:00:00. > :00:00.The following programme was recorded live, earlier today.
:00:00. > :00:00.Are beautiful women more likely to succeed?
:00:00. > :00:17.Hello and welcome to the BBC's 100 Women debates.
:00:18. > :00:22.We are live on BBC World News and BBC.com.
:00:23. > :00:30.The event we're holding is one of many debates.
:00:31. > :00:33.We have more than 150 groups in more than 50 countries, spanning the
:00:34. > :00:38.From Armenia to Chile to Uganda, they are discussing the same
:00:39. > :00:45.Women are gathering here in the capital.
:00:46. > :00:47.And here, the women of Kingston, Jamaica, who are staging
:00:48. > :00:53.All their thoughts and comments are coming to our hub
:00:54. > :01:02.The team are collecting the messages and photos and we would
:01:03. > :01:07.Send your thoughts and photos to pages on Facebook,
:01:08. > :01:10.Twitter, Instagram, using the hashtag 100 women.
:01:11. > :01:41.Are beautiful women more likely to succeed?
:01:42. > :01:43.Let's turn to our guest, Dr Catherine Hakim.
:01:44. > :01:50.It is not what I think, it is what research evidence shows.
:01:51. > :01:59.They are more likely to be remembered.
:02:00. > :02:01.People remember them in a positive way.
:02:02. > :02:12.In my book I show they earn between 10% and 20% more on average.
:02:13. > :02:19.But, unfortunately, evidence shows men earn more from being attractive.
:02:20. > :02:22.They earn on average 17% more, whereas women earn only 12% more.
:02:23. > :02:25.In my book I explore the reasons why women aren't exploiting their
:02:26. > :02:28.attractiveness in the same way men are exploiting their attractiveness.
:02:29. > :02:31.I also explore the reasons why it is more important in the 21st century
:02:32. > :02:44.I also show attractiveness, which is a combination of physical and social
:02:45. > :02:48.attractiveness leads people to be successful in life to
:02:49. > :02:52.So far we have always emphasised qualifications.
:02:53. > :02:59.Not only do you say scientific evidence supports it, you are saying
:03:00. > :03:03.we are not using it enough as women as a resource for our benefit.
:03:04. > :03:05.I would like to get the rest of the room to respond.
:03:06. > :03:08.Beautiful women, beautiful people are more successful.
:03:09. > :03:10.Scientific evidence says they earn more.
:03:11. > :03:21.Far from me to dispute any academic references.
:03:22. > :03:24.I work in the real world, with thousands of women through what
:03:25. > :03:29.And I would say our wit and wisdom should prevail.
:03:30. > :03:34.I think we are seeing more and more radiant, clever,
:03:35. > :03:36.--brilliant, intelligent women across platforms in politics, public
:03:37. > :03:45.I'd like to think whether there is evidence that proves this we are
:03:46. > :03:49.In the comedy world, it is not always the pretty boys who
:03:50. > :03:57.There is a well-known phrase that an ugly man can laugh a woman into bed.
:03:58. > :04:00.Why would it always matter about what you look like?
:04:01. > :04:09.Anita Corbin, you are a photographer.
:04:10. > :04:13.Beauty, as we look at it, is seen through the lens of the camera.
:04:14. > :04:17.I have been a photographer for over 35 years.
:04:18. > :04:19.I have been involved in photographing women and men.
:04:20. > :04:24.Towards my 50th birthday I thought I wanted to leave a legacy of images
:04:25. > :04:31.that would be an alternative to the mainstream image of women.
:04:32. > :04:34.I started to photograph my 100 women firsts.
:04:35. > :04:43.Women who have been first in their field in the last 50 years
:04:44. > :04:46.mainly, but over the last decade, I have been photographing and this
:04:47. > :04:58.She is a first woman to be world champion beatboxer. To me
:04:59. > :05:01.as a photographer I want to create a legacy of images of real women
:05:02. > :05:04.that young women and men can look at and say, how about this?
:05:05. > :05:08.When you say real women, are these two opposing concepts, real women,
:05:09. > :05:17.I think what we failed to define is what beauty is.
:05:18. > :05:19.If you look at how beauty is defined around the world,
:05:20. > :05:23.We would need more than half an hour.
