Jung Chang

:00:00. > :00:31.Hello, I'm Razia Iqbal, and I'm at Hay Festival for a special series of

:00:32. > :00:38.Talking Books. Among many of the attractions here is the Chinese

:00:39. > :00:40.writer Jung Chang. Her book, Wild Swans, catapulted her onto the

:00:41. > :00:47.international stage, the harrowing story of her own family focusing on

:00:48. > :00:50.three generations of women. She then tackled the task of thinking about

:00:51. > :00:54.what we should think about Chairman Mao, and now a book on the Empress

:00:55. > :00:56.Dowager who ruled to 1908, a woman she says went from concubine to

:00:57. > :01:10.laying the modern foundations of China.

:01:11. > :01:15.The Empress Dowager in the book written by Jung Chang is a book in

:01:16. > :01:18.which she dismisses the predominantly Western view of her as

:01:19. > :01:26.either tyrannical, or vicious, or even hopelessly incompetent. What

:01:27. > :01:35.was it specifically that drew you to her as a subject you wanted to

:01:36. > :01:37.research? I first got interested in the

:01:38. > :01:43.Empress Dowager when I was researching Wild Swans. In that I

:01:44. > :01:54.described my grandmother had bound feet, crushed and bound feet. This

:01:55. > :01:58.was her shoe, she was my size. The foot binding was not only to put a

:01:59. > :02:02.piece of cloth around the feet, only the big toe was allowed to grow, and

:02:03. > :02:05.the other toes and the arch were crushed under a big stone, the

:02:06. > :02:15.binding was there to stop the bones from recovering. This form of

:02:16. > :02:25.torture tortured Chinese women for 1000 years. I grew up in Communist

:02:26. > :02:32.China and thought that foot binding was banned by the communists. When

:02:33. > :02:42.researching Wild Swans, I realised that foot binding was banned by the

:02:43. > :02:44.Empress Dowager. That got me interested, because her image and

:02:45. > :02:47.reputation was this archconservative who dragged China behind, who was

:02:48. > :03:02.responsible for all of the horrible things that happened in China. And

:03:03. > :03:08.that she was cruel. She was a despot. That was different from the

:03:09. > :03:14.image that I got, from the banning of bound feet. That is how I became

:03:15. > :03:18.first interested. The binding of the feet is an image that will stay with

:03:19. > :03:24.anyone who has read Wild Swans, as a kind of potent image of what was so

:03:25. > :03:27.oppressive for women in particular. Tell us a bit about her story. It

:03:28. > :03:43.was an extraordinary entrance into the Imperial Court. This was a

:03:44. > :03:45.daughter of a provincial official, who became the Emperor's concubine.

:03:46. > :03:50.Although there was a fatalism to what her future might be, she made

:03:51. > :03:55.her own destiny. She was born in 1835. When she was 16 years old she

:03:56. > :04:09.went through one of those periodic, nationwide selections for imperial

:04:10. > :04:20.consorts. She caught the eye of the Emperor. She became Imperial

:04:21. > :04:24.concubine. In 1860, the British invaded China. They burned down the

:04:25. > :04:29.Old Summer Palace. The emperor fled north with the court. And so she was

:04:30. > :04:41.with him. The Emperor was so heartbroken at the burning down of

:04:42. > :04:47.the Old Summer Palace. He refused to return to the capital. He died in

:04:48. > :04:51.the northern wilderness. The Emperor and Empress had one son. The Emperor

:04:52. > :05:03.had one son. That was by the Empress Dowager. That son became the next

:05:04. > :05:06.Emperor. When the emperor died, he appointed eight grandees to

:05:07. > :05:11.supervise his son, who was only five years old at the time. The Empress

:05:12. > :05:18.seized the moment and launched a coup and ousted the eight grandees.

:05:19. > :05:21.That was because she thought the eight grandees would go down the

:05:22. > :05:33.same road of confrontation with the west. At that time, in 1861, China's

:05:34. > :05:42.door had been closed for more than 100 years. The emperors had resisted

:05:43. > :05:45.Western effort, particularly British, to open that door, which

:05:46. > :05:50.led to the burning of the Old Summer Palace and the death of the Emperor.

