0:00:00 > 0:00:03Hello, everybody. Thank you very much indeed for coming.
0:00:03 > 0:00:05It's a special Radio 2 Book Club Edinburgh exclusive.
0:00:05 > 0:00:10Everything that we have done has always been live on Radio 2
0:00:10 > 0:00:12but tonight we have three authors and we are being live streamed
0:00:12 > 0:00:14on BBC Arts.
0:00:14 > 0:00:15Let me introduce them.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18Our first author appeared on the Radio 2 Book Club
0:00:18 > 0:00:21back in May 2013 with his book This House Is Haunted.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24He is also the man responsible for the New York Times
0:00:24 > 0:00:25number one bestseller,
0:00:25 > 0:00:28The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas, ladies and gentlemen, John Boyne.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:00:35 > 0:00:37They all like to get a little bit of applause just to
0:00:37 > 0:00:40ease their way into this whole experience.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44All of our authors have been on the Radio 2 Book Club before.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Novelist, nonfiction writer, playwright, short-story writer,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50her debut novel was Eskimo Kissing.
0:00:50 > 0:00:51Back in October 2012
0:00:51 > 0:00:54she came on the Radio 2 Book Club with the concluding volume
0:00:54 > 0:00:56of her French trilogy, Citadel.
0:00:56 > 0:00:57Kate Mosse.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:01:02 > 0:01:06She was also on the Radio 2 Arts Show last Friday night with me and...
0:01:06 > 0:01:08I'm stalking you!
0:01:08 > 0:01:11So we're going to be talking about pretty much the same kind of stuff.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13I'm going to say different things, though.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16OK. I'll ask the same questions, you change your answers, that's fine.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20Finally, our third guest this evening published Three Day Road in 2005.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25He was a Radio 2 Book Club author November 2013 with his third novel,
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Orenda, please welcome Joseph Boyden.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31APPLAUSE
0:01:33 > 0:01:35We haven't done one of these before.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38We are just going to talk about books for a while and then
0:01:38 > 0:01:41if there's time, we'll take some questions from you guys.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43I was just talking to John just before we came out that
0:01:43 > 0:01:48when you do events, you tend to get asked the same kind of questions.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51So let's get those out of the way first of all.
0:01:51 > 0:01:52What do you get asked all the time?
0:01:52 > 0:01:55You can answer it now and then you don't have to answer it when...
0:01:55 > 0:01:58John, what do you get asked always?
0:01:58 > 0:02:04I get asked where did I get the idea for Boy In The Striped Pyjamas?
0:02:04 > 0:02:07But I recently got asked in a school, did I see
0:02:07 > 0:02:10the film of The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas before I wrote the novel?
0:02:10 > 0:02:12LAUGHTER
0:02:12 > 0:02:14Which is one of the best questions.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16My other favourite question I ever got asked was,
0:02:16 > 0:02:17"Do you know Wayne Rooney?"
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Which is about as random as it comes.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23- And what was the answer? - No!
0:02:23 > 0:02:24No!
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Kate, what is the thing you get asked all the time?
0:02:27 > 0:02:30You can imagine the first thing is, "You're shorter than I thought
0:02:30 > 0:02:31"you were going to be."
0:02:31 > 0:02:33People always have a sense of...
0:02:33 > 0:02:36They know I'm not a supermodel, you'll be surprised to know.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38But there is always this thing that somehow they think
0:02:38 > 0:02:42I will be slightly not a short, middle-aged woman.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44They think I will be that person.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46And the other one... No, you're exactly right.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48You're always asked where you get your ideas from.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51John and I were talking about this. We were both on University Challenge
0:02:51 > 0:02:55and now that has become the most asked question for me.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58What is Jeremy Paxman like? So that is the version...
0:02:58 > 0:03:02- And what is your answer to that? - Well, he's shorter than you think.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04LAUGHTER
0:03:04 > 0:03:06Joseph, what do you get asked the most?
0:03:06 > 0:03:09Kate stole it. "Where do your ideas come from?"
0:03:09 > 0:03:12But the other thing is, "You're an Indian?"
0:03:12 > 0:03:15And I'm like... And they say, "Why do you look Italian?"
0:03:16 > 0:03:19It's... My mixture is actually Scotch blood, Irish blood
0:03:19 > 0:03:21and Ojibwe blood.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24I seem to remember that we talked a little about this.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28So you are... So give us the full list of ingredients.
0:03:28 > 0:03:33The full list! Ojibwe Indian, Irish and Scottish.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35OK.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39- It is very nice to see all... - And Canadian, of course.
0:03:39 > 0:03:40We are going to do some...
0:03:40 > 0:03:42Our authors are going to do some readings.
0:03:42 > 0:03:47It's entirely up to them which bit, a past book...
0:03:47 > 0:03:50I think we are going to get an exclusive from Kate,
0:03:50 > 0:03:51unless she changes her mind
0:03:51 > 0:03:53and chickens out and reads something from Citadel.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Or something like that.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59Here's my question to you. Have you written anything today?
0:04:02 > 0:04:05- Yeah. Well, I've edited today... - No, that's not good enough.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08- Have you been creative today? - Well, that is creative.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11You are taking something which isn't yet ready, which is
0:04:11 > 0:04:15still in a state of flux and you are trying to make it better.
0:04:15 > 0:04:16So I did that.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Just explain what you did then and what is the book.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22It's a new book for young people that I'm working on at the moment.
0:04:22 > 0:04:23I'm on the second draft
0:04:23 > 0:04:28so I brought a chapter with me on the plane from Dublin.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30I was just scrawling all over it, cancelling sentences,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33rewriting them so, yeah...
0:04:33 > 0:04:36That is being creative, that is writing, I think.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38Kate, have you written anything today?
0:04:38 > 0:04:39No.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43When was the last time... When was the last time you wrote a sentence?
0:04:43 > 0:04:45I am trying.
0:04:45 > 0:04:50I made a decision with my new book, which comes out in September,
0:04:50 > 0:04:54that I was going to try and enjoy the book that was about to happen
0:04:54 > 0:04:56rather than working on something new and getting in the way.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00I've discovered recently that I lose the joy of publication,
0:05:00 > 0:05:02if I'm already onto something else.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06So I made a decision this time that I was not going to start writing
0:05:06 > 0:05:09the new thing till the one that was about to go had gone
0:05:09 > 0:05:11and people had started to read it.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13So it's quite strange.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15So I prowl about the place because I get up really early
0:05:15 > 0:05:18when I'm writing and I can't break the habit.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23I get up at four o'clock and I'm like, "What am I going to do?"
0:05:23 > 0:05:26- How long since you... - Since I wrote wrote?
0:05:26 > 0:05:28Yeah, wrote wrote, yeah.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32I gave in the final version of the book...
0:05:34 > 0:05:36..in July.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39So I've written articles and I've written pieces about it
0:05:39 > 0:05:43but I haven't written anything that has come from nowhere,
0:05:43 > 0:05:46nothing from imagination in quite the same sort of way.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49And I miss it. I feel sort of a bit jittery.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53- Sounds like a drug. - Well, it kind of is. I mean...
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Towards the end, particularly, you're just...
0:05:56 > 0:06:00Well, you know too. You can't think about anything else but that.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03You live in this almost half state towards the end of a book, don't you,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06when you're getting towards the end and it's going to happen.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09And then suddenly it's gone.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11And it's still quite private before you publish.
0:06:11 > 0:06:16So only about ten people have read the new book at the moment.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18So it's still... You sort of feel like you're holding it.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21I feel quite protective of it still at the moment.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23And you've got a book out really soon as well, haven't you?
0:06:23 > 0:06:25It's that thing. So I don't really want to write
0:06:25 > 0:06:30and spoil that moment of this book about to go and do its thing.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33I feel like writing to distract myself from that, you know,
0:06:33 > 0:06:36the apprehension and the nerves about it -
0:06:36 > 0:06:38is it going to be any good, are people going to like it?
0:06:38 > 0:06:40Writing something else makes me think,
0:06:40 > 0:06:44"If everybody hates this, I'll be writing something good!"
0:06:44 > 0:06:46Joseph, have you written anything today?
0:06:46 > 0:06:47E-mails.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50No, we've all written e-mails today.
0:06:50 > 0:06:51I know...
0:06:51 > 0:06:53I wish I were sitting where Kate is because,
0:06:53 > 0:06:56second time she just stole what I was going to say!
0:06:56 > 0:06:58- We should swap! - We'll swap!
0:06:58 > 0:07:00But the same thing. I finished a book.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05I'm working on the adaptation for the book for a screenplay
0:07:05 > 0:07:10so that's not quite creative in the sense that it's brand-new stuff,
0:07:10 > 0:07:15it's a world I've already been living in my head for many years.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18But dying to start again to...
0:07:18 > 0:07:21I've got... Dying to start a new book again.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23Have you got that story in your head?
0:07:23 > 0:07:24I do. I have two, actually.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27They are fighting for which one's going to win. In terms...
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Young adult novel and adult novel. They're wrestling right now.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34They're both burbling, which is really exciting.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37How do you decide which one you're going to go with?
0:07:37 > 0:07:38The voices, the characters decide.
