21/03/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


21/03/2017

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

:00:08.:00:09.

"Without him there would be no peace" - one of the tributes

:00:10.:00:17.

to Martin McGuiness, the former IRA leader turned

:00:18.:00:21.

peacekeeper who's died this morning aged 66.

:00:22.:00:25.

My journey's been a long journey, I've been over 25 years working

:00:26.:00:33.

People were being murdered by the RUC, or they were

:00:34.:00:37.

being murdered wholesale as they were at Bloody Sunday

:00:38.:00:42.

And the fact that many young people like myself -

:00:43.:00:45.

supported by many thousands in the city, I'm not saying

:00:46.:00:48.

They decided to fight back. I do not regret any of that.

:00:49.:01:01.

Also on the programme - the dad falsely accused

:01:02.:01:03.

of being a paedophile because of a typo by police

:01:04.:01:05.

If you're a decent person, who lives a decent life,

:01:06.:01:08.

I found that really frightening for me,

:01:09.:01:11.

We'll bring you that interview before the end of the programme.

:01:12.:01:28.

The former deputy first minister of Northern Ireland -

:01:29.:01:32.

Martin McGuinness - has died in hospital in Londonderry.

:01:33.:01:34.

He was 66 and had been suffering from a rare heart condition.

:01:35.:01:37.

As a senior figure in the IRA, Mr McGuinness was often accused

:01:38.:01:41.

of killing, and ordering others to kill.

:01:42.:01:45.

He went on to play an important role as a Sinn Fein

:01:46.:01:48.

Chris Buckler looks back at his life.

:01:49.:01:52.

To paint a true picture of Martin McGuinness,

:01:53.:01:54.

He was a paramilitary who once embraced violence,

:01:55.:02:01.

but also a peacemaker who reached out to rivals, a man who could be

:02:02.:02:05.

Born in Londonderry, into a large Catholic family,

:02:06.:02:12.

Martin McGuinness came of age as Northern Ireland's

:02:13.:02:15.

In that time of violence, he joined the IRA, quickly

:02:16.:02:21.

Can you say whether the bombing is likely to stop in the near future,

:02:22.:02:28.

Well, I always take into consideration the feelings

:02:29.:02:38.

The 1970s saw him become one of the faces of ruthless

:02:39.:02:42.

Irish republicanism, and he was jailed for terrorist

:02:43.:02:44.

McGuinness has changed considerably from the young man who used

:02:45.:02:48.

to swagger around the no-go areas in Londonderry, as commander

:02:49.:02:51.

What had started as a fight for civil rights had

:02:52.:02:57.

Yet, alongside the many bombings and shootings,

:02:58.:03:05.

Martin McGuinness saw opportunities at the ballot box for

:03:06.:03:07.

Sinn Fein, the political party linked to the IRA.

:03:08.:03:10.

Even then, the language of threat remained.

:03:11.:03:14.

We don't believe that winning elections, and winning

:03:15.:03:16.

any amount of votes, will bring freedom in Ireland.

:03:17.:03:19.

At the end of the day, it will be the cutting edge of IRA

:03:20.:03:22.

But, after years of killings and chaos, in the 1990s,

:03:23.:03:28.

IRA ceasefires offered the opportunity for talks

:03:29.:03:29.

Not only would they shake hands, after the signing

:03:30.:03:46.

of the Good Friday Agreement, they joined each

:03:47.:03:48.

Eventually, at its head was the unlikely partnership

:03:49.:03:53.

of two former enemies - Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness.

:03:54.:03:55.

The firebrand unionist and radical republican became so close

:03:56.:04:00.

that they were nicknamed the Chuckle Brothers.

:04:01.:04:06.

There were republicans who continued to threaten that political progress.

:04:07.:04:12.

But when a police officer was killed, the then-deputy first

:04:13.:04:14.

minister stood side-by-side with the chief constable to condemn

:04:15.:04:16.

They are traitors to the island of Ireland.

:04:17.:04:26.

Alongside the words, there were actions on all sides.

:04:27.:04:28.

The Queen's cousin Lord Mountbatten was killed by the IRA.

:04:29.:04:30.

Yet, after the Troubles, royal and republican were able

:04:31.:04:32.

Thank you very much, I am still alive!

:04:33.:04:37.

However, relationships at Stormont always seemed strained

:04:38.:04:46.

after Ian Paisley stepped down as First Minister, to be

:04:47.:04:48.

replaced by Peter Robinson, and then Arlene Foster.

:04:49.:04:51.

Earlier this year, with his ill-health by then obvious,

:04:52.:04:54.

Martin McGuinness walked out of government, amid a row

:04:55.:04:59.

between Sinn Fein and the DUP, the boy from Derry's Bogside

:05:00.:05:01.

retiring as deputy first minister after years in the IRA.

:05:02.:05:05.

I've been over 25 years working and building the peace.

:05:06.:05:14.

The past actions of the IRA will colour many people's views

:05:15.:05:17.

But as a republican who worked towards reconciliation,

:05:18.:05:22.

he will be remembered as a key figure in changing Northern Ireland.

:05:23.:05:30.

Our Ireland correspondent Chris Page is in Belfast.

:05:31.:05:34.

Tell us about some of the reaction, mixed reaction, to the death of

:05:35.:05:43.

Martin McGuinness. Martin McGuinness had a complex and controversial life

:05:44.:05:46.

but also today we have heard plenty about the role he played in the

:05:47.:05:51.

peace process. He more than anybody else embodied the journey of Irish

:05:52.:05:56.

republicans from guns to government and people observed if it was not

:05:57.:05:59.

for Martin McGuinness there may not have been the peace process at all.

:06:00.:06:04.

Tony Blair who negotiated the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 that

:06:05.:06:09.

effectively ended the troubles said what made Martin McGuinness a

:06:10.:06:15.

formidable foe made him a formidable peacemaker and those two sides of

:06:16.:06:18.

his life have come into focus and the warmest tributes have been paid

:06:19.:06:24.

by Republicans who have called him a statesman, Peacemaker, a man who

:06:25.:06:29.

worked for reconciliation. Most unionist politicians noted the harm

:06:30.:06:35.

the IRA did and Martin McGuinness' violent past in that organisation.

:06:36.:06:40.

The Ulster Unionist leader said it would be a challenging day for

:06:41.:06:44.

victims. He and other unionists recognise the pit -- pivotal role he

:06:45.:06:52.

played in this era. Arlene Foster has said that in terms

:06:53.:07:07.

of Martin McGuinness's history people will know it is on the record

:07:08.:07:12.

what his history was, his past and the IRA, but acknowledged his

:07:13.:07:15.

significance in negotiations that brought peace to Northern Ireland. I

:07:16.:07:19.

want to give the audience some of the reaction from viewers. A tweet

:07:20.:07:25.

from Keith, let's refrain from giving people the impression Martin

:07:26.:07:29.

McGuinness was a saint. An anonymous viewers said he was responsible for

:07:30.:07:34.

the death of several family members, three of which were innocent of

:07:35.:07:39.

crimes in the troubles. Obviously a divisive figure. Absolutely he was.

:07:40.:07:44.

They IRA was the most deadly paramilitary group in the troubles

:07:45.:07:47.

and responsible for hundreds of deaths and when he became known it

:07:48.:07:52.

was as a terrorist godfather, that was the way many would describe him

:07:53.:07:57.

and he had the reputation infamous as a hard man in the Aaron Rai and

:07:58.:08:02.

held a senior figure in the republican movement throughout the

:08:03.:08:08.

violence in a bitter conflict that cost 3500 lives of many thought it

:08:09.:08:11.

might never end but eventually it did. There are many who cannot

:08:12.:08:17.

forgive Martin McGuinness and some unionists who could not reconcile

:08:18.:08:20.

themselves to the fact he ended up in government running Northern

:08:21.:08:24.

Ireland alongside unionists, but the latter phase of his life, the focus

:08:25.:08:28.

has been on his role as a politician, as opposed to the

:08:29.:08:33.

paramilitary role. Alan McBride, whose wife was killed in the

:08:34.:08:38.

Shankill Road bombing in 93 said today Martin McGuinness's fingers

:08:39.:08:42.

were all over the troubles but also all over the peace process. More

:08:43.:08:47.

reaction to come to the death of Martin McGuinness and we will talk

:08:48.:08:51.

to Colin Parry, whose son was killed in Warrington by an IRA

:08:52.:08:53.

Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:08:54.:08:59.

A man has been charged with the murder of a one year

:09:00.:09:03.

Bidhya Sagar Das, who's 33, is also charged with attempting

:09:04.:09:07.

to murder the boy's twin sister, who remains in a critical

:09:08.:09:09.

Both children were discovered with serious injuries

:09:10.:09:12.

at a flat near Finsbury Park on Saturday night.

:09:13.:09:15.

The US is banning electronic devices from cabin baggage on flights

:09:16.:09:19.

from eight mainly Middle Eastern and North African countries.

:09:20.:09:21.

It will reportedly include all large electronic

:09:22.:09:25.

devices such as laptops, tablets cameras, DVD

:09:26.:09:28.

players and electronic games, but not phones.

:09:29.:09:30.

The measure will affect nine airlines, flying

:09:31.:09:32.

Thousands of young children in England are having their baby

:09:33.:09:39.

teeth removed each year because of tooth decay.

:09:40.:09:46.

and show just over 84,000 tooth extractions were carried out

:09:47.:09:52.

The Department of Health say they're introducing a soft drinks levy,

:09:53.:09:56.

to encourage companies to reduce sugar in their products.

:09:57.:09:58.

A father has told this programme his life was ruined

:09:59.:10:01.

when police wrongly accused him of being a paedophile -

:10:02.:10:03.

after a typing error sent officers to the wrong address.

:10:04.:10:06.

Nigel Lang, from Sheffield, was arrested on suspicion

:10:07.:10:09.

of possessing indecent images of children.

:10:10.:10:12.

He was subsequently suspended from work and wasn't

:10:13.:10:14.

He was eventually cleared when it was discovered that police

:10:15.:10:19.

had mistakenly added an extra digit to an IP address linked

:10:20.:10:22.

Hertfordshire Constabulary admitted the error and apologised to Mr Lang,

:10:23.:10:27.

And you can hear Nigel Lang's interview with Victoria

:10:28.:10:33.

A two-day debate at the Scottish Parliament will get under way later,

:10:34.:10:40.

as First Minister Nicola Sturgeon makes her case for a second

:10:41.:10:43.

The Scottish National Party leader will seek Holyrood's backing to ask

:10:44.:10:48.

Westminster for the power to hold another vote, despite

:10:49.:10:51.

the Prime Minister saying "now is not the time".

:10:52.:10:54.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30am.

:10:55.:11:02.

More reaction to the death of Martin McGuinness in a moment and we will

:11:03.:11:09.

begin the sport first. It is the international break in football and

:11:10.:11:14.

Jamie Vardy has created headlines. Down at St James' Park with England

:11:15.:11:18.

and they fly Dortmund, playing Germany in a friendly. Almost a year

:11:19.:11:24.

ago he scored against Germany in the build-up to the Euros and was firing

:11:25.:11:28.

Leicester to be improbable title and he could do no wrong but a month

:11:29.:11:32.

ago, things soured. Leicester have had a terrible season and sacked

:11:33.:11:39.

Claudio Ranieri and there was speculation Jamie Vardy was behind

:11:40.:11:43.

some kind of players' revolt. He said he he had nothing to do with it

:11:44.:11:49.

and things went wrong. The current manager has turned things around,

:11:50.:11:53.

but he has been talking about receiving death threats either to

:11:54.:11:57.

himself, via social media, just walking down the street as well he

:11:58.:12:01.

says, the weekly basis, and he talked about his wife being while

:12:02.:12:06.

she was in the car with children. People trying to cut her up. Just a

:12:07.:12:12.

glimpse of what he has been going through. He said he has not involved

:12:13.:12:17.

the police and it is part and parcel with what being a Premier League

:12:18.:12:21.

footballer is and he knows some people will never like him, but it

:12:22.:12:25.

has been an unpleasant couple of weeks for Jamie Vardy, denying the

:12:26.:12:31.

fact he was behind Claudio Ranieri's sacking in some way that saying he

:12:32.:12:36.

has been getting flak, including the serious nature of death threats but

:12:37.:12:39.

social media, we know all about that. You have done so much about

:12:40.:12:45.

that, Victoria, it is easy for people to do things like that, isn't

:12:46.:12:47.

it? The other home nations, what about

:12:48.:12:52.

them? It will be a busy few weeks. We have a couple of days waiting to

:12:53.:12:56.

the matches. Scotland have a friendly in Edinburgh against

:12:57.:13:01.

Canada. They could be rattling around Easton Road, they have only

:13:02.:13:05.

sold 5000 tickets. Gordon Strachan has tried to sell tickets by saying

:13:06.:13:09.

they will put on a show and why not turn up to see what they can do

:13:10.:13:13.

against Canada. But Canada are pretty poor and Scotland should win.

:13:14.:13:18.

It should be a good match in Dublin on Friday night, a World Cup

:13:19.:13:23.

qualifier. Wales with Gareth Bale play the Republic of Ireland. A

:13:24.:13:28.

Northern Ireland facing Norway in another qualifier. And England back

:13:29.:13:33.

at Wembley, facing Lithuania. It will be busy on the football front.

:13:34.:13:42.

Next, reaction to the death of Martin McGuinness.

:13:43.:13:44.

Northern Ireland's former deputy first minister who's died aged 66.

:13:45.:13:46.

He's known to have been ill for some time with a rare heart condition.

:13:47.:13:50.

To many he was seen as a peacemaker, others could never forgive him

:13:51.:13:53.

for his role as a key figure in the IRA.

:13:54.:13:55.

