:00:00. > :00:18.significant art collections, not somewhere you'd expect
:00:19. > :00:20.a dramatic scene of political protest.
:00:21. > :00:23.But in April 1913, at the height of the campaign for women's
:00:24. > :00:25.suffrage, three suffragettes entered the gallery and began smashing
:00:26. > :00:27.the glass on some of the most valuable paintings
:00:28. > :00:33.Their aim was not to destroy the works, but to make a statement
:00:34. > :00:38.about the way women and their bodies were portrayed in art.
:00:39. > :00:42.This grand protest took place more than 100 years ago,
:00:43. > :00:46.but artists, actors, writers are still fighting
:00:47. > :00:54.As a museum director, I sometimes wonder if the suffragettes would be
:00:55. > :00:59.astonished about how much still needs to change.
:01:00. > :01:01.What I want to ask in this programme is why, in 2016,
:01:02. > :01:21.Glenda Jackson is one of Britain's greatest living actors.
:01:22. > :01:24.Out of only a handful to have won two Oscars,
:01:25. > :01:27.she gained a reputation for unconventional roles
:01:28. > :01:32.and remarkable diversity on both stage and screen.
:01:33. > :01:36.Well, I was born here and I'll die here until I fly away.
:01:37. > :01:39.Ever unpredictable, and despite an international film
:01:40. > :01:42.career, in 1992 she shocked the nation by abandoning acting
:01:43. > :01:56.birthday, she's returned to acting, year, and approaching her 80th
:01:57. > :01:59.of matriarch Didi in the BBC radio adaptation
:02:00. > :02:06.of Emile Zola's Rougon-Macquart family saga - to fantastic reviews.
:02:07. > :02:13.What does it feel like to be back in the arts fold?
:02:14. > :02:16.Well, it's interesting you say that because I'm somewhat dubious
:02:17. > :02:19.of saying I'm going back into acting because the first thing I did
:02:20. > :02:22.was for the radio, which is a medium that I absolutely love,
:02:23. > :02:25.but many of its attractions are - (a), you never have to learn your
:02:26. > :02:29.lines, you don't have to put makeup on and you don't have to be careful
:02:30. > :02:34.Can you imagine going back onto the stage again?
:02:35. > :02:42.I mean, if somebody said to me, you know, come next Friday
:02:43. > :02:45.and you'll be on on Monday, I don't think I could do eight performances.
:02:46. > :02:48.But if, yeah, I got myself physically fit I could,
:02:49. > :02:52.Well, you look like you could be that fit.
:02:53. > :03:02.In an acting career spanning over 30 years, Glenda worked with a series
:03:03. > :03:07.of notoriously challenging directors from Peter Brooke to Ken Russell,
:03:08. > :03:15.In 1971, she famously turned up on Morecambe Wise as Cleopatra,
:03:16. > :03:21.All men are fools and what makes them so is having beauty
:03:22. > :03:32.Gudrun in Ken Russell's, Women in Love, and Vicki Allessio
:03:33. > :03:34.in the romantic comedy, A Touch of Class, both
:03:35. > :03:43.Oh, no, I've had this place with you or without you.
:03:44. > :03:46.Although it means sitting on the same plane I am going home
:03:47. > :03:48.to my thin children with their straight teeth.
:03:49. > :03:51.Although most people probably recognise her as the inscrutable
:03:52. > :03:58.Queen Elizabeth in the 1970s series, Elizabeth R.
:03:59. > :04:19.You came to prominence many decades ago now.
:04:20. > :04:25.Could you talk to us a little bit about what it was like being a woman
:04:26. > :04:29.in the theatre in the 1950s and 1960s?