0:07:38 > 0:07:43When I start writing, it's very voice driven. Writing is
0:07:43 > 0:07:44what I think I do
0:07:44 > 0:07:48and it's the voice wins out and it's the one that calls me.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52Every morning it gets me up early and gets me out of bed to get going.
0:07:52 > 0:07:58When I was speaking to Kate and Patrick on Radio 2 on Friday,
0:07:58 > 0:07:59they both agreed...
0:07:59 > 0:08:02First of all they were saying there are no rules about this.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Everyone can write in an entirely different way.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07I'm going to ask you this first so Kate can't spoil it for you.
0:08:07 > 0:08:08KATE LAUGHS
0:08:08 > 0:08:10Kate and Patrick both said
0:08:10 > 0:08:14when they're working on something they don't talk to anybody about it.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17It is secret, it's a private world and
0:08:17 > 0:08:20until it's got to a particular point of view they won't discuss it.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22Is that the same with you?
0:08:22 > 0:08:25There is one... My wife Amanda Boyden is in the audience
0:08:25 > 0:08:28and she's a novelist as well. We actually...
0:08:28 > 0:08:32I don't know if your partners are writers or not.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33Amanda and I are writers.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37We write across the table from each other, which freaks out
0:08:37 > 0:08:38other writer friends.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40- That's amazing! - They're like, "What...?"
0:08:40 > 0:08:44We are always giddily sharing the good stuff
0:08:44 > 0:08:48and then sometimes saying, "I don't think this works."
0:08:49 > 0:08:52What if one of you is tapping away and the other one is just going...
0:08:52 > 0:08:56No, this happens! It's not necessarily this idyllic thing.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59There's a lot of tension sometimes but we write...
0:08:59 > 0:09:00Is it a big table?
0:09:00 > 0:09:03It's not that big.
0:09:03 > 0:09:05And so we share with each other
0:09:05 > 0:09:09and then we try to keep it our own little secrets.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12So you are sharing specifically or vaguely?
0:09:12 > 0:09:15"I'm doing a scene in a forest." "Oh, not another one."
0:09:15 > 0:09:17Yeah...
0:09:17 > 0:09:19Very specifically and also we talk about the global...
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Amanda says, "Well, I really think
0:09:21 > 0:09:24"this character arc for this novel I'm working on is this."
0:09:24 > 0:09:27And I'm like, "I don't know." She'll... We'll do the same.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30We share a big global and then very specific.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34Would you find it more difficult to write on your own or...
0:09:34 > 0:09:36I would feel... Yeah, I would feel...
0:09:36 > 0:09:40I think I would feel a little bit wandering through the forest
0:09:40 > 0:09:41kind of thing.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Amanda is a very good guide that way, though.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I trust her implicitly, obviously, in terms of...
0:09:47 > 0:09:49She's steered me in a pretty good direction so far.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53I think she feels the same way for me, in terms of...
0:09:53 > 0:09:56But it's not always fun.
0:09:56 > 0:10:01She would admit it. Sometimes it's very difficult to do this.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05John, when you've got a new idea and if you're at the editing process,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08do you discuss it with...
0:10:08 > 0:10:10And since we met you've got married so congratulations.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13Can you imagine, by the way, writing opposite?
0:10:14 > 0:10:16I can't. I can't.
0:10:16 > 0:10:17That sounds absolutely terrifying.
0:10:17 > 0:10:22The only person in my room when I'm writing is the dog. But...
0:10:22 > 0:10:24I don't talk to anybody about it except, yeah,
0:10:24 > 0:10:29I got married six months ago and my now husband I would tell him
0:10:29 > 0:10:32the idea but he's an engineer so...
0:10:32 > 0:10:33He's not interested.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35He just says, "Ah, that sounds nice."
0:10:35 > 0:10:37LAUGHTER
0:10:37 > 0:10:40- Nice?! - But I don't really like...
0:10:40 > 0:10:43I don't even like talking to my publisher about it until I have
0:10:43 > 0:10:48written quite a lot of it so that I feel confident in what I'm doing.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52I found in the past that if I share an idea before I've started
0:10:52 > 0:10:56I lose enthusiasm and you don't want to go and say, "I've changed
0:10:56 > 0:10:58"my mind about that. I'm going to write something else."
0:10:58 > 0:11:01So I really just don't talk to anybody.
0:11:01 > 0:11:06My husband is a playwright and a teacher and he is a brilliant editor
0:11:06 > 0:11:11so once I've got the draft, I then share it with him.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13But I don't want to tell anything before that because
0:11:13 > 0:11:16I want to know if the book I've got in my head
0:11:16 > 0:11:18I've made real on the page.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20I fear that if I talk to him and say
0:11:20 > 0:11:22this is what I'm doing that he's then got that
0:11:22 > 0:11:25sound in his head as well so if it's not on the page,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27we're both missing it.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29But the point at which I've got chapters,
0:11:29 > 0:11:31and we write in different rooms,
0:11:31 > 0:11:34which is a good way of keeping fit, actually, up and down.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37That is really exhilarating, someone who knows you so well
0:11:37 > 0:11:40and has a really good eye and a good ear
0:11:40 > 0:11:41so running from room to room
0:11:41 > 0:11:44throwing chapter 20 and then getting chapter 19 back.
0:11:44 > 0:11:48That's really... I find that bit really wonderful.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50But then I go back into the private room again.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53It's those moments I think we as writers live for that
0:11:53 > 0:11:57when you really want to share it with your partner, "Look, read this."
0:11:57 > 0:12:00And you just wait giddily, hopefully and nervously
0:12:00 > 0:12:05for that person to say either, "Ah," or "Yeah."
0:12:06 > 0:12:08I like the early funny ones.
0:12:08 > 0:12:09LAUGHTER
0:12:09 > 0:12:13Lee Child, who is a fabulously successful writer, is coming
0:12:13 > 0:12:16on the show in a few weeks' time. Jack Reacher, that is his creation.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19People love the Jack Reacher books.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21He said on the programme a couple of years ago now...
0:12:21 > 0:12:24I'm going to take him up on this when he comes back
0:12:24 > 0:12:26because I'm still not sure I believe him.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29He says when he starts to write a book, he does no research,
0:12:29 > 0:12:31he just starts.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33He sort of knows where he's going
0:12:33 > 0:12:37and he just...goes where his head takes him.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Again everyone does it entirely differently.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44Joseph, do you plot chapter by chapter?
0:12:44 > 0:12:46William Boyd does this so he knows exactly where he is.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50Chapter 23, that's going to be where that happens and then she's going to
0:12:50 > 0:12:51fall off the cliff and...
0:12:51 > 0:12:54I've made that bit up, that's not actually William Boyd.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56So do you know what's happening or do you just...
0:12:56 > 0:12:57None at all.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00I jump into the deep end of the pool and hope I can swim.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Even in terms of research this latest novel is a research-heavy book
0:13:04 > 0:13:07in terms of there's a lot I had to learn.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10A lot I already knew so I always assume I know enough just to start.
0:13:10 > 0:13:15I tend to know kind of big picture kind of foggy,
0:13:15 > 0:13:18"Yeah, it's going to end up there, I hope. I think."
0:13:18 > 0:13:20But I let the voices...
0:13:20 > 0:13:22And the characters, have they come first?
0:13:22 > 0:13:25The characters come first and they are always wanting to do something.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29This is what I compare it to. It's like raising a child.
0:13:29 > 0:13:33The child is born. You have to diaper and feed it or it'll die.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35That's like my characters.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37But then they become teenagers suddenly and they're like,
0:13:37 > 0:13:41"I'm not going to listen to you, I'm going to go in this direction."
0:13:41 > 0:13:43You're like, "Good luck.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45"But I might not be able to get you out of this one
0:13:45 > 0:13:46"if you get in trouble."
0:13:46 > 0:13:51The characters kind of make their way. They grow up.
0:13:51 > 0:13:52Their voices grow up
0:13:52 > 0:13:55and start going in directions that often surprise me.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58Can you explain a little bit?
0:13:58 > 0:14:00How can they surprise you? Because they are your characters.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04They are... We as writers are lucky.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08We get away with being crazy but it's our profession.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10We get to hear voices in your head...
0:14:10 > 0:14:11Imaginary friends!
0:14:11 > 0:14:14So these characters do things.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16Every novel I've written the characters
0:14:16 > 0:14:19have done something that absolutely surprised me.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22I'm kind of like the director watching things
0:14:22 > 0:14:25unfold on the stage in front of me.
0:14:25 > 0:14:30Once in a while the actors just do things that just shock me.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34I'm like, "OK, go with it then." And they do.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36They'll either lead me down a dead end
0:14:36 > 0:14:40or they'll do something that really changes the novel in a good way.
0:14:40 > 0:14:45John, do you plot meticulously or do you go where the mood takes you?
0:14:45 > 0:14:47I'm quite like Joseph on this.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50I know nothing really other than the basic idea of what the book
0:14:50 > 0:14:52is about and I just start.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55I think I know what it's about but at the end of the first draft
0:14:55 > 0:14:57it turns out to have been about something else.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00In terms of research, I don't know what I don't know
0:15:00 > 0:15:02until I have finished that first draft.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06So I would do a lot more research after a first draft than before it.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08But I don't really like to know anything.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10I just know... If I say, "OK, it's a book about..."