:05:24. > :05:26.That tells me if beauty definitions differ geographically, it tells me
:05:27. > :05:34.It is my observation that women who feel beautiful regardless of
:05:35. > :05:36.their attractiveness or my judgment, women who feel beautiful feel more
:05:37. > :05:39.entitled to things, whether that is promotion, a pay rise, to be loved
:05:40. > :05:42.the right way in a relationship, it is all
:05:43. > :05:47.Is it entitlement or is it confidence?
:05:48. > :05:51.I have been a celebrity stylist and I wanted to touch
:05:52. > :05:54.on the real women thing, because I find it a difficult term.
:05:55. > :06:00.I have been involved in creating the fantasy woman, the woman in images,
:06:01. > :06:04.which I think we refer to as the not real woman versus us in real life.
:06:05. > :06:09.The women in images, while they are human, they are not real.
:06:10. > :06:13.There is a team to create this fantasy around them.
:06:14. > :06:16.Does that mean you were involved in distorting the image of beauty?
:06:17. > :06:25.I stopped because retouching got to a point where it was no longer
:06:26. > :06:28.creating a fantasy image, it was about creating a distorted view
:06:29. > :06:35.A narrow and blinkered view of what a woman should look like and I got
:06:36. > :06:46.There is a definite idea of what they should looked like
:06:47. > :06:49.Dr Linda Papadopoulos, interesting about the image
:06:50. > :06:54.You have a long experience in plastic surgery and that is what
:06:55. > :06:58.a lot of people go to to maintain that image or even to achieve
:06:59. > :07:05.It is interesting because if you look at the research around
:07:06. > :07:09.what is beautiful you are right, almost everything is socially
:07:10. > :07:14.constructed except for facial symmetry, which is something innate
:07:15. > :07:20.Everything else, the colour of my skin...
:07:21. > :07:27.We've spent billions of pounds tanning here, they spend
:07:28. > :07:29.billions in Asia making their skin whiter.
:07:30. > :07:32.How big your bottom how small your bottom is, how tall.
:07:33. > :07:34.The rest is socially constructed and it is across time, countries,
:07:35. > :07:38.What I do find interesting is your comment earlier about people
:07:39. > :07:41.While there is a lot of research that attests to that
:07:42. > :07:43.what is interesting is what that means
:07:44. > :07:51.One of the most telling surveys came at Pennsylvania.
:07:52. > :07:53.Where a study has shown tall men make
:07:54. > :07:59.What actually matters is not your height at 30, it is your height at
:08:00. > :08:02.16 that is most indicative of what you will make later because at 16,
:08:03. > :08:07.if I'm that tall kid at school I am doing better sport, probably going
:08:08. > :08:09.Suddenly I feel more competent and confident.
:08:10. > :08:11.While there are separate factors there is an interactional effect
:08:12. > :08:15.and for people I think this is one of the most significant things.
:08:16. > :08:17.Let me get Charli Howard into the conversation.
:08:18. > :08:30.Myself included, we all think we can be a model at some point.
:08:31. > :08:33.The reason I wanted to do this and many others I know is because I grew
:08:34. > :08:39.up with magazines, teenage fashion magazines, women fashion magazines
:08:40. > :08:44.and they told me that people like you in those magazines are the women
:08:45. > :08:47.I should want to aspire to look like. How did that affect your life?
:08:48. > :08:50.Did you find you were more successful in your career because
:08:51. > :08:56.I grew up also wishing I looked like the girls in magazines, the models.
:08:57. > :09:00.It was the size zero trend that was the highlight when I was younger.
:09:01. > :09:09.I have friends that are proof that because you are
:09:10. > :09:11.beautiful does not necessarily mean you are successful.
:09:12. > :09:13.There are billions, not billions, maybe hundreds of thousands
:09:14. > :09:21.Actresses, models, singers, but they do not do that well.
:09:22. > :09:25.I think it boils down to the line of work you go into.
:09:26. > :09:32.In terms of women not exploiting their beauty enough to get further
:09:33. > :09:38.ahead, I think it boils down to confidence and there are tons of
:09:39. > :09:41.women I know who are plain, average looking women, who are so confident
:09:42. > :09:48.Those are the women I aspire to be, certainly with age.