:05:51. > :05:54.The Empress thought, you know, why must we engage in this confrontation

:05:55. > :06:08.with the West? Why can we not open the door of China and do business

:06:09. > :06:13.with the west? And to benefit China itself. That is common sense, change

:06:14. > :06:16.China. She opened the door of China. The period you are talking about,

:06:17. > :06:19.China was beset by revolt within the country and also the possible

:06:20. > :06:30.incursion it had just seen with the British in the second Opium War.

:06:31. > :06:33.Tell us about the traditional culture that meant that although she

:06:34. > :06:48.may have engineered the coup, it was not possible for her to rule openly.

:06:49. > :06:51.She was carried to a morning audience by eunuchs. She could not

:06:52. > :06:56.see them face`to`face because she was a woman and they were men. She

:06:57. > :07:03.had to sit behind a screen, not on the throne. Her five`year`old son

:07:04. > :07:08.was on the throne and she was behind a screen. The officials would

:07:09. > :07:28.prostrate themselves before the throne. She never set foot in that

:07:29. > :07:32.front part of the Forbidden City. Even though she was the supreme

:07:33. > :07:36.ruler of China for half a century. She was confined to the back, the

:07:37. > :07:44.harem. The relationship between the Empress, who was a concubine, and

:07:45. > :07:50.the Empress is an interesting one. Tell us how that relationship

:07:51. > :07:55.worked. Although she had not given the Emperor the son she wanted, it

:07:56. > :08:04.was Cixi who had the son. The Empress and her relationship with

:08:05. > :08:20.Empress Zhen is interesting. I was astonished. My idea of the harem was

:08:21. > :08:23.women stabbing each other in the back. I found that it was like that.

:08:24. > :08:29.The Empress Zhen and Cixi, the concubine, became best friends. They

:08:30. > :08:32.launched a coup together. Together, they faced death by 1000 cuts, that

:08:33. > :08:50.was the punishment which was in practice in China. It was given for

:08:51. > :08:53.treason and what they did was treason. After the coup, they ruled

:08:54. > :08:55.together from behind the screen. They divided their work and

:08:56. > :09:01.collaborated well until 1882, 20 years later, when Empress Zhen died

:09:02. > :09:04.of a stroke. Cixi, she had always been accused of murdering her, but

:09:05. > :09:18.documents and archives have proved that she died of a massive brain

:09:19. > :09:22.haemorrhage. And they were actually best friends. The subtitle of your

:09:23. > :09:30.book is "the concubine who launched modern China." Lay out for us what

:09:31. > :09:33.the reforms are you attribute to her. What we have today, modern

:09:34. > :09:56.things, which existed in the 19th century, were brought in by Cixi.

:09:57. > :09:58.Electricity, the telegraph, telephones, railways, modern mining,

:09:59. > :10:00.modern industry, a modern Navy, ironclad, which had just been

:10:01. > :10:05.invented in Europe. A modern equipped army. And educational

:10:06. > :10:07.system. A Chinese educational system, traditionally, was to

:10:08. > :10:10.subject a four`year`old boy to this regime of spending every waking hour

:10:11. > :10:12.memorising the classics of Confucius, which were dry and

:10:13. > :10:25.incomprehensible, certainly for a four`year`old. Many people at the

:10:26. > :10:49.time described it as intellectual infanticide. Cixi, herself, did not

:10:50. > :10:52.go through the regime because she was a woman. She was described as

:10:53. > :10:56.semi`illiterate. That may have worked to her advantage, because she

:10:57. > :11:04.kept a supple mind, an open mind that was ready to absorb new ideas.

:11:05. > :11:06.When she had power, she threw out that system and today the Chinese

:11:07. > :11:13.educational systems are based on Western educational systems brought

:11:14. > :11:16.in by her. Of course, as we mentioned, she banned foot binding,

:11:17. > :11:37.she launched women's liberation and encourage them to have a public

:11:38. > :11:41.life. She ousted death by 1000 cuts. She died in 1908. She brought in

:11:42. > :11:44.Western legal systems. The passion with which you speak about her

:11:45. > :12:03.suggests a closeness, an attachment, to your subject. Tell me a little

:12:04. > :12:06.bit about how that developed. As you were researching, did you feel that

:12:07. > :12:10.she was someone that you changed your view? Did you actually begin to