:04:30. > :04:34.Well, when I left drama school, when, God, yes, that's getting
:04:35. > :04:37.on for almost 60 years ago now, I was told by the then Director
:04:38. > :04:40.of the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, John Furnell,
:04:41. > :04:43.not to expect to work much before I was 40 because I was essentially
:04:44. > :04:47.And that was a very accurate estimate of English theatre
:04:48. > :04:56.If you're a man, in the theatre in this country, you can,
:04:57. > :04:59.by virtue of the classical canon, I'm thinking of Shakespeare here,
:05:00. > :05:04.go from being a young man at Hamlet to Lear or Prospero in old age
:05:05. > :05:11.and there is a role between those two extremes of age which is matched
:05:12. > :05:15.by Shakespeare which also matches a male development.
:05:16. > :05:21.There is absolutely no equivalent for women.
:05:22. > :05:23.Did you really self-consciously want to challenge that whole history
:05:24. > :05:32.I wish I could sit here and say yes, but honestly all I cared
:05:33. > :05:36.It didn't matter where the job came from, what it was.
:05:37. > :05:40.I mean, if you didn't work, you didn't eat.
:05:41. > :05:41.It's very simple, but I was particularly blessed,
:05:42. > :05:50.I vote Labour because I am a product of the welfare state.
:05:51. > :05:53.In the early 90s, Glenda turned her back on acting
:05:54. > :06:00.and embarked on a career where she would exercise her legendary
:06:01. > :06:02.passion and determination on a very different stage.
:06:03. > :06:04.Never before has the Labour Party been needed as much
:06:05. > :06:13.As Labour MP for Hampsted and Highgate, she deliberately
:06:14. > :06:15.avoided the so-called "softer" issues of arts and culture
:06:16. > :06:18.and fixed her formidable gaze on transport,
:06:19. > :06:24.So that move to politics, you leave acting.
:06:25. > :06:26.I mean, you had a terrifically successful career.
:06:27. > :06:29.What motivated that move into politics?
:06:30. > :06:33.Well, I had been doing stuff for the Labour Party of more public
:06:34. > :06:41.I mean, I've always been a Labour Party supporter,
:06:42. > :06:45.but it was anything I could have done that was legal that would have
:06:46. > :06:51.got Thatcher and Thatcherism out of Government I was prepared to do.
:06:52. > :06:53.So I never expected to be selected first time round,
:06:54. > :06:56.but I was amazed that I was and quite amazed
:06:57. > :06:59.So did you find any particular disadvantages coming into parliament
:07:00. > :07:05.Well, again, one of my kind of cliche things, somebody said -
:07:06. > :07:07."oh, you simply changed one form of theatre for another".
:07:08. > :07:16.I said, "if that's the case the House of Commons is remarkably
:07:17. > :07:18.under rehearsed, the lighting is awful and acoustic
:07:19. > :07:23.I was expected, by all those people who had been going to parliament
:07:24. > :07:28.for donkey's years, to either be so stupid that I would simply fall
:07:29. > :07:31.flat on my face, you know, I was an airhead, or that
:07:32. > :07:34.I was some kind of operatic diva who would expect specialist treatment.
:07:35. > :07:38.I mean, none of these people had ever been in a rehearsal room,
:07:39. > :07:51.Discipline, discipline, discipline. there and how disciplined it is.
:07:52. > :07:53.Glenda made one of her most notorious speeches during the House
:07:54. > :07:56.of Commons' tributes to Margaret Thatcher,
:07:57. > :07:58.when she came under fire for attacking a recently deceased
:07:59. > :08:03.But even more inflammatory was what she said about Thatcher
:08:04. > :08:13.To pay tribute to the first Prime Minister deputed by female
:08:14. > :08:18.gender, OK, but a woman, not on my terms. You yourself were a,
:08:19. > :08:20.at least the subject has a lot of debate
:08:21. > :08:32.As I said at that time, I was raised by women.
:08:33. > :08:47.And, their capacity for life, their acceptance at other people
:08:48. > :08:50.with flaws and all were, what were central and essential
:08:51. > :08:54.in defining what is in the kind of way the female aspect
:08:55. > :08:56.of being part - I mean, we've got both in us.
