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John Inverdale looks ahead to the 2017 Six Nations Championship.


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A great leader inspires people around them. Five out of five. It is

:00:25.:01:03.

England's grand slam. Get your own job right, first. O'Driscoll!

:01:04.:01:11.

Captain fantastic, what a start for Italy. Keep your head up, stand

:01:12.:01:16.

tall. Protocol has been ripped up. Show you are in control, even when

:01:17.:01:20.

you're not. Wales are streaking away. The captain's done it again.

:01:21.:01:29.

Would you believe it? Leadership can be lonely. Don't pretend to know it

:01:30.:01:37.

all. Trust your team-mates. That is going to be the try of the

:01:38.:01:39.

championship. A great victory. It's hard to earn respect and so

:01:40.:01:45.

easy to lose it. They are looking bang up for this,

:01:46.:02:00.

the Irish. Walk the talk. Be selfless, not a selfish. There is

:02:01.:02:02.

the happiest man in Scotland. At the start of another

:02:03.:02:24.

international rugby year, New Zealand remain, even without their

:02:25.:02:26.

greatest leader Richie McCaw, the dominant force in the world game.

:02:27.:02:30.

Welcome to, without a shadow of a doubt, the greatest annual rugby

:02:31.:02:33.

competition in the world, the RBS Six Nations which kicks off here in

:02:34.:02:38.

Edinburgh with Scotland against Ireland. A at Murrayfield fields to

:02:39.:02:41.

a caustic Celtic collision. They have been playing rugby at

:02:42.:02:50.

Murrayfield since 1925, served by trains and trams these days and in

:02:51.:02:56.

1975 a record 105,000 people were here to see Scotland play Wales.

:02:57.:03:01.

That's a match that you can see on the BBC in three weeks' time. These

:03:02.:03:05.

days much more manageable, 68,000, thereabouts, will be here this

:03:06.:03:09.

afternoon for Scotland against Ireland. It is safe to say amongst

:03:10.:03:12.

the best seats in the house we are lucky to say they are occupied by

:03:13.:03:17.

us. Here we are in the far corner of the ground. Good afternoon and

:03:18.:03:21.

welcome, wherever you may be, pubs, clubs, this country, broad,

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wherever. We look forward to what will be an epic few weeks ahead.

:03:26.:03:30.

Pace yourself, it's a long afternoon and championship ahead. We will

:03:31.:03:34.

enjoy the company of, amongst others, Jeremy Guscott, Keith Wood,

:03:35.:03:39.

Chris Paterson and Paul O'Connell. Who has just taken his hat off. We

:03:40.:03:45.

had a funny joke about the Irish always wearing hats and that's been

:03:46.:03:48.

blown out of the water in the first minute! As the man who has most

:03:49.:03:53.

recently been party to this on the field of play, what's it like to be

:03:54.:03:57.

involved in the Six Nations an owl and ten minutes from kick off? Very

:03:58.:04:01.

exciting. A different sense of occasions to the autumn

:04:02.:04:04.

internationals to the Sun International. -- and hour and ten.

:04:05.:04:09.

With an hour to go, the players are probably on princess street, that is

:04:10.:04:13.

where the Irish team stay. The young guys have their headphones on, the

:04:14.:04:17.

old guys are stretching. About 1000 fans outside the door of the hotel

:04:18.:04:20.

waiting for you to get on the bus and once you on the bus and you go

:04:21.:04:24.

through the crowd, it's a great feeling. Really nervous feeling. You

:04:25.:04:28.

know what's coming, you get ready for battle. It really exciting time

:04:29.:04:31.

in any player's career. When you talk to people in the street, they

:04:32.:04:36.

say it's amazing how this tournament seems to get bigger and bigger every

:04:37.:04:40.

year, do you sense that as well? I do. Everyday I think, cannot get any

:04:41.:04:47.

better, bigger and stronger? Every year I think can it get. Expectation

:04:48.:04:52.

is the greatest, biggest... Area I can look at. We are all chatting to

:04:53.:04:58.

friends. What they are thinking about, each team, how it's going to

:04:59.:05:02.

go. Up to the last minute, they can change their mind. It's brilliant, I

:05:03.:05:07.

love it all. A Scottish perspective? There is a palpable sense, not just

:05:08.:05:12.

optimism that a real expectation. We haven't had that in the past. There

:05:13.:05:16.

is optimism every time Scotland take the field, especially at the start

:05:17.:05:20.

of the championship but after a good autumn some fantastic players

:05:21.:05:25.

playing critically well for clubs in the domestic leagues it is looking

:05:26.:05:28.

pretty good. It'll be a tough test. What is the major change to the

:05:29.:05:33.

format of the Six Nations? Bonus points. It will only be influential

:05:34.:05:37.

if actually it comes to pass where the matches are seven points

:05:38.:05:39.

differential is or people start scoring tries. The key element is

:05:40.:05:44.

the winner going fast and this happens afterwards as a consequence.

:05:45.:05:50.

-- going first. If you're not a seasoned rugby observer and do not

:05:51.:05:53.

know the bonus point system, watcher points for a win, not two. One extra

:05:54.:06:00.

points -- four points for a win. When you lose, you get one bonus

:06:01.:06:04.

point if you score four tries, irrespective of what the score is.

:06:05.:06:08.

If it is 78-20 but you have scored four tries, you get a bonus point.

:06:09.:06:12.

One bonus point for losing by fewer than seven irrespective of the

:06:13.:06:16.

school. In terms of the number of points -- the score. One bonus point

:06:17.:06:22.

for scoring four tries and three points for a grand slam. Do you

:06:23.:06:25.

think that will have a material impact on who actually wins, March

:06:26.:06:29.

18? In the history it could have done but I don't think it was

:06:30.:06:32.

necessary. Six Nations Came out yesterday and they said it was

:06:33.:06:36.

inherently unfair and may last for one season and then we'll be gone.

:06:37.:06:39.

