter Lesley Ashmal has been looking what happens

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I'd always wanted to adopt children, even if I'd had my own.

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You just feel that it's been made that much harder, A,

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by the training you have to go through to be adoptive

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parents and then, you know, to the point that you don't get

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the help and support that you should have.

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It felt like failure, it felt like letting this kid down.

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And how can you do this to your own son, that you really love?

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It's hard to imagine what it must be like to give

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Parents could have fought for years for them.

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To become an adoptive parent you have undergone rigorous tests,

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But often the real challenge begins when the match is approved.

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Adoption breakdown - or disruption, as it's sometimes called -

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happens when a child either goes back into care or leaves

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One adoption charity thinks as many as a quarter

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of all families are in crisis, needing help to keep

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But they are often struggling to get the help they need.

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Rob, which isn't his real name, and his wife have

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children of their own, but they adopted three siblings.

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The reports warned the eldest had problems but nothing prepared

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She got kicked, thumped, things like that, quite a lot.

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And quite a lot of emotional abuse to her as well.

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Yeah, and this is from a four, five-year-old kid.

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And we were just shell-shocked, really.

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What was the trauma like on you and your wife?

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Well, my wife really shows the sort of symptoms you'd expect

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from someone who's suffered domestic abuse at times.

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I mean, it's clear that it's still so raw.

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I ended up with quite serious depression.

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I almost got sacked because I was taking a lot

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of time off work with, you know, just dealing

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And, yeah, very close to a breakdown, I think.

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He just became untenable, which was why we finally had to ask

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the local authority to step in and move him back

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For us, you know, it felt like failure, it felt

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And how can you do this to your own son, that you really love?

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It was, you know, a heartbreaking decision.

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His adoptive son had lived with them for nine years.

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It's not known how many adoptions break down,

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no national records are kept, but the estimated figure varies

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from just over 3.2% to, according to one charity, nearly 9%.

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It's known that children who are adopted when they are older

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than four are 13 times more likely to struggle in a new family.

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Professor Julie Selwyn has written the definitive research

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It's whether they want to be adopted, if they are older,

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and how long they've been exposed to adversity in their life.

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I suppose what they've learned is that adults aren't very caring,

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that adults can't meet their needs, and they find it's difficult

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Liz, which isn't her real name, adopted two sisters.

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The eldest was nine and never really settled into a new family.

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The anger was just off the scale sometimes.

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It was physical, it became physical, initially it was verbal abuse.

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It was just a whole catalogue of not just bad behaviour,

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and I appreciate what you have to try to do as an adoptive parent

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is try and sort of differentiate what is normal teenager behaviour

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and what is a result of where they've come from.

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It affects every aspect of your life, it's not just

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within your little unit, it's beyond that.

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It can be work, the effects on your work.

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I lost my business, had to give up my business because the stress

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And, in a way, you sort of feel a bit of bitterness.

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Not towards the daughter, but because of the whole

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This is when the older daughter, when she first came,

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and we felt it was important to keep, as they changed through

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Are you optimistic that maybe in several years' time things

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will resolve itself, maybe there'll be

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I mean, we've already got a grandchild.

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We haven't got that yet because we need to get...

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We're going to get a nice professional photograph done,

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so that can be part of the family photos.

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Liz's daughter is now 18 and a mother herself.

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She still calls her adoptive parents mum and dad,

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It was difficult because it was a change, do you know what I mean,

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and was a change that I'd never had before, especially when

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So it was different, and that's what made it difficult,

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You know, you don't know what to expect, really,

:23:03.:23:08.

Because you're still a child, you're still, you know...

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It was just strange on the parent side, because you've got

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new parents, and that's a weird feeling, like.

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Because things did go wrong, didn't they?

:23:18.:23:21.

Yeah. It was mainly my adoptive mum.

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My adoptive daddy works a lot and my little sister,

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she was in nursery and primary school.

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We clashed a bit because I didn't really let go of what I do

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remember as a child, my first six years

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And, obviously, for her that was hard, for me not

:23:39.:23:43.

That was, you know, that was the main reason why we did clash.

:23:44.:23:51.

Do you think you were badly behaved sometimes?

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Obviously I was, most children are, you know, at times.

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She might have thought I was a nightmare sometimes,

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The children that I see around me, I see now as an adult

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Do you know what I mean, I wasn't awful, I didn't go

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round burning buildings or nothing like that, you know what I'm

:24:13.:24:15.

There are about 87,000 children in care in the UK.

:24:16.:24:25.

Those who've no chance of returning to their birth families can be

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Every year, about 5500 are successfully placed.

:24:29.:24:37.

They've usually been abused, neglected.

:24:38.:24:41.

And a whole range of abuse, from physical abuse,

:24:42.:24:43.

Often their mums have misused alcohol or drugs during pregnancy

:24:44.:24:59.

so that they are born withdrawing from drugs at the time

:25:00.:25:01.

And that's obviously going to have an impact

:25:02.:25:04.

on their relationship with their new adoptive parents?

:25:05.:25:06.

Professor Selwyn says specialist therapy is needed for youngsters

:25:07.:25:09.

So how do you think this story is going to end?

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And how do you think it's going to end?

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Catchpoint is such a place, helping both children and parents adjust.

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We start from the point of view of working with the parents

:25:31.:25:33.

We want to have an attachment to focus.

:25:34.:25:37.

We don't want the children to form an attachment to the therapist,

:25:38.:25:40.

we want them to form an attachment to their parents.

:25:41.:25:44.

So what we set up at Catchpoint is we're supporting the parents

:25:45.:25:50.

as well as including them in the therapy.

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I think without the therapy I personally would be

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I would be, I think, forced to look at and use other

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parenting techniques which are just

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And will quite possibly make things worse.

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The trouble is specialist therapy like this is expensive.

:26:29.:26:31.

England has the Adoption Support Fund.

:26:32.:26:34.

In its first year it helped 3500 families,

:26:35.:26:35.

But demand has been so high the fund's now been capped

:26:36.:26:46.

These parents wrote to us about their fears.

:26:47.:27:04.

We've two adopted children who were traumatised.

:27:05.:27:06.

And the Adoption Support Fund has been a lifeline to us.

:27:07.:27:09.

Without the therapy it's paid for, our family

:27:10.:27:11.

The therapy has actually given us hope, but we're only starting

:27:12.:27:15.

to scratch the surface and the funding cap has

:27:16.:27:17.

Our two adopted children have been diagnosed

:27:18.:27:21.

A therapy plan was put together, but in November we were told

:27:22.:27:25.

about the new funding cap and it may not even cover the cost

:27:26.:27:28.

The therapy for our children will cost about ?30,000.

:27:29.:27:32.

If they don't get help now, it could be too late.

:27:33.:27:44.

Many interventions for these children need a lot more

:27:45.:27:46.

This is therapy that needs to be ongoing and will cost

:27:47.:27:54.

Particularly for these children, who've got very entrenched

:27:55.:28:00.

The Government stresses it is committed to helping

:28:01.:28:08.

vulnerable children and their adoptive parents.

:28:09.:28:15.

They declined to be interviewed but issued this statement,

:28:16.:28:17.

"We want more families to benefit from The Adoption Support Fund,

:28:18.:28:20.

which is why we're looking at how we can distribute it more fairly

:28:21.:28:23.

We plan to increase the fund's budget every

:28:24.:28:26.

Everyone says adoptions are far, far better for children

:28:27.:28:36.

than remaining in care, and most adoptions are successful.

:28:37.:28:38.

Those who've suffered simply want a more help for people like them.

:28:39.:28:46.

The pain of adoption breakdown is so vivid in this letter Rob

:28:47.:28:50.

wrote to his young son who was returned to care.

:28:51.:28:53.

It was too painful for him to read himself, so his words

:28:54.:28:56.

I really want you to know that, as I'd guess that sometimes it's

:28:57.:29:07.

I want you to know that I'm there, fighting for you as hard as I can.

:29:08.:29:14.

I don't know how much you remember of your early days with us.

:29:15.:29:17.

I remember that you didn't want me in your life at all.

:29:18.:29:20.

I remember the first time that you ever let me hug you.

:29:21.:29:24.

You'd been with us for over seven months and not let me hug you.

:29:25.:29:27.

I remember that so clearly, because I love you, kid.

:29:28.:29:34.

We had such hopes of what we could give,

:29:35.:29:38.

The saddest bit for me is that we gave everything

:29:39.:29:52.

that we had, but the people that we thought were going to be

:29:53.:29:55.

backing us up and giving the bits that we couldn't,

:29:56.:29:57.

If you've adopted a child, do get in touch with your experience.

:29:58.:30:15.

Positive or otherwise. Particularly if you had problems what was it that

:30:16.:30:23.

helped overcome those problems? It is clearly, as we saw from the

:30:24.:30:28.

film, really, really hard adopting a child from a damaged background. If

:30:29.:30:33.

a child is taken from their birth family then more often than not it

:30:34.:30:36.

is because there are some damaging circumstances in which they're being

:30:37.:30:39.

brought up. After 10am we will look at the cut

:30:40.:30:43.

to the Oi doption Support Fund and what impact it could have on

:30:44.:30:45.

families in need. If you want to read more about it,

:30:46.:30:49.

there's a BBC News article Chris Akabusi has got in touch, he

:30:50.:30:52.

was brought up in care, he says... This tweet says, it is modern

:30:53.:31:13.

adoption, the young person... It says, we kept strong as a couple

:31:14.:31:44.

and remained firm with the system. We are now happy to have our amazing

:31:45.:31:49.

son. To get in touch in the usual ways, we will feed your pertinent

:31:50.:31:53.

experiences into the conversation after 10am.

:31:54.:31:55.

This baby chimp has been rescued after traffickers tried

:31:56.:31:58.

We'll bring you full details of our investigation

:31:59.:32:01.

into the illegal trade in baby chimpanzees.

:32:02.:32:10.

That film is amazing, in the next few minutes.

:32:11.:32:14.

Asylum seekers are being housed in dirty, rat-infested homes

:32:15.:32:16.

in the UK, conditions which have been described as

:32:17.:32:19.

We'll be talking to the chair of the committee

:32:20.:32:22.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:32:23.:32:31.

President Trump has fired the Acting US Attorney General, saying she had

:32:32.:32:34.

betrayed her department by refusing to enforce his travel ban for seven

:32:35.:32:37.

Sally Yates had told her lawyers not defend the executive order

:32:38.:32:44.

he signed on Friday, as it might not be legal.

:32:45.:32:47.

Ms Yates had been appointed by President Obama.

:32:48.:32:49.

Mr Trump said his opponents in the Democratic Party

:32:50.:32:51.

Meanwhile, a former head of the Foreign Office has accused

:32:52.:32:55.

Theresa May of putting the Queen in "a very difficult position"

:32:56.:32:57.

by inviting President Trump to make a state visit to the UK.