:12:11. > :12:14.become fond of her? The thing is, I did not have a view about her, but I

:12:15. > :12:17.heard a lot about her when I grew up. She was big in China. But she

:12:18. > :12:21.was always the villain, always condemned for all the wrongs of

:12:22. > :12:24.China. I grew up with an earful of how awful she was. I was first

:12:25. > :12:31.surprised, as I said, more than 20 years ago, by this foot binding

:12:32. > :12:34.thing I discovered. Then when I was researching the biography of Mao, I

:12:35. > :12:37.was astonished by the opportunities and the freedom, the freedom the

:12:38. > :12:49.young Mao enjoyed growing up under her, and in her legacy. He was born

:12:50. > :12:53.in 1893. The thing is, Mao was a peasant lad, but he could easily get

:12:54. > :12:55.scholarships to go to college, to go abroad, he could travel with his

:12:56. > :12:57.girlfriends, check into hotels, and he could write for an incredibly

:12:58. > :13:10.free press. By the way, Cixi also introduced the

:13:11. > :13:12.press into China, which was much more free than the press we have

:13:13. > :13:26.today in China. That also astonished me, because all

:13:27. > :13:31.of these things, Mao could do 100 years ago. It was something I could

:13:32. > :13:39.not dream of doing when I was growing up under Mao. So I feel

:13:40. > :13:48.there is a degree of astonishment, when I was researching the Empress

:13:49. > :13:51.Dowager. And also, then, if you Google her today, you will probably

:13:52. > :13:58.still see her as being described as this conservative diehard despot.

:13:59. > :14:04.You know, so on, and all these untrue things attributed to her. I

:14:05. > :14:06.just feel it was very unjust. Certainly some historians have

:14:07. > :14:10.argued that the reforms that you attributed to Cixi, they were more

:14:11. > :14:12.to do with the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion and the Taiping

:14:13. > :14:19.Rebellion in 1864, which was a complete turning point for that

:14:20. > :14:22.dynasty. There was an element of devolved power to the provincial

:14:23. > :14:25.governors, and they had sufficient power, which actually meant that she

:14:26. > :14:36.may not have been the originator of all the reforms you attribute to

:14:37. > :14:40.her. You see, I don't think that is true. Yes, the provincial chiefs had

:14:41. > :14:49.tremendous power, but Cixi gave them the power. In that dynasty, the

:14:50. > :14:52.Emperor made the decision. There was not even a prime minister to help

:14:53. > :14:57.make the decision. There was certainly no cabinet. When Cixi's

:14:58. > :15:01.son was five years old, when her son took over but died in a couple of

:15:02. > :15:11.years time, Cixi then adopted a three`year`old. Her nephew. She put

:15:12. > :15:19.the three`year old on the throne and she continued to rule from behind

:15:20. > :15:29.the screen. Through all these years, she was exercising the Emperor's

:15:30. > :15:32.power. She issued the edict. It is not true that the provincial bigshot

:15:33. > :15:37.called the shots. They all had to obey the imperial edicts. No`one

:15:38. > :15:48.could issue those imperial edicts apart from Cixi. When her adopted

:15:49. > :15:51.son was young. So you do not accept at all that she was in some way

:15:52. > :15:59.dependent on those provincial governors? Like a good leader, she

:16:00. > :16:02.asked people to debate. She took good opinions. Let's talk about how

:16:03. > :16:07.it worked inside the Imperial Palace. We have heard a little about

:16:08. > :16:10.how she had to do all of her business behind the screen, but the

:16:11. > :16:13.powerplay inside the imperial court, that is something that you talk

:16:14. > :16:16.about in the book, the backstabbing that goes on, she was a part of that

:16:17. > :16:19.as well, however reforming she was in her mindset, there was a

:16:20. > :16:23.ruthlessness, she would not have triumphed in the way that she had

:16:24. > :16:39.done if she was not informed by a ruthlessness in her character. Yes,

:16:40. > :16:49.yes, she was not a shrinking violet. She had a steely iron wrist. She was

:16:50. > :16:53.capable of immense ruthlessness. As you said, the court had lots of

:16:54. > :16:56.battles, but it all boils down to reform or not to reform, to open up

:16:57. > :16:59.to the west, and accept Western missionaries, and Western contacts,

