0:00:02 > 0:00:07THIS PROGRAMME CONTAINS SOME STRONG LANGUAGE
0:00:07 > 0:00:0940 years ago, I was an out-of-place teenager
0:00:09 > 0:00:12inspired to move to Manhattan to join in the punk revolution.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18Musicians like Patti Smith and the Ramones
0:00:18 > 0:00:20redefined what it was to be a rock musician.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25But there was also a scene just as thrilling
0:00:25 > 0:00:26happening over the Atlantic.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Even though I was living in New York City in 1976,
0:00:31 > 0:00:33I was very curious about the punk rock bands
0:00:33 > 0:00:35I'd been hearing about in London at the time.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Bands like the Buzzcocks, X-Ray Spex and The Damned
0:00:39 > 0:00:40seemed very wild to me.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43As wild as the bands I was seeing at CBGB.
0:00:44 > 0:00:492016 marks the 40th anniversary of British punk
0:00:49 > 0:00:54and this revolutionary movement is now part of the heritage industry.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57But as an American, an outsider,
0:00:57 > 0:01:01I want to recapture what I found so fresh and dangerous about punk
0:01:01 > 0:01:04and what lessons we can learn from it today.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09I'm Thurston Moore. Welcome to my Artsnight.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23Looking at the most commercial bands of the punk era,
0:01:23 > 0:01:26it can seem like being a very male-dominated genre.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29But that's only part of the story.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34One of the most interesting things in punk music in 1976
0:01:34 > 0:01:36was the new voice women had.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38And one of the most exciting was Chrissie Hynde,
0:01:38 > 0:01:40a punk goddess if there ever was one.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42# Give it to me
0:01:42 > 0:01:45# Cos I gonna make you see
0:01:45 > 0:01:48# Cos nobody else here... #
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Chrissie enjoyed worldwide success throughout the '80s
0:01:51 > 0:01:54with her band The Pretenders.
0:01:54 > 0:01:55# So special... #
0:01:55 > 0:01:59But she had spent much of the years before this living in London
0:01:59 > 0:02:02and working with Vivienne Westwood and Malcolm McLaren
0:02:02 > 0:02:04in their shop Sex,
0:02:04 > 0:02:06hanging out with key players in the punk scene
0:02:06 > 0:02:09like Johnny Rotten and Mick Jones.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Did you even think at the time, "I want to be in a rock 'n' roll band"?
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Or are you just like, "I'm just here"?
0:02:16 > 0:02:18I loved rock 'n' roll and I wanted to be in a band
0:02:18 > 0:02:21and I wanted to play guitar in a band. But I didn't think I was...
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Well, I wasn't good enough to play in a band, I didn't think,
0:02:24 > 0:02:25until punk came along.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28And then everyone was pretty shit so, you know,
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I just kind of got in there while the going was bad.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33But when you're getting thrown into these situations,
0:02:33 > 0:02:36especially working at Vivienne and Malcolm's,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38and, like, are you going to be in this band, you know,
0:02:38 > 0:02:41with this guy who becomes Dave Vanian
0:02:41 > 0:02:44and this guy who, you know, becomes Captain Sensible?
0:02:44 > 0:02:47- Yeah, Malcolm tried to put me in different bands.- Yeah.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50I mean, did you think like, "Oh, this is my chance." Or did you...?
0:02:50 > 0:02:51I always thought it was my chance.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53And then I crapped out every time, you know?
0:02:53 > 0:02:55They all went off and got bands together without me.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Because I wasn't really good enough to be in The Damned
0:02:58 > 0:03:00as their only guitar player. They were a very musical band.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04I mean, the Pistols, I saw all their early shows.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06The Clash, I saw all their shows.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08And I'd been trying to get in a band with Mick.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10And then Paul Simonon came along and fucked that up.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13He saved me from being in a band with Mick.
0:03:13 > 0:03:14Well, how so?
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Because, again, they went off and...
0:03:16 > 0:03:18But, see, I didn't really fit in so much.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21They were, you know, made for each other.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23These people become, like, significant figures,
0:03:23 > 0:03:24like, in punk lore.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Yeah, they all fucking dumped me!
0:03:27 > 0:03:28- They all dump you, but... - Johnny Moped...
0:03:28 > 0:03:31I wasn't even good enough for Johnny Moped!
