Browse content similar to 13/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello it's Monday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Chloe Tilley, | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
in for Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme. | :00:10. | :00:19. | |
Chaos in one of the biggest prisons in the country has been revealed | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
Move away from it or else I will use it on you. I would prefer it if you | :00:24. | :00:35. | |
didn't. Can you move away from it? Lacey I can step up here. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
An undercover reporter discovered widespread drug use, | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
a lack of control, door alarms that did not go off in one | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
block and a hole in an internal security fence. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
We'll hear from prisoners and guards this morning. | :00:47. | :00:47. | |
And if you've spent time in prison recently, | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
we are really keen to hear your experiences this morning. | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Also on the programme, more division for the church over | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
How damaging will the row be for the church? | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
Good morning, I am Father Andrew Foreshaw-Cain, I'm happily married | :01:01. | :01:12. | |
to my husband and I believe the report today is a steaming pile of | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
waffle which will harm the church. And Gavin Ashenden, have spent years | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
on the General Synod and the report invites us to take direction that | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
the teaching of Jesus and the faithfulness of the Church does not | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
allow us to go in. And Adele stole the show | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
at the Grammys overnight - for an amazing George Michael | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
cover....but it didn't I know it's live TV, I'm sorry, | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
I need to start again, I'm sorry for swearing and I'm | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
sorry for starting again. Welcome to the programme, | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
we're live until 11. I'm Chloe Tilley and | :01:55. | :02:13. | |
throughout the morning we'll bring you the latest breaking news | :02:14. | :02:14. | |
and developing stories. A little later in the programme | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
we'll hear from children of addicted parents - | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
as a new report from the NSPCC says they receive a call every single | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
hour from adults worried about drugs We'll talk about the impact it has | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
on those young children. If you've got you own experience, | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
do get in touch - use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and if you text, | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
you will be charged Widespread drug use, | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
door alarms that didn't work and a hole in a perimeter fence | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
- just some of the discoveries made by a BBC undercover | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
reporter at a prison Panorama discovered evidence | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
of major security failings during secret filming at HMP | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
Northumberland which holds more than 1,000 men and is run | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
by the firm Sodexo. Undercover in one | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
of our biggest jails. For two months, BBC Panorama filmed | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
the drugs feeding addiction inside. HMP Northumberland is a private jail | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
run by the French company Sodexo On the undercover reporter's first | :03:07. | :03:15. | |
day inside, 2.5 kilograms of Spice, an illegal high with a prison value | :03:16. | :03:37. | |
of ?250,000 was found in two cells. Despite this, Panorama was told | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
there was no lockdown, so the block The BBC secretly filmed | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
inmates high on drugs. CCTV cameras recorded | :03:45. | :03:55. | |
an inmate being stamped on. At one point, Panorama's | :03:56. | :04:27. | |
undercover reporter During filming, the BBC discovered | :04:28. | :04:28. | |
a serious security breach, Nearby, officers found | :04:29. | :04:43. | |
wire-cutting tools and, later, It meant drugs could have been | :04:44. | :04:57. | |
passed into the jail. The reporter asked | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
the governor what went wrong. Sodexo, the company that runs | :05:04. | :05:21. | |
the prison, said the safety of staff The Ministry of Justice said it | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
would urgently investigate the BBC's footage and that the government | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
is determined to reform our prisons. Much more on that when we speak to | :05:33. | :05:51. | |
one former prisoner who says 85% of the people he was in prison with | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
work on spies. Now a summary of the rest of the day's news. -- they were | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
on spice. Britain's biggest supermarket Tesco | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
says it's taking immediate action to check prices, | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
after a BBC investigation revealed two thirds of deals | :06:10. | :06:11. | |
on the shelves were out of date, A team from BBC Inside Out visited | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
50 branches across England, and found multi-buy deals | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
still being advertised days - and in some cases months | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
after the deductions The Co-Op Bank has | :06:24. | :06:24. | |
announced it's up for sale. The high street bank has over | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
four million customers but almost collapsed in 2013 after a series | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
of financial problems. Since then it's been run by private | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
investment companies who say they've now made "considerable progress" | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
in turning the business around. The body that approves church law, | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
the General Synod of the Church Much of the debate is likely | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
to centre on the clergy's response to a report on gay | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
marriage, which upholds a traditional definition of marriage | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
as being between a man and a woman. But 11 former bishops have accused | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
the church of ignoring Nearly 200,000 people | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
in Northern California are being evacuated from their homes | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
after the tallest dam in America Officials feared the | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
Oroville Dam could be about to collapse after a giant hole | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
developed in the overflow channel. Crews using helicopters have | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
dropped rocks to fill the gouge in the spillway, | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
and the excess water this programme they were conned out | :07:27. | :07:42. | |
of thousands of pounds by an organisation that said it could win | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
in custody. This service is provided by Mackenzie Friends, not legally | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
trained but providing support for those going to court, the company | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
charged for their services and there are now calls for this to be | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
regulated. We will have a special report on that just talking to | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
families who have been affected just after 9:30am. | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
At the Grammy's Adele has broken her own record, | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
becoming the first person to take the top three awards | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
The star was honoured at the awards in Los Angeles for her single Hello | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
But the London-born singer apparently turned down | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
the award for best album, saying Beyonce deserved it more. | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
Adele won five prizes in all, including three of the top awards, | :08:26. | :08:35. | |
Best Album, Song of the Year and record of the year. | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
Sir Bradley Wiggins has pulled out of Channel 4's winter sports show | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
Britain's most decorated Olympian suffered a small | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
fracture while taking part in snow cross training. | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
The eight-time Olympic medallist and Tour de France winner said | :08:47. | :08:48. | |
he was "gutted" that the injury forced him out. | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
Channel 4 said Sir Bradley had been keen to continue but wouldn't appear | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
after the fourth show in the series, which has attracted | :09:00. | :09:01. | |
criticism after a number of previous celebrities | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30am. | :09:04. | :09:15. | |
Your views are welcome on gay marriage within the church. We will | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
be talking to various interested parties. | :09:21. | :09:22. | |
Do get in touch with us throughout the morning, | :09:23. | :09:24. | |
use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
And a football doping investigation has been conducted with some | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
surprising findings, Will Perry joins us now, so Will, | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
At least 39% of players in the English football league were not | :09:35. | :09:44. | |
drugs tested for illegal doping, according to figures we have | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
received, that is the Championship and League 1 and League 2, although | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
not the Premier League. The body that carries out testing on behalf | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
of the FA and also test the 50 Olympic, Paralympic and Commonwealth | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
professional sports, they took thousands of samples from 1989 | :10:02. | :10:10. | |
players in the EFL. From 550 players to play in the Premier League, 799 | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
samples were taken, a massive difference which does not account | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
for players being tested more than once, one player tested five times | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
would mean five samples, for instance. So those figures relate to | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
the English football league but it's not just them that have been | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
questioned. No, figures show there is an even bigger problem in women's | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
football with only 36 samples taken from 169 players in Women's Super | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
League one, the top flight of domestic women's football, the | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
Football Association say like any sport, it has prioritised and | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
anti-doping programme at the elite end of it and they also say the | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
researchers intelligence led, meaning any player that the FA | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
thinks presents a problem will be targeted, last season we had the | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
Brentford midfielder Alan Judge who was the only player tested on behalf | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
of the FA to bridge these doping regulations and he was reprimanded | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
after proving that the substance he had taken was from an asthma | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
inhaler. Having said this, there are bigger issues in other European | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
leagues, Spain, Germany, the Scottish FA last year announced that | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
they had plans to tackle the issues and the English at a plan to double | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
the number of tests conducted next season at a cost of almost ?2 | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
million. We'll have the headlines are you at our past nine. Thank you, | :11:39. | :11:40. | |
we will speak to you then. Next this morning, should | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
the Church of England stop insisting marriage has to be | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
between a man and a woman? The issue is set to cause | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
yet more divisions when the the General Synod - | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
that's basically the governing body of the church, made up of bishops, | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
clergy and lay members - At the moment gay people can't | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
get married in a Church of England church - | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
though they can get blessed in some. A report to be debated | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
at the meeting on Wednesday will stick to the traditional | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
definition of marriage In an unprecedented move, | :12:08. | :12:08. | |
that's now been opposed by 11 former bishops who say the church | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
is failing its LGBT members. Last month a House of Bishops report | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
said the Church shouldn't change its opposition | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
to same-sex marriage, tone and culture of welcome | :12:23. | :12:23. | |
and support" for gay people. We can talk now to Andrew | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
Foreshew-Cain who became Britain's first gay vicar to openly | :12:28. | :12:39. | |
marry his partner in 2014. formerly Bishop of Swindon, | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
who signed a letter at the weekend criticising the way the church | :12:44. | :12:56. | |
represents gay people And Gavin Ashendon is former | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
honorary chaplain to gay rights activist who now believes | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
marriage should be And we will shortly be | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
speaking to Susie Leafe, who is the Director of Reform | :13:07. | :13:16. | |
an organisation that campaigns to uphold the original | :13:17. | :13:18. | |
doctrines of the Church of England. Andrew, does the Church welcome LGBT | :13:19. | :13:27. | |
members of the community? I don't think so. They say they do but in | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
reality the Church of England is a very tough place for someone to be | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
LGBT. Would you agree? I think we have moved a long way but not far | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
enough. The criticism that we retired bishops have of this report | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
from serving bishops, and we do not underestimate the difficult job they | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
do holding the church together, around some difficult issues, | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
nevertheless, we feel that this report does not represent the kind | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
of direction that we were taking, and therefore understandably, a lot | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
of gay and lesbian people in the church feel very disappointed. | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
Before we get Gavin's point of view, do you think this is about the tone | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
and the message that is sent out to gay and lesbian members of the | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
community or is this about gay people being able to get married in | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
church? The current bishops would say it is about tone and they would | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
say they want to set a new tone. Actually I would say it should be | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
about reality, which is how LGBT people are treated by the church and | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
how our relationships are respected and recognised. It's also about | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
recognising that the Church of England has a prayerful response to | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
issues of human sexuality, and the bishops and this new report entirely | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
failed to recognise that. The report is right that we need a change of | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
tone but if you look for example at what else has happened this last | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
weekend when the Archbishop of Canterbury said about child | :15:10. | :15:11. | |
refugees, we don't just want sentiment, we want action. And the | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
problem with this report is that it rightly calls for a change of tone, | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
for a more welcoming, accepting attitude on behalf of the church but | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
that is only going to be real and we will only touch the real reasons for | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
homophobia if we need to see some action. I think for us retired | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
