Lionel Shriver

:00:00. > :00:31.Time for a special programme, talking books with Lionel Shriver.

:00:32. > :00:37.Hello and welcome to the Hay Festival. People will cover in this

:00:38. > :00:41.beautiful spot in Wales to listen to the world's finest writers and

:00:42. > :00:43.thinkers. They will also get a chance to listen in on the

:00:44. > :00:49.conversations of people from the world of State and screen -- stage.

:00:50. > :00:54.Music and literature. Let's introduce you to Lionel Shriver.

:00:55. > :01:10.APPLAUSE Lionel has probably written a look

:01:11. > :01:15.about it if you name a subject. Parents, are beta T, the more

:01:16. > :01:19.controversial the better. -- obesity. In this book, we have

:01:20. > :01:25.dystopian vision of America, the mightiest nation of the planet

:01:26. > :01:28.brought down, brought low because its people, its government have not

:01:29. > :01:33.been able to live within their needs and to manage their finances. In the

:01:34. > :01:35.middle of all that, there is a family, the mandibles, they have

:01:36. > :01:44.expected this family will be hand-me-down well. -- wealth. That

:01:45. > :01:50.just disappears. Nothing goes to plan. One of the characters in the

:01:51. > :01:54.book says that when we talk about a plot in the future, what we are

:01:55. > :02:02.really referring to is what we fear most in the present. I wondered

:02:03. > :02:05.whether this kind of chaos in America, this collapse in America,

:02:06. > :02:08.is the kind of thing you are seriously frightened off now and is

:02:09. > :02:17.that what Americans are frightened off now? I think it's something that

:02:18. > :02:24.everyone should be worried about that has a currency that isn't

:02:25. > :02:32.raised on anything, the gold standard currency in gold. There are

:02:33. > :02:40.no more gold standard, all currencies are beyond currencies.

:02:41. > :02:45.They are all ideas which we have to believe and with some frequency, the

:02:46. > :02:53.ID collapses and people lose faith. -- the idea. Venezuela has an

:02:54. > :03:00.inflation rate of 700%. Imagine what life is like in that country. I can

:03:01. > :03:05.see what happens when you get that type of hyperinflation that do you

:03:06. > :03:11.genuinely fear that this might be a possibility in America? The book is

:03:12. > :03:14.set in 2029, not so far away, to you think that will happen? Do you think

:03:15. > :03:21.that Americans genuinely fear that right now? A collapse? Americans

:03:22. > :03:33.have a lot more to be worried about right now. LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE. I

:03:34. > :03:44.am interested in sovereign debt and in debt generally. Despite what we

:03:45. > :03:49.should have learned in 2008, the world is more indebted than

:03:50. > :03:54.everywhere. From the individual to the sovereign. If you look at that

:03:55. > :03:58.level of indebtedness, once you cross a certain line, seriously, you

:03:59. > :04:05.ever going to be paying money back? My question is, if you are dealing

:04:06. > :04:10.with an enormous amount of money which is never going to be paid

:04:11. > :04:15.back, is that money real? I'm afraid the answer has to be no, it isn't.

:04:16. > :04:24.That means our entire international economy is based on fake money.

:04:25. > :04:33.That's why I don't think that the plot of the Mandibles isn't so

:04:34. > :04:36.far-fetched. He has to explain to his people what is going on and how

:04:37. > :04:39.is going to deal with it, how the nation is going to deal with it.

:04:40. > :04:42.Either the preamble if you like, if you could just read a short passage,

:04:43. > :04:48.I thought that speech from the President, it pricked the bubble of

:04:49. > :04:55.exceptionalism that sometimes we think have. Americans He is trying

:04:56. > :05:03.to carry on as if America is still able to cope with it. This is early

:05:04. > :05:08.on in the novel so I don't think it is too much of a spoiler. " Good

:05:09. > :05:14.evening, fellow Americans. During the past week, our nation has once

:05:15. > :05:19.again been under attack. No towering skyscrapers have tumbled. Instead,

:05:20. > :05:25.what has been targeting -- targeted is the very medium with which we can

:05:26. > :05:29.conduct commerce with one another. Our debts are repaid, our tables are

:05:30. > :05:35.laid and our children are secured medicines for their ailments. What

:05:36. > :05:42.is at risk is no less than the almighty dollar it self. World

:05:43. > :05:45.leaders who resent the power, suppressed each and success of our

:05:46. > :05:53.great nation have cobbled together the so-called bank or. An artificial

:05:54. > :05:58.pretend currency with no history as legal tender. Make no mistake, the