0:03:31 > 0:03:35But fair cop. They all did better without me, frankly, you know?
0:03:35 > 0:03:37But I got what I needed eventually.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39# You've dropped my hand
0:03:39 > 0:03:43# All my sorrow
0:03:43 > 0:03:44# All my blues... #
0:03:44 > 0:03:48Last September, Chrissie released her autobiography Reckless,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51which contained many of her intimate memories of the punk era.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Would you have married John? Would you have married Sid?
0:03:55 > 0:03:59Because in your book, you have this almost marriages thing...
0:03:59 > 0:04:01There wasn't romance. It wasn't about that.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03It wasn't boyfriend and girlfriend.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07Some of us were having our end away but, you know, it wasn't official
0:04:07 > 0:04:09and it wasn't, like, a romantic thing.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12- You know, I guess you would call it a squelching session.- Yeah.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14So, you know, and that was all it was.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16You know, you didn't put any more into it.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20Some people were getting it, but it wasn't what punk was about.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22And that was another thing that I think made it different
0:04:22 > 0:04:25from scenes that had gone previously.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29Previously, it had very much been overtly sexual, overtly romantic.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33And when punk came along, if anything, Malcolm and Viv
0:04:33 > 0:04:36were doing that bondage gear and...
0:04:36 > 0:04:39I mean, I didn't know what they were up to, you know?
0:04:39 > 0:04:41I mean, he was a bit pervy, Malcolm.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43I don't know what that was all about. None of us did.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45We didn't care. It just looked cool.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47You know, no-one was going to tie me up. I knew that much.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50- It was great.- Yeah.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53I've heard girls say there was sexism. I never encountered it.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Punk, in my estimation, the way I saw it
0:04:56 > 0:04:58was that it was all about non-discrimination.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01That's what characterised it to me.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07And so no-one would even mention if you were a girl or not.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09It just wouldn't be part of the thing.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12That's what I seem to recall, as well.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14Like, moving to New York City in '76,
0:05:14 > 0:05:18people were getting involved with music that was new,
0:05:18 > 0:05:21like the new bands that were happening at CBGB.
0:05:21 > 0:05:27In a way, the prime models dealing with it were women.
0:05:27 > 0:05:28And you didn't think it about it like,
0:05:28 > 0:05:30"Oh, women are taking over," or whatever.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33You just thought like, "Well, everybody is doing something cool."
0:05:33 > 0:05:36It doesn't matter what their gender was.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38In a way, it seemed like it was the first time there was a music scene
0:05:38 > 0:05:42that was, like, kind of informed by this, like, gender balance.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45Even though it was still mostly dudes doing it anyway.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48Well, it mostly is guys, because women just don't play rock guitar.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50I don't know why. But they don't.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53They're not into it so much, I guess.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58And I mean, I hear girls say, "Well, we weren't encouraged."
0:05:58 > 0:06:00But, you know, I don't think Jeff Beck's mother was saying,
0:06:00 > 0:06:02"Geoffrey, are you practising?"
0:06:02 > 0:06:05You know, I mean, either you love it and you can't hold yourself back
0:06:05 > 0:06:07or you're not bothered.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09And I think women just haven't been so interested.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12That's my observation over the last 50 years.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15But, you know, it's not a gender thing. Music transcends gender.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17And that's what I loved about it,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20because I was always kind of, I suppose,
0:06:20 > 0:06:22a natural tomboy and I always liked being around guys.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24I like guy things, you know?
0:06:24 > 0:06:27I guess, in my heart, I'm more of a guy than a girl.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30So I wanted to be in a band and play guitar,
0:06:30 > 0:06:33but I was very shy to be around guys because I was a girl.
0:06:33 > 0:06:34So that was a problem.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37I wouldn't have played in front of any of the guys in the art room
0:06:37 > 0:06:38when I was at school.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42I would have been too embarrassed by my primitive skills.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Did you think in '76, when a lot of these bands are forming -
0:06:45 > 0:06:48be it The Damned or The Clash of the Pistols or even The Slits...
0:06:48 > 0:06:51I mean, seeing these gigs at the time
0:06:51 > 0:06:53and being really sort of friendly
0:06:53 > 0:06:55and sort of right in the middle of it all,
0:06:55 > 0:06:57I mean, did you think there was a future?
