0:00:08 > 0:00:12"For years, I felt myself an exile from normality,
0:00:12 > 0:00:16"and now I feel myself one of those exiles from time.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20"The past is a foreign country,
0:00:20 > 0:00:22"but so is old age.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27"And as you enter it, you feel you're treading unknown territory,
0:00:27 > 0:00:29"leaving your own land behind."
0:00:36 > 0:00:38These are the words of one of the most extraordinary writers of the
0:00:38 > 0:00:4320th century who, this year, turns 90 years old.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Jan Morris has written some of my favourite books
0:00:46 > 0:00:48of the last five decades.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51Her volume on Venice inspired me to write and to travel
0:00:51 > 0:00:53and, even these days, when I go to a new destination,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55I often pick up one of her books
0:00:55 > 0:00:59just to really whet my appetite for the road.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Her life reads like a Boys' Own adventure.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09After serving as a World War II intelligence officer,
0:01:09 > 0:01:14Morris became one of the most celebrated journalists of the 1950s,
0:01:14 > 0:01:16and witnessed many of the events that defined the century.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24The Cuban Revolution, the Eichmann Trial, and the Suez Crisis.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28She was part of the team that climbed Everest for the first time
0:01:28 > 0:01:33in 1953 and, in the years since, she's become an acclaimed author,
0:01:33 > 0:01:38described by Alistair Cooke as the Flaubert of the jet-set age.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41But if you look at the spines of those early books,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44or the by-lines on those newspaper reports,
0:01:44 > 0:01:46you won't see the name Jan Morris.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49You'll see the name James.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51And that's because in 1972,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Jan Morris became one of the first public figures in this country to
0:01:54 > 0:01:56undergo gender reassignment.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00The publication of her account of the transition made her
0:02:00 > 0:02:03one of the most controversial writers of the day.
0:02:03 > 0:02:08"Jan Morris is still, to me, a man, who has eaten a great many pills."
0:02:10 > 0:02:13How can I answer that? What do you expect me to say?
0:02:15 > 0:02:18And now, as Jan Morris enters her tenth decade,
0:02:18 > 0:02:22I've travelled north to a house in a far-flung corner of Wales
0:02:22 > 0:02:26to pay homage to a remarkable woman and a remarkable life.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Having made a name for herself as a world traveller,
0:02:40 > 0:02:45Jan's home is here in Llanystumdwy, north-west Wales,
0:02:45 > 0:02:47snuggled away beyond Snowdonia.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51I've travelled a long way to get here today.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55Actually, I feel a bit nervous about just banging on the door,
0:02:55 > 0:02:57but I have met Jan before, once or twice,
0:02:57 > 0:03:00at sort of official functions, and actually she did contribute,
0:03:00 > 0:03:04rather generously, an introduction to the American version of my book,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06Around The World In 80 Days,
0:03:06 > 0:03:11but this is still going to be basically a fan-and-hero situation,
0:03:11 > 0:03:13so a bit of pressure.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23- A-ha!- Hello. - I know who you are.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26Well, I know who you are! This is wonderful to see you!
0:03:26 > 0:03:28- Yes, you too.- Thank you very, very much for...
0:03:28 > 0:03:31- For what? We haven't done anything yet.- Well, for letting me come here.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33- Oh, yes. Right.- Yeah. Yes, you know.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36- And being here!- And thank you for coming.- ..being here,
0:03:36 > 0:03:38and not in some far distant part of the world.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Glad to have caught you in, as they say.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45- Ah, I'm usually in now. Not like you!- Not travelling as much?
0:03:45 > 0:03:49No. I've got tired of taking my shoes off at airports...
0:03:49 > 0:03:53- Oh, yes.- ..and all that stuff. - Yes.- So what about you?
0:03:53 > 0:03:57- I love going places still, I love the new.- You're not as old as I am.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00- Well...- I've been doing it that much longer.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02- Wait.- OK!
0:04:02 > 0:04:05It's important to have a place to come back to, isn't it?
0:04:05 > 0:04:08Yes, it is. I've always liked to have one foot here.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10Because you've got to have that base from which you can then go...