:32:58.:33:00.

Lord Ricketts said it should be downgraded to an official visit

:33:01.:33:03.

Thousands of people joined anti-Trump protests in London

:33:04.:33:09.

A petition calling for his trip to be cancelled has gathered more

:33:10.:33:14.

A French-Canadian student has appeared in court in Quebec,

:33:15.:33:20.

charged with the murder of six Muslim worshippers who were shot

:33:21.:33:24.

Alexandre Bissonnette, who's 27, did not speak

:33:25.:33:28.

He faces six counts of murder and five of attempted murder.

:33:29.:33:34.

Vigils have been held across Canada in memory

:33:35.:33:36.

MPs will today hold their first debate on the Government's bill

:33:37.:33:41.

to trigger the formal process of leaving the EU.

:33:42.:33:45.

The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has given his party strict orders

:33:46.:33:48.

to support the measure, but some Labour MPs have said

:33:49.:33:50.

they will join the SNP in voting against it.

:33:51.:33:55.

A legal battle over the rights of parents to take their children

:33:56.:33:58.

on term-time holidays reaches the Supreme Court today.

:33:59.:34:02.

Five judges will hear an appeal by Isle of Wight Council,

:34:03.:34:05.

which fined a father, Jon Platt, for taking his daughter

:34:06.:34:07.

to Florida without her school's permission.

:34:08.:34:10.

Mr Platt challenged his fine in the High Court and won.

:34:11.:34:18.

We will hear from him and other parents and teachers affected at

:34:19.:34:22.

around 10:30am. Peter Capaldi is stepping

:34:23.:34:24.

down from the role of He shocked fans by making

:34:25.:34:26.

the announcement during an interview The actor, who has been

:34:27.:34:29.

in the role since 2013, That's a summary of

:34:30.:34:33.

the latest BBC News. More comments, emotional watching

:34:34.:34:51.

about adoption breakdown. This e-mail, we have had our adoptive son

:34:52.:34:55.

for two years, it was very challenging for the beginning but

:34:56.:34:59.

now he has adapted to us fantastically, our relationship

:35:00.:35:02.

feels so natural, sometimes we forget he is not our natural son.

:35:03.:35:05.

John Watson is here again now with the morning's sport headlines.

:35:06.:35:07.

Two non-league sides into the fifth round for the first time

:35:08.:35:10.

One of those, Sutton United, have been rewarded with a dream tie

:35:11.:35:14.

This was the moment they found out who they will be facing.

:35:15.:35:18.

Arsenal and their superstars making the trip to Gander Green Lane, where

:35:19.:35:21.

5,000 the capacity, 55,000 less than the Emirates.

:35:22.:35:31.

Lincoln's reward for beating Brighton of the Championship

:35:32.:35:33.

is a tie away to Burnley of the Premier League.

:35:34.:35:35.

The side who top the National League were 3-1 winners last weekend.

:35:36.:35:39.

The January transfer window closes at 11pm tonight with Premier League

:35:40.:35:42.

spending expected to surpass the record from January 2011.

:35:43.:35:46.

The biggest deal so far is that of Dimitri Payet,

:35:47.:35:49.

who has moved from West Ham to Marseille for ?25 million.

:35:50.:35:52.

But with plenty of time left for deals to be done today,

:35:53.:35:55.

And, England received a boost ahead of their defence of the Six Nations,

:35:56.:36:02.

with prop Joe Marler set for a comeback for the

:36:03.:36:05.

grand-slam champions against France on Saturday.

:36:06.:36:11.

It's about a secret network of wildlife traffickers

:36:12.:36:21.

selling baby chimpanzees - a network finally exposed

:36:22.:36:24.

after a year-long BBC News investigation.

:36:25.:36:32.

The tiny, charming, adorable creatures are seized

:36:33.:36:35.

Two suspected animal smugglers have been arrested in Ivory Coast.

:36:36.:36:44.

Our science editor David Shukman uncovered a notorious West African

:36:45.:36:47.

hub for wildlife trafficking, known as the "blue room",

:36:48.:36:51.

and led to the rescue of a one-year-old chimp

:36:52.:36:55.

Captured from a jungle in West Africa.

:36:56.:37:11.

Orphaned after poachers killed its family, and now

:37:12.:37:14.

Chimps are in danger, so exporting them is illegal.

:37:15.:37:24.

But they are so adorable, they are wanted as pets

:37:25.:37:27.

During a year-long investigation, we were sent these videos by dealers

:37:28.:37:36.

offering to sell the tiny animals for about ?10,000 each.

:37:37.:37:43.

The chimps are destined for a life of captivity

:37:44.:37:46.

It's a cruel trade, and we've worked to expose it.

:37:47.:38:01.

Our research led us to Ivory Coast, and a secret

:38:02.:38:04.

We got in touch with a dealer called Ibrahima Traore.

:38:05.:38:15.

He sent us a video of a crate specially made

:38:16.:38:17.

He'd use animals you are allowed to export to provide cover

:38:18.:38:23.

He then met a colleague of ours who was pretending to be a buyer,

:38:24.:38:42.

Ibrahima spelled out his prices in dollars.

:38:43.:39:33.

Then we had to wait for the deal itself.

:39:34.:39:37.

While we negotiated over social media.

:39:38.:40:01.

This video confirmed that he had a chimpanzee ready for export.

:40:02.:40:05.

The recording used our fake name and the correct date.

:40:06.:40:16.

Ibrahima even showed his face on camera,

:40:17.:40:19.

Apparently not worried about incriminating himself.

:40:20.:40:24.

Our undercover team got ready to see the chimp for themselves.

:40:25.:40:34.

But we weren't going into this alone.

:40:35.:40:39.

We briefed Interpol and the police in Ivory Coast,

:40:40.:40:41.

Our undercover journalist was going to meet Ibrahima to see

:40:42.:40:50.

the animal before confirming the deal, and we were following.

:40:51.:40:59.

Our undercover colleague is in a car in front of us,

:41:00.:41:12.

and he's following the dealer in a taxi who's meant to be

:41:13.:41:15.

leading him to his house where the chimpanzees are.

:41:16.:41:19.

We are in convoy with the police, and we are told it'll be about 30

:41:20.:41:23.

This was the pivotal moment in the investigation,

:41:24.:41:33.

If we got too close, we risked being seen.

:41:34.:41:39.

A tracking device helped to guide us along a highway.

:41:40.:42:06.

A call from our undercover team ahead of us.

:42:07.:42:09.

We were leaving the highway and heading into a maze of dusty

:42:10.:42:12.

Using a hidden camera, our undercover colleague filmed his

:42:13.:42:27.

His cover story was that he needed proof for a client in Indonesia.

:42:28.:42:54.

And everyone there denied knowing anything about it.

:42:55.:43:16.

Detectives charged through the neighbourhood.

:43:17.:43:41.

Minutes later, the police got their man.

:43:42.:43:59.

He is facing charges related to wildlife trafficking,

:44:00.:44:14.

along with his uncle, Mohammed.

:44:15.:44:17.

The police then focused on his family's house.

:44:18.:44:20.

And a search led them to a small room, where they found a crate

:44:21.:44:34.

So the police have just made all of these arrests.

:44:35.:44:50.

It's pretty edgy here, the atmosphere, and

:44:51.:44:52.

A baby chimpanzee taken from the jungle.

:44:53.:44:56.

The real tragedy of this trade is that to get one infant

:44:57.:45:00.

chimpanzee out of the jungle, all of the adults in its family have

:45:01.:45:03.

to be killed, that's as many as ten adults slaughtered just to get one

:45:04.:45:07.

We'd been advised not to touch the chimp until

:45:08.:45:24.

So, for a few agonising moments, he was all alone.

:45:25.:45:48.

The police then made a major discovery.

:45:49.:45:53.

That this house was a key centre of chimpanzee trafficking.

:45:54.:46:00.

For years, when investigators have been looking for clues

:46:01.:46:04.

about smuggled chimpanzees, they've often seen these blue tiles

:46:05.:46:06.

in the background of the videos offered by the traders.

:46:07.:46:08.

Well, this is it, what everyone calls the blue room.

:46:09.:46:11.

It's like a holding centre for animals on their way

:46:12.:46:13.

The chimpanzee was taken away into the care of wildlife officials.

:46:14.:46:32.

Many here were beginning to take the side of the men

:46:33.:46:42.

The atmosphere was becoming more tense.

:46:43.:46:51.

The police told us that we all had to go.

:46:52.:46:57.

In the back of a car, the baby chimp watched nervously.

:46:58.:47:01.

A new chapter in his short life was about to begin.

:47:02.:47:10.

Hungry but safe at the zoo in Abidjan.

:47:11.:47:13.

The keepers gave him a name, Nembly Junior.

:47:14.:47:16.

The trauma he's been through May have caused lasting damage.

:47:17.:47:27.

Will Travers is here, the president of the Born Free Foundation,

:47:28.:47:30.

an international charity which campaigns to protect

:47:31.:47:32.

What do you think? Well, it is a shocking report. Well done, David.

:47:33.:47:43.

Well done the authorities for bringing this to the world's

:47:44.:47:47.

attention. It is something which has been bubbling around for a long

:47:48.:47:50.

time, but it never got this airspace before and it is a big trade. It is

:47:51.:47:54.

not an isolated incident. This isn't one chimpanzee. Official estimates

:47:55.:47:59.

about 400 chimpanzees have been trafficked since 2005 and if that

:48:00.:48:02.

statistic that David gave us, ten dead for every one that makes it,

:48:03.:48:07.

that's 4,000 chimpanzees that have been killed to traffic those 400.

:48:08.:48:12.

David, referred at the end to, you know, lasting trauma on this

:48:13.:48:17.

chimpanzee because of what it had experienced. What, you know, what

:48:18.:48:23.

sort of impact will that have on a chimpanzee, it sounds bizarre saying

:48:24.:48:28.

it like that, it will, won't it? We watched the film and we see an

:48:29.:48:31.

almost little human being and we imagine the trauma that animal may

:48:32.:48:35.

have suffered and maybe seeing his entire family wiped out. There are

:48:36.:48:40.

specialist sanctuaries in Africa that specialise in chimpanzees and

:48:41.:48:44.

they know what to do, this isn't a unique occurrence, but it is hard to

:48:45.:48:47.

imagine how much that little baby has suffered. How many chimps are

:48:48.:48:52.

left in the wild now, do we know? Between 300,000 and 400,000. It is

:48:53.:48:55.

difficult to get estimates. That number is going down? That number is

:48:56.:49:03.

in decomplain, all the great apes are in decline except for the great

:49:04.:49:08.

mountain gorilla. What can we do? I'm sickened by what we see on

:49:09.:49:13.