0:06:57 > 0:06:58We weren't thinking about the future.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01The whole idea was there was no future. It was very Zen, actually.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Although they wouldn't have seen it in those terms.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07They were either the sons and daughters, like Sid was,
0:07:07 > 0:07:09of a sort of hippie mother
0:07:09 > 0:07:12or, you know, working-class kids.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16And it was very tribal and everyone was in it on the same...
0:07:16 > 0:07:19You know, they'd grown up with the same influences and...
0:07:19 > 0:07:21You know, I mean, these guys didn't even tune their guitars.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23You know, it was just...
0:07:23 > 0:07:25For me, it was just glorious and I just loved it.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31The history of punk is a much-contested tale,
0:07:31 > 0:07:33with rival factions over the years
0:07:33 > 0:07:37often scrambling to tell their side of the story.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40As punk historians have matured over the years,
0:07:40 > 0:07:42so has the telling of the story.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46Legendary film-maker Julien Temple has twice attempted to produce
0:07:46 > 0:07:50a definitive account of the Sex Pistols, 20 years apart.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57As a young 23-year-old devotee of the band,
0:07:57 > 0:08:01he witnessed first-hand the project to create the Sex Pistols' identity.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04Working closely with Malcolm McLaren,
0:08:04 > 0:08:08he documented their story in The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle,
0:08:08 > 0:08:11a riotous account of the band's rise and fall.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16- MALCOLM MCLAREN: - Terrorise, threaten and insult
0:08:16 > 0:08:18your own useless generation.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24The sense was in '76 that the pistols were...
0:08:26 > 0:08:29..demanding a space to say what they felt
0:08:29 > 0:08:32and said that, you know,
0:08:32 > 0:08:35if you wanted to do it, as well, you could just get up and do it.
0:08:35 > 0:08:40And you could articulate who you were through music.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44You know, The Rock 'n' Roll Swindle was this provocative idea
0:08:44 > 0:08:48of twisting what happened in order to incense the fans.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51I mean, it was a deliberate thing, trying to make things that were true
0:08:51 > 0:08:52seem fabulously untrue.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55And vice versa, you know?
0:08:56 > 0:08:59And it was probably, you know, a document of its time.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02So it was very brave and very...
0:09:02 > 0:09:05very challenging to have that worldwide fame
0:09:05 > 0:09:07and just throw it out of the window.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09And not necessarily what the band wanted to do,
0:09:09 > 0:09:11but what Malcolm wanted to do.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15The Swindle made the Pistols look dastardly
0:09:15 > 0:09:16and, to a degree, disreputable.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Temple actually recorded the band's journey to Rio
0:09:20 > 0:09:23to rock out with disgraced train robber Ronnie Biggs.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26# God save the Sex Pistols
0:09:26 > 0:09:28# They're a bunch of wholesome blokes
0:09:30 > 0:09:32# They just like wearing filthy clothes
0:09:32 > 0:09:35# And swapping filthy jokes... #
0:09:35 > 0:09:3720 years later,
0:09:37 > 0:09:41Malcolm had got to the point where it was like a mantra
0:09:41 > 0:09:44that the band were just puppets that he controlled
0:09:44 > 0:09:47and they had no thoughts of their own.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52And so The Filth And The Fury was really trying to correct that.
0:09:52 > 0:09:54- JOHNNY ROTTEN: - It was a monkey's tea party.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57What the fuck was the manager doing?
0:09:57 > 0:10:00The one that claimed that he was manipulating everything.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02And he created nothing.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05He was clueless at that point.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09When I first saw it, I remember, you know, I was a little taken aback.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11I was like, "This is completely fascinating
0:10:11 > 0:10:14"but there's no other bands in it."
0:10:14 > 0:10:17It was very much trying to tell the story of those guys,
0:10:17 > 0:10:20as I say, as a kind of counterbalance
0:10:20 > 0:10:22to what The Rock 'n' Roll Swindle had been,
0:10:22 > 0:10:23which kind of ignored who they were.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26But you've got to also understand there was a lot of rivalry.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30And, you know, you wouldn't get John talking about The Clash.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32He just wouldn't admit that they existed, basically.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34With that film, we wanted to try
0:10:34 > 0:10:38and get a kind of visceral return to '76, '77.