0:04:10 > 0:04:14- Yes, you've got to have one foot somewhere, I think.- Yes. Yep.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17'Though she's a homebird,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20'her house is filled with mementos from a life of travelling.'
0:04:23 > 0:04:25I like this teapot very much.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28- Ah. Is that Japanese?- Chinese.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31'And, of course, there's the thousands of books,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33'many of them her own.'
0:04:33 > 0:04:35When you're here now, I mean,
0:04:35 > 0:04:39what do you like to do on a sort of ideal day?
0:04:39 > 0:04:42- Well, my ideal day is writing a book.- Ah.- Without question.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47- You are still writing, then? - Yes.
0:04:47 > 0:04:48And I read, of course.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52People come, you know. Visitors come, make television films.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55- Do they?- No. - We thought we were the only ones!
0:04:55 > 0:04:59'And there's Elizabeth, her partner of almost 70 years,
0:04:59 > 0:05:01'and mother to their four children.'
0:05:01 > 0:05:03We started but we couldn't find you, my love.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05I was out there!
0:05:07 > 0:05:10- Do you want a cup?- No, thank you. - Then I'll pour it.
0:05:10 > 0:05:15Jan's adventures around the world began when she landed her dream job
0:05:15 > 0:05:18as a foreign correspondent for The Times.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21- How old were you then?- 20-something? I don't know.- Yeah.
0:05:21 > 0:05:23Were you very ambitious as a journalist?
0:05:23 > 0:05:25Oh, I was, terribly. Yes, yes.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30In 1953, the 26-year-old James got a major career break.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33"The bearer of this letter, Mr James Humphrey Morris,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36"is attached to the British Mount Everest expedition and an accredited
0:05:36 > 0:05:37"correspondent of The Times."
0:05:37 > 0:05:39- There you are, there. - There, there, yes.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41SHE CHUCKLES
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Were you full of trepidation? What did you feel at the time?
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Quite a weight on your shoulders, the only journalist.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49Oh, I was badly ambitious, you know.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52- Yes, so...- I was delighted.- So there was no crisis of confidence there.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56- No, no.- You were the right person in the right place, yes.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58"From the special correspondent."
0:05:58 > 0:06:01The Times was anonymous in those days, of course.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Yes, but, I mean, an enormous amount of
0:06:03 > 0:06:06long, complex dispatches.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09- They were big stuff, weren't they? - Yeah, yeah.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11And every single aspect of the journey,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14from the use of open circuit oxygen, and then little-known
0:06:14 > 0:06:16passes explored and all that.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18DRAMATIC MUSIC
0:06:21 > 0:06:24In this riveting documentary of the expedition,
0:06:24 > 0:06:28we get a first-hand glimpse of the challenge Morris faced as part of
0:06:28 > 0:06:31the first successful team to climb Everest.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36This party includes the special correspondent of The Times.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40This is the first time he has ever been up a mountain.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42He will tell you how all this struck him.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Yes, struck him is the right phrase.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49The whole thing, you see, is just like a squashed meringue,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52only, of course, rather bigger, and men are just insects in it,
0:06:52 > 0:06:56very small insects lost in the cream and the crumble.
0:06:56 > 0:07:01A very dangerous meringue, too, full of crevasses.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03CRASH
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Look at that. That's rather nice.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08- Yes.- "It's a boy."
0:07:08 > 0:07:12During their weather broadcast, from the Everest expedition,
0:07:12 > 0:07:15"a message for Mr James Morris telling him that his wife gave birth
0:07:15 > 0:07:19- "to a son last night." That's wonderful, isn't it?- Yes.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21There was more joy to come.
0:07:21 > 0:07:25On the 29th of May, Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay
0:07:25 > 0:07:28became the first to successfully summit Mount Everest,
0:07:28 > 0:07:31all 29,000 feet.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34How high did you actually reach yourself?
0:07:34 > 0:07:35It gets higher every year.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38Really? Well, Everest does, we know that.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40- Oh, well, it does do, yes!- Yeah.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42Well, what is your current...? HE LAUGHS
0:07:42 > 0:07:45- Sort of 23,000.- 23,000 feet?
