19/03/2017 MOTD2 Extra


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19/03/2017

Mark Chapman and guests discuss Saturday's matches and preview Sunday's Premier League fixtures, including Manchester City's clash with top-four rivals Liverpool.


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Good afternoon and welcome to Match of the Day two Extra. We are on BBC

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Two, on five live and on the BBC Sport website. With me this

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afternoon, former Wales and Liverpool striker Dean Saunders,

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Chief football writer for the Times, Henry Winter, and the Match of the

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Day commentator Steve Gibson. You can get in touch on Twitter or by

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text. On the following subjects, we will be asking if it is when and not

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if for Arsene Wenger. Chelsea close in on the title, are they everything

:00:58.:01:03.

Arsenal are not? And two more goals for Romelu Lukaku, but how much

:01:04.:01:09.

longer will he be an Everton player? Most of the papers focusing on

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Arsenal, aside from the Ireland England game. The Daily mail

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Romelu Lukaku's feature at Everton comes down to a question of respect,

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they say. There is an early kick-off in the Premier League this

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lunchtime, it is at the Riverside Stadium and it got under way about

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15 minutes ago, Middlesbrough against Manchester United. Ian

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Brown. It is still 0-0, but both teams have had good chances. Marcus

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Rashford was through on goal keeper Victor Valdes but it was a fairly

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tame effort and the keeper was able to save lay down to his left. We're

:01:59.:02:02.

promised a more enterprising Middlesbrough under Steve Agnew and

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we've seen signs of that. Gaston Ramirez with a shot at the edge of

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the penalty area which was turned away at full stretch by David de

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Gea. Stewart Downing, recalled straightaway by Middlesbrough after

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the departure of Aitor Karanka, Man United with seven changes but knows

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Zlatan Ibrahimovic or Paul Pogba and Henrikh Mkhitaryan is only on the

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bench. No Wayne Rooney in the match day squad. Let's start with Arsenal

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and Arsene Wenger after their 3-1 defeat at West Brom yesterday. We

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will talk about the performance in just a moment, but this is what

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Wenger had to say in the press conference when he was asked about

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his future. If you announce a decision on your future do you think

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that will change the attitude of the fans who are protesting? I don't

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know. Don't worry, I know what I will do in the future. So you will

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soon know, very soon. Is the uncertainty the main problem here?

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Those interviews he does, he seems to have been doing them for years

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and they always seem to be the same. He doesn't say much and he just bats

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back every question. But I think the pace is gathering and people want to

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see a James. He's been a great manager over the years and I

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certainly don't feel comfortable sitting here criticising Arsene

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Wenger, but it has come to the point where... Why not? Well, looking at

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it from the outside, when I try to look to see what is going wrong, I

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think there is a bit of a blame culture and that is what happens

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with footballers, they never blame themselves. Within the squad, in the

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dressing room, when you're not getting results, the front players

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and say there's no service, the midfield players say the back four

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is too deep, the back four say they are having to go deep because there

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is no pressure on the ball. They sit in their corners and start blaming

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each other. Then I think there is a lack of discipline in the camp. When

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you look at the way they played against Bayern Munich when they went

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3-1 down, people not their jobs. Yesterday against West Brom, zonal

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marking. I looked at both the goals they conceded and there were at

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least eight players not doing their jobs properly. I have had zonal

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marking with my teams and you have to spend hours and hours correcting

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players. They have to move a yard. When its man marking, it's quite

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simple. You marking and nine, you mark number ten. You don't have to

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spend hours doing it. But when it is zonal marking that certain things

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that kangaroo. It looked to me as if they just said, you two Mark and you

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four just do what you want. If there is a blame culture, which I think a

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lot of people would agree with, certainly when watching the players

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and how they performed yesterday, is he responsible for allowing the

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blame culture to develop, would you say, Henry? He's been there 21

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years. It's not as if he had developed someone else --

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inheritedsomeone else's players. You could see it in Lee Dickson's tweets

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yesterday. Everyone knows and they have seen it in previous reasons how

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Craig Dawson attacks corners. And no one was picking him up. It was

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embarrassing. When Dawson got his second, three West Brom players...

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It's very sad with Arsene Wenger but we are certainly moving into the

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endgame now. When you write, there was curiosity. Then there was

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admiration with the invincible team. Now he has been overtaken by other

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coaches who rotates more to keep their squad is fresh. Now the

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emotion is pity and that is the most worrying thing. You can see pity in

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supporters and former players who have always backed him, like Thierry

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Henry. When you have a distinguished manager being pitied, it's only a

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matter of time. It's all down to Stan Kroenke now do actually

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appreciate this is his club, he's got to take direction of it and put

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Wenger alt. His misery. If this is the end, I think it's a lamentable

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end for Wenger. I feel sad about it. There have been more successful

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managers, obviously, Sir Alex Ferguson had a greater impact on Man

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United than Wenger had at Arsenal, great though his impact has been.

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There's been more charismatic managers. But I think Wenger has

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been the most influential manager on English football, because he changed

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English football in a way that other more successful and perhaps more

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charismatic managers didn't. He started bringing in -year-old

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-- 15-year-old Spaniards and French players, so not always great for the

:06:52.:06:57.

English team. But he did have a big impact. And for it to end in this

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way, and it does appear in will end in a bad way with Arsenal failing to

:07:02.:07:05.