Instagram, where we see people having photographs taken by an

:49:14.:49:16.

exotic animal. Don't do that. That's is a way that the traffickers

:49:17.:49:20.

eventually earn money, by charging people for those photographs and

:49:21.:49:24.

secondly, we've got to get to grips with illegal trade. They need the

:49:25.:49:33.

resources to tackle this issue. Is that cash from governments, from

:49:34.:49:36.

charities, what? Yes, it is cash, sort of cash from anywhere, but what

:49:37.:49:42.

they need to do, I believe, is to know trade and chimpanzees and in

:49:43.:49:47.

endangered species should take place even if it is from zoo to zoo unless

:49:48.:49:53.

it is personally investigated and awe then ti kates the permits and

:49:54.:49:56.

certificates involved. Thank you very much. Thank you. My

:49:57.:50:02.

pleasure. Will Travers president of the Born Free Foundation.

:50:03.:50:07.

On Monday we're holding a special programme looking

:50:08.:50:09.

We'll be looking at the problems it's facing and asking

:50:10.:50:13.

If you work in the NHS - a doctor, a nurse or a consultant -

:50:14.:50:20.

or you're a patient with recent experience, we'd love you to take

:50:21.:50:22.

It's in central London on Monday, 6th February.

:50:23.:50:34.

E-mail [email protected] to register your interest and one

:50:35.:50:36.

Asylum seekers are being housed in rat-infested homes in the UK,

:50:37.:50:41.

conditions which have been described as "disgraceful" by MPs.

:50:42.:50:49.

These pictures are from Glasgow and they have been provided to us by the

:50:50.:50:56.

Scottish Refugee Council show some examples of what the MPs are talking

:50:57.:51:01.

about. The politicians' report

:51:02.:51:04.

focuses on accommodation The accommodation we're showing you

:51:05.:51:17.

now is provided by a different company.

:51:18.:51:19.

We were invited to view G4S homes in Sheffield.

:51:20.:51:21.

The company chose to let us in, so they obviously chose one

:51:22.:51:24.

The homes we were shown, which were for men only,

:51:25.:51:27.

housed about five people from countries including Sudan,

:51:28.:51:29.

As part of G4S' contract with the Government,

:51:30.:51:32.

the company is supposed to provide safe, habitable accommodation -

:51:33.:51:40.

but the report after a year-long investigation cited G4S as one

:51:41.:51:42.

of the poorer providers of housing, and our reporter Chi Chi Izundu put

:51:43.:51:45.

some of the report's findings to one of its senior staff.

:51:46.:51:48.

We have a cleaning contractor who cleans properties for us.

:51:49.:51:51.

Every single day they are going into properties to clean them.

:51:52.:51:53.

The service users who live in the properties also

:51:54.:51:56.

have a responsibility to keep the properties clean.

:51:57.:52:01.

And we go over and beyond in that respect to give them cleaning

:52:02.:52:04.

products, so that's not part of our contract but we do that.

:52:05.:52:12.

But what is down to G4S and what is part of your contract

:52:13.:52:15.

is you guys are supposed to provide furnished living.

:52:16.:52:17.

In some cases cited in this report, people didn't have beds,

:52:18.:52:20.

they were given a mattress and that's it.

:52:21.:52:24.

There was a case where a young woman was given a baby's cot frame,

:52:25.:52:27.

Some of the comments that have been made in the report are anecdotal,

:52:28.:52:35.

we don't have clear information around those particular cases.

:52:36.:52:48.

I would say to you that if anybody rings in to complain about issues

:52:49.:52:51.

such as a lack of bedding or, like you say, cots that are not

:52:52.:52:54.

properly equipped, then we would be addressing that immediately.

:52:55.:52:56.

I think the vulnerable people that have lived in these properties,

:52:57.:52:59.

when they've complained to your service centres,

:53:00.:53:01.

There's even a quote saying "If you do this, it will backfire,"

:53:02.:53:05.

Absolutely, and I don't recognise that.

:53:06.:53:08.

I am in that service centre every single week,

:53:09.:53:11.

If I ever heard anybody talking in that way then there would be

:53:12.:53:18.

an investigation to find out exactly what the content of that

:53:19.:53:21.

conversation was, but I do not recognise the quote

:53:22.:53:23.

G4S' managing director for immigration and borders

:53:24.:53:35.

As well as the Labour MP Yvette Cooper who's in charge

:53:36.:53:43.

of a group of Mps who've been looking into the issue.

:53:44.:53:46.

And from Middlesbrough, we have Joel Mebara who spent time

:53:47.:53:48.

living in a G4S property whilst he was an asylum seeker -

:53:49.:53:51.

Joel now has refugee status and no longer lives in a G4S property.

:53:52.:53:54.

Good morning. Thank you for coming on the programme. Would you live in

:53:55.:53:58.

a house infested with rats, mice and bed bugs? No, of course, I wouldn't.

:53:59.:54:01.

Why do you expect other people to do that then? I don't. I'm responsible

:54:02.:54:03.

for 4,000 properties in our contract areas, it covers the Midlands and

:54:04.:54:07.

the north-east of England. Across those 4,000 properties they are

:54:08.:54:10.

regularly inspected. I think it was the Chief Executive of Serco who

:54:11.:54:14.

described these as the most inspected properties. Does that mean

:54:15.:54:18.

the inspectors are missing the rats and the mice and the bed bugs? Every

:54:19.:54:23.

year we conduct 50,000 inspections and top of those inspections the

:54:24.:54:28.

Home Office inspection team conducts a further 1500. What point are you

:54:29.:54:34.

making? There are some houses with rats and mice and bed bugs in? Every

:54:35.:54:39.

time we have an inspection That's one heck of a defect, is it? Isn't

:54:40.:54:46.

it? Of those things that need to be addressed, 3,000 are phoned through

:54:47.:54:50.

from the asylum seekers, the rest we find from our own inspections and

:54:51.:54:53.

every time there is an issue, be it a bed bug or need for additional

:54:54.:54:58.

bedding or a blocked drain, we address them. The issue is not the

:54:59.:55:01.

fact that things go wrong in a house, they go wrong in my house,

:55:02.:55:05.

they go wrong in every house, but the requirement we have to address

:55:06.:55:11.

them which we do. Yvette Cooper, do talk to him. We heard evidence from

:55:12.:55:15.

the providers about what they were doing, the problem is we also heard

:55:16.:55:20.

just too many stories from all over the country about the kinds of

:55:21.:55:22.

things that you talked about, whether that was about rodents or

:55:23.:55:26.

the bed bugs or about unclean conditions. Now, I'm sure there are

:55:27.:55:31.

some excellent examples of very good accommodation being provided, but

:55:32.:55:35.

when you have so many examples that we were hearing of just awful

:55:36.:55:39.

conditions and particularly for pregnant women or for people who

:55:40.:55:43.

have been victims of torture, I think it is just a disgrace that

:55:44.:55:45.

anybody should have to live in conditions like that. And I think

:55:46.:55:49.

that the problem for us is we heard a lot of evidence about that there

:55:50.:55:53.

are lots and lots of inspections happening, they're not dealing with

:55:54.:55:59.

those problems. Therefore, our recommendation was that the

:56:00.:56:01.

inspection regime should be passed over to local authorities so they

:56:02.:56:04.

can do the inspections instead. Are you inspecting your own properties?

:56:05.:56:08.

We inspect our properties and the Home Office inspect our properties

:56:09.:56:11.

and the Home Office have an inspection regime. Last year over

:56:12.:56:15.

550 inspections took place from local authorities. Each one of those

:56:16.:56:18.

inspections had a list of defects, a defect might be that an individual

:56:19.:56:21.

needed medical treatment. It might be that there was a blocked

:56:22.:56:26.

lavatory. Whatever they find, it is our obligation to address it and we

:56:27.:56:33.

do so and so I think there are about 107,000 defects ranging from large

:56:34.:56:36.

and serious to small, all of which were addressed. So they are all

:56:37.:56:42.

addressed, Yvette Cooper? That's not what we found. There is a reality

:56:43.:56:47.

gap here. Asylum seekers were saying, I have complained about it.

:56:48.:56:52.

I can't stop crying and I can't eat because of the mouldy smell. I'm

:56:53.:56:55.

five months pregnant and I'm scared I will have to raise my child in

:56:56.:57:00.

this way with dirt and vermin. I feel anything could happen. What you

:57:01.:57:06.

also get is people who are afraid to complain because they're afraid that

:57:07.:57:09.

somehow maybe if they complain about the accommodation well that will

:57:10.:57:14.

affect their asylum claim or are just worried or don't know what the

:57:15.:57:17.

system is for raising complaints and concerns. So you've got to have that

:57:18.:57:21.

additional support in place as well. But I think, look, the sense that we

:57:22.:57:26.

had is for all of this talk about the number of inspections and the

:57:27.:57:29.

number of problems that are being solved, we just found too many cases

:57:30.:57:33.

where it just wasn't working and that is the problem when you've got

:57:34.:57:37.

vulnerable people being left living in these conditions. If I can

:57:38.:57:42.

address the point of access to complaints. I'm not sure of contact

:57:43.:57:47.

from the asylum seekers. Over 3,000 people will call our free helpline

:57:48.:57:51.

this month. Yesterday, we had a call from somebody who had a chip pan so

:57:52.:57:56.

we are relocating those individuals. The evidence is that asylum seekers

:57:57.:58:00.

are prepared to make contact with us and remember as well as having a G4S

:58:01.:58:04.

welfare officer, they have a dedicated Home Office case worker

:58:05.:58:09.

who looks after their asylum claimment I have no influence or

:58:10.:58:14.

interest in the application which the asylum seekers have as to

:58:15.:58:17.

whether or not they are agranted asylum is not anything to do with

:58:18.:58:22.

the providers such as G4S or Serbing co, it is the Home Office. Snaou

:58:23.:58:26.

know that and I know that, but for a lot of them they don't know that and

:58:27.:58:29.

they're fearful and that's the problem and I think the other thing

:58:30.:58:32.

is you talked about the number of complaints and so on that you've

:58:33.:58:36.

had, well, there are obviously a lot of other cases that are never making

:58:37.:58:39.

it to complaints in the first place, so you're dealing with a high level

:58:40.:58:44.

of complaints, and that in itself should raise concern about what is

:58:45.:58:47.

happening and about the sort of standard of accommodation and

:58:48.:58:51.

whether it is reaching the high enough standards in enough places, I

:58:52.:58:54.

don't doubt that there are some very good levels of acam dougs. I'm

:58:55.:58:58.

fearful that there are too many examples of just really unfit and

:58:59.:59:01.

unfair accommodation that people are being put in. It sounds like you're

:59:02.:59:06.

rejecting that? I'm saying that all of the accommodation which we have

:59:07.:59:11.

is given to us by landlords. Local authorities have to give us

:59:12.:59:17.

permission to take this property. I am inspected by the Home Office and

:59:18.:59:21.

by the local authority. Where there is fault I must mend it. Where the

:59:22.:59:27.

asylum seek erases to raise a defect, it is not a complaint, that

:59:28.:59:32.

something has gone wrong with their house as well as my house. Yesterday

:59:33.:59:36.