He grew up in Derry's Bogside, radicalised by what he saw

:13:56.:13:58.

as discrimination and murder on the streets of his city.

:13:59.:14:02.

We believe that the only way that Irish people can bring about the

:14:03.:14:08.

freedom of their country is through the use of armed struggle.

:14:09.:14:11.

I wish it could be done in another way.

:14:12.:14:14.

If someone could tell me a peaceful way

:14:15.:14:17.

to do it, then I would gladly support that.

:14:18.:14:19.

He had a leading role in the IRA during the time

:14:20.:14:25.

the paramilitary organisation was bombing his home city.

:14:26.:14:29.

This is him addressing a rally in Tyrone, which had one of the most

:14:30.:14:32.

active republican paramilitary groups, at the height

:14:33.:14:34.

Republican people of Tyrone, the people are with you today to pay

:14:35.:14:49.

tribute to the volunteers of the Irish republican army from this

:14:50.:14:52.

historic county who gave their lives sad every generation for freedom and

:14:53.:14:59.

justice in Ireland. In doing so we are in union with Republicans in

:15:00.:15:04.

every part of Ireland in honouring the memory of our friends, the

:15:05.:15:09.

freedom fighters of the IRA who have selflessly given everything in our

:15:10.:15:14.

continuing struggle against occupation.

:15:15.:15:24.

The Good Friday Agreement led to this handshake with the Queen and a

:15:25.:15:27.

toast at Windsor Castle. Many people in this hall today

:15:28.:15:30.

played an important part in our peace process and many

:15:31.:15:32.

others, unfortunately, And I want to send to

:15:33.:15:34.

them our warmest thanks. We will continue to rely on that

:15:35.:15:42.

support as we strive towards a society moving

:15:43.:15:46.

from division and disharmony to one which celebrates our diversity

:15:47.:15:51.

and is determined to provide a better future for

:15:52.:15:54.

all of our people. One which cherishes the elderly,

:15:55.:15:59.

the vulnerable, the young and all of our children equally,

:16:00.:16:02.

which welcomes warmly those from other lands and cultures

:16:03.:16:06.

who wish to join us and forge A society which remembers those

:16:07.:16:09.

who have lost their lives. By 2007, he was Northern Ireland's

:16:10.:16:21.

Deputy First Minister standing alongside First Minister Ian

:16:22.:16:23.

Paisley. Mart marlt resigned at the beginning

:16:24.:16:44.

of the year against the Democratic Party's handling of an energy

:16:45.:16:47.

scandal that triggered a snap election.

:16:48.:16:51.

During his last press conference, Mr McGuinness

:16:52.:16:52.

He died in his home city of Derry this morning with his family by his

:16:53.:17:02.

side. The former British Prime

:17:03.:17:05.

Minister Tony Blair, who worked with Mr McGuiness closely

:17:06.:17:07.

during the Northern Ireland peace process, told Radio 4's Today

:17:08.:17:09.

programme this morning he had immense gratitude for the part

:17:10.:17:12.

he played in the peace process. For people like myself talking about

:17:13.:17:16.

Martin's contribution to peace, there will be people who remember

:17:17.:17:19.

the early days, those who lost loved ones in the troubles and they will

:17:20.:17:23.

find it very hard to forgive and impossible to forget. So, you know,

:17:24.:17:27.

we should always be aware of that in a strange way though, the steel that

:17:28.:17:33.

he showed back then in the pursuit of arms struggle was also the

:17:34.:17:39.

steel... A degree of dedication and commitment that was very ruthless,

:17:40.:17:44.

but that same determination was then brought forward in the peace

:17:45.:17:50.

process. So the character of Martin McGuinness in one sense did not

:17:51.:17:54.

change. That steel was always there, but once he decided to deploy it, in

:17:55.:17:58.

pursuit of peace, he did so with a lot of courage and a lot of

:17:59.:18:03.

leadership and I remember we had a the first really proper meeting we

:18:04.:18:06.

had was in Downing Street in the Cabinet Room and I remember Martin

:18:07.:18:11.

coming in with Gerry Adams and they sat down very heavily at the Cabinet

:18:12.:18:17.

table and Martin looked around and said with rather heavy irony, "So

:18:18.:18:23.

this was where the damage was done?" Meaning the partition agreement in

:18:24.:18:29.

the days of Lloyd George to which Jonathan Powell my Chief-of-Staff

:18:30.:18:32.

replied with a smile, "By damage I thought you meant when you guys

:18:33.:18:41.

lobbed the mortar through the windows of Downing Street in John

:18:42.:18:46.

Major's time." Martin was the one who wanted to explain why consistent

:18:47.:18:50.

with the principles of republicanism now was the right moment for peace.

:18:51.:18:56.

So this for him was not a, it wasn't an act of stepping back from what he

:18:57.:19:02.

believed, it was genuinely that he had come to see this, the troubles

:19:03.:19:07.

and the arms struggle as something that was just causing misery for his

:19:08.:19:10.

people as well as the rest of the people in Northern Ireland and

:19:11.:19:16.

mainland Britain and he therefore, once he had come to his view that

:19:17.:19:20.

peace was the right way forward, he pursued it with a lot of skill and

:19:21.:19:24.

with a lot of courage and without him being - because he had the

:19:25.:19:30.

credibility within the republican movement - without him being fully

:19:31.:19:34.

on side with this process, it would never have happened.

:19:35.:19:39.

We can speak now to the Conservative MP Theresa Villiers,

:19:40.:19:41.

who was Northern Ireland Secretary from September 2012 until July last

:19:42.:19:44.

year and to Lord Tebbit who was in the Brighton hotel

:19:45.:19:46.

when it was bombed by the IRA in 1984 -

:19:47.:19:49.

the attack killed five people and left Lord Tebbit's

:19:50.:19:54.

What are your thoughts on the deft Martin McGuinness? The world is a

:19:55.:20:05.

sweeter and cleaner place. How would you describe him? A coward. A

:20:06.:20:16.

murderer. What else? Do you accept his significant role in the peace

:20:17.:20:21.

process? Yes, he had a significant role because of his cowardice. He

:20:22.:20:30.

knew the IRA had been penetrated to its highest levels by British

:20:31.:20:34.

intelligence and that before long he would have been arrested and charged

:20:35.:20:39.

with some of the many murders which he personally committed and so he

:20:40.:20:44.

opted for the coward's way out and said, "I am a man of peace." Do you

:20:45.:20:48.

think the peace process could have come about without the role he

:20:49.:20:52.

played? Without his contribution? Yes, after he had been killed. What

:20:53.:21:00.

do you mean zm Well, he might well have been killed by British forces

:21:01.:21:07.

in one of his acts of terrorism or, of course, he might have been

:21:08.:21:11.

arrested. He knew that he was shortly to be arrested and charged

:21:12.:21:17.

with murder and so, it would have put him out of the running in the

:21:18.:21:36.

peace process. A woman person who was murdered, it was his view and my

:21:37.:21:40.

view that the first requirement for lasting peace and justice was that

:21:41.:21:46.

the IRA should be defeated. So you believe Martin McGuinness saw the

:21:47.:21:53.

peace process as... As a way of escaping justice. Right. When you

:21:54.:21:57.

hear the tributes from your Prime Minister, Theresa May, from former

:21:58.:21:59.

Prime Minister, Tony Blair, what do you think then? Well, when I hear

:22:00.:22:08.

Tony Blair talking about McGuinness as Martin, I must say, it's

:22:09.:22:14.

difficult not to be ill, but of course, we know Blair of old and you

:22:15.:22:21.

know, he was the hero of Iraq and many other acts of policy and I

:22:22.:22:28.

repeat again that we would have got a more soundly based peace with less

:22:29.:22:38.

deaths if a politician had been alive to carry out his policy.

:22:39.:22:42.

Theresa May is forgiving McGuinness and somebody mentioned that. He

:22:43.:22:46.

can't be forgiven because forgiveness requires confession of

:22:47.:22:51.

sins and repentance. He never confessed his since. He never

:22:52.:22:56.

repented. Theresa May said Martin McGuinness made, "An essential and

:22:57.:23:00.

historic contribution to Northern Ireland's peace process playing a

:23:01.:23:04.

defining role in leading the republican movement away from

:23:05.:23:07.

violence." He certainly did play a role, but it was a role which was

:23:08.:23:13.

played out of cowardice and nothing else. Can I ask how your wife is?

:23:14.:23:20.

That's not particularly relevant, but she has been crippled and in

:23:21.:23:24.

pain for the last 30 odd years. Indeed, I have suffered pain every

:23:25.:23:30.

day for the last 30 odd years, but my thoughts are far more with many

:23:31.:23:35.

others in Northern Ireland particularly the families of the

:23:36.:23:45.

disappeared and as many of us know, the disappeared disappeared after

:23:46.:23:47.

they were murdered in order to conceal the manner in which they had

:23:48.:23:50.

died. There will be some people watching our programme this morning

:23:51.:23:55.

who are too young to remember what happened on 12th October 1984 and

:23:56.:24:03.

that an iment RA bomb ripped apart that Brighton hotel during the

:24:04.:24:05.

Conservative Party Conference, the target was the Prime Minister,

:24:06.:24:08.

Margaret Thatcher. Five people were killed. As you've explained Lord

:24:09.:24:14.

Tebbit, your wife, was badly injured, and has experienced pain

:24:15.:24:21.

since as have you. What do you think about that act when you reflect on

:24:22.:24:27.

it? Well, it is just a plain straightforward act of murder and

:24:28.:24:31.

the poor little creature who actually put the bomb in the hotel,

:24:32.:24:42.

he was, nowhere have we ever had a confession from those who planned

:24:43.:24:47.

and organised it, who paid for it, who produced the bomb and gave it to

:24:48.:24:52.

him to put in the bathroom. Not a word of contrition from them. I'm

:24:53.:25:00.

going to bring in Teresa Villiers, former Northern Ireland Secretary,

:25:01.:25:03.

you've heard what Lord Tebbit said. What are your thoughts on the death

:25:04.:25:07.

of Martin McGuinness? I think it is right that we do reflect on the many

:25:08.:25:14.

people who suffered very directly and very seriously at the hands of

:25:15.:25:19.

the IRA of which Martin McGuinness was a leading member for very many

:25:20.:25:23.

years. I think it's certainly true that he did play an important role

:25:24.:25:31.

in delivering peace in Northern Ireland, but he will still

:25:32.:25:34.

undoubtedly responsible for great suffering as well in the past. You

:25:35.:25:39.

heard Lord Tebbit saying he using the peace process as an opportunity

:25:40.:25:43.

to evade justice? I'm sure, the police and prosecuting authorities

:25:44.:25:47.

in Northern Ireland pursue anyone against which there is evidence so

:25:48.:25:53.

I'm not sure I would see the processes involving that if there

:25:54.:25:55.

was evidence against Martin McGuinness I'm sure the police would

:25:56.:26:01.

have pursued it. I believe one thing that Martin McGuinness was always

:26:02.:26:05.

very clear about was he did not want to see a return to the brutality and

:26:06.:26:10.

the atrocities of the past. So, there is no doubt that his attitude

:26:11.:26:18.

did change over time, but that, I think, doesn't mean that he's freufb

:26:19.:26:26.

for he's forgiven for the acts he was involved in. Sorry, Lord Tebbit,

:26:27.:26:33.

you wanted to come in. He knew the file that some of the murders he had

:26:34.:26:37.

committed had gone to the office of the prosecutor. That was why he,

:26:38.:26:41.

being a coward, opted for peace. There will be more tributes from all

:26:42.:26:46.

sorts of people, the reaction is coming in. Mixed reaction from

:26:47.:26:52.

politicians, from people who lost loved ones as a result of IRA

:26:53.:26:57.

bombings. From the Prime Minister, you've already mentioned, from the

:26:58.:27:03.

former Prime Minister, Tony Blair. Do you think, Theresa Villiers there

:27:04.:27:08.

could have been a peace process without Martin McGuinness and the

:27:09.:27:10.

role he played? I think there could have been, but there is no doubt he

:27:11.:27:15.

did play an important part in the peace process and during the years I

:27:16.:27:18.

was Secretary of State, when, you know, that in a sense that process

:27:19.:27:24.

continued with attempts to reconcile parties, ensure they could work

:27:25.:27:29.

together, he was, I have to say, constructive and pragmatic and

:27:30.:27:33.

clearly, wanted to make the settlement out of the Good Friday

:27:34.:27:39.

Agreement work and so we need to give him credit for that. Lord

:27:40.:27:43.

Tebbit, you saw the relationship he established with his one time bitter

:27:44.:27:51.

political rival, Ian Paisley of the Democratic Party, how did you view

:27:52.:27:55.

that? Well, I wouldn't want to be responsible for choosing the friends

:27:56.:27:58.

of either of them. Go on. Why do you say that? I don't have a high regard

:27:59.:28:05.

for either of them. Right, OK. Do you accept that the political, the

:28:06.:28:09.

economic and the social well-being of Northern Ireland has been

:28:10.:28:14.

transformed since 1998? Yes, of course, it has. I'm not denying

:28:15.:28:22.

that. What I'm significant it arose because of the cowardice because of

:28:23.:28:25.

the terrorist, McGuinness. Thank you very much for your time this

:28:26.:28:32.

morning. OK, thank you. Lord Tebbit, talking, giving us his thoughts on

:28:33.:28:38.

Martin McGuinness. Talking about the bomb back in 1948, 12th October

:28:39.:28:43.

1984, the IRA bomb ripping through a Brighton hotel where the

:28:44.:28:45.

Conservative Party was gathered for their conference. The target was the

:28:46.:28:48.

Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. She survived. Five other people were

:28:49.:28:53.

killed. Lord Tebbit was injured. He was the trade secretary at the time

:28:54.:28:58.

and his wife were injured. They were in bed when that bomb exploded and

:28:59.:29:06.

you heard him say, he was repeatedly asked if he would be able to forgive

:29:07.:29:10.

the IRA for what happened and the answer is clearly no. Thank you very

:29:11.:29:14.

much for your time as well. Thank you, Teresa Villiers, former

:29:15.:29:21.

Northern Ireland Secretary. We will talk to the father falsely

:29:22.:29:27.

accused of being a paedophile because of a typo by the police. If

:29:28.:29:31.

you're a decent person and you don't know how it happened and I found

:29:32.:29:36.

that really frightening for me. And frightening for my family.

:29:37.:29:40.

Should Scotland have that second referendum on independence and if so

:29:41.:29:43.

when? The Scottish Parliament will debate it today. There will be a

:29:44.:29:46.

vote. We will speak to those on both sides of the argument.

:29:47.:29:53.

Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness, Northern Ireland's former

:29:54.:29:57.

deputy first minister, has died aged 66.

:29:58.:30:00.

It's understood he had been suffering from

:30:01.:30:02.

The former IRA leader turned peacemaker worked at the heart

:30:03.:30:07.

of the power-sharing government following the 1998

:30:08.:30:09.

He became deputy first minister in 2007, standing alongside

:30:10.:30:15.

Democratic Unionist Party leaders Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson

:30:16.:30:17.

But he stood down from his post in January in protest

:30:18.:30:24.

against the DUP's handling of an energy scandal, in a move that

:30:25.:30:27.

Tony Blair, who was Prime Minister when the Good Friday Agreement

:30:28.:30:34.

was signed in 1998, has been speaking to the BBC this morning.

:30:35.:30:38.

He was asked how it felt to be sitting across a table

:30:39.:30:41.

and negotiating with a man who, for many British people,

:30:42.:30:43.

That was the attitude of many people and, in a way, you only make peace

:30:44.:30:56.

with your enemies, so the people engaged in war were those engaged in

:30:57.:31:02.

peace. I think the quality of strength and determination that made

:31:03.:31:08.

him such a formidable foe during the armed struggle was also what made

:31:09.:31:11.

him such a formidable peacemaker later.

:31:12.:31:14.

Lord Tebbit was in the Brighton hotel when it was bombed

:31:15.:31:16.

by the IRA in 1984 - the attack killed 5 people and left

:31:17.:31:20.

He told this programme what he thought of Martin McGuinness' role

:31:21.:31:29.

in the peace process. He had a significant role because of his

:31:30.:31:35.

cowardice. He knew the IRA had been penetrated to its highest levels by

:31:36.:31:41.

British intelligence and that before long he would have been arrested and

:31:42.:31:45.

charged with some of the many murders which he personally

:31:46.:31:50.

committed, and so he opted for Luke Howard's way out and said, I am a

:31:51.:31:58.

man of peace. We will have -- he opted for the cow would's way out.

:31:59.:32:03.

A man has been charged with the murder of a one year

:32:04.:32:06.

Bidhya Sagar Das, who's 33, is also charged with attempting

:32:07.:32:10.

to murder the boy's twin sister, who remains in a critical

:32:11.:32:12.

Both children were discovered with serious injuries

:32:13.:32:15.

at a flat near Finsbury Park on Saturday night.

:32:16.:32:17.

A two-day debate at the Scottish Parliament will get under way later,

:32:18.:32:20.

as First Minister Nicola Sturgeon makes her case for a second

:32:21.:32:23.

The Scottish National Party leader will seek Holyrood's backing to ask

:32:24.:32:26.

Westminster for the power to hold another vote, despite

:32:27.:32:29.

the Prime Minister saying "now is not the time".

:32:30.:32:37.

More news at ten. Inflation has gone up a bit. The rate of the consumer

:32:38.:32:48.

Price index inflation has risen to 2.3%, up from 1.8% in January, that

:32:49.:32:53.

is from the Office for National Statistics. Consumer inflation has

:32:54.:32:59.

gone up to 2.3%. The sport now. The headlines. Jamie

:33:00.:33:06.

Vardy says he has received death threats from fans who have held him

:33:07.:33:10.

responsible for the sacking of manager Claudio Ranieri. He said

:33:11.:33:14.

life has been terrifying and his family has been targeted after

:33:15.:33:19.

reports he was a player who influenced the decision to let

:33:20.:33:22.

Claudio Ranieri go. Bastian Schweinsteiger from Manchester

:33:23.:33:27.

United will join Chicago Fire with immediate effect. The German has

:33:28.:33:33.

only made four first-team appearances this season. The

:33:34.:33:41.

Canadian team Toronto Wolfpack will play Super League side Salford Red

:33:42.:33:46.

Devils in the challenge cup will stop Toronto, who have dispensation

:33:47.:33:51.

to play in England's third tier have been to London Broncos in the last

:33:52.:33:54.

round and that draw is on the BBC Sport website. Valtteri Bottas says

:33:55.:34:02.

he has no intention of being number two to Lewis Hamilton at Mercedes.

:34:03.:34:07.

He replaced Nico Rosberg, who retired after winning the World

:34:08.:34:11.

Championship. I will be back after ten and we will look at competitive

:34:12.:34:12.

computer gaming. Let's get more now on the news

:34:13.:34:15.

that the former IRA commander, Martin McGuinness, who turned his

:34:16.:34:18.

back on violence to help bring peace to Northern Ireland and become

:34:19.:34:21.

the Deputy First Minister, has died. He was 66 and had

:34:22.:34:23.

a rare heart condition. Prime Minister Theresa May said

:34:24.:34:26.

she could "never condone" the path he'd taken in the earlier part

:34:27.:34:29.

of his life, but added that Martin McGuinness had played

:34:30.:34:32.

a defining role in leading the republican movement

:34:33.:34:35.

away from violence. We can speak to Colin Parry, whose

:34:36.:34:50.

son was killed by an eye a -- by an IRA bomb in Warrington. And also to

:34:51.:34:55.

Dennis Murray, the BBC Ireland correspondent for 20 years. Colin

:34:56.:34:59.

Parry, how do you reflect on the death of Martin McGuinness?

:35:00.:35:06.

I am not altogether surprised he has gone because when I spoke to him not

:35:07.:35:10.

many weeks ago his voice was extremely weak and I saw him on

:35:11.:35:15.

television and he looked very frail. He looked to me like he did not have

:35:16.:35:20.

longer and so it is not a great surprise he has died. If you ask for

:35:21.:35:24.

my opinions about Martin, I got along very well with him will stop

:35:25.:35:29.

although that seems to be anathema to some people, the fact is that in

:35:30.:35:37.

the wake of my son's killing, a couple of years on, my wife and I

:35:38.:35:41.

set up an important charity that works for peace and we have made a

:35:42.:35:45.

major contribution to peace building. I could hardly be

:35:46.:35:50.

consistent with my work if I were to take a black and white view on who I

:35:51.:35:54.

will and will not speak to and Martin and I got on well in recent

:35:55.:35:59.

years. Yet he could have ordered the murder of your son. He could. When I

:36:00.:36:05.

asked him the question why the IRA bombed Warrington, he said he did

:36:06.:36:09.

not know. The chances are he did know but there is little point in

:36:10.:36:15.

pressing the point. He was deeply apologetic for it, not that those

:36:16.:36:21.

apologies mattered in real terms, but the fact he suggested he did not

:36:22.:36:28.

know was interesting to me. Whether the cells had an autonomous life, I

:36:29.:36:34.

do not know. I do not know if the Army Council of the IRA control

:36:35.:36:37.

things as much as we thought they did. Did you believe him when he

:36:38.:36:42.

said he did not know? I neither believed him nor did not believe

:36:43.:36:48.

him. Probably I didn't believe him, on the balance of probabilities. We

:36:49.:36:56.

have just spoken to Lord Tebbit, and he raised the subject of

:36:57.:37:01.

forgiveness. Have you forgiven Martin McGuinness for his role in

:37:02.:37:06.

the RA? No, I haven't forgiven Martin McGuinness and I haven't

:37:07.:37:15.

forgiven the IRA and never will. I am not full of anger and seeking

:37:16.:37:20.

justice. I will not ever get justice. I have closed off the past

:37:21.:37:26.

as best I can so we can concentrate on the future and affect things we

:37:27.:37:32.

can affect. I will not ever forgive the IRA for taking Tim's life, but I

:37:33.:37:38.

cannot allow that to make my other children's life awful. What we have

:37:39.:37:44.

done by setting up the foundation, is make a major step, two parents

:37:45.:37:50.

getting involved in peace building and without overplaying it we are an

:37:51.:37:54.

important organisation in British peace building. How have you managed

:37:55.:38:00.

that anger? The anger was never there. Believe it or not, I was

:38:01.:38:09.

never angry. I was full of emptiness, loss, isolation, and any

:38:10.:38:13.

other emotion out there. Anger was not something I ever felt,

:38:14.:38:17.

thankfully. That is still the case today and I can speak for my wife,

:38:18.:38:23.

she was not angry, we were just completely bereft and bewildered by

:38:24.:38:25.

what happened. I will bring in Dennis Murray, if I may. The BBC

:38:26.:38:34.

Ireland correspondent for so many years, a recognisable face. Good

:38:35.:38:40.

morning. It is clear, listening to what people say about Martin

:38:41.:38:43.

McGuinness what a truly divisive figure he continues to be even in

:38:44.:38:48.

death. Divisive does not do justice to it. It has been summed up well by

:38:49.:38:56.

Colin because you had this kind of two very different roles that Martin

:38:57.:39:02.

McGuinness played and it is reasonably difficult to reconcile

:39:03.:39:08.

the two. Nobody I think is in any doubt Martin McGuinness was a senior

:39:09.:39:13.

IRA commander and always said that he left the IRA in the 70s, but I am

:39:14.:39:24.

not sure how many believed him will. He denied it again he was chief of

:39:25.:39:32.

staff of the IRA stop you have this transformation. It was gradual, not

:39:33.:39:36.

abrupt. Over the years he became a peacemaker. One or two civil

:39:37.:39:43.

servants I know, senior civil servants, who were people you might

:39:44.:39:46.

have thought would not warm to Martin McGuinness, they would not

:39:47.:39:52.

have agreed with him politically but they described him as authentic,

:39:53.:39:58.

genuine and one said, after it a few years of devolution being restored

:39:59.:40:03.

after 2007, he was one of the few statesman left. He certainly

:40:04.:40:09.

travelled a road. For him to condemn dissident republicans as he did

:40:10.:40:12.

after the murders of soldiers and a policeman here, he said they were

:40:13.:40:17.

traitors to the people of Ireland which is astonishing for a

:40:18.:40:21.

Republican leader to say and against the grain of the republican

:40:22.:40:27.

tradition. For him to meet the Queen. Would there have been a peace

:40:28.:40:32.

process without him? Probably, but the republican movement would not

:40:33.:40:36.

have travelled as far or fast as they did without him. Gerry Adams

:40:37.:40:41.

represented the political side of republicanism and Martin McGuinness

:40:42.:40:46.

represented what they called physical force. He used to say

:40:47.:40:51.

nobody misunderstands what I stand for. He had such a fearsome

:40:52.:40:58.

reputation he was able to carry the hardliners, 90% plus of the

:40:59.:41:04.

hardliners in the IRA to come not just to a peace and political deal

:41:05.:41:09.

but to disband and decommission weaponry. Why was he able to

:41:10.:41:16.

persuade the IRA rank and file to accept that peace process and go

:41:17.:41:21.

into political power-sharing? Because there was no hard man. I

:41:22.:41:28.

said it to Colin before when Martin McGuinness was invited,

:41:29.:41:31.

courageously, to the peace centre in Warrington, what you see before you

:41:32.:41:35.

is not the shadow of a gunmen, what you are seeing is a gunmen will stop

:41:36.:41:41.

there were protests outside the building. I am not sure he won many

:41:42.:41:49.

hearts and minds but it was courageous of Colin to ask him and

:41:50.:41:53.

courageous of Martin to go because the English public are less

:41:54.:41:58.

forgiving than Northern Ireland people have been. When Gerry Adams

:41:59.:42:04.

stood for the first time for election in the Irish Republic I

:42:05.:42:09.

thought the people in the constituency would dislike him for

:42:10.:42:14.

being a opportunist for blowing in but they disliked him for being an

:42:15.:42:21.

IRA man and a Provo. There is the residual thing in the Republic and

:42:22.:42:28.

in Britain. In Northern Ireland, whether people hate him or not, have

:42:29.:42:31.

forgiven him or not, they were prepared to tolerate him in

:42:32.:42:36.

government on the basis he was leading the most violent, murderous

:42:37.:42:40.

group in Northern Ireland away from that to exclusive involvement in

:42:41.:42:44.

politics and I think that will be the legacy rather more than the

:42:45.:42:49.

militant side of it but without the militant side he would not have been

:42:50.:42:55.

able to lead the hard men of republicanism out because there was

:42:56.:42:59.

no Hardyman the Martin McGuinness. Thanks, gentlemen.

:43:00.:43:07.

More reaction to the death of Martin McGuinness throughout the programme.

:43:08.:43:11.

This morning, in his first broadcast interview a father tells us his life

:43:12.:43:14.

was ruined after police officers wrongly accused him

:43:15.:43:16.

of being a paedophile - after a typo sent cops

:43:17.:43:21.

44 year old Nigel Lang, from Sheffield, was arrested

:43:22.:43:26.

on suspicion of possessing indecent images of children -

:43:27.:43:30.

his computer was seized, he wasn't allowed to see his son

:43:31.:43:33.

and he was suspended from work before being cleared.

:43:34.:43:36.

Mr Lang spent years trying to work out why he'd been arrested -

:43:37.:43:42.

and eventually discovered police had accidentally added an extra digit

:43:43.:43:45.

to an IP address lined with indecent images of children.