0:07:47 > 0:07:50It fell to Jan to make the hazardous descent
0:07:50 > 0:07:53to break the story to the rest of the world.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56It was getting dark,
0:07:56 > 0:07:58and we had to go down through the ice fall,
0:07:58 > 0:08:02which is still the most dangerous part of Everest, really.
0:08:02 > 0:08:03We stumbled down through the night.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06I was hopeless, I lost everything, I tripped over,
0:08:06 > 0:08:09I got tangled up in ropes and things.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12Did you ever fear that you might not get the story out,
0:08:12 > 0:08:15- or someone else would pick it up? - Yes, of course, yes. Oh, absolutely.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17- So you were driven by a sort of slight panic.- Yes.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21Oh, certainly, yes. All the same, there were moments on the journey
0:08:21 > 0:08:23down which really was rather exciting,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26though I say it myself, it really was.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29As it got dark, there was a moment when I said,
0:08:29 > 0:08:31"Well, to hell with this, I can't do this."
0:08:31 > 0:08:33I said, "You go on, I'm going to stay here."
0:08:33 > 0:08:36In which case, I would certainly have died, as a matter of fact.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39- And all he said was, "Don't be ridiculous."- Yes.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Really?! So you were on the verge of really giving up, almost, were you?
0:08:44 > 0:08:47- Yes, I...I was, really.- You must have been exhausted, overwhelmed.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49But I had a tug on the rope and I went on.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53I discovered that quite near Everest,
0:08:53 > 0:08:56there was an Indian army radio post,
0:08:56 > 0:08:59but I knew that if I allowed them to know what the message meant,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02- either we'd climbed Everest or we'd failed to climb Everest...- Yes.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05- ..it would get around the world in no time...- Leak out before...
0:09:05 > 0:09:08- ..and my scoop would be lost.- Yeah.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11And so the message that I did send was that.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15"Snow conditions bad stop advanced base abandoned yesterday stop
0:09:15 > 0:09:17"awaiting improvements stop all well."
0:09:17 > 0:09:20Oh, this is your code, meaning:
0:09:20 > 0:09:24Everest climbed, May 29, by Hillary and Tenzing.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27And did you...you devised the code?
0:09:27 > 0:09:30- Yes.- Very satisfying, very satisfying.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33- Yes. Everest conquered, in fact. - Yeah.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42The news reached London on Queen Elizabeth's Coronation Day,
0:09:42 > 0:09:44compounding the sense of national euphoria.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49Before the age of space travel,
0:09:49 > 0:09:53Everest was the Earth's final frontier of human endeavour.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58As the only remaining participant in the expedition,
0:09:58 > 0:10:03Jan has a uniquely personal record of the feat -
0:10:03 > 0:10:07a book that she brought to Everest and back.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10This was a history of the various attempts on Everest.
0:10:10 > 0:10:11- The story of Everest, yes. - Right, yeah.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14- And they all signed it, you see. - Oh, yes.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17- Is it all the expeditions? - That's right, Tenzing.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20- "James Morris of The Times, who owns the book."- Yes.
0:10:20 > 0:10:2320 years later, we had a reunion.
0:10:24 > 0:10:28- "Jan Morris, who still owns the book."- Who still owns the book!
0:10:28 > 0:10:29THEY LAUGH
0:10:29 > 0:10:33Yes, afterwards, when everybody had died except me, in actual fact.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37- Yes, well... - We still had a sort of reunion.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39This was attended chiefly by widows.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43- Right, OK. Yeah.- It was the 60th anniversary.- 60th anniversary.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46And here we are: "Jan Morris, who still owns the book."
0:10:48 > 0:10:51The next time, it'll be their sort of great-grandchildren
0:10:51 > 0:10:55and Jan Morris, who's still, still writing in the book!
0:10:57 > 0:11:01Everest opened all sorts of doors for me, and one of the big doors
0:11:01 > 0:11:05it opened was that I got a fellowship in America.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11And I'm sure I wouldn't have got that if I hadn't been on Everest,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14- which made me well-known.- It's hard to keep up with you, really...
0:11:14 > 0:11:17- Yes.- ..because you were racing through life then.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21You also were a presenter for BBC programmes like Panorama.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25You were one of their reporters.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27- Yes, odd things I did for them. - Yeah.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30And I went to Hiroshima to see what that was like after the bombing.
