0:00:09 > 0:00:11Thank you, all.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Well, good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15Welcome to the Edinburgh International Book Festival.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18My name is Stuart Kelly, I'm a writer and critic
0:00:18 > 0:00:21and former judge of the Man Booker Prize.
0:00:21 > 0:00:26And it is an absolute honour to be here with George RR Martin.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30Now, I've been asked by the festival to say that the tent
0:00:30 > 0:00:31is completely secure.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33Apparently, some people have been rather worried that the tent
0:00:33 > 0:00:35is flapping slightly. So...
0:00:35 > 0:00:37LAUGHTER
0:00:37 > 0:00:41If the winds of late summer blow, you will all be OK.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44As I say, it's an incredible honour to be here with George.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47He has been described as the American Tolkien,
0:00:47 > 0:00:49the Shakespeare of fantasy.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52A Song Of Ice And Fire is already longer...
0:00:52 > 0:00:53LAUGHTER
0:00:53 > 0:00:56..is already longer than Marcel Proust,
0:00:56 > 0:00:59and has...and has many more sword fights and dragons
0:00:59 > 0:01:02than A La Recherche Du Temps Perdu.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04We're going to have a chat together and then it's over to you.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07I'm going to leave lots of time for questions.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10I know we won't get through everyone, so my apologies in advance
0:01:10 > 0:01:11if your question isn't selected.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Please put your hands together for George RR Martin.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:01:25 > 0:01:26Let me...
0:01:26 > 0:01:30Let me say, about this issue of questions and assigning, two things.
0:01:30 > 0:01:35Um, first of all, I write the books.
0:01:35 > 0:01:36I know at a lot of events like this,
0:01:36 > 0:01:39I get a lot of questions about the TV show.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42Um, certainly, I have some connection with the TV show.
0:01:42 > 0:01:43I wrote one episode.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46But, really, the books are my thing, so I prefer more questions
0:01:46 > 0:01:51about the books and less about who we are casting for season five.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53Yeah, cos I heard it was going to be... No!
0:01:53 > 0:01:55LAUGHTER
0:01:55 > 0:01:59George, we're in Edinburgh and, reading the books, one thing
0:01:59 > 0:02:05which struck me was the number of Scottish historical references.
0:02:05 > 0:02:09I mean, you've talked before about the Wall and being at Hadrian's Wall
0:02:09 > 0:02:12and thinking about what strange creatures might live
0:02:12 > 0:02:14to the north of it. Well, here they are!
0:02:14 > 0:02:16LAUGHTER
0:02:16 > 0:02:20The Red Wedding is inspired in part by the Glencoe Massacre,
0:02:20 > 0:02:21and you've talked a bit about...
0:02:21 > 0:02:23- And the Black Dinner. - And the Black Dinner.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26I took the two of them and put those together, yeah.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29And, you know, you also have things such as...
0:02:29 > 0:02:32You know, you've talked about Walter Scott and the chivalric romance,
0:02:32 > 0:02:34about Nigel Tranter.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36Tell me a bit about your relationship with Scotland.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41Well, I don't know if I really have a relationship, perhaps a flirtation.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43LAUGHTER
0:02:43 > 0:02:48But, uh, I've...I've visited Scotland probably about a half-dozen times
0:02:48 > 0:02:49now over the years.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52The first time was in 1981.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55I know my dear friend and sometime collaborator,
0:02:55 > 0:02:59Lisa Tuttle, is here in the audience. There she is. And she, she...
0:02:59 > 0:03:01although actually a Texan,
0:03:01 > 0:03:06moved to England initially a number of years ago, in the late '70s.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09And in 1981, I visited her.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12And we travelled all over in England
0:03:12 > 0:03:15and then we went up to Scotland, driving.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18And we did hit Hadrian's Wall one day in 1981,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21which was ten years before I even started writing this.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24But we got there right at the end of the day.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27All the tour buses had left.
0:03:27 > 0:03:32Um, it was near sunset and we were climbing up on the wall just when
0:03:32 > 0:03:34everybody else was leaving. And I remember standing there,
0:03:34 > 0:03:38it was, like, October. It was a cold...cold day.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Not quite as cold and grey as this day is, in August!
0:03:41 > 0:03:43LAUGHTER
0:03:43 > 0:03:45But still pretty cold and grey.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49And I stood on that wall and...
0:03:49 > 0:03:52stared off into Scotland.
0:03:52 > 0:03:54Well, I guess it's not Scotland any more.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56It was Scotland once upon a time, but...
0:03:56 > 0:03:58- Scot-ish. - LAUGHING: Yes!
0:03:58 > 0:04:01And tried to think what it was like to be a Roman legionary from,
0:04:01 > 0:04:06you know, southern Italy or Greece or even North Africa,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09who had been posted there at the end of the world.
0:04:09 > 0:04:10And it was sort of a profound feeling -
0:04:10 > 0:04:12"I have to capture this in a book."
0:04:12 > 0:04:16But fantasy is always bigger, so when it came time to write the books,
0:04:16 > 0:04:23I made the Wall, you know, 100 times as high and much longer, and of...
0:04:23 > 0:04:25made it of ice. Which would be much cooler.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27LAUGHTER
0:04:27 > 0:04:29I personally think If Scotland does secede,
0:04:29 > 0:04:32the first thing you should do is build a gigantic wall of ice...
0:04:32 > 0:04:33LAUGHTER
0:04:33 > 0:04:35..between Scotland and England.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38It would be a great tourist attraction and...
0:04:38 > 0:04:42and then you could keep the English out, if you wanted!
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Um, but, yeah, you mentioned Nigel Tranter,
0:04:45 > 0:04:51and...I think it was on that same 1981 trip that I picked up
0:04:51 > 0:04:54a few of his novels and read them.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Unfortunately, I never met the man. I would have enjoyed that.
0:04:57 > 0:05:02I know he died a few years ago but continued to write well into his 90s.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07An amazing number of books covering every aspect of Scottish history,
0:05:07 > 0:05:11um, from the Dark Ages up through...
