0:00:11 > 0:00:15Sir Anthony Sher is one of our most distinguished Shakespearean actors
0:00:15 > 0:00:18and he's had a long and varied career.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21In the early 1980s, he made a splash on stage
0:00:21 > 0:00:23in Mike Leigh's play Goose-Pimples,
0:00:23 > 0:00:26and on screen as a sleazy womaniser
0:00:26 > 0:00:29in the television version of The History Man.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32You'll have to let me save you from yourself.
0:00:32 > 0:00:33In the decades since,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36he's been a mainstay of the Royal Shakespeare Company
0:00:36 > 0:00:38and a regular on the London stage.
0:00:39 > 0:00:44But he's also found time to write plays, memoirs and four novels.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50Gregory Doran began his career as an actor but soon turned to directing,
0:00:50 > 0:00:53first at the Nottingham Playhouse
0:00:53 > 0:00:55and later at the RSC.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59Since he became the RSC's artistic director in 2012,
0:00:59 > 0:01:03his hits have included David Tennant as Richard II
0:01:03 > 0:01:05and as a memorable Hamlet.
0:01:05 > 0:01:06Vengeance!
0:01:07 > 0:01:12Greg first directed Tony in Titus Andronicus in 1995
0:01:12 > 0:01:14and, over the two decades since,
0:01:14 > 0:01:17they've worked together on another nine plays,
0:01:17 > 0:01:20including Macbeth and Death Of A Salesman.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23In 2005, they celebrated their civil partnership
0:01:23 > 0:01:27on the first day that that became legal.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29Next year, they will collaborate
0:01:29 > 0:01:32on one of Shakespeare's greatest tragedies, King Lear.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37APPLAUSE
0:01:40 > 0:01:41Ladies and gentlemen,
0:01:41 > 0:01:43thank you for that great welcome
0:01:43 > 0:01:45for Sir Antony Sher and Gregory Doran.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47What I'd like to start by establishing
0:01:47 > 0:01:50is that we're going to talk about
0:01:50 > 0:01:53the ten productions that you've done together,
0:01:53 > 0:01:54with one still to come,
0:01:54 > 0:01:57which we'll also talk about but not too much, let's keep them waiting.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00I'd like to take you back ten years
0:02:00 > 0:02:04to when you cemented your personal relationship
0:02:04 > 0:02:06with a civil partnership.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10Now, I wonder how that affected your professional relationship,
0:02:10 > 0:02:14did it make it awkward at all? Greg?
0:02:14 > 0:02:17I don't think so.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19We had been working together...
0:02:19 > 0:02:23We've been together 28 years now
0:02:23 > 0:02:26and, for ten years before we had our civil partnership,
0:02:26 > 0:02:29we had been working, we'd started...
0:02:29 > 0:02:32I started directing Tony in 1995.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36I suppose the one area
0:02:36 > 0:02:39where questions were asked
0:02:39 > 0:02:43was when the directorship of the RSC came up first time
0:02:43 > 0:02:48and I was up for the job that time
0:02:48 > 0:02:50and it felt...
0:02:50 > 0:02:51I think there was a sense
0:02:51 > 0:02:55that maybe I would just be casting my civil partner.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58What's your perspective?
0:02:58 > 0:03:02I've been working for the RSC
0:03:02 > 0:03:06for about 30-odd years,
0:03:06 > 0:03:08I joined in '82.
0:03:08 > 0:03:13And it's pretty much been the main part of my career.
0:03:13 > 0:03:18So, long before Greg had anything to do with running the place,
0:03:18 > 0:03:22I had been playing a string of leading roles there
0:03:22 > 0:03:25on and off for 30 years.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28It would have been very odd if,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31when he did or didn't get the job,
0:03:31 > 0:03:33I had stopped doing that, you know?
0:03:33 > 0:03:35I was established there already,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38so I don't think it made any difference.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40It didn't really make much difference.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43And, Greg, you got "the big job" three years ago.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45Did that change things at all?
0:03:45 > 0:03:49Were you cautious about casting Tony in big roles?
0:03:49 > 0:03:53Not really. In fact, as it turned out,
0:03:53 > 0:03:57we weren't going to be working together until next year,
0:03:57 > 0:03:58until King Lear.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01Erm, and...
0:04:01 > 0:04:04He wasn't... I hadn't cast him as Falstaff,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07I was doing the tetralogy,
0:04:07 > 0:04:09the Shakespeare tetralogy first.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13And, indeed, I wasn't meant to be directing Death Of A Salesman,
0:04:13 > 0:04:19so it just happened that I directed him in those three,
0:04:19 > 0:04:20and who wouldn't?
0:04:20 > 0:04:22Because he's a major...
0:04:22 > 0:04:27One of the major actors and had been at the RSC since 1982,
0:04:27 > 0:04:30so why wouldn't I use one of our great associate actors?
0:04:30 > 0:04:33And it hasn't really been an issue, obviously.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35You mentioned the tetralogy,
0:04:35 > 0:04:38and I know you've come from Stratford today,
0:04:38 > 0:04:41where you are rehearsing the last one in the tetralogy.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43The tetralogy - the rest of us would call it
0:04:43 > 0:04:47four Shakespeare history plays.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50Which are Henry... Richard II,
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Henry IV Parts 1 and 2,
0:04:53 > 0:04:54and Henry V.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56You're rehearsing Henry V,
0:04:56 > 0:04:59and you've missed a preview to be with us tonight,
0:04:59 > 0:05:02- so we're very flattered.- Thank you.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Actors always like the director to not see at least one preview.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07LAUGHTER
0:05:07 > 0:05:09I find it's where they try things out
0:05:09 > 0:05:12that they wouldn't dare to do in front of me.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16Well, now, that leads us very nicely into our first clip of the evening,
0:05:16 > 0:05:18which is from Henry IV Part 1
0:05:18 > 0:05:21and, of course, it's...
0:05:21 > 0:05:25As Falstaff is sitting with us, it involves Mr Falstaff.
0:05:25 > 0:05:26Let's see it.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29Speak, sirs, how was it?
0:05:29 > 0:05:32LAUGHTER
0:05:32 > 0:05:36We four set upon some dozen...
0:05:36 > 0:05:39- 16 at least, my lord. - And bound them.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41- No, no, they were not bound. - You rogue,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43they were bound, every man of them.
0:05:43 > 0:05:48As we're sharing, some six or seven fresh men set on us.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50And unbound the rest
0:05:50 > 0:05:52- and then come in the other.- What?
0:05:52 > 0:05:53Fought you with them all?
0:05:53 > 0:05:56All? I know not what ye call all
0:05:56 > 0:05:58but if I fought not with 50 of them...
0:06:00 > 0:06:02..I am a bunch of radish.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05Pray God, you have not murdered some of them?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08Nay, that's fast praying for, I have peppered two of them,
0:06:08 > 0:06:13two I'm sure I have paid, two rogues in buckram suits.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15I tell you what, Hal,
0:06:15 > 0:06:19if I tell thee a lie, spit in my face
0:06:19 > 0:06:20and call me horse.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25APPLAUSE
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Of course you are Sir John Falstaff,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37and that was Alex Hassell as Prince Hal.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41- Yes.- Now, you got that part, really,
0:06:41 > 0:06:42thanks to Ian McKellen.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45I think I read that somewhere.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47Yes, that's right. For years...
0:06:47 > 0:06:49It's all his fault.
0:06:49 > 0:06:50It's all his fault, yes.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56Greg was planning to do the Henry IVs
0:06:56 > 0:07:00and, I guess, you have to start by casting Falstaff,
0:07:00 > 0:07:04it's the kind of crucial and the hardest part.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07So, for years, literally a couple of years,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10he would discuss with me
0:07:10 > 0:07:13ideas for Falstaff over lunch
0:07:13 > 0:07:14in a restaurant, or whatever.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16He'd say, "What about so-and-so?"
0:07:16 > 0:07:19I'd go, "Yeah, that's good."