I received two letters both from MPs from Sheffield asking me toll

:59:37.:59:39.

investigate specific cases which I will.

:59:40.:59:46.

You were an asylum seeker. You have refugee status, tell us about living

:59:47.:59:53.

in G4S accommodation. I have to say the house is in quite poor condition

:59:54.:00:03.

and we sometimes have messy carpet without a hoover to clean it. And

:00:04.:00:12.

the house is full of cockroaches, bed bugs, so it's quite a difficult

:00:13.:00:16.

place to live in. And have you complained? I have complained a few

:00:17.:00:21.

times. What was done? They said they would send someone to

:00:22.:00:35.

look at it, but they never did. I had you talking about inspection. I

:00:36.:00:43.

stayed in a house for two years, I never had an inspection in the house

:00:44.:00:50.

I was living in. Respond to what he said. Very distressing. I would like

:00:51.:00:56.

to have the opportunity to look into this, it is hard for me to pass

:00:57.:01:01.

comment on individual cases. Where there is an issue raised, we have to

:01:02.:01:08.

look into it. Everything is put onto a database that the Home Office

:01:09.:01:14.

addresses. Were I not to meet a defect or a complaint, I would be

:01:15.:01:17.

subject to sanctions from the Home Office. Nobody has done anything

:01:18.:01:23.

there for two years. Rather like with the anecdote and the comments

:01:24.:01:30.

in the report, I am not sure that represents the whole picture. I have

:01:31.:01:36.

over 100 people in his area and into north-east looking after people like

:01:37.:01:40.

him, and they are not businessmen, they full-time professionals, with

:01:41.:01:45.

ten or 20 years experience, and four of our welfare officers are

:01:46.:01:50.

themselves asylum seekers, so when the team visited Sheffield is today,

:01:51.:01:55.

they had the chance to talk about -- to talk to one of our officers, an

:01:56.:02:00.

asylum seeker. It sounds like Lionel. I do not put all of the

:02:01.:02:05.

responsibility on you, because I think there are problems in the

:02:06.:02:09.

contracting system come at the Home Office has to take responsibility.

:02:10.:02:13.

But it has been too easy, whether it is for the BBC, for us or for other

:02:14.:02:18.

people, to find so many cases where the standards are not being met, so

:02:19.:02:23.

something is not working, whether it is in your inspection system or the

:02:24.:02:26.

Home Office system or the way in which the accommodation has been

:02:27.:02:28.

provided. The latest news and sport in a

:02:29.:02:35.

moment. First, the weather. A cloudy day, with rain moving from

:02:36.:02:47.

the West towards the east. It will be on and off through the course of

:02:48.:02:53.

the day, and cloud in between, dampness and drizzle. The sunshine

:02:54.:02:56.

will be at a premium, but the best place is in Northern Ireland. It

:02:57.:03:01.

will brighten up, with just a few showers. It is mild for the West and

:03:02.:03:09.

south. Through the evening and overnight, rain will push over

:03:10.:03:12.

England and Wales, hitting across southern parts of Scotland. Some

:03:13.:03:17.

clear skies across Scotland and Northern Ireland. We could see a

:03:18.:03:20.

small touch of Frost, nothing too substantial. Tomorrow, we start with

:03:21.:03:27.

this rain moving off into the North Sea. Behind, a veil of cloud, but

:03:28.:03:32.

some will break through the day. Sunshine will come through, before

:03:33.:03:35.

the next band of patchy rain and a strengthening wind from the

:03:36.:03:36.

north-west. Hello, it's Tuesday, 10am,

:03:37.:03:41.

I'm Victoria Derbyshire. Thousands of children

:03:42.:03:44.

are successfully adopted each year, but a small number of cases

:03:45.:03:47.

tragically end in failure. We hear why some adoptive parents

:03:48.:03:50.

return their child into care. For us, you know, it

:03:51.:03:55.

felt like failure. And how can you do this to your own

:03:56.:03:57.

son, that you really love? We'll also look at the capping

:03:58.:04:08.

of the Adoption Support Fund and what impact it could have

:04:09.:04:11.

on families in need. Also today, this baby chimp has been

:04:12.:04:15.

rescued after traffickers tried We'll bring you a special report

:04:16.:04:24.

from the BBC's year-long investigation into the selling

:04:25.:04:31.

of baby chimps, the killing of their families and the arrests

:04:32.:04:33.

of the traffickers involved. Detectives charged to the

:04:34.:04:48.

neighbourhood. They called on local people to help. Minutes later, the

:04:49.:04:55.

police got their man. They have got him? They have got him.

:04:56.:05:01.

And, should parents be able to take their children out

:05:02.:05:03.

One father who did just that tells us why he feels

:05:04.:05:07.

he did nothing wrong, as we await a Supreme Court

:05:08.:05:10.

ruling on his actions in the next half an hour.

:05:11.:05:19.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:05:20.:05:24.

President Trump has said he sacked the acting US

:05:25.:05:26.

Attorney General because she had betrayed her department

:05:27.:05:29.

by refusing to enforce his new immigration rules.

:05:30.:05:32.

Sally Yates, who was appointed by President Obama, had ordered

:05:33.:05:35.

lawyers not to enforce the ban on people entering America

:05:36.:05:39.

She said she was not convinced it was lawful.

:05:40.:05:45.

A former head of the Foreign Office has accused Theresa May of putting

:05:46.:05:48.

the Queen in "a very difficult position" by inviting

:05:49.:05:50.

President Trump to make a state visit to the UK.

:05:51.:05:53.

Lord Ricketts said it should be downgraded to an official visit

:05:54.:05:56.

Thousands of people joined anti-Trump protests in London

:05:57.:06:01.

A petition calling for his trip to be cancelled has gathered more

:06:02.:06:06.

A French-Canadian student has appeared in court in Quebec,

:06:07.:06:13.

charged with the murder of six Muslim worshippers who were shot

:06:14.:06:16.

Alexandre Bissonnette, who's 27, did not speak

:06:17.:06:20.

He faces six counts of murder and five of attempted murder.

:06:21.:06:26.

Vigils have been held across Canada in memory

:06:27.:06:28.

Adoption organisations have told this programme that a cap on funding

:06:29.:06:38.

for specialist therapy could lead to a rise in the number

:06:39.:06:41.

The Adoption Support Fund, which provides financial help

:06:42.:06:44.

for therapy, was capped last October to ?5,000 per child.

:06:45.:06:50.

Agencies are concerned that without sufficient funds to help

:06:51.:06:52.

children from disadvantaged backgrounds, families

:06:53.:06:54.

And we'll be hearing from some of those affected by the change

:06:55.:07:00.

to the Adoption Support Fund in just a few minutes' time.

:07:01.:07:04.

A legal battle over the rights of parents to take their children

:07:05.:07:07.

on term-time holidays reaches the Supreme Court Five

:07:08.:07:09.

judges will hear an appeal by Isle of Wight Council,

:07:10.:07:12.

which fined a father, Jon Platt, for taking his daughter to Florida

:07:13.:07:14.

Mr Platt challenged his fine in the High Court, and won.

:07:15.:07:24.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

:07:25.:07:26.

We will talk more about adoption in the next few minutes, do get in

:07:27.:07:35.

touch. If you text, you will be charged

:07:36.:07:36.

at the standard network rate. I want positive experiences as well

:07:37.:07:46.

as problems and how you have worked through them or perhaps not.

:07:47.:07:49.

John Watson is back now with more from the BBC Sport Centre.

:07:50.:07:53.

Two non-league sides into the fifth round of the FA Cup for the first

:07:54.:08:01.

time. Sutton United and Lincoln City have both been rewarded with some

:08:02.:08:05.

impressive ties in the fifth round. Especially Sutton United, at home

:08:06.:08:09.

against Arsenal, they have won the competition so many times,

:08:10.:08:15.

outstanding award for them. You look at players like Rory Deacon, an

:08:16.:08:21.

ex-Arsenal Ruth Beitia, he still has ambition, and what a dream it is for

:08:22.:08:25.

him to play against his boyhood team. And Lincoln City, no

:08:26.:08:31.

surprises, they did a good job with Brighton at home, and they are going

:08:32.:08:37.

to Burnley. A tough place to play. They have a great record at home

:08:38.:08:41.

this season, Burnley, but they were fancy their chances. What will it be

:08:42.:08:45.

like for the players? Arsenal making the trip to Sutton United, the

:08:46.:08:55.

stadium is 55,000 less than theirs. It is so intimate, we were there a

:08:56.:08:58.

few months ago, it is a great place, a family run club. It has a special

:08:59.:09:04.

feel about it, the team spirit and confidence will be high. It will be

:09:05.:09:08.

difficult for Arsenal to adjust to the pitch and adapt. But I am not

:09:09.:09:16.

sure they will have to much. But what a dream. It is what the FA Cup

:09:17.:09:23.

was crying out for. Transfer deadline day as well, so we could

:09:24.:09:26.

see players on the move, Premier League spending could top record

:09:27.:09:31.

levels in January once again. A lot of movement later? I would think so,

:09:32.:09:36.

a lot of clubs in trouble or wanting to get to the next level, so there

:09:37.:09:41.

will be a lot of activity. It is just waiting for the domino effect

:09:42.:09:46.

to happen. I am looking at Mousa Dembele from Celtic, to potentially

:09:47.:09:52.

tie in for Chelsea. May she batch away could then go to West Ham, who

:09:53.:09:57.

need a striker. That has been the biggest deal so far, Dimitri Payet

:09:58.:10:01.

leaving West Ham for Marseille. They were after him in the summer, he has

:10:02.:10:06.

not played a lot of football, and if that happens, Scott Hogan is not

:10:07.:10:10.

going to West Ham, he might go elsewhere, and there could be a

:10:11.:10:13.

domino effect. I expect a lot of activity. The window closes at 11pm.

:10:14.:10:19.