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Well, I don't know if he quite reached the present,
0:05:14 > 0:05:16- but he...he got pretty late. - Yeah.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18They all have very unfortunate endings,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22when the Scots lose and the heroes die horribly,
0:05:22 > 0:05:24but up until that point,
0:05:24 > 0:05:27they were all, you know, fascinating and engrossing books.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31And that's where I heard about the Black Dinner for the first time.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33That's where I heard about the Glencoe Massacre.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37And, you know, I read a lot of history and historical fiction,
0:05:37 > 0:05:41always, you know, with an eye of, "What can I pillage and use?"
0:05:41 > 0:05:45And there was certainly a tremendous amount there that...
0:05:45 > 0:05:47that could be used.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51My wife is always saying, when I'm reading a new history book,
0:05:51 > 0:05:53and, you know, I say, "You can't make this stuff up.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56"Look at what happened here," and, you know, in...
0:05:58 > 0:06:01..100 years ago, 1,000 years ago.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05Was there something particular about the sort of bloodthirstiness
0:06:05 > 0:06:08of much of Scottish history that you found particularly easy to
0:06:08 > 0:06:10sort of mould into a fictional form?
0:06:10 > 0:06:12HE LAUGHS
0:06:12 > 0:06:14You know, I-I...
0:06:16 > 0:06:18Scottish history is very bloody.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20But then so is most of history.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23I mean, what was different for me about Scottish history
0:06:23 > 0:06:27was that it's extensively chronicled and it is chronicled in English.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30You know? I've travelled...
0:06:30 > 0:06:35As a child and a young man, we were poor, we never went anywhere,
0:06:35 > 0:06:37so I had a very limited world.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42But I've travelled fairly extensively since the '80s, in my adult years,
0:06:42 > 0:06:44and I find myself in countries...
0:06:45 > 0:06:48..that have great histories, particularly medieval histories,
0:06:48 > 0:06:50which is my particular area of interest,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52but the books have never been translated into English.
0:06:52 > 0:06:57You know, so I'll be in Germany or Czechoslovakia or Romania
0:06:57 > 0:07:01and I'll see some great book about the medieval history of Romania.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03But it won't be in English,
0:07:03 > 0:07:05and I don't, unfortunately, read Romanian.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07So these things are denied me.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10But English history and Scottish history,
0:07:10 > 0:07:13to a lesser extent, French history, is, of course, very well chronicled
0:07:13 > 0:07:15and I have read a ton of it.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17I don't think it's particularly bloodier than
0:07:17 > 0:07:19some of these other areas of the world.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22It's just I have more access to it.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24History, particularly medieval history,
0:07:24 > 0:07:29is really written in blood, as I've said more than once. We've...
0:07:29 > 0:07:32We've done some appalling things down through the centuries
0:07:32 > 0:07:37to each other, and as bloody and terrible as our modern times are,
0:07:37 > 0:07:39I do think, if you look at it...
0:07:39 > 0:07:44If we take the long view and go all the way back to the ancient times,
0:07:44 > 0:07:48there is some moral evolution going on.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50The human race is making progress.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54It may be painfully slow, so in the individual human lifetime,
0:07:54 > 0:07:58you don't necessarily see the progress that you would like,
0:07:58 > 0:08:01but in the long view, you can... it's pretty discernible.
0:08:01 > 0:08:03I'd like to talk a little bit about the evolution
0:08:03 > 0:08:05and progress of your own work. That...
0:08:05 > 0:08:10Looking at the work from before A Song Of Ice And Fire,
0:08:10 > 0:08:14it struck me that there were certain kinds of themes and concerns
0:08:14 > 0:08:17and images which are coalescing
0:08:17 > 0:08:20and crystallising in the books you're writing now.
0:08:20 > 0:08:25Whether it was the story about the alien sect canonising Judas
0:08:25 > 0:08:30and Judas having access to dragons, giving him power in that area,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34or the dying of the light with the planet going into this cold
0:08:34 > 0:08:38interstellar space and the 13 very distinct cultures that evolved on it,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41or had visited it and took time there.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43Or even something like Sandkings,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46which I thought was absolutely masterful in the way in which
0:08:46 > 0:08:50a grand conspiracy to cause economic damage and create warfare...
0:08:50 > 0:08:53And I started thinking, you know, if fans were to read through
0:08:53 > 0:08:57your work before A Song Of Ice And Fire, do you think
0:08:57 > 0:09:00there would be hints about the ultimate direction of that series?
0:09:03 > 0:09:06I don't know, but I certainly encourage people to try.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08LAUGHTER
0:09:11 > 0:09:13You know, I have a...
0:09:13 > 0:09:18I do have quite a long body of work that predates Ice And Fire.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22I started writing Game Of Thrones in 1991,
0:09:22 > 0:09:24but I sold my first story in 1971.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28So there are 20 years of other books - science fiction, horror,
0:09:28 > 0:09:32occasional fantasy, short story - that predate Ice And Fire.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34But I am startled by the fact...
0:09:34 > 0:09:36I swear, at least half my readers think
0:09:36 > 0:09:39that I came out of nowhere with A Song Of Ice And Fire
0:09:39 > 0:09:42and they know nothing of the other work.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45So I'm always trying to encourage people to read the other work.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Um, you know, I don't tend to think of...
0:09:50 > 0:09:51..precursors or themes.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54I mean, when I focus, I'm just telling one individual story,
0:09:54 > 0:09:56and that's the story I want to tell.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00But, certainly, there are periods of your life where you are...
0:10:01 > 0:10:04..you're obsessed with certain...
0:10:04 > 0:10:06things that have affected you, that you're thinking about
0:10:06 > 0:10:08at that stage of your life.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11And, again, if you take the long view, you can
0:10:11 > 0:10:17see my early work in the '70s was predominantly science fiction.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21It was, I think, a particularly romantic blend of science fiction.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27In the early '80s, I started writing some horror stories.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30Um, that, again, was probably Lisa's fault.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33I visited her down in Texas while we were working on Windhaven,
0:10:33 > 0:10:35and she was writing all these horror stories.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39And I read them while... while I was hanging around her house
0:10:39 > 0:10:41and said, "Ah, I can do some of this too." And I did.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43And then I started mixing and matching,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46which I always thought was interesting. I like to...
0:10:47 > 0:10:52I like to break the rules. And you can certainly see that in my fantasy,
0:10:52 > 0:10:57but you could also see it in some of these earlier works I did,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00like Sandkings, which is a science fiction story,
0:11:00 > 0:11:02but it's also a horror story.
