0:52:34 > 0:52:38We're back in a brand-new cultural destination.
0:52:38 > 0:52:44Not in Belfast, London or Dublin, but Bellaghy in County Derry.
0:52:44 > 0:52:48It may not trip off the tongue as easily as a Heaney poem,
0:52:48 > 0:52:51but the brand-new arts centre, the Seamus Heaney HomePlace,
0:52:51 > 0:52:55has now opened rural mid-Ulster to the world.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01On the site of a former RUC barracks,
0:53:01 > 0:53:04it cost £4.25 million to build,
0:53:04 > 0:53:07with the Heaney family at the heart and soul of it.
0:53:12 > 0:53:17The centre covers two floors with the theatre and a permanent display
0:53:17 > 0:53:20of previously unseen family archive,
0:53:20 > 0:53:23and a recreation of Heaney's study,
0:53:23 > 0:53:27in which he wrote so much of his Nobel Prize-winning poetry.
0:53:31 > 0:53:35But it is more than a museum to the man.
0:53:35 > 0:53:39There is an emotional pull that Seamus would have delighted in.
0:53:59 > 0:54:02Coming up, festival fever or fatigue?
0:54:02 > 0:54:04With the big daddy of festivals
0:54:04 > 0:54:07on right now, is there just too many?
0:54:07 > 0:54:10Singer-songwriter, and now add extreme weather performer,
0:54:10 > 0:54:12Lisa Hannigan.
0:54:12 > 0:54:14Put the bins out, the Pope of trash
0:54:14 > 0:54:15John Waters is en route.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19And Stephen Connolly waxes poetic
0:54:19 > 0:54:21about his hero Seamus Heaney.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24But first, ahead of his flying visit in December,
0:54:24 > 0:54:26the wizard of the waltz, Andre Rieu,
0:54:26 > 0:54:29on the art that first blew his mind.
0:54:31 > 0:54:38# The hills are alive with the sound of music... #
0:54:38 > 0:54:42The Sound Of Music, the number one movie, film, in the world.
0:54:42 > 0:54:47I was so in love with Julie Andrews. I'll never forget it.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49I couldn't sleep the whole night.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52And still I look at it very, very often.
0:54:52 > 0:54:54Oh, let's see if I can make it easier.
0:54:57 > 0:55:00My mother tells me I must have been three years old.
0:55:00 > 0:55:04I was sitting in a concert with my father
0:55:04 > 0:55:09and I saw all these bows of the strings go up and down.
0:55:09 > 0:55:10And that was...
0:55:10 > 0:55:15That made such an impression on me and there was a violinist,
0:55:15 > 0:55:19a girl, playing and I was sure I wanted to do that too.
0:55:22 > 0:55:26It's not one book, it's a whole series of books. It's Tintin.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29You know, and the captain and the little dog?
0:55:29 > 0:55:32I was fond of it and I still read that.
0:55:32 > 0:55:36And, in fact, in one of the books the Captain bought a castle
0:55:36 > 0:55:41and when I saw that picture of the captain and Tintin
0:55:41 > 0:55:46walking through the castle, I thought I want to have a castle too.
0:55:46 > 0:55:51I don't know, I never go to the theatre but...
0:55:52 > 0:55:56..I love, for example, Romeo And Juliet from Shakespeare.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00And I saw the movie by Zeffirelli.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04You know, always when I go to the theatre, I want it bigger,
0:56:04 > 0:56:06I want the whole thing.
0:56:06 > 0:56:11And in the theatre, you know, it's only onstage, so that's...
0:56:11 > 0:56:13why I never go to the theatre. I want...
0:56:13 > 0:56:14CRESCENDO
0:56:16 > 0:56:19The Pieta by Michelangelo.
0:56:19 > 0:56:23When you really stand in front of that masterpiece
0:56:23 > 0:56:27and you know that he made that when he was 23 years old,
0:56:27 > 0:56:29I mean, that's...
0:56:29 > 0:56:34that's divine, incredible, that a man can make that.
0:56:34 > 0:56:36So, for me, that's art.
0:56:47 > 0:56:51With so many festivals scattered across the calendar year,
0:56:51 > 0:56:54are we now at saturation point?
0:56:54 > 0:56:57Ruth McCarthy is Artistic Director of the Outburst Festival...
0:56:57 > 0:57:02Shona McCarthy is Chief Executive of the Edinburgh Festival Fringe...
0:57:02 > 0:57:05and Mark Phelan is Head Of Drama at Queens University.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10The big festival that's happening at the moment
0:57:10 > 0:57:13is the Ulster Bank Belfast International Arts Festival.
0:57:13 > 0:57:17Are the days of that kind of festival gone, Mark?