bishops it may well be that any move a bad marriage is too far. I myself | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
have struggled with that although I've now come to the conclusion that | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
sacramental marriage would be strengthened rather than weakened by | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
including same-sex partners. But nevertheless there are other things | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
we could do. Other things that this report could have proposed for | :15:59. | :16:00. | |
example the blessing of civil partnerships. That would have meant | :16:01. | :16:07. | |
that we were not just talking about changing tone, we were really doing | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
something about welcoming, accepting gay and lesbian people. | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
Bretts bring in Gavin. What about the issue about a blessing of | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
same-sex couples? Is that something you could see happening? The Church | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
of England? Well, I would like it say Christianity is about | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
indiscriminate love and this quality of love comes because of our | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
relationship with the Holy Spirit. It is not produced by a committee's | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
report even if it is done by bishops and my experience is that the | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
chumpble has been overwhelingly loving and accepting to people who | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
cross its doors. It is what it sets out to do. The problem with both gay | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
marriage and also the blessing of gay relationships is that to be a | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Christian you're committed to follow the teaching of Jesus and the | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
teaching of Jesus is marriage is between a man and a woman with the | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
intention of having children. And the problem with the report is that | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
whilst it keeps a conventional approach, traditional Christianity | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
on the surface, in its legal advice at end, it is making arrangements | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
for formal blessings to be prepared after civil services. So Bishop | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
Michael was right, it is about the direction the report is take the | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
church in and from the teaching of Jesus, that's a direction that we | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
don't find ourselves able to take. I would challenge that the church | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
has been entirely loving and accepting of gay and lesbian people. | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
I have members of my congregation who are refugees from conservative | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
churches like Gavin's who come to me after years of abuse and the | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
theology that's held by the churches. I have regular contact | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
with people who self-harm and there have been well reported suicides. | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
They felt the only way out has been through suicide. There is a meeting | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
at the General Synod of a church in Manchester who lost a 14-year-old | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
young woman to suicide precisely because of teaching of the church. | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
And the sense and the hurt that that person was left with. Andrew, I mean | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
I understand that and the stories and the anecdotes that people are | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
suffering... These aren't anecdotes. I get text messages every day from a | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
young woman who is attending a conservative church in London who is | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
being told that she is wrong and is going to go to hell and she | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
self-harms every day. Sometimes so badly that she ends up in A | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
because the cut is too deep. And there is a psychological report | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
released in 2013 that says amazingly that gay people find themselves | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
mentally better off, their mental health is better off in conservative | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
churches. So we have two sets of evidence and the answer at the end | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
is all we can do as Christians to love one another and put the Bible | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
into practise and in that way we make our journey forward. | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
I want to bring in Suzie who just joined us as well. I don't know how | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
much Suzie has been able to hear of what we've said. Suzie, it is great | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
to have you on the programme. We were just hearing from Andrew saying | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
that many members of his congregation self-harm because they | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
are lesbian or gay and feel they are not accepted in some extreme cases | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
ending up in accident and emergency as a result. He's saying the church | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
isn't welcoming enough to the LGBT community? I think that's a really | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
difficult thing to hear and I feel sorry for those people. It is just | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
not the experience of the lesbian and gay people that I know within | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
our churches. Conservative churches. I think they are finding a real | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
sense of love and acceptance, a place where they're discovering that | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
God loves them and God wants the best for them and they're | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
flourishing. And they are happy that same-sex marriage is not allowed in | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
the Church of England? Well, I'm sure you've heard on the BBC over | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
the last couple of weeks there have been people like Ed Shaw talking and | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
I think their experience is very common. They're saying to live a | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
life that is the same in many ways of Jesus Christ, a single life, in | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
community, offers a great blessing. I wouldn't doubt that there are gay | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
and lesbian people in your churches who are widely welcomed because they | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
conform to the narrow set of views thaw want them to conform to. Those | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
of us who find joy and love in our relationships are not welcome in | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
your churches. I have been told I'm a false preacher and I'm going to | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
hell by members of those churches. Conforming is an easy way of | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
avoiding conflict and hurt and people like Ed Shaw represent a tiny | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
minority of both the gay and lesbian community in the church and much | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
more widely in society and what they are trying to do is using the | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
language of conversion therapy to pretend that going gay and lesbian | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
is a pathology and they are insisting that everybody must make | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
the choices that they are free to make themselves to be celibate. Ed, | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
if he is happy to be celibate, I'm happy for him, but his book talks | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
about his despair and unhappiness and how he Fanta saousz about the | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
lovely young man that he might build a relationship with, but can't | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
because of the theology he holds. The majority of gay and lesbian find | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
sources of blessing with their relationship with God as indeed I do | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
with mine. I'm really sorry... Go ahead Suzie. We're listening. I've | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
got various sounds coming around. I'm having to do this in the | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
reception at BBC Plymouth. I think, from what I heard Andrew saying, | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
he's trying to claim, I think, that a life should be a life that's | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
hassle free and without cost... No, that's not true, Suzie at all | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
because no relationship is ever, no marriage is ever hassle free without | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
cost. I have been with my partner for 17 years and I promise like | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
everybody in a long-term relationship there has been struggle | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
within that relationship, but that relationship is nonetheless a | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
relationship of love and plesing and support and encouragement as I'm | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
sure so is yours. That's, in this country, you are free to have that | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
relationship and I think that's a good thing. The question is, is | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
whether or not that is a relationship which is in line with | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
the teaching of Jesus Christ? What worries me about this debate is the | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
church and the Gospel are coming across as very stayed and unmoving | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
things and the church is a living organism. We are called to serve the | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
good news of Jesus Christ. The doctrine has developed through the | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
life of the Church. Sometimes we've got things terribly wrong like the | :23:39. | :23:50. | |
inqisation. On marriage which we're discussing this morning, we made | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
some very significant changes about divorce and welcoming divorced | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
people into church and to have their second marriage in church. We | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
continue, now, we welcome parents who are not married who bring their | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
children to be baptised and now, facing the question of gay and | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
lesbian people within the church, what we're called to do is to ask | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
how can we express the good news of Jesus Christ which Gavin and Suzie | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
have rightly emphasised as our central responsibility, how can we | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
proclaim that, not just in tone, but in real ways so that they also are | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
fully part of the church and are part of this loving, forgiving | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
action of God? Lots of people are getting in touch. | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
I would be keen to get you to respond to the messages. A text, "My | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
daughter is getting married in April. Same-sex. They have to get | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
married in the civic centre in Newcastle and the next day they're | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
getting blessed in a church. It doesn't make any sense why they can | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
be blessed, but not married." Another text, "I do not understand | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
why gay Christians and priests think they should have more rights than | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
the church? The taesmings of the church and the Bible don't support | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
gay relationships just as it does not support fornication. You cannot | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
change the principles of the Bible to suit your needs." I am a vicar | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
ministering in Thailand. I am also gay. LGBT people should be treated | :25:25. | :25:32. | |
equally not because it is the spirit of age, but it is central to the | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
truth and love shown in Jesus." Another text, "Although I think | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
getting married is good especially if you can do it in church, it is | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
about people cherry-picking the Bible and the so-called word of God | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
when it suits them. If you're not going to follow the teachings of the | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
Bible, then it is not going to work properly." I would say, I mean, I do | :25:50. | :25:58. | |
read the Bible every day and I would see myself as a faithful Bible | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
reading Christian. The bishop's report which started this off fails | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
to recognise that there is, within the Church of England, a significant | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
diversity of thee logical approaches and scripture interpretations. So | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
claiming there was a single way of reading Holy Script is wrong | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
basically. Gavin. How is this going to be resolved? This conversation | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
alone demonstrated the huge divisions within the Church of | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
England? That's a good question and an important one. The Church of | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
England has been very good, because it is very welcoming and it is | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
enormous by broad at gathering people together in one group and it | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
has done for a very long time. The problem as your e-mails and your | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
Twitter feed have shown is we've reached a point where the two-ways | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
of understanding our relationship as human beings are simply going in | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
different directions and the problem we're facing at the moment is that | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
even the inclusivity of the Church of England may not be broad enough | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
to manage to keep the two directions together and unfortunately that's | :27:10. | :27:11. | |
the experience of the church elsewhere. In America, for example, | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
where the conversation is 20 or 30 ahead of where we are now, | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
unfortunately, the Christian church separate the Anglican Church | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
separated into two groups, each pursuing what they thought the truth | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
was. Maybe that's what will have to happen here if we are to keep our | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
integrity and then we can test what Christianity will allow people to | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
flourish best. The same kind of things were said about the Ministry | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
of Women in the church and we in the Church of England took such a long | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
time to actually come to where we are now and where we are now is that | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
we have so many wonderful women serving as priest and bishops in the | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
Church of England, we haven't split. We haven't turned our back on the | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
Bible. We've actually moved forward under the power of the Holy Spirit. | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
We understand the Bible in different ways and we now have such a much | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
better church because it is inclusive, because it has the | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
diversity that women have brought and now let's see whether we could | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
also have a little bit of courage and do the same about gay and | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
lesbian people? We have had a text that's come in saying, "Why not form | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
a splinter church that would accommodate their preferences as | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
Gavin suggested? The Church of England is a splinter church from | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
the Catholic Church." What we want is a recognition that there is a | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
diversity of thee logical and pastoral approach to issues of | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
sexuality and we want that to be honoured in the same way that other | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
significant divisions within the church are honoured within the | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
church. Ordination of women, divorce, other things too. We have | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
enormous divergence of theology within the Church of England and one | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