0:11:02 > 0:11:03Nightflyers, same thing.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06You know, I was reading a lot of critical studies by then
0:11:06 > 0:11:08by people who were...
0:11:08 > 0:11:10Horror was becoming very popular in the '80s
0:11:10 > 0:11:12and science fiction was waning a little.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15And there were some critics pontificating about,
0:11:15 > 0:11:17"Oh, these are two very different genres cos, you know,
0:11:17 > 0:11:20"science fiction represents the intellect
0:11:20 > 0:11:23"and the knowable universe and horror represents a universe,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26"an inimicable universe, beyond our control."
0:11:26 > 0:11:30So the two can never mix cos they are polar opposites.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33So I promptly said, "Ha! I'll show him!
0:11:33 > 0:11:36"I'll mix them up and come up with something that's both a good
0:11:36 > 0:11:39"science fiction story and a good horror story."
0:11:39 > 0:11:41So, I'm... I always have that sort of impulse
0:11:41 > 0:11:45to try to do things that they say can't be done.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48That's interesting in terms of breaking rules,
0:11:48 > 0:11:52because it strikes me that one thing about fantasy is, in a genre where
0:11:52 > 0:11:56anything can happen, you have to make quite strict rules for yourself.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Um, when you first started Ice And Fire,
0:11:59 > 0:12:01were there certain rules that you thought,
0:12:01 > 0:12:05"These will be absolutely rigid throughout the series,
0:12:05 > 0:12:10"that magic is waning, that the politics has to be comprehensible?"
0:12:12 > 0:12:13Well, I-I...
0:12:15 > 0:12:18In some sense, you're always in dialogue
0:12:18 > 0:12:20with the writers who go before you.
0:12:20 > 0:12:25And, you know, in my case, people have called me the American Tolkien.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28They've cited this thing, and Tolkien, of course,
0:12:28 > 0:12:29was an enormous influence on me.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32It's still a book that I revere, Lord Of The Rings.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34I reread it every few years.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36I first read it when I was 12 or 13 years old.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39It had an enormous effect on me. Um...
0:12:41 > 0:12:43So, in some sense, when I started this,
0:12:43 > 0:12:46I was replying to Tolkien, but even more so, I think
0:12:46 > 0:12:50I was replying to the Tolkien imitators who had followed him.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54You know, I think modern genre fantasy... Fantasy, of course,
0:12:54 > 0:12:57goes all the way back to as long as literature existed.
0:12:57 > 0:12:58- I mean, you can... - Absolutely.
0:12:58 > 0:13:04The Iliad, The Odyssey, Epic Of Gilgamesh, all fantasies.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07But modern fantasy really begins with Tolkien,
0:13:07 > 0:13:11the secondary-world fantasy that he made so popular.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15And that was followed in the '70s and '80s
0:13:15 > 0:13:18by a legion of Tolkien imitators who...
0:13:18 > 0:13:20to my mind...
0:13:22 > 0:13:26..took a lot of the elements that Tolkien used but cheapened them.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30And didn't really think about them. And I...
0:13:30 > 0:13:33There was this hunger for more stuff like Tolkien, I think,
0:13:33 > 0:13:38on the part of the audience, but they were being sold...
0:13:38 > 0:13:40you know, degraded goods here.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44And I... Reading them, at least, glancing at some of them...
0:13:46 > 0:13:50..the thought of, "No, this is not how it should be done.
0:13:50 > 0:13:55"This is all wrong," you know, fastened itself in my head.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57There was the Disneyland Middle Ages,
0:13:57 > 0:14:01as I've referred to in some other talks I've given,
0:14:01 > 0:14:05where the writers were taking the whole structure of medieval
0:14:05 > 0:14:10times with castles and knights and princesses and all that,
0:14:10 > 0:14:15but they were writing it from a very modern, 20th-century American
0:14:15 > 0:14:18or perhaps British point of view.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23And...it was more like a Renaissance fair than actual medieval times
0:14:23 > 0:14:27and if you read somebody like Nigel Tranter
0:14:27 > 0:14:30or...or Thomas B Costain,
0:14:30 > 0:14:33another great historical novelist,
0:14:33 > 0:14:37even the classics, like Sir Walter Scott,
0:14:37 > 0:14:42you get a much more feel for what the Middle Ages actually was
0:14:42 > 0:14:44than the Disneyland thing,
0:14:44 > 0:14:49so I wanted to combine, just as I had combined science fiction and horror
0:14:49 > 0:14:52with stories like Sandkings, I wanted to combine
0:14:52 > 0:14:56the wonder and imagination of the traditional Tolkienist fantasy
0:14:56 > 0:15:01with the grittiness and the realism of the best historical fiction
0:15:01 > 0:15:04and produce something that could stand in both traditions.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08And the moral realism, as well, of it, in that, you know,
0:15:08 > 0:15:10there's no good orcs in Tolkien,
0:15:10 > 0:15:13whereas one thing which I think stands out
0:15:13 > 0:15:15with Ice And Fire is the moral realism.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18Characters are constantly on a moral arc,
0:15:18 > 0:15:20which vacillates across the books.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24I've always...I've always been attracted to great characters,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27I think, as long as I can remember.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29What I call great characters, characters...
0:15:29 > 0:15:31- Who might be the first? - ..who wrestle with the issues.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34I mean, even in Tolkien, to my mind...
0:15:36 > 0:15:40And Tolkien is not as black and white in some ways as people see him.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43I mean, Boromir is one of my favourite characters in Tolkien.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46He is basically a good man. He's basically a hero, but he...
0:15:46 > 0:15:48he succumbs to the temptation of the ring.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50He wants the power in order to save his country,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53to do good for all the... He does a bad thing for all the right reasons.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56Saruman is another great character
0:15:56 > 0:15:59who starts out being a great wizard on...
0:15:59 > 0:16:02fighting for what we consider the good side,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05but then succumbs completely to the temptation and...
0:16:05 > 0:16:10becomes a very dark character,
0:16:10 > 0:16:12a deluded character, I think.
0:16:12 > 0:16:18Gollum, again, a fascinatingly complex character who straddles...