:05:59. > :06:06.bank or is no alternative to the dollar. It is meant to replace the

:06:07. > :06:09.dollar. In a move every bit as threatening as raising a gun to our

:06:10. > :06:14.heads, we have been in form that the raw materials on which we depend on

:06:15. > :06:23.for our Leslie Cordes, must be traded. -- livelihood. The United

:06:24. > :06:28.States Department of the Treasury has also been apprised that American

:06:29. > :06:34.bonds held by foreign investors may henceforth be sold. It is a

:06:35. > :06:40.challenge to our very sovereignty to our nation. It is the intention of

:06:41. > :06:44.the conspiracy of foreign powers to yoke the government of this are lost

:06:45. > :06:51.to a slant with an entire Law Ball and infeasible encumbrance from the

:06:52. > :06:56.interest of its best. Debt. Debt was borrowed in good faith and under

:06:57. > :07:01.anything but the most extraordinary circumstances, would have been

:07:02. > :07:06.repaid in good faith but when it is returned with malice and betrayal,

:07:07. > :07:12.continued good faith counts as only as credulity and weakness. What is

:07:13. > :07:16.more, this great country will not so honour its obligations as to destroy

:07:17. > :07:21.its very existence in the process. A nation conceived in liberty cannot

:07:22. > :07:27.conduct its daily business on its knees. As of this evening, this

:07:28. > :07:32.administration has declared a universal reset. In the interest of

:07:33. > :07:37.preserving the very nation that would meet its obligations of the

:07:38. > :07:42.future, we are compelled to put aside the obligations of the past.

:07:43. > :07:50.All Treasury bills, notes and bonds are forthwith declared null and

:07:51. > :07:54.void. Many of data has wept in gratitude for the mercy of a wiped

:07:55. > :07:59.the slate. The right to a second chance. Which, for individuals and

:08:00. > :08:05.corporations alike, all fair-minded judicial system is like our rain had

:08:06. > :08:12.enshrined in law. Also, must government, be able to draw a line

:08:13. > :08:19.and say he would begin afresh. -- here we begin. Our heights

:08:20. > :08:26.gladdened, confident in the endurance of the greatest country on

:08:27. > :08:35.earth, God bless you and God bless the United States of America."

:08:36. > :08:46.APPLAUSE That was frighteningly credible. And it sounded like utter

:08:47. > :08:50.rubbish. That is the gloss. Interestingly, by the way, he gives

:08:51. > :08:57.a speech at first in Spanish and then it is translated into English.

:08:58. > :09:09.Controversially, this first Hispanic and Mexican President. You think

:09:10. > :09:21.that's incredible? LAUGHTER. Interesting. This event of the US

:09:22. > :09:27.reneging on its debt sets off a sequence of financial dominoes

:09:28. > :09:32.which, I believe, is fully credible. When you don't pay your debts back

:09:33. > :09:41.then nobody wants to loan you money. That's just normal. But the US is

:09:42. > :09:47.running a big deficit because of all the expenses of Medicare and Social

:09:48. > :09:52.Security and therefore, in order to cover its deficit, it starts

:09:53. > :09:57.printing money and therefore, the inflation rate starts going up. What

:09:58. > :10:04.struck me powerfully and it's one of the things I learned from being a

:10:05. > :10:10.foreign correspondence, the thing we call civilisation, you just take one

:10:11. > :10:17.little prop away and the whole thing seems to fall apart. Once you go to

:10:18. > :10:20.the grocery store and there is either no food or its unaffordable,

:10:21. > :10:28.life falls apart. That's really all it takes. If you look at the history

:10:29. > :10:34.of most dystopic novels, there are up almost always set in cities and

:10:35. > :10:39.that is because cities are horribly and terrifyingly interdependent,

:10:40. > :10:45.interrelated, everything has to work in order for it to work at all.

:10:46. > :10:50.Pretty much everything. Once the system is by which we get fed, we

:10:51. > :10:55.get water, we dispose of our sewerage, are disrupted, then yes,

:10:56. > :11:09.people get desperate and it changes are that it changes the behaviour

:11:10. > :11:12.radically. You mentioned Medicare which is what passes for welfare in

:11:13. > :11:18.America, there are four generations in this family, the eldest Douglas,

:11:19. > :11:23.they are all having to be looked after, if you like, at some point in

:11:24. > :11:32.alliance by the State. There is an intergenerational conflict. --

:11:33. > :11:36.looked after by the state. Also the third and fourth generations who are

:11:37. > :11:40.also in the book. The novel is definitely looking at the tension

:11:41. > :11:44.between the division of resources between generations. Both my

:11:45. > :11:47.parents' generation and my generation are looking to be taking

:11:48. > :11:54.many more resources than we put in. Mostly because of longevity and the

:11:55. > :11:59.cost of healthcare. What that means is that the generation behind me and

:12:00. > :12:12.behind them, there is a double whammy problem because not only are

:12:13. > :12:16.they going to get taxed up the whazoo in order to pay for my knee

:12:17. > :12:22.replacements, they are also not going to come into the same state

:12:23. > :12:25.care themselves. They won't get knee replacements. They will have to

:12:26. > :12:33.raise the money themselves. This is an insider allusion to my own work.