of our geniuses is to learn to live with that and it would be a great | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
witness to the world if progressives and Conservatives within the Church | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
of England were able to do so within the Church of England. Good | :29:13. | :29:14. | |
disagreement is what the bishops were talking about three years ago | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
and that would be a wonderful thing to see. A tweet from Rich saying, | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
"Unless the Church of England changes its attitude to LGBT people. | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
It will die out. It is simple really." Thank you for coming in and | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
talking to us today. Your experience is welcome. You can | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
use the hashtag Victoria live throughout the programme. | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
Conned trying to get her children back. | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
This woman paid thousands to a man who said he could win | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
More than a million children could be living with an alcoholic | :29:47. | :29:54. | |
From the age of eight going to my dad's at the weekend I was | :29:55. | :30:06. | |
effectively the carer. It was typical for my dad to pick me up | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
from school, literally fall over because he was so drunk. | :30:12. | :30:19. | |
We'll hear from some of the children on how it has affected them. | :30:20. | :30:34. | |
A BBC investigation has found evidence of major security failings | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
at a privately-run prison in the North East of England. | :30:38. | :30:39. | |
A reporter from Panorama filmed undercover at the jail | :30:40. | :30:41. | |
in Morpeth, discovered a number of issues, including | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
Sodexo who run the prison says the safety of staff and inmates | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
The Ministry of Justice says it will investigate the footage | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
and the government is committed to reforming prisons. | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
Britain's biggest supermarket, Tesco, has promised | :30:58. | :30:58. | |
action after a BBC investigation revealed two-thirds of deals | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
on the shelves were out of date, and didn't work at the checkout. | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
Over three months a team from BBC Inside Out visited 50 | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
branches of Tesco across England and found multi-buy deals | :31:13. | :31:14. | |
still being advertised days, weeks and in some cases months | :31:15. | :31:16. | |
after the deductions were no longer valid at the till. | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
The supermarket says it's working to make | :31:20. | :31:21. | |
A man from Bury has been charged and did the sparrows serves | :31:22. | :31:55. | |
offences act after a suspicious package was found at Manchester | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
Airport. The body that approves church law, | :31:59. | :32:13. | |
the General Synod of the Church of England, rates today. Much of the | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
debate will centre on the clergy 's response to a report on gay marriage | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
which upholds the traditional definition of marriage as being | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
between a man and a woman. 11 former bishops have accused the Church of | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
ignoring the views of gay Christians. One viewers says, the | :32:28. | :32:36. | |
teaching is based on the Ten Commandments and while having | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
sympathy for gay Christians it cannot allow them to Marin Cilic. | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
Richard says, I am 62, was brought up in the Church of England, was a | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
churchwarden until ten years ago, I am gay and right now despair of the | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
church and I want nothing to do with it because of this message it keeps | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
sending out. Keep sending in your messages. Let's get some sport. | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
The headlines, Joe Root should be confirmed as England test captain | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
today, he is believed to be the clear favourite after Alastair Cook | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
resigned after leading the side. Official figures today show that 39% | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
of players who played in the English football league last season were not | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
drugs tested by the anti-doping organisation. The programme was | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
specialised at the elite end. Claudio Ranieri says he may have | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
been too loyal to his Leicester players, they are now just one point | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
above the bottom three after losing to Swansea yesterday. In Scotland | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
were beaten by France 22-16 in France, the tenth time in a row | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
they've lost in Paris. England on the only unbeaten side after two | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
matches. More about those stories at ten o'clock. See you then. Thank | :33:53. | :34:01. | |
you. I was engrossed in some of your e-mails, I will read those in the | :34:02. | :34:02. | |
next few minutes. This programme has spoken to parents | :34:03. | :34:04. | |
who say they were conned out of thousands of pounds | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
by an organization that had promised The Parents' Voice London advertised | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
paid-for support for people going through the family courts, | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
known as McKenzie Friends. There are now calls | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
for this to be regulated. Our reporer James | :34:18. | :34:19. | |
Melley has the story. I felt like I'd been | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
conned significantly. I felt like my whole world | :34:25. | :34:32. | |
came crashing around me. He promised her that he would | :34:33. | :34:34. | |
get her children back. She was only a young mum, | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
you know, she was devastated There are examples of people | :34:38. | :34:39. | |
simply being ripped off. When families break up | :34:40. | :34:49. | |
and there's a dispute over the custody of children, | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
it can end up in places But because of changes in legal aid, | :34:54. | :34:55. | |
it's now increasingly hard for families to get funding | :34:56. | :35:03. | |
for those kinds of cases. When someone can't afford | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
or doesn't want a solicitor, McKenzie Friends can help people | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
representing themselves in court Anyone can be one, it doesn't | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
require any legal training, but increasingly McKenzie Friends | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
are demanding a fee The company The Parents Voice London | :35:19. | :35:20. | |
did just that, offering McKenzie Friends services | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
for those that paid. Last year, two of its directors, | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
Claire Mann and David Bright, were jailed for perverting | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
the course of justice in one case Now, several parents who paid them | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
thousands of pounds in the hope of getting help to win access | :35:38. | :35:46. | |
to their children are trying Rupinder Randhawa came | :35:47. | :35:48. | |
across David Bright and The Parents Voice | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
when she was fighting a decision Desperate for help, she paid them | :35:53. | :35:54. | |
thousands of pounds. When you got in touch | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
with David Bright in the first So I was not in a great space, | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
but I was still willing to... Your lawyer had told | :36:05. | :36:24. | |
you that there was very little What did David Bright tell | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
you when you spoke to him? That there was hope, | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
and there is something that he could definitely do, | :36:33. | :36:34. | |
and he did cases like this. Did he tell you how | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
successful he is? He told me that he'd | :36:38. | :36:39. | |
never lost a case. I felt encouraged to know | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
that he could possibly bring an opportunity where it is possible | :36:43. | :36:54. | |
for me to have custody She says David Bright | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
charged her ?480 a month and additional one-off fees | :36:57. | :37:11. | |
including ?6,000 to publish But, despite this, Bright | :37:12. | :37:13. | |
and The Parents Voice did How did you feel when you realised | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
that David Bright and The Parents I felt like I'd been | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
conned significantly. Like my whole world came | :37:22. | :37:37. | |
crashing around me, because there was no hope | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
in getting my children back, so... That just ruined everything, | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
it's like a false promise. Somebody had promised to do | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
something and they were not who they said they were, | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
so it just ruined everything, any hope I had left in me, | :37:58. | :38:14. | |
it just sucked every bit of life Quite often when parents | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
separate, one moves away. Jenny Lewington is a | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
McKenzie Friend, she worked with The Parents Voice but quit | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
because she says she She was also concerned about | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
David Bright's working practices. I'd gone to the hearing | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
with a mother who was trying to appeal an adoption, | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
and he'd submitted the wrong form And I rang him and said, | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
"Mum's submitted the wrong form." And I knew that he'd completed | :38:33. | :38:41. | |
the forms and then sent them to the client for signing | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
and sending to court, and he said, "Yes, I know I have, | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
I did it to try and delay matters." Do you think that would | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
have actually helped? This guy had promised this mother | :38:51. | :38:52. | |
that he would get her children back. And they'd already been | :38:53. | :39:09. | |
with the adoptive parents for some time, and I don't think | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
she would have got them back. She'd had a barrister up | :39:13. | :39:14. | |
to Bright got involved, and I think she approached Bright | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
out of desperation to try and get her children back, | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
and he said that he would What kind of impact did David Bright | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
have on the families She just said that he'd promised her | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
that he would get her children back. She was only a young mum, | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
you know, she was devastated The Law Society, which represents | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
solicitors, is calling for a ban on McKenzie Friends being able | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
to claim costs in court cases. We think that this would | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
help to really spell out that a McKenzie Friend is not a qualified | :39:41. | :39:52. | |
lawyer, does not have the training and expertise that a qualified | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
lawyer would have, and therefore should not be regarded as on a par | :39:56. | :39:57. | |
with a qualified lawyer. One of our concerns about the rise | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
in paid-for McKenzie Friends is that a lot of these people | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
are effectively acting as lawyers and advertising | :40:04. | :40:05. | |
themselves as lawyers, even though they do not have legal | :40:06. | :40:07. | |
training and legal qualifications, and they do not have the duties | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
to the court that a qualified If a lawyer were to mislead a court | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
or even allow a court to be misled, that would be a disciplinary offence | :40:14. | :40:23. | |
and they would be struck off. Have you heard of other cases | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
where McKenzie Friends have provided poor service or have | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
otherwise caused problems? There have been anecdotal | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
examples of McKenzie Sometimes it's a case | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
of well-meaning people who just don't have the understanding | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
that they need to in order to be Sometimes it's that they work | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
for an organisation that has a particular agenda, | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
and they put the organisation's agenda ahead of the interests | :40:54. | :40:55. | |
of the individual client. And sometimes there are examples | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
of people simply being ripped off by McKenzie Friends charging quite | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
significant sums, sometimes as much as lawyers would charge, | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
but arguing that lawyers are expensive, you can afford us, | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
therefore you should instruct us. I mean, you've got to watch him | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
in action, he's brilliant. Stephen, whose real name we can't | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
use for legal reasons, spent thousands of pounds | :41:16. | :41:17. | |
with The Parents Voice. A friend suggested he get in touch | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
with David Bright after his ex-wife took custody of their children | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
after the break-up I went to see him in his | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
Southgate office, and there He told me exactly what I wanted | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
to hear, he asked me if I wanted custody, | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
he asked me how much At the point where you | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
approached David Bright, I went in thinking, "There's got | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
to be no-one who can promise me the earth, | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
no-one that's that good." There's obviously solicitors out | :41:50. | :41:51. | |
there that are wonderful, but they cost tens and tens | :41:52. | :41:53. | |
of thousands. Friends of mine have paid half | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
a million in lawyers' fees just to get one inch from their ex-wife, | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
so he came as a welcome surprise because I was told he wasn't that | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
expensive in advance. He asked me for ?1,000 | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
in advance, then monthly ?500, then that would be it, | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
there'd be no other charges. He'll send thousands | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
of letters, if I want. He'll bombard the other side, | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
he would win the case for me. He'll appoint a lawyer that | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
would turn up at court At the time, I was broken, | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
I was really in a low, Psychologically I was exhausted, | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
I didn't know what to do. Stephen claims Bright took | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
around ?12,000 from him by double-billing him, | :42:40. | :42:41. | |
and for work he didn't do. He says since Bright's conviction | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
he's been contacted by other people who feel their money was wrongly | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
taken by The Parents Voice. People that are just | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
so shocked, they've had What he does, he gets them | :42:52. | :43:06. | |
all so close and he makes You know, a lot of these people have | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
violent exes, horrible exes, and the children are always | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
involved, so what he does, he manipulates the parents | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
with the vision of the kids, Like Stephen and several other | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
people, Rupinder Randhawa has won a County Court judgment | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
against David Bright and The Parents Voice | :43:27. | :43:28. | |
for more than ?10,000. She didn't win her children back, | :43:29. | :43:30. | |
and resents the false I'm just looking forward | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
to the future and moving on with my life, doing the things | :43:33. | :43:42. | |
that I should have been doing in the year that I've wasted | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
of doing absolutely nothing David Bright was released | :43:47. | :43:48. | |
from prison last month. We asked him for an interview, | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
but he said no. He told us he denies any wrongdoing, | :43:54. | :43:55. | |