:08:57. > :09:02.But the women in my family, over generations, have been dealt
:09:03. > :09:05.a fairly harshly stacked deck of cards, but it seemed to me it
:09:06. > :09:08.didn't really matter what life threw at them,
:09:09. > :09:11.they met it with the grace and with humour and the sense that
:09:12. > :09:23.It's not something that is reserved only for a small group of people
:09:24. > :09:25.while the rest of us look on in envy.
:09:26. > :09:29.So looking at politics and at the theatre, why do you think
:09:30. > :09:33.there is still such inequality between the genders?
:09:34. > :09:40.I am shocked that creative male writers still find women so boring.
:09:41. > :09:45.We're still seen to be a mere adjunct to the central creative
:09:46. > :09:52.driving engine which is almost invariably a man.
:09:53. > :09:54.But the whole of our society is infected, inflicted with this
:09:55. > :09:57.inability to actually see women as being capable of being more
:09:58. > :10:12.Decider, I think. We are still, I think, regardless of where we work,
:10:13. > :10:16.regardless of what we do, a woman is still deep deemed to be
:10:17. > :10:21.representative of her whole gender. So if she's a failure, then we're
:10:22. > :10:25.all failures. However however, if she's a success, she's the exception
:10:26. > :10:32.that proves the rule. I don't know how you change that. Yeah. You are
:10:33. > :10:38.almost 80. Tell me what you think about our attitudes to older women?
:10:39. > :10:44.How women fair as they age? Oh, you don't have to be old to hit that. I
:10:45. > :10:49.mean, you're old certainly, oh, well before you're 40, I think, in film.
:10:50. > :10:55.And I think - That's horrific. That hasn't changed. I mean, that was
:10:56. > :11:00.exactly the same when I started. Which was, gosh, 70 years, no 60
:11:01. > :11:05.years now. That hasn't changed. I don't see any major change really
:11:06. > :11:10.within the theatre either. It's always a big, kind of, event, isn't
:11:11. > :11:17.it, if somebody writes about an elderly woman. You think, come on,
:11:18. > :11:23.you know... When I think of my grans, I mean, gosh - what they did.
:11:24. > :11:30.Over 60 years of insight, what changes have you noticed and what is
:11:31. > :11:37.it we still need to change? I can't think of any fundamental changes
:11:38. > :11:41.that have taken place that have transformed the creative and, you
:11:42. > :11:46.know, and going on about the writers again. There are very few and far
:11:47. > :11:52.between that actually see women as being interesting. Over a whole
:11:53. > :12:00.range of things that women do and I long to see that taking place. And,
:12:01. > :12:05.I don't see that it's happened. I see no inpassions that it is going
:12:06. > :12:09.to happen. I read that you felt that politics and acting were both about
:12:10. > :12:16.finding out the truth of what it means to be a human being. In terms
:12:17. > :12:22.of women's experience and women's lives, which do you feel has given
:12:23. > :12:28.you more insight? Curiously I think they're very similar in many ways.
:12:29. > :12:32.You know, if you look at the greatest for me would be say
:12:33. > :12:38.Shakespeare, all he ever, ever asks is - who are we? What are we? Why
:12:39. > :12:43.are we? They are the essential questions. That is what the best
:12:44. > :12:48.politics try to do. How do you create a functioning society in
:12:49. > :12:57.which the unique individuality of everybody within that society can be
:12:58. > :13:05.best served without precluding anyone else's? That is a big issue,
:13:06. > :13:07.but it is the question worth asking and it is something we should all be
:13:08. > :13:20.engaged in trying to answer. Thank you. Thank you.
:13:21. > :13:33.Sarah Lucas is probably best known as one of the Young British Artists
:13:34. > :13:36.with a reputation for provocative sexual sculpture.
:13:37. > :13:38.Now 53, she is increasingly being celebrated as one
:13:39. > :13:41.of our greatest contemporary artists.