:09:49. > :09:52.Is it more about confidence than beauty?
:09:53. > :10:03.I would definitely say it is down to confidence.
:10:04. > :10:14.What is beautiful to you might not be beautiful to me.
:10:15. > :10:21.I have seen women that other women have said is beautiful and then she
:10:22. > :10:28.reacts in a certain way and she becomes ugly to me. Interesting you
:10:29. > :10:35.should make that point we have a tweet who says beautiful women are
:10:36. > :10:40.asked to show extra evidence of competence and intelligence and it
:10:41. > :10:47.means if you are beautiful, you are almost instantly seen as not very
:10:48. > :10:53.intelligent. You are a photographer? I am, and I have seen
:10:54. > :10:58.a lot of beautiful women. I would say people who stand in front of the
:10:59. > :11:04.camera, after they open their heart and soul and become natural, they
:11:05. > :11:09.started to be beautiful. It is more important than being confident, or
:11:10. > :11:13.probably even the same. Is it how the camera sees them? We hear the
:11:14. > :11:25.story the camera loves you, which means what? There is a proverb,
:11:26. > :11:30.beauty is in the eyes of the 1 who sees. Beauty is in the eye of the
:11:31. > :11:37.beholder. I was trying to translate from Ukrainian. Probably that is the
:11:38. > :11:41.answer. As an image maker, women's faces, we turn something from
:11:42. > :11:46.three-dimensional, and none of us see ourselves as 3D because we look
:11:47. > :11:52.at the mirror and 20 photograph someone you take something that is
:11:53. > :11:59.3D into two-dimensional. There are faces better looking in a camera. We
:12:00. > :12:04.do not get to see beauty and faces in magazines in 3D. You deal with a
:12:05. > :12:13.different... Not a different, aimed other kind of beauty. You are in the
:12:14. > :12:18.Muslim fashion industry. Modest fashion is what we promote. I am
:12:19. > :12:30.listening and unfortunately, in today's world, the media takes this
:12:31. > :12:36.make up, imagery. A lot of young women are on Instagram, social
:12:37. > :12:42.media, they say I want to be like that, false eyelashes, and you are
:12:43. > :12:50.right, a lot of it is orchestrated. For us, we are in the clothing
:12:51. > :12:55.industry. We try... Our aim is to give women confidence. It does not
:12:56. > :13:03.matter how skinny you are, how big, what you look like. If you dress
:13:04. > :13:08.well you look good. I have noticed in research, you will be happy to
:13:09. > :13:12.know I have done a lot of research on beauty blogging and fashion
:13:13. > :13:21.blogging and it is a whole world for young people. For example, in the
:13:22. > :13:26.modest fashion industry there are women who are extremely glamorous.
:13:27. > :13:30.As an average Muslim woman, you cannot possibly have your head down
:13:31. > :13:38.like that your headscarf in a certain way. It is also not
:13:39. > :13:42.attainable. Not at all. Just because you are Muslim does not mean you
:13:43. > :13:51.cannot dress up and look good. The younger generation today, they are
:13:52. > :13:57.happy within themselves to where the hijab. Just because you are covered
:13:58. > :14:01.does not mean you cannot look good. You have people blogging, they are
:14:02. > :14:09.all over Instagram. They are giving that confidence. How far you wish to
:14:10. > :14:15.go is an individual choice. Really, it is to give young girls
:14:16. > :14:19.confidence. Unfortunately, the media betrays that you are suppressed, you
:14:20. > :14:26.cannot wear what you want. It is not like that. It does not matter how
:14:27. > :14:33.you look, what religion you are, you can dress in a modest way and look
:14:34. > :14:42.good. You wanted to add something? I am not sure who said about make up.