0:16:18 > 0:16:20These are the most interesting characters, I think,
0:16:20 > 0:16:22in Lord Of The Rings
0:16:22 > 0:16:28and characters have always fascinated me. You know, I, er...
0:16:28 > 0:16:32I began, when I was a kid, as a comic-book fan.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36I read a lot of comic books and the first words of mine
0:16:36 > 0:16:40that were ever published were in Marvel Comics,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43um...a Fantastic Four letter column,
0:16:43 > 0:16:45Fantastic Four number 20,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48a letter of praise about Fantastic Four number 17,
0:16:48 > 0:16:52where basically I said, "Shakespeare, move over, Stan Lee has arrived."
0:16:52 > 0:16:54LAUGHTER
0:16:54 > 0:16:58And...I published a number of letters
0:16:58 > 0:17:00in the Marvel letter columns of that age.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03One of them... The comedian John Hodgman came up to me
0:17:03 > 0:17:07with a Xerox of one at a Hollywood event
0:17:07 > 0:17:09and it was a letter I'd written to The Avengers
0:17:09 > 0:17:11about the issue in which
0:17:11 > 0:17:14the character of Wonder Man was first introduced
0:17:14 > 0:17:15and I just loved it. I mean,
0:17:15 > 0:17:19the letter was a complete praise of this brilliant issue.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Now, those of you who are not comic-book geeks here, you know,
0:17:22 > 0:17:24The Avengers, you know The Avengers, right? You've seen the movie
0:17:24 > 0:17:27even if you didn't read the old comic books like I did in the day.
0:17:27 > 0:17:33So, Wonder Man is this character who comes in and he joins The Avengers.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35He's this great hero, he's really powerful,
0:17:35 > 0:17:38he joins The Avengers, but he is secretly a bad guy
0:17:38 > 0:17:42who has been planted in The Avengers to destroy them from within,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45but when the moment comes where he is supposed to betray them
0:17:45 > 0:17:48and destroy them, he has come to like them so much
0:17:48 > 0:17:51by being a spy among them that he can't bring himself to do it.
0:17:51 > 0:17:55Instead, he sacrifices himself and dies at the end of the issue.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57And, of course, I loved this.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59Even at the age of 12 or 13 or whatever it was,
0:17:59 > 0:18:02everything about this issue appealed to me and I look at it and say,
0:18:02 > 0:18:06"Well, there's my literary influence right there, it's Stan Lee!"
0:18:06 > 0:18:10It's this great character who's, you know, you think he's good,
0:18:10 > 0:18:13but really he's evil, but at the end he's really good,
0:18:13 > 0:18:15but then he gives up his life and he dies for it.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Of course, they ruined it by bringing him back in later issues, but...
0:18:18 > 0:18:19LAUGHTER
0:18:19 > 0:18:22But, at the time I wrote the letter, I didn't know that,
0:18:22 > 0:18:24I thought he died, so, you know.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27So maybe Stan Lee is the greatest literary influence on me,
0:18:27 > 0:18:30even more than Shakespeare or Tolkien or Sir Walter Scott
0:18:30 > 0:18:31or any of them.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34I'm going to open it up immediately to the audience.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36Now, we've got some roving mics.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40If we could see some hands and if we could get the mics very quickly
0:18:40 > 0:18:43to that person there and to that person there.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45Thank you.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48Hello. I love the books, thank you for them.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51Without giving anything away, which I'm sure you won't,
0:18:51 > 0:18:53when you first started writing Ice And Fire,
0:18:53 > 0:18:56had you decided how it was all going to end
0:18:56 > 0:18:59and how many people would get killed off en route...
0:18:59 > 0:19:01LAUGHTER
0:19:01 > 0:19:03..and have you changed your mind about any of it
0:19:03 > 0:19:05as you've continued to write?
0:19:05 > 0:19:06I...I, er...
0:19:08 > 0:19:12I did change my mind on small things occasionally, you know.
0:19:12 > 0:19:18Writing leads you down certain roads and sometimes you get other ideas.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21I mean, I've been working on this since 1991, as I say.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24I'm not going to say I knew exactly, in 1991,
0:19:24 > 0:19:26everything that was going to happen.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28In fact, in 1991, I thought it was a trilogy.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30LAUGHTER
0:19:30 > 0:19:33So the tale has grown in the telling.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35But I do know the broad strikes
0:19:35 > 0:19:38and I have known those since roughly 1991
0:19:38 > 0:19:41and I've known the major deaths that would occur
0:19:41 > 0:19:43and who would ultimately survive
0:19:43 > 0:19:46and what the fates of the survivors would be.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48At least the major characters.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50But there are important secondary characters,
0:19:50 > 0:19:54including some that a lot of people in the audience probably like,
0:19:54 > 0:19:59who have kind of grown up and sort of shoved their way into the narrative
0:19:59 > 0:20:03and...and I don't necessarily know their fate,
0:20:03 > 0:20:07or whether they are going to live or die.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11I'll make that up as we go along and, er...
0:20:13 > 0:20:16I do know at least two people who are going to die...
0:20:16 > 0:20:18LAUGHTER
0:20:18 > 0:20:20..because they just paid for the privilege.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23I did this fundraiser for the wolf sanctuary in New Mexico
0:20:23 > 0:20:26and there are two guys who paid 20,000 apiece
0:20:26 > 0:20:30to be killed horribly in my books, so I have to...
0:20:30 > 0:20:33I have to introduce these guys,
0:20:33 > 0:20:34hopefully in a way that you won't notice,
0:20:34 > 0:20:36I don't want to intrude on the books,
0:20:36 > 0:20:39but I'll take their name and I'll tweak their name somehow
0:20:39 > 0:20:43and then, you know, I'll dump them in a lake of acid or...
0:20:43 > 0:20:45have their head chopped off.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49People seem to enjoy this, and the wolves will benefit, so...
0:20:49 > 0:20:51that's very cool.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53I like wolves.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56The person over here with the mic?
0:20:56 > 0:20:58Hi, you have lots of great characters in your books.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01Most of them, of mine, have died, unfortunately,
0:21:01 > 0:21:05but when you are writing, which is your favourite character
0:21:05 > 0:21:07and which one do you enjoy writing the most?