:43:46.:43:52.

That mistake sent police to his address, triggering

:43:53.:43:57.

what he calls the most horrendous and horrific time of his life.

:43:58.:44:02.

It's impacted on my life in a lot of significant ways.

:44:03.:44:05.

It's impacted on my family, especially my older children,

:44:06.:44:14.

If I didn't have their unwavering support, I don't think

:44:15.:44:19.

It has impacted on my mother, who was 78 at the time,

:44:20.:44:27.

and she was constantly worried for me.

:44:28.:44:33.

It's also impacted on my work and in my personal

:44:34.:44:35.

So it's impacted on me in a lot of ways.

:44:36.:44:42.

I was fearful that people would attack my children,

:44:43.:44:54.

would attack my house, would attack my family,

:44:55.:44:59.

because we hear about vigilante groups all the time when somebody's

:45:00.:45:02.

In terms of work, it impacted there, because I work

:45:03.:45:10.

Had to tell my employers and I was really embarrassed and that really

:45:11.:45:32.

hurt me. But I think the most

:45:33.:45:49.

hurtful thing was, I had to tell my employers about this,

:45:50.:45:52.

so I was really embarrassed And that's because of the nature

:45:53.:45:54.

of what you were accused of? I think it's important that people

:45:55.:45:59.

realise that when something like this happens to you,

:46:00.:46:03.

you don't know where to turn, you don't know who to turn to and,

:46:04.:46:05.

most importantly, you don't know If you're a decent person

:46:06.:46:08.

who lives a decent life, And I found that really

:46:09.:46:12.

frightening for me and I had a lot of fears for my future,

:46:13.:46:15.

because the fact that the police had put a statement on my record that

:46:16.:46:20.

said I was in possession... That has a significant impact,

:46:21.:46:22.

because it meant that I couldn't work, couldn't move

:46:23.:46:27.

from the employer that I was with. So in effect, with the police doing

:46:28.:46:30.

that, putting something like that on my record,

:46:31.:46:33.

without any evidence, basically ruined my reputation

:46:34.:46:35.

and I feel that it's I don't ever feel that I'd be able

:46:36.:46:46.

to work within that field again. In terms of my family,

:46:47.:46:58.

it had a significant impact on my youngest son because,

:46:59.:47:01.

for three weeks, I couldn't go to my house, I wasn't allowed

:47:02.:47:03.

to be anywhere near him I remember him saying to his mum,

:47:04.:47:07.

"Can Daddy not come That was heart-wrenching.

:47:08.:47:20.

That was heartbreaking. And part of the reason that I've

:47:21.:47:32.

come on here today is to let the British public know that I'm

:47:33.:47:37.

an innocent person and to let professionals in my city know that

:47:38.:47:48.

I'm an innocent person and I just needed people to know

:47:49.:47:51.

that, because I didn't So if you don't have your day

:47:52.:47:53.

in court, nobody knows So I feel that I had to come

:47:54.:47:57.

on your show to tell the British public that I'm an innocent person

:47:58.:48:01.

of this crime. It was a police mistake and I think

:48:02.:48:06.

it's horrendous that when no evidence is found of you committing

:48:07.:48:10.

a crime that they can just put on your record, "Well,

:48:11.:48:14.

he was in possession of indecent images of children but no

:48:15.:48:19.

further action was taken." I find it incredible

:48:20.:48:25.

that they can do that. I feel that if the police

:48:26.:48:33.

are going to raid somebody's house and say that they're a paedophile,

:48:34.:48:36.

they need to be sure, they need to be 100% sure,

:48:37.:48:41.

because this damages your reputation, it destroys

:48:42.:48:45.

careers, it puts pressures On your relationships,

:48:46.:48:52.

especially your personal relationship, with my partner,

:48:53.:48:57.

and my older children, You don't realise what impact it's

:48:58.:48:59.

had on them because you're the one who is fighting,

:49:00.:49:08.

you're the one who is fighting the fight to clear your name,

:49:09.:49:15.

and I was just obsessed. I felt compelled to clear my name

:49:16.:49:17.

because this was far reaching. It must have consumed your

:49:18.:49:25.

every waking moment. Definitely.

:49:26.:49:29.

I couldn't stop thinking about it. Every day, I was chatting to people

:49:30.:49:34.

about it and because of It actually took three weeks,

:49:35.:49:37.

I think, for them to realise that there was nothing

:49:38.:49:46.

on your computer, there were zero But actually, it's taken years

:49:47.:49:49.

for you to find out why you were ever arrested in the first

:49:50.:49:54.

place, why your computer was seized in the first place,

:49:55.:49:57.

why you weren't allowed to see your young

:49:58.:50:00.

son for three weeks. Yeah, I think that's

:50:01.:50:02.

been the hardest thing. It's the waiting for things

:50:03.:50:06.

to happen that takes It's that that, if you like,

:50:07.:50:13.

plays on your mind and eventually grinds you down to the point

:50:14.:50:22.

where you don't feel you can even work no more,

:50:23.:50:26.

which is what happened to me. The point when I had

:50:27.:50:33.

to leave work... I was working with a vulnerable

:50:34.:50:37.

person, a vulnerable young girl, and I felt that she was behaving

:50:38.:50:39.

inappropriately towards me. Normally, I would have been able

:50:40.:50:44.

to handle that but because now I had paedophilia on my record,

:50:45.:50:49.

I started to panic. I just wondered, if she was to

:50:50.:50:54.

accuse me of anything, then the police would believe her

:50:55.:51:01.

because of what... Here's the letter from

:51:02.:51:08.

Hertfordshire Police, which says sorry to you and acknowledges

:51:09.:51:15.

their catastrophic error. "Dear Mr Lang, I would firstly

:51:16.:51:20.

like to apologise on behalf Hertfordshire Constabulary have made

:51:21.:51:22.

a mistake and you should never have been arrested on suspicion

:51:23.:51:28.

of sharing indecent I have now established

:51:29.:51:30.

that there is a typing error This extra digit completely changed

:51:31.:51:38.

the result of the request As you are aware, this unfortunately

:51:39.:51:45.

identified you as being the person When I received that letter,

:51:46.:51:51.

in certain ways I was happy, just that they'd recognised

:51:52.:52:06.

the mistake, but then I got really angry

:52:07.:52:08.

about the situation. I went into emotional turmoil,

:52:09.:52:15.

so one minute I'm happy, next minute I'm crying,

:52:16.:52:19.

next minute, the other So it's just a terrible situation

:52:20.:52:21.

you find yourself in. I thought I would have been able

:52:22.:52:32.

to move on when I got that letter Because of the nature of the arrest

:52:33.:52:36.

and what they were accusing me of, I just haven't been able

:52:37.:52:45.

to get over it. I can't work in that field again

:52:46.:52:49.

because I've got too much problems. I've been reduced to benefits

:52:50.:52:59.

because of this, which really hurts. I don't feel I can provide

:53:00.:53:04.

for my family and I don't know how my mortgage is going to be paid,

:53:05.:53:09.

all because of a police typing error, and I think that one

:53:10.:53:12.

of the most hurtful things was all the time I was telling

:53:13.:53:15.

them I was innocent, "I'm innocent of this crime," even

:53:16.:53:19.

when I went to put my complaint in, I said I was innocent of this crime,

:53:20.:53:24.

and the police felt that I had They hadn't found no

:53:25.:53:28.

evidence on my computer, they had messed up my record

:53:29.:53:36.

and you're telling me I've got I felt they were trying

:53:37.:53:40.

to blame me for taking too long They said that if I'd have come

:53:41.:53:48.

earlier, they would have been able to sort it out but because I'd left

:53:49.:53:55.

it so long, they couldn't do nothing, and then

:53:56.:53:58.

when you find out that, with the hard work

:53:59.:54:01.

that I'd put in and... with the hard work that I'd

:54:02.:54:06.

put in and, you know, going to a solicitor,

:54:07.:54:09.

paying money... If my partner didn't have

:54:10.:54:14.

that money, I don't know what I would have done,

:54:15.:54:21.

but you pay that money and then they find out

:54:22.:54:25.

that the police had made a mistake. And my argument was,

:54:26.:54:28.

why couldn't they do that? Why couldn't they

:54:29.:54:36.

investigate and find that? I recognise that the police

:54:37.:54:37.

have a hard job to do and I do recognise that they have to catch

:54:38.:54:46.

paedophiles, however I just think that, you know,

:54:47.:54:49.

when somebody comes to them or they arrest somebody

:54:50.:54:52.

and that person is denying ever doing that crime,

:54:53.:54:57.

then I feel that the police should I mean, I was screaming out

:54:58.:55:03.

that I hadn't done this They seemed more interested

:55:04.:55:10.

in getting a result, and that really hurt me,

:55:11.:55:15.

the fact that I'm screaming out innocence and you're saying that,

:55:16.:55:20.

basically, without saying it, And they knew the impact

:55:21.:55:23.

it was going to have on me straightaway, because I said

:55:24.:55:33.

to the officer, the officer who I went to see about my

:55:34.:55:35.

complaint, I said to him, "Well, if you are going to put this

:55:36.:55:40.

on my record, then I will not be able to get another job

:55:41.:55:43.

within my field. It's astonishing that you even

:55:44.:55:46.

had to point that out, That is the, kind of,

:55:47.:55:57.

Kafkaesque situation. Well, I don't know where the law

:55:58.:56:06.

stands when there is no That's where the law stands.

:56:07.:56:09.

You have received compensation. It's not going to be a consolation

:56:10.:56:18.

for what you experienced. I think it's derisory.

:56:19.:56:24.

I think it's an insult. I think that when you destroy

:56:25.:56:31.

somebody's career, as this has done, I don't think ?60,000 comes anywhere

:56:32.:56:36.

close to the suffering that I've endured and that

:56:37.:56:40.

my family's endured. I think that people need to look

:56:41.:56:45.

at that aspect again, because if somebody's career

:56:46.:56:51.

is ruined, how are they going They should get money

:56:52.:56:53.

to retrain for their career. I couldn't go back to

:56:54.:57:02.

university again to retrain - I couldn't afford it -

:57:03.:57:07.

so, to me, I think that I've just got some bad feeling,

:57:08.:57:11.

a bitter taste, about the police in regard to what

:57:12.:57:18.

happened to my life. And, like I said, the reason why

:57:19.:57:22.

I went public is because I need everybody to know that when these

:57:23.:57:26.

mistakes happen to ordinary people, they have a devastating impact,

:57:27.:57:30.

and that's why I'm here today, Thank you very much

:57:31.:57:33.

for talking to us. We appreciate your time.

:57:34.:57:41.

Thank you. Nigel Lang first told his story

:57:42.:57:44.

to Buzzfeed news and today spoke to us in his first

:57:45.:57:52.

broadcast interview. You can read more about his story on

:57:53.:58:00.

the BBC News website. Neil says, "What a shocking error." Another

:58:01.:58:04.

viewer says, "My soul goes out to this brave man." Another viewer

:58:05.:58:08.

says, "Poor man. The police have ruined his life. Blown it apart and

:58:09.:58:13.

left him to pick up the pieces. It is terrifying."

:58:14.:58:16.

Let's get the latest weather update with Carol.

:58:17.:58:20.

Good morning. Today, we are looking at a right old mixture of sunshine

:58:21.:58:27.

and wintry showers. We have seen that combination already. Some

:58:28.:58:32.

pictures to show you. This one from Barnsley. Blue skies. It wasn't like

:58:33.:58:36.

that everywhere this morning earlier. This picture from

:58:37.:58:44.

Lanarkshire. The snow has been falling through

:58:45.:58:48.

the early part of today across Scotland and Northern Ireland in

:58:49.:58:52.

particular. But we've also seen some across Northern England, Wales and

:58:53.:58:54.

south-west England, but for many of us, we are off to a dry start with a

:58:55.:58:58.

fair bit of sunshine around. Through the day too, what you'll find is the

:58:59.:59:03.

wintry element of the showers, the snow, will retreat into the hills.

:59:04.:59:06.

At lower levels you could see a little bit of hail, sleet and rain.

:59:07.:59:10.

Maybe even the odd rumble of thunder, but they will blow through

:59:11.:59:13.

quickly on the wind and there will be a lot of sunshine, but later in

:59:14.:59:16.

the south-west, what you will find is, we will see a new system coming

:59:17.:59:19.

in. That will introduce thicker cloud and some rain, a wintriness

:59:20.:59:24.

over the moors and tors and maybe wintriness over the higher ground in

:59:25.:59:28.

Wales, but a lot of dry weather too. Northern Ireland, for you, you're

:59:29.:59:31.

looking at a mixture of sunshine and showers. In Scotland, again,

:59:32.:59:35.

sunshine and a few showers, being blown along on the wind and if

:59:36.:59:39.

you're in the wind it will feel cool, but there will be quite a bit

:59:40.:59:44.

of sunshine around in the east. Showers crossing the Pennines, but

:59:45.:59:50.

for much of the country, Essex and Kent, and down to the Isle of Wight,

:59:51.:59:53.

it is a dry story, but a nippy one with the odd shower here and there.

:59:54.:59:57.

As we head on through the evening and overnight, this area of rain and

:59:58.:00:00.

windy weather continues to drift northwards. It will deposit snow on

:00:01.:00:03.

the higher routes oi cross Wales. There will be the risk of ice as

:00:04.:00:07.

well. Maybe a touch of frost. But as it engages with the cold air already

:00:08.:00:12.

ensconced across Northern England, you will find it will turn to snow

:00:13.:00:16.

even possibly at lower levels and that may affect your journey into

:00:17.:00:19.

work in the morning. Ahead of it, clear skies, cold. Cold especially

:00:20.:00:25.

in the glens of Scotland, probably minus eight to minus ten Celsius. In

:00:26.:00:28.

the South East we're looking at fours and fivesment tomorrow, we

:00:29.:00:32.

start off with the snow across northern England, but like today, it

:00:33.:00:36.

will retreat into the hills and at lower levels it will be of mostly.