0:57:17 > 0:57:18I don't think so.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21I mean, one of the most encouraging things in the arts scene
0:57:21 > 0:57:24in the last two decades, I suppose,
0:57:24 > 0:57:27since this putatively post-conflict kind of period
0:57:27 > 0:57:30has been an explosion of arts festivals.
0:57:30 > 0:57:31That's true right throughout the UK.
0:57:31 > 0:57:35And throughout Western Europe you see this as a phenomenon everywhere.
0:57:35 > 0:57:38But has the International Festival suffered
0:57:38 > 0:57:42because of the likes of Outburst or the Cathedral Quarter?
0:57:42 > 0:57:44No, I don't see any competition between arts festivals.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47I see a very complicated and a very diverse
0:57:47 > 0:57:49and a dynamic ecology of festivals.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51And I think there will always be, within, as I say,
0:57:51 > 0:57:56the very varied ecology of festivals in this city,
0:57:56 > 0:57:58there's always going to be a role
0:57:58 > 0:58:00for a major international arts festival,
0:58:00 > 0:58:01and that is the Belfast Festival.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03So, I think it's tremendously important,
0:58:03 > 0:58:05both in terms of importing international work,
0:58:05 > 0:58:09but also providing a platform and a birth for local theatre companies
0:58:09 > 0:58:12and arts organisations and artists to stage their work
0:58:12 > 0:58:14in the context of a larger international festival.
0:58:14 > 0:58:17But surely that was what the Belfast Festival was doing.
0:58:17 > 0:58:19It was bringing in international art,
0:58:19 > 0:58:22it was bringing in local people.
0:58:22 > 0:58:26I kind of feel that it now has had to cede, in some way,
0:58:26 > 0:58:29to the other festivals coming in.
0:58:29 > 0:58:31There are audiences who will naturally go to something
0:58:31 > 0:58:34like the Belfast International Festival and there are audiences
0:58:34 > 0:58:35who come to Outburst,
0:58:35 > 0:58:38who come to Outburst because they might be LGBT
0:58:38 > 0:58:40or they might want to see something a bit different,
0:58:40 > 0:58:43and those people... We're growing audiences.
0:58:43 > 0:58:48The smaller festivals actually expand what bigger festivals can do.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51- So you're not rivals then? You wouldn't see...?- I don't...
0:58:51 > 0:58:52I don't think so at all.
0:58:52 > 0:58:55Practically every festival that happened in Belfast
0:58:55 > 0:58:57has a very different remit and can have very different audiences.
0:58:57 > 0:59:00Edinburgh did this massive piece of work across all of the festivals
0:59:00 > 0:59:02to look at the economic impact,
0:59:02 > 0:59:04because that's what the Government wanted to know.
0:59:04 > 0:59:08So there's at least 280 million back into the economy of the city
0:59:08 > 0:59:11- just from the 12 festivals, just from those 12 festivals.- Right.
0:59:11 > 0:59:14Now it's all, "Well, what about the social impact, guys?"
0:59:14 > 0:59:17You know, "How are you impacting on poverty?"
0:59:17 > 0:59:19You play so hard to gather one piece of evidence,
0:59:19 > 0:59:22and just at the minute you provide all that,
0:59:22 > 0:59:25it's, "Well, what's your economic impact, Ruth?"
0:59:25 > 0:59:27I mean, and they keep changing the goalposts that way.
0:59:27 > 0:59:30I think it is a mistake to simply look at the arts
0:59:30 > 0:59:32in relation to how much economic
0:59:32 > 0:59:34return they can generate because, you know,
0:59:34 > 0:59:38you think of the role theatre played in apartheid South Africa,
0:59:38 > 0:59:39in the liberation struggle there.
0:59:39 > 0:59:41Czechoslovakia, where you have a playwright
0:59:41 > 0:59:45that becomes president of a new democratic society.
0:59:45 > 0:59:49So, the arts matter in ways that aren't simply materialistic
0:59:49 > 0:59:53but in terms of a healthy, civic, democratic culture.
0:59:54 > 0:59:57Well, as we've been hearing, there's a lot of events happening now,
0:59:57 > 0:59:59not least the daddy of them all,
0:59:59 > 1:00:02the Ulster Bank Belfast International Arts Festival.
1:00:02 > 1:00:05Do check out the darling of the New York arts scene, Taylor Mac,
1:00:05 > 1:00:09and check out our series of short films about the fest online.
1:00:10 > 1:00:14The Scissor Sisters' Ana Matronic rocked it two years ago
1:00:14 > 1:00:17and now voice of an angel Charlotte Church gives it some Welsh welly
1:00:17 > 1:00:20as she hosts the largest art prize in Ireland,
1:00:20 > 1:00:23the MAC International Ulster Bank Prize.
1:00:24 > 1:00:28Northern Irish artist Mairead McClean won the biennial prize
1:00:28 > 1:00:30in 2014 with her show, No More.