They are under pressure to do something to change it up

:06:40.:06:43.

unnecessarily. In many respects, you kind of like the friction that

:06:44.:06:47.

happens at the very end, not guessing... I never liked the idea

:06:48.:06:52.

of a losing bonus point. The idea that if we do really well in the

:06:53.:06:55.

last five minutes, we may lose by less than seven and that seems like

:06:56.:06:59.

a good thing. That's a vote against, in favour or against? I'm against

:07:00.:07:06.

it. I like it. I think for the championship point it will make a

:07:07.:07:09.

big difference but I'm not sure it will have a bearing on the opening

:07:10.:07:12.

weekend. I thought it would be more that the last couple of games but

:07:13.:07:16.

Eddie Jones said his team will be absolutely daring and Vern Cotter

:07:17.:07:20.

said he had options in attack which allows them to continually attack

:07:21.:07:26.

the opposition. I am not sure. Where are you? I enjoy it. I enjoyed

:07:27.:07:32.

European cup the last two week, the permutations and calculations, I

:07:33.:07:34.

enjoyed that when I was a player. I am for it. We will find out over the

:07:35.:07:40.

next five weekend 's, the next seven weeks. We ought to mention world

:07:41.:07:44.

rankings. This is the last batch of matches where teams can influence

:07:45.:07:48.

their position in terms of the draw for the next World Cup. The key

:07:49.:07:50.

thing, you want to finish in the top That is supposedly gives you an

:07:51.:07:56.

easier draw when it comes to the World Cup in Japan. The teams have

:07:57.:08:02.

gotten better, top ten, 12 have been really strong. When you get in at

:08:03.:08:07.

number eight, you still don't get the best draw. Ireland want to make

:08:08.:08:10.

sure they are in the top four, they don't want to allow themselves to

:08:11.:08:14.

drop out of that. But it can play a huge bearing. We've seen big matches

:08:15.:08:18.

in World Cup that had been set up two of three years beforehand and

:08:19.:08:22.

that is the instance. They want to win the match but they will have

:08:23.:08:28.

that in the back of the next hour and ten minutes before kick off at

:08:29.:08:32.

Murrayfield. We will hear from some of the most influential figures in

:08:33.:08:33.

the game. These days, none more important than

:08:34.:08:42.

the referee. Wayne Barnes talks high tackles and law changes.

:08:43.:08:46.

Richie McCaw offers an All Black perspective on the Six Nations and

:08:47.:08:51.

the Lions as Warren Gatland having forsaken Wales looks for the players

:08:52.:08:54.

who can win in New Zealand this summer.

:08:55.:08:58.

And talking of challenges, Connor O'Shea is the new man in charge of

:08:59.:09:08.

Italy. Optimism with realism is his philosophy. And we had players like

:09:09.:09:11.

Conor Murray, the Irish scrum-half will surely be heading off with the

:09:12.:09:16.

Lions next summer barring injury. Hours will Scottish full-back Stuart

:09:17.:09:20.

Hogg. Before that, the men in blue and green and the men in white,

:09:21.:09:24.

there's a Six Nations to be won. England are favourites, 13 matches

:09:25.:09:28.

in 2016 and 13 wins under currently every Englishman's favourite

:09:29.:09:32.

Australian, Eddie Jones. We went to Portugal to meet him.

:09:33.:09:46.

The Six Nations was unfamiliar to you a year ago, did it surprise you,

:09:47.:09:54.

in a way, that caught you off-guard? I remember someone saying everyone

:09:55.:09:57.

hates England and they are right, everyone does hate England. But, you

:09:58.:10:05.

know, in a good sense. There is such traditional rivalry between England,

:10:06.:10:09.

Ireland, Scotland, Wales. And then you've got the two European

:10:10.:10:15.

countries. Italy and France. Which provide a different challenge. But I

:10:16.:10:18.

thought the rugby in the first couple of rounds was pretty

:10:19.:10:20.

ordinary. It improved towards the last three rounds. One of our major

:10:21.:10:25.

goals is to hit the Road running this year. To play really well in

:10:26.:10:30.

the first game. With the injuries England have got, perversely, as a

:10:31.:10:32.

coach, does that give you the opportunity to learn more about your

:10:33.:10:37.

skills in adapting, so you can keep England moving forward in the right

:10:38.:10:41.

direction? We are missing two of our biggest ball-carriers, one of our

:10:42.:10:44.

highest were great players. We've got to put together now, a pack that

:10:45.:10:49.

won't have those stand-up ball-carriers. We need to do players

:10:50.:10:53.

to do a bit more. Our ability to get those art of players is crucial. Had

:10:54.:10:57.

you got anything wrong in the last 12 months that you would admit to?

:10:58.:11:00.

-- get those out of place. Selection wrong, if you play as well. In every

:11:01.:11:07.

test you waste on a player is vital. When you go to the World Cup in

:11:08.:11:11.

2019, everyone knows you need as many experienced players as you can,

:11:12.:11:14.

every cap counts. That's why you need somewhere between 600 at 800

:11:15.:11:20.

caps. When I play players in tests that won't make the World Cup, I

:11:21.:11:22.

feel like I've made a mistake. It is England's grand slam. We've

:11:23.:11:32.

set the bar high in your first year in charge. How on earth do you

:11:33.:11:37.

follow that? -- you set. It's nice to be unbeaten but we didn't play

:11:38.:11:43.

well in that many games. We got some victories, particularly in Australia

:11:44.:11:48.

but we didn't play well. For me, obviously, we'd like to go through

:11:49.:11:52.

undefeated this season but I would want us to play somebody go rugby.

:11:53.:11:55.

It starts with France in the first game of the Six Nations. What about

:11:56.:12:01.

developing leaders in this team as a target? For this next 12 months?

:12:02.:12:06.

Well, to get better, there's a couple of things we want to do. One

:12:07.:12:10.

is to increase the depth of the squad, generally. Two, improve the

:12:11.:12:13.

fundamental skills of the players, so that... I think the game is

:12:14.:12:19.

becoming so chaotic, but your ability to adapt is so important.