0:15:10 > 0:15:12If you could sum it up in a sentence,
0:15:12 > 0:15:15this is what it's about, I'll just start.
0:15:15 > 0:15:16And start writing.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19John Irving, the American novelist, he won't start writing
0:15:19 > 0:15:21until he knows his last sentence.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24And when he gets the last sentence he works back from the last sentence
0:15:24 > 0:15:27and he gets it all in his head and then he starts.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30So, Kate, I know a little bit about your new book anyway
0:15:30 > 0:15:33because you talked to us about it on Radio 2
0:15:33 > 0:15:37but just on this specific question about knowing...
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Do you just know the general direction
0:15:40 > 0:15:42or do you plan more meticulously than that?
0:15:42 > 0:15:46I don't plan. I'm with these guys absolutely about that.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48In a funny sort of way your characters have to
0:15:48 > 0:15:50learn to act in character.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52They have to be themselves.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55There is that delicious moment in every book where
0:15:55 > 0:16:00they step out from behind you and rather than you as the author
0:16:00 > 0:16:04having your hands in the small of their back making them
0:16:04 > 0:16:08move forward, they turn round and take your hand instead.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11It sounds so pretentious but it is what happens.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13We all know when a character is just
0:16:13 > 0:16:16a list of characteristics, that they are this tall, that...
0:16:16 > 0:16:18They are not characters that any of us care about.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21All of those things I agree with but I do...
0:16:21 > 0:16:25I don't plan but the research I do very meticulously first
0:16:25 > 0:16:29because I feel I need to know the world completely before I can
0:16:29 > 0:16:31start to play in it.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34That is partly because I am often writing historical,
0:16:34 > 0:16:39significantly historical, not 1975 as opposed to 2014.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43Because I often have women heroes as I think of them
0:16:43 > 0:16:46because for me the hero is the protagonist of the story,
0:16:46 > 0:16:49not someone waiting to be rescued, which I'm afraid the word heroine
0:16:49 > 0:16:52still carries that for me.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55It makes a difference to everything that they do so
0:16:55 > 0:17:00if I'm writing about a young woman in 1896...
0:17:00 > 0:17:05if I don't know what she's wearing, I don't know if she can run.
0:17:05 > 0:17:06Can she run?
0:17:06 > 0:17:09Is she in a corset? Has she got enough breath?
0:17:09 > 0:17:11So everything about how she would be
0:17:11 > 0:17:14and behave will be influenced by me knowing or not knowing that.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17Having said that, with The Taxidermist's Daughter,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19which is my new one,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21it's the fastest book I've ever written.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24And I did. I liked that idea of jumping in the pool and I had
0:17:24 > 0:17:29a sense of certain things I needed to know and then I went for it.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31And that was exhilarating, to write like that,
0:17:31 > 0:17:36because Citadel I researched for four years before I sat down at my desk.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38And this one I thought, "OK.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42"I'm off." And the pace in a thriller matters.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46It's all about the pace, it's all about rushing to the finish line.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49So I can see that I'm going to write slightly differently now.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52And you say this is the fastest book? So how fast is that?
0:17:52 > 0:17:54Five months.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57- Wow! - I know! I know! I know!
0:17:57 > 0:18:00John's face is, "Oh, my God!"
0:18:01 > 0:18:04I've never done that. This is off the back of five years...
0:18:04 > 0:18:07- This is my dream. To do that. - This is my dream.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09I think this is the key. I suddenly thought, "My God.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13"I'm 52 now. If I speed up like this I could write a few more books."
0:18:13 > 0:18:17Otherwise I'll be one of those people - I've only got a few.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20You interviewed Anthony Horowitz or Ian Rankin, these people...
0:18:20 > 0:18:23You look at the front of their books and you go, "Oh, my God!
0:18:23 > 0:18:25"They are younger than me! Look at all those books!"
0:18:25 > 0:18:27I just thought I needed to speed up.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30They don't research... I'm speaking on behalf of them.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32They don't research for four years before they...
0:18:32 > 0:18:34There you are. That's the killer, isn't it?
0:18:34 > 0:18:35Research for me...
0:18:35 > 0:18:39When researching a book it can become procrastination like that.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42There is a fine line between research...
0:18:42 > 0:18:45I'm not saying you did for four years procrastinate but I certainly...
0:18:45 > 0:18:50I love reading nonfiction, reading about the worlds
0:18:50 > 0:18:52and learning them. But it's like...
0:18:52 > 0:18:53There's that side of me.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57I can't write any more when I'm reading too much. It's interesting.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00It's that wonderful Julia Margaret Cameron phrase.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03"And the net will find you." And that's exactly what it's like
0:19:03 > 0:19:06with research, that there is a moment at which you have to go, "OK.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08"Enough now." And then you go.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10- May I ask a question? - Of course.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13Do you all read fiction when you're writing your own fiction?
0:19:13 > 0:19:15- Yes. - You do?
0:19:15 > 0:19:16All the time.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19I ask writer friends all the time and it's almost always 50-50.
0:19:19 > 0:19:21I can't read other people's fiction
0:19:21 > 0:19:25when I'm writing my own for fear that the voices...
0:19:25 > 0:19:27Even if it's on a completely different subject?
0:19:27 > 0:19:29Yes. A completely different subject.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32I've heard some people say they can't read a first-person narrative
0:19:32 > 0:19:34if they're writing a first-person narrative.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36And the same with third person.
0:19:36 > 0:19:37It's never bothered me.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39I get lost in a world so easily I guess that
0:19:39 > 0:19:41when I pick up a good book...
0:19:41 > 0:19:46And then I think to myself, "How do I compare?"
0:19:46 > 0:19:48My first novel, Three Day Road, I was writing that
0:19:48 > 0:19:50and I finished it and someone said,
0:19:50 > 0:19:53"Have you ever read Pat Barker?" I said, "Who's he?"
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Thank God I hadn't read Pat Barker while I was trying...
0:19:58 > 0:20:00cos it's a World War I novel I wrote,
0:20:00 > 0:20:03because I would have said to myself,
0:20:03 > 0:20:07"She's done something so incredible,
0:20:07 > 0:20:10"why am I even bothering messing with that world?"
0:20:10 > 0:20:13I can read fiction that I know really well,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16so I read on a cycle all the Agatha Christie novels.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20I've read all of the 77 of them many times, so I can do that.
0:20:20 > 0:20:24But I think it's also about the voice that you have,
0:20:24 > 0:20:28because it's very fragile, the voice that you have for your book.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31Taxidermist's Daughter is set in 1912,
0:20:31 > 0:20:36and the voice and the tone of 1912 in England is so not
0:20:36 > 0:20:38the tone of 1915 in England,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42because already everything to do with the war and the flexibility
0:20:42 > 0:20:45and the way things fell apart is changing how people speak.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47So that's the thing that I protect against -
0:20:47 > 0:20:52the language becoming this sort of not quite as it would have been.
0:20:52 > 0:20:57Can you...? Is it quite easy to be intimidated as an author?
0:20:57 > 0:20:59If you're in the writing process
0:20:59 > 0:21:01and you're not reading fiction or you are reading fiction,
0:21:01 > 0:21:05do you ever read other people's work, John, and think,
0:21:05 > 0:21:09"Well, that was just fantastic -
0:21:09 > 0:21:11"I'm going to have to change what I do"?
0:21:11 > 0:21:14No, I don't. I don't want to sound arrogant.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17I read because I love reading. I love novels,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19I love to read something that I fall in love with and admire,
0:21:19 > 0:21:23and it doesn't make me feel good about myself or bad about myself
0:21:23 > 0:21:25as a person or a writer.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27It just makes me love literature more.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30Maybe it makes me want to raise my game more,
0:21:30 > 0:21:34but it would never really intimidate me or make me think I should...
0:21:35 > 0:21:38..get another job.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40I was just struck by what James was saying talking about Pat Barker,
0:21:40 > 0:21:42that you go, "Wow."
0:21:42 > 0:21:47I don't think there's any subject that we're done with.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50You know, I've written about the First World War
0:21:50 > 0:21:52and of course I knew there's those books,
0:21:52 > 0:21:56that there's All Quiet On The Western Front, there's Birdsong, but so what?
0:21:56 > 0:21:59You contribute your piece of work to it. If it matches up, it does.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01If it doesn't, it doesn't. You do your best.
0:22:01 > 0:22:07The only thing any of us can do is find our voice as a writer
0:22:07 > 0:22:10and then try to be the best that we can be.
0:22:10 > 0:22:11We're not anybody else.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14So there's no point comparing yourself to somebody else
0:22:14 > 0:22:17any more than there's any point comparing yourself to someone
0:22:17 > 0:22:20who runs faster than you or is taller than you or shorter than you
0:22:20 > 0:22:23or any of those things, because it is simply about,
0:22:23 > 0:22:27"Can I tell the story that I want to tell to the best of my ability?"
0:22:29 > 0:22:32It's not... For me, it's never about not reading somebody else
0:22:32 > 0:22:35because I would be discouraged.