Cala vie for the top four, is really sad. When he inherited the back four

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at Arsenal, Martin Keown, Tony Adams, Lee Dickson, Nigel

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Winterburn, Steve Bould, their characters were their biggest

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strengths and they would sort out the marking. They would take control

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and responsible at the. I don't think they've got any of those kind

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of players now. Yesterday, you're playing against West Brom. You know

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Gareth McAuley, Craig Dawson, Jonny Evans score from corners. You know

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they're going to be coming in. You've got five players stood on the

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six yard box jumping off two feet with those players, six foot five,

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coming in and getting a running jump. You've got two players who are

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allocated to block those runs. And the players he put to block them

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were Aaron Ramsey blocking McAuley, mismatched... Oxlade-Chamberlain,

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mismatched against Jonny Evans. And I saw Sanchez there at one point as

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well. The wrong players marking the wrong type of defenders. Those

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little things make Arsenal easy to beat. Olivier Giroud should have

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started in a physical game like that, as much for his physical

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attacking qualities but also his defensive qualities. Does Arsene

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Wenger think that way? I think he just thinks we can beat you, they

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can beat everybody. But sometimes you just have to say, let's be hard

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to beat, lads, and we can win. He could have been talking about

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Arsenal, if you think you're going to turn up and not fight, you're

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going to lose. He could have been talking about Arsenal. Alan Shearer

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was asked about whether the players are currently playing for Arsene

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Wenger. There's been a lot of chat from the media and pundits about

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Arsene Wenger's future. There hasn't been a lot spoken about his players.

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His players spoke today during that game. Judging by that performance

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and recent performances, they don't want in in that job. Arsene Wenger

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would have looked at his players today and ask for a reaction. Said,

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come on guys, I've been criticised and hammered from pillar to post,

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give me something today. They lacked heart, they lacked fight, they

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lacked direction. Every player other than Sanchez I thought was pretty

:09:17.:09:23.

embarrassing. Christian says," Wenger is keeping quiet because the

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Manuel Pellegrini debacle, City were dreadful after that broke". Another

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said he is keeping it quiet to minimise the already high media

:09:33.:09:36.

attention. Another says if he is ready to clear out the dead wood and

:09:37.:09:40.

by world-class players, he should stay. If he is going to go, Steve

:09:41.:09:45.

Wilson, why can't he just come out and say yes, I'm going at the end of

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the season? History said that's not a good idea and you can go right

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back to Sir Alex Ferguson's first retirement announcement and also

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Manuel Pellegrini, when we knew he was leaving, performances did. I

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think that is human nature. Having said that, it does sound like

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Wenger's announcement is going to come before the end of the season,

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depending on what your definition of the word soon is. Arsene Wenger is

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right, remember Jack Nicklaus saying never play yourself, -- never blame

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yourself, baby equipment, the conditions... The players in that

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team are just looking after themselves. There is no one who

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sacrifices themselves to do a defensive job. They don't have any

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players like that in the team. There aren't many players like that around

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now, are there? Well, there are. It is recruitment. Why hasn't he signed

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a Patrick Vieira type character to organise the team for you? They

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haven't got anybody who was on the pitch at the manager's right arm

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saying, you do something here, 3-1 down against Bayern Munich with the

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risk of going 5-1 down and the fullbacks are still going forward.

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It Patrick Vieira were on the pitch, he would have said, you two stay

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back and let's lose 3-1. Up until yesterday the players looked to have

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got off a bit scot-free and that all the blame has been aimed at Arsene

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Wenger and all the anger aimed at him. If you flip it with the

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Leicester situation, the last few weeks under Ranieri all the blame

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was aimed at the players rather than the manager. I think there has been

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a fair of blame to the players. Granit Xhaka, ?29 million for a

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defensive midfield player who can't tackle and keeps getting suspended.

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It comes back to recruitment. Arsene Wenger is meticulous on recruitment,

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almost to the point of delaying and missing out on individual because he

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wants to check them over and over again. But he's just recruited

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badly. 15 years ago, Wenger would have been in and got those Monaco

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players we saw play so well the other night against Manchester City.

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Those are the sort of players Wenger would have got at source before

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people really knew about them. So he is taking his eye off the transfer

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market. ?42 million... Mesut Ozil, I would get him in the room and said

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we're playing Bayern Munich, I paid 40 Duminy amounts for you and I'm

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seriously considering leaving you out. How can that be possible? Can

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you do that in this day and age? I know the point you're trying to

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make... Ozil is all right with the ball but when you play against a

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team better than you and you got to dig in and say that get a result in

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Bayern Munich against their players who are as good as ours, can he do

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the other side? But Arsene Wenger doesn't like confrontation. The

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strong dressing rooms that you played in, there would be managers

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and players who would tell you if you weren't doing your job. That

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doesn't happen. But maybe there isn't the right mix of people around

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Arsene Wenger. But then he is responsible for that! Why is Patrick

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Vieira developing his career at Manchester City whereas Patrick

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Vieira's heart, obviously as a player, was at Arsenal. He wanted to

:13:14.:13:17.

stay in London, they could have developed him, but Arsene Wenger

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doesn't like challenge. Patrick Vieira had pride in his own

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performance. Patrick Vieira lined up before the game and said, you're not

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going to get the better of me today. There's not enough of them in the

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team. West Brom fans will be saying, there were two teams in the game

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yesterday and we actually won! Let us focus on them. The man who's got

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their second goal yesterday was Hal Robson-Kanu, 75 seconds after coming

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on. He joins us now. Good afternoon, thanks for joining us a

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hi guys, all right. Was it a complete performance? It was a good

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performance and I think in the end we deserved it. We outwork them and