0:07:19 > 0:07:22And there was absolutely no subtext.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26I had never dreamed of playing this part,
0:07:26 > 0:07:29it was not on my agenda.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31That does seem weird, actually.
0:07:31 > 0:07:33You didn't see yourself as Falstaff?
0:07:33 > 0:07:37I just couldn't see it at all. And you then had a meeting with...
0:07:37 > 0:07:40I'd been talking to a number of actors,
0:07:40 > 0:07:43including Ian McKellen, and said, you know,
0:07:43 > 0:07:45"Would you come back to Stratford?"
0:07:45 > 0:07:49and why had he never thought of playing Falstaff?
0:07:49 > 0:07:50You know.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53You have to wear padding to play Falstaff.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56- He's a bit thin to play Falstaff. - A bit thin for it, maybe.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00But he said to me, "No, no, it's not my part,"
0:08:00 > 0:08:01and we discussed that a bit.
0:08:01 > 0:08:02And then he said,
0:08:02 > 0:08:06"Why are you looking for Falstaff when you live with him?"
0:08:06 > 0:08:09LAUGHTER
0:08:09 > 0:08:10APPLAUSE
0:08:12 > 0:08:14Now, I should just explain
0:08:14 > 0:08:17that Ian was making reference to a performance of mine
0:08:17 > 0:08:20that he'd seen at the National Theatre
0:08:20 > 0:08:22in a play called Travelling Light,
0:08:22 > 0:08:28a play which is set a Jewish shtetl round about 1900.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32And I played a character called Jacob,
0:08:32 > 0:08:36who was a very ebullient, larger-than-life character
0:08:36 > 0:08:38who, I guess, in retrospect,
0:08:38 > 0:08:42could have been Falstaff's Jewish cousin.
0:08:43 > 0:08:48So Ian had seen that and liked that, and that's the reference,
0:08:48 > 0:08:52just in case you think that I'm otherwise like Falstaff.
0:08:53 > 0:08:58I'm sure Greg saw you as Falstaff before YOU did,
0:08:58 > 0:09:01but you've written somewhere, Tony,
0:09:01 > 0:09:05that when you first try to get to grips with a Shakespearean character,
0:09:05 > 0:09:09that it's like, for you, looking into a darkened room
0:09:09 > 0:09:11through a glass window
0:09:11 > 0:09:13and all you can see is your own reflection.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17This is because...
0:09:17 > 0:09:22I was taught Shakespeare badly at school in South Africa.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26I guess a lot of people are taught Shakespeare badly,
0:09:26 > 0:09:29or not in an inspiring way.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32I didn't go to university,
0:09:32 > 0:09:35we did a bit of Shakespeare at drama school,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39so I really didn't start to learn about Shakespeare
0:09:39 > 0:09:44until I joined the RSC in 1982.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48And I joined at a time - It was an incredibly lucky thing -
0:09:48 > 0:09:52at that time there was still John Barton,
0:09:52 > 0:09:57the great Shakespeare teacher and director,
0:09:57 > 0:10:01Cic Berry, the RSC's great voice guru.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05- Who is still there doing her work. - Still working.- Amazing.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09And they were both doing workshops with the company
0:10:09 > 0:10:12to teach us all about speaking Shakespeare.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14I mean, how lucky do you get?
0:10:14 > 0:10:17We should have been paying THEM,
0:10:17 > 0:10:20instead of being on salary,
0:10:20 > 0:10:23and yet it was just part of being at the RSC.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27And part of being at the RSC, Greg, of course, is,
0:10:27 > 0:10:30it goes without saying, you are dealing with an ensemble,
0:10:30 > 0:10:34not only of actors but of super-technical people.
0:10:34 > 0:10:39And that is a little bit of a comfort zone, is it, for you?
0:10:39 > 0:10:42You feel you know everybody that you're working with
0:10:42 > 0:10:43at whatever level?
0:10:43 > 0:10:46I do, and I've been very lucky from that point of view.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Starting at the RSC as an actor,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52moving on to being an assistant director,
0:10:52 > 0:10:54to be an associate director,
0:10:54 > 0:10:56so I've been on both sides of the footlights, if you like.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00And I think that's been very helpful.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04But I guess it's entirely developed the way
0:11:04 > 0:11:06I choose to work with a company,
0:11:06 > 0:11:11which is an intense exploration of the text together
0:11:11 > 0:11:13that everybody... We share it.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16- This is how you start your rehearsals?- It is.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19- Sitting in a circle. Yes. - And nobody says their own lines.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22David Tennant playing Hamlet found this very difficult
0:11:22 > 0:11:24as we worked around, for a couple of weeks,
0:11:24 > 0:11:26going through the text
0:11:26 > 0:11:28and everybody put it into their own words.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30So they paraphrased a bit.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33Yeah, so it meant that everybody had a sense of ownership,
0:11:33 > 0:11:38a kind of investment in the production, and I know that that...
0:11:38 > 0:11:42The two shows that I started in as an actor at Stratford,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45one of them I felt entirely invested in
0:11:45 > 0:11:47because I had been invited to be part of it,
0:11:47 > 0:11:50and the other I sort of didn't really know what I was doing,
0:11:50 > 0:11:52I didn't really know what I was saying.
0:11:52 > 0:11:56And, Tony, how do you deal with this process of rehearsal when Greg's...
0:11:56 > 0:11:59to use a crude word, sort of bossing people around?
0:11:59 > 0:12:01I'm sure he's much too nice to do that.
0:12:01 > 0:12:06Do you...? Your personal relationship doesn't come into it?
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Are you sort of careful to be as...
0:12:09 > 0:12:13To answer back as some of the other actors are?
0:12:13 > 0:12:17We had to learn how to work together,
0:12:17 > 0:12:22and that happened on a production of Titus Andronicus
0:12:22 > 0:12:26that was at the Market Theatre in Johannesburg
0:12:26 > 0:12:29and then came to the National Theatre
0:12:29 > 0:12:32and West Yorkshire Playhouse.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35That was our baptism by fire
0:12:35 > 0:12:39where we learned, on that production,
0:12:39 > 0:12:43that you have to leave the work in the rehearsal room.
0:12:43 > 0:12:44That, in the rehearsal room,
0:12:44 > 0:12:48I can interact, like any of the actors can, with Greg,
0:12:48 > 0:12:51and I can agree or disagree
0:12:51 > 0:12:54and ideas will happen creatively.
0:12:54 > 0:13:00But you absolutely have to leave that work in the rehearsal room
0:13:00 > 0:13:05and go home and resume having your best friend, your partner.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07- A normal life.- A normal life.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10But he wouldn't, Sue. He just wouldn't do it.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13LAUGHTER
0:13:13 > 0:13:15- On Titus.- On Titus.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17Oh, well, we're coming to Titus now, actually.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19You've led us very neatly in,
0:13:19 > 0:13:22because that was 1995, 20 years ago.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25First production, as you say, that you did together.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27We've got a clip from it, which is...
0:13:27 > 0:13:28And you were Titus.
0:13:28 > 0:13:33..which is Titus'...big, macho general's first entrance.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Hail, Rome.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09Victorious in thy mourning weeds.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15Lo, as the bark that hath discharged her fraught
0:14:15 > 0:14:18returns with precious jading
0:14:18 > 0:14:23to the bay from whence that first she weigh'd her anchorage.
0:14:23 > 0:14:25Cometh, Andronicus,
0:14:25 > 0:14:29bound with laurel boughs,
0:14:29 > 0:14:32to re-salute his country
0:14:32 > 0:14:33with his tears.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40Tears of true joy for his return to Rome.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45Thou great defender of this Capitol,
0:14:45 > 0:14:48stand gracious to the rights that we intend.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52APPLAUSE
0:14:55 > 0:14:59Now, Titus Andronicus must be Shakespeare's bloodiest play,
0:14:59 > 0:15:01or certainly close to being that.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04Hands get chopped off, there's a lot of blood about.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07A lot of people faint and have to rush out.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11Whose idea was it to play it at the Market Theatre in Johannesburg?