:13:42. > :13:45.Last year she represented Great Britain at the Venice
:13:46. > :13:54.The exhibition, entitled - 'I Scream Daddio', included a series
:13:55. > :13:57.of casts made from the lower bodies of her eight best friends ?
:13:58. > :14:01.And in a typically Sarah Lucas twist ? each had a cigarette protruding
:14:02. > :14:10.Sarah rarely does television interviews, but for this programme
:14:11. > :14:14.she's agreed to chat to me with her long-term art dealer,
:14:15. > :14:19.gallerist Sadie Coles ? who was one of the muses..
:14:20. > :14:28.Which one were you? This one. It felt like honour in some way.
:14:29. > :14:31.It felt like an honour in some way because it was
:14:32. > :14:37.Yes, and I wanted to it to be friends.
:14:38. > :14:39.It was quite key to my ethos in general.
:14:40. > :14:41.That it is not just some anonymous model or something.
:14:42. > :14:43.Did you conceive it as an explicitly feminist show?
:14:44. > :14:45.I really had to rack my brains what I
:14:46. > :14:49.wanted it to be about and I cast my mind back to the me that is most
:14:50. > :14:55.known about, the tough feminist of the 90s or something,
:14:56. > :14:59.and I thought, how can I be really strong
:15:00. > :15:05.about this and feminist or feminine without being on my soapbox
:15:06. > :15:14.in a way, which I do not feel I am anymore?
:15:15. > :15:17.I wanted to make an uplifting show rather than a sort of moany
:15:18. > :15:22.I wanted art to be elevating, which it is.
:15:23. > :15:25.Even if it is a moany think it can be quite
:15:26. > :15:29.But I think your work is the least moany
:15:30. > :15:34.It has always been like that because it
:15:35. > :15:36.might be protesting about something but that is completely different
:15:37. > :15:53.I am not mad keen on hierarchies even though they seem
:15:54. > :16:05.In the early 1990s Sarah became famous for her
:16:06. > :16:08.baudy works which played around with the idea of sex and gender.
:16:09. > :16:09.Her controversial sculptures involved
:16:10. > :16:11.taking insulting terms for male and female genitalia and making
:16:12. > :16:19.ironic bodies out of melons, cucumbers, eggs and a kebab.
:16:20. > :16:22.In the 1996 documentary Two Melons and a
:16:23. > :16:25.Stinking Fish she explained what lay behind her playful use of sexual
:16:26. > :16:31.In the same way people use humour to be able to do something
:16:32. > :16:38.with things that are hurting them, humour is not about being nice
:16:39. > :16:43.or having a good laugh, it is about being able to cope
:16:44. > :16:49.with something that may be almost impossible to reconcile yourself to.
:16:50. > :16:52.Works like Two Fried Eggs and a Kebab, were you really
:16:53. > :16:56.consciously challenging how women's bodies
:16:57. > :17:01.It suddenly seemed for the first time that women
:17:02. > :17:07.actually had the most brilliant subjects to mess about with.
:17:08. > :17:12.I suddenly felt quite sorry for men for a while,
:17:13. > :17:18.It is one of the things that drew me to
:17:19. > :17:21.Sarah's work and desperately want to work with her.
:17:22. > :17:24.Her literally subverting the male gaze.
:17:25. > :17:28.That seemed to me to be so fresh and funny and unexpected.
:17:29. > :17:32.There were some early works where she photographed a man's body
:17:33. > :17:41.but completely subverting the conventions of a male artist
:17:42. > :17:44.photographing a woman's body that was so funny
:17:45. > :18:01.Was there a point where you felt that men who were your friends
:18:02. > :18:03.and you were working alongside were being treated differently
:18:04. > :18:11.There was a distinct thing of, both straight from degree show
:18:12. > :18:18.and also from frees, that a bunch of male artists
:18:19. > :18:19.were immediately courted by galleries.
:18:20. > :18:21.It was very disgruntling at the time.