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in the end we had better quality in key moments of the game. I know this

:14:09.:14:13.

is a bit odd when talking about Arsenal, but pre-match, did you feel

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they were there for the taking? Well, I think obviously everyone

:14:19.:14:21.

knows they have been going through a difficult patch. But we try and

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prepare for each game well so we can give our best and that is what we

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did on the day. You joined West Brom in the summer. Can you tell us what

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kind of club you found when you join and what Tony Pulis is like to work

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with and what qualities he brings out of you? Yeah, obviously I wanted

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to join a stable club and a club that was progressing. That's what I

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found. It's a small group in terms of numbers but everyone is together

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and everyone is working hard and fighting for the same cause. That is

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what the manager instils and we've been able to apply it going into

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games and that is why we've had the level of success we've had this

:15:10.:15:13.

season so far. How frustrating to be having to work in tiny little

:15:14.:15:18.

patches of games? You been getting 15, 20 minutes here and there.

:15:19.:15:22.

You're still working to get that starting place in Tony Pulis's team.

:15:23.:15:28.

I want to play games, every professional player wants to play

:15:29.:15:33.

games but it is about focusing on working hard in training. Showing

:15:34.:15:37.

the manager that I am ready and what I can bring to the team. I've done

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that. As you have seen, gradually I am playing more and more game time.

:15:44.:15:46.

And hopefully as the game 's progress, we will see a bit more of

:15:47.:15:52.

that, too. Everyone talks about West Brom's was great and the set pieces

:15:53.:15:55.

yesterday but there is creativity in that team which we saw at times

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yesterday. Do you get credit for that? To be honest, we don't pay too

:15:59.:16:04.

much attention, we just focus on our strengths. But we have good quality

:16:05.:16:10.

in the group throughout the pitch. In some games this season, we have

:16:11.:16:17.

shown that. Obviously, with one game it's not easy to win games at that

:16:18.:16:21.

level and you have to work hard. And you also need quality. Can you hold

:16:22.:16:25.

on one second because there is a game going on in the Premier League

:16:26.:16:29.

and there has been a goal at the Riverside, Ian Brown with the

:16:30.:16:33.

details. It had been coming and on the half-hour it is 1-0 to

:16:34.:16:38.

Manchester United. Set up by Ashley Young were playing as a left

:16:39.:16:42.

wing-back for United. It was a gorgeous cross delivered to the far

:16:43.:16:48.

post. Marouane Fellaini rising high do guided inside the near post for

:16:49.:16:51.

his first Premier League goal of the season. Hal Robson-Kanu is with us

:16:52.:16:58.

having scored the second against West Brom for Arsenal yesterday on

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Match of the Day 2 Extra. Dean wants to bring it back to Wales. Forget

:17:03.:17:09.

West Brom for a minute! Are you fit for next week? Yes, I am fully fit.

:17:10.:17:15.

Training is very intense that West Brom. Obviously, I am featuring in

:17:16.:17:19.

pretty much every game. That I have been there since. Training as well,

:17:20.:17:23.

the intensity has been good and I will be fighting fit. Has it been

:17:24.:17:27.

more intense than anywhere else you have been?

:17:28.:17:30.

It's their work ethic which the manager instils in the group and the

:17:31.:17:38.

players. It is paying dividends. What targets are you setting

:17:39.:17:40.

yourselves for the rest of the season, bearing in mind Tony Pulis

:17:41.:17:44.

always tells us about the 40 point mark and you are past that now, in

:17:45.:17:49.

private has he said your targets for the rest of the season? No targets

:17:50.:17:54.

have been said. But he said he doesn't want anyone to take their

:17:55.:17:58.

foot off the gas. He wants us to maintain that momentum. Now we at

:17:59.:18:03.

that 40 point mark, he once asked to work even harder and that is what we

:18:04.:18:06.

did yesterday and we can do it for the rest of the season. Thank you

:18:07.:18:11.

for coming on, enjoy your afternoon. Cheers, thank you. Hal Robson-Kanu

:18:12.:18:16.

on Match of the Day 2 Extra. I mean this as an economist to West Brom, I

:18:17.:18:20.

am not trying to get players out of that club elsewhere, but do you

:18:21.:18:22.

think there are several players at West Brom that other clubs could

:18:23.:18:27.

well have looked at to do a job for them? Of course. But they have been

:18:28.:18:34.

expertly coached by a manager who, year after year, his attention to

:18:35.:18:40.

detail is so impressive. I am a big fan of Tony Pulis. I really feel he

:18:41.:18:45.

Brondby doesn't get the credit he deserved. He doesn't, does he. -- he

:18:46.:18:51.

probably doesn't get. It was "Pulis out" at the top of this season and

:18:52.:18:54.

he's done it again. We talked about Arsenal and he is the opposite. He

:18:55.:18:59.

would have spent five days on them corners and getting West Brom in the

:19:00.:19:02.

right spot. Players running into the right spaces at the right time.

:19:03.:19:06.

That's the difference. Sam Allardyce is the same. The opposite. Crystal

:19:07.:19:10.

Palace won yesterday without having a shot on goal. Arsenal could do

:19:11.:19:14.

with a bit of that in the game. West Bromwich Albion at eight in the

:19:15.:19:17.