and that he and The Parents Voice had helped hundreds of people | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
with their cases. In making this film, | :44:00. | :44:01. | |
we've heard from several people that have had positive experiences | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
with McKenzie Friends, but senior judges are considering changing | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
the rules for how McKenzie Friends operate, including setting up a code | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
of conduct so those using them in the future will know | :44:12. | :44:13. | |
what to expect. We have had a tweet from Jason | :44:14. | :44:26. | |
saying "He destroyed my life and deserved a longer sentence, family | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
courts need reform as there are too many calls." Mark says, there are | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
good and bad people in all walks of life, many McKenzie Friends | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
fantastic and only focus on what is best for the children. Likewise some | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
solicitors are only interested in the monetary rewards and others are | :44:45. | :44:45. | |
genuine. After 10am we'll speak | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
to a McKenzie Friend Really keen to hear your | :44:49. | :44:50. | |
experience this morning. Coming up, the children | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
of a terminally ill couple who died of cancer within days of each other | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
have shared this moving photograph of their parents' | :44:57. | :44:58. | |
last moments together. We'll speak to a family | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
friend before 11am. It's thought more than | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
a million children could be living with an alcoholic | :45:08. | :45:09. | |
or drug-dependent parent. Every single hour the NSPCC receives | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
a call from an adult who is concerned about alcohol | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
or drugs being used around children. But is enough being | :45:16. | :45:17. | |
done to help them? Earlier this month the Labour MP | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
Jon Ashworth spoke in Parliament about his experience of growing up | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
with an alcoholic father. He urged ministers to do more | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
to stop children with similar His testimony was so powerful it | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
brought the Health Minister, My parents divorced | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
when I was about seven or eight. They divorced, to be frank | :45:36. | :45:43. | |
and candid, because of the strain that my father's alcoholism | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
placed on marriage. In the week, I would live | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
with my mum and at weekends And my dad would spend | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
the whole weekend drunk. In fact, from the age | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
of eight or so, going to my dad's at the weekend, | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
I was effectively the carer. It would be very typical for my dad | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
to pick me up from school, literally fall over, | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
because he was so drunk. I recall - because this | :46:15. | :46:16. | |
wasn't the days of mobile phones and so on - | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
going to the phone box to order It wasn't far to walk, to be fair, | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
but we couldn't walk up Or I would go back to my dad's | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
on Friday after school, open the fridge, as you do | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
when you get home from school and you want to eat probably some | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
chocolate biscuits, whatever. And the fridge being completely | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
empty, apart from these huge big And it was my job as a ten-year-old, | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
11-year-old, 12-year-old, 13-year-old, to go down to the shops | :46:48. | :47:03. | |
to get the food in for the weekend And there were loads of occasions, | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
or similar stories. Christmas, my dad wasn't | :47:08. | :47:16. | |
bothered about Christmas. I was going, I remember going | :47:17. | :47:33. | |
through them all. The shame. The embarrassment particularly as a | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
teenager. The anger as well. But I always loved my dad and he always | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
loved me. And we were lucky, he was never violent and never abusive. | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
There are millions of children or hundreds of thousands of children | :47:55. | :47:56. | |
who are not in that lucky situation. Great social change requires | :47:57. | :48:07. | |
three things, I think. It requires long-term political | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
will, it requires nonpartisan And I've heard all | :48:10. | :48:11. | |
three of those today. And I hope that each member who has | :48:12. | :48:21. | |
spoken here today will continue to work with me as we fight | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
on to tackle this social injustice. That was the health Minister moved | :48:25. | :48:45. | |
to tears by what Jon Ashworth had to say. | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
And here to share their experiences of growing up with a parent | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
who abused drugs and alcohol is 29-year-old Josh Connolly, | :48:53. | :48:54. | |
whose dad was an alcoholic and died when he was nine. | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
25-year-old Jade Bailey, whose father was addicted to drugs | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
21-year-old Sarah, in Liverpool, whose father is an alcoholic. | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
We're not using her surname to protect his identity. | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
Thank you for talking to us today. I imagine this is really difficult. | :49:14. | :49:21. | |
Josh, your dad died when you were nine. What are your memories of your | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
childhood? To be honest because I guess because of how traumatic a lot | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
of it was. It's difficult for me to recall like proper sort of visual | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
memories of the things that went on. I tend to only really remember a lot | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
of the bad things. And also the feelings. That's what stayed with me | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
all my life and that's still tan jable today the way that my dad's | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
drinking and everything that comes with that made me feel. So what was | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
normal for you? Give us a sense of what a normal day would be like | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
around your dad. My dad was a chaotic alcoholic. So with my dad | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
you never knew what he was going to get from one day to the next. I will | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
give you an example. It was a heatwave one summer and we had gone | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
to a park and it was jam-packed full of people and my dad was drinking | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
from cans and was visibly drunk and it was midday and he was walking | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
along urinating as he walked and I can remember like a six or | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
seven-year-old boy walking five or ten yards in front of him, but | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
feeling a deep sense of shame, but also guilt that I couldn't stand | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
next to my dad in alliance and to protect my dad and then anger, anger | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
at everybody looking and the shame that it was making me feel, but the | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
anger was never directed towards my dad in my case, I directed it | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
outwards. So I grew up with quite a strong sort of dislike to the rest | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
of the world really. Jade, your mum and dad split up when | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
you were quite little, didn't they? Yes. I know you saw your dad at | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
weekends, but from the age of six he used to take drugs around you? Well, | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
it's probably from the age I don't even remember. Really. My mum never | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
knew. When I used to go there on the weekends, him and his friends, it | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
was a little flat and him and his friends used to take drugs around me | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
and call it their medicine and I knew, I knew, it was never right and | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
it was never a medicine. I remember them going into the bathroom and I | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
can picture it now going into the bathroom and doing it and coming out | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
and them all being off their face and I would just go upstairs to the | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
hairdresser's which atamped to the flat. My dad was a DJ and I would | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
listen to the DJ music that he had. What sort of drugs was he talking? | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
He started on the basics. Well, I say the basics, but so you've got | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
weed and ecstasy and things like that and then he went on to heroin. | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
When he went on to heroin I was about ten years old. And he was a | :52:06. | :52:13. | |
mess. I mean our fun time on a weekend, and I hate to admit it, our | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
fun time at the weekend was going to the skip and trying to find toys. I | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
thought it was amazing. My dad was always my hero and if anything, he | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
always will be because he made me how I am now so after I eventually | :52:30. | :52:38. | |
told my mum, my dad takes this medicine with his friends she knew | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
what was going and didn't stop contact, I could always speak to him | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
if I wanted to, but it was sparse on his part. I always kind of had to | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
make the effort, but I didn't spend time at his house anymore. What does | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
it do to you as a child so young six or younger, seeing your dad doing | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
that and understanding that it's not right? The reason why I begun to | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
speak out about it is because I've never had one answer made by him. I | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
never had that question answered by him and it is why was I not enough | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
to make you stop? Why as a child do you not love me enough to stop and | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
to be my dad? Because he knew how much I adored him and I knew he | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
adored me. I knew that I was the only thing that he cared about in | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
his life apart from the drug. I knew I was everything to him and he was | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
to me. Which is why it was so hard for my mum and she was incredible. | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
They were only 16 when they had me. So she completely, we grew up | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
together if anything and it's, it makes you feel very alone like | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
you're not enough, and abandoned by them, but you love them so much that | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
you just can't, you can't ever leave them no matter what they do, you | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
know that they're sick. It's not that they, not that they're weak. | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
Not that they're, he wasn't a bad man. He was just very, very sick. | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
With the addiction and unfortunately that fled on to me, but it made me a | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
better person today which is strange to say, but I'm antidrug. I speak | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
out to a lot of younger people who are going through it and help them | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
through the process as well and it's just, I'm a little less emotional | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
now. I don't really have many emotions. I feel like I'm very numb | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
from my younger years, but I'm a stronger person for it. As you're | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
talking I can see that Josh is nodding away and I want to bring in | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
Sarah as well. Sarah you're listening to Josh and to Jade. Do | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
you see similarities in their stories with what you've been | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
through? Yeah, definitely, especially Jade's. I agree with it | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
and it makes you a stronger person and more braver and resill zant to | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
life challenges. Your dad is an alcoholic. Explain what your | :55:00. | :55:06. | |
childhood was like. Well, in my early years it was more happy | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
memories of my dad because he brought me up so it kind of made it | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
harder when he turned to alcohol because I couldn't understand why he | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
turned to alcohol. And then it made me more hard tore walk away because | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
I missed the old dad he was. So I would have to look after him when I | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
came home from school and I kind of always wish, I wanted the old dad | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
back, the one that he was when I was little. How hard was it for you to | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
be collecting him from the pub after he was drinking or getting him out | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
of bed to go to work when you're just a child? I found it quite | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
embarrassing. So I think that's why I never told anyone. And it would | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
always, sometimes he wouldn't come home from the pub or I would be | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
waiting up all night for him to get home because I could never sleep | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
unless I knew he was home safe and then I would always be tired getting | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
up for school. So it was quite emotionally and mentally draining | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
for a kid to have to go through that. You talked about the emotion | :56:14. | :56:21. | |
of it and the embarrassment which is something that I have not really | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
thought about. My dad, because obviously, I went to school in the | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
area where he lived. I didn't live in the same area and he used to, | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
when he was high on the drugs, he used to use my name against people. | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
He would say, my daughter Jade will beat you up when you get to school. | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
I used to have girls come up to me at school ready to fight saying your | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
dad is going around telling everyone and they all knew he was a drug | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
addict. They all knew what he was doing. So without me, my closest | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
friends know about my situation, but they don't know in detail. It is | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
only in the last couple of months that I've spoken out at all. So, if | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
anything, he told people more than I did because he put me in that | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
position. So when you've, when you're 13 years old and girls are | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
coming up wanting to fight because your dad who you barely see is | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
putting your name out there that you're going to attack them. I | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
wouldn't attack anyone. It wasn't the greatest feeling. I was ashamed | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
that he would do that to me. It broke my heart at the same time that | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
he would put me in danger. Yet you say you love him. I want to bring in | :57:34. | :57:40. | |
Jon Ashworth MP. We have had a tweet from Pamela saying this story | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
brought me to tears. How brave is Jon for sharing this moving story. | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
Jon, it must have been difficult for you to stand up in the Commons and | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
talk about this. It was very difficult and it is more difficult | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
listening to it because as I'm listening to it, there is huge part | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
of me feeling like I betrayed my dad and I shouldn't have said what I | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
said. It's very difficult. Part of me is regretting saying it. But | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