0:15:11 > 0:15:13Yours, presumably, Tony, was it?
0:15:13 > 0:15:17No, we had been out together on a cultural visit
0:15:17 > 0:15:21from the National Theatre Studio,
0:15:21 > 0:15:26where they took a group of actors, writers, Rich Dyer came along,
0:15:26 > 0:15:31all sorts of people, to do talks, lectures, workshops.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34And while we were there,
0:15:34 > 0:15:37we did a series of workshops
0:15:37 > 0:15:40investigating what Shakespeare sounded like
0:15:40 > 0:15:42in South African accents.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46Because South African actors had an assumption that,
0:15:46 > 0:15:50in order to speak Shakespeare, you had to speak posh.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54And so we did this experiment,
0:15:54 > 0:15:59and it sounded wonderful in the different accents of South Africa.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01And they would be black accents and white accents.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04Black accents and white accents.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09And so, while we were there, Barney Simon, the great...
0:16:09 > 0:16:12Who created, co-created the Market Theatre,
0:16:12 > 0:16:16asked us if we'd like to come back and do a production,
0:16:16 > 0:16:19- and it was your idea, actually. - Was it?- Yes.- Oh.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21To do Titus,
0:16:21 > 0:16:26precisely because of the violence.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29I must tell you about that very moment,
0:16:29 > 0:16:33because this is Tony's first professional appearance as an actor
0:16:33 > 0:16:35in his own home country.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38And the first lines he says as Titus, as you hear, are,
0:16:38 > 0:16:42"Cometh, Andronicus, bound with laurel boughs,
0:16:42 > 0:16:45"to re-salute his country with his tears."
0:16:45 > 0:16:49This was a very potent moment, and we'd had this great moment
0:16:49 > 0:16:52of the Goths dragging on this bombed-out Jeep,
0:16:52 > 0:16:54a sort of great triumphal entry,
0:16:54 > 0:16:58which was very hard to make it not look like triumphal parking.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01LAUGHTER
0:17:01 > 0:17:05But, on the first night - there were no previews,
0:17:05 > 0:17:09just the first night - the car went wrong
0:17:09 > 0:17:13and smashed into the back wall of the Market Theatre instead.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16But without batting an eyelid, he came straight off the truck,
0:17:16 > 0:17:18came down to the front and said,
0:17:18 > 0:17:20"Cometh, Andronicus, bound with laurel boughs."
0:17:20 > 0:17:25But Shakespeare, Greg, is famously adaptable to all cultures,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27maybe not in South Africa,
0:17:27 > 0:17:29but maybe with a bit of time
0:17:29 > 0:17:31you could achieve that.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34How have you played him
0:17:34 > 0:17:38in cultures other than South African or British
0:17:38 > 0:17:41where he's worked very well?
0:17:41 > 0:17:46Do you know...because he somehow has a universality...
0:17:46 > 0:17:51It's because he sees us from 360 degrees
0:17:51 > 0:17:53and it doesn't matter.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56He transcends all those boundaries, I think.
0:17:56 > 0:18:01You know, I've directed Shakespeare in Japan, in Nigeria, in America,
0:18:01 > 0:18:07in the West Indies, and people always say, "He's talking about us."
0:18:07 > 0:18:09I can't define what that is,
0:18:09 > 0:18:13but that is his extraordinary genius.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17Some people think, and I think Julian Fellowes is one of them -
0:18:17 > 0:18:18Downton Abbey, Julian Fellowes -
0:18:18 > 0:18:22that Shakespeare is a bit difficult sometimes for "other cultures",
0:18:22 > 0:18:24and that he should be simplified.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28And he did a Romeo And Juliet film... Tony, you're shaking your head.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31I'm sorry, I get very upset by this.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34It's nonsense, it's complete...
0:18:34 > 0:18:37Julian said that you need a university degree
0:18:37 > 0:18:41to understand Shakespeare - I'm sorry, that's nonsense.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45Sorry, Julian. If you're watching, sorry, it's nonsense.
0:18:45 > 0:18:46LAUGHTER
0:18:46 > 0:18:48APPLAUSE
0:18:52 > 0:18:56I never went to university, but my job as a Shakespeare actor -
0:18:56 > 0:18:58and I've done a lot of them now -
0:18:58 > 0:19:03is to work hard on conveying the meaning,
0:19:03 > 0:19:08and we do that partly by sitting round the circle and translating.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Greg is known for the clarity, if I may say so in his presence,
0:19:11 > 0:19:13the clarity of his productions.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16You never are unaware of what's going on.
0:19:16 > 0:19:17Yup.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20On a film like that Romeo And Juliet,
0:19:20 > 0:19:25the actors would barely get a chance to rehearse, if at all.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29They would turn up on the set like you do with most films
0:19:29 > 0:19:31and you would start filming.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35They would never have gone through the process that we do
0:19:35 > 0:19:38in a rehearsal room in Stratford.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42So it's not a university degree you need,
0:19:42 > 0:19:46it's the craft of speaking Shakespeare,
0:19:46 > 0:19:50which we, at the RSC, work very hard at.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55It is a craft, and I think it does take a lot of hard work to do it.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Nobody's pretending that it's easy
0:19:58 > 0:20:02but, in the mouths of actors who know how to do it,
0:20:02 > 0:20:04it should be absolutely easy to understand.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08Is it sometimes a question of just hitting the right word in every line?
0:20:08 > 0:20:10It is, and not over-stressing.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Young actors tend to go,
0:20:12 > 0:20:17"To BE...or NOT to BE."
0:20:17 > 0:20:20And you get sort of battered by nuance.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22Well, we'll move on to one of Shakespeare's plays
0:20:22 > 0:20:24which is considered to be
0:20:24 > 0:20:27one of his most difficult to perform convincingly,
0:20:27 > 0:20:29The Winter's Tale.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31Tony, you played Leontes,
0:20:31 > 0:20:34who was prone to fits of irrational jealousy,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38not unique in this play, for Shakespeare, of course.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40But we'll see a clip now
0:20:40 > 0:20:43showing you losing your rag
0:20:43 > 0:20:46because you are convinced your wife is being unfaithful.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53I have drunk and seen the spider.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02Camillo was his help in this, his pander.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06All's true that is mistrusted.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09How came the posterns so easily open?
0:21:09 > 0:21:12By his great authority which often hath no less prevail'd
0:21:12 > 0:21:14- than so on your command. - I know't too well.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18There is a plot against my life, my crown.
0:21:19 > 0:21:21Give me the boy.
0:21:21 > 0:21:23I am glad you did not nurse him:
0:21:23 > 0:21:25Though he does bear some signs of me,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28yet you have too much blood in him.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30What is this? Sport?
0:21:30 > 0:21:34Bear the boy hence, he shall not come about her. Away with him!
0:21:34 > 0:21:35SHE SCREAMS
0:21:35 > 0:21:38And let her sport herself with that she's big with.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42For 'tis Polixenes has made thee swell thus.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46APPLAUSE
0:21:50 > 0:21:54And there we saw Alexandra Gilbreath as Hermione.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57What is it that makes Winter's Tale difficult?
0:21:57 > 0:21:59Is it the behaviour of Leontes?
0:21:59 > 0:22:05He does start at full pelt in his jealousy. That is difficult.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08I think there's the fairytale element to it
0:22:08 > 0:22:09that is quite difficult.
0:22:09 > 0:22:14As soon as you think you've found a sort of...a setting,
0:22:14 > 0:22:16or a way to play the play -
0:22:16 > 0:22:20and we set it in a sort of Romanov Russia,
0:22:20 > 0:22:23as it were, for Sicilia -
0:22:23 > 0:22:26something will pop out because there weren't...
0:22:26 > 0:22:30The oracle at Delphi wasn't apparent in that society,
0:22:30 > 0:22:33or something won't work.
0:22:33 > 0:22:34But what is at the heart of it
0:22:34 > 0:22:38is this very real exploration of human psychology,
0:22:38 > 0:22:41and you discovered something about that, didn't you?