0:11:35 > 0:11:3713 years ago, on just such a morning as this,
0:11:37 > 0:11:39at just about this time in the morning,
0:11:39 > 0:11:43there occurred the first atomic bombing raid in the history of war
0:11:43 > 0:11:47and this bridge behind me in Hiroshima was its target.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49One gaunt ruin, only one,
0:11:49 > 0:11:53is deliberately left standing as a memorial to that moment.
0:11:56 > 0:12:01In 1961, as one of the most eminent journalists in the world,
0:12:01 > 0:12:06Jan was sent to Jerusalem to cover the trial of Adolf Eichmann,
0:12:06 > 0:12:10the man responsible for Hitler's extermination camps.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12It was broadcast around the world.
0:12:13 > 0:12:18"There he sits, between his policeman, unchanging, impassive,
0:12:18 > 0:12:20"characterless but unforgettable.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25"He never looks afraid, he never looks despairing,
0:12:25 > 0:12:29"he never gives the impression that he may throw himself screaming
0:12:29 > 0:12:33"against the glass walls of his cage or burst into tears
0:12:33 > 0:12:35"or even pluck our hearts
0:12:35 > 0:12:40"with the agonising old dilemmas of patriotism and loyalty."
0:12:43 > 0:12:46You met some...pretty extraordinary people.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48I mean...
0:12:48 > 0:12:53great names like Kim Philby, Eisenhower, Che Guevara.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56I mean, what were your impressions of these people?
0:12:56 > 0:12:58Were you starstruck?
0:12:58 > 0:13:00No, I wasn't really, I can't say I was.
0:13:00 > 0:13:01THEY LAUGH
0:13:01 > 0:13:02Che Guevara, let's...
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Che was a different matter because he wasn't a star then.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09- Oh.- It was soon after the revolution.
0:13:09 > 0:13:13Jan was dispatched to Cuba to cover the aftermath of the Communist
0:13:13 > 0:13:15uprising in the late 1950s.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19She found herself face-to-face with the leader of the rebels.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23- And he was, I think, the head of a bank, the local bank.- Yes.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26- The Bank of Cuba.- Oh, really? - And I interviewed him there.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28- Yeah.- And it was only later
0:13:28 > 0:13:31that I came to know that he was such a figure.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Young people used to... Do you remember?
0:13:34 > 0:13:37- They carried bags with Che Guevara on them.- Oh, yes.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41And I used to say, "Do you know, I've met Che Guevara",
0:13:41 > 0:13:43and they couldn't believe it!
0:13:43 > 0:13:45- But he was a bank manager. - Yes, quite!
0:13:45 > 0:13:48- Bad for his image. - Yes, bad for his image!
0:13:49 > 0:13:52Through the places she travelled to and the people she met,
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Jan developed her own distinctive outlook on the world.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00She brought these insights not just to far-flung corners of the globe,
0:14:00 > 0:14:02but also much closer to home.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06Why Ickham? Well, why not?
0:14:06 > 0:14:08It's a good place.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11We dedicate this little film,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14with affection but not, I hope, with slush,
0:14:14 > 0:14:17to all the inhabitants of the village,
0:14:17 > 0:14:20young and old, nice and nasty.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24And you also got to do some fairly wacky things.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28I've seen a little programme you did on a village in Kent.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32- Oh, yeah, I remember.- You interviewed the local people...- Yes.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36..about their, you know, beliefs and their morals and all that.
0:14:36 > 0:14:37- That's right.- It was rather bizarre.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40- It was rather revolutionary, as a matter of fact.- Yes!
0:14:40 > 0:14:42It was quite a small village called Ickham,
0:14:42 > 0:14:47and we decided we'd build a sort of tower of ladders and things,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50and we invited the entire population of the village
0:14:50 > 0:14:52to come to this place,
0:14:52 > 0:14:55and we filmed them at the foot of the tower,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58and then we could divide them. We'd take people who,
0:14:58 > 0:15:01I don't know, had origins in France and moved there,
0:15:01 > 0:15:04and people who had origins in Ireland, that sort of thing,
0:15:04 > 0:15:06instead of statistics.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10And at least one, like Mrs Holliday, has never been to London.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14I've never been to London and I don't want to,
0:15:14 > 0:15:16and I don't like Ickham either.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18- It's very...extremely inventive. - Yes!