another part of my thinks we have got to speak out because there is | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
too many children who are suffering in silence because they've got a | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
parent who abuses alcohol or drugs and it is something that we've not | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
really talked about as a society before. We've not really put in | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
place the measures to support them. When I listen back to the speech | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
just now, there is part of me feeling very guilty about speaking | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
out, there is another part of me thinking I have got a job with | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
responsibility now and I want to do something with that job and if I can | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
make a difference for children of alcoholics then at least I've done | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
something important in life. Jon, if it helps you, Jade and Josh in the | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
studio are nodding when you were talking about feeling that you'd let | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
your dad down, betrayed him in some way, but of course, ut haven't and | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
you've clearly succeeded in life. You have been successful. What | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
impact did the way your dad behave have on you? Did you make you | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
stronger? Well, I mean, who knows? I will leave that to the | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
psychologists. You must have an idea of the way it impacted on you? It | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
made me determined in life to do things. My dad was never violent. He | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
was never abusive. If anything, the problem with my dad's drinking was, | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
everybody liked him. Everybody thought he was funny, good company, | :59:29. | :59:37. | |
you know, what a laugh, good old John Ash, nobody saw it as a | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
problem, isn't he great fun when he had a drink? Yes, he was great fun, | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
but I was the person who had to pick it all up or sort things out and it | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
ebbed and flowed throughout my childhood years. Sometimes it was | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
very bad. Sometimes it was manageable, but I suppose I think it | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
made me determined. It made me want to change things in life. I was | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
lucky. He was never violent, abusive, he was never horrible to | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
people. He was a sort of a happy drunk if you like, but in some ways, | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
that made him want to drink more because people liked him when he was | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
drunk if you know what I mean? You said before that you would not | :00:19. | :00:34. | |
take drugs, I wonder what it did to you, Sarah, what is your | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
relationship to drink and drugs? I always feel nervous when I am around | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
drunk people so I tend not to drink too much because it reminds me of | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
looking after my dad and the embarrassment and shame and sadness | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
so I try to stay away from it. For me it was slightly different to the | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
others who have spoken, I went on to have troubles with alcohol myself. I | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
think it's important to recognise the different roles children take on | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
within the family, often children become the caregivers. There were | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
three of us kids in our family and I became the mask and within the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
family, so I found my place in life by trying to make others happy, I | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
always wanted to make sure my mum was OK so I kind of active the clown | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
and that was where I found my place in life. -- acted the clown. It | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
became a co-dependency thing. I wanted more than anything do not | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
become an alcoholic. But for me when I was 12 or 13 and I found alcohol | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
it became the perfect escape route, it really worked, to some degree, it | :01:44. | :01:52. | |
gave me the escape that I needed. I was never really able to look after | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
my dad or do anything like that. So I kind of felt lost in the world so | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
at school I am acting in the clown and at home trying to be the best me | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
so alcohol gave me an escape from that. Thank you so much for coming | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
in, all of you. It is very, very hard to be so open so we really | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
appreciate that. And by the way at last night's | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
Baftas, the actor Casey Affleck spoke about his experience of having | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
a parent who struggled with alcohol when he picked up his award | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
for Best Actor for his role The reason that I act, | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
it's because when I was a young kid, my mother would take me | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
to the Al-Anon meetings And there would be lots of kids | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
there and they would re-enact the person at their home | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
who they were trying to understand. It was therapy, but it was | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
acting, and it was... And acting has sort of been | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
that for me ever since. More on the BAFTAs | :02:55. | :03:04. | |
later in the programme. If you're affected by alcoholism | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
or addiction, you can find a list of charaties which may be able | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
to help on the BBC's Action Line. Now the weather with Carol. Today is | :03:10. | :03:23. | |
windy in the West, especially the coasts of Wales and the south-west, | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
severe gales, maybe some transport disruption. A little sunshine coming | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
through across most of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, down the | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
coast of Scotland and east coast of England we will keep the cloud and | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
despite temperatures in double figures it will feel cold wherever | :03:42. | :03:42. | |
you are. I'm Chloe Tilley, in for | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
Victoria Derbyshire. The Ministry of Justice says it is | :03:51. | :04:02. | |
investigating allegations of security failings that a privately | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
run prison in north-eastern England as BBC undercover filming reveals a | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
world of violence and drugs were the prisoners are in charge. | :04:11. | :04:27. | |
In the next few minutes we will speak to a former prisoner who says | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
85% of people in the prison he was then what on the drug spice. | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
The children of a terminally ill couple who died of cancer | :04:41. | :04:42. | |
within days of each other have shared this photograph of their | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
We will speak to a family friend, later. | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
And Adele cleans up the main awards at the Grammys and gets teary | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
Winning this feels like coming full circle, I feel a bit of me has come | :04:52. | :05:03. | |
back, I feel I cannot accept this award, for me, the Lemonade album | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
was so monumental. A BBC investigation has found | :05:06. | :05:18. | |
evidence of major security failings at a privately run prison | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
in the North East of England. Panorama filmed undercover | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
at the jail in Morpeth and discovered a number of problems, | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
including inmates using drugs. Sodexo, who run the prison says | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
the safety of staff and inmates The Ministry of Justice says it | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
will investigate the footage and the government is committed | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
to reforming prisons. I cannot react the way I want to | :05:38. | :05:48. | |
because there is not back up there Britain's biggest supermarket, | :05:49. | :06:07. | |
Tesco, has promised action after a BBC investigation | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
revealed two-thirds of deals on the shelves were out of date, | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
and didn't work at the checkout. Over three months, a team from BBC | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
Inside Out visited 50 branches of Tesco across England | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
and found multi-buy deals still being advertised days, | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
weeks and in some cases months after the deductions were no | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
longer valid at the till. The supermarket says | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
it's working to make A man from Bury in Greater | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
Manchester has been charged with an offence under | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
the Explosive Substances Act aftera suspicious package was found | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
at an airport. 43-year-old Nadeem Muhammed | :06:39. | :06:40. | |
is accused of making It follows the discovery | :06:41. | :06:42. | |
of a suspicious package The body that approves church law, | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
the General Synod of the Church Much of the debate is likely | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
to centre on the clergy's response to a report on gay marriage, | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
which upholds a traditional definition of marriage | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
as being between a man and a woman. A group of retired bishops have | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
written an open letter, accusing the Church of ignoring | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
the views of gay Christians. Parents have told this programme | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
they were conned out of thousands of pounds by an organisation that | :07:17. | :07:18. | |
claimed it could win The Parents' Voice London | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
is a service that provided Mckenzie Friends are | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
people who generally but provide support for those | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
going through the family courts. The company charged | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
for their services. There are now calls | :07:37. | :07:37. | |
for this to be regulated. Firefighters in Australia | :07:38. | :07:48. | |
are still battling around 100 Several homes and trees | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
have been destroyed, but so far there are no reports | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
of any casualties. Australia has been experiencing | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
a record heatwave with temperatures as high as 47 degrees - | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
forecasters are warning conditions could become dangerous again | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
by the end of the week. Hollywood musical La La Land | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
dominated this year's Baftas The film won five trophies in all, | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
including best film and best actress There were also awards for the film | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
Lion, including best supporting Ken Loach's I, Daniel Blake | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
was named outstanding British film. Casey Affleck was named best actor | :08:21. | :08:29. | |
for Manchester by the Sea, and Viola Davis won best supporting | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
actress prize for Fences. That's a summary of the latest BBC | :08:33. | :08:42. | |
News - more at 10.30. Joe Root is expected to be named | :08:43. | :08:55. | |
England's test captain today, the Yorkshire batsman would succeed | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
Alastair Cook, was captain for more than four years. Freddie Flintoff | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
says Root is the obvious choice. You have to say Joe Root is probably the | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
only candidate, the way he plays and the way he goes about his business | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
you would imagine will lead itself to being a great captain. Look at | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
Virat Kohli for India. Joe Root is in the same class as a player and a | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
similar person so he would get my backing every time. Official figures | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
show that 39% of players who played in the English football league last | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
season were not officially tested for doping. Samples were taken from | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
players appearing in the league in the last season, the Football | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
Association say they have prioritised the anti-doping | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
programme at the elite end. Claudio Ranieri says he may need to change | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
things at Leicester, the Premier League champions facing relegation | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
battle following their defeat to Swansea. This volley gave the home | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
side the lead. Just before half-time Swansea added a second. And this win | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
the for Swansea moves them up to 15th in the table but it is a fifth | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
defeat in a row for Leicester. After the match Claudio Ranieri was asked | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
if he had been too loyal to his title winning players. Could be. Of | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
course, it is difficult, when you achieve something so good, you want | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
to give them one chance, two chances, three chances, maybe now is | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
too much. Chelsea ten points clear at the top of the Premier League but | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
only managed a draw at Burnley. It took just seven minutes for Chelsea | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
to take the lead, Pedro with the opener. But then look at there is a | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
brilliant free kick from Burnley's new signing, Robbie Brady, levelling | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
the game at 1-1. I don't know, it's not important for me. One more point | :10:58. | :11:05. | |
in the table. It's the most important thing. One point, two | :11:06. | :11:14. | |
points coming in the feature you can see this. Rangers into the last | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
eight of the Scottish cup after coming from behind to beat Greenock | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
Morton 2-1. Martyn Waghorn won and for Rangers in their first match | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
after the departure of Mark Warburton, their manager, last week. | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
And in the six Nations Scotland were narrowly beaten by France in Paris, | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
their tenth successive defeat in the French capital. Scotland twice went | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
ahead through tries from Stuart hog and this one from Tim Swinson. But | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
five penalties from Lopez did the damage with France holding on to | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
win, 22-16. England on the only unbeaten side in the tournament. The | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
headlines at 1030. Chloe. Thanks, Will. | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
Widespread drug use, a lack of control, door | :12:10. | :12:11. | |
alarms that don't go off, a hole in an internal security | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
fence, prisoners possibly sneaking out to collect drugs or other | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
contraband thrown over the perimeter fence, | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
inmates incapacitated by drugs, threatening staff....and in one | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
particularly disturbing scene - a prison officer having convulsions | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
on the floor after accidentally inhaling spice, a cheap and stronger | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
That's what the BBC discovered when it carried out secret filming | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
So does that reflect what goes on in jails across the country? | :12:38. | :14:41. | |
We can speak now to James Bell, who has been in and out | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
of prison for 26 years - he was last inside in April, | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
and was addicted to Spice on his last two times in prison. | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
James Parker is from the Rehabilitation for | :14:52. | :14:52. | |