0:22:35 > 0:22:41It's more that it would stop me being myself while I was being a writer.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43I don't know if you guys all feel this,
0:22:43 > 0:22:46but it was a great surprise to me to discover,
0:22:46 > 0:22:49to learn this thing that the person you are as a reader is not
0:22:49 > 0:22:52necessarily the person you are as a writer.
0:22:52 > 0:22:57So when I started out, I enormously like very lyrical,
0:22:57 > 0:23:00beautiful literary fiction, and I love crime.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04When I started I thought, "Well, I'll be one of those two things,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07"because these are the things I love."
0:23:07 > 0:23:11When I started, I realised that oddly I was a Gothic, historical writer,
0:23:11 > 0:23:15because oddly the person I was as a reader bore no relation
0:23:15 > 0:23:16to the person I was as a writer.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18That was an amazing lesson to learn.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22Once I'd learned that, I thought, "Well, that's OK, that's fine."
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Because actually the books I most admire
0:23:25 > 0:23:27are the ones that I'm not capable of writing.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29Does that ring true with you, Joseph?
0:23:29 > 0:23:32Yeah, I think, yeah. It resonates very strongly with me.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35It's funny...
0:23:36 > 0:23:40When I read, when I pick up a novel, I become a critic.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42I hate that.
0:23:42 > 0:23:47"This person, let's see why I can turn this book down," kind of thing.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49I don't know why that is.
0:23:50 > 0:23:55But then a good book, within pages, grabs me and takes me in.
0:23:55 > 0:23:56But it's the same thing.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02My issue is reading other really...
0:24:02 > 0:24:05engaging fiction when I'm trying to create that.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07We'll get you to do some reading in just a moment.
0:24:07 > 0:24:08Do you have a cut-off point?
0:24:08 > 0:24:12Do you give a novel a certain number of pages before you give up on it?
0:24:14 > 0:24:15My guess is everyone does.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19- 50 pages. If I'm not in on 50. - John?
0:24:22 > 0:24:25Not a certain number of pages, but if I'm bored and I know
0:24:25 > 0:24:28that it's not going to get any better,
0:24:28 > 0:24:30I feel no guilt about putting a book down.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33There's so many books I want to read and life is short.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36Once I know it's going nowhere, I'd stop.
0:24:36 > 0:24:37Kate, do you have a cut-off point?
0:24:37 > 0:24:42I've still got that awful good girl sitting in the classroom thing.
0:24:42 > 0:24:43I've really tried to break it.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46But the minute I start a book, I feel I have to finish it.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48I have to see it through.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52Well, also I suppose the thing is, we all know as writers,
0:24:52 > 0:24:59I still think that it is a really hard thing to finish a novel
0:24:59 > 0:25:02let alone two novels or three novels in terms of being a writer,
0:25:02 > 0:25:05so there's always part of me that thinks, "You know what?
0:25:05 > 0:25:10"I owe it to you to finish this, even though I'm not enjoying it
0:25:10 > 0:25:12"and there are other novels that I could do."
0:25:12 > 0:25:13So I do tend to...
0:25:13 > 0:25:16I might skim a bit, but I do tend to see it through.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19For years I had 100 pages as the cut-off point,
0:25:19 > 0:25:23and that was only because I read The Perfect Storm,
0:25:23 > 0:25:28and I found it difficult to get into, it was very mechanical and very dry.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30I stopped at about 90.
0:25:30 > 0:25:31I'd never heard of it.
0:25:31 > 0:25:36I'd just picked it up and read it, then put it aside for a while,
0:25:36 > 0:25:38and then suddenly it was everywhere.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41It was in big displays in shops, it was going to be a movie.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43I thought, "OK, it's clearly me."
0:25:43 > 0:25:47I went back, picked it up on page 95, and it flew.
0:25:47 > 0:25:50So I thought, "I'm going to have to..." It's completely arbitrary.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52I had the same experience with the same book.
0:25:52 > 0:25:54- Really? - I did, yes.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57- The description of drowning... - Yes.
0:25:57 > 0:26:01..that's when I was like, "Wow, this is something."
0:26:01 > 0:26:02I haven't...
0:26:02 > 0:26:06Just going back to Patrick Ness, who we were talking about on Friday,
0:26:06 > 0:26:10the drowning section in Perfect Storm is extraordinary.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15Patrick was on the Radio 2 Book Club for his latest book, which is
0:26:15 > 0:26:20More Than This. The first five pages, the main character drowns.
0:26:20 > 0:26:26It's the most astonishing few pages. It's a tour de force, really.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29I find that intimidating. I read those...
0:26:29 > 0:26:34I found the whole book intimidating, but it's just a genius piece.
0:26:34 > 0:26:38Of course, then the character is dead and has drowned,
0:26:38 > 0:26:40but is the main character throughout the whole book.
0:26:40 > 0:26:42You spend the whole time trying to work out
0:26:42 > 0:26:45precisely what's happening. I hadn't thought of the comparison,
0:26:45 > 0:26:47but that section in Perfect Storm was extraordinary.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49So you've got books on your laps
0:26:49 > 0:26:53and I think we're going to get an exclusive from Kate,
0:26:53 > 0:26:55I think we're going to get an exclusive from John.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58I don't think we're going to get an exclusive from you,
0:26:58 > 0:27:02but I'm not trying to diminish or talk it down in any way.
0:27:02 > 0:27:03But how long is it going to be
0:27:03 > 0:27:06before we get something completely new from you?
0:27:06 > 0:27:09Eh, I always promise myself things. I want to do what Kate did.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13I want to turn something around in a year, write a book that I'm...
0:27:13 > 0:27:16- Five months, five months. - Five months is...
0:27:16 > 0:27:18- I won't be able to... - Five months to write. Edit...
0:27:18 > 0:27:21If your editors are watching this, they're going to be saying,
0:27:21 > 0:27:23"Did you see what Kate Mosse did? Five months?
0:27:23 > 0:27:25"How come it takes you four years?"
0:27:25 > 0:27:28Joseph, what are you going to read for us?
0:27:28 > 0:27:32I thought I'd just do the prologue from this novel The Orenda.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36The Orenda, this is a Radio 2 Book Club choice.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40Just explain a little bit about it and then read for us.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43The Orenda is a novel that takes place in the mid-1600s
0:27:43 > 0:27:44in what is now North America
0:27:44 > 0:27:47and what is now specifically the southern part of Canada.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49It's about the clash of cultures.
0:27:49 > 0:27:54It's about French Jesuit missionaries coming to the New World to bring...
0:27:54 > 0:27:57"New World" to bring Christianity to the savages,
0:27:57 > 0:28:00and that clash of cultures.
0:28:00 > 0:28:02This story's been told a couple of times,
0:28:02 > 0:28:03but never through a native perspective.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06I wanted to do it through a native perspective.
0:28:06 > 0:28:10This novel is very classically structured. Three-act novel.
0:28:10 > 0:28:15Each act has a prologue. I'm going to read the first prologue.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18We had magic before the crows came.
0:28:18 > 0:28:20Before the rise of the great villages they
0:28:20 > 0:28:24so roughly carved on the shores of our inland sea and named with
0:28:24 > 0:28:30words plucked from our tongues - Chicago, Toronto, Milwaukee, Ottawa.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33We had our own great villages on these same great shores,
0:28:33 > 0:28:35and we understood our magic.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37We understood what the orenda implied.
0:28:38 > 0:28:41But who is at fault when that recedes?
0:28:41 > 0:28:43It's tempting to place blame,
0:28:43 > 0:28:45though loss should never be weighed in this manner.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48Who then to blame for what we now witness?
0:28:48 > 0:28:50Our children cutting their bodies to pieces
0:28:50 > 0:28:53or strangling themselves in the dark recesses of their homes,
0:28:53 > 0:28:56or gulping your stinking drink until their bodies fail.
0:28:56 > 0:28:58But we get ahead of ourselves.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00This, on the surface, is a story of our past.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04Once those crows flew over the great water from their old world
0:29:04 > 0:29:07to perch tired and frightened in the branches of ours,
0:29:07 > 0:29:09they saw that we had the orenda.
0:29:09 > 0:29:13We believed. Oh, did we believe!
0:29:13 > 0:29:15This is why the crows at first thought of us as nothing -
0:29:15 > 0:29:17as little more than animals.
0:29:17 > 0:29:19We lived in a physical world that frightened them
0:29:19 > 0:29:21and hunted beasts they'd only had nightmares of,
0:29:21 > 0:29:25and we consumed the mystery that the crows were bred to fear.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27We breathed what they feared.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30But they watched intently as crows are prone to do.
0:29:30 > 0:29:34When they cawed that our magic was unclean, we laughed,
0:29:34 > 0:29:36took little offence, even killed a few of them
0:29:36 > 0:29:38and pulled their feathers for our hair.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41We lived on, but that word - "unclean."
0:29:41 > 0:29:46That word somehow like an illness, like its own magic, it began to grow.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48Very few of us saw that coming.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51So maybe this is a story of those few.
0:29:54 > 0:29:55APPLAUSE
0:30:02 > 0:30:03Listening to you read that,
0:30:03 > 0:30:06I remember two things from when we had our conversation on the radio.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08First of all, I remember thinking, "This guy's got a great voice
0:30:08 > 0:30:12"and I could listen to it for a long time."