0:21:09 > 0:21:12Um, I enjoy writing all of them,
0:21:12 > 0:21:14but I think Tyrion is probably my favourite.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17I have a lot of affection for Arya too, but really, all of them,
0:21:17 > 0:21:22even the ones that are sort of despicable or unfortunate,
0:21:22 > 0:21:25like Theon or Victarion.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28You know, when I write them, I'm crawling inside their skin,
0:21:28 > 0:21:31I'm looking at the world through their eyes, at least for...
0:21:31 > 0:21:36the duration of writing the chapter, I have to identify with them.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39So, you know, it's like walk a mile in my shoes
0:21:39 > 0:21:40or walk 100 leagues in my shoes.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43I kind of have to see the world through their eyes
0:21:43 > 0:21:46and that builds up a certain understanding and affection of them.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49One of the things I want to do with all my characters,
0:21:49 > 0:21:53and this is part of this question of realistic characters,
0:21:53 > 0:21:56is give them motivations for the things we do.
0:21:56 > 0:21:57I mean, we...
0:21:57 > 0:22:03we look at the world... and we see evil in the world,
0:22:03 > 0:22:05or things that we consider evil.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07I mean, I've been watching the news lately,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10the stuff that's going on in Iraq and Syria,
0:22:10 > 0:22:15this group Isis and things that they are doing certainly seems evil to me,
0:22:15 > 0:22:18but then I've seen a documentary
0:22:18 > 0:22:20where people have gone and interviewed these guys
0:22:20 > 0:22:22and the Isis guys don't think they're evil.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25They're not like the Red Skull or Dr Doom or Sauron.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27They're not getting up in the morning
0:22:27 > 0:22:29and saying, "Ha-ha-ha! What evil can I do today?"
0:22:29 > 0:22:32They think what they're doing is heroic.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37They have their own motivations for it, as deluded and twisted
0:22:37 > 0:22:40and wrong as those motivations may seem to us.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42And that's what I try to do when I write any character
0:22:42 > 0:22:45who might be considered dark, is what are their motivations,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48how do they see the world, what's their...
0:22:48 > 0:22:52what's their culture, what's their ethical and moral values? So...
0:22:53 > 0:22:55And there's one at the back, just here. Yeah.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02It's interesting you're sat next to a Booker Prize judge
0:23:02 > 0:23:07because, of course, Americans are now eligible for prizes like that,
0:23:07 > 0:23:11but, I mean, the truth is, you probably won't be nominated
0:23:11 > 0:23:14because of the genre you write in. I mean, how do you feel about that?
0:23:14 > 0:23:17Does it annoy you that literary fiction is somehow
0:23:17 > 0:23:19seen as better than what you write?
0:23:19 > 0:23:21I'm not so sure!
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Well... You know, I'm...
0:23:25 > 0:23:29I've certainly been aware of this and, again, since I'm a kid.
0:23:29 > 0:23:30Um...
0:23:32 > 0:23:36And I take heart with the fact that it is changing. It is changing.
0:23:36 > 0:23:40I mean, when I was, like, 12 and 13 years old,
0:23:40 > 0:23:44I had teachers take books away from me,
0:23:44 > 0:23:47science fiction books by Heinlein and Asimov and Tolkien,
0:23:47 > 0:23:51take books away from me in school and say, "You're a smart kid,
0:23:51 > 0:23:54"you get good grades, why are you reading this shit?" You know.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56Well, they didn't use "shit". LAUGHTER
0:23:56 > 0:23:59They were teachers, they said "trash".
0:23:59 > 0:24:00You know, "Whet your mind,
0:24:00 > 0:24:05"you should be reading Silas Marner, or something like that."
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Um...
0:24:07 > 0:24:10And, er, if...if I had been reading Silas Marner,
0:24:10 > 0:24:13I probably would have stopped reading. Er...
0:24:13 > 0:24:15But...
0:24:15 > 0:24:18The, er...
0:24:18 > 0:24:20There was a lot of prejudice against all genre fiction,
0:24:20 > 0:24:23particularly against science fiction and fantasy
0:24:23 > 0:24:27and it's still there, but it's not nearly what it was.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30I mean, Michael Chabon has won the Pulitzer Prize.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34Junot Diaz has won the Pulitzer Prize for a book about, basically,
0:24:34 > 0:24:40a science-fiction nerd in his Oscar Wao book. We see...
0:24:40 > 0:24:44Lord Of The Rings was voted the greatest novel of the 20th century
0:24:44 > 0:24:46in the... Was it the Times or the Guardian or...?
0:24:46 > 0:24:48- It was the Times. - One of them did a poll.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50And I know many people were outraged by that,
0:24:50 > 0:24:53but obviously many more people weren't outraged
0:24:53 > 0:24:56because they voted for it. Er...
0:24:56 > 0:24:59So, I think these things are breaking down.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03It's an artificial distinction anyway.
0:25:03 > 0:25:08Literary fiction in its present form is a genre itself. Um...
0:25:08 > 0:25:09And we should...
0:25:09 > 0:25:13We should recognise that through most of literary history,
0:25:13 > 0:25:15this distinction did not exist.
0:25:15 > 0:25:19I think if you really, you know, study literary history,
0:25:19 > 0:25:20it all goes back to Robert Louis Stevenson
0:25:20 > 0:25:25and his quarrel with Henry James and that was unfortunate.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29It... It created this artificial division between popular culture
0:25:29 > 0:25:31and real culture, between...
0:25:31 > 0:25:33literature on one hand
0:25:33 > 0:25:37and things that were just popular fiction on the other.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40But enough time has passed that I think that's going away.
0:25:40 > 0:25:45The real test is what books are going to survive, you know,
0:25:45 > 0:25:48and I won't be around to know, but...
0:25:49 > 0:25:54You know, Tolkien has certainly survived. It's...been a long time
0:25:54 > 0:25:56since those books came out in the '30s and in the '50s
0:25:56 > 0:26:00and we're still reading him, we're still reading him by the millions.
0:26:00 > 0:26:01His story has survived,
0:26:01 > 0:26:04his characters have entered the popular culture.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06Will that be the case with mine? I don't know.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09I think that's every writer's dream, but, er...
0:26:10 > 0:26:12Maybe so.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15But all you can do is write the best stories you can
0:26:15 > 0:26:19and then put it in the hands of posterity and...