Premier League. I think I am right that if they finished eighth, it

:19:18.:19:21.

would be their highest top-flight finish since 1981. That is

:19:22.:19:25.

extraordinary. They aren't just a set piece team, they have some good

:19:26.:19:29.

footballers in this team. They have some of the best left foot in the

:19:30.:19:34.

league. Coming back to the defensive point, their teams above them, you

:19:35.:19:37.

old team, Liverpool, they could have done with Best at -- Ben Foster,

:19:38.:19:42.

they have been terrific. Look at the wage bill. Look at the facilities,

:19:43.:19:45.

pretty good if you go to the training ground. Tony Pulis does

:19:46.:19:50.

wonders. It was 1000 games early in the season. The nominal and he

:19:51.:19:54.

deserves respect. Lots of social media on Arsenal. He arrives late,

:19:55.:20:01.

he stays late, who would replace him? Steve says that he is there to

:20:02.:20:05.

appease the fans, he has no input in the team. Lack of defence. Trevor

:20:06.:20:10.

says, he needs to go, he offers nothing. Arsenal have conceded 16 in

:20:11.:20:15.

their last four, what is he doing? Get in contact with us. From Arsenal

:20:16.:20:21.

and West Brom to the leaders, 13 points clear at the top of the Gary

:20:22.:20:23.

Cahill's late winner at Stoke. You know you have to face a very

:20:24.:20:37.

strong team. For this reason, it was a physical game. You must be

:20:38.:20:45.

prepared to fight. During the game. I am pleased. I am very glad for my

:20:46.:20:50.

players because they showed me great commitment to always stay in the

:20:51.:20:55.

game with their heads. Now it's important to continue.

:20:56.:20:58.

You mentioned it in the Arsenal chat. They are sort of everything

:20:59.:21:06.

that Arsenal at. Yes, they are. I know this has been talked to death,

:21:07.:21:10.

but I was at the game they lost 3-0 to Arsenal. In September. The change

:21:11.:21:17.

in Chelsea happened with the formation change but it happened

:21:18.:21:21.

almost instantaneously. Which is extraordinary. They didn't seem to

:21:22.:21:25.

need any kind of preparation time. They went from looking like Chelsea

:21:26.:21:29.

of last season, pretty ordinary, with a lot of the kind of problems

:21:30.:21:33.

which Arsenal are experiencing this season, into runaway title winners.

:21:34.:21:39.

It has been a fantastic... You will have interviewed him, Steve. If you

:21:40.:21:44.

talk to him, he is utterly charming. But he has that cold stare in his

:21:45.:21:48.

eyes that you actually... It puts ice in your veins meeting him. From

:21:49.:21:53.

your perspective and a player's perspective, you will fear and

:21:54.:21:57.

respect him. Everyone sees the emotion on the touchline. There is a

:21:58.:22:02.

very calculated and intelligent Italian tactician. A very good man

:22:03.:22:06.

manager. Look at how he handled Diego Costa. Diego Costa, all the

:22:07.:22:10.

Chinese talk, one or two issues on the pitch, he's got him focused. He

:22:11.:22:16.

is channelling his aggression in the right way. He took a kicking

:22:17.:22:20.

yesterday, Costa. I thought yesterday, the first time in quite a

:22:21.:22:25.

long time that at times we saw a bit of the old Costa back, the

:22:26.:22:28.

frustration and getting annoyed. Which, often, this season, certainly

:22:29.:22:32.

in Chelsea games I've seen we haven't seen. But he's kept a lid on

:22:33.:22:35.

it this season. Look around this team. Coming back to the

:22:36.:22:40.

counterpoint to Arsenal, they are individuals and they are taking

:22:41.:22:46.

individual responsibility. Gary Cahill came up to score the winner

:22:47.:22:49.

after a mistake at the penalty. They are leaders. The game against West

:22:50.:22:51.

Ham, they were getting battered at Davit Luis stood up to the tried and

:22:52.:22:55.

Moses stood up. Responsibility takers -- and David Luis. I like

:22:56.:23:02.

watching him. He comes on the TV and talks like a tactical genius with a

:23:03.:23:07.

stare in his eyes. He stands on the side of the pitch as if he wants to

:23:08.:23:10.

have a fight with you and everybody around him. And he celebrates like

:23:11.:23:13.

it's his first game of football ever! And he is like one of the

:23:14.:23:17.

supporters. Must be brilliant to play for. When you speak to him you

:23:18.:23:22.

can't imagine him hanging from the roof of the dugout when they score

:23:23.:23:26.

but he does. Coming off the pitch, celebrating with the supporters.

:23:27.:23:31.

There is an example of a manager seeing what's wrong. The Arsenal

:23:32.:23:34.

game you were talking about, he was almost crying when he was

:23:35.:23:37.

interviewed after the game and they got beat 3-0. It -- you could see,

:23:38.:23:44.

I'm not playing like that any more. Kante and Matic in front and you

:23:45.:23:48.

three get on with it. It properly doesn't say anything to Hazard Pedro

:23:49.:23:52.

or Costa, just get on with it. Solid platform, good goalkeeper. He

:23:53.:23:56.

switched during the game. Ten minutes into the second half. In 35

:23:57.:24:00.

minutes he made the decision he had seen enough and that was the way

:24:01.:24:04.

ahead. He has used very few players this season. And he has stuck to the

:24:05.:24:10.

same group. Next season, when they have Champions League football, I

:24:11.:24:15.

think he is on record, they will have to bring in a good group this

:24:16.:24:20.

summer. And then he has a bigger squad to manage and it is how he

:24:21.:24:25.

does that. They have this thing at Chelsea, Cobham, do you cross the

:24:26.:24:28.

road? They have the Academy on one side, the first team on the other

:24:29.:24:31.

and it is almost a symbolic thing, when you cross the road. That means

:24:32.:24:34.

you are ready to go from the academy. Fantastic academy. You see

:24:35.:24:38.

it, the age groups, they have good players coming through. I am sure

:24:39.:24:41.

coming classic Chelsea fashion, they will go out and buy weather. Maybe

:24:42.:24:47.

another midfielder, maybe a defender. But I hope some of the

:24:48.:24:51.

kids they are developing, I know we says with every Chelsea manager, but

:24:52.:24:55.