:14:43. > :14:48.As a make-up artist, I think at this point things are changing. In my
:14:49. > :14:54.industry anyway, I do mostly brides and I'd tell them to send an image
:14:55. > :15:00.they do not like and they say I do not want to look photo shopped
:15:01. > :15:08.walking down the aisle. I want my husband to see, that is my wife. I
:15:09. > :15:11.am not sure what is going on but there has been a turnaround with the
:15:12. > :15:18.sort of women I have been meeting lately. I am keen to hear what the
:15:19. > :15:23.younger ones have to say. We are keen to hear from the students at
:15:24. > :15:28.the back. We heard about the fashion industry and image and also about
:15:29. > :15:35.image online. Who is on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook? Tell me
:15:36. > :15:44.how important it is for you to keep a certain image not just in real
:15:45. > :15:52.life but online? I am 15. I think it is important but also creating an
:15:53. > :15:56.image online can be extremely dangerous, you make yourself feel
:15:57. > :16:00.worse because you are not the person you are presenting, it is a false
:16:01. > :16:06.persona you cannot live up to. Do you feel under pressure to have that
:16:07. > :16:11.online persona? I do because anyone can see what you put online and see
:16:12. > :16:18.what you look like. I feel the pressure but I feel more myself,
:16:19. > :16:23.presenting myself. We have people from the fashion industry,
:16:24. > :16:30.photographers, stylists, do you take your cue from fashion magazines,
:16:31. > :16:37.from what you see on TV? I personally take my inspiration from
:16:38. > :16:42.social media, the way I dress, how other people dress in real life.
:16:43. > :16:47.People blogging. I think that is why they are so big at the minute,
:16:48. > :16:52.because they are not dressed up by other people, they are real and that
:16:53. > :16:59.is how they starve themselves. Many bloggers, they aren't given staff
:17:00. > :17:07.and work with stylists and make-up artist, so it is another layer of
:17:08. > :17:12.fakery, per -- perhaps not girls your rage but other beauty bloggers
:17:13. > :17:16.do. Before you go out do you feel you have to to wear make up, get
:17:17. > :17:26.your hair a certain way? Why is that? I think if you go out, and you
:17:27. > :17:30.have not done make up or how, sometimes people perceive that as
:17:31. > :17:34.you have not made an effort and you will be seen as lazy and people
:17:35. > :17:39.think you do not want to be there or something. Do you feel people react
:17:40. > :17:45.to you differently when you do not wear make up? If you go out and you
:17:46. > :17:49.have done your make up, you may get comments, oh, that looks nice,
:17:50. > :17:56.things like that. If you were to go at natural you would not receive
:17:57. > :18:01.comments. No attention? Nobody notices that, they only notice when
:18:02. > :18:07.you have done something. Then you think, if people are going to notice
:18:08. > :18:12.me... It is good to wear make up because that shows you up and you
:18:13. > :18:20.should be noticed for who you are as a real person. We can get somebody
:18:21. > :18:24.from Elle magazine and I am interested to hear what you say
:18:25. > :18:30.about the fashion industry and fashion magazines and what they have
:18:31. > :18:39.is to contribute. We have young girls who feel they have to look a
:18:40. > :18:45.certain way, to be a certain way to get attention, is that what you
:18:46. > :18:52.said? To get attention, to get a certain message? Is that what the
:18:53. > :19:00.beauty industry is telling us? I am sorry, she is not there. Anita
:19:01. > :19:04.Corbin, you have done both things. You have photographed beautiful,
:19:05. > :19:11.glamorous women and real women. I am a portrait photographer, but what
:19:12. > :19:19.you said is the beauty industry is a business and has two cell and image
:19:20. > :19:23.that we are supposed to aspire to. The girls over there look fantastic
:19:24. > :19:30.in their natural state, to me, but the pressures of society and anger
:19:31. > :19:35.seems and imagery around us all the time... There is an amazing
:19:36. > :19:40.statistic that more photographs have been taken in the past year than in
:19:41. > :19:47.the history of photography. Photographs or selfies? OK, images.
:19:48. > :19:53.We have two step outside of what is presented to us and create our own
:19:54. > :19:56.identity and be ourselves and as a photographer, what you say is
:19:57. > :20:00.right, when women are themselves and show their heart and soul, that is
:20:01. > :20:09.beautiful. I am keen to hear from everyone. Is it because we are
:20:10. > :20:14.taking so many pictures of ourselves we have this obsession with
:20:15. > :20:19.appearance? I started my career 30 years ago, longer actually, in
:20:20. > :20:24.women's magazines and we did not have these pressures. Now it has
:20:25. > :20:30.become crazy. I think we should concentrate more on what we have
:20:31. > :20:36.inside, how we can communicate. Try talking to each other. On that
:20:37. > :20:42.point, this has been a debate of what is on the inside and outside.