0:30:12 > 0:30:16I also remember from reading that first page, instantly thinking,
0:30:16 > 0:30:21"I'm not sure what you're writing about," but I was transported
0:30:21 > 0:30:25and intrigued and needed to know more about that world.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27How long ago did you write that?
0:30:27 > 0:30:30That was written... Oh, boy.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33A year and a half, two years ago.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36- Did you write that first? - No, I wrote it last.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38I wrote a version of it first
0:30:38 > 0:30:40and then it was the last thing that ended up.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43I went back to each prologue and corrected them -
0:30:43 > 0:30:45made them into what they needed to be.
0:30:45 > 0:30:50But I had the guts of it in that page, but I needed to work on it.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52What was wrong with the previous prologue?
0:30:52 > 0:30:55It wasn't sure what it wanted to say.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58I actually had a fight with my publisher in Canada.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00She said, "You don't need these prologues,"
0:31:00 > 0:31:03and I was saying, "I do, I need them.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06"I can't explain to you why, but let me work them
0:31:06 > 0:31:07"until I think they're right."
0:31:07 > 0:31:10That's what I did, work those until I...
0:31:10 > 0:31:12You know, the last thing I did.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15Kate, you have your new novel sitting on your lap.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18Well, I do, but I'm actually going to show Joseph the crow.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20Oh, look at that! There's the crow.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22Cos I have a fair few crows.
0:31:22 > 0:31:24Bizarrely, actually, cos I'm doing a speech
0:31:24 > 0:31:27at the book festival tomorrow, I have a stuffed crow in my room.
0:31:27 > 0:31:29I had to pick it up from reception when I arrived at the hotel.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32They said, "Madam, we were told that there
0:31:32 > 0:31:35"was a stuffed crow waiting for you." I wish I'd brought it now.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40So we're in the world of taxidermists.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43We are.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45The novel comes out the 11th of September.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47It's called The Taxidermist's Daughter.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51It's set in 1912 in Sussex, where I grew up,
0:31:51 > 0:31:54Fishbourne and Chichester in West Sussex.
0:31:54 > 0:31:56It's inspired by two things - one,
0:31:56 > 0:31:59an extraordinary museum of taxidermy that we used to visit
0:31:59 > 0:32:03all the time in the '70s which had all these tiny little animals
0:32:03 > 0:32:07all dressed up in costumes and doing things, in drinking dens,
0:32:07 > 0:32:09playing croquet, in orchestras.
0:32:09 > 0:32:13I was obsessed with this museum.
0:32:13 > 0:32:18Secondly, interestingly what you were saying about drowning and storms
0:32:18 > 0:32:20and the power of that in narrative.
0:32:20 > 0:32:26One of my very favourite novels still of all time is Mill On The Floss.
0:32:26 > 0:32:31I love that sense that whatever any of us does,
0:32:31 > 0:32:37the sea and the river and the rain can just take it all away like that.
0:32:37 > 0:32:38So these things came together.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41So it's a thriller, it's a whodunnit and a whydunnit.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44I'm just going to read, for the first time, so if I stumble
0:32:44 > 0:32:48and make a hash at it, particularly after that rather beautiful...
0:32:48 > 0:32:50you will, I hope, all forgive me
0:32:50 > 0:32:53and realise that I will get better as September 11th approaches.
0:32:57 > 0:33:01And like you, I have a prologue and epilogue always. I have three parts.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05It happens over four days in this wet summer of 1912.
0:33:09 > 0:33:14The church of St Peter and St Mary, Fishbourne Marshes, Sussex,
0:33:14 > 0:33:18Wednesday 24th April, 1912.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20Midnight.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23In the graveyard of the church,
0:33:23 > 0:33:27men gather in silence on the edge of the drowned marshes...
0:33:27 > 0:33:29watching, waiting...
0:33:31 > 0:33:34..for it is believed on the Eve of St Mark,
0:33:34 > 0:33:37the ghosts of those destined to die in the coming year
0:33:37 > 0:33:40will be seen walking into the church at the turning of the hour.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45It is a custom that has long since fallen away
0:33:45 > 0:33:48in most parts of Sussex, but not here.
0:33:48 > 0:33:52Not here where the saltwater estuary leads out to the sea.
0:33:52 > 0:33:57Not here in the old salt mill and the burnt-out remains
0:33:57 > 0:34:02of Far Hills' Mill, its rotting timbers revealed at each low tide.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06Here the old superstitions still hold sway.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11Skin, blood, bone.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16Out at sea the curlews and the gulls are calling,
0:34:16 > 0:34:19strange and haunting night-time cries.
0:34:19 > 0:34:23The tide is coming in fast, higher and higher, drowning the mudflats
0:34:23 > 0:34:25and the saltings until there is nothing left
0:34:25 > 0:34:28but the deep, shifting water.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30The rain strikes the black umbrellas
0:34:30 > 0:34:35and cloth caps of the farm workers and dairymen and blacksmiths,
0:34:35 > 0:34:39dripping down between neck and collar, skin and cloth.
0:34:40 > 0:34:45No-one speaks. The flames in the lanterns gutter and leap,
0:34:45 > 0:34:49casting distorted shadows up and up along the flint face of the church.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53This is no place for the living.
0:34:53 > 0:34:57Skin, blood, bone.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01A single black tailfeather.
0:35:03 > 0:35:05Wow.
0:35:05 > 0:35:06APPLAUSE
0:35:11 > 0:35:13I'm going to need someone to walk me home tonight,
0:35:13 > 0:35:15I'm not going home on my own after that.
0:35:17 > 0:35:18How long ago did you write that?
0:35:20 > 0:35:25Between February, March, April, May this year,
0:35:25 > 0:35:27and then editing, June and July.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31And exactly as John was saying, it changed shape.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34The way that I always think of novels,
0:35:34 > 0:35:39how a novel finds its form, is that you often have this wonderful moment,
0:35:39 > 0:35:42and for me it was the end of the novel,
0:35:42 > 0:35:44the sense of my lead character, Connie Gifford,
0:35:44 > 0:35:48who is the character we want to know, is she a goodie or a baddie?
0:35:48 > 0:35:50Are things going to happen to her or are things going to
0:35:50 > 0:35:52happen because of her?
0:35:52 > 0:35:54And I had this very clear image of this young woman
0:35:54 > 0:35:57standing on the sea wall as the mill was being washed away
0:35:57 > 0:36:01and the sea wall was washing away and the protagonists,
0:36:01 > 0:36:03are they the murderers, are they not?
0:36:03 > 0:36:07All of these things behind her, so there's the danger behind her,
0:36:07 > 0:36:10but actually the sea is the real danger, and I worked back from that.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14But I think always when you're writing you have that moment,
0:36:14 > 0:36:16and for me it's like a walled garden.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19Another favourite book, The Secret Garden,
0:36:19 > 0:36:20I've always been very keen on this sense
0:36:20 > 0:36:24of the enclosed space, and you could come into your novel
0:36:24 > 0:36:28in any one of any number of doors that are around that wall.
0:36:28 > 0:36:31So you might be finding yourself right at the end,
0:36:31 > 0:36:33and that's your inspiration,
0:36:33 > 0:36:35or you might come in a different door right at the beginning.
0:36:35 > 0:36:37And until you've written your first draft, you don't
0:36:37 > 0:36:40quite know the story you're telling.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43So I knew it was going to start on the Eve of St Mark's,
0:36:43 > 0:36:44I loved the idea that
0:36:44 > 0:36:47people still believed you could sit there in a church porch -
0:36:47 > 0:36:50even at the beginning of the 20th century people believed that -
0:36:50 > 0:36:53and see those images of people who were to die,
0:36:53 > 0:36:56I found that very arresting.
0:36:56 > 0:36:57But I started there
0:36:57 > 0:36:59and had no idea how I was going to get to the end,
0:36:59 > 0:37:01and the 90,000 words between that prologue
0:37:01 > 0:37:05and that epilogue were the discovery of the novel.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08And that's why I wrote it fast, because I felt like if I didn't
0:37:08 > 0:37:13start running I would trip over my own feet and the story would vanish.
0:37:13 > 0:37:17So Kate has her new book, Joseph has a book on his lap,
0:37:17 > 0:37:20you might have noticed John has an iPad.
0:37:20 > 0:37:22I have to apologise.
0:37:22 > 0:37:23KATE: Cos he's so modern!
0:37:23 > 0:37:27No, I feel embarrassed, but I don't have finished copies yet.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30That's how cool and exclusive this is.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32Yeah, I had to get the publisher to e-mail it to me
0:37:32 > 0:37:34today cos I didn't have it.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36But I've never read from one of these before
0:37:36 > 0:37:38and I don't feel good about myself.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42It's all right, we forgive you. Explain what this is, John.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45This is a novel that comes out on September 4th,
0:37:45 > 0:37:49a week before Kate's, it's called A History of Loneliness.
0:37:49 > 0:37:54It's the first novel I've set in Ireland, and this is a moment...
0:37:54 > 0:37:59I've never read aloud from it either, so, we'll see.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03But this is a scene quite late in the book where the narrator,
0:38:03 > 0:38:07a priest called Father Odran Yates, is attending the trial of
0:38:07 > 0:38:11another priest who is on trial for serial child abuse,
0:38:11 > 0:38:14and he has left the trial because he can't hear any more.