Conte has indicated... He said he was 17 when he got a chance as a

:24:56.:25:00.

young player. I hope we see a Loftus-Cheek stepping up and playing

:25:01.:25:02.

more regularly in the first team. They have taken on Nathan Ake, back

:25:03.:25:06.

from Bournemouth. And not played him. Which is really frustrating. As

:25:07.:25:11.

Nathan Ake's development. It looks like Christiansen is coming back

:25:12.:25:18.

from Germany to bolster the three-man defence. Both sides. Get

:25:19.:25:20.

them from over the road and Europe. It makes you wonder if these

:25:21.:25:23.

academies will ever work. How do you get a game for man city as a young

:25:24.:25:28.

player? They go and buy somebody. They buy somebody for 40 million.

:25:29.:25:31.

That is the insecurity of modern management.

:25:32.:25:36.

You say insecurity of modern management but as a manager, you

:25:37.:25:40.

should have one eye on the future and one eye on the near future. Get

:25:41.:25:45.

results right now. But running the club properly, you should have one

:25:46.:25:48.

eye on what is coming in the next five years. But now managers are

:25:49.:25:52.

saying, I will not be here. Most managers might not even get to the

:25:53.:25:56.

near future let alone the future. They say, I will not waste any more

:25:57.:26:00.

of my time on the Academy, watching and 18 games and other 23 games

:26:01.:26:04.

because I will not be here. If you want to know how good Nathan Ake is,

:26:05.:26:08.

have a look at Bournemouth in the six weeks after he left. City have

:26:09.:26:12.

unliveable. You are doing this came later. What kind of City are you

:26:13.:26:19.

expecting -- city - Liverpool. Under pressure City. It does seem to defy

:26:20.:26:24.

all logic. But when you look at Pellegrini last year, we were

:26:25.:26:28.

talking about when the decision was made in February, it was announced

:26:29.:26:33.

the Guardiola was coming. City won a cup. Qualify for the Champions

:26:34.:26:36.

League. Semifinalists in the Champions League. It is possible but

:26:37.:26:42.

what you might fall short of all three of those achievements if you

:26:43.:26:45.

call them achievements. They were not enough to keep Pellegrini in a

:26:46.:26:49.

job. The club has been fashionable Guardiola over a number of years. He

:26:50.:26:53.

was supposed to be the last piece in the jigsaw. Here they are, in a

:26:54.:26:58.

mess, potentially. They have Liverpool, the international break,

:26:59.:27:03.

two huge games, Arsenal and Chelsea, coming up after that with the

:27:04.:27:08.

Manchester derby to be rearranged. These are all games that City might

:27:09.:27:12.

lose. He's managed in different countries. I've played in different

:27:13.:27:18.

countries. And for big clubs. Sometimes, before you even get the

:27:19.:27:22.

game, the opposition have given up. Doesn't happen in the Premier

:27:23.:27:25.

League. The bottom team in the Premier League can beat you at any

:27:26.:27:28.

point if you are not right. They are trying to play up from the back.

:27:29.:27:32.

They are still building. Trying to play out on the back. Managers work

:27:33.:27:37.

it out. Started pressing them. I partly take that point but when

:27:38.:27:40.

Manchester City went to the bottom team in the League 2 or three weeks

:27:41.:27:44.

ago, Sunderland never looks they could beat Manchester City in all

:27:45.:27:48.

seriousness. They don't. They should beat them. They are not surprise

:27:49.:27:52.

results when teams turn Man City over. Especially playing Kolarov at

:27:53.:27:59.

centre-half and use spread the whip of the pitch playing Total Football

:28:00.:28:02.

and body run down the side of him -- the width of the pitch. Not

:28:03.:28:07.

surprising when Vardy get in on goal. Chelsea don't do that. They

:28:08.:28:10.

are tied. They are players in spaces. They don't leave themselves

:28:11.:28:16.

exposed. Arsenal and man city are doing it. Ambushes all over the

:28:17.:28:19.

Premier League means it is more competitive. It provides relentless

:28:20.:28:23.

excitement. The flip side is that you have to give good managers time.

:28:24.:28:29.

Take a player like Lallana. How much Adam Lallana improved? It was always

:28:30.:28:34.

a 70 minute player. Not like weight of not running games. How much has

:28:35.:28:40.

he improved under Jurgen Klopp? Give managers time and they will improve.

:28:41.:28:46.

Look at Raheem Sterling. He has improved no end because of

:28:47.:28:48.

Guardiola. It will take time. We have to be a bit more patient with

:28:49.:28:55.

good managers. Both these managers... Not just looking at

:28:56.:28:59.

today but looking ahead to the summer and next season, do both

:29:00.:29:02.

these managers, and maybe it will happen more at City at Liverpool,

:29:03.:29:06.

who knows, do they need to be back significantly by their boards and

:29:07.:29:10.

owners in the summer transfer window? Because arguably, City could

:29:11.:29:13.

do with at least two new full-backs and another centre-half. Liverpool,

:29:14.:29:19.

at times, this season are having to play Lucas at centre-half and

:29:20.:29:22.

although Miller has had a good season at left-back, is that what it

:29:23.:29:26.

boils down to? I think I am right in saying that one of the papers, it

:29:27.:29:30.

might have been yours, Henry, did a list of the most expensive centre

:29:31.:29:35.

halves in the world ever. They just bought John Stones. I think I am

:29:36.:29:39.

right in saying that quadrant of the right most expensive centre halves

:29:40.:29:42.

belong to Manchester City -- watcher of the most expensive. Possibly

:29:43.:29:48.

four. -- four of the most expensive. They are still playing Kolarov.