And David, who spent more than 20 years working as a prison officer | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
and has seen first-hand what happens to people who take the drug. | :15:00. | :15:01. | |
He doesn't want us to use his surname. | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
Also we can speak to Bill, who has got in touch, he is a viewer who has | :15:06. | :15:13. | |
been in and out of prison for most of his life and was lost inside | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
prison just over three months ago. Thank you all for coming to talk to | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
us. I want to speak to Bill first, if we can. You were last in prison | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
three months ago. What was it like them, compared to the last time you | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
were in prison which I understand was a number of years ago? I started | :15:33. | :15:40. | |
prison in 1976 right up to 2006, I've spent 26 years of my life in | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
most prisons in the country, I was in Strangeways and everything. I | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
stayed out for ten years but I lapsed and I ended up back in | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
Rochester prison. And it traumatised me. | :15:53. | :16:03. | |
The staff were so overworked and under staffed and they don't control | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
the prison. The prisoners control the prison. Spice is rife. Drones | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
are the main cause of drugs coming into prisons and it is a very | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
different environment than what it was in the 70s and 80s and 90s. It | :16:18. | :16:25. | |
actually acts as a deterrent never to go back to prison. It is | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
horrendous. There is a back of positive activities for the inmates | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
to do due to staff shortages. There is a lack of therapy due to staff | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
shortages. There is a lack of lock-in due to staff shortages. And | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
I can't see any way for it changing unless the Government really pull | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
their finger out, you know, and do something and reform the prisons. I | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
can emphasise, I think it was James on there, I tried spice once and I'd | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
never go near the stuff again. It is horrendous stuff. Bill explain to | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
people who have heard of spice, but don't know what it does to you. What | :17:05. | :17:13. | |
effect did it have on you? I smoked cannabis for 41 years and I gave it | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
up two years ago of the but spice, they advertise it as an alternative | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
to cannabis, but it is nothing like cannabis. I believe it is made from | :17:23. | :17:31. | |
fish. I took three dregs and I thought I was going to have a heart | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
attack. I started sweating and I felt really ill. I thought there was | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
no way I'm doing that again. I tried it once. It was Christmas and I'd | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
never do it again. I have seen people change from being positive, | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
fit, healthy, good looking to like, you know, grey, white shells who | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
become extremely violent if they haven't got it. I think it is like | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
crack. I call it green crack because it is so addictive and a lot of | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
prisoners are running around to get it. The reason they are getting it | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
because there is nothing for them to do. Sometimes you're locked up for | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
23 hours a day and it makes you angry and frustrated. I have seen | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
some people, they have been on spice and they get involved in therapy | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
things and they change. And they go to work and they change. But because | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
of the under staffing and I think, no, listen, years ago, I fought | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
prison officers, it was us and them, but now I sympathize with the prison | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
officers because they're losing control. Nobody above them is | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
listening and I feel sorry for them and I've noticed while I was in | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
Rochester there is a lot of young prison officers starting, but within | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
three months they'd leave because they couldn't cope with the job. | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
They would come in thinking they were going to do some good and help | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
prisoners reform. I want to bring in James. You mentioned James Bell and | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
he was talking about you used spice. Can you identify with what Bill was | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
saying, the effect it has on you? Totally. I think Bill hit the nail | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
on the head just how prison has changed over the years. I remember | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
in the 90s it was different. There was still a drug problem, it is just | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
that things have got more chaotic and the drugs have changed. Again, | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
staff shortages. You know, all these elements are just creating more | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
problems. For me personally, my experience of spice was to pass the | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
time, you know, because I battled addiction for 25 years that was all | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
I knew, drugs. And prison to me was just an occupational hazard really | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
and that was a way of making money in prison, you know, using drugs, | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
using spice, selling spice, and I think that's the mentality now of | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
the prison system where people who are in prison and for the first | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
time, you know, I have been clean now for under a year. So, but again, | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
it was the staff shortages because I wanted help. I went into prison the | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
last time and it was like wow, this is chaos. So halfs it like? Give us | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
an idea of an average day on your wing in prison? Average day. Pretty | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
mundane really. You're up for breakfast. If you're going to | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
education, again, which is one day and I have done it that many times | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
over the years, I'd stop listening or people just weren't participating | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
in the education and it was basic so it became bored. If I was let out my | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
cell, if not, I would be banged up for 23 hours a day just watching TV | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
so I wanted something to talk me away from that. It is that escapism? | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
For me, it was. David was a prison officer for 24 years and left over a | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
year ago. What Bill and James are telling us is effectively prisoners | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
are running prisons. There are not enough prison officers there and it | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
is out of control. Do colleagues agree with that? Absolutely, yes, | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
100%. I started 24 years ago and we would have four members of staff on | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
a landing. Now you're lucky if there is one. So, I speak to one of my | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
friends and he's telling me they're unlocking the wing that I used to | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
work on with four members of staff to unlock 200 prisoners. It's | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
frightening. Some people will be watching thinking how on earth, | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
James has already said, 85% of people he believes at the jail he | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
was in, were on spice. How is that quantity getting into prison? It | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
comes over the wall. It comes in through parcels. It comes in hidden, | :21:55. | :22:04. | |
secreted in prisoners. And the prison officers know this, but are | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
simply overwhelmed and can't do anything about it? The cuts in the | :22:08. | :22:16. | |
staffing have changed the searching policies. They do get very good | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
results with target searching. There is no random searching anymore. Or | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
there wasn't when I was there. It is slowly, slowly being eroded and | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
yeah, I agree with the two other guys. The prisoners are taking | :22:32. | :22:40. | |
control of the prisons. James, I want to bring you in. Is | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
this simply about numbers of prison officers? We've got a former prison | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
officer there and we have heard from two former inmates saying this is | :22:51. | :22:52. | |
about numbers. Do you think it is about numbers or is it more than | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
that? Lack of numbers, as a charity that runs drug and alcohol treatment | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
services we can't have our services properly enabled so for instance the | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
experience that James had, even if he was in a prison that offered a | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
treatment programme there isn't the officers there to unlock everybody | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
so they can participate in the rehabilitation side of prison. Lots | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
of prisoners look for help. If we haven't got the resources there to | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
enable the services, the security, the safety that's there, then as a | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
provider of those services you just get incredibly frustrated and you | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
feel the frustration for the people that you're commissioned to help. We | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
are commissioned to help people like James when he was in prison and I | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
think that's where the whole system needs to review what are we trying | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
to do with prisons the moment? Are we actually looking at what bill | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
tation and rehabilitation so people can change their lives which is our | :23:48. | :23:58. | |
whole focus. Some prisoners in their education if you like, the way to be | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
rehabilitated was to colour this Pepa Pig. Is that unusual? No. Not | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
at all. Or playing cards. That's what we did because again, the staff | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
shortages and I think you go through it that many times. Prison is like a | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
revolving door for a lot of prisoners. It is the same like | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
programme all the time of education. There needs to be rehabilitation and | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
recovery wings and the support really, but it is all the different | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
services in the system which are running from cuts and shortages so | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
then we miss out. The ones who do want to change. I wanted to change. | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
And have done so congratulationsment you turned your life around for the | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
last year. Thank you so much all of you for coming in. | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
You can see that Panorama in full tonight at 8.30pm on BBC One | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
Adele stole the show at the Grammy's overnight - | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
not just for her stunning performance and haul of awards - | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
but also for having to stop her performance as she paid tribute | :25:10. | :25:11. | |
It's the second time she's faced technical hitches whilst | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
I know it's live TV, I'm sorry, I need to start again. | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
I'm sorry for swearing and I'm sorry for starting again. | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
I'm sorry, I can't mess this up for him. | :25:29. | :25:37. | |
Her second attempt was, of course, flawless, | :25:38. | :25:53. | |
and received a standing ovation from the audience | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
at the Staples Centre in Los Angeles. | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
She went on to win five - count them - five Grammys, | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
but said Beyonce should have won album of the year over her. | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
Producers Danger Mouse, Samuel Dickson... | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
My artist of my life is Beyonce and this album, for | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
me, the Lemonade album, was just so monumental. | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
And the way that you may me and my friends feel, | :26:23. | :26:34. | |
the way you make my black friends feel, is empowering, | :26:35. | :26:36. | |
and you make them stand up for themselves and I love you. | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
There is a curse that will be broken. | :26:40. | :26:56. | |
My intention for the film and album was to create a body of work that | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
would give a voice to our pain, our struggles, our darkness and our | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
To confront issues that make us uncomfortable. | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
I just want to thank President Agent Orange | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
for perpetuating all of the evil that you have perpetuated | :27:17. | :27:18. | |
Shout outs to every independent artist out there. | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
Shout outs to Soundcloud for holding me down. | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
That was Chicago's Chance the Rapper, who won three Grammys, | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
By the way, this is Gnarls Barkley singer CeeLo Green, who you'll | :27:33. | :27:45. | |
know for his song Crazy, as he arrived at the Grammys last | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
night in a particularly crazy outfit - part Tin Man, | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
And, of course, it was also the BATFAs last night. | :27:52. | :28:06. | |
La La land, the Hollywood musical, was the big winner with five awards, | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
including best film and best actress for Emma Stone. | :28:10. | :28:11. | |
When I was a young kid, my mother would | :28:12. | :28:24. | |
take me to the Al-Anon meetings for children of alcoholics | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
and there would be lots of kids there and they would re-enact the | :28:28. | :28:36. | |
person at their home who they were trying to understand. | :28:37. | :28:38. | |
It was therapy, but it was acting, and it | :28:39. | :28:40. | |
And acting has sort of been that the ever since. | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
They can entertain, they can terrify, they can take us | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
to worlds of the imagination, they can make us laugh and they can tell | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
something about the real world we live in. | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
August answers that question so brilliantly. | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
Because what he did is he said that our | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
that lives mattered as African Americans. | :29:06. | :29:15. | |
And the BAFTA goes to Dev Patel for Lion. | :29:16. | :29:17. | |
Please welcome to the stage Mel Brooks. | :29:18. | :29:32. | |
I think BAFTA has made good choices to diet, especially me. | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
I want to apologise to the Duke and the Duchess and Prince Philip | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
There is the costume! I'm guessing it is a mask. I'm guessing he just | :29:40. | :30:01. | |
wanted us to talk about it. I guess he has succeeded. | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
Let's get some analysis of all of last night's celebrity | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
news with Hollywood journalist Jeanne Wolf, who watched | :30:10. | :30:11. | |
every second of last night's Grammy awards. | :30:12. | :30:12. | |
Let's talk about Adele. I saw things on Twitter saying she had actually | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
split her award in half. Is that true? It is true. Here is what | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
happens. Once you win the award and we saw when she won that third award | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
how flustered she was and how she almost wanted to give it over to | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
Beyonce and she said she wished she hadn't won it. When you finish, you | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
go backstage and they take photographs of you and you go to the | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