:12:20.:12:23.

Therefore, the ability to be skilful is so important. Also, a line with

:12:24.:12:27.

that. Because the game is becoming more chaotic, you need to have a

:12:28.:12:31.

greater number of leaders in your team. You go back to the 2003

:12:32.:12:36.

England team. They had eight or nine guys that you knew, every time they

:12:37.:12:39.

played a game of rugby, they were going to give everything they had.

:12:40.:12:43.

They were going to make sure people around them gave everything they

:12:44.:12:47.

had. They were strong leaders. We don't have that now. Which is not a

:12:48.:12:51.

criticism of our squad. But it's a place we need to go. What do you see

:12:52.:12:55.

in Dylan Hartley as a leader that some people might not?

:12:56.:12:59.

What I like about Dylan is that he is prepared to tell people what to

:13:00.:13:07.

do. If the team is not doing what we require of them, he's quite happy to

:13:08.:13:10.

take a team meeting and tell the players. It doesn't matter whether

:13:11.:13:14.

they are all the players or much younger players he tells them.

:13:15.:13:21.

That's quite a unique ability -- they are older players or younger

:13:22.:13:27.

players. Do you feel a bit English, now? After a year in charge? I

:13:28.:13:32.

certainly love the team. I really love the players. I love working

:13:33.:13:36.

with them. I'll always be in Australian. But I love coaching

:13:37.:13:41.

England. What's the best bits that drives you to get up at 6am every

:13:42.:13:46.

morning, as I know you do? We have a chance to do something to do

:13:47.:13:51.

something different here. We have the chance to be one of the greatest

:13:52.:13:55.

England sides, play a different brand of rugby that hasn't been seen

:13:56.:13:59.

before. Particularly, New Zealand have been dominant for the last

:14:00.:14:02.

five, six, eight years. Everyone's tried to copy the way they've played

:14:03.:14:06.

but we want to play our own style of rugby to show you cant beat New

:14:07.:14:15.

Zealand. -- you can beat New Zealand. Only eight coaches have won

:14:16.:14:19.

the Rugby World Cup. How much are you consumed by joining that list?

:14:20.:14:24.

You would love to do it. As a player, you want to win the biggest

:14:25.:14:28.

trophy. As a coach you want to win the biggest trophy. But the

:14:29.:14:32.

consequence of coaching well. And putting a good team together. If we

:14:33.:14:37.

keep developing and keep improving, keep improving the leadership

:14:38.:14:40.

density of our team, we will be in a position to win the World Cup.

:14:41.:14:46.

Eddie Jones. That was recorded. Dummett before the curious incident

:14:47.:14:56.

of the eye in the bathroom. Is this proof positive of the influence

:14:57.:15:00.

coach can have on players? Coaches are integral to the success of a

:15:01.:15:03.

team. Each have their own individual and unique style. Sir Clive Woodward

:15:04.:15:10.

was very much a manager in the style of Rod Macqueen who was there for

:15:11.:15:13.

Australia, very much business management attitude and looked

:15:14.:15:18.

towards it, strategic and tactical command he got the good coaches in

:15:19.:15:21.

to implement his ideas and thoughts on the training paddock and it

:15:22.:15:25.

worked and was successful. You can use facts and figures to prove

:15:26.:15:28.

anything, if we look at the percentage records of the coaches

:15:29.:15:31.

involved in the Six Nations over the course of the next weeks it is

:15:32.:15:34.

surprising that Joe Schmidt's win record is only 67%. That is two

:15:35.:15:44.

thirds. You played under so many great coaches and perhaps one or two

:15:45.:15:49.

you may have reservations about. What are the things you think to

:15:50.:15:53.

find a good coach? The elements come from being the right coach at the

:15:54.:15:56.

right time with the right team and sometimes happens too early and

:15:57.:16:01.

sometimes to light. I had Brian Ashton as a technical coach and

:16:02.:16:07.

skills coach who was incredible but came at a time when it didn't seem

:16:08.:16:12.

to fit the bill for Ireland and we had Warren Gatland in 98, the right

:16:13.:16:16.

guy at the right time to do the job Ireland needed, consistency of

:16:17.:16:22.

selection. The right coach is the guy who understands what he needs

:16:23.:16:26.

for that team at that time. What Eddie Jones has done is given the

:16:27.:16:29.

English team a sense of confidence and belief in themselves to go out

:16:30.:16:33.

and win. He has a lot of structure as well but he has made them feel

:16:34.:16:36.

bigger than they were because they were downbeat before coming into

:16:37.:16:40.

last year's Six Nations. Warren Gatland will be joining us in a few

:16:41.:16:45.

moments to talk about the Lions and his affiliation to Wales which I'm

:16:46.:16:49.

sure he hasn't put on the back burner for the next couple of weeks.

:16:50.:16:52.

What is your take on the pluses and minuses of the people you worked

:16:53.:16:56.

under? Similar to what has been said already but I wanted to improve, I

:16:57.:17:00.

was selfish as a player and wanted to coach to make me better, loan a

:17:01.:17:05.

new skill or improve a skill is what I thought a coach should do. You

:17:06.:17:09.

will hear it said often a good coach needs good players which I think is

:17:10.:17:12.

coach, true but any coach should make a player that and it is about

:17:13.:17:18.

development. -- learn a new skill. A guy called Rob Moffat, who was my

:17:19.:17:22.

schoolteacher as well as professional coach at Edinburgh,

:17:23.:17:26.

educating and improvement was key for me. In many ways it's the polar

:17:27.:17:29.

opposite to Joe Schmidt but in a lot of ways very similar, he seems so

:17:30.:17:33.

clear in what he believes and what he is saying. That is what I found

:17:34.:17:36.

when I started working under Joe Schmidt, we got absolute clarity on

:17:37.:17:41.