:18:22. > :18:35.By 1992 Sarah was having solo exhibitions so it was quite
:18:36. > :18:50.Sarah lives and works in Suffolk and was recently the subject
:18:51. > :18:54.The film explores how Sarah's work has evolved and shows
:18:55. > :19:02.I came out of the Venice show with this immense sense of joy
:19:03. > :19:10.That seemed to me not a shift but kind of a confidence.
:19:11. > :19:15.I think Sarah got more ambitious, more empowered.
:19:16. > :19:24.There is something for me about your work which has always
:19:25. > :19:36.That is a really good kind of energy.
:19:37. > :19:49.It was fascinating to talk to Sarah and
:19:50. > :19:51.Sadie about the challenges still facing women artists but also
:19:52. > :19:55.pretty heartening to hear they feel there are changes afoot.
:19:56. > :19:58.I want to look at some of the ways in which
:19:59. > :20:01.a growing number of women collectors, curators and gallerists
:20:02. > :20:12.Italian collector Valeria Napoleone has been
:20:13. > :20:19.Here in her London home, which doubles as her gallery,
:20:20. > :20:23.there are works by contemporary artists from all over the world.
:20:24. > :20:26.This is no ordinary private collection.
:20:27. > :20:31.Out of nearly 200 works not one is by a man.
:20:32. > :20:34.There's something over the fireplace.
:20:35. > :20:38.Yes, this is my Mona Lisa and this is another artist I am very
:20:39. > :20:52.The first time I saw it was in New York and I told
:20:53. > :20:56.the galleries, if you do not sell it it is mine.
:20:57. > :20:58.I was wondering if you felt it is even
:20:59. > :21:02.possible to kind of recognise instantly that a work of art
:21:03. > :21:10.I have people coming up in my place and
:21:11. > :21:15.visiting this place and say, it does not look like by a woman artist.
:21:16. > :21:18.I always wonder, what does that mean?
:21:19. > :21:24.Are you expecting pans and kitchen tools?
:21:25. > :21:28.Why do you think we find ourselves still with less than 30%
:21:29. > :21:34.of the exhibitions in London in any year by women artists and only 10%
:21:35. > :21:40.of Tate's contemporary collection being by women artists?
:21:41. > :21:45.That is because the system has been always
:21:46. > :21:52.The biggest and largest museums in the world are mostly run by men.
:21:53. > :21:57.A lot is due also to the fact that the market, the art
:21:58. > :22:02.Women get pregnant and get married, have
:22:03. > :22:05.kids, they slow down their career, maybe sometimes they temporarily
:22:06. > :22:09.stop, and that does not agree with the market that wants fast
:22:10. > :22:29.The furniture moves around to make space for the artworks.
:22:30. > :22:40.This is 100% Stupid by Lily van der Stokker.
:22:41. > :22:44.She is someone who struggled at the beginning of her career to be
:22:45. > :22:47.taken seriously because of the nature of the way
:22:48. > :22:56.It is self reverential meaning I am 100% stupid as an artwork,
:22:57. > :23:00.or it can be referring to the public saying you are 100% stupid
:23:01. > :23:03.because you do not understand me, or just the plain
:23:04. > :23:10.idea of stupidity or intelligence, what it is.
:23:11. > :23:13.Things are changing, developing, in a great way.
:23:14. > :23:21.This resistance is difficult to break.
:23:22. > :23:24.Because there are powerful people resisting this.
:23:25. > :23:33.People want to keep things the way they are.
:23:34. > :23:35.Valeria has obviously been a powerful advocate for female
:23:36. > :23:39.artists but there is more than one way of rocking the male dominated
:23:40. > :23:46.The profile of prizes like the Turner has grown
:23:47. > :23:49.significantly over the past couple of decades.
:23:50. > :23:52.Although there has been a marked improvement in recent years
:23:53. > :23:58.it has only been won by a woman five times in its history.