0:10:39 > 0:10:40Hence the silhouettes.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43You know, the kind of bank robber silhouette
0:10:43 > 0:10:45of guys on the run from something,
0:10:45 > 0:10:48so you didn't see, you know, ageing rock stars in armchair time.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51The audience was sitting in the cinema now,
0:10:51 > 0:10:57but on the screen you are in the white heat of that moment, you know?
0:10:57 > 0:11:00- JOHNNY ROTTEN:- I've lost my friend.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02I couldn't have changed it. I was too young.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06God, I wish I was smarter.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10You can look back on it and go, "I could have done something."
0:11:12 > 0:11:14He died, for fuck sake!
0:11:17 > 0:11:21And they just turned it into making money.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Ha-ha-ha-ha(!)
0:11:24 > 0:11:26How hilarious for them.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29Contextually, it's like I always think about, you know,
0:11:29 > 0:11:33the punk rock scene, be it in England or anywhere,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36it's this community of bands.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38And of course, the Pistols are sort of like the central band.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41They have to be. They are, you know?
0:11:41 > 0:11:43They're the ur-band, you know? The first one.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46And so it makes sense to me. But it was like...
0:11:46 > 0:11:50No, but they were more like rival warlords carving up Afghanistan.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53You know, Joe says, "Call me punk rock warlord.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57"I've got my, you know, sphere of influence." And John...
0:11:57 > 0:12:00It would be very funny if you saw them in the same space.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02You know, it would be insult.
0:12:02 > 0:12:06You know, Joe would call him Ronald McDonald, I remember.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10Which was very exciting.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12But I was filming The Clash at that time
0:12:12 > 0:12:13and Bernie Rhodes called me in
0:12:13 > 0:12:16after I'd been doing it for about three months saying,
0:12:16 > 0:12:18"You've got to choose - it's us or them. You can't film both."
0:12:18 > 0:12:21So it was like a bit of a camp thing? Yes, that's funny.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24So I couldn't carry on filming The Clash,
0:12:24 > 0:12:27because I'd filmed the Pistols, you know?
0:12:29 > 0:12:33Apart from punk bands, Temple's career has encompassed
0:12:33 > 0:12:37subjects as diverse as Glastonbury, the Romantic poets
0:12:37 > 0:12:39and a recent series of portraits of cities
0:12:39 > 0:12:42such as London, Detroit and Rio.
0:12:45 > 0:12:46I probably feel, you know,
0:12:46 > 0:12:49I want to do other things than make films about punk.
0:12:49 > 0:12:54But I do feel that my methodology as a film-maker,
0:12:54 > 0:13:00my kind of grammar, is still based in the punk way of approaching film.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04A lot of it came out of not having any money at the time.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07But being, you know, inspired by the fact
0:13:07 > 0:13:09you could rip things up
0:13:09 > 0:13:12and stick things back together in a different way,
0:13:12 > 0:13:14smash them together and see if you got a spark.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21The ethos of punk has informed many later cultural movements.
0:13:21 > 0:13:26But what was its immediate impact upon its early followers?
0:13:26 > 0:13:29For many, the first rush of punk came with its call of arms
0:13:29 > 0:13:33for fans to express themselves either in music or in print.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35I remember my own misspent youth
0:13:35 > 0:13:38stitching together and photocopying fanzines
0:13:38 > 0:13:40documenting the New York scene at the time.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45Through its DIY publications and self-released records,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48punk was a dress rehearsal for today,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50when anyone can instantly distribute their ideas
0:13:50 > 0:13:52at the touch of a button.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58Fanzines like Mark Perry's Sniffin' Glue
0:13:58 > 0:14:01started appearing in record shops around the country,
0:14:01 > 0:14:04eager to satisfy the needs of this new religion.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08The cult is called punk, the music punk rock.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12Basic rock music - raw, outrageous and crude.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Like their fan magazine Sniffin' Glue.
0:14:16 > 0:14:20In Glasgow, Tony Drayton set up a rival zine.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23So is this the first issue of Ripped And Torn you did in '76?
0:14:23 > 0:14:26That's the one, yeah. That's the first one. November '76.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28I was living in Glasgow
0:14:28 > 0:14:32and reading the music press and avidly following music
0:14:32 > 0:14:35and just started writing about this punk rock experience,
0:14:35 > 0:14:37the punk rock scene happening in London.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40And I thought, "This sounds like my kind of thing."