0:38:16 > 0:38:20A hand touched my arm and I almost jumped off my seat in fright,
0:38:20 > 0:38:22but it was just the woman seated next to me.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25She had a tired expression and not a hint of a smile on her face.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27I thought she was going to say something like,
0:38:27 > 0:38:30"Are you all right, Father?" But instead she just stared at me,
0:38:30 > 0:38:32and I knew I recognised her
0:38:32 > 0:38:34from somewhere, only I could not say where.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38"You're Father Yates, aren't you?" she asked me finally.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41"That's right", I said. "Do I know you?"
0:38:41 > 0:38:46"You do", she said. "Do you not remember me?" I shook my head.
0:38:46 > 0:38:49"I do and I don't, you look familiar but I can't place you."
0:38:49 > 0:38:53"Kathleen Kilduff," she said, and I closed my eyes.
0:38:53 > 0:38:54I thought I might be sick.
0:38:55 > 0:38:57"Mrs Kilduff," I said meekly.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01"We met in Wexford in 1990. You were down visiting your pal.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04"I was the fool who was delivering her son into his hands
0:39:04 > 0:39:06"every week for an hour."
0:39:06 > 0:39:09I nodded. What could I say to justify myself?
0:39:09 > 0:39:11"Of course," I said. "I remember you now."
0:39:11 > 0:39:14"And you remember Brian too, don't you?" "I do," I said.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17"I remember Brian." "Did you feel good about yourself,
0:39:17 > 0:39:19"reporting him like you did?
0:39:19 > 0:39:22"You know the gardai scared him half to death when they interviewed him
0:39:22 > 0:39:26"about the damage he'd done to that monster's car."
0:39:26 > 0:39:28"I'm sorry, I didn't know what to do at the time,
0:39:28 > 0:39:30"I thought there was something wrong with the boy.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32"I thought if Tom knew maybe he could help him."
0:39:32 > 0:39:35"Oh, he helped him all right," she said, laughing bitterly.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38"Sure, didn't he go to the gardai and tell them that if they just cautioned
0:39:38 > 0:39:41"the boy he'd see to it that he never did anything like that again.
0:39:41 > 0:39:44"And then he persuaded me to send Brian in to him
0:39:44 > 0:39:46"Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, three days a week,
0:39:46 > 0:39:50"for an hour every time, and of course I did what I was told.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52"Brian," she added, "my little lad,
0:39:52 > 0:39:54"who never did a bit of harm to anyone in his life.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56"He wanted to be a vet, did you know that?
0:39:56 > 0:39:59"He had a little dog that he just adored."
0:39:59 > 0:40:02I stared down at the floor.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05When I told that story earlier, when I told you about 1990,
0:40:05 > 0:40:09did I mention that I took what I had seen and reported it to the gardai?
0:40:09 > 0:40:13"Mrs Kilduff," I said, uncertain of what I was going to say next,
0:40:13 > 0:40:16but she interrupted me. "Don't say my name," she hissed.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18"And get off this bench right now!
0:40:18 > 0:40:21"I don't want you sitting anywhere near me! You disgust me!"
0:40:21 > 0:40:24I nodded and stood up, turning to walk away,
0:40:24 > 0:40:27but before I could, I thought I should say at least something
0:40:27 > 0:40:28to try to atone for what I had done.
0:40:30 > 0:40:32"I hope Brian is doing all right," I said.
0:40:32 > 0:40:36"I hope he's found a way to cope with what happened to him."
0:40:36 > 0:40:39She stared at me as if I was deliberately insulting her.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42"Are you trying to hurt me?" she asks. "Is that what you're doing?
0:40:42 > 0:40:44"Are you deliberately trying to be cruel?"
0:40:44 > 0:40:48"No," I said, failing to understand. "I only meant..."
0:40:48 > 0:40:51"Sure, Brian is dead these last 15 years," she told me.
0:40:51 > 0:40:52"He hanged himself in his bedroom.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55"I went up one day after school to fetch him down for his dinner
0:40:55 > 0:40:58"and there he was, his little legs dancing in the air,
0:40:58 > 0:41:02"the poor little dog staring up at him, not knowing what to do.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05"He killed himself. So tell me now, are you proud of yourself, Father?
0:41:05 > 0:41:08"You and your pal in there, are you proud of yourselves,
0:41:08 > 0:41:11"of all the things you and your pals have done? Do you even care?"
0:41:13 > 0:41:15APPLAUSE
0:41:22 > 0:41:24John, you were saying to us just before you came on
0:41:24 > 0:41:28that you are slightly apprehensive about how your new book
0:41:28 > 0:41:30is going to be received in Ireland.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32- Yeah. - Can you just explain that?
0:41:32 > 0:41:33Yeah, I am a bit because, em,
0:41:33 > 0:41:36anyone who is familiar with my work will know that everything I've
0:41:36 > 0:41:40written so far really has been historically based,
0:41:40 > 0:41:44not, I would say, controversial-type novels,
0:41:44 > 0:41:46and I've written a lot for young people as well
0:41:46 > 0:41:49and I've never written about Ireland, as I mentioned.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53I was saying to you earlier, Simon, that where I grew up, in Dublin,
0:41:53 > 0:41:55the parish priest lived next door to me on one side
0:41:55 > 0:41:59and eight nuns lived on the other side and...
0:41:59 > 0:42:02Irish writers have not tackled the issue of child abuse
0:42:02 > 0:42:05and the Catholic Church, they have steered away from it,
0:42:05 > 0:42:07and I always said I wouldn't write about Ireland
0:42:07 > 0:42:11until I had a story to tell and I felt this was the story
0:42:11 > 0:42:13I wanted to tell, but I mean, you know,
0:42:13 > 0:42:15it's a difficult subject to write about,
0:42:15 > 0:42:20it's a very emotive subject and I guess what I fear is that...
0:42:20 > 0:42:23I wanted to write a very balanced book where...
0:42:25 > 0:42:30..both the victims of child abuse and also those priests who did nothing...
0:42:30 > 0:42:33You know, there are good people in the world
0:42:33 > 0:42:36and not everybody can be tarred with the same brush.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38..where there would be a voice for everybody.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42So I guess what I'm apprehensive about is victims reading the book
0:42:42 > 0:42:45and feeling I haven't been hard enough on the Church
0:42:45 > 0:42:48and people who, in Ireland, are very devoted to the Church
0:42:48 > 0:42:51reading it and thinking that it's just an attack
0:42:51 > 0:42:56and if that is what comes out of it, I will feel like I've failed. So...
0:42:56 > 0:43:01Yeah, I am nervous and apprehensive, but in some way...it's good
0:43:01 > 0:43:04because I haven't been nervous and apprehensive about a book in a while
0:43:04 > 0:43:07and it's not a bad feeling to have in some ways.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09Is Father Yates the main character?
0:43:09 > 0:43:11- I'm sorry? - Is the father...?
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Father Yates, yes, he's the narrator of the book and he is... He is...
0:43:14 > 0:43:16He is a good priest, he's a guy who has...
0:43:16 > 0:43:19He's never done anything wrong... At least, this is how I started.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23We were talking earlier about, em, you start off with one idea
0:43:23 > 0:43:24and it become something else.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27I started off with the idea that this was going to be a good man
0:43:27 > 0:43:30who has never done anything wrong and has got to a point in his life,
0:43:30 > 0:43:33in his 60s, where he feels the institution has let him down,
0:43:33 > 0:43:35but actually, as I wrote it,
0:43:35 > 0:43:38I realised what the character was was actually somebody who was
0:43:38 > 0:43:42completely complicit in what was going on because he has seen it all.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45He has watched it happen in front of him and he has done nothing.
0:43:45 > 0:43:47And this is the main problem in Ireland,
0:43:47 > 0:43:50with the Church and the child-abuse scandals.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54It's that there are a lot of people who didn't actively commit a crime,
0:43:54 > 0:43:58but who knew exactly what was going on and did nothing
0:43:58 > 0:44:01and that goes all the way to the very top of the Church.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04People always say, you know, the Pope was definitely...
0:44:04 > 0:44:07Pope John Paul II, that's where it went to, you know,
0:44:07 > 0:44:09but it also went to the very bottom of the Church, you know,
0:44:09 > 0:44:12to the people who were just regular priests
0:44:12 > 0:44:14and who could see what was going on and did nothing
0:44:14 > 0:44:18and then whole generations of young people in Ireland
0:44:18 > 0:44:22have suffered from this, so a guy who I thought was going to be
0:44:22 > 0:44:25a narrator who you would like and who you would care about
0:44:25 > 0:44:28actually became somebody who, by the end of it,
0:44:28 > 0:44:32you feel is just very complicit in the actions of other people.
0:44:32 > 0:44:34- But it's such... Sorry, Simon. - Sorry.
0:44:34 > 0:44:37But it's just such an interesting thing with characters, isn't it?