0:22:41 > 0:22:46This is an example of where research can just be invaluable.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50Because there's this irrational jealousy
0:22:50 > 0:22:52that this character has to have.
0:22:52 > 0:22:57And I went round and talked to all sorts of psychiatrists,
0:22:57 > 0:22:59psychologists, various people,
0:22:59 > 0:23:01and eventually found someone
0:23:01 > 0:23:05and I described what happens to Leontes in the play
0:23:05 > 0:23:06and she said,
0:23:06 > 0:23:11"Ah, he's got what's called either morbid or sexual jealousy."
0:23:11 > 0:23:14It's called one or the other,
0:23:14 > 0:23:18which is a very familiar syndrome
0:23:18 > 0:23:20where, exactly, symptom by symptom,
0:23:20 > 0:23:25the character develops this irrational jealousy
0:23:25 > 0:23:30that their partner is having an affair when the partner isn't.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34And it can lead to violence or even murder.
0:23:34 > 0:23:39Now, although I couldn't tell the audience
0:23:39 > 0:23:42that this syndrome actually exists,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45that it isn't Shakespeare being fanciful,
0:23:45 > 0:23:48just by me discovering that,
0:23:48 > 0:23:52by me being able to invest that reality into it,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55by me being able to share that with you
0:23:55 > 0:23:59and with the other members of the cast,
0:23:59 > 0:24:05something happened that no longer made the behaviour absurd.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09That, somehow, we could see him as a sick person
0:24:09 > 0:24:13who was undergoing this mental trauma,
0:24:13 > 0:24:14and it made all the difference.
0:24:14 > 0:24:18I'd like to talk to you both about the way Shakespeare is spoken
0:24:18 > 0:24:22and the vocal demands his language makes on actors.
0:24:22 > 0:24:28There's a lot of complaints these days about mumbling actors.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31And it's put down to the fact
0:24:31 > 0:24:33that a lot of them come on as stars
0:24:33 > 0:24:36from some other production on television
0:24:36 > 0:24:38and aren't used to projecting their voices.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Is this becoming more of a problem in the theatre,
0:24:41 > 0:24:42in the classical theatre?
0:24:42 > 0:24:46It is a problem, but it's not an insoluble problem.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49I think what...
0:24:49 > 0:24:53What the actors come to learn with Shakespeare
0:24:53 > 0:24:59is that you don't have to apply an idea of your character to the lines.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02A character is how they speak.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04So a character like Leontes,
0:25:04 > 0:25:09his jealousy is conveyed in the way he puts words together.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13So, at one point, even if you don't quite understand it, he says,
0:25:13 > 0:25:16"Inch-thick, knee-deep
0:25:16 > 0:25:18"o'er head and ears, a fork'd one!"
0:25:18 > 0:25:21And what you hear is this descent,
0:25:21 > 0:25:24this violent, angry, nettled descent
0:25:24 > 0:25:27into a kind of fury of jealousy.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29And I think if... Once the actors -
0:25:29 > 0:25:32and I find this really, genuinely happens -
0:25:32 > 0:25:36once the actors really begin to relish that language
0:25:36 > 0:25:41and see how many clues Shakespeare's put into the text for you to use,
0:25:41 > 0:25:44or not use, as you choose,
0:25:44 > 0:25:48then that problem tends to disappear.
0:25:48 > 0:25:52And audibility is often down to, you mentioned,
0:25:52 > 0:25:57a couple of very wonderful voice coaches, Cicely Berry is one of them.
0:25:57 > 0:26:01And they work on actors to make them heard.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04Absolutely, and there's another whole element to this,
0:26:04 > 0:26:08which is that Shakespeare's plays
0:26:08 > 0:26:09are shared with the audience.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11What I mean by that is,
0:26:11 > 0:26:14it's a conversation with the audience,
0:26:14 > 0:26:17even if you're not directly doing an aside to them.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20I learned this during a production of Romeo And Juliet,
0:26:20 > 0:26:23Terry Hands was directing it, I was the assistant director,
0:26:23 > 0:26:26and the girl playing Juliet had the potion,
0:26:26 > 0:26:27the poison that she's going to take
0:26:27 > 0:26:30to send her to sleep, and she was going...
0:26:31 > 0:26:36"What if this be a poison the friar subtly hath ministered
0:26:36 > 0:26:38"to have me dead?"
0:26:38 > 0:26:41And Terry said, "Who are you talking to?"
0:26:41 > 0:26:44She said, "Well, myself," and he said,
0:26:44 > 0:26:46"Who are all these people?"
0:26:46 > 0:26:48LAUGHTER
0:26:48 > 0:26:51And she said, "Well, you know..." and got the point.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54And suddenly - and I was sitting watching this - she said,
0:26:54 > 0:26:58"What if this be a poison the friar subtly hath ministered
0:26:58 > 0:26:59"to have me dead?"
0:26:59 > 0:27:01And I went, "I don't know."
0:27:01 > 0:27:04LAUGHTER
0:27:04 > 0:27:06APPLAUSE
0:27:09 > 0:27:12Because if it's an engagement with the audience,
0:27:12 > 0:27:15then you will have no problem with audibility,
0:27:15 > 0:27:18because you want to reach, and for them to hear,
0:27:18 > 0:27:21this two-way complicit conversation
0:27:21 > 0:27:24that is Shakespeare's theatre.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27Well, not all the productions you've done together
0:27:27 > 0:27:29have been written by Mr William Shakespeare.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31We're going to move now to Cyrano de Bergerac,
0:27:31 > 0:27:35translated, of course, from the French, from Rostand's French -
0:27:35 > 0:27:37in this case by Anthony Burgess,
0:27:37 > 0:27:41the extraordinary, Renaissance, multi-talented...
0:27:41 > 0:27:42The late Anthony Burgess.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45This was put on in 1997,
0:27:45 > 0:27:47and we've got a clip.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49I should explain at the beginning
0:27:49 > 0:27:52that there are two little sections to this clip,
0:27:52 > 0:27:53the first one is from a rehearsal
0:27:53 > 0:27:58and the second one is from a performance.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01And it is Cyrano, played by Tony,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03teaching his protege,
0:28:03 > 0:28:06and you will see this little male head at some point,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09how to woo a woman that he, Cyrano -
0:28:09 > 0:28:12it's very touching - really loves himself.
0:28:13 > 0:28:17Oh, God, how I love you, I choke with love.
0:28:18 > 0:28:20I stumble in madness,
0:28:20 > 0:28:25tread a fiery region where reason is consumed.
0:28:25 > 0:28:29I love you beyond the limits that love sets himself.
0:28:29 > 0:28:32I love, I love...
0:28:32 > 0:28:34your name.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39Never in my most reckless
0:28:39 > 0:28:43and reasonable dream have I hoped for this.
0:28:44 > 0:28:50Now I can gladly die knowing that it is my words
0:28:50 > 0:28:55that make you tremble in the blue shadows of the trees.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57For it is true,
0:28:57 > 0:29:03you do tremble like a leaf among the leaves.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06And the passion of that trembling
0:29:06 > 0:29:10weaves a spider filament
0:29:10 > 0:29:13that seeks me now,
0:29:13 > 0:29:16feeling its way
0:29:16 > 0:29:19among the jasmine bough.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21APPLAUSE
0:29:26 > 0:29:29Another reason for explaining that that's in two parts
0:29:29 > 0:29:31is that you suddenly sprouted a nose.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33LAUGHTER
0:29:33 > 0:29:36It's a wonderful swashbuckling play
0:29:36 > 0:29:38with a very tender love scene.
0:29:38 > 0:29:43Did you do special research - I bet you did, Tony -
0:29:43 > 0:29:45to play Cyrano?
0:29:45 > 0:29:47No, there are some parts
0:29:47 > 0:29:50that you really don't need to research.