0:14:43 > 0:14:48Tony's first exposure to punk was an early Damned gig in 1976.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54The reality of seeing The Damned was better than I could have imagined.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56I thought, "I've got to do something,
0:14:56 > 0:14:57"have a creative reaction to this."
0:14:57 > 0:15:00I can't sing. I can't play guitar.
0:15:00 > 0:15:01All I could do was write.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03And Sniffin' Glue had come out
0:15:03 > 0:15:06and so I got hold of it, I thought, "This doesn't look very good."
0:15:06 > 0:15:08"There's just not much graphic style going on."
0:15:08 > 0:15:13And then, at The Damned gig, I met Mark and said to him,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15"Oh, can I write about... Can I write for Sniffin' Glue?"
0:15:15 > 0:15:17Because I used to love writing.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20And he said, "No. Go and do one yourself.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23"Go back to Glasgow and do your own fanzine."
0:15:23 > 0:15:25And I thought, "OK." So I put this together.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28Each of the Ripped And Torns, you had a chart.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30Which isn't so much your chart,
0:15:30 > 0:15:32but it's a chart from readers,
0:15:32 > 0:15:34- who would send in their favourite records.- That's right.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36We used to say,
0:15:36 > 0:15:39"Send in your top ten current favourite LPs and singles."
0:15:39 > 0:15:41- And I'd compile the chart.- Yeah.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43And we had "I Wanna Be You Boyfriend", Ramones number 1.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48- Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers second album number 1.- Wow.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51- Was much played on the radio at the time?- No.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54I think I put something in Ripped And Torn 1 here about the BBC.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57The BBC, did they have a clue?
0:15:57 > 0:15:59John Peel did a sort of punk night one night.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02He sort of played lots of stuff from CBGB, Max's Kansas City.
0:16:02 > 0:16:04That must have been pretty exciting to hear that.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08It was a whole two-hour show. I taped the whole show.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10And I almost kind of played that every day.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12"Punk and the BBC.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14"Is the Beeb going punk mad?
0:16:14 > 0:16:16"Apart from the very excellent
0:16:16 > 0:16:18"Mr John Peel session from The Vibrators,
0:16:18 > 0:16:22"he also plays most, if not all, of the new punk releases.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24"But a couple of days ago,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27"I heard Simon Bates playing We Vibrate by The Vibrators
0:16:27 > 0:16:29"on the 9am to 12 noon show.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31"Of course, he slagged it off.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34"But what can you expect from a straight DJ like him?
0:16:34 > 0:16:37"In the future, you never know,
0:16:37 > 0:16:40"punk rock getting its own show perhaps?"
0:16:40 > 0:16:43What do you think? 2016, 40 years later,
0:16:43 > 0:16:48you're actually on BBC TWO talking about 1976 punk rock.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50Unbelievable.
0:16:50 > 0:16:51You'd never have thought it.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54When I wrote that, I would never have thought it possible.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00But it wasn't just the fans
0:17:00 > 0:17:04who were embracing this do-it-yourself aesthetic.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06Bands became aware of the possibilities
0:17:06 > 0:17:08opened up by self-releasing records.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17With their irresistible melodies and ordinary boy image,
0:17:17 > 0:17:20the Buzzcocks were the definitive Manchester punk band.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23As an up-and-coming group,
0:17:23 > 0:17:25they took control of the means of production
0:17:25 > 0:17:28and established their own record label.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32The Buzzcocks recording Spiral Scratch,
0:17:32 > 0:17:37was it simply just a means of just wanting to make a record?
0:17:37 > 0:17:39Yes, it was about making a record.
0:17:39 > 0:17:44Because, I mean, it seemed a sort of esoteric process, you know?
0:17:44 > 0:17:46Only record companies could make records.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48But we found out that we could.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51We thought, "This is our one shot at doing this."
0:17:51 > 0:17:54So we booked some time in the studio
0:17:54 > 0:17:58and we went in just after Christmas of '76
0:17:58 > 0:18:01and recorded the four tracks.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05The studio didn't really know what was going on,
0:18:05 > 0:18:07because it was just noise to them.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09# You know me, I'm acting dumb
0:18:09 > 0:18:12# You know the scene, very humdrum
0:18:12 > 0:18:15# Boredom, boredom
0:18:16 > 0:18:18# Boredom... #
0:18:18 > 0:18:20Personally, I approached the whole punk thing
0:18:20 > 0:18:23as like we were trying to do the most uncommercial form of music.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26I mean, you were completely outside the mainstream
0:18:26 > 0:18:31and to do songs, you know, in the manner and the form that we did
0:18:31 > 0:18:34was not how you would sell records.