0:26:19 > 0:26:23the fact that people are arguing about my books...
0:26:23 > 0:26:27is a sign that I take very well, you know, because...
0:26:28 > 0:26:34A writer's real enemy is obscurity. Um... I mean, I...
0:26:34 > 0:26:35And I've been there.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38I've had a long career, like 20 years before Ice And Fire.
0:26:38 > 0:26:40I gave book signings where no-one came.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43Now, you guys are all going to be queueing up
0:26:43 > 0:26:45to get my signature here after this and...
0:26:45 > 0:26:50But I remember sitting in malls behind a giant stack of my books
0:26:50 > 0:26:53and two people came in in an hour and, you know,
0:26:53 > 0:26:55asked me where the cookbooks were.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57LAUGHTER
0:26:57 > 0:27:00So, er, you know, it's better to have this debate, it's better
0:27:00 > 0:27:03to have the books being noticed and read and talked about
0:27:03 > 0:27:05and I'll take that.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07It is changing quite dramatically.
0:27:07 > 0:27:11David Mitchell's book on the Booker long list this year,
0:27:11 > 0:27:14the fifth section of it is an epic fantasy battle
0:27:14 > 0:27:17in the Chapel Of The Dusk between the Anchorites and the Atemporals.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20Now, that would not have been sort of seen as Booker material
0:27:20 > 0:27:22even ten years ago.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24To the person at the back that's got the mic there.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Hi. I was wondering if you could tell us about your process
0:27:28 > 0:27:31of keeping plot points and characters continuous
0:27:31 > 0:27:32throughout all the books.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35Cos the world is so large and there are so many characters,
0:27:35 > 0:27:38I've always been interested to know how you keep track of them all.
0:27:38 > 0:27:42With increasing difficulty. LAUGHTER
0:27:43 > 0:27:48You know, I... I don't have a good answer for that. How do I do it?
0:27:48 > 0:27:50I just do it as best I can.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52I have charts, I have genealogies,
0:27:52 > 0:27:56um, but most of it is in my head.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Um...
0:27:59 > 0:28:04I have sometimes said, only half jokingly,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08that it's because I have a brain defect of some sort. I...
0:28:08 > 0:28:13The brain synapses that most people use to keep track of real life,
0:28:13 > 0:28:16I use to Westeros and my characters,
0:28:16 > 0:28:19so I will meet all of you when you come by
0:28:19 > 0:28:22and then, if I meet you tomorrow, I won't know who the hell you are
0:28:22 > 0:28:24because I'll have forgotten you already.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27I apologise. It's nothing personal, but I'm using those...
0:28:27 > 0:28:29those brains synapses,
0:28:29 > 0:28:31to remember some obscure character
0:28:31 > 0:28:33who was in the second book and had two lines.
0:28:33 > 0:28:34LAUGHTER
0:28:34 > 0:28:36I do think I have...
0:28:36 > 0:28:39We have a new book coming out in October, The World Of Ice And Fire,
0:28:39 > 0:28:41which I've been working on with my friends
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Elio Garcia and Linda Antonssen for some years.
0:28:44 > 0:28:46It was supposed to be out, like, three years ago,
0:28:46 > 0:28:48like many of my books.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51LAUGHTER But it's the history of Westeros
0:28:51 > 0:28:54and the lands beyond and it's a beautiful coffee-table book.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56It will be out in October.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59And that's got a tremendous amount of new history and characters
0:28:59 > 0:29:02and names that I have to keep track of.
0:29:02 > 0:29:04Er, but..
0:29:04 > 0:29:09I don't know how I do it, but hopefully I will continue to do it,
0:29:09 > 0:29:11at least for two more books.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14To this person here.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16I've got a big...
0:29:16 > 0:29:18I've got a big soft spot for villains,
0:29:18 > 0:29:20or what we call villains broadly,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23in fiction and in non-fiction.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26It's probably why Tywin is my favourite character
0:29:26 > 0:29:29and I've got a big soft spot for Victarion as well
0:29:29 > 0:29:32because he's so self-serving and he's so kind of vicious.
0:29:32 > 0:29:33Do you get...
0:29:33 > 0:29:36Like you say that Tyrion and Arya are more your...
0:29:36 > 0:29:39your kind of favourite characters who you have a sort of bond with.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41Do you get a sense of fun
0:29:41 > 0:29:45when you write the characters who are more sort of evil, if we say broadly?
0:29:47 > 0:29:49Well, you know, writing a villain can be fun,
0:29:49 > 0:29:52I mean, there's no doubt about it,
0:29:52 > 0:29:58having a really nasty piece of work can be amusing to write about.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00Even if they are doing appalling things,
0:30:00 > 0:30:02maybe the more appalling the better.
0:30:02 > 0:30:05That said, even those characters, I try to give some...
0:30:05 > 0:30:10some dimension to and provide, as I said earlier, the motivations for.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13I mean, Tywin Lannister did not think he was evil
0:30:13 > 0:30:15and, if you read The World Of Ice And Fire
0:30:15 > 0:30:17and The History Of The Westerlands,
0:30:17 > 0:30:20you'll see the situation that he came out of with his family
0:30:20 > 0:30:25and what he was facing and why he is the person that he is.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30I also think, you know, after the Red Wedding,
0:30:30 > 0:30:36there's the infamous exchange between Tyrion and Tywin,
0:30:36 > 0:30:39where Tywin asks the question, you know, why is it...
0:30:41 > 0:30:45Why is it more moral to kill 10,000 people in a battle
0:30:45 > 0:30:47than a dozen at dinner? Er...
0:30:47 > 0:30:49Which, to my mind, is a good question
0:30:49 > 0:30:53that I really wanted my readers to think about.
0:30:53 > 0:30:58Um, because, you know, that is the philosophy of our world
0:30:58 > 0:31:02and most of history here, that if we...if we...
0:31:02 > 0:31:07you know, kill a dozen people at dinner, that's a horrible murder,
0:31:07 > 0:31:10but it's very honourable to march to war
0:31:10 > 0:31:12and fight a major battle where 10,000 die
0:31:12 > 0:31:16and Tywin is probably right to be questioning that.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18I'm not saying that...