what was expected of us on the field. When you have that you are

:17:42.:17:43.

able to make a really good decisions and can make up physicality. I see

:17:44.:17:49.

similarities between the approaches. Can you give us an insight into the

:17:50.:17:53.

minutiae of detail that the best coaches going to and hand over to

:17:54.:17:56.

you which then improves your performance on the field? One thing

:17:57.:18:01.

we had with Ireland was we had a very narrow field we were expected

:18:02.:18:04.

to be good at. A lot of coaches wanted to you to be a jack of all

:18:05.:18:12.

trades, Joe Schmidt narrows it down and wants players to be world-class

:18:13.:18:16.

with a very small field of skills which allows you to chase down those

:18:17.:18:19.

small set of skills every week instead of chasing down a big wide

:18:20.:18:22.

range of skills. That was a big thing for me towards the end of my

:18:23.:18:26.

career and made a Matip. Mac massive difference. Stopped practising drop

:18:27.:18:31.

kicking and that kind of thing? Exactly. How good could England be?

:18:32.:18:36.

I go along the lines of what Eddie said, they haven't reached their

:18:37.:18:38.

full potential and are not playing their best games but have huge

:18:39.:18:43.

confidence, 14 wins in a row, big statement. To start off at home

:18:44.:18:49.

against France is comfortable for them in the arena and surroundings

:18:50.:18:52.

they are used to. The players that have grown the most that are very

:18:53.:18:57.

influential, Owen Farrell. Increment elite I think over a season he has

:18:58.:19:00.

just got better and better. He knocks over those penalties really

:19:01.:19:07.

in his stride. He is really comfortable. England are good. Given

:19:08.:19:11.

that a few players are missing and Eddie Jones alluded to that,

:19:12.:19:14.

nonetheless, the strength in depth of the English Premiership is such

:19:15.:19:17.

that you almost don't notice some of those players are missing. A big

:19:18.:19:22.

part of England's strength is their 23, not just their starting 15. Even

:19:23.:19:26.

with all of the injuries they have had they can dig deep, as you said,

:19:27.:19:30.

going into the resources and bringing in these players. I look at

:19:31.:19:35.

the bench, George is still there, Sinckler, Haskell, Danny Care, it is

:19:36.:19:39.

power and pace and that's the big difference. If you have lots about

:19:40.:19:43.

in your site you will have a big impact. Talking about injuries, one

:19:44.:19:46.

of the big red hot issues in rugby at the moment is the incidence of

:19:47.:19:51.

head injuries and concussions that affect the game, not just on the

:19:52.:19:55.

international arena but in the club game as well. This is the first Six

:19:56.:19:59.

Nations under a new directive from the world rugby organisation about

:20:00.:20:02.

high tackles and what sanctions will be imposed in the event of foul

:20:03.:20:06.

play. It is not as straightforward as it might seem so we sent Jerry to

:20:07.:20:10.

talk to Wayne Barnes, one of the most influential figures in rugby,

:20:11.:20:13.

to talk about what has changed and what has not.

:20:14.:20:19.

Thank you for coming in today, Wayne. Has been so much chat the

:20:20.:20:25.

tackle guidelines. Let's get one thing straight from the beginning,

:20:26.:20:29.

the laws have not changed, have they? It is just the sanctions. Spot

:20:30.:20:33.

on, nothing has changed from a refereeing perspective, the high

:20:34.:20:37.

tackle, which was a high tackle going this weekend into the first

:20:38.:20:40.

and opening game, will have been a high tackle a year ago and a high

:20:41.:20:43.

tackle ten years ago. The only thing that has changed is the sanction. If

:20:44.:20:47.

you get sent off or cited rather than getting a two-week ban you

:20:48.:20:51.

might get a three or four week ban, so the analogy would be the driving

:20:52.:20:56.

speed limit is still 30 mph, the same, but if you get caught you get

:20:57.:21:00.

five or six points rather than three. We have some clips here,

:21:01.:21:03.

let's just have a look through what we have got. We look at this clip, a

:21:04.:21:08.

player played in the air, Heilan is extremely dangerously and this is a

:21:09.:21:13.

red card. It's always going to be a red card. He knows what he has done

:21:14.:21:17.

wrong straightaway, doesn't he? Yes. We want to protect players and make

:21:18.:21:21.

sure players' heads are protected and this is a way of doing it.

:21:22.:21:25.

Something else to have a look at, we see players being cleaned out, but

:21:26.:21:29.

what we are saying is don't go and lead with the shoulder to play on

:21:30.:21:33.

the floor, so not only in the air but on the floor as well. Is that an

:21:34.:21:38.

immediate red? That is between a yellow and a red because of weather

:21:39.:21:43.

contact is, on the body. And if it was on the head? Easily a red card.

:21:44.:21:48.

Let's look at these tackles, director the head, with force at

:21:49.:21:51.

speed, that is a red card if you see that during the Six Nations -- where

:21:52.:21:57.

the contact is. He will get a long ban if he is sent off or cited for

:21:58.:22:03.

that. Back to the red cards, not as much force on that one, shoulder up

:22:04.:22:07.

into the head, but we are still talking of a card on this because

:22:08.:22:10.

the aim is to get the tackles slightly lower. He's already started

:22:11.:22:15.

high, probably recklessly high to start because he is not tackling low

:22:16.:22:18.

so that would be a yellow card most days. There is a judgment for you

:22:19.:22:26.

guys, the difference between accidental and reckless. Yes, when

:22:27.:22:30.

you get stepped and put out an arm. It is a reflex. If you tickle

:22:31.:22:34.

someone over the face, or the one over the shoulder, I've heard it

:22:35.:22:37.

called the seat belt tackle, you get over the top but your arm makes

:22:38.:22:40.

contact with the head, those are the ones we have to use common sense as

:22:41.:22:43.

referees and understand some players are trying to make a legitimate

:22:44.:22:47.

tackle but get it slightly wrong. We discussed that one as a group last

:22:48.:22:50.