0:15:18 > 0:15:21- A sort of mixture of It's A Knockout and Panorama.- Yes!
0:15:23 > 0:15:26Vivian, can I ask a question?
0:15:26 > 0:15:29Tell me, do you think there's any point in trying to keep Britain
0:15:29 > 0:15:32as a first-class power in the world?
0:15:32 > 0:15:35Yes, I do. I think that Britain has fought
0:15:35 > 0:15:38for her place in the world, and I think she should keep it
0:15:38 > 0:15:41so enemies don't take it away from her.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44How would you feel if your daughter married a black man?
0:15:44 > 0:15:46I would feel very annoyed.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49- Why?- I should say, "You married a black man?"
0:15:51 > 0:15:54"If you can't find an Englishman,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56"a nice Englishman to marry, stay single."
0:16:01 > 0:16:05Jan's journalistic career had taken her all over the world.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07At the start of the 1960s,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09she turned her attention to writing books
0:16:09 > 0:16:11about the cities she was visiting.
0:16:17 > 0:16:21These volumes of discovery were soon to eclipse her journalism,
0:16:21 > 0:16:25and were later complimented by acclaimed works of memoir,
0:16:25 > 0:16:27history and fiction.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34And what I like about your books, particularly,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37is that you tend to fall in love with places,
0:16:37 > 0:16:39you fall in love with cities like New York or...
0:16:39 > 0:16:44- Yes, I do.- ..Istanbul or Cairo. - ..and I feel I possess them, too.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I feel I've grabbed them for myself, awful cheek!
0:16:47 > 0:16:51Well, you know, your most notorious love affair and probably most
0:16:51 > 0:16:53successful was with Venice.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56- Yes.- I mean, how did that come about?
0:16:56 > 0:16:59- I have a melancholic streak in me, I like melancholy.- Ah, yes. Yes.
0:16:59 > 0:17:04And the first appeal of Venice to me was a melancholy one.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07And much of my book is, as a matter of fact, melancholy.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10At that time, of course, it was a dead city, really.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14It had been defeated in war, everything was closed,
0:17:14 > 0:17:16there was nothing much to do.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19- And it was half empty and dispirited.- Mm.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23And I liked it, I enjoyed that.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25I admired it, too.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27They were very nice people, the Venetians, you know,
0:17:27 > 0:17:29- even in sadness.- Mm.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34And that struck me greatly and has stayed with me ever since.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37I still think of Venice as a place of melancholy,
0:17:37 > 0:17:39when it is anything but now, isn't it?
0:17:39 > 0:17:42It's a place of constant joy.
0:17:42 > 0:17:47Well, you seem to be rather suspicious of constant joy.
0:17:47 > 0:17:48Yes!
0:17:58 > 0:18:01"It's very old, very grand and bent-backed.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06"Its towers survey the lagoon in crotchety splendour,
0:18:06 > 0:18:08"some leaning one way, some another.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15"There are glimpses of flags and fretted rooftops, marble pillars,
0:18:15 > 0:18:16"cavernous canals.
0:18:16 > 0:18:21"And incessant bustles of boats pass before the quays of the place.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24"A great white liner slips towards its port,
0:18:24 > 0:18:29"a multitude of tottering palaces, brooding and monstrous,
0:18:29 > 0:18:34"press towards the waterfront like so many invalid aristocrats
0:18:34 > 0:18:36"jostling for fresh air.
0:18:39 > 0:18:44"It's a nulled but gorgeous city, and as the boat approaches the last
0:18:44 > 0:18:49"church-crowned islands and a jet fighter screams splendidly
0:18:49 > 0:18:54"out of the sun, so the whole scene seems to shimmer
0:18:54 > 0:18:56"with pinkness, with age,
0:18:56 > 0:19:01"with self-satisfaction, with sadness, with delight.