0:18:34 > 0:18:35So we were going for
0:18:35 > 0:18:38the most uncommercial form of music we could imagine.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41So the record comes out pretty quickly.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45You recorded it in Christmas '76 and it comes out in February '77.
0:18:45 > 0:18:47And how did you distribute the record?
0:18:47 > 0:18:49Were you just going to record stores with it?
0:18:49 > 0:18:51Well, the first time we got copies of it,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54I was going out to The Ranch Club
0:18:54 > 0:18:56and I had a box of them
0:18:56 > 0:18:59and I was trying to sell them to people at £1 each, you know?
0:18:59 > 0:19:03But then Virgin in Manchester, they took some.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06- And then also Rough Trade.- Right.
0:19:06 > 0:19:11And so, within a few weeks, they'd all gone.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15Given how quickly it was taken up,
0:19:15 > 0:19:18I've often wondered how punk first started here.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24This movement where the masses felt empowered for the first time
0:19:24 > 0:19:26didn't just exist in a vacuum.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30The myth that punk rock came into existence out of nothing
0:19:30 > 0:19:32is one I never bought.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35One man who knows more about the roots of punk rock than any other
0:19:35 > 0:19:38is counterculture chronicler Barry Miles.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41In the 1960s and '70s,
0:19:41 > 0:19:45Miles was a leading custodian of the underground scene in London.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48After starting the bookshop and gallery Indica
0:19:48 > 0:19:50with Paul McCartney in his early 20s,
0:19:50 > 0:19:53he became a doyen of the antiestablishment.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56What did the hippies make of punk?
0:19:58 > 0:20:01For people coming out of the underground scene in the '60s,
0:20:01 > 0:20:06the punk scene was the same type of energy and the same sensibility.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08They had more in common with hippies
0:20:08 > 0:20:10than they did with, as it were, the straights.
0:20:10 > 0:20:11So they still...
0:20:11 > 0:20:14They could relate very much to the punks.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16And in secret, as it were,
0:20:16 > 0:20:19most of the punks related very much to that whole hippie scene.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22But they had to say, you know, that they hated all the hippies
0:20:22 > 0:20:23and they hated love and peace.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26To me, they were really just hippies with short hair.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34In America, punk was really just sort of something
0:20:34 > 0:20:38that a few urban marginalised characters would know about
0:20:38 > 0:20:40living in New York and possibly LA.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42It was a very sort of big city thing.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44And the news didn't start spreading until later.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48But in London, it seems like everybody got wind of it.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51In Britain, because there were three weekly music papers
0:20:51 > 0:20:56that all had to find news to fill them, it spread very, very rapidly
0:20:56 > 0:20:59because this was perfect newspaper copy.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02And also the people working for the English music press,
0:21:02 > 0:21:05many of the main writers had come out of the underground press.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07So they could relate directly
0:21:07 > 0:21:10to the ideas that the punks were expressing.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15Living between New York and London
0:21:15 > 0:21:18gave Miles the opportunity to observe the growth of punk
0:21:18 > 0:21:20on both sides of the Atlantic.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23He even witnessed one of the stranger English influences
0:21:23 > 0:21:26on New York punks - the Ramones.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31In the early days, when the Beatles did a tour of Scotland
0:21:31 > 0:21:35and that was when McCartney decided to use the name Paul Ramone
0:21:35 > 0:21:37as his pseudonym.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40And then he later on used it in hotels and stuff.
0:21:40 > 0:21:41And Ramone came from...?
0:21:41 > 0:21:46Ramone, he took the name from a guy called Raymond Bessone.
0:21:46 > 0:21:52He's known to everyone, I think, as Mr Teasy-Weasy.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Mr Teasy-Weasy is a celebrity hairdresser,
0:21:55 > 0:21:57who had a show on the BBC.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00And he had a little moustache and slicked back hair.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02And it was a sort of joke on McCartney's part
0:22:02 > 0:22:04to take this guy's name.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06You know Raymond. And he became Ramone.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08Oh, yes, rather.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11In the end, the Ramones finished up with a name
0:22:11 > 0:22:13that was taken from a celebrity hairdresser off the BBC.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Did the Ramones ever realised that their name came...?