press room and in the press room she appeared with her Grammy in two | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
pieces saying, "This has to go to Beyonce. Album of the year was Lemon | :30:49. | :30:57. | |
in aid." She just felt very funny about it. Of course, she accepted | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
it. Five years ago, she won the five big awards at the Grammys and now, | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
with the album 25, she has done it again. | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
Do we know if Beyonce took the bit of the award that she snapped off? | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
Well, I think we'll read all about that in the morning! I'm sure | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
they'll meet up at parties if Beyonce in her condition feels like | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
going dancing! But in any case, no Adele wanted to make a very public, | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
very talked about gesture. Talking about Beyonce of course, in her | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
condition, she is several months pregnant. She sat on a chair and it | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
went back in one of he amazing performances. It was incredible. | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
Tell us about the other big winners of the night. | :31:47. | :31:54. | |
You will read the full list of winners, the once people are talking | :31:55. | :32:03. | |
about our Dell and Beyonce. The others were evenly spread around and | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
there was a lot of talk about how political the night would be and how | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
the performances would be, there were tributes and performances, | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
winners all over the place. There is a two our show before the show goes | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
on air, so many awards are given out that night. Beyonce did win a couple | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
of Grammy awards but when it came to the big ones, it was all Adele. You | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
know that she started singing her tribute song to George Michael and | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
felt that she was off key, said a swear word, apologised more than you | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
would expect from an artist, and Sergei had to start again, and when | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
she did she was amazing. So all the conversation today, everyone else is | :32:47. | :32:55. | |
eclipsed, in their own minds, you will have heard the speech is, it | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
takes a lot to stick to being a musician. Your pride in your music, | :33:01. | :33:09. | |
and the music industry puts barriers at every point. And she is a mother, | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
she does this all with a child. They you for speaking to us. | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
Legendary director Ken Loach picked up the award for Best British film | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
for I, Daniel Blake, about the UK's welfare system. | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
You can see our exclusive interview with him last | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
week on the programme page - bbc.co.uk/victoria. | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
We are a little late again, but here is Ben with the news. Thank you. A | :33:34. | :33:44. | |
BBC investigation has found major security failings at a privately run | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
prison in north-east England, panorama found a number of problems | :33:50. | :33:57. | |
including inmates using drugs, the organisation that runs the prison | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
says safety is as priority. The Ministry of Justice is to | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
investigate the footage and says the government is committed to reforming | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
prisons. The Co-op bank is up for sale. It has over 4 million | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
customers but almost collapsed in 2013 after financial problems. Since | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
then it has been run by private investment companies who say they | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
have now made considerable progress in turning the business around. | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
Almost 200,000 people in Northern California are being evacuated from | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
their homes after the tallest dam in the USA was weakened by heavy | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
rainfall. Officials feared the Oroville dam could be about to | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
collapse after a giant hole developed in the overflow channel. | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
Crews using helicopters have dropped rocks to fill the hole in the | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
spillway and the excess water has stopped flowing. That's the latest | :34:48. | :34:56. | |
news. Join me for BBC Newsroom live at 11am. Now the sport with Will. | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
Breaking news, it has been confirmed that Joe Root will be named | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
England's test captain at 11am. The Yorkshire batsman will succeed | :35:08. | :35:09. | |
Alastair Cook who resigned after more than four years in charge last | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
week. A press conference will be held at Headingley on Wednesday. | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
Official figures today show that 39% of players in the English football | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
league last season were not drugs tested by UK anti-doping. | :35:23. | :35:39. | |
The FA say it prioritised its anti-doping programme at the elite | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
end. Claudio Ranieri says he may have been too loyal to his Leicester | :35:44. | :35:45. | |
players with Ed Premier League title defence now a relegation battle, | :35:46. | :35:47. | |
they one point above the bottom three after losing yesterday at | :35:48. | :35:49. | |
Swansea. France beat Scotland 22-16 in the six Nations, the tenth time | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
in a row Scotland have lost in Paris. England on the only unbeaten | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
side in the tournament after two games. More news on the BBC News | :35:56. | :35:56. | |
channel throughout the day. You. Parents have told this programme | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
they were conned out of thousands of pounds by an organisation that | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
claimed it could win The Parents' Voice London offered | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
McKenzie Friend services. They're people who generally aren't | :36:06. | :36:07. | |
legally trained and are meant to provide support for those | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
going through the family courts. Two of the company's directors, | :36:11. | :36:12. | |
David Bright and Claire Mann, were jailed last year for perverting | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
the course of justice. There are now calls for regulations | :36:16. | :36:28. | |
of McKenzie Friends. We can speak to Amanda MacPherson, herself a | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
McKenzie Friend charges clients, and Derek Sweeting QC from the bar | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
Council which represents barristers in England and Wales. | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
People may not know who McKenzie Friends R. They are helping people | :36:43. | :36:52. | |
who go through any court and represent themselves, they have | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
chosen to do away with traditional representation, perhaps because of | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
cost or perhaps because they choose to speak for themselves. And you do | :37:00. | :37:07. | |
what, fill-in forms? Yes, McKenzie Friends will complete forms for | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
parents, will take them through the process, often give them more | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
support than a solicitor would, and can attend court with them and sit | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
beside them, often not able to speak directly to the court or to the | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
judge, but sometimes given permission to do that. What are you | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
charging? Most of the advice I give, in fact all the advice I give is | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
free. I don't charge a penny for advising throughout the case. But I | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
do charge for its direct work. 45p an hour is my rate. And expenses | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
like travel which is half my hourly rate. Which is a fraction of the | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
cost that parents would incur through a solicitor or a barrister. | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
Derek, what are your concerns with McKenzie Friends services? This is | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
an area of operation caused by the withdrawal of legal aid and what you | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
are getting is someone who people don't appreciate is not regulated, | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
that means no training, no knowledge of the law, not insured, no redress | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
if things go wrong you can't report them to the legal ombudsman, there | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
is no regulator and you are not getting anyone who can stand up and | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
speak for you in court. That is a misconception. And often, when they | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
do charge, not all McKenzie Friends tube and when they do they sometimes | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
charge similar amounts to what a barrister or solicitor would charge. | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
Do you have any qualifications? I don't, I have none. Some people | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
might be worried by that. Of course. They may well. Anyone looking for a | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
McKenzie Friend should check out the person they want to use, ask them | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
what their experience is, ask if they can speak to clients who have | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
used them before and they should be absolutely confident that this | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
person knows what they are doing. Should there be greater regulation? | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
This is what we are waiting to hear. We're waiting to hear if there will | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
be greater regulation. Myself, I wouldn't be averse to regulation. I | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
think it should be done in close consultation with clients, people | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
looking to use McKenzie Friends, and McKenzie Friends themselves and the | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
judiciary. In my experience judges often welcome the assistance of a | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
McKenzie Friend, especially in cases where both parties are not | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
represented, they are on their own. What the judiciary also expressed | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
their reservations about is whether there ought to be paid McKenzie | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
Friends because this is one area where unscrupulous people like the | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
ones we heard about, find it easy to operate because there is no | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
supervision, there is no regulation. But then it helps people who don't | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
have much money and can't afford enormous legal bills that sometimes | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
people face. That is a misconception, of course there are | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
McKenzie Friends who are competent and experienced like Amanda and they | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
perform a good service for many people. But and is a misconception | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
to say it is so expensive that many people can't afford a lawyer. You | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
can instruct a barrister directly. The charges are often in the same | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
sort of area you would pay for a paid McKenzie Friend. And it doesn't | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
look convinced. That's not the case. I've had parents approach me to say | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
that they have had solicitors wanting ?250 to read a letter and | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
advise them on their next step. That's not affordable for many | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
people. It isn't true, parents often face many years in court, especially | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
when involved in protracted cases to spend time with their children and | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
they face thousands upon thousands of pounds which adds insult to | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
injury when they are not spending time with their children. These are | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
comments coming in. Darren says he used a McKenzie Friend and they were | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
brilliant. When e-mail says that they are experiencing the damage | :41:18. | :41:19. | |
that McKenzie Friends can do and that it led to 18 months of hell for | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
their family. Thank you both for coming in. You can watch our | :41:24. | :41:32. | |
complete report on McKenzie Friends on our website. | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
When you see an offer on display at the supermarket | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
you expect to receive it when you get to the tills. | :41:40. | :41:41. | |
But that wasn't happening - and now Tesco says it will check | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
the prices of all items in every store after an investigation found | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
customers were being short-changed on promotions. | :41:48. | :41:49. | |
An undercover reporter for BBC Inside Out was overcharged | :41:50. | :41:51. | |
on multi-buy offers at two-thirds of stores visited. | :41:52. | :41:53. | |
cases multi-buy deals were still being advertised | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
on the shelves months after they had expired. | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
Most of us are, and Tesco knows it, too. | :42:00. | :42:16. | |
That's why the shelves at Britain's biggest | :42:17. | :42:17. | |
supermarket are full of special offers. | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
And we all take it for granted that the | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
price we see on the shelf is the price we will pay at the till, | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
But what if things don't quite add up when you get home and | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
I've just bought a few bits at Tesco and I'm | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
sure these products were on special offer. | :42:39. | :42:40. | |
But according to my receipt, I've paid full price. | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
I've paid 60% more than the deal on the shelf. | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
So does this happen more often than we think? | :42:53. | :43:03. | |
Fergus Muirhead is a consumer journalist who says there's clearly | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
something wrong in the way offers have been delivered. | :43:08. | :43:09. | |
And Catherine Shuttleworth, is from Savvy Marketing, which works | :43:10. | :43:11. | |
Welcome to you all. First, Fergus, are you surprised that this is | :43:12. | :43:21. | |
happening? I think it has been happening for a long time. It's | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
quite often the case, I think, that you don't get what you think you are | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
getting in supermarkets. That is what it is so important to check | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
your receipt when you leave to make sure you paid what you thought you | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
were going to for the goods you bought. There is no question that | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
supermarkets make mistakes. I'm surprised that a number of Tesco | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
shops are making the mistake, it's a big number and I'm surprised it's | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
happening so often that it is important that as consumers we check | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
what we have bored when we are at the till, that the three for two or | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
the two-for-one offers have been priced correctly. That's all well | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
and good when I shop alone but when my children with me and they are | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
arguing and they want some chocolate and they are being annoying, or you | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
are an old person and you get confused by things why should it be | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
the responsibility of the consumer to check their receipts? I'm not | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
saying it is the consumer's responsibility, they have to check | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
and they should make sure what they have spent is right although Tesco | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
should take part of the blame, they've obviously got sloppy | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
management going on and offers that should be taken off the shelves | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
should be taken off because it is absolutely their responsibility and | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
they need to do something about it. Guy, what tactics do we need to be | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