0:19:01 > 0:19:06"The navigator stows away his charts and puts on a gay straw hat.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13"For he has reached that paragon among landfalls, Venice."
0:19:19 > 0:19:22It's one of those difficult things now that constantly comes up
0:19:22 > 0:19:24between tourism and travellers and all of that.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28I mean, you have written most beautifully and exquisitely
0:19:28 > 0:19:30about places and cities and all that.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33- Mm.- Do you see yourself as a travel writer or is that...?
0:19:33 > 0:19:36No, I've never thought of myself...
0:19:36 > 0:19:41I hate being thought a travel writer or called a travel writer at all
0:19:41 > 0:19:44because I don't write about journeys, you know. I never have.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48But do you think that travel writing itself is rather prescriptive,
0:19:48 > 0:19:51it's saying I'm just writing about travel, whereas, in fact,
0:19:51 > 0:19:54you're just writing about life and people and feelings...
0:19:54 > 0:19:57- Yes, it's the word...- ..wherever they are in the world?- Yes.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00It's the phrase that I dislike, of course - the travel writers.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04It implies that you're writing about movement and about travel.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07And I never have been, I'm not a great mover.
0:20:13 > 0:20:18Perhaps the most well-known journey Jan has made is a metaphorical one,
0:20:18 > 0:20:20the transition from male to female.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26Though she's often reluctant to dwell too long on this topic,
0:20:26 > 0:20:32she chronicled it with searing honesty in her 1974 autobiography,
0:20:32 > 0:20:34Conundrum.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38Although all your books are sort of about yourself,
0:20:38 > 0:20:40autobiographical, in a way,
0:20:40 > 0:20:46- the one classic acknowledged autobiography is Conundrum.- Mm.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47And, um...
0:20:49 > 0:20:51..tell me the story behind Conundrum
0:20:51 > 0:20:53and why you decided to write the book?
0:20:55 > 0:20:59Good lord. That's very hard to say.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03- The story behind it...- Well... - ..the story behind it is
0:21:03 > 0:21:06- untellable, it seems to me.- Mm.
0:21:06 > 0:21:10And I've never pretended to understand it.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13I've always said that it was something
0:21:13 > 0:21:16sort of spiritual and metaphysical in the feelings I had,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19that I had been born into the wrong body.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23That was it. I still don't know what it meant,
0:21:23 > 0:21:26why it happened to me,
0:21:26 > 0:21:30but I felt it so powerfully that I felt I had to do something about it.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33And you felt, because you're a writer,
0:21:33 > 0:21:35that you should write an account,
0:21:35 > 0:21:40your own view of it, because it's very clearly written and expressed -
0:21:40 > 0:21:43all your doubts, all your feelings are in there.
0:21:43 > 0:21:47Did you ever worry about writing an account of it?
0:21:47 > 0:21:50Well, I thought you were either keeping something secret
0:21:50 > 0:21:53which couldn't be kept secret anyway, you know,
0:21:53 > 0:21:57which was gradually seeping out into odd newspapers and stuff,
0:21:57 > 0:22:00I thought it was better to come out into the open and say what I felt
0:22:00 > 0:22:03- about it all.- Yeah.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06On the book's release, the public was shocked that such
0:22:06 > 0:22:09a well-known figure could undergo such a process.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13Jan was attacked in television shows of the day for revealing the truth.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Don't you think that it's extraordinarily arrogant to assume
0:22:16 > 0:22:21that merely by taking off your penis and having your external genitalia
0:22:21 > 0:22:23now similar to a woman,
0:22:23 > 0:22:27isn't it an extraordinary assumption that you really can say,
0:22:27 > 0:22:29"I am now a woman"?
0:22:30 > 0:22:32I haven't said that.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37What I've said is, I was a person who was born a male
0:22:37 > 0:22:40who felt herself to be of the feminine gender
0:22:40 > 0:22:43and who has so adjusted the body
0:22:43 > 0:22:47as to fit, as far as possible, with my inner spirit.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49You said, I think, at one point, you know,
0:22:49 > 0:22:54that during the transition period, that it was 50% miracle
0:22:54 > 0:22:59and 50%...um, a freak show.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02- Mm.- What were you meaning there?