What is it like if you have been rumoured with a potential move and

:10:20.:10:23.

there is still no guarantee that the move will happen? How unsettling is

:10:24.:10:29.

it? I moved in January once, from QPR to West Ham, it was quite

:10:30.:10:34.

civilised and am quite early, but I can imagine what the players will be

:10:35.:10:37.

going through, with social media and the agents. They must be looking at

:10:38.:10:42.

their phone every five minutes, thinking, have I got the call? You

:10:43.:10:47.

look at Leonardo Ulloa at Leicester City, a breakdown in comedic Asian

:10:48.:10:52.

with the manager. He has not been playing -- a breakdown in

:10:53.:10:58.

communication. It is sad to say that he will not play there again, he

:10:59.:11:02.

will look at that as a mistake. I hope he gets a move, because he

:11:03.:11:08.

looks like a good pro, he wants to play football, and he is not playing

:11:09.:11:12.

at the moment. Is Lance Yamani is their focal point. Plenty of moves

:11:13.:11:20.

still to play. The window closes at 11pm, you can follow it all on

:11:21.:11:22.

social media. This morning, what makes a couple

:11:23.:11:24.

give back an adopted child? There are many complex reasons,

:11:25.:11:28.

not least because a child taken from its birth family will more

:11:29.:11:32.

often than not have experienced But today there are fears that

:11:33.:11:35.

limiting the amount of money available to help families

:11:36.:11:40.

struggling with adopted children could lead to a rise in the number

:11:41.:11:43.

of placements breaking down. The Government have capped

:11:44.:11:47.

the amount of money available via the Adoption Support Fund

:11:48.:11:50.

to ?5,000 per child. That money pays for therapy,

:11:51.:11:55.

intensive therapy needed by children from violent,

:11:56.:12:04.

abusive and disruptive backgrounds. But the therapy can cost

:12:05.:12:07.

a lot more than that. Many families are worried their help

:12:08.:12:10.

and support could be about to stop. We played you Lesley Ashmall's full

:12:11.:12:15.

film earlier in the programme. Adoption breakdown - or disruption,

:12:16.:12:18.

as it's sometimes called - happens when a child either goes

:12:19.:12:25.

back into care or leaves One adoption charity thinks

:12:26.:12:28.

as many as a quarter of all families are in crisis,

:12:29.:12:34.

needing help to keep Rob, which isn't his real

:12:35.:12:38.

name, and his wife have children of their own,

:12:39.:12:47.

but they adopted three siblings. The reports warned the eldest had

:12:48.:12:50.

problems but nothing prepared She got kicked, thumped,

:12:51.:12:54.

things like that, quite a lot. And quite a lot of emotional

:12:55.:13:10.

abuse to her as well. Yeah, and this is from a four,

:13:11.:13:12.

five-year-old kid. And we were just

:13:13.:13:16.

shell-shocked, really. What was the trauma

:13:17.:13:20.

like on you and your wife? Well, my wife really shows the sort

:13:21.:13:24.

of symptoms you'd expect from someone who's suffered domestic

:13:25.:13:28.

abuse at times. He just became untenable,

:13:29.:13:36.

which was why we finally had to ask the local authority to step

:13:37.:13:42.

in and move him back It's not known how many

:13:43.:13:45.

adoptions break down, but the estimated figure varies

:13:46.:13:51.

from just over 3.2% to, Professor Julie Selwyn has written

:13:52.:13:56.

the definitive research It's whether they want to be

:13:57.:14:02.

adopted, if they are older, and how long they've been exposed

:14:03.:14:11.

to adversity in their life. Professor Selwyn says specialist

:14:12.:14:19.

therapy is needed for adopted youngsters who have been in care

:14:20.:14:23.

and who have often But it is expensive and changes

:14:24.:14:26.

to England's Adoption Support Fund means there's now a maximum budget

:14:27.:14:34.

of ?5,000 per for counselling. Many interventions for these

:14:35.:14:41.

children need a lot more This is therapy that needs to be

:14:42.:14:46.

ongoing and will cost The saddest bit for me

:14:47.:14:52.

is that we gave everything that we had, but the people

:14:53.:14:57.

that we thought were going to be backing us up and giving

:14:58.:15:03.

the bits that we couldn't, It isn't her real name,

:15:04.:15:09.

and we are protecting her identity to protect her two

:15:10.:15:28.

adopted teenage children. She has an adoptive daughter

:15:29.:15:30.

with foetal alcohol syndrome, and is worried about

:15:31.:15:33.

what the Adoption Support Fund cap could mean for the

:15:34.:15:35.

treatment she receives. Jay Vaughan is the clinical

:15:36.:15:37.

director of Family Futures, which provides therapy and support

:15:38.:15:40.

paid for by the Hugh Thornbery is the chief

:15:41.:15:42.

executive of Adoption UK and also the chair

:15:43.:15:46.

of the Adoption Support Fund Julie got in touch. She is a member

:15:47.:16:01.

of our audience. Julie is not her real name. She adopted her son when

:16:02.:16:07.

he was six. By the age of 14 he had become aggressive and violent and

:16:08.:16:10.

she and her husband took the decision that their son needed to go

:16:11.:16:14.

back into care. Julie, hello. Thank you very much for talking to us.

:16:15.:16:20.

Tell our audience a little bit about what you experienced with your son

:16:21.:16:25.

between the ages of six and 14? We experienced a lot of violence

:16:26.:16:32.

mainly towards myself. Extremely violent where I would have to call

:16:33.:16:36.

the police and they would have to calm him down. What kind of things

:16:37.:16:44.

was he doing? He would hit me with, he would pull the poles off the

:16:45.:16:48.

curtain rails and whack with me them. He would just hit me generally

:16:49.:16:56.

and scream at me. Throw things at me, smash things in the home. Lob

:16:57.:17:03.

things at me. He was just extremely aggressive and violent towards me.

:17:04.:17:07.

Wow. And presumably that's related to his first, the first six years of

:17:08.:17:14.

his life? Yes, it was, he came from an extremely violent background,

:17:15.:17:18.

drug and alcohol difficulties, he was born heroin addicted himself.

:17:19.:17:26.

Right. Aged 14, you took that incredibly difficult decision that

:17:27.:17:29.

he would go back into the care. Why did you make that decision? I made

:17:30.:17:34.

the decision because he was having an effect on the younger sibling.

:17:35.:17:39.

His full sibling in the home and also he kept absconding from us and

:17:40.:17:45.

he would run back to the birth parents and they would secretly keep

:17:46.:17:49.

him away and then he would turn up a few days later after a police hunt

:17:50.:17:53.

for him. Can you give us an insight into what it is like to make a

:17:54.:18:00.

decision like that? It is absolutely heartbreaking because... It is just

:18:01.:18:08.

awful. It's really hard. It has an effect

:18:09.:18:16.

on you forever, I think. We'll never stop loving him. He just needs so

:18:17.:18:23.

much help that would just couldn't offer him and we couldn't get that

:18:24.:18:27.

from any authority, they just couldn't accept that he needed

:18:28.:18:34.

extreme help. Jay, you work in terms of therapy for children similar to

:18:35.:18:40.

Julie's son. Absolutely. What would you say to Julie? She is clearly

:18:41.:18:45.

feeling guilt for what happened. It is just so sad to hear that. I think

:18:46.:18:50.

it's so familiar. There is so many families who we have seen sort of

:18:51.:18:54.

close to that point and sadly some where it has disrupted and I think

:18:55.:18:58.

sadly Julie is right, this is a grieving process which is very hard

:18:59.:19:02.

to grieve because the child is still alive so you haven't lost a child in

:19:03.:19:06.

the same way, but you're left with all those feelings of loss. So it

:19:07.:19:10.

takes a long time to recover from and I think there needs to be more

:19:11.:19:14.

help which is why we're all here today talking to really help these

:19:15.:19:18.

families not get to that point because these children do need

:19:19.:19:23.

intensive comprehensive help. Julie, stay with us as we talk to our other

:19:24.:19:28.

guests here in the studio and please, please be part of the

:19:29.:19:32.

conversation because, you know, what you have described is heartbreaking

:19:33.:19:39.

as you said. Louise, you adopted siblings. I want to ask you what,

:19:40.:19:43.

did you know about their background? What had social workers told you

:19:44.:19:49.

about their background? They told us the most, I think of the information

:19:50.:19:54.

that we needed to know as far as they knew it. They told us that

:19:55.:20:02.

their birth family were addicted to drugs and mother had been a

:20:03.:20:10.

prostitute and that there were members of a close family were in

:20:11.:20:16.

prison. Right. And in terms of you bringing up your adopted children,

:20:17.:20:21.

tell us what that was like? For the first few years I think a lot of

:20:22.:20:26.

adoptive families are so happy to have a family. We solicitor injured

:20:27.:20:40.

on and -- soldiered on and it wasn't until flagging it up to the school

:20:41.:20:46.

who helped us get support and once my son was seven we realised we

:20:47.:20:49.

really needed more support than the local authority could give us. And

:20:50.:20:57.

before you were able to access that support, how close were you to this

:20:58.:21:02.

adoption breaking down? We were just overwhelmed. I think the stress, a

:21:03.:21:07.

child's trauma is transferred to the adoptive parents and I think that

:21:08.:21:13.

the stress that we felt was so overwhelming that we couldn't see

:21:14.:21:16.

straight. So we knew we needed more support, but we didn't really know

:21:17.:21:19.

what that support should look like. Yes. We needed expert help. Jaougs

:21:20.:21:25.

there is a lot more of it around now because this was a few years ago,

:21:26.:21:35.

but there is still a complete lack of support for parents who are in

:21:36.:21:41.

our situation. What support did you get as a result of money from the

:21:42.:21:52.

Adoption Support Fund? We were back to CAMs who didn't help. Luckily the

:21:53.:21:56.

adoption support fund came in and we were able to go back to Funding

:21:57.:22:02.

Futures which was fantastic for our children because they built up

:22:03.:22:05.

trusting relationships with the therapists there. What about the

:22:06.:22:11.

cap? ?5,000 per child. To most taxpayers, they will be thinking

:22:12.:22:14.

that's plenty of money? It is not enough. If you think about how much

:22:15.:22:20.

a therapist costs and therapy for a child that's been traumatised and

:22:21.:22:25.

their families isn't just go in for on hour and lie on a bench and

:22:26.:22:29.

somebody talks to you and says breathe deeply, we do art, we do

:22:30.:22:34.

drama, we do music, we do yoga, as well as talking therapy, there is so

:22:35.:22:38.

much more, sensory integration work. Does it work? I know people will be

:22:39.:22:46.

thinking you do art, how is that going to help a kid from a heroin

:22:47.:22:50.

addicted mum. Tell us how it works? I think these children come with

:22:51.:22:54.

complex problems, it is about you need a complex solution and you need

:22:55.:22:58.

a very holistic approach and if one thinks about how trauma affects the

:22:59.:23:01.

whole body and the nervous system, the whole way a child is wired is

:23:02.:23:11.

around the trauma. Trauma. Expressing themselves verbally is

:23:12.:23:15.

not easy. It isn't a way that accesses for all of them. Being able

:23:16.:23:22.

to put it, draw something on a piece of paper, why is that, a release for

:23:23.:23:26.

them if they can't express it verbally, why does the art help?

:23:27.:23:31.