0:44:37 > 0:44:39You know, that... We were talking about earlier,
0:44:39 > 0:44:41about the life being breathed into them.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43When you suddenly discover that the person
0:44:43 > 0:44:45who was going to be your goodie or your baddie
0:44:45 > 0:44:49actually turns out to be weak, not evil,
0:44:49 > 0:44:54or, em, just a little bit self-serving rather than bad
0:44:54 > 0:44:57and that can unbalance the whole novel, so...
0:44:57 > 0:44:58But it can also be one of
0:44:58 > 0:45:01the most exciting things, I think, about writing,
0:45:01 > 0:45:04when it becomes something completely different and you were asking,
0:45:04 > 0:45:07Joseph, earlier, about how can a character surprise you,
0:45:07 > 0:45:09but, gosh, if they don't surprise you as you're writing it,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11you are doing something wrong, you know. They should.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14And you might like to know that, this hasn't been announced yet,
0:45:14 > 0:45:17Joseph's new book is going to be a Radio 2 Book Club choice
0:45:17 > 0:45:19and John is going to be coming on the show
0:45:19 > 0:45:22and I'll be asking him exactly the same questions
0:45:22 > 0:45:25and he will be generous and change the answer slightly...
0:45:25 > 0:45:28But then you'll be able to say, "So, how did it go? What's the response?"
0:45:28 > 0:45:31And they'll be saying, "So, number one again, John?"
0:45:32 > 0:45:34Em... I...
0:45:34 > 0:45:36I have other questions, but I'm aware that you are
0:45:36 > 0:45:39an informed and educated audience and you wanted to be here
0:45:39 > 0:45:42and if you have any questions, now is the time to...
0:45:42 > 0:45:45As long as we haven't covered it already!
0:45:45 > 0:45:49So, you know, we have already tackled a few of the questions, I think,
0:45:49 > 0:45:51- right at the very beginning. - I don't know Wayne Rooney.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53LAUGHTER I'm not a supermodel.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57Yeah, and also, Boy In The Striped Pyjamas,
0:45:57 > 0:45:59you didn't see the film before you wrote the book?
0:45:59 > 0:46:00No, I didn't, no.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03There was... There was a version of Emma, wasn't there,
0:46:03 > 0:46:05that had sort of based on,
0:46:05 > 0:46:07you know, the film was sort of based on something
0:46:07 > 0:46:08and they'd got it the wrong way round,
0:46:08 > 0:46:11so it had implied that the film had come first.
0:46:11 > 0:46:13OK, we've got a question at the back.
0:46:13 > 0:46:15Can you say who you are, please, and then the question?
0:46:15 > 0:46:17Hi, my name is Juliet.
0:46:17 > 0:46:20I'm intrigued by the question about when you give up reading
0:46:20 > 0:46:22because I used to be a professional bookseller
0:46:22 > 0:46:28and so I had to sort of decide what I would and wouldn't continue reading.
0:46:28 > 0:46:31Three Day Road was one of the books I continued reading,
0:46:31 > 0:46:32thank you, Joseph.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35So I'd actually... I really want to put you on the spot
0:46:35 > 0:46:38and ask you what the last book you stopped reading was.
0:46:38 > 0:46:39- Oh! - Oh!
0:46:39 > 0:46:42Mine was Emma Donoghue's The Room,
0:46:42 > 0:46:46which I literally left on the Eurostar, I hated it that much.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49My guess is that you're not going to get very far with this question,
0:46:49 > 0:46:52- but anyway... Joseph? - I will freely admit
0:46:52 > 0:46:57it was Gone Girl. I read... I got... AUDIENCE MEMBERS SHOUT
0:46:57 > 0:47:00I got right to the point where she disappears and I'm like,
0:47:00 > 0:47:03"I'm not buying it." And so I put it down.
0:47:03 > 0:47:04I'm going to go back to it.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's worth it in the end.
0:47:06 > 0:47:08Don't! Don't say that!
0:47:08 > 0:47:11Who else has...? Did you give up on Gone Girl?
0:47:11 > 0:47:15I finished it. I'm a bookseller.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17I finished it, but I hated all the characters.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20OK, you... I just realised, of course, you need a microphone,
0:47:20 > 0:47:22otherwise the people who are watching us on the live stream
0:47:22 > 0:47:24are going to go, "I can't hear what you're saying!"
0:47:24 > 0:47:26Sorry. I... I'm a bookseller.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29I did finish Gone Girl,
0:47:29 > 0:47:31but I hated all the characters
0:47:31 > 0:47:33- and I wish I hadn't read it. - OK.
0:47:33 > 0:47:38It is a phenomenally successful book, we should say. So, Gone Girl.
0:47:38 > 0:47:39Joseph, good answer to...
0:47:39 > 0:47:42I didn't think we'd get a straightforward answer to this.
0:47:42 > 0:47:43- Kate Mosse? - I'm safe because I'd already said
0:47:43 > 0:47:46that I ploughed on to the end and I do.
0:47:46 > 0:47:49- You were always a goodie girl? - Oh, I...
0:47:49 > 0:47:52I always thought there would be a moment where I would become cool
0:47:52 > 0:47:54and would be a bad girl and it never...
0:47:54 > 0:47:57I just carried on doing my homework, basically, regardless.
0:47:57 > 0:48:00- John? - Oh, I really don't want to say.
0:48:00 > 0:48:02There was a book I read recently, which...
0:48:02 > 0:48:04It's not The Orenda, is it?
0:48:04 > 0:48:06- Pardon? - It's not The Orenda, is it?
0:48:06 > 0:48:07LAUGHTER
0:48:07 > 0:48:08Taxidermist's Daughter?
0:48:08 > 0:48:11..which was, you know, a highly literary book
0:48:11 > 0:48:14that has been very successful in many award ceremonies
0:48:14 > 0:48:17and I read it and I'm not going to name it because...
0:48:17 > 0:48:19I just wouldn't, but I read it
0:48:19 > 0:48:23and I just thought, "I do not get it. I do not see it."
0:48:23 > 0:48:26I thought there was sort of an emperor's new clothes thing to it.
0:48:26 > 0:48:29Who was the author again? KATE LAUGHS
0:48:29 > 0:48:33I'm not going to say his/her name. So, you know... But...
0:48:33 > 0:48:36I just didn't get it and I thought, "Is it just me?"
0:48:36 > 0:48:40And maybe it was just me, but... No, I'm just not going to name it.
0:48:40 > 0:48:41But it doesn't matter really, does it?
0:48:41 > 0:48:43- I'll tell you backstage. - Yeah, exactly.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46Yes, a fiver and I'll tell all of you and the live stream.
0:48:46 > 0:48:48But... But in a way, that...
0:48:48 > 0:48:51There's a wonderful book by Margaret Atwood called...
0:48:51 > 0:48:55Is it Negotiating With The Dead or Talking With The Dead?
0:48:55 > 0:48:58Two booksellers. Her book about writing. And it's wonderful.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00The last chapter is...
0:49:00 > 0:49:04It's not quite a spoof of Pilgrim's Progress, Bunyan,
0:49:04 > 0:49:05but it's exactly that
0:49:05 > 0:49:07and it's her talking to the little book -
0:49:07 > 0:49:09"Now it's your time to go out into the world
0:49:09 > 0:49:11"and I've given you your knapsack and everything on your back
0:49:11 > 0:49:14"and some people will like you and some people won't."
0:49:14 > 0:49:16And I think that is the joyous thing.
0:49:16 > 0:49:18In a way, the question is always the wrong one -
0:49:18 > 0:49:20"Do you LIKE that book or not?"
0:49:20 > 0:49:24Does it fit you? And if it doesn't, it doesn't matter, does it?
0:49:24 > 0:49:28You know, I... I think it's much better to just think in that way.
0:49:28 > 0:49:30Is there a fit between us?
0:49:30 > 0:49:31And when I'm writing, you know,
0:49:31 > 0:49:35I feel...the book is finished by the reader
0:49:35 > 0:49:38and the exciting bit about waiting for a book to come out
0:49:38 > 0:49:41is that the white space that you leave as a writer, in your book,
0:49:41 > 0:49:45is for the reader to participate in, so the minute you've got your book,
0:49:45 > 0:49:49it sits there and it belongs equally to the reader and to the writer
0:49:49 > 0:49:52and so it's just that, we won't all fit every reader
0:49:52 > 0:49:53and we won't all fit every writer.
0:49:53 > 0:49:55There is a lot of classic, great writers
0:49:55 > 0:49:57and classic novels that, you know,
0:49:57 > 0:50:00just haven't worked for... for you as a particular reader,
0:50:00 > 0:50:02but you recognise that they are great writers.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05For example, I have never been able to finish a Virginia Woolf novel,
0:50:05 > 0:50:06but I know that's just me.
0:50:06 > 0:50:08- I recognise that... - JOSEPH: It's not just you!
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Well, it might not just be me!
0:50:10 > 0:50:13But, you know, I wouldn't sit here and say Virginia Woolf is rubbish.
0:50:13 > 0:50:17I know it's just not... She's just not a writer that I can...
0:50:17 > 0:50:19I'd read a sentence and I don't even know what it means.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21You know, I just... I get completely lost.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23There always The Lighthouse, just remember.
0:50:23 > 0:50:26I've tried a few times, I just don't get it!
0:50:26 > 0:50:29Anyone else with a question before we run out of time?