0:31:18 > 0:31:20that was a good thing,
0:31:20 > 0:31:23but I think it's at least worth thinking about, debating.
0:31:23 > 0:31:25Um...
0:31:26 > 0:31:29I'm not a writer who has a lot of answers.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33I am a writer who likes to ask questions
0:31:33 > 0:31:36and to make my readers ask the questions of themselves
0:31:36 > 0:31:39and to argue with each other.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43You know, I don't often follow the...
0:31:43 > 0:31:46all the sites online that have grown up around my books.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49I did once upon a time, way back in the '90s,
0:31:49 > 0:31:52when the first ones came up, Dragonstone from Australia,
0:31:52 > 0:31:54an Australian named Peter Gibbs ran that,
0:31:54 > 0:31:57and I was really thrilled because, you know,
0:31:57 > 0:32:00I'd been through all those years of nobody coming up to my signings
0:32:00 > 0:32:04and all that, and now, here there was this new interweb thing
0:32:04 > 0:32:07and there were sites devoted to my books and people arguing about them.
0:32:07 > 0:32:08Pretty soon it got so big, I said,
0:32:08 > 0:32:11"You know, I can't follow this any more and I'd better not,"
0:32:11 > 0:32:13but I'm still aware of their existence out there
0:32:13 > 0:32:15and they're huge, they're gigantic
0:32:15 > 0:32:18and they argue constantly about the characters in the books.
0:32:18 > 0:32:20And...
0:32:20 > 0:32:22That pleases me no end
0:32:22 > 0:32:25because it means I'm successfully asking the questions
0:32:25 > 0:32:28and people are responding to these characters as if they were real.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30People were saying, "That Tywin... Tywin is horrible,
0:32:30 > 0:32:34"he's Adolf Hitler." "No, no, Tywin really has a good point."
0:32:34 > 0:32:36And they're clashing about Tywin
0:32:36 > 0:32:39and, to my mind, that's a sign
0:32:39 > 0:32:41that I've created a fully fleshed character
0:32:41 > 0:32:44and not just a black piece of cardboard.
0:32:45 > 0:32:49There are a lot of strong female characters in Ice And Fire.
0:32:49 > 0:32:50Are there any women from history
0:32:50 > 0:32:53that you have been particularly inspired by?
0:32:55 > 0:32:59Um... Well, I'm... I've been inspired...
0:32:59 > 0:33:03There are strong women through history. Um...
0:33:05 > 0:33:08And maybe not so much in fantasy.
0:33:08 > 0:33:12There are some fantasies out there...
0:33:12 > 0:33:15And you have to remember when I talk about it, too,
0:33:15 > 0:33:19that there's a lot of fantasies come after Ice And Fire,
0:33:19 > 0:33:21since I've begun, so...
0:33:21 > 0:33:25some of the generalisations I'm going to make
0:33:25 > 0:33:28are really specifically from Tolkien to the...
0:33:28 > 0:33:33to the mid, early '90s, when I started writing this book, but...
0:33:33 > 0:33:36You know, I enjoyed Xena The Warrior Princess,
0:33:36 > 0:33:37that was a lot of fun to watch,
0:33:37 > 0:33:41but I didn't think it was actually an accurate portrayal
0:33:41 > 0:33:45of a woman warrior and what she would have to be like.
0:33:45 > 0:33:51I sort of created Brienne of Tarth as an answer to that,
0:33:51 > 0:33:56but I was also inspired by people like Eleanor of Aquitaine and, er...
0:33:56 > 0:33:59And not so much Joan of Arc,
0:33:59 > 0:34:01although I was certainly aware of him,
0:34:01 > 0:34:05but some of the queens of Scottish history,
0:34:05 > 0:34:10well, from Lady Macbeth on down, were strong women who didn't
0:34:10 > 0:34:15necessarily put on chainmail bikinis and go forth to fight in battles,
0:34:15 > 0:34:18but exercised immense power by other ways.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22Mary Queen of Scots was
0:34:22 > 0:34:24an idiot, but... LAUGHTER
0:34:24 > 0:34:26..but was certainly a strong-willed woman
0:34:26 > 0:34:30and she ran up against an even stronger and rather smarter woman
0:34:30 > 0:34:32and came out on the losing end there.
0:34:32 > 0:34:34But still a fascinating character in her own way
0:34:34 > 0:34:37and the struggles that she went and some of her predecessors,
0:34:37 > 0:34:44some of the other Scottish queens who, er...ruled as regents from...
0:34:44 > 0:34:46Those of you who know your Scottish history know
0:34:46 > 0:34:50that Scotland kept getting stuck with, like, three-year-old kings
0:34:50 > 0:34:51and these long periods of regencies
0:34:51 > 0:34:54where all the lords would fight over the regency
0:34:54 > 0:34:56and usually the queen was in the middle of that,
0:34:56 > 0:35:02so, you know, I did want to reflect...different types of women.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06One of the things that I have a great advantage of
0:35:06 > 0:35:08is with my cast of characters
0:35:08 > 0:35:11because I have so many characters,
0:35:11 > 0:35:13that in something like writing women,
0:35:13 > 0:35:16I can have strong women and weak women,
0:35:16 > 0:35:18I can have noble women and selfish women,
0:35:18 > 0:35:21I can have smart women and stupid women,
0:35:21 > 0:35:25which is true of any group, I think, and is the way to...
0:35:25 > 0:35:28Cos we're all different. I think your problem comes when you...
0:35:28 > 0:35:32when you stereotype a group as all being kind of the same,
0:35:32 > 0:35:35especially if you give them negative characteristics.
0:35:35 > 0:35:39Um, when, actually, all groups that I know of...
0:35:39 > 0:35:40Yes, we're influenced by our culture
0:35:40 > 0:35:42and there are certain cultural similarities
0:35:42 > 0:35:45and we fulfil certain societal roles,
0:35:45 > 0:35:47but the individual differences are very important
0:35:47 > 0:35:50and we get very different personalities,
0:35:50 > 0:35:54even within the same culture and society, and I try to reflect that.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57But it has been... The number of women who have liked my books
0:35:57 > 0:36:01is a great source of satisfaction to me
0:36:01 > 0:36:04and many of my signings are more women than men
0:36:04 > 0:36:09and they say that they do like various of my women characters
0:36:09 > 0:36:12and that's...