T-provides another way of expressing the unexpressable. What these

:23:32.:23:34.

children have been through sometimes is so horrific, how do you find

:23:35.:23:39.

words for it? If you can paint it and I think there was artwork used

:23:40.:23:43.

in your film earlier. If you can paint it and if you can act it out,

:23:44.:23:48.

it is another way of expressing it, rather than reenacting it on the

:23:49.:23:51.

adoptive parents or on the sibling. There is a need, we all have a need

:23:52.:23:57.

with trauma, to tell others about it. But it is about finding a safe

:23:58.:24:02.

way of communicating. Right, Hugh, let's just talk about this adoption

:24:03.:24:06.

support fund because when I look at the total funding from the

:24:07.:24:09.

Government, it's going up. ?19 million to ?23 million. Yes, the

:24:10.:24:13.

amount per family is going to be capped at ?5,000, but the Department

:24:14.:24:19.

for Education say, if there is need, for more therapeutic support for a

:24:20.:24:23.

child, where it exceeds the ?5,000, the funding will be split between

:24:24.:24:28.

the local council, if the council agrees, and the Government

:24:29.:24:32.

effectively. So, therapy could still be paid for up to ?30,000, ?40,000,

:24:33.:24:38.

?50,000. One of the great things about the adoption support fund is

:24:39.:24:42.

the fact that it began to address the postcode Lottery because there

:24:43.:24:46.

is a level of need that's been unmet for a long time that you have been

:24:47.:24:48.

hearing about. Some local authorities have been much better at

:24:49.:24:51.

recognising that and meeting it than others. So if you roll back three or

:24:52.:24:55.

four years, it was a very, very mixed picture across the country. A

:24:56.:24:59.

national fund helped to equalise that and it has benefited now nearly

:25:00.:25:05.

8800 families. I think by bringing in the limit it does obviously

:25:06.:25:09.

potentially risk those children who have got higher levels of need being

:25:10.:25:13.

able to access the service they want and we have seen because there has

:25:14.:25:17.

been a limit imposed this year, sorry this last year, we see that

:25:18.:25:21.

some local authorities are prepared to match fund, to bring the amount

:25:22.:25:26.

up, other authorities are refusing to do that, probably because of cuts

:25:27.:25:30.

to their budgets. So the risk is we're moving back into a situation

:25:31.:25:34.

where depending on where you live you either get a reasonably good

:25:35.:25:38.

service. Although the Department for Education say 80% of applications to

:25:39.:25:44.

fund, to the fund, are under ?5,000 per child. So under the limit.

:25:45.:25:48.

That's right. The average is about ?4,000. So the majority's needs will

:25:49.:25:53.

still be met with the fair access limit that's been brought in, but it

:25:54.:25:56.

does pose the issue of some of the cases that we have just been hearing

:25:57.:26:00.

about that will require a far greater degree of therapy than that,

:26:01.:26:04.

over a period of time. And the big missing thing here is the discussion

:26:05.:26:08.

about mental health services because the Government put ?1.4 billion,

:26:09.:26:13.

which puts the fund into prospective, ?1.4 billion into

:26:14.:26:16.

additional services for children's mental health, half of the clinical

:26:17.:26:20.

commissioning groups in the country, the GP-led groups that decide how

:26:21.:26:24.

funding is used has spent that money on other things. It has not gone to

:26:25.:26:28.

those services. So, we need to talk about the fund and how that's

:26:29.:26:31.

helping and what some of the limitations are and we need to

:26:32.:26:37.

understand there is a bigger issue about many of these children have

:26:38.:26:43.

needs and they are not being met. Let me bring in a viewer who doesn't

:26:44.:26:47.

want to leave their name. We have two adopted children. Our son is 13

:26:48.:26:54.

and our daughter is nine. Our children experienced neglect and

:26:55.:26:57.

abuse for a long time with their birth families before they were

:26:58.:27:01.

taken into care. And it is extremely challenging at times. I sympathise

:27:02.:27:04.

with those adoptive parents who have had to take the heartbreaking

:27:05.:27:07.

decision to place their son or daughter back into care. Very few

:27:08.:27:10.

people understand just how hard adoption is. For us, at this time,

:27:11.:27:15.

it is, it remains the best thing we've ever done, but without

:27:16.:27:18.

support, we don't know what may happen in the future and that is

:27:19.:27:22.

your worry, I think Libby as well, you have a three-year-old daughter.

:27:23.:27:24.

She is here today, you got help from the adoption support fund back in

:27:25.:27:28.

March last year. Why did you need that financial help? So my daughter

:27:29.:27:33.

has foetal alcohol syndrome. Explain what that is? Before I adopted her,

:27:34.:27:40.

I knew there was a lot of alcohol consumed in pregnancy, I knew she

:27:41.:27:46.

had emotional or behavioural issues linked to the substance misuse. Her

:27:47.:27:54.

mum was an alcoholic? A lot of the drinking happened before she knew

:27:55.:27:58.

she was pregnant. People drink and not realise there are no safe limits

:27:59.:28:03.

in pregnancy. But she did come with this future risk of foetal alcohol

:28:04.:28:07.

syndrome, but after she was placed with me, it became clear quickly

:28:08.:28:11.

this was a definite need that she had. She had quite significant

:28:12.:28:14.

sensory issues and that's kind... What does that mean? She is very

:28:15.:28:19.

young and they said before she was placed that she didn't like loud

:28:20.:28:23.

noises, but I hadn't quite comprehended or understood how

:28:24.:28:26.

limiting that was. She couldn't cope with the sound of vegetables being

:28:27.:28:29.

chopped on a board, the hoover, I remember when she moved in, she was

:28:30.:28:34.

asleep and I switched a light on downstairs and it woke her up. She

:28:35.:28:38.

isn't able to regulate noise. The social workers said, look, she may

:28:39.:28:41.

have a problem with loud noises. Yes. You hadn't understood the

:28:42.:28:46.

extent. Do you feel they didn't give you enough information or perhaps

:28:47.:28:49.

they just gave you what they had, they didn't know anymore? I think it

:28:50.:28:53.

is what they had. There was a change in social worker at the last hurdle

:28:54.:28:57.

so the social worker that was involved the whole way through, was

:28:58.:29:01.

never the one I dealt with and I feel fortunate with our local

:29:02.:29:03.

authority that they have been supportive and what I understood in

:29:04.:29:07.

the future I was probably going to deal with foetal alcohol, but there

:29:08.:29:10.

was no real expectation that it was going to be immediate and I think

:29:11.:29:13.

also the change in placement, the moving to live with me taken away

:29:14.:29:17.

from her loving foster parents was probably just a catalyst for what

:29:18.:29:22.

would have happened anyway, but it did mean it was said that the child

:29:23.:29:26.

I was placed with was not the child that anybody had expected. And both

:29:27.:29:31.

in good ways and bad ways. I'm not knocking that. You have had support

:29:32.:29:35.

from the adoption support fund and in what form does that take with

:29:36.:29:40.

your little girl? It became really clear to me she needed occupational

:29:41.:29:45.

therapy, a way to manage her senses and a way to leave the house without

:29:46.:29:50.

her having an aggressive meltdown. I did my own research and I found a

:29:51.:29:56.

really good organisation, On The Go who specialise in that and contacted

:29:57.:30:00.

my social worker, but again with the adoption support fund it clearly

:30:01.:30:03.

says they won't pay for occupational therapy. So initially I funded it

:30:04.:30:09.

myself. And then we real I seed they will pay for occupational therapy if

:30:10.:30:15.

it is sensory integration, I come across adopters and they say, we

:30:16.:30:19.

know they won't pay for that and there are limits. The other thing my

:30:20.:30:23.

daughter needs is speech and language which I can't access on the

:30:24.:30:29.

adoption support fund. Once I accessed, it was life changing and

:30:30.:30:30.

we have been fortunate. The total budget has gone up, but we

:30:31.:30:39.

have regressed to a postcode lottery, so what can you do? We can

:30:40.:30:46.

raise these issues. We monitor the use of the Adoption Support Fund, we

:30:47.:30:49.

get information on which authorities are using it, which are not, we get

:30:50.:30:54.

intelligence about whether people are waiting too long for assessment,

:30:55.:30:59.

except rep. Adoption UK and those I work with will continue to ensure

:31:00.:31:04.

the money is easily accessed for the families that meet the criteria, we

:31:05.:31:08.

will continue to persuade Government that it needs to invest, because we

:31:09.:31:12.

are only beginning to see the full extent of the level of need. Many

:31:13.:31:16.

adopters have been better -- detached from the professionals they

:31:17.:31:25.

have not received help. Up until -- up to 25% of families have

:31:26.:31:29.

experienced real difficulties and are now beginning to realise there

:31:30.:31:32.

is something that might be there to help them. That puts pressure on the

:31:33.:31:37.

amount of funding that has been put in place. As far as I understand it,

:31:38.:31:43.

official figures are not kept on how many breakdowns there are, the

:31:44.:31:48.

estimates range from about 3% to 9% to even a third. Research says a

:31:49.:31:57.

third are OK, a third struggle and a third to shrug. What is clear in

:31:58.:32:03.

other research is that the cost records are not clearly kept, we do

:32:04.:32:10.

not know how many adaptions -- adoptions are breaking down. Our

:32:11.:32:14.

experience is that it's a high number breaking down or close to

:32:15.:32:18.

disruption, and in the last week we have had two families saying if

:32:19.:32:22.

there is no funding, we don't think we can go on, we will have to say to

:32:23.:32:27.

the local authority, we can't do this. It is a serious problem, and I

:32:28.:32:30.

am worried about how the cap will happen.

:32:31.:32:43.

Really appreciate you talking to us. Talking through what a heartbreaking

:32:44.:32:51.

decision and you talk, we really appreciate it.

:32:52.:32:58.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:32:59.:33:01.

President Trump has fired the Acting US Attorney-General,

:33:02.:33:03.

saying she had "betrayed" her department by refusing

:33:04.:33:05.

to enforce his travel ban for seven mainly-Muslim countries.

:33:06.:33:07.

Sally Yates had told her lawyers not to defend the executive order

:33:08.:33:10.

which the President signed on Friday, as it might not be legal.

:33:11.:33:13.

Ms Yates had been appointed by President Obama.

:33:14.:33:15.

Mr Trump said his opponents were trying to obstruct him.

:33:16.:33:21.

MPs will this afternoon hold their first debate

:33:22.:33:23.

on the Government's bill to trigger the formal process

:33:24.:33:25.

The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has given his party strict orders

:33:26.:33:29.

to support the measure but some Labour MPs have said they will join

:33:30.:33:32.

A legal battle over the rights of parents to take their children

:33:33.:33:41.

on term-time holidays reaches the Supreme Court today.

:33:42.:33:42.

Five judges will hear an appeal by Isle of Wight Council,

:33:43.:33:45.

which fined a father, Jon Platt, for taking his daughter

:33:46.:33:47.

to Florida without her school's permission.

:33:48.:33:49.

Mr Platt challenged his fine in the High Court, and won.