:00:37.:00:41.

In Northern Ireland, cold with a north easterly wind, but drier and

:00:42.:00:45.

brighter and brighter conditions in the south.

:00:46.:00:49.

Hello. It's Tuesday.

:00:50.:00:50.

Paramilitary turned peacemaker - we have more reflections

:00:51.:00:59.

on Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness who has died aged 66

:01:00.:01:02.

I have been over 25 years working and building the peace.

:01:03.:01:16.

He was a controversial figure. This is what the father of a child who

:01:17.:01:22.

guided an IRA attack those of him. When I asked in the question of why

:01:23.:01:27.

the IRA bombed Warrington he said he didn't know. The chances are he did

:01:28.:01:31.

know. He said he did not know and he was deeply apologetic for it, not

:01:32.:01:36.

that his apologies mattered in real terms, but the fact he suggested he

:01:37.:01:41.

did not know was interesting to me. We will bring you more reaction to

:01:42.:01:42.

that story. And how a police typo ruined this

:01:43.:01:45.

man's life after he was falsely I was fearful of the people

:01:46.:01:48.

would attack my children, would attack my house,

:01:49.:01:56.

would attack my family because we hear about vigilante

:01:57.:01:59.

groups all the time when somebody You can watch the full

:02:00.:02:02.

interview back by going Joanna is in the BBC

:02:03.:02:07.

Newsroom with a summary The former deputy first minister

:02:08.:02:23.

of Northern Ireland, Martin McGuinness, has died

:02:24.:02:26.

at the age of 66. He'd been suffering

:02:27.:02:28.

from a rare heart condition. President of Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams,

:02:29.:02:30.

described him as a "passionate Republican who worked tirelessly

:02:31.:02:33.

for peace and reconciliation." Theresa May has said that the fomer

:02:34.:02:37.

IRA commander made an "essential and historic contribution"

:02:38.:02:40.

to the peace process in Northern Ireland -

:02:41.:02:43.

but she said she could "never To paint a true picture

:02:44.:02:46.

of Martin McGuinness, He was a paramilitary

:02:47.:02:52.

who once embraced violence, but also a peacemaker who reached

:02:53.:03:02.

out to rivals, a man who could be Born in Londonderry,

:03:03.:03:05.

into a large Catholic family, Martin McGuinness came of age

:03:06.:03:10.

as Northern Ireland's In that time of violence,

:03:11.:03:15.

he joined the IRA, quickly Can you say whether the bombing is

:03:16.:03:20.

likely to stop in the near future, Well, I always take

:03:21.:03:28.

into consideration the feelings The 1970s saw him become one

:03:29.:03:33.

of the faces of ruthless Irish republicanism,

:03:34.:03:39.

and he was jailed for terrorist McGuinness has changed considerably

:03:40.:03:41.

from the young man who used to swagger around the no-go areas

:03:42.:03:48.

in Londonderry, as commander What had started as a fight

:03:49.:03:50.

for civil rights had Yet, alongside the many

:03:51.:03:56.

bombings and shootings, Martin McGuinness saw opportunities

:03:57.:04:03.

at the ballot box for Sinn Fein, the political

:04:04.:04:05.

party linked to the IRA. Even then, the language

:04:06.:04:08.

of threat remained. We don't believe that winning

:04:09.:04:12.

elections, and winning any amount of votes,

:04:13.:04:14.

will bring freedom in Ireland. At the end of the day,

:04:15.:04:18.

it will be the cutting edge of IRA But, after years of killings

:04:19.:04:21.

and chaos, in the 1990s, IRA ceasefires offered

:04:22.:04:25.

the opportunity for talks Not only would they shake

:04:26.:04:27.

hands, after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement,

:04:28.:04:42.

they joined each Eventually, at its head

:04:43.:04:43.

was the unlikely partnership of two former enemies -

:04:44.:04:49.

Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness. The firebrand unionist and radical

:04:50.:04:54.

republican became so close that they were nicknamed the Chuckle

:04:55.:04:56.

Brothers. There were republicans who continued

:04:57.:05:04.

to threaten that political progress. But when a police officer

:05:05.:05:09.

was killed, the then-deputy first minister stood side-by-side

:05:10.:05:12.

with the chief constable to condemn They are traitors to

:05:13.:05:14.

the island of Ireland. Alongside the words,

:05:15.:05:20.

there were actions on all sides. The Queen's cousin Lord Mountbatten

:05:21.:05:24.

was killed by the IRA. Yet, after the Troubles,

:05:25.:05:30.

royal and republican were able Thank you very much,

:05:31.:05:32.

I am still alive! However, relationships at Stormont

:05:33.:05:36.

always seemed strained after Ian Paisley stepped down

:05:37.:05:44.

as First Minister, to be replaced by Peter Robinson,

:05:45.:05:46.

and then Arlene Foster. Earlier this year, with his

:05:47.:05:51.

ill-health by then obvious, Martin McGuinness walked out

:05:52.:05:53.

of government, amid a row between Sinn Fein and the DUP,

:05:54.:05:57.

the boy from Derry's Bogside retiring as deputy first minister

:05:58.:06:00.

after years in the IRA. I've been over 25 years working

:06:01.:06:03.

and building the peace. The past actions of the IRA

:06:04.:06:13.

will colour many people's views But as a republican who worked

:06:14.:06:15.

towards reconciliation, he will be remembered as a key

:06:16.:06:21.

figure in changing Northern Ireland. Much more reaction to his death

:06:22.:06:32.

coming up on the programme. The rate of inflation has exceeded

:06:33.:06:37.

the Bank of England's two per cent target for the first

:06:38.:06:40.

time since 2013. Consumer prices leapt by 2.3

:06:41.:06:45.

per cent in February - Experts say rising food prices

:06:46.:06:48.

because of fall in the value A father has told this

:06:49.:06:55.

programme his life was ruined when police wrongly accused him

:06:56.:07:00.

of being a paedophile after a typing error sent officers

:07:01.:07:02.

to the wrong address. Nigel Lang, from Sheffield,

:07:03.:07:04.

was arrested on suspicion of possessing indecent

:07:05.:07:06.

images of children. He was subsequently suspended

:07:07.:07:11.

from work and wasn't He was eventually cleared

:07:12.:07:13.

when it was discovered that police had mistakenly added an extra digit

:07:14.:07:19.

to an IP address linked Hertfordshire Constabulary

:07:20.:07:21.

later admitted the error and apologised to Mr Lang,

:07:22.:07:27.

who was awarded compensation. He told Victoria how the ordeal

:07:28.:07:31.

affected his family. You don't realise what impact it has

:07:32.:07:45.

had on them because you are the one who is fighting, fighting the fight

:07:46.:07:51.

to clear your name and I was just a possessed. I felt compelled to clear

:07:52.:07:58.

my name, because this was far reaching.

:07:59.:08:00.

A man has been charged with the murder of a one year

:08:01.:08:02.

Bidhya Sagar Das, who's 33, is also charged with attempting

:08:03.:08:06.

to murder the boy's twin sister, who remains in a critical

:08:07.:08:09.

Both children were discovered with serious injuries

:08:10.:08:13.

at a flat near Finsbury Park on Saturday night.

:08:14.:08:17.

A two-day debate at the Scottish Parliament will get under way later,

:08:18.:08:21.

as First Minister Nicola Sturgeon makes her case for a second

:08:22.:08:23.

The Scottish National Party leader will seek Holyrood's backing to ask

:08:24.:08:28.

Westminster for the power to hold another vote, despite

:08:29.:08:31.

the Prime Minister saying "now is not the time".

:08:32.:08:40.

More at 10:30am. Thank you for your messages about the case of Nigel

:08:41.:08:48.

Lang. You saw a clip of him in the news. The man accused of possessing

:08:49.:08:56.

indecent images of children because of a typo. Stephen says, I am a

:08:57.:09:01.

police officer and people from all walks of life make the stakes but in

:09:02.:09:06.

this case when someone's family is turned upside down surely an apology

:09:07.:09:11.

is not. People get compensated for far less. Sort this manner. Gary

:09:12.:09:17.

said he hopes the man is able to find purpose in peace and shame on

:09:18.:09:21.

the police for their obvious disregard for his human rights.

:09:22.:09:26.

Please wish Nigel Best of the future. Another says a simple typo

:09:27.:09:31.

turned his life upside down. He sounds crushed by it. It is awful.

:09:32.:09:36.

You can see the interview on the programme page. If you are getting

:09:37.:09:43.

in touch you are very welcome. The latest sport now.

:09:44.:09:45.

Here's some sport now with Olly Foster.

:09:46.:09:50.

Yesterday we looked at doping in amateur sport, and today it is about

:09:51.:09:56.

e sport. E-sports is competitive

:09:57.:09:58.

computer gaming. It's a massive industry already

:09:59.:10:01.

and is expected to double in size, breaking ?1 billion in global

:10:02.:10:07.

revenue and push its audience Paris St-Germain, the French

:10:08.:10:10.

football club, have created They don't play football games

:10:11.:10:18.

because where the real money is at the moment is in these fantasy

:10:19.:10:34.

shoot-em up or battlefield games. With millions of players online

:10:35.:10:38.

and all the commercial and sponsorship spin-offs that go

:10:39.:10:40.

with that kind of audience. The club is trying to expand into

:10:41.:10:47.

new markets. Going into markets where football cannot.

:10:48.:10:49.

Here is the e-sports analyst Peter Warman

:10:50.:10:51.

E sport compared to traditional, already audience size justifies the

:10:52.:11:03.

position in the top ten of sports worldwide and revenue wise I expect

:11:04.:11:07.

it will take them another five years but then it will be one of the top

:11:08.:11:14.

five sports in the world. I do not see a risk of e-sports being a hype.

:11:15.:11:22.

Are they healthy is the question I am supposed to ask you in a po-faced

:11:23.:11:28.

way? Would you have thought of sitting in

:11:29.:11:33.

front of a computer screen for ten hours a day, which it takes to

:11:34.:11:38.

become a top gamer is what we are concerned about. Children still want

:11:39.:11:47.

to be the next Harry Kane, Jessica Ennis-Hill, but this e-sports thing

:11:48.:11:53.

is growing and the average age of followers is 20-35, older than you

:11:54.:11:58.

might think. But they say it takes dedication and you cannot be a

:11:59.:12:05.

fatty, you have to be fit to rise to the top. There are tens of thousands

:12:06.:12:09.

in arenas watching the sport take place. There is the competitive

:12:10.:12:14.

nature of it. There are so many millions online. Children watch

:12:15.:12:21.

them. They can see them making a lot of money playing games to a high

:12:22.:12:24.

standard but how many times have I told my boy, are you sure that is

:12:25.:12:36.

enough Fifa four today? "Without him there

:12:37.:12:39.

would be no peace" - to the former deputy first minister

:12:40.:12:41.

of Northern Ireland and one-time IRA commander

:12:42.:12:45.

Martin McGuinness, who has died this He had been suffering

:12:46.:12:48.

from a rare heart condition. leader turned peacemaker worked

:12:49.:12:52.

at the heart of the power-sharing government following the 1998

:12:53.:12:55.

Good Friday Agreement. That brought an end to the troubles

:12:56.:13:00.

in Northern Ireland. Let's hear now some of the things

:13:01.:13:11.

people have been saying Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams said

:13:12.:13:14.

he was a "passionate republican who worked tirelessly for peace

:13:15.:13:18.

and reconciliation and for Throughout his life Martin showed

:13:19.:13:20.

great determination, dignity and humility and it was no

:13:21.:13:23.

different during his short illness." Prime Minister Theresa May says that

:13:24.:13:26.

while she can never condone the path Martin McGuinnness took

:13:27.:13:29.

in his early life, he "ultimately played a defining role in leading

:13:30.:13:33.

the Republican movement Former Prime Minister Tony Blair

:13:34.:13:35.

said the peace process would not have been possible

:13:36.:13:49.

without the "leadership and courage" Ian Paisley's son had this to say.

:13:50.:14:08.

It is not how you start your life that is important, it is how you

:14:09.:14:13.

finish your life and a lot of people will be thankful Martin McGuinness

:14:14.:14:16.

finished his life a lot better than it would have been. Victims

:14:17.:14:21.

campaigner Alan Wright, whose wife was killed in an IRA bomb, said

:14:22.:14:26.

Northern Ireland owes a gratitude to Martin McGuinness. His fingerprints

:14:27.:14:31.

are all over the troubles, but also over the peace process. Lord Tebbit

:14:32.:14:38.

was one of those injured by an Ray Ban in 1984. He told us that the

:14:39.:14:42.

world was a sweeter place without Martin McGuinness in it and he

:14:43.:14:46.

described Martin McGuinness as a coward. We can speak now to

:14:47.:14:50.

politicians who worked closely with him. Lord Hain.

:14:51.:15:02.

We're also joined from Westminster by the SDLP MP Mark Durkan,

:15:03.:15:10.

who was Deputy First Minister from 2001-2 and leader

:15:11.:15:12.

who has spent much of his career reporting on Northern Ireland

:15:13.:15:18.

and first met Martin McGuinness shortly after Bloody Sunday in 1972.

:15:19.:15:23.

Where British soldiers shot civilians.

:15:24.:15:32.

Lord Hain how would you reflect on the life of Martin McGuinness? In

:15:33.:15:41.

the settlement we negotiated in 2007, that you'll remember brought

:15:42.:15:44.

Martin McGuinness together with Ian Paisley. Bitter old enemies. It was

:15:45.:15:50.

hard work achieving that negotiated settlement, but they were able to

:15:51.:15:55.

rule as First Minister and Deputy First Ministers joint leaders of the

:15:56.:15:59.