0:29:50 > 0:29:54Parts that you just have to play from the heart,
0:29:54 > 0:29:58there's no amount of research
0:29:58 > 0:30:01that's going to help you with those kind of parts.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04As you say, it's a very poignant love story.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06I think you went to...
0:30:06 > 0:30:09Did you go to Paris to get a feel for France?
0:30:09 > 0:30:10We did go to Paris,
0:30:10 > 0:30:14and we went to Paris to look at big noses, actually.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16LAUGHTER
0:30:16 > 0:30:19We walked round the streets of Paris,
0:30:19 > 0:30:22looking at different people's noses,
0:30:22 > 0:30:25wondering whether we'd find the right one.
0:30:25 > 0:30:30- But, anyway, yeah, we... - Did you use any of that research?
0:30:31 > 0:30:35- Erm...- We did go and see a French production...- Yes.
0:30:35 > 0:30:40..and rather gloriously, the actor playing Cyrano greeted us backstage
0:30:40 > 0:30:44and he said, "I'm not going to wish you luck
0:30:44 > 0:30:45"with your production,
0:30:45 > 0:30:49"because luck is about what the critics say and how it's reviewed."
0:30:49 > 0:30:53He said, "In France, we wish you joy."
0:30:53 > 0:30:57And I think that's the most lovely thing to say.
0:30:57 > 0:30:58But can I say,
0:30:58 > 0:31:02in that beautiful translation by Anthony Burgess -
0:31:02 > 0:31:05I think it's called an adaptation,
0:31:05 > 0:31:08it's not just a translation -
0:31:08 > 0:31:12he uses two wonderful phrases.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15One is the "casual dress of flesh",
0:31:15 > 0:31:20by which he means you can be maybe beautiful or maybe ugly
0:31:20 > 0:31:22in the eyes of the world,
0:31:22 > 0:31:25and that that's a casual roll of the dice
0:31:25 > 0:31:28that nature has done,
0:31:28 > 0:31:33and contrasts that with what he calls "the visible soul".
0:31:33 > 0:31:38So Cyrano, who regards himself
0:31:38 > 0:31:40as ugly, unattractive,
0:31:40 > 0:31:44nevertheless has, as I think you could see in that clip,
0:31:44 > 0:31:47this shining soul.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51And I've taken to using that phrase,
0:31:51 > 0:31:53"the visible soul",
0:31:53 > 0:31:57as the essence of great acting.
0:31:58 > 0:32:02If you think of Judi Dench,
0:32:02 > 0:32:05what do you see when she comes on?
0:32:05 > 0:32:06You see her soul,
0:32:06 > 0:32:10and it's the most precious and wonderful thing
0:32:10 > 0:32:13that an actor, a performer,
0:32:13 > 0:32:16can share with an audience.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20And it's something that I've spent a lot of my career
0:32:20 > 0:32:22sort of reaching towards,
0:32:22 > 0:32:26because I began by wanting disguise,
0:32:26 > 0:32:29the casual dress of flesh, you know,
0:32:29 > 0:32:33I thought it was all about wearing funny noses
0:32:33 > 0:32:35or padding or whatever.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38And I've always thought of myself as a character actor,
0:32:38 > 0:32:42meaning someone who travels away from themselves
0:32:42 > 0:32:44to become the character.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47But then you see someone like Meryl Streep,
0:32:47 > 0:32:51who I think is an astonishing actress,
0:32:51 > 0:32:55who transforms herself utterly into Maggie Thatcher,
0:32:55 > 0:33:00or the survivor of a concentration camp in Sophie's Choice.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04- Or as a rock star, as she is in her latest movie.- That's right.
0:33:04 > 0:33:09And yet, you also see her visible soul through that,
0:33:09 > 0:33:12and that's what, I think, makes her remarkable.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16So perhaps with Judi Dench and Meryl Streep
0:33:16 > 0:33:19you get an example of two types of acting,
0:33:19 > 0:33:22not that one is any better than the other,
0:33:22 > 0:33:25but both have, at their essence,
0:33:25 > 0:33:30this phrase that we learned on Cyrano, the visible soul.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33Before we leave Cyrano, just a thought.
0:33:33 > 0:33:37I know some productions beg to be in...
0:33:37 > 0:33:39Not to be in modern dress,
0:33:39 > 0:33:42and some adapt very well to modern dress.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45Did you at any point think of Cyrano
0:33:45 > 0:33:46being in modern dress
0:33:46 > 0:33:49- and then change your mind? - Not in... No.- I don't think so.
0:33:49 > 0:33:52Cos what is sometimes disturbing -
0:33:52 > 0:33:54and I won't name any particular productions,
0:33:54 > 0:33:57and certainly not one of yours - is when...
0:33:57 > 0:34:01It's very popular to set Shakespeare in army camps
0:34:01 > 0:34:05and there are references to swords which don't quite work.
0:34:05 > 0:34:06Yeah. That's true.
0:34:06 > 0:34:10People are terribly clever at making modern associations.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14And I think sometimes the plays do work really well in modern dress
0:34:14 > 0:34:18and I think each play is different. But I think you're right -
0:34:18 > 0:34:21there are times when if you have a modern-dress Romeo And Juliet,
0:34:21 > 0:34:23you think, "Why didn't she text him?"
0:34:23 > 0:34:25LAUGHTER
0:34:30 > 0:34:36But in fact... I'm sure coming up is a clip from the Macbeth that we did.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38Now that's a very unusual situation
0:34:38 > 0:34:44where we had set out to do it Jacobean, in its period,
0:34:44 > 0:34:47and, like, halfway through rehearsals...
0:34:47 > 0:34:49- Not quite halfway, earlier.- Yes.
0:34:49 > 0:34:53..decided to change to modern dress,
0:34:53 > 0:34:55or modernish dress,
0:34:55 > 0:34:59because the play was some...
0:34:59 > 0:35:04Macbeth is, I think, Shakespeare's most brilliant play.
0:35:04 > 0:35:09It's a short play, and it goes like a blade from start to finish.
0:35:09 > 0:35:13But it's incredibly difficult to do,
0:35:13 > 0:35:16because of the themes of witchcraft -
0:35:16 > 0:35:19which can lead to all sorts of melodrama -
0:35:19 > 0:35:23and the themes of murder and blood.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29And we found that doing it in period costumes
0:35:29 > 0:35:33was stopping the actors from really contacting,
0:35:33 > 0:35:37so we made this very unusual decision halfway through
0:35:37 > 0:35:39to change to modern dress.
0:35:39 > 0:35:41Well, before we go any further,
0:35:41 > 0:35:44let's see a clip from that famous, wonderful production...
0:35:44 > 0:35:48- Sorry to pre-empt!- ..of Macbeth. 1999, I think it was.
0:35:48 > 0:35:53And your Lady Macbeth was the wonderful Harriet Walter.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56I will tomorrow,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00and betimes I will, to the weird sisters.
0:36:00 > 0:36:03More shall they speak,
0:36:03 > 0:36:08for now I am bent to know, by the worst means, the worst.
0:36:08 > 0:36:12For mine own good, all causes shall give way.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20I am in blood stepped in so far
0:36:20 > 0:36:22that, should I wade no more,
0:36:22 > 0:36:27returning were as tedious as go o'er.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33Strange things I have in head,
0:36:33 > 0:36:35that will to hand,
0:36:35 > 0:36:40which must be acted ere they may be scanned.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43You lack the season of all natures...
0:36:45 > 0:36:47..sleep.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58Come, we'll to sleep.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06APPLAUSE
0:37:11 > 0:37:15It's very popular, it's quite short, it goes like a steam train,
0:37:15 > 0:37:19but, I think, you have found it the most difficult part
0:37:19 > 0:37:22that you've ever played, the most difficult Shakespeare role.
0:37:22 > 0:37:26Yes. And of all the...
0:37:26 > 0:37:28I normally sketch in my scripts
0:37:28 > 0:37:32and try out what the character's going to look like,
0:37:32 > 0:37:34or kind of what he feels like.
0:37:34 > 0:37:38I... There's not a single sketch in my Macbeth script.