:33:50.:33:55.

Join me for BBC Newsroom Live at 11am.

:33:56.:33:59.

Here's some sport now with John Watson.

:34:00.:34:01.

Two non-league sides into the fifth round for the first time

:34:02.:34:04.

One of those, Sutton United, have been rewarded with a dream tie

:34:05.:34:08.

This was the moment they found out who they will be facing.

:34:09.:34:15.

Arsenal and their superstars making the trip to Gander Green Lane, where

:34:16.:34:18.

5,000 the capacity, 55,000 less than the Emirates.

:34:19.:34:26.

Lincoln's reward for beating Brighton of the Championship

:34:27.:34:28.

is a tie away to Burnley of the Premier League.

:34:29.:34:30.

The side who top the National League were 3-1 winners last weekend.

:34:31.:34:38.

The January transfer window closes at 11pm tonight with Premier League

:34:39.:34:42.

spending expected to surpass the record from January 2011.

:34:43.:34:46.

The biggest deal so far is that of Dimitri Payet,

:34:47.:34:49.

who has moved from West Ham to Marseille for ?25 million.

:34:50.:34:51.

But with plenty of time left for deals to be done today,

:34:52.:34:54.

A legal battle over the rights of parents to take their children

:34:55.:35:04.

out of school for holidays during term-time reaches

:35:05.:35:06.

the highest court in the land today, the Supreme Court.

:35:07.:35:12.

This will have a massive impact on any parent.

:35:13.:35:16.

Five justices will hear an appeal by Isle of Wight Council,

:35:17.:35:19.

which fined a father, Jon Platt, for taking his daughter

:35:20.:35:21.

to Florida without her school's permission.

:35:22.:35:23.

Mr Platt challenged his fine in the High Court and won, and now

:35:24.:35:26.

it's gone to the Supreme Court for a final judgement.

:35:27.:35:28.

If you have taken your child out of school for a holiday

:35:29.:35:31.

without permission, so it's an unauthorised absence,

:35:32.:35:33.

Speaking ahead of the case, Jon Platt told us how he was feeling.

:35:34.:35:39.

I thought I'd be a lot more nervous than I am.

:35:40.:35:44.

All of this is now out of my hands, it's in the hands of my very

:35:45.:35:48.

talented legal team and in the hands of the Supreme Court justices.

:35:49.:35:50.

Well, the Supreme Court has been asked to make quite shocking ruling.

:35:51.:35:57.

So the Department for Education and the Isle of Wight Council,

:35:58.:36:00.

they're going to argue that any unauthorised absence from school

:36:01.:36:03.

So their interpretation of children attending school regularly

:36:04.:36:08.

is that they should attend on every day that the school requires it.

:36:09.:36:12.

And the Supreme Court is entitled to come to that opinion,

:36:13.:36:15.

they are entitled to agree with them, but if they do,

:36:16.:36:18.

12.8 million unauthorised absences happened in the last academic year.

:36:19.:36:23.

Just the last autumn term of 2015, there was 4.1 million

:36:24.:36:29.

If we lose today, those unauthorised absences all become

:36:30.:36:33.

criminal offences and, going forward, any single day that

:36:34.:36:36.

a child misses at school without the permission of the school

:36:37.:36:39.

But maybe that's what's needed to make sure their child

:36:40.:36:44.

It's not needed in this country, I don't think.

:36:45.:36:48.

But I don't think there are any circumstances under which that level

:36:49.:36:57.

of draconian interpretation of the word regularly

:36:58.:36:58.

I don't see any circumstances under which a child with maybe 98,

:36:59.:37:02.

99% attendance, the parents should be dragged to court.

:37:03.:37:05.

It would be outrageous, absolutely outrageous.

:37:06.:37:08.

Well, the Department for Education says regular attendance means not

:37:09.:37:10.

Let's just be clear, Victoria, they have never

:37:11.:37:16.

It is only in relation to this case and, boy,

:37:17.:37:20.

have we looked hard to find statutory guidance or caselaw

:37:21.:37:24.

where anybody has ever said that regular attendance in school

:37:25.:37:27.

But you're right, they do say that now.

:37:28.:37:33.

35 councils in England no longer fine parents for term-time

:37:34.:37:36.

holidays as a direct result of Jon Platt's case.

:37:37.:37:40.

Jerry Glazier is an executive member of the National Union of Teachers.

:37:41.:37:43.

He doesn't think fining parents is the right way forward.

:37:44.:37:45.

Samantha Woodland is a mother from Cleethorpes.

:37:46.:37:49.

John Mitchell is a father from Portsmouth who has been fined

:37:50.:37:52.

And Denise Pritchett was fined yesterday for taking her

:37:53.:37:55.

That is the intention. You sure? I would rather pay that now than leave

:37:56.:38:14.

it and try and appeal it and potentially cost me thousands of

:38:15.:38:20.

pounds. Why did you take your daughter out in October? It was my

:38:21.:38:25.

elder daughter's GCSEs last year, and it was her reward for doing

:38:26.:38:31.

well. It is my jumper daughter that we have received the fine for. Did

:38:32.:38:38.

you have to go away then? The trip was to Florida. It was Halloween

:38:39.:38:47.

that my daughter wanted to go. Halloween only occurs in October.

:38:48.:38:53.

The previous year, the school had actually given us two weeks' holiday

:38:54.:38:59.

in October. I had anticipated they would do the same again, but they

:39:00.:39:05.

did not. You have been fined how many times? Once. You took her to

:39:06.:39:14.

Disneyland Paris for her birthday. You refusing to pay. We did ask the

:39:15.:39:25.

school, we said in a letter, it went to the Board of Governors, they

:39:26.:39:33.

turned it down. They said, can't you take her when it is the school

:39:34.:39:36.

holidays? Have you seen the prices of holidays in the summer? We paid

:39:37.:39:44.

an arm and a leg to take a two distiller in Paris in November. If I

:39:45.:39:52.

wanted to look about holiday in the school holidays, I would have paid

:39:53.:39:57.

double. Definitely. Does your daughter need that holiday? No! Your

:39:58.:40:10.

response tells me the answer! I am a dad that always says yes to my

:40:11.:40:19.

daughter. You setting up problems! We ask her, what do she want to do

:40:20.:40:25.

for her birthday? Guess what she says, Disneyland Paris, of course!

:40:26.:40:29.

She wanted to take her friend as well. Did you say guests? Yes, she

:40:30.:40:37.

is at a different school. She never got fined. That is interesting. That

:40:38.:40:46.

is probably because of this case. Samantha, hello. Your son has had an

:40:47.:40:55.

excellent attendance record. You talk him out of school for a

:40:56.:40:58.

wedding, you have been fined and you are refusing to pay. We took him out

:40:59.:41:02.

for two family weddings which were in the same week. One was in Fort

:41:03.:41:08.

William and the second was in the Orkneys, so it is not a trip you can

:41:09.:41:14.

do within a day. You could not have been surprised when you got the

:41:15.:41:21.

fine? We put the request in, and under the circumstances, until

:41:22.:41:24.

recently, we were a military family, my husband served for the last 15

:41:25.:41:29.

years, and due to those commitments we have missed countless family

:41:30.:41:37.

gatherings. So now we are out in civvy Street, we were hopeful that

:41:38.:41:44.

we would be permitted... It is a one off, I do not think we should be

:41:45.:41:51.

punished for it. If this Supreme Court case means parents will be

:41:52.:41:55.

criminalised and find for taking their children out of school, is

:41:56.:42:02.

that right? The National Union of Teachers believes passionately that

:42:03.:42:04.

everything should be done for children to attend school. It is

:42:05.:42:09.

important that parents understand sometimes the negative impact of

:42:10.:42:14.

taking their children out. But fining parents creates a negative

:42:15.:42:21.

environment, and it creates confrontation. How would you deal

:42:22.:42:27.

with parents who do it? You began to deal with him very well! It is not

:42:28.:42:35.

my job! It is engaging with parents constructively and saying, think

:42:36.:42:40.

about this think about the impact think about whether it is absolutely

:42:41.:42:43.

necessary. There will be occasions when it is necessary. It is

:42:44.:42:49.

different from persistent truancy. If you do it on a case-by-case

:42:50.:42:57.

basis, Samantha says, military family, we have missed weddings,

:42:58.:43:01.

family gatherings, finally we can take our child, they are a bit of a

:43:02.:43:05.

trek, the Orkneys and the other place, I have forgotten... For

:43:06.:43:12.

William. Broadly, most parents might say, take your child. Some might say

:43:13.:43:18.

to you, it is Disneyland Paris, it is not a family wedding. But then

:43:19.:43:24.

John will say, hang on, some of the's it can go to a wedding, why

:43:25.:43:30.

can't I go to Paris for my daughter's birthday? There needs to

:43:31.:43:34.

be some sophistication and discretion. The problem in the past

:43:35.:43:39.

has been that the Department for Education has handed down a diktat

:43:40.:43:43.

to headteachers and said, you have got to say no on every case. You

:43:44.:43:48.

say, leave it to headteachers? Give them the discretion to understand

:43:49.:43:52.

the circumstances to make a decision. We asked for our daughter

:43:53.:43:58.

to come out two weeks ago to go to a family funeral and they denied us an

:43:59.:44:02.

hour and a quarter. So we took her away for the whole day. We will

:44:03.:44:08.

report back on the case when the Supreme Court hands down the

:44:09.:44:10.

decision. Two suspected animal smugglers have

:44:11.:44:13.

been arrested in Ivory Coast following a year-long BBC

:44:14.:44:15.

investigation into the trafficking There's growing demand for baby

:44:16.:44:17.

chimps as exotic pets The only way to catch them is to

:44:18.:44:22.

kill the adults in their families. Our science editor David Shukman

:44:23.:44:28.

found dealers willing to sell the apes, which are an endangered

:44:29.:44:31.

species, for $12,500 each. After arresting the men,

:44:32.:44:38.

police uncovered computer and mobile phone evidence of an international

:44:39.:44:40.

smuggling network linking corrupt We played you David's full film

:44:41.:44:43.

earlier in the programme. Captured from a jungle

:44:44.:44:49.

in West Africa. Orphaned after poachers

:44:50.:45:07.

killed its family, and now Chimps are in danger,

:45:08.:45:09.

so exporting them is illegal. But they are so adorable,

:45:10.:45:19.

they are wanted as pets During a year-long investigation,

:45:20.:45:22.

we were sent these videos by dealers offering to sell the tiny animals

:45:23.:45:30.

for about ?10,000 each. We got in touch with a dealer

:45:31.:45:38.

called Ibrahima Traore. He sent us a video of

:45:39.:45:53.

a crate specially made He then met a colleague of ours

:45:54.:45:56.

who was pretending to be a buyer, Ibrahima spelled out

:45:57.:46:00.

his prices in dollars. Using a hidden camera,

:46:01.:46:05.

our undercover colleague filmed his I'm OK, yes, I'm just a bit

:46:06.:46:24.

afraid of the animal. His cover story was that he needed

:46:25.:46:35.

proof for a client in Indonesia. And everyone there denied

:46:36.:46:45.

knowing anything about it. Detectives charged

:46:46.:47:10.

through the neighbourhood. He's facing charges related

:47:11.:47:36.

to wildlife trafficking, along with his uncle,

:47:37.:47:40.