:29:49.:29:51.

Still hoping that Kompany will be fit. That is not necessarily

:29:52.:29:55.

Guardiola's fault he has. A lot of dead he needs to get rid of. -- he

:29:56.:30:03.

has a lot. -- a lot of deadwood. The recruitment has been poor. He will

:30:04.:30:07.

address that. Over a number of years it has been poor. Sensational, the

:30:08.:30:12.

front five. He wants to play out from the full-backs. It is Kiki is

:30:13.:30:17.

allowed. All of those full-backs are over 30. -- it is key that he is

:30:18.:30:21.

allowed. It used to be that you had to defend first. Now they are

:30:22.:30:24.

teaching, I think, young players how to play out from the back and they

:30:25.:30:29.

have lost that bit of determination, defend first.

:30:30.:30:32.

We want our English centre backs to be able to play like foreign centre

:30:33.:30:41.

backs can, but it's gone too far. They've forgotten about the

:30:42.:30:50.

findings. -- this forgotten about defending. When John Stones is in a

:30:51.:30:55.

race against Falcao, you can't get beat one against one there. The

:30:56.:31:00.

football comes second. At the moment we've got to be careful where not

:31:01.:31:06.

going to far the opposite way. Playing it out of the back, where

:31:07.:31:14.

would you play Emre Can? I think he is, well, he's obviously a central

:31:15.:31:17.

midfielder but with a defensively minded older player next to him.

:31:18.:31:21.

Everyone looks at Emre Can and thinks he's 28 or 29 because he's

:31:22.:31:26.

quite physically imposing. He looks like he's in his late 20s. I think

:31:27.:31:31.

he's actually just 22. This is a kid who is highly admired in Germany,

:31:32.:31:36.

who was developing -- is developing under Jurgen Klopp. I think he needs

:31:37.:31:41.

to be more consistent. He is a kid playing a difficult role. He spent a

:31:42.:31:45.

lot of his German international career playing as a full-back,

:31:46.:31:49.

actually. I like him, I think he's a good player. But I'm not sure that

:31:50.:31:53.

Liverpool have an outstanding central midfielder. They have quite

:31:54.:31:56.

a few good central midfielders. They are basically short of players.

:31:57.:32:00.

Everyone likes Jurgen Klopp because everyone can see what he's trying to

:32:01.:32:04.

do. They're going in the right direction. They would go second in

:32:05.:32:07.

the league today if they win. He put a bench out the other day, Stuart,

:32:08.:32:19.

Ben Woodburn, Divock Origi, Klaven, Alexander - Arnold. And Man United

:32:20.:32:26.

put a bench out worth ?250 million. Until he can put out a bench as good

:32:27.:32:30.

as that, he's not going to win the league. He needs some help from the

:32:31.:32:34.

board. Robert Lee part of the thing of Liverpool moving out of Melwood

:32:35.:32:41.

and moving the first team into the Huyton Academy area is that they're

:32:42.:32:45.

going to try and get more through from the academy. Liverpool can't

:32:46.:32:48.

compete with Man United and Man City financially at the moment, it's just

:32:49.:32:52.

not going to happen. That is the late afternoon game. The middle

:32:53.:32:57.

game, there are three, 1-0 at the Riverside at half-time at the

:32:58.:32:59.

moment, but we've got Spurs against Southampton which you can hear on

:33:00.:33:03.

five live later. I suppose the big question for Spurs is how they cope

:33:04.:33:07.

without Harry Kane for however long it is going to be? Well, on the

:33:08.:33:12.

evidence of the goal-scorers outside of that team, clearly Harry Kane,

:33:13.:33:18.

quite rightly, gets an enormous amount of praise for his

:33:19.:33:20.

goal-scoring but you look at the other people and song young men as

:33:21.:33:25.

13 goals, Christian Eriksen has nine, Dele Alli has 15 or 16 goals.

:33:26.:33:31.

I think Vincent Janssen is still going to find himself on the bench,

:33:32.:33:35.

however long Harry Kane is out for. They have goals in the team. If it

:33:36.:33:41.

is a five or six week injury, for Harry Kane, then I think they can

:33:42.:33:47.

probably get through it. I was at the match against Millwall when

:33:48.:33:51.

Harry Kane went off early on and Vincent Janssen almost just sort of

:33:52.:33:58.

rows out of his seat and then Son got the nod. A classic centre

:33:59.:34:01.

forward who actually did very well against England at Wembley. But

:34:02.:34:05.

Pochettino obviously doesn't trust him as the number-1 understudy for

:34:06.:34:10.