:20:43. > :20:47.What is on the outside has proven time and again that it works and
:20:48. > :20:54.gets you somewhere. I have done research where data has been
:20:55. > :21:03.collected on large national surveys where all they had available on
:21:04. > :21:13.and females was basically a photograph taken at the age of 18
:21:14. > :21:18.and we basically tracked how this rating... Six people, three men and
:21:19. > :21:23.women, who randomly rated these people for attractiveness and there
:21:24. > :21:29.was a high correspondence between the ratings, a correlation of 90%,
:21:30. > :21:33.say pretty much every rating was hitting the right spot. I think they
:21:34. > :21:44.had 11 rating points tracked the women and men's careers,
:21:45. > :21:48.you could see at every stage of their career, they would achieve on
:21:49. > :22:01.average higher occupational prestige. Holly. As with many
:22:02. > :22:05.things, it is a double edged sword. Society is obsessed with women's
:22:06. > :22:11.appearance and youth and beauty and perfection and then condemns us for
:22:12. > :22:17.being excessive and narcissistic for taking pictures of ourselves and
:22:18. > :22:22.making an effort. You cannot win. You have caught me on a resentful
:22:23. > :22:28.day. In August I was given a role advising the government and prior to
:22:29. > :22:32.that everybody was like, you are a maverick, you do not look like
:22:33. > :22:37.authority figures, that is great. As soon as I was given a position of
:22:38. > :22:40.authority, people found it hard to accept because I do not wear a suit
:22:41. > :22:43.and have a Margaret Thatcher haircut. It is also the image of
:22:44. > :22:58.authority. It is about things that contribute to success.
:22:59. > :23:02.Confidence is important, how you dress and present yourself is
:23:03. > :23:07.important, but in addition, attractiveness matters and the
:23:08. > :23:09.interesting thing, the point made more photographs have been taken in
:23:10. > :23:13.the past year than throughout history, throughout history most
:23:14. > :23:18.people were invisible, they were names at best, even the sons and
:23:19. > :23:24.daughters of kings were names. We did not see them. We see people on
:23:25. > :23:31.TV, Facebook in photographs, so we are more visible than before. And
:23:32. > :23:36.attractiveness matters more. It is not something we can argue about, it
:23:37. > :23:41.is a fact of life in the 21st century. I want to go back to the
:23:42. > :23:48.students. I am curious, now that everybody is on social media, how
:23:49. > :23:56.much time and money do you spend perfecting your image? Oh, God. I
:23:57. > :24:01.think before you go for a night out, if you want a good photo to put on
:24:02. > :24:06.there and show everyone how you look before you go out instead of as if
:24:07. > :24:09.you are going to school, when you would not care so much about your
:24:10. > :24:15.appearance because you are with people you know but on Instagram,
:24:16. > :24:21.other people can see it, it can come up on Instagrams of people you do
:24:22. > :24:27.not know. I spend some amount. I tried to make sure the person I am
:24:28. > :24:34.presenting on social media is who I am in real life because you have to
:24:35. > :24:38.be careful. Like you said, people will not know you in real life. You
:24:39. > :24:43.need to make sure what they are seeing is who you are. I will give
:24:44. > :24:49.the last word to you. You would rather want a positive feedback and
:24:50. > :24:55.positive image rather than a -1. I think that is why a lot of people
:24:56. > :25:00.are obsessed, we are not really obsessed, that is how we want to see
:25:01. > :25:05.other people and ourselves. Doctor Linda Papadopoulos, go ahead. The
:25:06. > :25:10.online world has a lot to answer for. We have an amplified
:25:11. > :25:17.self-awareness, we are like mini celebrities without a great wardrobe
:25:18. > :25:22.and limousine. The second thing is that because everyone can give their
:25:23. > :25:27.opinion, suddenly everyone's opinion matters. When I grew up it was not
:25:28. > :25:33.the case and because of that... And important, we are not just taking
:25:34. > :25:38.more photographs, we are editing them. That is an exercise in body
:25:39. > :25:48.image. You can see more on the website.
:25:49. > :25:49.Good evening the first day is the day if the meteorological