:17:00. > :17:23.send people abroad and so on, or to close up China. Cixi really dragged

:17:24. > :17:26.China into modernity. How she dealt with the conservatives was most

:17:27. > :17:28.interesting, because she never killed anyone, because they were

:17:29. > :17:36.conservatives or they did not agree with her. Later, she killed a few

:17:37. > :17:43.people because they tried to kill her. But for the conservatives, she

:17:44. > :17:53.preferred to take them along and to reach a consensus, and to reform

:17:54. > :18:01.China together. That meant that Chinese reforms in those years, they

:18:02. > :18:07.were earthshattering. But they did not seem to be drastic, because no

:18:08. > :18:11.blood was shed. This book was many years in the making, not as long as

:18:12. > :18:13.the research for the Mao book, but I wonder if you can say something

:18:14. > :18:20.about the process of researching this particular book? The wonderful

:18:21. > :18:29.thing about writing the Empress Dowager was the archives about her

:18:30. > :18:38.and her dynasties, they are open. In fact, they have been open from the

:18:39. > :18:41.late 1970s, after Mao had died. The scholars, Chinese scholars, have

:18:42. > :18:49.been working on these archives in the Forbidden City. In the Forbidden

:18:50. > :18:54.City alone there are over ten million documents. Most of the

:18:55. > :18:58.imperial decrees are digitised. My research was often sitting in the

:18:59. > :19:02.comfort of my London study, bringing up these imperial decrees on the

:19:03. > :19:08.screen. Contemporaries, diaries, they were published, the memoirs of

:19:09. > :19:08.the time. Not to mention the vast archive materials in the

:19:09. > :19:20.Archives at Kew, and the Royal Archives at Windsor, where I had

:19:21. > :19:22.riveting times finding all these documents. That is very different

:19:23. > :19:25.from my previous biography, the biography of Mao, because Mao, his

:19:26. > :19:33.portrait is in Tiananmen. His corpse is

:19:34. > :19:40.Chinese capital. His face is on every Chinese banknote.

:19:41. > :19:54.heirs. Mao is still very covered up. My husband and I had to work like

:19:55. > :20:00.two detectives to get to the bottom of things and it took us 12 years.

:20:01. > :20:03.In some respects, you could argue that in terms of the big picture and

:20:04. > :20:06.China today, many of the issues that faced the dynasty in Cixi's time,

:20:07. > :20:16.they could be compared to the challenges for the president now. I

:20:17. > :20:17.never write my books with a current hook, or thinking about the current

:20:18. > :20:29.relevance. with the evidence, so I wrote Cixi

:20:30. > :20:47.purely about Cixi. everything. Now where do we go from

:20:48. > :20:54.here? Cixi's answer was go for a parliamentary monarchy. The

:20:55. > :21:13.legitimacy of the regime came into question for Cixi as

:21:14. > :21:23.rigid court etiquette. She introduced everything,

:21:24. > :21:24.and so on, but she never got into a car. This was because in front of

:21:25. > :21:32.her, permission, they could stand up, but

:21:33. > :21:36.in the chauffeur, became an insurmountable

:21:37. > :21:52.problem, because he could not dry kneeling down, and he could not dry

:21:53. > :21:54.standing up. `` drive. But she also of course realised that the dynasty

:21:55. > :22:01.could not survive on people kowtowing, going down on their

:22:02. > :22:04.knees. It needs fundamental changes. She wanted to introduce that

:22:05. > :22:11.legitimacy by building a British style constitutional monarchy. And

:22:12. > :22:12.she launched this project in 1905 and made all sorts of preparations,

:22:13. > :22:25.including making a nine`year plan from 1908. So, in nine years' time,

:22:26. > :22:35.China would have finished these preparations, and there would have

:22:36. > :22:40.been a vote. But that is not the road that today's regime is prepared

:22:41. > :22:42.to go down. Please join me to thank Jung Chang for a fascinating talk.

:22:43. > :23:18.Thank you. Over the past few days, some of us

:23:19. > :23:21.have been relentlessly grey, others humid, with thunderstorms. Today,

:23:22. > :23:24.most of us in the same boat. A welcome change for many. Some

:23:25. > :23:25.sunshine, fresh, a good day to be out