0:22:16 > 0:22:18They did, because I had a talk with Dee Dee once about that.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20You talked to Dee Dee about Teasy-Weasy?
0:22:20 > 0:22:22And he had apparently worked in a beauty salon
0:22:22 > 0:22:25and he was absolutely delighted to find out that their name
0:22:25 > 0:22:27came from a hairdresser.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30- So Tinsy-Wincy...- Teasy-Weasy.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32- Mr Teasy-Weasy.- Teasy-Weasy.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35Teasy-Weasy is the true progenitor of punk rock?
0:22:35 > 0:22:37He is indeed, yes.
0:22:38 > 0:22:39Cut!
0:22:40 > 0:22:4240 years after the birth of punk,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45many of its most innovative figures have passed on.
0:22:46 > 0:22:47Joe Strummer.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Malcolm McLaren.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51Ari Up.
0:22:51 > 0:22:52For my Artsnight,
0:22:52 > 0:22:55I wanted to revisit the legacy of another lost hero -
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Poly Styrene, the singer of X-Ray Spex.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Next month marks the fifth anniversary of her passing.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04I've always wondered how this young girl from South London
0:23:04 > 0:23:08found her voice, leading one of punk's pioneering bands.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11# I know you're antiseptic
0:23:11 > 0:23:16# Your deodorant smells nice... #
0:23:17 > 0:23:20In 1976, Poly was selling fashion accessories
0:23:20 > 0:23:23and second-hand clothes from a stall on the Kings Road.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28It was here that she met the other members of the band
0:23:28 > 0:23:33and they soon started gigging in the Man In The Moon pub next door.
0:23:33 > 0:23:37I met her daughter Celeste to find out where all of this happened.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41So, Celeste, it's a beautiful rainy day in London.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44- Where are we right now?- We are just coming up to the Kings Road.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46The World's End.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49And just over there is the old Man In The Moon pub.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53- So that's the Man In The Moon. The World's End is over here.- Yeah.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58So the stall that Poly had must have been in this building somewhere?
0:23:58 > 0:24:02Yeah, it would have been in one of these shops here.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07She actually sold second-hand clothes, kind of granny chic.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11And she would have worn a lot of the stuff that she was selling
0:24:11 > 0:24:14when she started performing.
0:24:14 > 0:24:15Do think these people have any idea
0:24:15 > 0:24:19of the history of what happened in this construct?
0:24:19 > 0:24:22I doubt it.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24- You could ask them. - Shall we bang on the window?
0:24:26 > 0:24:30It wasn't just clothes and music where Poly fashioned a new identity.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34She was also responsible for the band's punk designs and look.
0:24:37 > 0:24:42So, Celeste, we have this archive of your mother's work with X-Ray Spex.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44What exactly do we have here?
0:24:44 > 0:24:47So, yeah, we've got some original artwork.
0:24:47 > 0:24:53And here you can see a logo and it's one of the first ones that she did.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57So she would just do it by hand, like, with a felt-tip pen.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00And on this badge you can see,
0:25:00 > 0:25:03like, the first lot of merchandise would have had this logo.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05And she just did it all by hand
0:25:05 > 0:25:10and would, like, photocopy and it was very DIY.
0:25:10 > 0:25:11And these photographs?
0:25:11 > 0:25:15- Are these promotional photographs that were done of Poly?- Yes.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18This would have been around the time
0:25:18 > 0:25:22of Germfree Adolescence, single release.
0:25:22 > 0:25:26And then in this one, you have the helmet and the goggles.
0:25:26 > 0:25:31Because my mum got a lot of stuff from Army and Navy stores.
0:25:31 > 0:25:32And when she had the shop,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35she would sell bits like that, second-hand clothes.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38Can that be limper? Can we try just a bit more...
0:25:38 > 0:25:42- This helmet. Is that the helmet here that you brought?- Yeah.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44Here it is.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46- Oh, that's really cool.- Yeah.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48That's so iconic. When you see this in these photographs...
0:25:48 > 0:25:50It's great that you have this.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55Do you remember the first time you saw video footage of the band?