0:23:02 > 0:23:05Was that just the way people saw what you were doing?
0:23:05 > 0:23:07Yes, yes, of course.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11It was a sort of... Well, it's different now, isn't it,
0:23:11 > 0:23:16it's so common nowadays, but in those days, it was sort of freakish,
0:23:16 > 0:23:20such a thing to happen all of a sudden, wasn't it?
0:23:20 > 0:23:25Are you ever able sufficiently to stand back and see yourself
0:23:25 > 0:23:28and see a tiny element of absurdity in it?
0:23:28 > 0:23:30No, I think it's beautiful.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35I can't think it's funny because I think it's a truth that has been
0:23:35 > 0:23:40revealed, and I think it's a magical thing that's happened to me, and to
0:23:40 > 0:23:44have such a happiness and fulfilment given to one halfway through life
0:23:44 > 0:23:46seems to be very unabsurd.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51And did that make you feel bitter at the time?
0:23:51 > 0:23:53No, no, I didn't, because nearly everybody I knew
0:23:53 > 0:23:56- was very kind about it, you know. - Yeah, yeah.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00I mean nowadays people are talking about transsexuals...
0:24:00 > 0:24:02- Now you can't get away from it! - THEY CHUCKLE
0:24:02 > 0:24:05Well, they've made a film recently, The Danish Girl.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07- Have you seen it?- I haven't, no,
0:24:07 > 0:24:11but the director said he'd been greatly influenced by
0:24:11 > 0:24:12- Conundrum.- Yes.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21"I got out of bed rather shakily, for the drug was beginning to work
0:24:21 > 0:24:25"and I went to say goodbye to myself in the mirror.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27"We would never meet again.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30"And I wanted to give that other self a long,
0:24:30 > 0:24:33"last look in the eye and a wink for luck.
0:24:35 > 0:24:41"As I did so, a street vendor outside played a delicate arpeggio
0:24:41 > 0:24:44"upon his flute, a very merry, gentle sound,
0:24:44 > 0:24:49"which he repeated over and over again in sweet diminuendo
0:24:49 > 0:24:50"down the street.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55" 'Flights of angels', I said to myself,
0:24:55 > 0:24:59"and so staggered back to my bed and oblivion."
0:25:07 > 0:25:10- That's me in Budapest.- Yes, yes.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15- You're looking very bonny. - Yes, I was.
0:25:15 > 0:25:19And Elizabeth, I mean, you've known Elizabeth both as a man and a woman,
0:25:19 > 0:25:22- you know, in your case. - Yes, well.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24And she was happy to be with all that?
0:25:24 > 0:25:25Yes, she just thought it was me.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27- She took it on board because it was you, it was all you.- Yes!
0:25:27 > 0:25:31- Quite. I didn't think it was very important.- Mm.
0:25:31 > 0:25:35- And she obviously felt... - Well, I'd done my duties anyway!
0:25:35 > 0:25:37Yes, you'd had your children.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40But she obviously felt you hadn't changed as much as people might
0:25:40 > 0:25:43- think you'd changed.- No.
0:25:43 > 0:25:44I feel exactly the same.
0:25:44 > 0:25:48Yes. Yeah. Was there ever a moment when Elizabeth thought,
0:25:48 > 0:25:51"Oh, well, you know, this is not going to work"?
0:25:51 > 0:25:53I wonder, I don't know.
0:25:53 > 0:25:56- She never said it to me.- She's never said it!- No!- In all those years!
0:25:56 > 0:25:58- She never actually talked about that.- Yes.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13You've had such an extraordinary life, Jan.
0:26:13 > 0:26:18I mean, some of it seems like a medieval morality play
0:26:18 > 0:26:19or a myth or whatever.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22- I mean... - Myth more than morality.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25Well, that's for you to tell!
0:26:25 > 0:26:29How do you, how do you sum it up in your own mind, if you like,
0:26:29 > 0:26:31when you look back on your life?
0:26:31 > 0:26:34- Or do you?- Yes, I do, as a matter of fact,
0:26:34 > 0:26:36because I've enjoyed this life very much,
0:26:36 > 0:26:39and I admire it as a matter of fact.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42I think it's been a very good and interesting life.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45And I've made a whole of it quite deliberately,
0:26:45 > 0:26:49and I've done all the books to be, all my books
0:26:49 > 0:26:53to make one big, long autobiography.