Thursday and we thought that one looked like a penalty. And a similar

:22:51.:22:56.

one here, South Africa- England game, again, slips up, hits the

:22:57.:22:59.

shoulder and Brown carries on running, doesn't he? There is that

:23:00.:23:06.

grey area between the penalty and the yellow. Sometimes between a

:23:07.:23:09.

yellow and a red. If we have any doubt we will give the benefit to

:23:10.:23:13.

the player. If we are thinking this might be a red card we are thinking

:23:14.:23:16.

this might be a red card we're not going to make what is a massive

:23:17.:23:20.

decision unless we are certain. Wynter players come together we get

:23:21.:23:24.

head on head clashing, this isn't foul play, this isn't going to be

:23:25.:23:27.

carded, this isn't going to be penalise. That is just an

:23:28.:23:33.

unfortunate incident in the game -- when two players. That is still part

:23:34.:23:39.

of the game, there is still room for the massive legal tangle. That is

:23:40.:23:42.

why people watch the game, that is not what this is about, it is about

:23:43.:23:45.

the illegal tackles and direct tackles to the head. We want to see

:23:46.:23:51.

12 is being tackled. Taking an overview of what we have talked

:23:52.:23:55.

about? In the past tackles were perhaps aim here and we want to make

:23:56.:23:58.

them consider coming down a little bit and then run the risk of it

:23:59.:24:01.

slipping high or hitting high. If they do and looking at those things,

:24:02.:24:07.

is it foul play? If it is, force and speed and direct to the head. You

:24:08.:24:11.

will hear those words when discussing it between our team and

:24:12.:24:14.

hopefully you will understand where our decisions have come from. Thank

:24:15.:24:20.

you. You were one of the people involved in changing or at least

:24:21.:24:23.

making this directive. What was the main motivation behind

:24:24.:24:28.

it? Play at safety or the image of the game? Player safety, one of the

:24:29.:24:31.

things is the majority of concussions happen in the tackle,

:24:32.:24:34.

happening to the tackle and most importantly they happen with the

:24:35.:24:38.

tackle high bringing the tackle at down. If you look at the last

:24:39.:24:42.

collision between Bastareaud and Sexton, if his tackle was two feet

:24:43.:24:49.

lower there is no head collision. If Bastareaud is a foot or two lower

:24:50.:24:52.

that accidental head collision doesn't happen and that is where a

:24:53.:24:56.

lot of the concussions come from, shoulder to head and head to head.

:24:57.:25:00.

That is the point of the directive, not to protect the ball carrier as

:25:01.:25:05.

such, to protect the tackle. That is one of the few issues I have that

:25:06.:25:08.

instance of a player standing up into the tackle and hitting with his

:25:09.:25:12.

head and Wayne Barnes said that is just an unfortunate collision but

:25:13.:25:15.

until such point that that collision level comes down, which is this

:25:16.:25:19.

directive is trying to lead to, the margin for error on some of those

:25:20.:25:23.

tackles and some of those sanctions are only an inch or two inches, so

:25:24.:25:28.

you can hit across the chest with a proper tackle, if a guy dips or

:25:29.:25:33.

ducks into that accidentally or not accidentally, it can lead to a

:25:34.:25:37.

higher sanction. The query is as to whether that level has to come lower

:25:38.:25:40.

still. That is one of them. This is a step towards it. But the nasty

:25:41.:25:45.

element of this is there are two or three concussions, concussive

:25:46.:25:50.

incidents, happening every game. That cannot continue so hopefully

:25:51.:25:53.

this goes some way towards that but it may need to go further in time.

:25:54.:25:57.

The increased sanction is a warning and the coaches cannot ignore it.

:25:58.:26:01.

They must coach the players to tackle Lola, they cannot take the

:26:02.:26:05.

risk. The weight Wayne Barnes described that and summarised the

:26:06.:26:09.

tackles was excellent. The last one, Buster and Sexton, was maybe country

:26:10.:26:16.

-- contradictory because he could have gone lower. If you train lower

:26:17.:26:23.

it will not be an issue. That was a complete accident, this game is

:26:24.:26:28.

physical. You shouldn't shirk away from confrontation. If Bastareaud or

:26:29.:26:31.

any player wants to stand tall they should be allowed. One or two people

:26:32.:26:34.

this week have said the game is going soft, you expect this kind of

:26:35.:26:39.

comment, it is a physical and confrontational game and this is

:26:40.:26:42.

making it less so. How could you counter that? It has not gone soft

:26:43.:26:47.

at all and Bastareaud, if he is two feet lower it is a bigger hit.

:26:48.:26:53.

Tackle technique, good, accurate, low hard tackles will always give

:26:54.:27:00.

you that. You spend time with Wayne Barnes. If they implement this to

:27:01.:27:03.

the law we could have an awful lot of yellow cards which might have a

:27:04.:27:06.

major impact on the number of points scored in the game in the wake that

:27:07.:27:09.

matches pan out as a consequence and coaches will be very aware of that.

:27:10.:27:13.

As Chris has said the coaches have to coach, the way that it should be

:27:14.:27:18.

tackled by the guidelines, and if anybody steps out, or we want from

:27:19.:27:23.

the referees is consistency. We don't want one decision is a penalty

:27:24.:27:26.

and one decision is a yellow for a similar incident. It has to be

:27:27.:27:31.

consistent. We will see how that pans out during the course of the

:27:32.:27:34.

championship which we love so much because of the domestic rivalries.

:27:35.:27:38.

But it is a global event and I'm sure many thousands of people will

:27:39.:27:40.

stay up into the early hours of Sunday morning to watch this match.

:27:41.:27:45.

Here is a question, who is the greatest All Black of all-time?

:27:46.:27:48.