:12:34. > :12:41.In the future, you have nursing home shootings, not school shootings.

:12:42. > :12:46.LAUGHTER. I love that. You obviously did a huge amount of research on the

:12:47. > :12:51.way the financial system works and what it would take to bring down, as

:12:52. > :12:56.you suggested. Some people have said too much of that ends up on the

:12:57. > :13:01.page. Either you feel strongly that it has to be there. I wanted to tell

:13:02. > :13:05.two different stories simultaneously. One of them is, in

:13:06. > :13:11.the foreground, what happens to this particular family. I also wanted to

:13:12. > :13:16.tell a credible future history of will the economy of the United

:13:17. > :13:24.States. It was important to me that that makes sense. That the sequence

:13:25. > :13:28.is credible and connected. It means that there is a certain amount of

:13:29. > :13:34.economics in the mouths of Mike characters and I am sympathetic with

:13:35. > :13:40.readers. I tried not to overdo it. -- my characters. I think if you put

:13:41. > :13:45.information in dialogue it can enliven it with passion and with

:13:46. > :13:50.purpose. In a way that if it is just a flat on the page you do not get.

:13:51. > :13:58.These are people sitting around the dinner table. In my house, we talk

:13:59. > :14:01.of this way all the time. It seems completely credible. I have advised

:14:02. > :14:02.readers who get impatient, if that side of the book doesn't interest

:14:03. > :14:13.you, skip it. We have a situation where America is

:14:14. > :14:21.collapsing and people are trying to get out. There were quite like to go

:14:22. > :14:26.to Mexico, I did use the Mexicans who are worried and put up a wall in

:14:27. > :14:29.The Mandibles. Yes, in my book, and I did not get this from a certain

:14:30. > :14:32.someone... LAUGHTER

:14:33. > :14:40.You would have written this well before. Yes, there is an enormous

:14:41. > :14:44.fence or wall put up between the United States and Mexico, but Mexico

:14:45. > :14:50.not only pays for it but put it up. And it is to keep the Americans out.

:14:51. > :14:55.LAUGHTER If we can digress a little bit from

:14:56. > :14:58.the book, help us understand, and you alluded to it earlier, what is

:14:59. > :15:07.going on at the moment? You have Donald Trump talking about building

:15:08. > :15:09.this wall. He is now through as the Republican Party candidate and will

:15:10. > :15:14.stand for president. Help us understand what is happening in

:15:15. > :15:19.America that such a thing might happen? You know, I don't know. I'm

:15:20. > :15:23.starting to feel I don't spend enough time there. I don't

:15:24. > :15:32.understand this. If you were to write Donald Trump as a serious

:15:33. > :15:40.nominee, as a character in a novel, he would not be persuasive. Nobody

:15:41. > :15:44.would buy it. He is so broad that he is fictionally incredible. He would

:15:45. > :15:55.never work on the page. Because of the books you have written, things

:15:56. > :16:00.like We Need To Talk About Kevin, a lot of people are puzzled, what kind

:16:01. > :16:04.of woman writes these books? I'm told in The Mandibles, there is a

:16:05. > :16:13.character, a wonderful character, but it isn't anagram of your name.

:16:14. > :16:19.-- it is. That is correct. I thought this is my 12th novel, and maybe I

:16:20. > :16:23.can get away with things in my decrepitude I would not have dared

:16:24. > :16:29.to do when I was young. So I did insert myself deliberately into this

:16:30. > :16:40.book. Although, at an age when we are the worse for wear, and I had

:16:41. > :16:43.originally brought in this character, and it is an anagram of

:16:44. > :16:49.my name, and she is 73 when the book begins. She is a professional writer

:16:50. > :16:55.or used to be, but she will not write from nothing. There is no

:16:56. > :16:59.publishing industry any more. She is obnoxious, cantankerous,

:17:00. > :17:05.opinionated, and tactless. LAUGHTER

:17:06. > :17:12.Bell-mac the trouble was, I expected to use her just to take the Mickey

:17:13. > :17:15.out of myself and people like me. She does constant calisthenics,

:17:16. > :17:20.although her form starts to degenerate, so she does the star

:17:21. > :17:23.jumps like this. Do you do exercise? Yes, I do.