:23:59. > :24:05.I am at the Whitechapel Gallery, home to the
:24:06. > :24:08.I suppose I have always been quite suspicious
:24:09. > :24:11.I believe that we should be challenging the behaviours
:24:12. > :24:14.and beliefs that marginalise women artists rather than separating them
:24:15. > :24:17.out, but for the sake of this programme I am happy
:24:18. > :24:26.Established in 2005 the prize for the winning
:24:27. > :24:29.artist is a six-month residency in Italy and crucially
:24:30. > :24:35.they are allowed to take their family with them.
:24:36. > :24:39.Whitechapel director Iwona Blazwick has chaired the Max Mara Prize
:24:40. > :24:42.judging panel for the past two years.
:24:43. > :24:46.I wanted to ask her why we really need a women only prize.
:24:47. > :24:49.For a lot of young women when they leave
:24:50. > :24:52.art school there is a kind of gap, a hiatus, where they have suddenly
:24:53. > :24:56.got to find the resources to find a studio.
:24:57. > :24:59.They need to get their work out into the world, they need
:25:00. > :25:03.time to produce work, and also as the biological clock
:25:04. > :25:08.ticks they maybe also think about maybe I need
:25:09. > :25:11.All of these different pressures come to bear.
:25:12. > :25:14.We thought it would be quite interesting to offer a prize that
:25:15. > :25:18.looks at that moment in an artist's career.
:25:19. > :25:24.Do you not see any dangers around the creation of girls only clubs?
:25:25. > :25:27.I do not believe there is such a thing as women's art.
:25:28. > :25:29.But I do believe that there are certain
:25:30. > :25:34.physical and social and economic conditions that we share
:25:35. > :25:36.which are mostly barriers and that those will
:25:37. > :25:41.in some way affect how women view the world.
:25:42. > :25:45.I think the women only shows can really be symbolic.
:25:46. > :25:48.What I would hope is that a young woman
:25:49. > :25:51.would encounter such an exhibition and think,
:25:52. > :25:54.I could be an artist, or this speaks to me,
:25:55. > :26:00.or I am not worthless, as many women are told in many many
:26:01. > :26:09.Hopefully it triggers a sense of agency.
:26:10. > :26:11.Here at the Whitechapel they are about to announce
:26:12. > :26:17.the winner of the Max Mara Prize 2016.
:26:18. > :26:23.Emma Hart impressed the judges with her proposal to spend
:26:24. > :26:25.the residency exploring the psychology of
:26:26. > :26:30.The work will then be shown here on a solo exhibition
:26:31. > :26:42.A key driving force in my work is to try
:26:43. > :26:49.and use clay and ceramics, which is a messy sexy dirty medium
:26:50. > :26:52.to squeeze more life out of images and speak more about real
:26:53. > :26:57.experiences and how things really feel rather than how they look.
:26:58. > :27:00.One of the things I am working with is
:27:01. > :27:03.the fact I am a woman and that brings about various challenges.
:27:04. > :27:10.I am very happy that there is a prize for women,
:27:11. > :27:13.and if it cannot fix things at least it gets us
:27:14. > :27:22.Despite my misgivings about women only
:27:23. > :27:26.initiatives there is no doubt that the Max Mara Prize is a really
:27:27. > :27:33.important way to support artists like Emma Hart.
:27:34. > :27:37.Maybe it is not the case of either challenging the mainstream
:27:38. > :27:40.or supporting women themselves, maybe we need to do both.
:27:41. > :27:44.As we celebrate the appointment of Frances Morris as the first
:27:45. > :27:48.female director of Tate Modern it is clear there is a cause for optimism.
:27:49. > :27:57.Even as we still have a really long way to go.
:27:58. > :28:14.I am going to leave you with a clip from former
:28:15. > :28:26.Max Mara Prize winner Laure Prouvost's film Swallow.
:28:27. > :29:03.xwl Good evening. The weekend's weather continues on a cold and
:29:04. > :29:04.wintry theme. There will be outbreaks of rain and sleet