Northern Ireland Government together very effectively bringing a sense of

:16:00.:16:05.

reconciliation between bitter old enemies who had never actually even

:16:06.:16:10.

exchanged a word between each other prior to the negotiations in which I

:16:11.:16:15.

was involved under Tony Blair. And that conversion of Martin

:16:16.:16:19.

McGuinness from paramilitary to peacemaker, you're clear that was

:16:20.:16:24.

genuine? Oh yes, it was. I think it dated back from the time when the

:16:25.:16:30.

IRA and Martin McGuinness was a leader of the IRA. He made no secret

:16:31.:16:36.

of that when he and Gerry Adams decided working with John Hume and

:16:37.:16:42.

the SDLP and others that there was no way in which the bomb and the

:16:43.:16:47.

bullet and the terror of the IRA could actually defeat the British

:16:48.:16:54.

Army and kick Northern Ireland into a united Ireland. That they had to

:16:55.:16:59.

pursue a democratic path. Equally at that period, the British Government

:17:00.:17:03.

decided it couldn't defeat them, the IRA militarily. So there was a

:17:04.:17:09.

moving together, a convergence to recognise that a negotiated

:17:10.:17:12.

settlement, it took a long time to achieve would be the only way

:17:13.:17:17.

forward and in that respect, Martin McGuinness was crucial. His

:17:18.:17:22.

conversion to the democratic path from the paramilitary path, from the

:17:23.:17:27.

harror and terror of the IRA into working together with former

:17:28.:17:30.

unionist foes and other politicians in the Northern Ireland Government

:17:31.:17:35.

was a part of Northern Ireland's transition in which many politicians

:17:36.:17:41.

played their role, but he was very important with the grass-roots IRA

:17:42.:17:47.

credibility amongst republicans to persuade them to give up the war, to

:17:48.:17:53.

sign up to support justice and support for policing and the rule of

:17:54.:17:57.

law in Northern Ireland, and to move forward together with their old

:17:58.:18:01.

enemies. Thank you, Lord Hain. Mark Durkan, how did you find Martin

:18:02.:18:07.

McGuinness? Well, obviously as someone who is based in Derry,

:18:08.:18:12.

Martin McGuinness was my constituent but he certainly didn't vote for me

:18:13.:18:18.

and made that very clear! But one who I worked with over many years

:18:19.:18:27.

going back to Hume-Adams days and he was someone who was a tough

:18:28.:18:31.

opponent. He's someone who would have been sceptical of arguments

:18:32.:18:34.

that were put in front of him and would have to be convinced himself

:18:35.:18:39.

before he would take it upon himself to convince others, but we had that

:18:40.:18:43.

sense throughout the peace process that if we could keep going, even

:18:44.:18:47.

though the violence was still continuing while the dialogue went

:18:48.:18:51.

on, that we could get to a point where we would get a cessation of

:18:52.:18:56.

violence and that could create the context in which there would be

:18:57.:19:01.

negotiations and while Martin was sceptical of the idea that we could

:19:02.:19:05.

get an agreement that the Irish people north and south would endorse

:19:06.:19:10.

and that would transform the arguments around violence the fact

:19:11.:19:14.

is once he became persuaded he became a very active persuader

:19:15.:19:19.

himself. So we saw him then embrace not just the talks process, but the

:19:20.:19:23.

agreement and the fact that it got a mandate from the people of Ireland

:19:24.:19:27.

and he was someone who in public office reflected not just his own

:19:28.:19:31.

party's mandate about which he was understandably precious, but he also

:19:32.:19:35.

made a point of constantly reflecting the mandate that the

:19:36.:19:39.

people of Ireland had given to the agreement as well and that was one

:19:40.:19:44.

of the things that meant that he used public office towards

:19:45.:19:46.

reconciliation in a very positive way. Thank you. Mark Durkan SDLP,

:19:47.:19:54.

MP. Peter Taylor, journalist and broadcaster, when did you first meet

:19:55.:19:59.

Martin McGuinness? In 1972 shortly after Bloody Sunday, it was my

:20:00.:20:02.

introduction to the Irish conflict. I remember meeting him in the

:20:03.:20:07.

gasworks in the Bogside and I had a long talk with him. I got in touch

:20:08.:20:10.

with him because John Hume had pointed him out and said he's the

:20:11.:20:16.

person you ought to be speaking to. He struck me as being highly intell

:20:17.:20:20.

jept, very articulate and he was only 22 at the time and I always

:20:21.:20:24.

remember he said to me, I would much rather be washing my car and mowing

:20:25.:20:28.

the lawn on a Sunday than doing what I'm doing! I didn't go into detail

:20:29.:20:36.

about what he was doing. If you told me then he then that he would go on

:20:37.:20:42.

to become the most powerful IRA leader throughout most of the 40

:20:43.:20:46.

years, but also Deputy First Minister and somebody who donned

:20:47.:20:51.

white tie and tails to dine with Her Majesty the Queen at Windsor Castle,

:20:52.:20:55.

I would have thought it was just fantasy and impossible, but of

:20:56.:20:57.

course, that's what happened. And he is as you know, as others have said,

:20:58.:21:05.

he was the central figure in persuading the IRA rank and file to

:21:06.:21:13.

basically abandon the Holy Grail of the IRA and not to abandon it

:21:14.:21:17.

because they still wanted it achieve a united Ireland, but to go into

:21:18.:21:20.

power sharing at Stormont, as a means to an end of ultimaty

:21:21.:21:25.

persuading unionists to come on board and then achieve hopefully

:21:26.:21:30.

achieve their republican gold of a united Ireland. So it's a remarkable

:21:31.:21:35.

Europeany... And he was able to do it because he was one of them? Yes.

:21:36.:21:43.

He had the credibility. Again, I remember one senior IRA volunteer,

:21:44.:21:46.

because that's what they're known as volunteers, saying to me when I

:21:47.:21:49.

asked this person and others about how they felt, how the rank and file

:21:50.:21:57.

felt about going into Stormont and effectively accepting partition

:21:58.:22:01.

which is what it was, and he said, "If it's good enough for Martin,

:22:02.:22:04.

it's good enough for me and good enough for most of us." His great

:22:05.:22:09.

achievement is that he was able to persuade, because of the kind of

:22:10.:22:11.

person he was, because of his charisma and his leadership and his

:22:12.:22:16.

strategy, you must never forget that he was, I've always believed the

:22:17.:22:21.

most senior IRA man in the island of Ireland. It was because of that

:22:22.:22:26.

personality assisted and aaided by his partner Gerry Adams, you must

:22:27.:22:29.

never forget this work because they were a duo, were able to bring the

:22:30.:22:35.

IRA, Sinn Fein, into the peace process. And in the critical back

:22:36.:22:43.

channel talks that were the prerequisite of the IRA ceasefire

:22:44.:22:47.

that took place in the early 1990s which the Brits have been working on

:22:48.:22:52.

for 20 years in the shadows, it was Martin McGuinness that the MI6

:22:53.:22:59.

officer Michael Oatly first met and that's when Michael Oakley, the MI6

:23:00.:23:03.

officer, realised there was an opportunity of dialogue and Martin

:23:04.:23:08.

McGuinness also took the message back from Michael Oakley on behalf

:23:09.:23:11.

of MI6, the British Government, that some arrangement could be done. It

:23:12.:23:15.

was Martin McGuinness who was the key interlocutor for the IRA and the

:23:16.:23:21.

IRA's Army Council. So it is a remarkable story. I doubt if we

:23:22.:23:27.

would be where we are today where it not for Martin McGuinness, but one

:23:28.:23:31.

must never forget his role as an IRA leader. Now people say, many people

:23:32.:23:36.

say, many loyalists say, unionists, say he is a man with blood on his

:23:37.:23:40.

hands, what did he do? There are very few people who know precisely

:23:41.:23:44.

what he did do, but I suspect there was little that the IRA did in

:23:45.:23:49.

Northern Ireland because at one stage he was the acting head of

:23:50.:23:55.

Northern Command, that did not know what he was responsible for and

:23:56.:24:01.

certainly, when it came to the identification of suspected

:24:02.:24:05.

informers, and agents, British agents within the IRA, those who had

:24:06.:24:10.

been turned by British intelligence, I think Martin McGuinness would have

:24:11.:24:15.

known who they were, he would have been kept informed and I suspect

:24:16.:24:20.

because also he was allegedly a member of the Army Council, he would

:24:21.:24:25.

be one of those who had to give the thumbs down that the person had to

:24:26.:24:31.

be quotes executed or murdered. Incredibly power and influential

:24:32.:24:34.

figure and his legacy is assured. There have been others too who have

:24:35.:24:38.

gone from, "Terrorist to politician." But in terms of our

:24:39.:24:43.

experience over the past 40 years, there has been nobody like him.

:24:44.:24:45.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Peter Taylor.

:24:46.:24:50.

Next this morning, it's estimated that at least 1,400 children

:24:51.:24:53.

were subjected to appalling sexual exploitation and

:24:54.:24:54.

Dozens of suspects are still being investigated by the in the town

:24:55.:24:59.

after more than 15 years of widespread child sexual abuse.

:25:00.:25:02.

Girls as young as 12 were raped, abducted and tortured

:25:03.:25:05.

by gangs of predominantly British Pakistani men.

:25:06.:25:08.

Now the BBC's Asian Network and this programme have been given exclusive

:25:09.:25:11.

access to a therapy session for some of those victims and their families.

:25:12.:25:14.

They've been talking to Rickin Majithia.

:25:15.:25:23.

Rotherham is a small town with large scars.

:25:24.:25:28.

Between 1997 and 2013, at least 1,400 young girls

:25:29.:25:31.

were abused here, largely by gangs of British Pakistani men.

:25:32.:25:35.

It's expected to take many years before all of the culprits

:25:36.:25:38.

For the victims and their families, though, the pain is likely

:25:39.:25:41.

But there is one place where they can come together for support.

:25:42.:25:46.

We've been given exclusive access to a group therapy session.

:25:47.:25:49.

It's the first time cameras have been allowed in.

:25:50.:25:54.

She's worked with children in Rotherham for decades and first

:25:55.:26:05.

helped to expose the scale of the abuse.

:26:06.:26:07.

What we decided to do, probably about a year ago now,

:26:08.:26:10.

is put together some therapy sessions, so we offer

:26:11.:26:12.

We have a counsellor outside so people can actually

:26:13.:26:17.

go into counselling, relive some of their awful

:26:18.:26:19.

experiences, get the support they need and then come back

:26:20.:26:22.

into the group and the group will work with them and help

:26:23.:26:24.

The therapy provides a unique opportunity for victims

:26:25.:26:30.

I was being raped upon raped by numerous men, not knowing exactly

:26:31.:26:40.

what's going off with me because I'd been spiked by drugs

:26:41.:26:43.

Being able to relate to other people and understand that the things that

:26:44.:26:51.

I went through are very similar to the things that they have been

:26:52.:26:56.

through automatically helps me because it

:26:57.:27:03.

I was led to believe from a young age that it was my fault.

:27:04.:27:08.

More confident and I'm more open about things now,

:27:09.:27:10.

The families of abuse victims also come here to receive support.

:27:11.:27:21.

It's like you're walking round like a zombie.

:27:22.:27:23.

You've got no heart and you've no brain because you just

:27:24.:27:26.

don't know where to turn, how to feel, but inside your

:27:27.:27:29.

The only help we've had, and it saved not only me as a father,

:27:30.:27:37.

it saved our family, and without this place,

:27:38.:27:39.

Some of the parents find that they now struggle to trust

:27:40.:27:45.

I worry about the relationship she's been in since her exploitation.

:27:46.:27:52.

She were groomed at 13 and she's never actually had the opportunity

:27:53.:27:55.

to develop the normal healthy relationships that she would have if

:27:56.:27:58.

So, you know, she's going to struggle to realise

:27:59.:28:05.

what is a safe relationship that somebody cares about her,

:28:06.:28:08.

you know, that she is loved, and that's going to take

:28:09.:28:13.

a while and it will come and it's going to be difficult,

:28:14.:28:19.

and is going to be difficult for you as a mum because what you're

:28:20.:28:23.

also going to do as well is every boyfriend that she ever walks

:28:24.:28:26.

through the door with, you're going to be suspicious

:28:27.:28:28.

and you're going to judge them based on what she went through as a child.

:28:29.:28:32.

This girl, who we're calling Lizzie, attends with her parents.

:28:33.:28:37.

In 2010, five men were jailed for abusing her and other girls

:28:38.:28:40.

It's understood that all have since been released.

:28:41.:28:45.

These are her parents. We're calling them Phil and Sally.

:28:46.:28:50.

She doesn't like being in Rotherham. She doesn't feel comfortable at all.

:28:51.:28:54.

I don't know what it is, it must be anxiety or whatever,

:28:55.:28:57.

She won't go out anywhere, won't do anything.

:28:58.:29:00.

She just felt it better for herself that she was out of town.

:29:01.:29:04.

I think she still doesn't feel safe. I don't know what it is.

:29:05.:29:08.

How have centres and programmes like the one here helped you to overcome

:29:09.:29:16.

It's the only place that does a family therapy class.

:29:17.:29:20.

At the time, you don't think of how it affects...

:29:21.:29:23.

I didn't think of how it affects my husband,

:29:24.:29:26.

and then when I didn't realise how bad it had affected him,

:29:27.:29:29.

I felt a bit selfish because it affects a whole

:29:30.:29:32.

When it's going off, all your focus is just on the girl

:29:33.:29:40.

Another woman who attends the sessions is Lisa,

:29:41.:29:48.

As a young girl, she was groomed by a gang of men.

:29:49.:29:52.

I were left there for 24 hours, 48 hours.

:29:53.:30:05.