:17:24. > :17:28.LAUGHTER What you do? I do star jumps!

:17:29. > :17:32.LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

:17:33. > :17:38.I won't ask you to give us an example.

:17:39. > :17:43.The funny thing is, as I wrote, I meant her to be a figure of fun

:17:44. > :17:51.exclusively, but I became rather fond of her. I have to say, I don't

:17:52. > :17:56.agree are giving anything away, you do become fond of her. There are two

:17:57. > :18:01.characters who come out of this book, and you are very fond of them.

:18:02. > :18:09.I mentioned Kevin, and I hope you don't mind that we need to talk

:18:10. > :18:15.about Kevin, sorry about the pan. -- pun. This is a controversial issue

:18:16. > :18:20.you have taken on, about parenting, any consequences of if you get it

:18:21. > :18:25.right or wrong. The narrator in Kevin, some of you will have read

:18:26. > :18:29.it, is either. She says somewhere where she talks about the outrageous

:18:30. > :18:36.gamble of having a child -- Eva. What does that mean? I think she

:18:37. > :18:45.says it is like leaving your front door unlocked. Anybody could walk

:18:46. > :18:51.in. Most people think of that, including the uncertainty, as

:18:52. > :18:57.something quite attractive. Yes, I admire parents who are willing to

:18:58. > :19:04.take that gamble. My parents to that gamble, and look what happened. --

:19:05. > :19:09.took. But it does take an enormous leap of faith to get pregnant,

:19:10. > :19:16.because my general view of humanity is that you certainly, while parents

:19:17. > :19:20.have some control, we can at least agree they don't have absolute

:19:21. > :19:24.control over how their kids turn out. There is a lot about children

:19:25. > :19:32.that you just accept they turn out that way. Often, it is a lovely

:19:33. > :19:38.surprise, and those parents are very fortunate. But especially since

:19:39. > :19:49.publishing We Need To Talk About Kevin, I have spoken to many

:19:50. > :19:55.parents, and it was very painful when it goes wrong. That book asks

:19:56. > :20:00.the question, when it does go wrong, how much is it your fault? That is

:20:01. > :20:06.one of the burdens of parenthood, never knowing how much you do

:20:07. > :20:12.control. We don't just think about parenting as desirable here, haven't

:20:13. > :20:17.we got to the stage where we think of it is a right? I have advocated

:20:18. > :20:27.for a long time I think in order for the NHS to survive, state-sponsored

:20:28. > :20:35.healthcare systems, they have to shrink their core purpose down to

:20:36. > :20:40.the curing of disease and disability, but not the curing of

:20:41. > :20:44.dissatisfaction, and that means errant is not a right. It is an

:20:45. > :20:54.economic issue. Not because I hate children. -- parenthood is not a

:20:55. > :21:02.right. What about this idea that actually being human is about being

:21:03. > :21:09.able, wanting to end being able to, have children? I do think it is a

:21:10. > :21:15.powerful human drive, which I seem to have been deprived of, and

:21:16. > :21:21.unsympathetic with it. As a matter of fact, after I published Kevin, I

:21:22. > :21:26.wrote an essay for the Guardian weekend magazine in which I put

:21:27. > :21:32.forward a point of view that is completely counter to that book,

:21:33. > :21:37.which is that if anything, people like me have become too selfish and

:21:38. > :21:41.two oriented towards our own personal happiness, and under

:21:42. > :21:50.appreciative of the importance of lineage, of our cultural and he

:21:51. > :22:02.jetted inheritance. We are not interested in pursuing duty --

:22:03. > :22:05.patriotic inheritance. We have been become focused on our own personal

:22:06. > :22:12.satisfaction, which often precludes children. I was advocating the

:22:13. > :22:15.pursuit of an older and more storeyed sense of human meaning,

:22:16. > :22:23.which is that we see ourselves as a part of these larger projects, and

:22:24. > :22:27.we know that lots is come before us, and we hope much will come after us,

:22:28. > :22:34.and we will do our part to him the button on. -- hand the baton on. It

:22:35. > :22:37.is a large part of what means to be human, and it is an idea I have

:22:38. > :22:44.personally failed. I don't have any children. But we have books. We do.

:22:45. > :22:49.Ladies and judgement, Lionel Shriver.