0:37:38 > 0:37:43I simply didn't know what he looked like,
0:37:43 > 0:37:46because it doesn't matter what he looks like, actually. He...
0:37:46 > 0:37:50It's what he thinks, it's how his...
0:37:51 > 0:37:55Somebody said, "He's a man who can't stop thinking,
0:37:55 > 0:37:58"who can't stop watching himself."
0:38:00 > 0:38:02I think, for me, a big breakthrough -
0:38:02 > 0:38:04again, it was research -
0:38:04 > 0:38:08was I needed to understand
0:38:08 > 0:38:11what it was like to murder,
0:38:11 > 0:38:16because that is at the essence of that play.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19And I think it's one of the things that, as human beings,
0:38:19 > 0:38:21it's very hard for us
0:38:21 > 0:38:24to imagine this...
0:38:24 > 0:38:28This deed that is beyond all others.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31You're not saying you went out and found some murderers?
0:38:31 > 0:38:33- LAUGHTER - Two.- Two?- I did.
0:38:33 > 0:38:37I went and met separately, on two different occasions,
0:38:37 > 0:38:39men who'd committed murder
0:38:39 > 0:38:42and who'd served their sentences
0:38:42 > 0:38:44and were back in the community.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48And they were extraordinary meetings.
0:38:48 > 0:38:50I mean, really unforgettable.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54The first man was like a man without a layer of skin.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57The deed that he had done
0:38:57 > 0:39:00had just broken him apart
0:39:00 > 0:39:02and haunted him.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05The second man was a hardened criminal
0:39:05 > 0:39:07who was simply haunted by the fact
0:39:07 > 0:39:10that he'd got caught and done time.
0:39:10 > 0:39:15And so it seemed to me that they were Macbeth and Lady Macbeth,
0:39:15 > 0:39:19in a way, because Macbeth is haunted and shattered
0:39:19 > 0:39:22by killing the king, Duncan,
0:39:22 > 0:39:25and Lady Macbeth thinks she isn't
0:39:25 > 0:39:29until it catches up with her in her sleep.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32- It is a wonderful part for a woman, Lady Macbeth, isn't it?- Yes.
0:39:32 > 0:39:35A real test of a fine classical actor there.
0:39:35 > 0:39:41Just marvellous to have Harriet do it.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43And, of course, we played it for a year.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46We took it on tour and we filmed it, as you see,
0:39:46 > 0:39:50and the last day of filming coincided exactly a year later
0:39:50 > 0:39:51from the first day of rehearsals.
0:39:51 > 0:39:52And Harriet said, you know,
0:39:52 > 0:39:54"If you'd asked me to play Lady Macbeth for a year,
0:39:54 > 0:39:57"I might have decided against it."
0:39:57 > 0:39:59But, er, it was extraordinary, because she -
0:39:59 > 0:40:03you know, talking of the visible soul - she has that.
0:40:03 > 0:40:07She has that missing layer of skin
0:40:07 > 0:40:08that you're talking about.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10She has such an ability...
0:40:10 > 0:40:13And by the time we came to film it, the actors were...
0:40:13 > 0:40:15Could breathe the stuff.
0:40:15 > 0:40:16There was no sense of them
0:40:16 > 0:40:19speaking some funny iambic-pentameter Shakespeare verse.
0:40:19 > 0:40:23I'd like to ask Tony what the experience of being...
0:40:23 > 0:40:27Of going out live to an audience round the country
0:40:27 > 0:40:29and perhaps even round the world...
0:40:29 > 0:40:32These transmissions are now very popular.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35I think they started from the Metropolitan Opera in New York,
0:40:35 > 0:40:37and now, I won't say everybody does them,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40- but they're hugely popular, and rightly so.- Yes.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43How conscious are you when that happens
0:40:43 > 0:40:45of the mechanics of filming?
0:40:45 > 0:40:48Well, you are aware that if you make a mistake,
0:40:48 > 0:40:51it's going to be seen round the world.
0:40:51 > 0:40:52LAUGHTER
0:40:52 > 0:40:54But... So that's all right.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58What I found, actually, it was very moving,
0:40:58 > 0:41:00because as I was going into the theatre
0:41:00 > 0:41:05and preparing to put on the make-up and all of that,
0:41:05 > 0:41:08I was aware that at the same time
0:41:08 > 0:41:12my family in South Africa were travelling to a cinema
0:41:12 > 0:41:14where they were going to watch it.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17- What production would this be? - This was Travelling Light...
0:41:17 > 0:41:20- Travelling Light.- ..at the National. That was the first time.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23Your twin sister in America
0:41:23 > 0:41:26was travelling to a cinema there,
0:41:26 > 0:41:29and people round the country were going.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31And I thought this is so moving
0:41:31 > 0:41:34that here I am, preparing to do this performance,
0:41:34 > 0:41:38and all round the world people are going to the cinema
0:41:38 > 0:41:40and they're going to see it.
0:41:40 > 0:41:43I just thought that was the most wonderful thing.
0:41:43 > 0:41:45And you're not conscious, really, of cameras -
0:41:45 > 0:41:47they're so tiny these days, I suppose.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49Well, you do camera rehearsals.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52You do several camera rehearsals,
0:41:52 > 0:41:54so you get used to the cameras.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56So...
0:41:56 > 0:41:59And, then, you know, the audience are told
0:41:59 > 0:42:03to not let the cameras put them off,
0:42:03 > 0:42:08and so they react, you know, with gusto and...
0:42:08 > 0:42:13- No, the two things seem to work very well together.- When we did...
0:42:13 > 0:42:15The first one we did at Stratford,
0:42:15 > 0:42:18because we're working our way through the entire canon,
0:42:18 > 0:42:19we started with Richard II...
0:42:19 > 0:42:21- In six years, is it?- Yeah.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23- Six or seven years, it will be.- Yeah.
0:42:23 > 0:42:25We started with David Tennant in Richard II,
0:42:25 > 0:42:30and I received a tweet during the interval of the transmission
0:42:30 > 0:42:33saying, "Loving Richard II
0:42:33 > 0:42:36"sitting in my UCI Whiteleys cinema
0:42:36 > 0:42:38"eating my chicken korma."
0:42:38 > 0:42:41And I thought, "Well, I'm glad I'm not sitting next to you..."
0:42:41 > 0:42:42LAUGHTER
0:42:42 > 0:42:45"..but if that's like how you like your Shakespeare,
0:42:45 > 0:42:47"well, that's great, isn't it? So be it."
0:42:47 > 0:42:51Well, now, we'll move on to Othello, 2004,
0:42:51 > 0:42:55before the era of live transmissions, I think.
0:42:55 > 0:43:00And you, Tony, were a memorable Iago.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05Trifles light as air
0:43:05 > 0:43:11are to the jealous confirmations strong as proofs of holy writ.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15This may do something.
0:43:15 > 0:43:19The Moor already changes with my poison.
0:43:19 > 0:43:22Dangerous conceits are, in their natures, poisons,
0:43:22 > 0:43:27which at the first are scarce found to distaste,
0:43:27 > 0:43:31but with a little act upon the blood
0:43:31 > 0:43:35burn like the mines of sulphur.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40I did say so. Look where he comes!
0:43:42 > 0:43:45Not poppy, nor mandragora,
0:43:45 > 0:43:49nor all the drowsy syrups of the world,
0:43:49 > 0:43:53shall ever medicine thee to that sweet sleep,
0:43:53 > 0:43:56which thou owedst yesterday.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58APPLAUSE
0:44:04 > 0:44:08Tony, your Othello was Sello Maake Ka-N-cube,
0:44:08 > 0:44:11is that correct? Almost!
0:44:11 > 0:44:14- Sello Maake Ka-Ncube.- Oh, OK.
0:44:14 > 0:44:17A South African, black South African actor.
0:44:17 > 0:44:20It would be unthinkable now
0:44:20 > 0:44:22to black up a white actor.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25How difficult is it to find...
0:44:25 > 0:44:29Enough Othellos, black Othellos?