Last month, six men were collectively jailed

:30:06.:30:08.

In a statement in court, Lisa described them as pure evil.

:30:09.:30:14.

It's been more than 15 years since he was sexually exploited.

:30:15.:30:19.

Has their sentence given you a sense of finality to this?

:30:20.:30:21.

Since I found that they were found guilty, my anxiety and depression

:30:22.:30:30.

and everything just started to disappear slowly.

:30:31.:30:34.

I feel so positive and empowered now that I'm finally

:30:35.:30:36.

using my horrific experience for something good.

:30:37.:30:43.

Your daughter is now a teenager herself.

:30:44.:30:45.

What fears do you have about her growing up in Rotherham?

:30:46.:30:48.

I am quite aware of everything that is still going on and that

:30:49.:30:57.

is a big fear for me, because you would think that such

:30:58.:31:01.

an explosion of what's happened and it being all over the press

:31:02.:31:04.

That scares me for her and not just her, my other children,

:31:05.:31:12.

It scares me for the future generations because it's not

:31:13.:31:15.

The whole situation needs to be highlighted properly.

:31:16.:31:21.

They need to cover it properly with people that

:31:22.:31:26.

We understand what's gone off, we understand what needs

:31:27.:31:33.

to be done and the way that we would like to have been

:31:34.:31:37.

approached as a family back then, so why not utilise that?

:31:38.:31:40.

Why not utilise victims, survivors and utilise

:31:41.:31:42.

the way that we know that we would like to

:31:43.:31:44.

So now the victims and their families are taking it upon

:31:45.:31:52.

They're visiting businesses that operate at night to teach them

:31:53.:31:59.

how to spot the signs of sexual exploitation.

:32:00.:32:01.

Investigations into Elisabeth's case are still active but that hasn't

:32:02.:32:04.

stopped her and her father from coming to this takeaway.

:32:05.:32:08.

Have you seen anything recently what's worried you?

:32:09.:32:10.

Yes, there's been a few times where I've had to walk people home

:32:11.:32:16.

for their safety because I've seen people around who have had eyes

:32:17.:32:20.

on younger children so I've decided to walk them home,

:32:21.:32:23.

purely out of choice, just to make sure they are safer,

:32:24.:32:29.

and also it's little things we do for the environment that matters,

:32:30.:32:32.

As a community, how do you think it's impacted on...?

:32:33.:32:39.

Well, racial-wise, what happens in Rotherham,

:32:40.:32:43.

what happened in Rotherham, again, Asian people mostly are being

:32:44.:32:46.

And it just defines exactly what's going on in the world as well,

:32:47.:32:52.

you know, how a minority makes mistakes and the majority

:32:53.:32:54.

Overall in the world, the same thing's happening,

:32:55.:33:04.

which is an unfortunate thing, but it's just who people are.

:33:05.:33:07.

Do you think that this programme what's being launched

:33:08.:33:09.

is going to help fetch the community back together?

:33:10.:33:11.

It doesn't matter for us whether you're white,

:33:12.:33:17.

Asian or whatever it give it means we can make a difference and bring

:33:18.:33:23.

one child's life back together and save it before it happens,

:33:24.:33:26.

it just means the world to us, and whether the community

:33:27.:33:28.

I hope it does happen, because it will just show a stronger

:33:29.:33:33.

You can't make a sound with one hand.

:33:34.:33:37.

It's got to be together, you know, to make a sound.

:33:38.:33:40.

That's what matters and that's what will make a difference.

:33:41.:33:43.

Given what happened to your family, how does it feel when you come

:33:44.:33:47.

to a place like this with your daughter to educate

:33:48.:33:49.

businesses about child sexual exploitation?

:33:50.:33:51.

The simple reason is, it just doesn't happen

:33:52.:33:58.

in the Asian community - it happens in the white

:33:59.:34:01.

And what we've got to do from now on is put that to one side and look

:34:02.:34:10.

More on that on the Asian Network throughout the day.

:34:11.:34:23.

With the news, here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom.

:34:24.:34:27.

Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness, Northern Ireland's former

:34:28.:34:29.

deputy first minister, has died aged 66.

:34:30.:34:31.

It's understood he had been suffering from

:34:32.:34:33.

The former IRA leader turned peacemaker worked at the heart

:34:34.:34:39.

of the power-sharing government following the 1998

:34:40.:34:40.

He became deputy first minister in 2007, standing alongside

:34:41.:34:44.

Democratic Unionist Party leaders Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson

:34:45.:34:47.

But he stood down from his post in January in protest

:34:48.:34:55.

against the DUP's handling of an energy scandal, in a move that

:34:56.:34:58.

Tony Blair, who was Prime Minister when the Good Friday Agreement

:34:59.:35:03.

was signed in 1998, has been speaking to the BBC this morning.

:35:04.:35:13.

Martin McGuinness had been determined to give Northern Ireland

:35:14.:35:18.

a different future despite his violent past. Some people will

:35:19.:35:22.

remember him as a man-of-war, who can never forget the violence of his

:35:23.:35:27.

early years, but for those of us who helped put together the Northern

:35:28.:35:33.

Ireland peace process with him, we will remember his legacy as a man of

:35:34.:35:40.

peace, a person whose courage and determination and leadership in the

:35:41.:35:43.

end brought us from the situation where every day people were either

:35:44.:35:50.

being injured or killed as a result of the troubles, to a place today

:35:51.:35:54.

where it is possible to talk of a genuine peace in Northern Ireland.

:35:55.:35:58.

The rate of inflation has exceeded the Bank of England's two per cent

:35:59.:36:01.

target for the first time since 2013.

:36:02.:36:03.

Consumer prices leapt by 2.3 per cent in February -

:36:04.:36:05.

Experts say rising food prices because of fall in the value

:36:06.:36:12.

A two-day debate at the Scottish Parliament will get under way later,

:36:13.:36:21.

as First Minister Nicola Sturgeon makes her case for a second

:36:22.:36:24.

The Scottish National Party leader will seek Holyrood's backing to ask

:36:25.:36:28.

Westminster for the power to hold another vote, despite

:36:29.:36:30.

the Prime Minister saying "now is not the time".

:36:31.:36:39.

Join me for BBC newsroom live at 11. And now the sport. Jamie Vardy said

:36:40.:36:50.

he received death threats from fans who hold him responsible for the

:36:51.:36:54.

sacking of Claudio Ranieri. He said he has been terrified and his family

:36:55.:36:58.

targeted after reports he was one of the players who influenced the

:36:59.:37:03.

decision to let Claudio Ranieri go. Manchester United midfielder Bastian

:37:04.:37:13.

Schweinsteiger will join an MLS team. Canadian team Toronto Wolfpack

:37:14.:37:22.

will play the Salford Red Devils in rugby league's challenge cup.

:37:23.:37:26.

Toronto beat championship side London Broncos in the last round.

:37:27.:37:30.

Lewis Hamilton team-mate Valtteri Bottas said he has no intention of

:37:31.:37:36.

being the number two driver and Mercedes. He replaced Nico Rosberg

:37:37.:37:40.

who retired after winning the World Championship. The first race of the

:37:41.:37:45.

season is next Sunday in Melbourne. I will be back after 11.

:37:46.:37:49.

To say that Martin McGuiness was a divisive figure

:37:50.:37:52.

is an understatement - a man of war who became

:37:53.:37:54.

A former IRA commander who became one of the architects

:37:55.:37:58.

of the agreement that was ultimately to bring an end to the decades

:37:59.:38:01.

He grew up in Derry's Bogside, radicalised by what he saw

:38:02.:38:06.

as discrimination and murder on the streets of his city.

:38:07.:38:12.

We believe that the only way that Irish people can bring about the

:38:13.:38:18.

freedom of their country is through the use of armed struggle.

:38:19.:38:21.

I wish it could be done in another way.

:38:22.:38:24.

If someone could tell me a peaceful way

:38:25.:38:26.

to do it, then I would gladly support that.

:38:27.:38:29.

He had a leading role in the IRA during the time

:38:30.:38:34.

the paramilitary organisation was bombing his home city.

:38:35.:38:37.

This is him addressing a rally in Tyrone, which had one of the most

:38:38.:38:40.

active republican paramilitary groups, at the height

:38:41.:38:43.

Republican people of Tyrone I am honoured to be with you to

:38:44.:38:56.

commemorate and pay tribute to the volunteers of the Irish Republican

:38:57.:39:03.

Army in this historic county who gave their lives in every generation

:39:04.:39:09.

in Ireland struggle for freedom. In doing so we are in union with

:39:10.:39:13.

Republicans in every part of Ireland in the ring the freedom fighters of

:39:14.:39:21.

the IRA who selflessly gave everything in our continued struggle

:39:22.:39:23.

against foreign occupation and domination.

:39:24.:39:24.

He went on to work at the heart of the power-sharing

:39:25.:39:26.

government following the 1998 Good Friday Agreement

:39:27.:39:28.

which eventually led to this famous handshake with the Queen and a toast

:39:29.:39:31.

By 2007, he was Northern Ireland's deputy first minister standing

:39:32.:39:39.

alongside his one time bitter political rival from

:39:40.:39:41.

the Democratic Unionst Party, First Minister Ian Paisley.

:39:42.:39:47.

Many people in this hall today played an important part in our

:39:48.:39:53.

peace process, and many others, unfortunately, could not be with us

:39:54.:39:56.

And I want to send to them our warmest thanks.

:39:57.:40:02.

We will continue to rely on that support as we strive

:40:03.:40:05.

towards a society moving from division

:40:06.:40:08.

and disharmony to one which

:40:09.:40:10.

celebrates our diversity and is determined to provide a better

:40:11.:40:14.

One which cherishes the elderly, the vulnerable, the young

:40:15.:40:25.

and all of our children equally, which welcomes

:40:26.:40:29.

warmly those from other lands and cultures who wish to join us and

:40:30.:40:32.

A society which remembers those who have lost

:40:33.:40:36.

Martin McGuinness resigned as deputy first minister

:40:37.:40:50.

in the Northern Ireland assembly at the beginning of the year

:40:51.:40:52.

in protest against the Democratic Unionist Party's handling

:40:53.:40:55.

of an energy scandal, which eventually triggered

:40:56.:40:57.

During his last press conference, Mr McGuinness

:40:58.:41:04.

During his last press conference, Mr McGuinness appeared frail.

:41:05.:41:06.

He died in hospital in his home city of Londonderry early this morning,

:41:07.:41:09.

We can speak now to the former Conservative leader

:41:10.:41:14.

Iain Duncan Smith, who served as a soldier in Northern Ireland

:41:15.:41:22.

and to Lord Bew, who's Professor of Irish Politics

:41:23.:41:27.

at Queen's University Belfast and was also historical adviser

:41:28.:41:30.

That looked into the events of Bloody Sunday where British soldiers

:41:31.:41:41.

shot 26 unarmed civilians during a peaceful protest. Iain Duncan Smith,

:41:42.:41:44.

your reflections on Martin McGuinness. He will divide opinion

:41:45.:41:51.

enormously. There will be people who hark back to his time in the IRA

:41:52.:41:58.

where he was no doubt responsible for a series of bombings and

:41:59.:42:06.

outrages that lost many people'slives, their families, and

:42:07.:42:09.

even Norman Tebbit today was on television talking about how he

:42:10.:42:13.

considers him to be a murderer. At the same time we want also to

:42:14.:42:17.

remember at some point he decided this didn't succeed and they had to

:42:18.:42:23.

formulate the peace process with the others and that has been what we

:42:24.:42:27.

hold onto now most dear, that the next generation should not face what

:42:28.:42:32.

my generation and people living in Northern Ireland, the army and

:42:33.:42:37.

police faced, in Birmingham, Manchester, London, where there were

:42:38.:42:41.

bombings and people still seek justice for their lost ones. It is

:42:42.:42:47.

not a time to say you have to think of him as a peacemaker. I simply say

:42:48.:42:54.

whatever your judgment, we have to give thanks in this sense Martin

:42:55.:42:57.

McGuinness decided the road to peace was the road he should now take and

:42:58.:43:00.

with that I believe the peace process came about and I give thanks

:43:01.:43:10.

for that. Lord Bew, as a professor of Irish politics, how will history

:43:11.:43:15.

remember him? I would like to echo the last point made. The last time I

:43:16.:43:20.

saw Martin McGuinness was in the summer, when he was speaking at

:43:21.:43:26.

Glentoran football club, in the heart of Protestant east Belfast,

:43:27.:43:29.

and he spoke with such eloquence and was very well received. It is a good

:43:30.:43:36.

memory. People sometimes say not much has changed in Northern

:43:37.:43:41.

Ireland. I recall that event, a dramatic change. Everybody and

:43:42.:43:45.

Martin himself was honest about this, saying he was a member of the

:43:46.:43:50.

IRA. There is a key question about that early involve them. There is a

:43:51.:43:56.

tendency to act set it as in voluntary. There is human agency and

:43:57.:44:01.

it is not just that people like John Hume opposed the path to violence

:44:02.:44:06.

and sectarianism, it is the fact radicals in Derry like Eamon McCann,

:44:07.:44:16.

and others look at their testimony about this period when the IRA gets

:44:17.:44:21.

off the ground. There is a question of choices made. Were people who

:44:22.:44:25.

wanted change in Northern Ireland who did not make the choice for

:44:26.:44:30.

violence and we should respect them as well at this moment. Some have

:44:31.:44:36.

said this morning that the peace process, going back further, the

:44:37.:44:43.

ceasefire that was brokered in 1994, four years before the Good Friday

:44:44.:44:47.