Possibly, probably Richie McCaw and his life story reads like something

:27:49.:27:53.

from a film script. Twice a World Cup winner, twice a World Cup

:27:54.:27:56.

captain, and actually as a consequence of that, they have made

:27:57.:28:01.

a film about it. It's called Chasing Great and chronicles the year up to

:28:02.:28:04.

the All Blacks winning the World Cup here two years ago.

:28:05.:28:16.

So Richie McCaw, movie star, you must be thrilled with it, it is a

:28:17.:28:22.

fantastic watch. All of the feedback has been pretty positive. To give an

:28:23.:28:29.

insight into what you felt and how you saw things, it wasn't that easy

:28:30.:28:32.

because it wasn't natural. But I'm really happy I did. When those

:28:33.:28:37.

moments came, the last time you would play test rugby, it did look

:28:38.:28:41.

like you were able to just take all that in and absorb the appreciation.

:28:42.:28:46.

If there is one thing I look back on, it was always going on to the

:28:47.:28:50.

next thing, you didn't stop and appreciate what the team had done,

:28:51.:28:54.

or what you had done. I knew the last year I wanted to enjoy it but

:28:55.:28:58.

also not crawl to the end, I wanted to be there so I was playing like I

:28:59.:29:03.

had when I was younger. Who do you look at now in world rugby? The

:29:04.:29:07.

players you enjoyed playing against. You look at it differently when you

:29:08.:29:12.

are not going to compete against them. I appreciate more what they

:29:13.:29:17.

do. I know I had some good battles against Sean O'Brien but probably

:29:18.:29:21.

didn't sit and appreciate what a good player he is, I thought I would

:29:22.:29:25.

have a tough match playing him next, you sit and appreciate that rather

:29:26.:29:28.

than thinking how can I stop that guy? It is a different way of

:29:29.:29:32.

looking at it. Six Nations is upon us and England went the whole of

:29:33.:29:36.

last year as an unbeaten test side and go into this tournament as the

:29:37.:29:39.

team to beat. It is quite intriguing. I feel there is very

:29:40.:29:47.

little between the teams. Even the All Blacks were beaten and the

:29:48.:29:54.

Australians. It has added spice to the whole thing. You could say

:29:55.:29:57.

England are the favourites but there are some tough matches when you look

:29:58.:30:00.

at the Irish and the French, I thought they were quite impressive

:30:01.:30:03.

in the game against the All Blacks. It won't take much to swing around

:30:04.:30:08.

again. What do you make of the comments Eddie Jones has come out

:30:09.:30:10.

with that there aren't enough world-class players in the Six

:30:11.:30:16.

Nations? I think he's using that as a bit of motivation. He talked about

:30:17.:30:21.

consistency is what he was meaning to be a top-class player and team

:30:22.:30:25.

you've got to do it every week. That is obviously what he's aiming for.

:30:26.:30:30.

Not just happy with what happened last year, that they go and do it

:30:31.:30:36.

again. There are players who for a British and Irish Lions tour is a

:30:37.:30:40.

big thing, do they get stoked up about the idea of the Lions coming

:30:41.:30:45.

down at the All Blacks? Absolutely, it is huge. You get one chance at it

:30:46.:30:53.

in your career. It is every 12 years for you guys. Yes and the guys are

:30:54.:30:57.

pretty excited by it. They realise you get one chance and if you blow

:30:58.:30:59.

it you might not get another go. Nobody more interested in what would

:31:00.:31:09.

you call was saying more than Warren Gatland. Even when you hear him

:31:10.:31:14.

talking like that, even you, a seasoned campaigner, as you are, do

:31:15.:31:17.

you immediately get the sense of excitement in your bones?

:31:18.:31:22.

Absolutely. I think New Zealand are really excited about the Lions'

:31:23.:31:26.

tool. It's been 12 years. There's a real sense of anticipation about

:31:27.:31:31.

potentially what could happen. Particularly after the way the

:31:32.:31:35.

northern hemisphere teams performed in the autumn. Created more

:31:36.:31:38.

anticipation. Is it fair to say taking a Lions team to New Zealand

:31:39.:31:42.

is the biggest challenge any coach can face? It is a huge challenge. It

:31:43.:31:46.

wasn't until I left New Zealand but I realised and understood what a

:31:47.:31:49.

difficult country it is to go and tour and play and perform and to

:31:50.:31:54.

win. It is a huge challenge. Hopefully some of that insight,

:31:55.:31:59.

knowledge, that those experiences might potentially make that

:32:00.:32:03.

difference. In your mind, how many of the touring party had you, kind

:32:04.:32:05.

of, got inked in already? At the moment, there's quite a few.

:32:06.:32:13.

Look at the performances, particularly Ireland beating the All

:32:14.:32:17.

Blacks in Chicago. The performances in the autumn. There's probably a

:32:18.:32:21.

number of players pencilled in at the moment but today's resolve could

:32:22.:32:25.

turn it upside down. If Scotland win today, France beat England, Wales

:32:26.:32:28.

lose tomorrow, it's going to create a huge headache for me. On form at

:32:29.:32:36.

the moment, I would pick a squad of 37, 38, you could probably pencil in

:32:37.:32:41.

15-20 years on their performances. But results, like I said, individual

:32:42.:32:45.

performances in the Six Nations will count. How many names are pencilled

:32:46.:32:50.

into the possible captains' list? A huge amount. No doubt. As Paul

:32:51.:32:55.

understands. About the captain and the pressures. The thing about the

:32:56.:32:58.

captain, I will pick the squad first and then I will choose the captain.

:32:59.:33:04.

The captain will be well aware it is a great honour to be selected in the

:33:05.:33:08.

Lions but no guarantees. If someone is in your position and playing

:33:09.:33:10.

better than you, potentially somebody else will play in the tests

:33:11.:33:16.

and captain the test side. In 2013, we were lucky enough to go to Hong

:33:17.:33:21.

Kong for a week. We trained hard, but we had a few nights out as well.

:33:22.:33:25.