0:50:29 > 0:50:31Anyone got anything that they are desperate to ask?
0:50:31 > 0:50:33Yes, gentleman there?
0:50:33 > 0:50:36Can you say who you are first, please, sir, and then your question?
0:50:36 > 0:50:39Yes, my name is Fred Chorlton. Em...
0:50:39 > 0:50:45I saw Diana Rigg this afternoon and she had asked a lot of famous
0:50:45 > 0:50:50of her compatriots and colleagues to relate their worst notices.
0:50:50 > 0:50:56I wondered if the panel here may dare to relate theirs
0:50:56 > 0:50:59and also what do they feel about critiques anyway.
0:50:59 > 0:51:04OK, so, Diana Rigg has built her entire show out of terrible reviews,
0:51:04 > 0:51:08so would you, as a nice, positive way to conclude...
0:51:08 > 0:51:10LAUGHTER
0:51:10 > 0:51:12So, it's a two-part question.
0:51:12 > 0:51:13What do you think of the reviews
0:51:13 > 0:51:16and what is the worst one you've ever had? Kate Mosse.
0:51:16 > 0:51:18Well, em, I'm glad to say
0:51:18 > 0:51:22that I am not somebody who learns off by heart the bad reviews
0:51:22 > 0:51:24and actors absolutely do.
0:51:24 > 0:51:28You know, they can quote every sort of piece of vitriol
0:51:28 > 0:51:29that drips from a pen.
0:51:29 > 0:51:34I stay away from reviews until my skin has grown back again
0:51:34 > 0:51:37and I think that however successful you are or feel you are,
0:51:37 > 0:51:41at the point a book is coming out you feel nervous and failed
0:51:41 > 0:51:45and a bit stripped raw and so I stay away utterly from reviews
0:51:45 > 0:51:49when a book is published because they bubble up after a while.
0:51:49 > 0:51:51But there was one that I loved
0:51:51 > 0:51:54but everybody else thought I should have been offended by,
0:51:54 > 0:51:59which was when my novel Labyrinth came out in 2005.
0:51:59 > 0:52:02It was described, I thought, in a really -
0:52:02 > 0:52:03and it was a very positive review -
0:52:03 > 0:52:06as that it was chick lit for girls with A levels.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09LAUGHTER And I thought that was great!
0:52:09 > 0:52:11But everyone was going, "God, that's really insulting."
0:52:11 > 0:52:14So, even there, you see, you can't choose.
0:52:14 > 0:52:17I should... I should say that an awful lot of authors
0:52:17 > 0:52:19would just be thrilled to be reviewed, period.
0:52:19 > 0:52:23Because so many newspapers and magazines are just giving
0:52:23 > 0:52:25less and less space to any kind of reviews,
0:52:25 > 0:52:27particularly if you write for children.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30Some of them just don't bother at all, so it may well be that
0:52:30 > 0:52:33many authors go, "I've never had any reviews, so I don't really..."
0:52:33 > 0:52:35I know John has had plenty of reviews, so...
0:52:35 > 0:52:37I thought you were going to say, "I know John has had
0:52:37 > 0:52:39- "a lot of bad reviews." - No, no, no!
0:52:39 > 0:52:41- He's ideal to...! - I kind of sidestepped.
0:52:41 > 0:52:43So, what do you think about reviews
0:52:43 > 0:52:44- and your worst...? - No, I've got...
0:52:44 > 0:52:47I love this question because I have never been asked this before
0:52:47 > 0:52:49and I think it's a really good question.
0:52:49 > 0:52:52I've got two for you and they are both for the same book
0:52:52 > 0:52:54and they are both for The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas
0:52:54 > 0:52:57and the first one was, when I wrote it first and gave it to my agent,
0:52:57 > 0:52:59because it was my first book for young people,
0:52:59 > 0:53:02it was given to a children's agent who read it and came back
0:53:02 > 0:53:05and said that she had been representing children's books
0:53:05 > 0:53:08for about 30 years, had read tens of thousands of them
0:53:08 > 0:53:09and this was, without doubt,
0:53:09 > 0:53:11the worst book she had ever read in her life.
0:53:11 > 0:53:15No-one will buy it, no-one will publish it and that if my agent...
0:53:15 > 0:53:17My agent would not give it to his son
0:53:17 > 0:53:19who was around the same age at the time.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22So that was pretty... That was... That was good.
0:53:22 > 0:53:24And then, before the book came out,
0:53:24 > 0:53:26in the run-up to the publication,
0:53:26 > 0:53:28I was very excited about that book,
0:53:28 > 0:53:31I really thought it was going to do something for my life
0:53:31 > 0:53:34and the week before it was published,
0:53:34 > 0:53:37the very first review went into the Times, the UK Times,
0:53:37 > 0:53:41and I don't remember any good lines of any good reviews
0:53:41 > 0:53:42that have ever been there for my books,
0:53:42 > 0:53:47but I remember this and it called it "a novel of blush-making vulgarity."
0:53:47 > 0:53:48KATE GASPS
0:53:48 > 0:53:52And I always thought that... There is for the paperback.
0:53:52 > 0:53:54"A novel of blush-making vulgarity."
0:53:54 > 0:53:58Six million copies sold, New York Times number-one bestseller
0:53:58 > 0:53:59- and a movie. - Well, so...
0:53:59 > 0:54:02But, you know, why not say it?
0:54:02 > 0:54:04You know, it's a good question and...
0:54:04 > 0:54:06Joseph, what do you think about reviews and bad ones?
0:54:06 > 0:54:08I love them when they are good.
0:54:10 > 0:54:11Er...
0:54:11 > 0:54:14You've got to take them with a grain of salt.
0:54:14 > 0:54:19I think the worst review I ever got was by a Canadian writer,
0:54:19 > 0:54:22with my first story collection, said that I'm a great example
0:54:22 > 0:54:28of what he was trying to coin as McCanlit, McCanadian lit, so...
0:54:28 > 0:54:29And then I found out...
0:54:29 > 0:54:31I was like, "Why did he think that about this book?",
0:54:31 > 0:54:36because this was as not-that as you can possibly see, I would think,
0:54:36 > 0:54:39but then I got to become friends with him and he, one night,
0:54:39 > 0:54:41drunkenly admitted to me,
0:54:41 > 0:54:43"I didn't even read your book when I reviewed it.
0:54:43 > 0:54:46"I was under a deadline, I didn't read it."
0:54:46 > 0:54:47- SIMON: That's terrible! - Yeah, it's terrible,
0:54:47 > 0:54:48but you know what, I...
0:54:48 > 0:54:50But that happens all the time, doesn't it?
0:54:50 > 0:54:53What, you mean people review books without actually reading them?
0:54:53 > 0:54:57It... It's not unheard of. You know, they read the beginning, middle, end.
0:54:57 > 0:55:03Yeah. And he... He freely admitted. Cos I asked him directly. He said...
0:55:03 > 0:55:06He used an example of a character
0:55:06 > 0:55:08who was what's called a shape-shifter in Ojibwe,
0:55:08 > 0:55:11somebody who can become a crow or...
0:55:11 > 0:55:15that can change, literally, from a person into an animal
0:55:15 > 0:55:20and he was saying that this character was a great example of...something.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23I said, "But this character is a shape-shifter."
0:55:23 > 0:55:26He was like, "Oh." And then he proceeded to admit.
0:55:26 > 0:55:33No, one of the worst reviews ever was for Emily Bronte, Wuthering Heights.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36And, of course, they had kept their identities secret
0:55:36 > 0:55:38and it was always thought
0:55:38 > 0:55:40that Emily Bronte lived so totally outside of the world
0:55:40 > 0:55:42that she wouldn't actually mind about the reactions
0:55:42 > 0:55:44and it was this heartbreaking thing
0:55:44 > 0:55:45that when she died, some of the reviews
0:55:45 > 0:55:49were clipped out and in her desk and they were found by her sisters.
0:55:49 > 0:55:51But there was one,
0:55:51 > 0:55:53when it became clear that it had been written by a woman,
0:55:53 > 0:55:56that said that the book was so appalling,
0:55:56 > 0:55:59I can't remember the exact thing, that if they had written it,
0:55:59 > 0:56:01they would feel that the author should kill themselves.
0:56:01 > 0:56:03And I feel that really is a bad review.
0:56:03 > 0:56:06It's so bad, you should kill yourself.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08No, you really can't go further than that.
0:56:08 > 0:56:11- That's about as bad as it gets. - That's as bad as it gets!
0:56:11 > 0:56:12In the good old days.
0:56:12 > 0:56:14The good old days, back in the 19th century.
0:56:14 > 0:56:17We are completely out of time and we're about to get replaced by the...
0:56:17 > 0:56:20Lady Boys Of Bangkok or something like that, so...
0:56:20 > 0:56:22Were you not asked to stay on for that?
0:56:22 > 0:56:26Oh, yes, that's right, that's the next job, I didn't mention that.
0:56:26 > 0:56:30Joseph Boyden, Kate Mosse, John Boyne, thank you very much indeed.
0:56:30 > 0:56:31Thank you very much for coming.
0:56:31 > 0:56:34Thank you very much indeed for your questions.
0:56:34 > 0:56:37APPLAUSE