Harry Kane. But then he did come on and he did break that duck and

:34:11.:34:15.

finally score from open play. So I hope he gets a chance because

:34:16.:34:19.

everyone you talk to at Spurs says he's a lad and works hard. Just one

:34:20.:34:27.

thing on Southampton, being in thing as well with James Ward-Prowse and

:34:28.:34:31.

they showed the clip of when he was 13 and he stood at Southampton's

:34:32.:34:34.

training ground and said my first ambition is to play for Southampton

:34:35.:34:38.

but my long-term future is to play for England. Then they got him back

:34:39.:34:42.

there on his England call-up. It's interesting because he has been

:34:43.:34:47.

highly admired. We can seek him on set pieces. He's got to start

:34:48.:34:50.

showing that he can run games. There's definitely a captain in

:34:51.:34:54.

their but he looks like he will be more moulded in the under 21 team.

:34:55.:35:02.

Let's go to Middlesbrough first at half-time, Ian Brown. Middlesbrough

:35:03.:35:05.

0- one Manchester United. Middlesbrough certainly more

:35:06.:35:07.

progressive and playing higher up the page under Steve Agnew but

:35:08.:35:11.

falling behind on the half-hour. Marvellous cross from Ashley Young

:35:12.:35:16.

headed in by Marouane Fellaini at the far post. Marcus Rashford has

:35:17.:35:19.

troubled Middlesbrough with his pace but his finishing as the North will

:35:20.:35:23.

stop Middlesbrough's best effort came from Gaston Ramirez, saved by

:35:24.:35:30.

David de Gea. Dundee against Celtic. This could have been a tidal

:35:31.:35:37.

celebration but Aberdeen inconveniently beat Hearts yesterday

:35:38.:35:40.

for Celtic, so it has been postponed for now. For the moment and even

:35:41.:35:46.

game but Stuart Armstrong showing why he is in the Scotland squad,

:35:47.:35:50.

with a dipping free kick that only just skimmed the crossbar. 0-0.

:35:51.:35:55.

Let's talk about Romelu Lukaku. Everton beat Hull 4-0 yesterday,

:35:56.:35:59.

maybe a slightly flattering scoreline for Ronald Koeman's died

:36:00.:36:05.

after Hull were reduced to ten men, Tom Huddlestone being sent off. Lots

:36:06.:36:08.

of discussion about whether Lukaku will stay or go. Mino Raiola, his

:36:09.:36:13.

agent, had said earlier in the week he was 99.9% certain to stay and

:36:14.:36:16.

then there was an interview with Lukaku when he said he was uncertain

:36:17.:36:20.

about his future at Everton. Let's hear from Leon Osman, former Everton

:36:21.:36:28.

midfielder. I know Rom, I played with him. I always try and find the

:36:29.:36:33.

positive in it and try and think of exactly what he's done, but

:36:34.:36:36.

regardless of any of that, his thoughts there should have been done

:36:37.:36:41.

in-house. If he felt like that, he should have been going to speak to

:36:42.:36:44.

the manager about it and expressing his concerns and doing it that way.

:36:45.:36:48.

By coming out into the press and doing it publicly, it's not a good

:36:49.:36:53.

message for the club, it makes it sound like things aren't quite going

:36:54.:36:58.

right. It makes him feel like he's looking for a move away as well.

:36:59.:37:03.

He's trying to stir the pot and look that way. That's the way it seems. I

:37:04.:37:08.

know you're a former Liverpool striker but if Romelu Lukaku were

:37:09.:37:10.

going to ask you for advice about what he should do, what would you

:37:11.:37:14.

say to him? Keep your mouth shut! Number-1. All he's done is wind his

:37:15.:37:21.

team-mates up, because all his team-mates will be thinking, who do

:37:22.:37:24.

you think you are? We keep putting the ball through for you. I know

:37:25.:37:28.

you're a good finisher but we keep supplying you with the ammunition.

:37:29.:37:31.

All the supporters will be thinking, it's like getting divorced, for

:37:32.:37:35.

Everton fans. He's their best player and he's come out and said he wants

:37:36.:37:40.

to leave. They take that the heart. The manager is now under pressure

:37:41.:37:43.

because he has got to answer questions about it. If he wants to

:37:44.:37:47.

leave, just keep it to yourself and tell your agent to get on with it

:37:48.:37:51.

and concentrate on your football. At I don't understand, now is not the

:37:52.:37:55.

time to leave Everton. They are on the rise and they could catch

:37:56.:38:00.

Arsenal. They've got a good manager. 50 grand a week, Henry. Well, I

:38:01.:38:04.

understand it... It's interesting, you talk to people about Lukaku. He

:38:05.:38:08.

is not driven solely by money. His agent might be. But he is thinking

:38:09.:38:12.

about playing in the Champions League and I can understand that

:38:13.:38:17.

from eight career perspective. They've got a wealthy person who has

:38:18.:38:20.

come into the club, the new owner. You look at the players they have

:38:21.:38:25.

wrought in, young and vibrant. They are actually creating chances for

:38:26.:38:28.

him and at some point they're going to have a new stadium. It seems a

:38:29.:38:34.

strange time to leave. You were there yesterday. I was there

:38:35.:38:38.

yesterday and in fact the reaction to Lukaku from the fans I thought

:38:39.:38:41.

was impressive, there was no negativity at all and obviously he

:38:42.:38:46.

scored his two late goals and was a lot of love going on. But the future

:38:47.:38:49.

of Everton has never been brighter, or not for a very long time. Not

:38:50.:38:54.

only because of the new money which has come into the club which is very

:38:55.:38:57.

important, but also because of the young players they have at the club.

:38:58.:39:00.

Tom Davies is an exceptional prospect. Dominic Calvert-Lewin

:39:01.:39:07.

scored yesterday. The one I think is, I've only seen him play for

:39:08.:39:10.

about an hour and I think it was against Bournemouth and he was in

:39:11.:39:14.

station, was adamant look on. That weekend Gabriel Jesus made his

:39:15.:39:20.