aware of that supermarkets used to make us spend more? Not all offers | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
are good, and multi-byte offers like three for two or something that | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
would normally cost ?1 50 and two of them would cost ?2, if you were | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
going to buy two of them anyway, a good deal but often they tempted to | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
buy an extra product when you didn't want it. Take fresh produce, meat or | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
cheese which could go off. If you buy a second or third item and it | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
goes off because you don't have the time it's not a good deal. Much | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
better offers are two for one because if you were going to buy | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
something anyway it is free or a genuine reduction. Or if you buy | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
something like toothpaste which has a shelf life it does not matter if | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
you get an extra one. Are sometimes stocked up, the problem is where | :45:36. | :45:36. | |
it's going to go off. Tesco told us, "We take great care | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
to deliver clear and accurate price labels for our customers so they can | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
make informed decisions We are disappointed that errors | :45:45. | :45:46. | |
occurred and will be working with the stores involved | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
to reinforce our responsibilities It is an issue of trust, isn't it, | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
between massive stores, where it is hugely competitive now and the | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
consumer? Absolutely and Tesco will be really frustrated by this and I | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
would imagine that they are out checking the stores today as will be | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
their competitors. This isn't just something that happens in Tesco, it | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
will happen across the whole of the retail estate and that's important | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
to remember is the scale and the size of the retailers. An average | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
supermarket will have 60,000 individual lines and there will be | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
1,000 price changes a week, prices will go up as well as down and | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
promotions will finish and they are delivered by human beings and there | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
is error in there and it is important the businesses are well | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
run so customers can trust them. We believe that Tesco won't rip us off. | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
75% of us trust Tesco and this will be a worry for them today and they | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
will want to make sure they within the trust straight back. | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
Thank you for coming in and talking to us. | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
The full investigation can be seen in some English regions tonight | :46:52. | :46:53. | |
on Inside Out at 7.30pm on BBC One, and on the BBC iPlayer. | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
The children of a couple who died of cancer | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
within days have released this heartbreaking photo to show | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
the world how much they loved each other and were together to the end. | :47:07. | :47:15. | |
Tens of thousands of people living below the tallest dam | :47:16. | :47:17. | |
in the United States have left their homes because of fears | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
that an emergency overflow channel could give way. | :47:21. | :47:22. | |
Weeks of heavy rain and snow have left the Oroville dam | :47:23. | :47:24. | |
in Northern California at almost full capacity. | :47:25. | :47:26. | |
Engineers have been trying to release some of the water | :47:27. | :47:28. | |
and plug a hole in the channel by dropping rocks from helicopters. | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
A little earlier, authorities explained the nature | :47:32. | :47:33. | |
Essentially what we're looking at is approximately a 30-foot wall | :47:34. | :47:41. | |
of water that would be coming out of the lake. | :47:42. | :47:53. | |
Not the lake drained, but a 30-foot wall of water. | :47:54. | :47:55. | |
That is why we took the appropriate measures that we did. | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
And implemented the evacuation process that we had going. | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
In Butte County, what we're looking at is approximately 35,000 residents | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
Yuba County, we're looking at 65,000 underneath an evacuation order. | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
Yuba city, 76,000 under evacuation warning. | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
We can speak to two people who had to leave their homes. | :48:10. | :48:17. | |
Veronica Ruiv, who is one of the 70,000 people | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
She's travelling in a convoy of five cars with her family, | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
And to Xavier Goeas, who has been evacuated | :48:24. | :48:32. | |
He's travelling with his father and other members of family. | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
Veronica, are you still in your car? No, not anymore. I just made it to a | :48:37. | :48:45. | |
hotel. So how, are you in a safe area right now? Yes, we are in | :48:46. | :48:52. | |
Sacramento right now. Tell us how the authorities let you know you had | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
to get out and how much time you had? I found out through Facebook | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
through the Facebook channels of the emergency system of Yuba City and | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
all of our surrounding friends from the Mary's vil area who are closer | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
to the river which is, has been flooded before. So, they are at a | :49:13. | :49:21. | |
much higher risk than Yuba, the Marysvil area. Were you worried? My | :49:22. | :49:30. | |
brother was at the tennis courts by the river. It is at a park located | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
next to, where the river runs through. I was worried about him. We | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
got in our car and we took off the whole family and we went to him and | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
we picked him up and I read the official report by the National | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
Weather Service about how the damage to the dam could have a critical | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
failure or something like that in less than 60 minutes and the streets | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
filled with cars and they were just driving erratically and we just had | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
to get out of there. A sense of panic. Veronica, was it the same as | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
you were leaving with all the cars? Once I left the parkway of my home I | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
realised that the situation was much more serious than what I expected. | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
How much time did you have? We said your three daughters were in the | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
car. It is difficult to get girls to do anything quickly. Did you have to | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
pack bags quickly? They moved much faster than I did it time! Do you | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
know what they packed? I spoke to a woman who had to leave her home | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
because of wildfires and she told me her six-year-old daughter packed 12 | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
pairs of pyjamas and nothing else? My oldest daughter did not pack very | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
much! My youngest packed all of her art stuff. I don't know why, but she | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
is an artist and she likes to pack her crayons and my middle child says | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
she didn't bring anything besides her iPhone! Maybe that's all she | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
needs. Are you getting good communication about how long you | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
have to stay away and whether the dam is likely to burst? I checked on | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
Facebook and it's still mandatory to evacuate from Yuba City so they have | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
not let us know when we're able to go back. What information are you | :51:23. | :51:30. | |
getting? We haven't got, what I do know is when I left town that the | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
evacuation order would be in effect until 4.15 tomorrow or today now on | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
Monday. However, I watched the news report and he changed his language | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
that the sheriff of the county, he chaunged it from 4.15pm to until | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
further notice. So I mean that sort of hints to me that the situation | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
could be getting worse or it might just remain where I can't go home | :51:57. | :52:04. | |
until a longer time. Thank you both for joining us. Good | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
luck. I hope you get back to your homes soon. Stay safe and thank you | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
for talking to us. The channel was weakened by heavy | :52:12. | :52:28. | |
rainfall. I don't know why we were talking about that. We have just | :52:29. | :52:30. | |
spoken to those people. The children of a terminally ill | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
couple who died of cancer within days of each other have | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
shared this moving photograph of their parents' | :52:39. | :52:40. | |
last moments together. Now it shows 57-year-old | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
Mike Bennet and his 50-year-old wife Julie holding hands | :52:48. | :52:49. | |
in a Merseyside hospice. Mr Bennet died last Monday and his | :52:50. | :52:50. | |
wife died late Saturday night. We can speak to a friend of | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
the family Heather Heaton Gallagher. Heather, it is a really moving | :52:58. | :53:07. | |
picture. I can't imagine what the family is going through right now. | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
It must have been incredibly difficult to make that decision to | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
release it? Yes. I think I will tell you how the photograph came around. | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
Both Julia and Mike were in arrow park Hospital. They have done a | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
marvellous job. Mike had become really unwell and he was blue | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
lighted into Arrow Park and the nursing team have been brilliant. | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
Mike has been unwell for threeiers and he has been in and out of care | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
and he has been fighting this battle and had various operations and | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
treatment and Julie became really unwell between April last year and | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
the diagnosis in May, both they different kind of cancer, you know, | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
you couldn't write it, could you? So obviously they were in arrow park | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
together and Julie became unwell and admitted herself and the hospital | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
staff pushed the beds together knowing that Mike was nearing the | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
end. The photograph was taken by a relative, by one of the aunties and | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
it was purely because it was a beautiful photograph. These were two | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
people who were pea ins a pod and loved each other detail crisis and | :54:14. | :54:15. | |
they brought their kids up with that. They are a solid family unit. | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
The kids released the photograph because, because of who they are and | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
where they sit-in the community. Everyone was asking all the time how | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
is Julie? How is Mike? What's the news? What's the update? Where are | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
we? Can we do anything? It was to help people understand, it was a | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
case of no, dad has passed and this was taken of the it was done out of | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
love and sharing the photograph and the image and they were OK and they | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
were there together. That's how the photograph came around, but we | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
didn't expect the response we've from everyone around the world. It | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
is really overwhelmed everyone and we are astonished and we are | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
grateful for the support that the family has got at the moment. You | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
say from around the world. So have you got people getting in touch from | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
well beyond these shores? Oaks far and beyond. We have set-up a Just | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
Giving page and that's around raising funds to help the three kids | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
Luke, Hannah and Olly to fulfil the dreams and ambitions that Julie and | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
Mike thud had. They didn't want Luke to drop out of university and Hannah | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
to end college and go into a jobment they want them to continue their | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
studies of the that's what the fund was set-up for. The fund has grown | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
and it has expanded beyond our belief and people are reaching out. | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
The stories come from all walks of life. There was a chap from Canada | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
who said his brother, his brother-in-law was in the same | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
situation and he lost both his parents. There is another family | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
from America and they said, you know, I was that kid. I lost my | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
parents when I was young. We get, you know, there is a pensioner from | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
Scotland who made contact and said, "I can't afford to give you any | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
money, but I'm going to knit something and I'll put it towards | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
the auction." There was a homeless guy in Liverpool at the weekend who | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
heard the conversations and all he collected that day, that ?2.56 he | :56:14. | :56:19. | |
wanted it to go to the kids. He knew the impact that these kids faced. | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
That's amazing. That must be immense comfort to their children. I know | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
that you've spoken to them. What have they been saying to you? They | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
can't believe it. They're astoweded. You know, when I share some of the | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
comments, they just can't believe the support and it has really struck | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
a chord. It helps them understand this is life changing for them. This | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
huge community has got together and put their arms around them and said, | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
it is a bit pants right now, but it will be OK. It helping with their | :56:55. | :57:05. | |
grieving do you think? I don't think, money doesn't help with | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
grieving. It will take time for them to sink in. Monday morning and Olly | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
wanted to go to school today. Your mum is not there and she is not | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
ready to pack lunch or not given you money for your school dinners. Did | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
you clean your shoes and where is your diary? Have I signed it? Those | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
are the things that will impact the kids. They have not kaunties and | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
aUngles staying with them and they're supporting them and as the | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
kids get used to this, the aim is we keep them in the family home | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
together. Mike and Julie have just brought up three amazing kids. They | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
are solid as a unit together. You will find Hannah, will whip Olly | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
into shape and you will find Luke will be giving Hannah that hug as a | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
big brother does and they're there for each other now. Thank you for | :57:59. | :58:06. | |
speaking to us. Heather. What's the Just Giving number up to? ?112,000. | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
That's amazing. From everyone in the family, thank you. Heather, thank | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
you. Thanks for your company. Joanna will be presenting the programme | :58:20. | :58:27. | |
tomorrow. You can reach out to us on Twitter. | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
# I knew you were trouble when you walked in | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
# Now I'm lying on the cold, hard ground | :58:37. | :58:40. |