0:26:53 > 0:26:57So the whole thing, my life has been one whole self-centred
0:26:57 > 0:27:00exercise in self-satisfaction.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04- At least that's honest. - It is, isn't it?- That's wonderful.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06- So you have a sense of...- Yes. - ..this is what you wanted to do,
0:27:06 > 0:27:09- and you've...- I do.- ..mainly done it or you're still doing it.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12It happened beyond my control, so to speak,
0:27:12 > 0:27:16but I have tried to mould it into one whole.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23Nowhere has made its mark on Jan like the Italian city of Trieste,
0:27:23 > 0:27:26once part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
0:27:26 > 0:27:29which she first visited at the end of World War II.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Her 2001 meditation on the city is a masterpiece.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36I think you said at the time, and I wonder why,
0:27:36 > 0:27:39that Trieste And The Meaning Of Nowhere
0:27:39 > 0:27:44- was going to be your last book.- Yes. - That was it. What made you...
0:27:44 > 0:27:46decide it should be your last book?
0:27:46 > 0:27:50Well, partly because I, forgive me, but I think it's a very good book.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53- I think it's the best book I wrote. - I thoroughly agree.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56And I don't believe that I could do it as well again,
0:27:56 > 0:28:00and so I thought it was really time to stop doing it.
0:28:10 > 0:28:14"As for me, when my clock moves on for the last time,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16"the angel having returned to heaven,
0:28:16 > 0:28:21"the angler having packed it in for the night and gone to the pub,
0:28:21 > 0:28:23"I shall happily haunt the two places
0:28:23 > 0:28:26"that have most happily haunted me.
0:28:27 > 0:28:31"Most of the after time, I shall be wandering with my beloved along the
0:28:31 > 0:28:35"banks of the Dwyfor River in Wales,
0:28:35 > 0:28:37"but now and then you may find me
0:28:37 > 0:28:41"in a boat beneath the walls of Miramare,
0:28:41 > 0:28:43"watching the nightingales swarm."
0:28:49 > 0:28:51Come, I'll show you something interesting.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53It's all interesting.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55'Even as she approaches 90,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58'Jan isn't fazed by thoughts of the grave.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00'In fact, she's more prepared than most.'
0:29:00 > 0:29:03Well, how about that.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06"Here are two friends, Jan and Elizabeth Morris."
0:29:06 > 0:29:08Oh, that's beautiful.
0:29:08 > 0:29:09- Isn't that touching?- Yes.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12- I've got a little island in the river down here...- Have you?
0:29:12 > 0:29:15- Oh, right.- ..where my ashes, I suppose,
0:29:15 > 0:29:17- and Elizabeth's, too, are going to be scattered.- Yeah.
0:29:17 > 0:29:19And this will be on top of that.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22Ah. But you've got to wait till you both go, really.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24On the whole, I think you should, don't you?!
0:29:24 > 0:29:26HE LAUGHS
0:29:26 > 0:29:28You have meant so much to each other.
0:29:30 > 0:29:36Before I go, I have to ask Jan if there's any one thing she's learned
0:29:36 > 0:29:38from her incredible life.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42So what's the secret to having one life together?
0:29:42 > 0:29:45Kindness. Kindness, in my opinion.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48- It's the secret to all life's problems.- Kindness?- Yes.- Mm.
0:29:48 > 0:29:52To be kind. It's much easier to be kind than to be not kind.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Yes. Why do people find it so difficult?
0:29:55 > 0:29:58I don't know. For one thing, they think
0:29:58 > 0:30:01- love is more important than kindness.- Mm.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04- And love implies all sorts of demands.- Yes.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06Kindness isn't demanding at all.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08- There we are.- Yeah. There we are.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11- Kindness is inclusive and love is exclusive.- Yes.
0:30:11 > 0:30:13And here endeth the first and last lesson.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15HE LAUGHS
0:30:15 > 0:30:18- ..of the Book Of Jan! - Of the Book Of Jan!