0:44:29 > 0:44:33There are now really, really great black actors,
0:44:33 > 0:44:37which, you know, they didn't have the opportunities, 20, 30 years ago.
0:44:37 > 0:44:42They are now getting those opportunities, actually, probably...
0:44:42 > 0:44:45um, actors in the Asian community are getting less,
0:44:45 > 0:44:47and need more visibility.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50But now I was...
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Did a production of Julius Caesar a couple of years ago,
0:44:53 > 0:44:56which we set in modern Africa, with an entirely black cast...
0:44:56 > 0:44:59- Which was entirely black, yes. - ..of really extraordinary talents,
0:44:59 > 0:45:01like Paterson Joseph and Cyril Nri
0:45:01 > 0:45:03and, I mean, really... Jeffery Kissoon.
0:45:03 > 0:45:07So, we have a new generation of those talents
0:45:07 > 0:45:10and, indeed, next year we have Paapa Essiedu,
0:45:10 > 0:45:14who will be the first black actor to play Hamlet at Stratford.
0:45:14 > 0:45:17So, there are great actors now
0:45:17 > 0:45:19which, maybe 20 years ago,
0:45:19 > 0:45:22generally there weren't.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25So it would be hard to justify a white actor
0:45:25 > 0:45:29blacking up to playing Othello now until more black actors,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32and actors of all sorts of ethnicities,
0:45:32 > 0:45:37a really diverse of range of actors, have had the same opportunities
0:45:37 > 0:45:42that have normally been, traditionally, white actors.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45I think there's recently been a production of Othello
0:45:45 > 0:45:48- where Iago was black as well. - Indeed. At Stratford.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51Is it now colour-blind casting,
0:45:51 > 0:45:53are people really accepted?
0:45:53 > 0:45:56No, I think it's colour-conscious casting.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59Certainly with Lucian Msamati playing Iago.
0:45:59 > 0:46:04It was absolutely extraordinary to see the layers of prejudice,
0:46:04 > 0:46:07not just against Othello as the lone black man,
0:46:07 > 0:46:09but by another black man,
0:46:09 > 0:46:12whose own deep-rooted, deep-seated prejudices were there.
0:46:12 > 0:46:16And I think there are many ways of describing what...
0:46:16 > 0:46:20What is it that motivates Iago's jealousy.
0:46:20 > 0:46:24But I think you sort of cut aside, didn't you,
0:46:24 > 0:46:28the sort of Samuel Taylor Coleridge idea
0:46:28 > 0:46:31that Iago has this motiveless malignity.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33Yes.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35I think he clearly said that,
0:46:35 > 0:46:38which has become a famous statement,
0:46:38 > 0:46:41in a sort of pre-Freudian era,
0:46:41 > 0:46:45where Iago might seem motiveless.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49He's not remotely motiveless.
0:46:49 > 0:46:51He's... He's a racist.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53That's very clear...
0:46:53 > 0:46:56from everything he says.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59But also there's something very...
0:46:59 > 0:47:02sick - sexually - in him.
0:47:02 > 0:47:06He can't open his mouth without...
0:47:06 > 0:47:08this kind of visceral,
0:47:08 > 0:47:12sexual innuendos coming out.
0:47:12 > 0:47:16And it's... You could partly say, "Well, he's a soldier,
0:47:16 > 0:47:19"that's how soldiers speak."
0:47:19 > 0:47:22But there's something deeply disturbed.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25And I remember us discussing that
0:47:25 > 0:47:30and reaching a very interesting decision,
0:47:30 > 0:47:31which was unusual,
0:47:31 > 0:47:35where we said we're not going to decide
0:47:35 > 0:47:39what it is that he suffers from.
0:47:40 > 0:47:42We're just going to let it be
0:47:42 > 0:47:47that there's something terribly, terribly disturbed about this man
0:47:47 > 0:47:53which causes him to infect Othello
0:47:53 > 0:47:56with this jealousy that's going to destroy them.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59How much of... You say he's obviously a racist,
0:47:59 > 0:48:02how much of your own South African background
0:48:02 > 0:48:05informed your portrayal of Iago?
0:48:05 > 0:48:06Well, it was terrific.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08Both Sello and I,
0:48:08 > 0:48:11being South Africans who had lived under apartheid,
0:48:11 > 0:48:15we were able to have a shorthand
0:48:15 > 0:48:17in playing those two parts.
0:48:17 > 0:48:22And Sello...just understood so profoundly
0:48:22 > 0:48:28how a black man who's promoted in a white society,
0:48:28 > 0:48:31like Othello is to being a top general,
0:48:31 > 0:48:34how he's got to walk a sort of tightrope.
0:48:34 > 0:48:36Sello had that in him.
0:48:36 > 0:48:39He knew what that was like,
0:48:39 > 0:48:42that kind of slightly deferential way
0:48:42 > 0:48:47that he would behave with the senators in the senate scene.
0:48:47 > 0:48:51But, also, we both just understood
0:48:51 > 0:48:56how that racism was not something that had to be demonstrated,
0:48:56 > 0:49:00because in the South Africa that we were growing up in, it was -
0:49:00 > 0:49:04well, that you grew up in as well -
0:49:04 > 0:49:07it was a fact of life.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10It was regarded as one of the facts of life,
0:49:10 > 0:49:15that white people were superior and black people weren't.
0:49:15 > 0:49:19- And they had separate entrances to the Post Office.- That's right.
0:49:19 > 0:49:21Let's come absolutely up to date,
0:49:21 > 0:49:24with a production from this year, 2015 -
0:49:24 > 0:49:26Death Of A Salesman.
0:49:26 > 0:49:30Lots to say, not least that Harriet Walter rejoined you
0:49:30 > 0:49:32for this production,
0:49:32 > 0:49:34but here's a clip from the end of Act I.
0:49:35 > 0:49:38When the team came out,
0:49:38 > 0:49:41he was the tallest, remember?
0:49:41 > 0:49:43Yeah, and in gold.
0:49:43 > 0:49:45Like a young god.
0:49:45 > 0:49:49Hercules, something like that.
0:49:49 > 0:49:52And the sun, the sun all around him.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57Remember how he waved to me right up from the field,
0:49:57 > 0:50:02with the representatives of three colleges standing by?
0:50:02 > 0:50:07And the buyers I brought, and the cheers when he came out -
0:50:07 > 0:50:13"Loman, Loman, Loman!"
0:50:14 > 0:50:17God Almighty, he'll be great yet.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20A star like that, magnificent,
0:50:20 > 0:50:23can never really fade away.
0:50:23 > 0:50:26Willy, dear, what has he got against you?
0:50:28 > 0:50:30I'm so tired, don't talk any more.
0:50:30 > 0:50:34Will you ask Howard to let you work in New York?
0:50:34 > 0:50:37First thing in the morning. Everything will be all right.
0:50:37 > 0:50:38Gee!
0:50:38 > 0:50:43Look at the moon coming between the buildings!
0:50:47 > 0:50:50APPLAUSE
0:50:55 > 0:50:58Now, interestingly, and possibly provocatively, Greg,
0:50:58 > 0:51:00you chose this play
0:51:00 > 0:51:04to open this summer's new season at Stratford,
0:51:04 > 0:51:06and on Shakespeare's birthday.
0:51:06 > 0:51:10And some people thought, "What on earth is Arthur Miller doing there?"
0:51:10 > 0:51:12But how did that come about?
0:51:12 > 0:51:18It's... I... It wasn't intended to be perhaps as provocative as it was.
0:51:18 > 0:51:19To me...
0:51:21 > 0:51:23..Shakespeare is a great genius,
0:51:23 > 0:51:25but there are many great playwrights.
0:51:25 > 0:51:30And this year is the centenary of Arthur Miller,
0:51:30 > 0:51:35and it felt to me that a play of the scale,
0:51:35 > 0:51:38of the emotional intensity,
0:51:38 > 0:51:40of the human compassion
0:51:40 > 0:51:43of a play like Death Of A Salesman,
0:51:43 > 0:51:48warranted its place, side by side, on the stage of the RST.