0:25:55 > 0:25:58Because I guess that wasn't something you would have seen
0:25:58 > 0:26:01until we had the technology to see it.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05- Yeah, I didn't see anything really until YouTube.- Yeah, right.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08I mean, a lot of us didn't really see anything until YouTube.
0:26:08 > 0:26:13Although, I saw the band in 1978 when they came over to New York
0:26:13 > 0:26:15and they played two nights at CBGB.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19And when your mom was singing Oh, Bondage! Up Yours!,
0:26:19 > 0:26:21she would sing, "Oh, bondage!"
0:26:21 > 0:26:24And then she would put the microphone in my face
0:26:24 > 0:26:26- and I knew the words.- Uh-huh.
0:26:26 > 0:26:27Like, I had the record.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29And so I knew what to say.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32And I yelled, "Up yours!"
0:26:32 > 0:26:35And I felt really kind of, like, scared in a certain way,
0:26:35 > 0:26:36because everybody was kind of looking at me.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39It was the first time I ever sang in a microphone,
0:26:39 > 0:26:41like, in any kind of context of rock 'n' roll.
0:26:41 > 0:26:46So that was my big debut, was, like, kind of with your mom.
0:26:46 > 0:26:47Wow.
0:26:47 > 0:26:50I don't suspect she would have remembered anything like that.
0:26:50 > 0:26:52But I'll always remember it.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56- I managed to get a bootleg copy of the night.- Really?
0:26:56 > 0:26:59Would you like to hear it?
0:26:59 > 0:27:01Yeah, I never knew it existed.
0:27:02 > 0:27:03Well, here we go...
0:27:03 > 0:27:06# Bind me tie me, chain me to the wall
0:27:06 > 0:27:09# I wanna be a slave to you all
0:27:09 > 0:27:12# Oh, bondage! Up yours!
0:27:13 > 0:27:14# Oh, bondage!
0:27:14 > 0:27:16# Up yours!
0:27:16 > 0:27:18# Oh, bondage! Up yours!
0:27:19 > 0:27:21# Oh, bondage! Up yours! #
0:27:21 > 0:27:23That's crazy.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26# Chain store, chain-smoke, I consume you all
0:27:26 > 0:27:29# Chain gang, chain mail I don't think at all
0:27:29 > 0:27:30# Oh, bondage!
0:27:30 > 0:27:31# Up yours!
0:27:32 > 0:27:34# Oh, bondage!
0:27:34 > 0:27:35# Up yours!
0:27:35 > 0:27:37# Oh, bondage! Up yours! #
0:27:37 > 0:27:40- Amazing.- How cool is that?
0:27:44 > 0:27:46I sang with your mom. That's...
0:27:46 > 0:27:49- amazing.- Yeah.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52That's the first time I ever sang. I wasn't even on stage.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55- You were just in the crowd. - Well, I was kind of on stage.- Yeah.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59No, she just chose me because I was right in front of her
0:27:59 > 0:28:01looking like this...
0:28:12 > 0:28:16And a very happy 40th birthday indeed to punk rock.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Oh, bondage! Up yours!
0:28:21 > 0:28:23That's it for my Artsnight.
0:28:23 > 0:28:25I leave you with this gem from the BBC archive
0:28:25 > 0:28:28with Derek Nimmo visiting the Sex shop.
0:28:28 > 0:28:29Goodbye.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31What's actually wrong with what I'm wearing?
0:28:31 > 0:28:34Mate, you look so bloody boring. I cannot believe it.
0:28:34 > 0:28:35I agree with you, yes.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40It's a question of how you feel. The point is to change yourself.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42But why? Why does one have to change oneself?
0:28:42 > 0:28:44- Because then you'll feel great. - Do you think?
0:28:44 > 0:28:46Well, I've heard what you guys like to see.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56- Do you like what I'm wearing? - You look funny.
0:28:56 > 0:28:58Where's your chain?
0:28:58 > 0:29:00- A chain? - You haven't got your chain.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02Oh, should I have a chain on?
0:29:02 > 0:29:05Yes, from your nose to your ear to finish off. Oh, yes.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07Phew... You're mad.
0:29:07 > 0:29:08Who's mad?
0:29:08 > 0:29:10- You.- Me, mad?- Yeah, look!