Mohammed. And a search led them to a small

:47:41.:47:43.

room, where they found a crate So the police have just made

:47:44.:47:46.

all of these arrests. It's pretty edgy here,

:47:47.:47:55.

the atmosphere, and A baby chimpanzee

:47:56.:47:57.

taken from the jungle. The real tragedy of this trade

:47:58.:48:02.

is that to get one infant chimpanzee out of the jungle,

:48:03.:48:05.

all of the adults in its family That's as many as ten adults

:48:06.:48:08.

slaughtered just to get one chimp Hungry but safe at

:48:09.:48:13.

the zoo in Abidjan. The keepers gave him

:48:14.:48:19.

a name, Nembly Junior. But the trauma he's been through may

:48:20.:48:23.

have caused lasting damage. Live in Nairobi is John Scanlon

:48:24.:48:30.

from Cites, which aims to ensure that international trade of wild

:48:31.:48:33.

animals does not Dr Rebecca Atencia is from

:48:34.:48:35.

the Jane Goodall Institute, and is director of their chimpanzee

:48:36.:48:42.

sanctuary in the Democratic Dr Cleve Hicks is a specialist

:48:43.:48:44.

in chimp behaviour, having worked with them for more than 15 years

:48:45.:48:49.

in the wild. And Kaddu Sebunya is president

:48:50.:48:55.

of the African Wildlife Foundation, which works directly with African

:48:56.:48:57.

governments for the Welcome all of you. John Scanlon,

:48:58.:49:12.

how big is this problem of trafficking in chimpanzees? Well,

:49:13.:49:18.

illegal wildlife trade is having a devastating impact on a large number

:49:19.:49:21.

of wild animals and plants for that matter and here I think this

:49:22.:49:26.

investigative report just displayed for us graphically how traumatic

:49:27.:49:30.

this illegal wildlife trade is when you're looking at live animals, a

:49:31.:49:36.

beautiful chimpanzee put into illegal trade. It's run by trance

:49:37.:49:41.

national organised criminal gangs. People who are very savvy. They do

:49:42.:49:43.

everything they can to avoid the law. They corrupt people along the

:49:44.:49:48.

way. So I think you've really exposed, you know, how disturbing

:49:49.:49:54.

this illegal trade is and the sort of measures that these trans

:49:55.:49:58.

national organised gangs go to shift the wildlife across international

:49:59.:50:03.

borders. Rebecca, what impact can it have on a chimp's well-being, being

:50:04.:50:07.

ripped from their family at a young age? The impact it can have just

:50:08.:50:13.

incredible because it affects when it is one or two years old, at that

:50:14.:50:18.

time the mother is the centre of their life. The bond they have

:50:19.:50:21.

established with their mother at that time is so important and the

:50:22.:50:25.

attachment and that means that they love the mother and they see how

:50:26.:50:30.

they kill her in front of them and it affects their personality for the

:50:31.:50:34.

rest of their life and it is so difficult to recover interest that

:50:35.:50:37.

trauma that they suffered in that moment. Kadu, what are you doing to

:50:38.:50:43.

try to reduce the trafficking of these chimps? We have a conversation

:50:44.:50:53.

with the BBC for exposing this illegal crime. We have tried to

:50:54.:50:58.

focus on the three areas. We are trying to stop the killing and stop

:50:59.:51:03.

the trafficking and reduce the demand in other countries and we

:51:04.:51:12.

cannot do do any better than looking at the habitats, conservation,

:51:13.:51:15.

looking at communities around the habitats, but also focus on African

:51:16.:51:23.

Government and how they can strengthen their laws. Africa is

:51:24.:51:31.

losing the species that we need for our devolvement. That's a big issue

:51:32.:51:37.

on the Continent. Clive, how easy is it to reintegrate a chimp into the

:51:38.:51:40.

wild? It is actually really, really difficult and actually impossible

:51:41.:51:44.

because chimpanzees, if you are trying to reintegrate them into a

:51:45.:51:47.

social group that's already there, they are fend owe phobic, any orphan

:51:48.:51:53.

that would you would try to put into the group would be killed, you

:51:54.:51:56.

shouldn't bring it anyway because they can bring diseases from the

:51:57.:52:01.

humans. They can never really go back out in the forests and live a

:52:02.:52:06.

full chapl pan ze life again. So they have to be integrated into

:52:07.:52:11.

sanctuary environment then? Exactly. Exactly. There is I've worked with

:52:12.:52:17.

sanctuaries in eastern Congo that provide a really good home for these

:52:18.:52:20.

chimps that really can't go anywhere else. Rebecca, your job is working

:52:21.:52:26.

with can chimps in the dronk. Tell us about their life in your

:52:27.:52:34.

sanctuary? -- Democratic Republic of Congo. We need to establish bonding

:52:35.:52:41.

again and especially in this case at the beginning and when he arrived,

:52:42.:52:51.

after within year, it takes a long time the recovery and until they are

:52:52.:53:04.

ten years old, they cannot have relationships with other

:53:05.:53:07.

chimpanzees. It is a long time. They can live for 70 years and all this

:53:08.:53:11.

time in the sanctuary, it is a long time for their recovering. John, is

:53:12.:53:15.

it possible to have an international trade in wild animals without

:53:16.:53:21.

threatening their survival? Well, this convention that was negotiated

:53:22.:53:27.

back in the 1970s distinguished between different animals and

:53:28.:53:30.

plants. It said where an animal or plant is already threatened with

:53:31.:53:34.

extinction, it should not enter into international commercial trade. It

:53:35.:53:39.

is prohibited as is the case with all great apes. For some other

:53:40.:53:44.

species, they say they are not yet threatened with extinction, but they

:53:45.:53:47.

could become threatened with extinction if we don't strictly

:53:48.:53:53.

regulate the trade and there is trade in many species, and

:53:54.:53:57.

crocodiles and certain sharks, that's strictly regulated to make

:53:58.:54:01.

sure they don't become threatened with extinction, but with respect to

:54:02.:54:06.

great apes, there is to be no international commercial trade and

:54:07.:54:10.

what you uncovered here was an example, a terrible example of where

:54:11.:54:15.

people are seeking to succumb haven't the international rules

:54:16.:54:19.

prohibiting that trade. I'm grateful for your time. Thank you very much

:54:20.:54:22.

for coming on the programme. Thank you.

:54:23.:54:28.

On Monday we're holding a live audience programme

:54:29.:54:30.

We'll be looking at the problems it's facing and asking

:54:31.:54:33.

If you work in the NHS in whatever role or you're a patient

:54:34.:54:39.

with recent experience, we'd love you to be

:54:40.:54:41.

E-mail [email protected] to let us know if you're interested and one

:54:42.:54:50.

We'll be joined by our health editor Hugh Pym, leading politicians

:54:51.:54:55.

We need you, staff and patients of the NHS.

:54:56.:55:08.

A couple of primary schools in England have begun allowing

:55:09.:55:11.

pupils to wear their slippers in class after research found it

:55:12.:55:14.

The study from Bournemouth University found children who attend

:55:15.:55:20.

lessons without shoes work harder and behave better.

:55:21.:55:22.

West Thornton Primary Academy in London is one of those schools

:55:23.:55:25.

Let's speak to Di Pumphrey, headteacher at West Thornton Primary

:55:26.:55:33.

She's in charge of the shoeless zones in the school.

:55:34.:55:41.

Hello both of you. Hello. Hello. Why does having their shoes off mean

:55:42.:55:50.

children learn better? Well, I think the answer to that is that nobody

:55:51.:55:56.

actually knows. It is not one magic silver bullet. What we have been

:55:57.:55:59.

doing over the last four years is really rethinking our approach to

:56:00.:56:02.

learning and teaching and redesigning our spaces so that we

:56:03.:56:06.

actually get the best out of children and their attitudes to

:56:07.:56:09.

learning. Shoeless learning is just one part of that approach that we've

:56:10.:56:13.

taken and we have been doing it for four years. It came about through

:56:14.:56:17.

children deciding for themselves that they have been given a lovely

:56:18.:56:21.

new classroom, open-plan, flexible learning environment to learn in and

:56:22.:56:26.

they wanted to respect it and feel comfortable in it and learn better

:56:27.:56:30.

on the different furniture that we had in there and so they took the

:56:31.:56:35.

decision after looking at the research to go shoeless. Let me

:56:36.:56:41.

ask... We didn't enforce it with them. What difference have you seen,

:56:42.:56:47.

in terms of the pupils performance? Well, we have seen a definite change

:56:48.:56:51.

in behaviour, behaviour is much calmer in the learning zones. The

:56:52.:56:55.

noise levels have gone down. Children feel more comfortable and

:56:56.:56:58.

most definitely on the first year that we did the open learning zone

:56:59.:57:02.

which including the shoeless learning, results went out on

:57:03.:57:10.

year-on-year in terms of comparing the cohorts, and we are resilience

:57:11.:57:15.

and working collaboratively and being independent really and that's

:57:16.:57:18.

where they took charge of the learning in terms of choosing to go

:57:19.:57:21.

shoeless. It was their idea. They had to present the data back to us

:57:22.:57:26.

to prove you know that is not a gimmick there, has an impact on

:57:27.:57:32.

learning. I think not all parents Di, not all parents are into it.

:57:33.:57:36.

They think it might be scruffy or slobby? I've not had that brought

:57:37.:57:42.

back to me from any of our parents. Our children decided that this was

:57:43.:57:45.

the way that they were going to go. They presented it to their parents.

:57:46.:57:51.

It was not enforced, but all of our children just choose to do that

:57:52.:57:54.

because they feel more comfortable and more relaxed. You're not going

:57:55.:57:58.

to learn well when you are sitting uncomfortably in a chair with shoes

:57:59.:58:02.

on. You just need to relax and think about how you learn at home. Think

:58:03.:58:06.

about how you read at home. Think about you sort of sit there with an

:58:07.:58:10.

iPad on your lap perhaps, something else by your side and you

:58:11.:58:15.

co-ordinate your learning to make it feel comfortable for you. We have

:58:16.:58:19.

not had any negative response from our parents and we wouldn't expect

:58:20.:58:23.

any because they can see it working with our children. Thank you, Di,

:58:24.:58:28.

Thank you Aylament thank you for your comments on adoption this

:58:29.:58:33.

morning. Yes, really grateful. Have a good day.

:58:34.:58:34.

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