0:51:48 > 0:51:51And it seemed important to do that,
0:51:51 > 0:51:55particularly in the centenary of that great writer.
0:51:55 > 0:51:59You know, Willy Loman is often described by American actors
0:51:59 > 0:52:04as the... The American King Lear.
0:52:04 > 0:52:07It has, I think...
0:52:07 > 0:52:11Perhaps that's difficult to see what the comparison quite is,
0:52:11 > 0:52:13but certainly it is a huge role
0:52:13 > 0:52:17with an enormous emotional range to it.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20And it felt that it would be appropriate
0:52:20 > 0:52:24to put the plays in partnership in some way.
0:52:24 > 0:52:30And I felt that this was a play that was absolutely...
0:52:32 > 0:52:34Had Tony's name written all on it.
0:52:34 > 0:52:38And that to couple it with King Lear, which we'll do next year,
0:52:38 > 0:52:43seemed like a really interesting conversation
0:52:43 > 0:52:44between those two plays.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47Well, it was a triumphantly vindicated decision,
0:52:47 > 0:52:50because the critics loved it and the audiences loved it.
0:52:52 > 0:52:55Willy Loman, did it fit you like a glove,
0:52:55 > 0:52:57or was it hard work at first?
0:52:59 > 0:53:01It was hard work.
0:53:01 > 0:53:06And the breakthrough was the most unexpected thing.
0:53:06 > 0:53:10In Arthur Miller's autobiography, Timebends,
0:53:10 > 0:53:15he talks about one of his uncles, Uncle Manny,
0:53:15 > 0:53:20who was one of the models for Willy Loman.
0:53:20 > 0:53:26And it was an extraordinary description of this man,
0:53:26 > 0:53:28who was a bit kind of crazy.
0:53:29 > 0:53:33Who was a complete fantasist,
0:53:33 > 0:53:35which he imposed on his family.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38I mean, there were obvious parallels.
0:53:38 > 0:53:40Uncle Manny was also a salesman,
0:53:40 > 0:53:45he had two sons who excelled at sports rather than studies,
0:53:45 > 0:53:48and he did eventually kill himself.
0:53:48 > 0:53:50So those things fitted.
0:53:50 > 0:53:56But because Willy Loman is so iconically a victim -
0:53:56 > 0:53:59it's the first thing we think about him,
0:53:59 > 0:54:04this poor man with two suitcases who is a victim.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06- And deluded.- Yes.
0:54:06 > 0:54:10To have the playwright, not through the play
0:54:10 > 0:54:13but through a different...work,
0:54:13 > 0:54:17talk to me in a way about that character,
0:54:17 > 0:54:21to allow me to see him as a more brutal...
0:54:21 > 0:54:22fantasist,
0:54:22 > 0:54:26not just the victim, was...
0:54:26 > 0:54:30The whole thing changed after reading that, for me.
0:54:30 > 0:54:35Suddenly, I had an access to the character that I hadn't had before.
0:54:35 > 0:54:38So, Greg, you're going to twin these two plays, are you,
0:54:38 > 0:54:40in the next season?
0:54:40 > 0:54:43We're going to... We won't, in fact, bring Death Of A Salesman back,
0:54:43 > 0:54:47but Lear will be next summer, yes.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50- That's the... - And I know you probably don't...
0:54:50 > 0:54:56It's bad luck to talk about it too early, but just one thought -
0:54:56 > 0:55:01anything in common between Willy Loman and King Lear, in your mind?
0:55:05 > 0:55:08I think it's the emotional scale of...
0:55:08 > 0:55:10It is a fantastically good part.
0:55:10 > 0:55:13It's fantastically... They're both fantastically good parts.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16That is true. And he's also already started learning King Lear.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18So, it takes a long time to learn.
0:55:18 > 0:55:22And, crucially, they travel different journeys.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25Lear learns awareness
0:55:25 > 0:55:28through his terrible journey that he goes on.
0:55:28 > 0:55:30Willy never learns awareness.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33And that's part of his tragedy.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35Is it a play...
0:55:35 > 0:55:37I said I wouldn't talk about Lear,
0:55:37 > 0:55:41but this is just a question that doesn't terribly much apply to Lear,
0:55:41 > 0:55:43but to all great Shakespearean characters.
0:55:43 > 0:55:45When you take them on,
0:55:45 > 0:55:50the shadows of some wonderfully successful predecessors
0:55:50 > 0:55:53must lie long across your path.
0:55:53 > 0:55:54Oh, yes.
0:55:54 > 0:55:57But I had a baptism by fire with that,
0:55:57 > 0:56:02because my first big role at the RSC was Richard III.
0:56:02 > 0:56:09Now, the greatest actor that has ever lived played Richard III
0:56:09 > 0:56:11rather famously on stage.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13And then he went and filmed it.
0:56:13 > 0:56:14LAUGHTER
0:56:14 > 0:56:16You're talking about Sir Laurence.
0:56:16 > 0:56:18I'm talking about Sir Laurence Olivier.
0:56:18 > 0:56:22So that all around the world, South Sea Islanders
0:56:22 > 0:56:26and the Inuit people of Alaska can go,
0:56:26 > 0:56:30- IMITATES OLIVIER:- "Now is the winter of our discontent."
0:56:30 > 0:56:32It's... It's just...
0:56:32 > 0:56:35LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:56:35 > 0:56:38It's not fair! It's not fair.
0:56:38 > 0:56:41But once you've been through that,
0:56:41 > 0:56:45and you realise that Shakespeare is greater
0:56:45 > 0:56:49than any single great actor or great production,
0:56:49 > 0:56:53it's very liberating, because you...
0:56:53 > 0:56:55You have to just forget about it.
0:56:55 > 0:57:00You think of it as a new play that's arrived, landed...come through
0:57:00 > 0:57:05the letterbox, and you're going to play this part for the first time.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08And just a quick thought. You were The Fool to Michael Gambon's Lear.
0:57:08 > 0:57:12- I was, yes. - Was that an advantage or not?
0:57:12 > 0:57:13Well...
0:57:13 > 0:57:17I'm finding it an advantage as I learn the lines.
0:57:17 > 0:57:19They sound familiar.
0:57:19 > 0:57:24I sat on stage while Michael gave a great performance as Lear
0:57:24 > 0:57:26for so many times that, somehow,
0:57:26 > 0:57:30Lear's lines have gone a bit into my head, so...
0:57:30 > 0:57:33- thank you, Michael Gambon.- Yes.
0:57:33 > 0:57:35How much have you two changed
0:57:35 > 0:57:39in the 20 years since you first started -
0:57:39 > 0:57:46you know, you directing and Tony under your aegis - working together?
0:57:46 > 0:57:48How about... Do you want to start with that?
0:57:48 > 0:57:51Only that I've been very lucky
0:57:51 > 0:57:55as someone who came to Shakespeare as an outsider.
0:57:55 > 0:57:58As I said, when I joined the RSC,
0:57:58 > 0:58:01there was Hesperian John Barton
0:58:01 > 0:58:05teaching me and the others about Shakespeare.
0:58:05 > 0:58:07How lucky am I that...
0:58:07 > 0:58:11And they were the great Shakespeareans at that time,
0:58:11 > 0:58:15and Greg has now become one of the great Shakespeareans.
0:58:15 > 0:58:19I'm not boasting, it's been said in print several times.
0:58:19 > 0:58:23How lucky am I to be married to a great Shakespearean?
0:58:23 > 0:58:27I mean, that's just been the greatest gift
0:58:27 > 0:58:30that he could possibly have given me,
0:58:30 > 0:58:33that he continues to teach me about Shakespeare.
0:58:33 > 0:58:35Gregory Doran, Antony Sher,
0:58:35 > 0:58:37thank you both very much indeed.
0:58:37 > 0:58:38- Thank you.- Thank you.
0:58:38 > 0:58:41APPLAUSE