There won't be a lot of time for that in New Zealand. How will you

:33:26.:33:30.

manage... You will have the assistance, players, defence,

:33:31.:33:32.

attack, line-out. How will you become a team that is really ready

:33:33.:33:35.

to play for each other, the Test series? It is going to be tough.

:33:36.:33:40.

Paul, that's the biggest challenge we got at the moment. In terms of

:33:41.:33:45.

the schedules of the games, I think they're great. 2009, 2013, we won

:33:46.:33:50.

some games by 60, 70 points, but that is note preparation for the

:33:51.:33:57.

Test match. In Super Rugby, that is fantastic preparation in terms of

:33:58.:33:59.

how tough it is. But the first time we assembled on a Sunday after the

:34:00.:34:05.

Pro12 and the Premiership final, we fly on the Monday at a rival New

:34:06.:34:09.

Zealand on Wednesday. The first game is on a Saturday. How do you

:34:10.:34:14.

manufacture that? The best thing for a touring party is to have a couple

:34:15.:34:19.

of beers together, enjoy yourself. The first night after the game, we

:34:20.:34:22.

will look to try and... We've got some days off without being stupid.

:34:23.:34:28.

But we got to try and bond as quickly as we can. Everybody loves a

:34:29.:34:33.

good conspiracy theory. There is a lot of people who think that you had

:34:34.:34:38.

influence on Rob Howley in Alun Wyn Jones becoming the Welsh captain

:34:39.:34:41.

because you see him as your captain in the summer. What would you like

:34:42.:34:44.

to say to that? That is an absolute conspiracy theory. What I've tried

:34:45.:34:50.

to do is to make sure that Rob's had autonomy in that role. We talk on a

:34:51.:34:54.

regular basis but I purposely made sure I'd stayed away from that. He

:34:55.:34:58.

makes all the calls, the decisions. He spoke to me about Alun Wyn Jones

:34:59.:35:03.

doing the job and I said it's your call, you've got to... You're in

:35:04.:35:07.

charge of the team, you've got to run the team. Me trying to step

:35:08.:35:10.

away, I'm trying to... It's difficult. I'm passionate about

:35:11.:35:15.

Wales and him doing well but having some neutrality with people thinking

:35:16.:35:19.

about the selection being fair, unbiased. Everybody has a fair and

:35:20.:35:23.

equal chance. It will be hard for you to be neutral in Cardiff next

:35:24.:35:26.

weekend. Will you be screaming "Offside". Well you say "Miss it" if

:35:27.:35:33.

Owen Farrell has one open in front of the posts? Not at all. My heart

:35:34.:35:37.

is with Wales. When I was coaching Ireland I was desperate for them to

:35:38.:35:41.

do well. When I coach the Wasps it was the same, you want them to do

:35:42.:35:45.

well. And the same with Wales. Of course you want the Welsh team to do

:35:46.:35:49.

well. Like I just said. My whole focus is on the Lions. Going to New

:35:50.:35:53.

Zealand and hopefully winning the Test series. This refers to what

:35:54.:35:57.

Eddie Jones that in the interview earlier on, how he thinks that

:35:58.:36:00.

England's are going to beat New Zealand if they play in a more

:36:01.:36:05.

expansive and entertaining fashion and perhaps we normally associate

:36:06.:36:09.

with them, the pragmatic northern hemisphere approach. We may see one

:36:10.:36:13.

or two games over the first round of the Six Nations that people are not

:36:14.:36:16.

exactly adventurous because there is so much at stake in the early stage

:36:17.:36:20.

of the competition. For the Lions to win in New Zealand this summer, do

:36:21.:36:25.

you have to be expensive, adventurous, dynamic? I think you

:36:26.:36:28.

do. The weather conditions in the Six Nations tends to play a bit of a

:36:29.:36:33.

part in that in terms of the opening rounds. By the end of March, we see

:36:34.:36:37.

better weather conditions. The point of difference that New Zealand have

:36:38.:36:41.

is their type five, they think they have a type five that can all catch,

:36:42.:36:46.

pass, play, play expansively. We need to match them. Look at the

:36:47.:36:51.

potential of the tight five, players who are great ball-carriers,

:36:52.:36:54.

dynamic, athletic. I'm really excited about the squad compared to

:36:55.:36:58.

2013, the amount of choices you've got. When I try to pick squads I'm

:36:59.:37:00.

scratching my head. There are some real quality players

:37:01.:37:07.

and will miss out on the squad. It's a great position to be in but they

:37:08.:37:10.

will be some tough selection. Happy watching over the next few weeks,

:37:11.:37:15.

great to see you, thank you. Warren Gatland the Lions coach. An

:37:16.:37:19.

undercurrent to who will lead won't go on the Lions tour throughout this

:37:20.:37:22.

Six Nations championship. From a coach who is a very seasoned in his

:37:23.:37:25.

experience in the international arena who one who is cutting his

:37:26.:37:32.

teeth at the moment, O'Shea in the -- the new man in charge. This will

:37:33.:37:37.

be his first Six Nations in charge at the helm in Rome.

:37:38.:37:50.

Life is about changing. Freshening yourself up and experiencing things.

:37:51.:37:56.

Personally and professionally over the next couple of years, we can

:37:57.:37:59.

contribute to the start of a renaissance in Italian rugby.

:38:00.:38:12.

That is the first time we've ever beat in a southern hemisphere side.

:38:13.:38:17.

To do it gives the younger generation something to aspire to.

:38:18.:38:21.

It gives some great, great players a memory of a lifetime.

:38:22.:38:27.

Thank you. We are realistic as well. We know, we are in Rome, it wasn't

:38:28.:38:46.

built in a day, we are realistic about the challenge that we have

:38:47.:38:48.

that was pretty special day. We will have some great days, we

:38:49.:38:55.

will have some tough days, but we're going to get better and better. I

:38:56.:39:00.

split this job into short, medium and long-term and short-term, to

:39:01.:39:03.

become competitive, medium-term, be at the next World Cup as a team that

:39:04.:39:07.

no one wants to play and long-term, hopefully change the system

:39:08.:39:10.

structure for the better. It is not easy to change everything in second

:39:11.:39:16.

but Conor and the team and I know that little by little, the team

:39:17.:39:19.

wants to change. The change starts from us, the national team. We know

:39:20.:39:23.

that every time we go out and have a good result, it's a really, really

:39:24.:39:26.

good thing for all of the movement in Italy. Winning is a relevant.

:39:27.:39:33.

Winning will happen -- winning is irrelevant. Our performance is

:39:34.:39:36.

everything. That is what we will focus on. I am looking at the first

:39:37.:39:41.

game thinking that if we go 1-80 and we are still playing, tackling,

:39:42.:39:45.

chasing, still playing ball in hand after 80 minutes, the result will be

:39:46.:39:49.

the result. I will get judged, players deliver that, you win. I

:39:50.:39:53.

think he's a very positive person, he is motivated and excited. Every

:39:54.:39:57.

time we meet together in camp and even in November, it was a good

:39:58.:40:02.

three weeks together. It is important to have the player with a

:40:03.:40:05.

good mentality and positive. We want to focus on doing two or three

:40:06.:40:09.

things brilliantly and not do ten things averagely. When we have done

:40:10.:40:12.

two or three things, we will do four and five and then one we've done

:40:13.:40:18.

that, six and seven. It is an Italian mentality, physical,

:40:19.:40:20.

passionate, don't be afraid to be that and proud to be that. You can

:40:21.:40:25.

control your mind. You can control your mindset. You can control what

:40:26.:40:30.

you're willing to do. I've seen a group of fellows here who need

:40:31.:40:33.

confidence, they need to be supported. It's very difficult. If I

:40:34.:40:37.

keep on saying to you, I've said this only time, your bad at your

:40:38.:40:40.

job, your bad at your job, your bad at your job, I don't know -- don't

:40:41.:40:45.

like what you did at long last week, it will eat you. When you're on the

:40:46.:40:48.

pitch, how can you have confidence? A heroic performance by the whole

:40:49.:40:52.

Italian side. France have squeaked their way to a win. Brendan came

:40:53.:40:56.

over knowing it was a challenge. Catty has come down, knowing it's a

:40:57.:41:11.

challenge. Anybody who can get them kicking at international level, it's

:41:12.:41:14.

about them understanding what to do, how to do it. And get the feel for

:41:15.:41:19.

the game. Unfortunately, it's down to experience as well and they've

:41:20.:41:25.

need experience. We've worked heavily on building a relationship

:41:26.:41:27.

with the players and making them better people. What I've seen over

:41:28.:41:30.

the past six months, they are willing to change and put the hard

:41:31.:41:33.

graft in. Whether you will win trophies or not is another question

:41:34.:41:36.

but it will be a very competitive side, believe me. I played on a team

:41:37.:41:41.

in the 90s that could have been relegated a few times. I keep on

:41:42.:41:44.

coming back to it, we will play by the rules, the wheels will be there

:41:45.:41:47.

for a long time, they will not change in the short-term. -- the

:41:48.:41:51.

rules. This cannot be a country that rugby would go backwards in, it

:41:52.:41:53.

would be the biggest disservice to the game. We need to make sure that

:41:54.:41:57.

Italy becomes a strong rugby nation again at a competitive one. It would

:41:58.:42:05.

be easy me to, the hearsay, I could name 20-24 of the World Cup squad

:42:06.:42:08.

that could go to Japan in 2019 and have a lovely time, focus on that

:42:09.:42:12.

and move on. But there is so much passion and desire to change. We

:42:13.:42:16.

can't do it quickly because we don't have unlimited resources, we need to

:42:17.:42:19.

box clever and make peace after peace. At the structures in place to

:42:20.:42:24.

build to where we want. It's a fascinating challenge -- put in the

:42:25.:42:28.

structures in place. Hopefully you leave something behind, not just

:42:29.:42:31.

some wallpaper and a nice win against South Africa, you want some

:42:32.:42:35.

structure behind it as well and hopefully I can do that as well.

:42:36.:42:39.

STUDIO: What a fascinating interview with Conor O'Shea. Great for TV as

:42:40.:42:44.

well. You know him very well, what do you think about the challenge he

:42:45.:42:48.

is facing and his credibility of confronting it? I think he loves the

:42:49.:42:52.

challenge. He would have watched Quins, long before he went there, as

:42:53.:42:56.

director of rugby. He would have seen all the work going at age grade

:42:57.:43:02.

and academy level, the exact same thing happened in Italy. He watched

:43:03.:43:05.

all the money in Italian rugby that has been pumped into the youth

:43:06.:43:10.

teams, under 20 teams, Academy teams in the years passed. Some of the

:43:11.:43:13.

reasons that Italy are struggling at the moment is that they took their

:43:14.:43:17.

eye off the ball for the professional structures. They are

:43:18.:43:19.

having difficulty with that. He saw where the work was done and he would

:43:20.:43:23.

have seen the players and he would say, I will have a go at this. He

:43:24.:43:30.

was very expansive as a player but unbelievably pragmatic as a leader,

:43:31.:43:33.

director. His managerial admin, organisation, incredibly focused. He

:43:34.:43:38.

is incredibly ambitious. One of the things I would say, there's just no

:43:39.:43:41.

way in the world he would go there without thinking that he could make

:43:42.:43:44.

a success of it. I think it will deliver something good out of it.

:43:45.:43:49.

His hands are very tight. We will see what he can deliver tomorrow

:43:50.:43:52.

when Italy play Wales in Rome and extensive highlights on that on

:43:53.:43:57.

rugby special tomorrow tea-time on BBC Two. What about now?

:43:58.:44:01.

John Inverdale looks ahead to the 2017 Six Nations Championship. Defending champions England will be aiming to record back-to-back grand slams for the first time in 25 years - and the first time since the competition was enlarged to six teams in 2000.