Manchester City debut and I didn't watch his debut live, but I watched

:39:21.:39:29.

Lookman. Of the two on that day, Lookman looked the better player!

:39:30.:39:33.

There is an example of why he's done the wrong thing because I've just

:39:34.:39:37.

spent 30 seconds talking about him upsetting the fans and team-mates

:39:38.:39:40.

and his manager when I should have spent 30 seconds saying how well

:39:41.:39:44.

he's playing and how good his finishing has been. Because he is

:39:45.:39:47.

playing out of his skin and he looks unstoppable, both feet, calm when he

:39:48.:39:52.

finishes, brilliant. I think it's nine in six that he's scored now and

:39:53.:39:56.

23 for the season, something like that. He's done it 34 years running,

:39:57.:40:02.

scoring 20 plus. You don't have to say anything. If you're a striker, I

:40:03.:40:05.

played in his position, if you're scoring goals, people come to you.

:40:06.:40:10.

You just sit there and keep scoring and somebody knocks on your door.

:40:11.:40:13.

And then you don't go around upsetting everyone. And often that

:40:14.:40:20.

with Romelu Lukaku seems, we often find negatives when talking about

:40:21.:40:24.

Romelu Lukaku, I don't mean us specifically but the media in

:40:25.:40:27.

general, I can't think of a player where people talk more about what he

:40:28.:40:31.

can't do rather than what he can do. I think there's a lot of celebration

:40:32.:40:34.

of what he can do. We see it every time he picks the ball up. You've

:40:35.:40:39.

only got a look at the goal-scoring stats, the consistency, the minutes

:40:40.:40:42.

on the pitch. This whole thing about, as he upset the players? He's

:40:43.:40:46.

a pretty popular as an around Finch farm and Goodison Park as well. He's

:40:47.:40:53.

a very likeable individual and a lot of the interviews this week were on

:40:54.:41:03.

the back of Kick It Out events. He does great work for them and Everton

:41:04.:41:06.

do fantastic work in the community and he is a big part of that. He's a

:41:07.:41:12.

fantastic individual. But if I'd heard what he said, I would say,

:41:13.:41:18.

what are you doing? It's not his place. There's people who run the

:41:19.:41:22.

club, you're just a player. There's people above you and above the

:41:23.:41:25.

manager who decide what money we spend and who we get in. You can go

:41:26.:41:29.

in the dressing room and open the door and say the manager, what are

:41:30.:41:35.

we doing next year? Are we going to sign some good players and try and

:41:36.:41:38.

win the league? You wanted to say that but you don't want him to come

:41:39.:41:44.

out publicly. He did not -- it did not feel at Goodison yesterday as

:41:45.:41:46.

though there was any change in the relationship between the and

:41:47.:41:51.

supporters and the player or his team-mates and the player. I would

:41:52.:41:55.

love him to stay at Everton, I would love him to stay at Everton. Your

:41:56.:41:58.

team are playing great by the way, at the minute. Fantastic football.

:41:59.:42:05.

At home, unbelievable. Unbelievable at home at the moment. You think

:42:06.:42:10.

they will go the rest of the season unbeaten West to mark at home. They

:42:11.:42:16.

could win all their remaining home games, even Chelsea at home. The one

:42:17.:42:22.

game they conceded, against Bournemouth, they scored six.

:42:23.:42:26.

They've scored 22 goals in those six games and let in three. At home,

:42:27.:42:32.

they are about as tough as it gets. Do you think he would get a better

:42:33.:42:37.

platform for his own skills anywhere else? If Diego Costa stays at

:42:38.:42:40.

Chelsea and they play the same system and he goes to Chelsea, he is

:42:41.:42:45.

just setting into the -- stepping into the shoes of Michy Batshuayi,

:42:46.:42:48.

which at the moment doesn't look like a good place to be. Given the

:42:49.:42:53.

length remaining on the contracts, they have also got Ross Barkley to

:42:54.:42:56.

deal with at Everton. He is having a terrific season. That comes back to

:42:57.:43:00.

great man management by Ronald Koeman. Human challenged Ross

:43:01.:43:05.

Barkley and said, you've got so much skill, go and deliver it on a more

:43:06.:43:11.

consistent basis. Berkeley is back in being the squad now, a good

:43:12.:43:15.

reflection on Combe and's qualities. Crazy time to leave Everton. But

:43:16.:43:19.

people are also talking about Ronald Koeman being attracted away. We're

:43:20.:43:22.

not absolutely certain he is going to be the Everton manager at the end

:43:23.:43:27.

of the season. That could be a factor. Combe and's career would

:43:28.:43:30.

suggest he is the kind of manager who always has half an eye on the

:43:31.:43:34.

next move. But despite all that, it was very positive at Goodison! I

:43:35.:43:39.

enjoyed it and they are playing exceptionally well. Thank you very

:43:40.:43:43.

much Steve and Henry and Dean. Steve dominating on Manchester City

:43:44.:43:47.

Liverpool later when we will also show Spurs and Southampton and

:43:48.:43:56.

Middlesbrough and Man United. Two commentaries on Five Live later this

:43:57.:43:58.

afternoon. We will see you He believes himself to be

:43:59.:44:18.

your equal.

:44:19.:44:21.

Mark Chapman and guests discuss the talking points from Saturday's matches and preview Sunday's three Premier League fixtures, including Manchester City's clash with top-four rivals Liverpool.