0:36:12 > 0:36:14That's cool. I'm very pleased by that.
0:36:14 > 0:36:16Well, in terms of reading in general,
0:36:16 > 0:36:18it tends to be more women than men, unfortunately.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20Yes, that's... That's true, too.
0:36:21 > 0:36:25Um, there's, um...
0:36:25 > 0:36:29There is a lot of fan theories out there about various things
0:36:29 > 0:36:30that are going to be happening in your books
0:36:30 > 0:36:33and one of them in particular about someone's parentage
0:36:33 > 0:36:34that I'm not going to go into. LAUGHTER
0:36:34 > 0:36:37But do you have a desire to surprise your audience,
0:36:37 > 0:36:40where, if you hear a particular prevailing fan theory,
0:36:40 > 0:36:44you might want to change your mind about things...in general?
0:36:44 > 0:36:47INTERVIEWER: It's kind of the Lost paradigm, isn't it?
0:36:47 > 0:36:49The Lost producers did look at what fans were saying
0:36:49 > 0:36:51and then deliberately take a swerve.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54Yeah, I...I've wrestled with this issue
0:36:54 > 0:36:57because I do want to surprise my readers.
0:36:57 > 0:37:00I hate predictable fiction as a reader.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03I don't want to write predictable fiction.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06I want to surprise and delight my reader
0:37:06 > 0:37:08and take the story in directions they didn't see coming.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10But...
0:37:11 > 0:37:16You can't change the plans and that is one of the reasons...
0:37:16 > 0:37:18I mentioned that, you know,
0:37:18 > 0:37:20I used to read some of these fan boards
0:37:20 > 0:37:24back in the '90s and the early '00s, when they were new
0:37:24 > 0:37:27and then I stopped doing that because...
0:37:27 > 0:37:29Well, for a variety of reasons.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32One is because I didn't have the time, two is...
0:37:33 > 0:37:35..this very issue of...
0:37:35 > 0:37:38so many readers were reading the books with so much attention
0:37:38 > 0:37:41that they were throwing up some theories
0:37:41 > 0:37:44and a lot of the theories were amusing bullshit...
0:37:44 > 0:37:46LAUGHTER ..but very creative,
0:37:46 > 0:37:49but some of the theories were right.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52You know, the readers, at least one or two readers,
0:37:52 > 0:37:56had correctly put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues
0:37:56 > 0:38:00that I had planted in the... in the books and...
0:38:00 > 0:38:05came to the right solution. So what do I do then? Do I change it?
0:38:05 > 0:38:07And I wrestled with that issue
0:38:07 > 0:38:10and I think changing it would have been a disaster.
0:38:10 > 0:38:11I mean, because the clues were there.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14I'm planting all these clues that the butler did it
0:38:14 > 0:38:16and then you're halfway through the series
0:38:16 > 0:38:20and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it
0:38:20 > 0:38:24and you say, "Hmm, OK, the chambermaid did it." Well...
0:38:24 > 0:38:27you've got all these clues that are pointing at the butler
0:38:27 > 0:38:31that somehow you have to retroactively deal with or something.
0:38:31 > 0:38:32No, you can't do that,
0:38:32 > 0:38:34so I'm just going to go ahead
0:38:34 > 0:38:37and some of my readers who don't read the boards,
0:38:37 > 0:38:40of which, thankfully, there are still hundreds of thousands,
0:38:40 > 0:38:43will still be surprised and other readers will say,
0:38:43 > 0:38:47"See? I said that four years ago. I said the butler did it.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50"I'm really smarter than you guys." LAUGHTER
0:38:50 > 0:38:52And that's just the way you have to do it here.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54This young lady has had her hand up for some time,
0:38:54 > 0:38:56so let's give her a chance.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58That will be the last one, I'm afraid.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00OK, you right there, you with the... Yeah.
0:39:02 > 0:39:03Here comes the... HE CHUCKLES
0:39:09 > 0:39:12You said before about wanting to write characters
0:39:12 > 0:39:15which are morally grey.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17Which characters in the book do you think are closest
0:39:17 > 0:39:19to having absolute morality, one way or the other?
0:39:19 > 0:39:24And do you think it's a good thing to have some characters like that?
0:39:24 > 0:39:26A good question to end on.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29Which characters are closer to having absolute morality?
0:39:29 > 0:39:31Was that the question?
0:39:31 > 0:39:33- Yes. - Um...
0:39:35 > 0:39:37Well, I think someone like Brienne
0:39:37 > 0:39:40has started with a very strong moral base,
0:39:40 > 0:39:43a very strong sense of what she believes in
0:39:43 > 0:39:47and principles that we would consider good, but, of course,
0:39:47 > 0:39:51she is now being exposed to the real world in a way she wasn't.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53She led a fairly sheltered life.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57So the question is, what will she be at the end of it? You know.
0:39:57 > 0:39:59And you can see a character like Jaime
0:39:59 > 0:40:02who's swinging back and forth the other ways, or Tyrion.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07You know, I like to take all of these characters and,
0:40:07 > 0:40:11wherever they start from, and change them and subject them to...
0:40:11 > 0:40:15to traumatic and difficult events that will shake their world views
0:40:15 > 0:40:18and maybe cause them to re-examine that.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20Even Ned Stark...
0:40:22 > 0:40:28..compromised his honour in the last act of his before he died
0:40:28 > 0:40:31by confessing to crimes he had not committed, so...
0:40:33 > 0:40:34Um...
0:40:34 > 0:40:39There is very little absolute in the world of Ice And Fire.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41This has been the most fabulous hour.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44I'm glad to know that if you do read all of the internet,
0:40:44 > 0:40:46you will get the right answers at some point.
0:40:46 > 0:40:47LAUGHTER
0:40:47 > 0:40:49All I can say is, this has been the youngest-looking audience
0:40:49 > 0:40:51since I chaired Neil Gaiman at the Book Festival.
0:40:51 > 0:40:53LAUGHTER
0:40:53 > 0:40:56It has been an absolute pleasure and I'm sure you're going to want
0:40:56 > 0:40:58to give George a huge round of applause.
0:41:01 > 0:41:04Thank you all for coming.