Agreement, could not have been done without Martin McGuinness, do you

:44:48.:44:52.

agree? There is no question he was critical to that process because of

:44:53.:44:56.

course he was the man making in some senses the biggest journey. Having

:44:57.:45:02.

served in the Bogside, I lost friends as a result of the troubles

:45:03.:45:06.

and there are many families in Britain who have done so, and so the

:45:07.:45:12.

idea of peace is important, very tangible and hanging onto it and

:45:13.:45:16.

getting it right is correct. Moving over to do that, the answer is yes,

:45:17.:45:20.

but there were many people who did not choose the road to violence as a

:45:21.:45:25.

way to this, so there will be divided opinion but my sense is we

:45:26.:45:30.

have a peace process that happened because the majority of the IRA led

:45:31.:45:36.

by McGuinness decided to lay down arms and to never again take them up

:45:37.:45:41.

and this is the key element we have to hold onto for the next

:45:42.:45:45.

generation, because it is horrific the idea of a democratic country

:45:46.:45:51.

including Northern Ireland could go through such horror because people

:45:52.:45:55.

refuse to accept there is a rule of law and there is a better way to do

:45:56.:45:58.

this and I hope we will never return to that again.

:45:59.:46:02.

You're Chair of the Committee on standards in public life and on

:46:03.:46:08.

Thursday you will be discussing the appointment of George Osborne,

:46:09.:46:10.

former chancellor, and Conservative MP for Tatton as editor of the

:46:11.:46:16.

London Evening Standard. Is there a conflict of interest between being

:46:17.:46:20.

an MP, Conservative MP and editor of a newspaper? Look, there is a great

:46:21.:46:25.

public debate about that particular case and point. My committee is much

:46:26.:46:30.

more concerned with the actual issue, not any personality. It's our

:46:31.:46:34.

job to deal with the issue. The issue is that in 2009 we recommended

:46:35.:46:40.

a particular way of dealing with MPs who had second jobs and we

:46:41.:46:44.

recommended a compromise. The question is in the light of

:46:45.:46:50.

increased public debate whether or not, where we're going to stand on

:46:51.:46:54.

that? It is not an individual case that concerns us. It is really not

:46:55.:46:58.

our role to respond too much to directly individual cases. It's our

:46:59.:47:03.

role to deal with the broader issue and there is now an issue about

:47:04.:47:09.

whether or not our ruling in 2009 which was that as long as MPs told

:47:10.:47:12.

their constituents at the time of election that they might have this

:47:13.:47:16.

or that second job, whether it should stand and there is a very

:47:17.:47:20.

good argument in favour of that at the time, we need people with wider

:47:21.:47:24.

experience in Parliament or whether or not there are requirements and so

:47:25.:47:29.

on. But that's now, that's the issue for us, not an individual case, but

:47:30.:47:35.

that deep issue about MPs and second jobs and... I understand. Let me ask

:47:36.:47:42.

about the broader issue. Can you be an MP and have five different jobs?

:47:43.:47:47.

That's obviously part of the discussion. There is now... What do

:47:48.:47:53.

you think? I'm, I've got a committee now which will be nine people and I

:47:54.:47:58.

want them to have to be able to say precisely what they think. We've

:47:59.:48:01.

read everything. We are well aware of the intensity of the public

:48:02.:48:04.

debate, but it is the job of the committee as a committee which

:48:05.:48:06.

includes representatives of the three main parties to come to some

:48:07.:48:11.

kind of consensus and it doesn't help if the chairman starts saying

:48:12.:48:15.

too much in pick before our meeting on Thursday. Should he have referred

:48:16.:48:21.

this appointment to you first before it was publicly announced? No, the

:48:22.:48:28.

issue here and it is part of our remit on this point is the committee

:48:29.:48:33.

which deals with these matters. They have a particular role. It is

:48:34.:48:37.

certainly our view that the work of that committee should be respected

:48:38.:48:42.

and facilitated by everybody. It is a light touch attempt to regulate

:48:43.:48:47.

and reach requirements because people are leaving politics younger

:48:48.:48:51.

these days and people do have a right to earn a living and that

:48:52.:48:55.

committee has played a very substantial role in very difficult

:48:56.:48:59.

circumstances. Are you disappointed he didn't refer it to them? I will

:49:00.:49:04.

simply. Well, no, there is a question mark and a timeline and

:49:05.:49:07.

there is a debate about that. I will simply say that our committee firmly

:49:08.:49:10.

believes that that committee should be treated with great respect

:49:11.:49:16.

because it's trying to do a very difficult job in the public

:49:17.:49:20.

interest. The inference there is you don't think it has been treated with

:49:21.:49:25.

respect? There are details this all these cases which complicate the

:49:26.:49:28.

matters because unfortunately in this area, there are always

:49:29.:49:32.

complications. There are always special twists and people always

:49:33.:49:37.

have different views. But if you're asking me does the Committee on

:49:38.:49:45.

Standards have a role in defending bodies like IPSA or ACO BA who have

:49:46.:49:53.

to make difficult choices, when sometimes the public are in an

:49:54.:49:57.

impatient and angry mood, I do believe those bodies should really

:49:58.:50:00.

be respected because everybody connected with them is trying their

:50:01.:50:04.

best to deal with difficult issues which there is no simple solution

:50:05.:50:08.

to. Can you be clear on this - your committee is going to have to review

:50:09.:50:13.

the rules as a result of some MPs taking more than one job. Yes. As

:50:14.:50:18.

well as being an MP? We're committed to a debate and review. I've said we

:50:19.:50:23.

have to now, as a committee, which and I hope the committee will be

:50:24.:50:31.

able to reach a way forward. We now have to look at, we cannot say that

:50:32.:50:35.

we have a situation exactly as it is in 2009. If only, leave this case

:50:36.:50:41.

out of the matter. We have to take into account the public opinion and

:50:42.:50:44.

the polling the committee used to draw on which was much more divided

:50:45.:50:47.

on this issue. Now public opinion has changed. It doesn't mean you buy

:50:48.:50:52.

down before it, before the polling which the committee drew on in the

:50:53.:50:56.

past is not quite in the same place. It is not in the same place. The

:50:57.:51:00.

public is much more spentical. This again doesn't mean we bow down

:51:01.:51:05.

before it. It does mean we've reached the point where we have to

:51:06.:51:08.

have a review and a debate about these issues. I understand. Will as

:51:09.:51:13.

part of your review, your committee be looking at whether MPs should

:51:14.:51:18.

have second jobs at all? Look, if you're going to have a debate,

:51:19.:51:23.

you've got on the one side, there is the very strong belief of many

:51:24.:51:28.

people and I saw it forcefully stated in the Times editorial

:51:29.:51:32.

yesterday. Saying that you know we have too many purely professional

:51:33.:51:36.

politicians, the public hates the idea that we have people who have

:51:37.:51:40.

done nothing in their life, but politics in Parliament and if you

:51:41.:51:43.

have people who have got medical or legal experience, they are likely to

:51:44.:51:47.

want to carry it on in some way in Parliament. So you've got the

:51:48.:51:50.

balance between that argument which has to be taken seriously and the

:51:51.:51:53.

balance of keeping elder states with the politics if you can and the

:51:54.:51:57.

other argument we have to take into account which is the argument that

:51:58.:52:00.

in fact a lot of the public believe and there is an argument that, that

:52:01.:52:05.

the salaries of MPs have risen, we have to take the counter arguments

:52:06.:52:09.

into account that believe that MPs shouldn't have second jobsment you

:52:10.:52:12.

can't have a debate and say there is a certain line of argument that we

:52:13.:52:15.

exclude from discussion. That will not happen. There are nine lively

:52:16.:52:20.

people who will be discussing this on my committee on Thursday. And

:52:21.:52:25.

they're not going to accept that there is some kind of view which is

:52:26.:52:29.

so out landishly radical it can't be heard. Thank you very much.

:52:30.:52:37.

Should Scotland have a second referendum on independence?

:52:38.:52:44.

The issue is being debated in the Scottish Parliament today.

:52:45.:52:46.

Nicola Sturgeon's SNP party wants to hold another vote in the autumn

:52:47.:52:52.

of 2018 and the spring of the following year -

:52:53.:52:55.

before the UK leaves the EU - saying most Scots want to remain

:52:56.:52:58.

We can talk to two people who'll be taking part in the debate.

:52:59.:53:06.

In Edinburgh, the Conservative member of the Scottish Parliament.

:53:07.:53:12.

Miles Briggs, whose party doesn't want a referendum.

:53:13.:53:14.

Steve Dewar, who believes Scotland should be independent,

:53:15.:53:20.

that's what he voted for in 2014 and is pleased that the country

:53:21.:53:24.

may again have a chance to vote on the issue.

:53:25.:53:28.

And Judy LocHart who doesn't think a second vote is justified. They're in

:53:29.:53:35.

Glasgow. Jeremy, good morning to you -- Joan. If Theresa May doesn't give

:53:36.:53:39.

per mirbs in the time scale that you want it, how could you force this

:53:40.:53:45.

vote? Well, basically, what we are saying is that sovereignty lies with

:53:46.:53:48.

the Scottish people, that's been widely recognised in the past and we

:53:49.:53:52.

will have, we already have an endorsement in our manifesto of the

:53:53.:53:57.

SNP manifesto said we would hold that referendum if we were dragged

:53:58.:54:01.

out of the EU against our will. So the Scottish Parliament will now

:54:02.:54:05.

vote for the section 30 and then the ball is in the court of the UK

:54:06.:54:09.

Government to show that it respects Scotland as an equal partner in the

:54:10.:54:12.

Union, respects our manifesto and respects the views of the Scottish

:54:13.:54:16.

Parliament. If it doesn't, would you have an informal referendum anyway,

:54:17.:54:20.

what's known as an advisory referendum? Well, the First Minister

:54:21.:54:23.

hasn't said that, no. What do you think? Well, I think the ball is in

:54:24.:54:27.

the court of the UK Government. I mean Theresa May came to... Would

:54:28.:54:33.

you like... Would you like an advisory referendum? Theresa May

:54:34.:54:36.

said she would respect the views of Scotland. We would have a UK-wide

:54:37.:54:40.

approach to Brexit. That clearly has not happened and the views of the

:54:41.:54:44.

62% of Scots who voted to remain have been ignored by the UK

:54:45.:54:48.

Government. The UK Government haven't even told the Scottish

:54:49.:54:51.

Government when they're triggering Article 50. They told the BBC first.

:54:52.:54:56.

OK. Myles Briggs as a Conservative MSP, what is the sort of time scale

:54:57.:54:59.

when a referendum could be held in Scotland? Good morning, Victoria.

:55:00.:55:03.

There is a lot of anger actually in Scotland today that we're going

:55:04.:55:06.

through this all over again. I'm asking you about the time scale,

:55:07.:55:10.

when a referendum could be held? What we've said and what the Prime

:55:11.:55:14.

Minister has been clear on, now is not the time. So that's why I'm

:55:15.:55:17.

asking about the time scale? Indeed. We're going through what is one of

:55:18.:55:21.

the most difficult times in our country's future. Around exiting the

:55:22.:55:25.

EU. We need all politicians to be focussed on working on that and

:55:26.:55:28.

getting the best possible deal for Scotland. And after that, after the

:55:29.:55:33.

Brexit deal, what sort of time scale? To answer your question

:55:34.:55:38.

specifically. Please. The First Minister said that the people in

:55:39.:55:42.

Scotland when they want a referendum, she would listen to

:55:43.:55:45.

that. Now, poll after poll in Scotland shows no one wants another

:55:46.:55:51.

referendum. We're seeing 60% of people saying they don't want to

:55:52.:55:54.

return to the politics of grievance and division as we saw two years

:55:55.:55:58.

ago. You would like another referendum vote, Steve. Yes. But

:55:59.:56:04.

according to Conservatives and others actually, there is just not a

:56:05.:56:08.

majority of people who want a second referendum? I mean, they are going

:56:09.:56:15.

to find a fundamental change leaving the EU which is something I voted

:56:16.:56:19.

against and most people I know voted against and it is something that we

:56:20.:56:23.

don't really want to take part in. If the UK is going to go ahead with

:56:24.:56:26.

that, it seems the only way not to be part of that process is to be an

:56:27.:56:30.

independent country. So for me there has to be another vote. The SNP told

:56:31.:56:33.

me there would be another vote and that's one of the reasons I voted

:56:34.:56:38.

for them last year. Judy, you really don't want a second independence

:56:39.:56:41.

referendum. What should happen now then? I think nothing should happen.

:56:42.:56:47.

The people of Scotland voted decisively to remain as part of the

:56:48.:56:51.

United Kingdom. The UK voted to leave the EU so that's what should

:56:52.:56:55.

happen. We were told it was a once in a generation vote on independence

:56:56.:57:00.

and the people who wanted to remain won the vote so democracy should be

:57:01.:57:04.

respected. Nobody apart from the SNP is calling for a second referendum.

:57:05.:57:07.

It was in their manifesto. They were, you know, their majority

:57:08.:57:11.

partner in the Scottish Government... They don't have a

:57:12.:57:16.

majority. A majority partner so that says it all. In their manifesto it

:57:17.:57:20.

said if there was to be a material change in the circumstances of the

:57:21.:57:23.

UK then they would call for a second vote and Brexit is a material

:57:24.:57:28.

change, is it not? Well, I disagree what about all the millions of

:57:29.:57:31.

people who voted for Brexit, but not only that, the SNP can say what they

:57:32.:57:35.

want in their manifesto, and the majority of Scotland didn't vote for

:57:36.:57:37.

that. Thank you very much.

:57:38.:57:42.

The vote, the debate over the next couple of days. Thank you very much.

:57:43.:57:59.

We will hear how Premier League clubs are setting up their own pupil

:58:00.:58:07.

referral units and we will bring you access to Everton's own school.

:58:08.:58:10.

That's tomorrow. Bye-bye.

:58:11.:58:33.

The alternative spirit of 6 Music comes to Glasgow

:58:34.:58:45.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS