:00:25. > :00:34.Baroness Lister. I beg leave to ask the question on the order paper.
:00:35. > :00:38.According to the latest data from the office nor national statistics,
:00:39. > :00:44.income and equality in the UK is at its lowest level since 1986. The key
:00:45. > :00:47.to economic success and to reducing inequality is to improve
:00:48. > :00:52.productivity which determines living standards in the long run. That's
:00:53. > :00:56.why the Government's established a national productivity investment
:00:57. > :01:01.fund and has published a green paper on industrial strategy highlighting
:01:02. > :01:05.the role of improved skills, of infrastructure, investment and of
:01:06. > :01:11.RMD. My Lords, the resolution foundation argues that to prevent
:01:12. > :01:16.the biggest increase in inequality since the 1980s requires a shift in
:01:17. > :01:21.social policy choices. Notably the freeze in most working age benefits
:01:22. > :01:28.in the face of rising inflation. Will the Government now follow the
:01:29. > :01:35.advice of Iain Duncan Smith and reconsider the freeze because he's
:01:36. > :01:42.warned that it was never intended it would have such a dramatic effect on
:01:43. > :01:46.incomes - his words. Wouldn't it be the right thing to do to protect low
:01:47. > :01:50.inform income families in and out of work in this way for a Government
:01:51. > :01:56.that claims to be working for everyone. My Lords, I think we have
:01:57. > :02:01.to have a little bit of context. Savings are necessary to reduce
:02:02. > :02:10.borrowing and to put the public finances back on a sustainable
:02:11. > :02:17.footing after the financial crisis. And between 1980 and 2014, spending
:02:18. > :02:22.on welfare actually trebled in Rae terms to ?96 billion whilst of
:02:23. > :02:26.course GDP increased by much less -- in real terms. Our approach was a
:02:27. > :02:35.different one. We are committed to supporting working families with a
:02:36. > :02:40.whole load of measures - getting people back into work, innovating,
:02:41. > :02:43.growing and putting the country on to a good footing. It's only a
:02:44. > :02:46.forecast from the resolution foundation. Forecasts aren't always
:02:47. > :02:49.right and we are determined to make the changes we need for this
:02:50. > :02:59.country. Going back to text change about
:03:00. > :03:03.inequality... Could my Noble Friend the minister say whether any
:03:04. > :03:09.assessment has been made of the effect of the national living wage
:03:10. > :03:15.on reducing inequality and indeed whether there's anything more that
:03:16. > :03:20.could be done in this respect? I thank my Noble Friend because I
:03:21. > :03:26.believe that the national living wage brought in in April last year
:03:27. > :03:32.is a fantastic example of policies that the Government has introduced
:03:33. > :03:38.to make work pay. In terms of looking forward, it will rise again
:03:39. > :03:42.to ?7. 50 next month and it's already given the working people in
:03:43. > :03:49.Britain the fastest pay rise in 20 years.
:03:50. > :03:54.Observers will have noticed that there's a startling contradiction
:03:55. > :03:58.between the presumption in the question that income inequality has
:03:59. > :04:04.been growing very sharply and the resumption in the reply that it's
:04:05. > :04:08.doing the opposite. There are different measures, but most of them
:04:09. > :04:13.do think that inequality is growing. Wouldn't it be useful if the ONS
:04:14. > :04:19.convened a panel of people to get a little more clarity as to why these
:04:20. > :04:23.figures can be banded around with such different descriptions of what
:04:24. > :04:29.is happening? I think the ONS keeps honest, they
:04:30. > :04:34.look at the figures over time and they very helpfully update the
:04:35. > :04:38.forecasts all the time so that we can see what is happening. I would
:04:39. > :04:44.like to come back to the point which is that the resolution foundation is
:04:45. > :04:47.looking at a forecast. If you look at what has happened, five years ago
:04:48. > :04:53.it was predicted I think by the IFS that there would be a rise in
:04:54. > :04:58.inequality. In fact, it hasn't happened actually. Things have
:04:59. > :05:03.continued to progress and we have seen a recovery and that is what we
:05:04. > :05:05.need to continue by having the right policies which this Government is
:05:06. > :05:10.pursuing under our new Prime Minister.
:05:11. > :05:15.My Lords, I am shocked that the minister doesn't recognise that
:05:16. > :05:17.young working families are facing serious financial pressure and
:05:18. > :05:22.struggling and that it looks as though it's going to be worse with
:05:23. > :05:27.inflation. But would she agree that part of the reason for the very high
:05:28. > :05:32.rents most of the families face, and would she be willing on the budget
:05:33. > :05:37.tomorrow to permit local councils to go out and borrow the necessary
:05:38. > :05:40.amounts of money to Drive forward development of affordable rental
:05:41. > :05:43.housing. She's often acknowledged that the housing market is broken
:05:44. > :05:48.but all of the Government solutions are on the demand side, supply
:05:49. > :05:53.doesn't increase, especially not in the affordable area.
:05:54. > :05:58.I wouldn't want to steal the Chancellor's thunder today and I
:05:59. > :06:01.think that there is certainly some provision for Prudential borrowing
:06:02. > :06:04.but I would like to come back to the support that we give to working
:06:05. > :06:09.families. The national living wage has already been mentioned by my
:06:10. > :06:13.Noble Friend and that's given the fastest pay rise in 20 years. We
:06:14. > :06:19.have raised the personal allowance to ?12,500 by the end of Parliament,
:06:20. > :06:22.nobody had done that before, we are introducing Universal Credit which
:06:23. > :06:32.has the benefit of making work pay, so that if you go out and work, you
:06:33. > :06:35.aren't held back by benefit dilemmas. We are committed to make
:06:36. > :06:40.work pay and we believe that that is the very best way forward for the
:06:41. > :06:43.people of this country, for hard-working families, which I agree
:06:44. > :06:48.are a priority. But my Lords, the minister cannot
:06:49. > :06:54.discount the resolution foundation in such a cavalier manner. It
:06:55. > :07:00.produced very... It's got a strong reputation and it produced very real
:07:01. > :07:07.and well backed analysis. It said that higher incomes will rise but
:07:08. > :07:14.slowly. Middle incomes are going to stagnate. And low incomes are going
:07:15. > :07:20.to fall. We know how little is at the base for low incomes for them to
:07:21. > :07:28.be able to afford to fall without poverty increasing substantially.
:07:29. > :07:33.They say it will be the biggest rise in inequality since the late 1980s.
:07:34. > :07:39.I do not need to remind the House which party was in power during that
:07:40. > :07:41.period and which Prime Minister, many of whose Cabinet members of
:07:42. > :07:52.course are still with us. I would add that the resolution
:07:53. > :07:56.foundation report also says, which is a point I've been emphasising,
:07:57. > :07:59.that economic forecasts can change dramatically. There's no way of
:08:00. > :08:06.knowing just how the future will play out. I believe that the
:08:07. > :08:12.approach we now have, including industrial strategy, investment in
:08:13. > :08:20.infrastructure, housing, digital, transport, all of this is making a
:08:21. > :08:25.big difference. We have protected the most vulnerable through benefits
:08:26. > :08:37.systems which is highly distributive, so households in the
:08:38. > :08:42.lowest get four times more support. We want a fairer society and getting
:08:43. > :08:47.workless households into work and improving productivity and skills is
:08:48. > :08:49.to my mind the best way forward. I beg leave to ask the question
:08:50. > :08:54.standing in my name on the order paper.
:08:55. > :08:58.My Lords, the Government's white paper on exiting the EU was
:08:59. > :09:01.published on 2nd February. It sets out the Government's priorities and
:09:02. > :09:06.the broad strategy for exiting the EU and made clear that we'll take
:09:07. > :09:10.back control of our own laws. There are a number of options as to how EU
:09:11. > :09:15.immigration might work once we have exited the EU. We are considering
:09:16. > :09:17.those options and will consult businesses and communities.
:09:18. > :09:23.Parliament will also have a critical role to play.
:09:24. > :09:27.To have beening main pressure so called is rally from non-EU
:09:28. > :09:34.migrants. Why didn't the Government many years ago use clause 45 of the
:09:35. > :09:40.TFEU, particularly 3 A and 3 A, C and D, to impose the necessary
:09:41. > :09:44.civilised restraints on migrants coming in with authorisation so that
:09:45. > :09:48.none of the horrendous hostility to immigrants from all over would have
:09:49. > :09:53.been so evident in the referendum on 23rd June.
:09:54. > :09:57.Well, my Lords, I think the noble Lord - I can't be accountable for
:09:58. > :10:03.what happened in the past - I think we have been a very, very generous
:10:04. > :10:07.country in terms of letting people come here for the purposes of work.
:10:08. > :10:11.What I can say is that there was very clear messages last year, which
:10:12. > :10:16.is about controlling the numbers of people who come into this country,
:10:17. > :10:21.both from the EU and from non-EU countries and that is what we intend
:10:22. > :10:27.to do and to keep Parliament fully involved in the process.
:10:28. > :10:31.On the 12th January, the Government stated in response to an oral
:10:32. > :10:38.question that "the directive sets out that in order for an EU citizen
:10:39. > :10:44.to reside in another member state beyond three months, they "must" be
:10:45. > :10:46.exercising a treaty right, that is working self-employed,
:10:47. > :10:50.self-sufficient or a student. " After being asked three times why it
:10:51. > :10:53.did not implement the three month rule for EU citizens still here
:10:54. > :10:57.without a job, not a student, the Government said "it's not a failure
:10:58. > :11:02.to implement, this country is more than generous in its implementation
:11:03. > :11:07.of that directive". Firstly, why does the Government maintain that
:11:08. > :11:12.only by leaving the EU can we reduce EU migration when the Government
:11:13. > :11:15.accepts it's not applied the EU directive three month rule as firmly
:11:16. > :11:19.as it could have done but instead considers that it's been "more than
:11:20. > :11:24.generous in its implementation of the directive". And secondly, how
:11:25. > :11:28.much lower would the net migration figure for EU nationals have been in
:11:29. > :11:33.each of the last five years if the Government had applied the EU three
:11:34. > :11:38.month rule directive as firmly as it believes it was entitled to do so.
:11:39. > :11:44.My Lords, as the noble Lord said, we have been a very generous country
:11:45. > :11:48.and certainly when Labour were in power, they decided not to exercise
:11:49. > :11:55.the opt-out, as the noble Lord was asking. In terms of what would the
:11:56. > :12:00.figures have been, we adopted a different process. My Lords, we are
:12:01. > :12:06.where we are. The country's given us a very, very clear message in the
:12:07. > :12:10.referendum and we intend to follow that through in terms of making sure
:12:11. > :12:16.that net migration to this country is in the tens of thousands.
:12:17. > :12:22.My Lords, I shall endeavour to be helpful to the noble lady the
:12:23. > :12:29.Minister. The questions have been about the past, can I ask about the
:12:30. > :12:33.future? Article 45 relates to the free movement of workers, not people
:12:34. > :12:37.generally, and I wonder what thought Her Majesty's government has given
:12:38. > :12:43.to the excellent report by the House of Commons Brexit committee, which
:12:44. > :12:50.also talks about the right of UK and EU national citizens with non-work
:12:51. > :12:54.aspects of immigration policy, including students, family reunion
:12:55. > :13:01.and EU spouses compared with non-EU spouses, and I declare my interest
:13:02. > :13:06.as listed in the register. My Lords, it is absolutely right that we
:13:07. > :13:12.settle, and I'm glad she is talking about the future by the way and not
:13:13. > :13:17.the past, which certainly I do not remember. But certainly, in terms of
:13:18. > :13:20.the directive which is about the movement of workers and their
:13:21. > :13:27.families, I think the Prime Minister has made it clear about the
:13:28. > :13:31.protecting the rights of EU nationals in this country. But we
:13:32. > :13:34.have talked a lot about the fairness of the process and therefore,
:13:35. > :13:40.protecting the rights of EU nationals in return. The Government
:13:41. > :13:44.does not want to do this on a unilateral basis, but we need to
:13:45. > :13:50.think about all the people, both EU nationals living in the EU and EU
:13:51. > :13:53.nationals living here. My Lords, the noble Baroness the
:13:54. > :13:59.Minister has actually been very patient with the House over recent
:14:00. > :14:05.questions in explaining to us, the rights of residence after five years
:14:06. > :14:12.work as European citizens, and also about the right of citizenship after
:14:13. > :14:17.six years. Can she tell the House whether, as regards citizenship, if
:14:18. > :14:21.a European citizen becomes a citizen of the UK, does that mean he or she
:14:22. > :14:28.has the right to remain in this country? I am broke grateful to the
:14:29. > :14:33.noble Lord because we talked about this at length the other day, and in
:14:34. > :14:41.terms of residency rights, the right of residency, and by the way, this
:14:42. > :14:44.is an EU law and not a UK law, so all the talk we had about
:14:45. > :14:54.conferences sickness insurance, this is EU law, which we implement, after
:14:55. > :14:58.five years of abiding by treaty obligations, the noble Lord is
:14:59. > :15:02.absolutely right. At person, and EU national living in this country has
:15:03. > :15:05.permanent residency. They do not have to prove that permanent
:15:06. > :15:11.residency but then he goes on to make another point which is very
:15:12. > :15:16.valid which is to distinguish that from applying from Richard
:15:17. > :15:24.citizenship. And in that application process, which is based in UK law,
:15:25. > :15:27.that person has to prove residency and not to be breaking any
:15:28. > :15:31.immigration rules. After six years they will then be granted UK
:15:32. > :15:37.citizenship and the noble Lord is absolutely right, they have the
:15:38. > :15:43.right to remain here. I beg leave to ask the question in
:15:44. > :15:46.my name on the order paper. This government is committed to
:15:47. > :15:52.working for everyone in all parts of this country. I am grateful to the
:15:53. > :15:55.noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dinnington on rural proofing. We
:15:56. > :16:00.will better understand and reflect the needs of rural communities on
:16:01. > :16:04.our policies, including those on low incomes. The Government is currently
:16:05. > :16:14.revising its guidance on rural proofing and it will be available. I
:16:15. > :16:18.welcome the work but why do same any government departments fail to
:16:19. > :16:22.recognise the huge barrier of transport costs faced by families on
:16:23. > :16:27.low incomes in rural areas when they need to access public services,
:16:28. > :16:31.whether it is young people needed to -- needing to get to further
:16:32. > :16:35.education colleges, older people needing to access health and social
:16:36. > :16:40.services, they are so often cut off and excluded by the costs of
:16:41. > :16:42.transport. Surely, we cannot allow ourselves to stumble into a
:16:43. > :16:47.situation where you have to be well off to live in the countryside? I
:16:48. > :16:52.entirely agree with the noble Lord that it is very important that we
:16:53. > :16:55.enhance accessibility. I think sparsity and topography of the
:16:56. > :17:01.countryside means there are great challenges. I'm particularly pleased
:17:02. > :17:05.that the community minibus fund which was launched, it will enable
:17:06. > :17:09.300 local charities and community groups across England to receive a
:17:10. > :17:15.new minibus which I think will be very helpful. But clearly, there is
:17:16. > :17:19.more that we want to do. I should say that the whole issue of
:17:20. > :17:23.transport and the issue of accessibility, I think it is very
:17:24. > :17:26.important that under the post office transformation, or the post office
:17:27. > :17:32.branches will have banking facilities, so there are ways in
:17:33. > :17:36.which we can actually assist rural communities across the piece. It is
:17:37. > :17:40.international apprenticeship week. What is the Government doing to
:17:41. > :17:46.encourage apprenticeships in rural areas? The Government is committed
:17:47. > :17:51.actually to reaching 3 million prints ship starts in England by
:17:52. > :17:58.2020. This figure includes trebling the number of apprenticeships in
:17:59. > :18:02.food and farming from 6000 to 18000 by 20 20. The National Parks
:18:03. > :18:06.authority are seeking to double the number of apprenticeships, and I
:18:07. > :18:11.think it is very important that we encourage not only this week, but we
:18:12. > :18:15.work with employers of all sizes, there is a new apprenticeship levy
:18:16. > :18:18.coming into force in April this year for the larger businesses. This is
:18:19. > :18:22.an enormous opportunity and I think raising the skills of young people
:18:23. > :18:29.in the countryside, and in fact across the nation, is a force for
:18:30. > :18:33.good. My Lords, the commission for rural communities was established in
:18:34. > :18:37.2005 by the last Labour administration to promote awareness
:18:38. > :18:40.of rural needs among decision-makers across government. It produced some
:18:41. > :18:45.key reports on rural life. Those living in poverty in rural areas,
:18:46. > :18:52.often in geographical isolation, can be harder to identify and help. But
:18:53. > :18:57.my Lords, the coalition government scrapped the ICRC in 2013. With
:18:58. > :19:00.issues of agriculture, trade and food policy on Brexit, could the
:19:01. > :19:04.noble lord the Minister confirm what structures are in place to assure
:19:05. > :19:09.the interests of rural communities are heard and acted upon during
:19:10. > :19:16.these negotiations? My Lords, I will make sure the noble
:19:17. > :19:20.Lord receives copy of the rural proofing guidance. I have been
:19:21. > :19:24.working with my friend Ben Gummer of the Cabinet Office on this because
:19:25. > :19:29.it is important that across Whitehall all departments understand
:19:30. > :19:34.the issues of rural communities and also as Minister for rural affairs,
:19:35. > :19:40.I am on a number of ministerial task forces, connectivity and housing to
:19:41. > :19:44.mention two, precisely to ensure that the rural voices heard.
:19:45. > :19:49.My Lords, given what the Minister has just said, I wonder whether he
:19:50. > :19:54.is concerned by the fact that in many rural and underprivileged
:19:55. > :19:59.areas, libraries and leisure centres are under threat. These are the very
:20:00. > :20:07.places that offer a glimmer of light to people who lead a dark lives in
:20:08. > :20:11.terms of entertainment and education? My Lords, this rather
:20:12. > :20:17.takes me back to my DC MS days and I think one of the things that strikes
:20:18. > :20:21.me is very much how vibrant so many rural communities are, certainly in
:20:22. > :20:26.my part of Suffolk. The amount of activities going on, cultural
:20:27. > :20:29.activities, dance, theatre, music, is incredible. Obviously, we all
:20:30. > :20:33.want to improve, we all want to have greater access ability to those
:20:34. > :20:41.things, but I think the noble Lord may be painting a rather too
:20:42. > :20:45.pessimistic picture. Making work pay is a very seductive slogan, but is
:20:46. > :20:51.the Minister not aware that many of the families who are worst off in
:20:52. > :20:55.our country have someone working in the gig economy. Can the Minister
:20:56. > :20:59.say what steps the Government can take to ensure people are paid
:21:00. > :21:06.properly and indeed earn at least a Living Wage? Well, it is a National
:21:07. > :21:12.Living Wage and it is an obligation and I am greatly is that it is going
:21:13. > :21:18.to rise to ?7.5 per hour in April. That is precisely why we want to
:21:19. > :21:23.ensure that people on low incomes, the increase in the tax allowance is
:21:24. > :21:30.precisely to ensure we are helping those at the lower end of the income
:21:31. > :21:38.range? My Lords, rural proofing doesn't seem to have reached local
:21:39. > :21:42.government, where many local services have withdrawn from
:21:43. > :21:48.villages into urban centres, as a consequence of the very deep cuts to
:21:49. > :21:56.local government funding. And I do wonder what advice the noble Lord,
:21:57. > :22:01.the Minister, would provide to his fellow Secretary of State or noble
:22:02. > :22:12.lord Lord born, about funding for district councils, to enable rural
:22:13. > :22:18.proofing? As I said, the rural proofing guidance is secured across
:22:19. > :22:22.Whitehall and of course ECL G is a very important government department
:22:23. > :22:27.in that respect. Clearly there are very considerable sums of money
:22:28. > :22:32.going to local authority. It is clearly for them to decide on the
:22:33. > :22:36.decision of the budget. I think this predicate something more important.
:22:37. > :22:41.We have to have a growing economy in order to afford all the things we
:22:42. > :22:44.want to do. That is why this country is the fastest-growing economy in
:22:45. > :22:49.the G7. That is important, because it is only when we grow our economy
:22:50. > :22:53.that we are going to have the resources to do many of the things
:22:54. > :22:59.your Lordships would wish to have done. Would the Minister care to
:23:00. > :23:05.correct his assertion about the National Living Wage, and the
:23:06. > :23:11.national minimum wage? And secondly, can the noble Lord, the Minister,
:23:12. > :23:16.assure me that when the Government are putting a new free schools, in
:23:17. > :23:24.areas where there is no need in terms of numbers, they will have the
:23:25. > :23:29.needs of the rural economy. I declare my interest as a former
:23:30. > :23:34.chair of Lancashire education authority, and because of history in
:23:35. > :23:38.Lancashire, we have the largest number of voluntary aided schools
:23:39. > :23:45.and people wanting diversity locally. The academic Catholic
:23:46. > :23:50.schools in the main across the county. Can the Government are sure
:23:51. > :23:56.that coming in from Whitehall with little knowledge and step over the
:23:57. > :24:00.needs of local communities, some of those schools need money and
:24:01. > :24:04.investment. My Lords, that is precisely why I suspect we will hear
:24:05. > :24:08.about more investment, because we will want to enhance the opportunity
:24:09. > :24:13.of children across the country. It is precisely why we have some
:24:14. > :24:16.schools that are simply not up to the standard we want them to be.
:24:17. > :24:21.That is why we will need to invest more, and it is why I am a champion
:24:22. > :24:25.of rural schools, precisely because we want to assure their
:24:26. > :24:32.opportunities in rural areas as across the rest of the country. As
:24:33. > :24:36.for the Living Wage, I will check Hansard but the National Living Wage
:24:37. > :24:43.will rise to ?7 50 per hour in April but I will ensure whether I have
:24:44. > :24:47.made a mistake. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the
:24:48. > :24:54.question, standing in my name on the order paper?
:24:55. > :24:58.My Lords, the police are operationally independent of
:24:59. > :25:03.government. The investigation of allegations of sexual abuse and how
:25:04. > :25:07.the police conduct these investigations, including whether to
:25:08. > :25:12.conduct any form of internal enquiry are matters for the chief officer.
:25:13. > :25:20.It is for the Police and Crime Commissioner to hold their forced to
:25:21. > :25:24.account. My Lords, having served in the Home Office for four years, I
:25:25. > :25:29.understand about the operational independence of the police. But my
:25:30. > :25:34.Lords, this matter has gone beyond operational affairs. It has become a
:25:35. > :25:42.matter of confidence in the police and the police service. The Chief
:25:43. > :25:45.Constable of Wiltshire has gone beyond the police duties of
:25:46. > :25:51.investigating allegations and following up evidence, and has
:25:52. > :25:56.pronounced a verdict of guilty on the late Sir Edward Heath in respect
:25:57. > :26:02.of allegations of child abuse, and has done that, even before his
:26:03. > :26:09.enquiry is complete. The officer in charge of enquiry, having made a
:26:10. > :26:13.stupid mistake at the beginning, has now been obliged to be withdrawn
:26:14. > :26:22.because of ill health. He is having I think a nervous breakdown. Is it
:26:23. > :26:27.not high time, the enquiry is being pursued in a way which looks to many
:26:28. > :26:32.people more like a fishing expedition than a serious pursuit of
:26:33. > :26:40.allegations and evidence. Is it not time that this operation is reviewed
:26:41. > :26:47.independently, either by a retired judge as in the case of operation
:26:48. > :26:53.Midland, or by a retired Chief Constable of recognised efficiency
:26:54. > :26:58.and integrity? My Lords, my first of all, without talking about any
:26:59. > :27:02.single investigation, may I express my profound sympathies with the
:27:03. > :27:07.family and friends of people who have been either wrongfully named in
:27:08. > :27:13.the press who have had, certainly after they have died, had to farmer
:27:14. > :27:23.treats statements made about them. But my Lords, I would say in any
:27:24. > :27:27.investigation, it is a matter for the police. In terms of
:27:28. > :27:35.investigations of complaints against a chief officer, I know that,
:27:36. > :27:40.because I took the bill through myself and the policing and crime
:27:41. > :27:44.act, that we strengthen the independence of the police complaint
:27:45. > :27:48.system and the accountability of Chief officers. And any allegations
:27:49. > :27:50.of misconduct against a chief officer should be investigated by
:27:51. > :28:01.the IPCC. The newspaper quotes came from an
:28:02. > :28:07.anonymous source claiming to know the...
:28:08. > :28:11.THE SPEAKER: Chair of the Sir Edward Heath charitable foundation and I
:28:12. > :28:16.would like to join my predecessor in that position in asking my Noble
:28:17. > :28:21.Friend the minister to whom is this Chief Constable accountable? If not
:28:22. > :28:27.the Police and Crime Commissioner for Wiltshire and Swindon, showerly
:28:28. > :28:33.not the secret and unnamed group of people that he himself has decided
:28:34. > :28:38.to appoint. There are increasing concerns about the conduct of this
:28:39. > :28:46.inquiry and we really need to know to whom is this Chief Constable
:28:47. > :28:50.accountable. Well, I thank my Noble Friend for that question and he will
:28:51. > :28:53.know that it's not for me to comment on individual operational matters,
:28:54. > :28:59.these being a matter for the relevant chief officer. But chief
:29:00. > :29:03.officers are, as I've said, held to account in respect of operational
:29:04. > :29:10.matters by their Police and Crime Commissioner. In line with
:29:11. > :29:13.recognised best practice, Wiltshire police also recently commissioned
:29:14. > :29:18.Operation Hydrant to undertake an independent review of the
:29:19. > :29:22.investigation to ensure its ongoing proportionality and investigation.
:29:23. > :29:28.He talked about the secret and unnamed group. My Lords, it's
:29:29. > :29:33.recognised as best practice and Wiltshire police have done that,
:29:34. > :29:36.they've engaged a panel of independent ex-pers outside of
:29:37. > :29:40.policing who're providing ongoing scrutiny of the investigation to
:29:41. > :29:43.ensure its proportionality and justification. The membership
:29:44. > :29:49.includes individuals from the legal profession and academics.
:29:50. > :29:52.The newspaper quotes last month came from an anonymous source, claiming
:29:53. > :29:55.to know the views of the Chief Constable for Wiltshire. This raises
:29:56. > :30:00.the issue of the relationship between the police and the national
:30:01. > :30:04.press and makes the case for Leveson part II even stronger.
:30:05. > :30:07.Can we come to the role of the Police and Crime Commissioner to
:30:08. > :30:14.which the noble lady the minister has refshed because a second issue
:30:15. > :30:18.relates to the call for a Government instituted inquiry. Could the
:30:19. > :30:21.Government confirm that in fact the Wiltshire Police and Crime
:30:22. > :30:26.Commissioner has the power to commission such a judicial inquiry
:30:27. > :30:31.into an operation by his own force? And the third issue is that if any
:30:32. > :30:36.hard evidence actually emerged that the Chief Constable had made the
:30:37. > :30:40.comments claimed by the anonymous newspaper source, then could the
:30:41. > :30:44.Government confirm that the Wiltshire Police and Crime
:30:45. > :30:47.Commissioner could under his powers suspend or dismiss the Chief
:30:48. > :30:51.Constable. In other words, isn't the ball very much in the elected
:30:52. > :30:56.Wiltshire Police and Crime Commissioner's court?
:30:57. > :31:02.Well, I think the noble Lord raises a very good point in terms of what
:31:03. > :31:07.is the role of the Police and Police and Crime Commissioner in this
:31:08. > :31:12.situation. Without talking about the specific case that the noble Lord,
:31:13. > :31:16.Lord Armstrong as asked about. It is for the police and the crime
:31:17. > :31:21.commissioner to make the decision to appoint, to suspend or to remove a
:31:22. > :31:27.Chief Constable in making the decision to compel a Chief Constable
:31:28. > :31:31.to resign or to retire, a PCC is bound by certain requirements
:31:32. > :31:36.including acting reasonably and fairly and consulting with the Chief
:31:37. > :31:42.Constable and the local police and crime panel. A PCC may compel a
:31:43. > :31:48.Chief Constable to resign or retire under section 38-3 of the police
:31:49. > :31:51.reform and social responsibility act of 2011.