1:00:32 > 1:00:36And the ever-popular RUA exhibition at the Ulster Museum
1:00:36 > 1:00:40proves that you can still be well hung at 135.
1:00:44 > 1:00:46The great playwright Brian Friel did it
1:00:46 > 1:00:49and now Belfast writer Lucy Caldwell steps up to the plate
1:00:49 > 1:00:52to rework Chekhov's masterpiece Three Sisters.
1:00:52 > 1:00:561900s Russia does the time warp to 1990s Belfast,
1:00:56 > 1:00:59rocking the Lyric main stage till November.
1:01:01 > 1:01:04There's a new literature festival in town...well, city - Armagh city.
1:01:04 > 1:01:07The first-ever John O'Connor writing school being championed
1:01:07 > 1:01:10by the boy from the Moy, Paul Muldoon.
1:01:12 > 1:01:15And, with six decades under his rhinestone-studded belt,
1:01:15 > 1:01:18Kenny Rogers claims this is his last tour,
1:01:18 > 1:01:21but we may just call that gambler's bluff.
1:01:22 > 1:01:24Finally, Lisa Hannigan has a new album out
1:01:24 > 1:01:27and plays Londonderry and Belfast early December,
1:01:27 > 1:01:29which is as good an excuse as any
1:01:29 > 1:01:31for us to catch up with her in Dublin.
1:01:39 > 1:01:41This song is called Snow.
1:01:52 > 1:01:53# Heading from city to sea
1:01:53 > 1:01:55# Just you and me
1:01:55 > 1:01:57# Our boots creaking quietly
1:01:57 > 1:01:59# We would never be here again
1:02:01 > 1:02:06# Watching the snow falling down
1:02:06 > 1:02:11# Watching the city lose colour and sound
1:02:11 > 1:02:14# And we were looking
1:02:14 > 1:02:16# To find in the feather sky
1:02:16 > 1:02:18# The contour line from summer
1:02:18 > 1:02:19# To Christmas time
1:02:19 > 1:02:21# For the what
1:02:21 > 1:02:23# For the when
1:02:23 > 1:02:28# When you were the snow falling down
1:02:28 > 1:02:32# And I was the city losing colour and sound
1:02:32 > 1:02:35# And we were
1:02:35 > 1:02:40# Sunk like treasure
1:02:40 > 1:02:45# Sunk like treasure
1:02:45 > 1:02:50# Sunk like treasure
1:02:50 > 1:02:54# Sunk like treasure
1:02:57 > 1:02:59# Heading from city to sea
1:02:59 > 1:03:00# One facing east
1:03:00 > 1:03:03# One looking westerly
1:03:03 > 1:03:05# We would never be here again
1:03:06 > 1:03:11# Watching the snow falling down
1:03:11 > 1:03:15# Watching the city lose colour and sound
1:03:15 > 1:03:18# And we were
1:03:18 > 1:03:23# Sunk like treasure
1:03:23 > 1:03:28# Sunk like treasure
1:03:28 > 1:03:33# Sunk like treasure
1:03:33 > 1:03:38# Sunk like treasure. #
1:03:56 > 1:04:00We've got the Ulster Bank Belfast International Arts Festival
1:04:00 > 1:04:04happening in October, then you've got Outburst in November.
1:04:04 > 1:04:07Nothing, maybe, in December, then you've got Out To Lunch,
1:04:07 > 1:04:10the boutique festival from the Cathedral Quarter happening.
1:04:10 > 1:04:13So, is there a way of marrying those all together?
1:04:13 > 1:04:15Is that something that could happen?
1:04:15 > 1:04:17There are a dozen festivals in Edinburgh in a year,
1:04:17 > 1:04:20one for every month - that's not a bad metric.
1:04:20 > 1:04:22I think we should aim for something like that.
1:04:22 > 1:04:24Again, I don't know what a city looks like
1:04:24 > 1:04:26that has too many festivals.
1:04:26 > 1:04:29But I do know what a city looks like that has too little.
1:04:29 > 1:04:32- Because that's what this place was like 20 years ago.- Yes.
1:04:32 > 1:04:35But how many different audiences do we need? Belfast isn't that big.
1:04:35 > 1:04:37Well, can you have too much culture?
1:04:37 > 1:04:39I don't actually understand the question.
1:04:39 > 1:04:41What is the society that has too many arts events,
1:04:41 > 1:04:44too many cultural activities?
1:04:44 > 1:04:46I think the hallmark of a healthy society
1:04:46 > 1:04:49is a diverse and dynamic arts scene.
1:04:49 > 1:04:51And I think one of the most encouraging things
1:04:51 > 1:04:54with life in the city, and I speak as a generation,
1:04:54 > 1:04:57a large number of us, my generation, who grew up hating the city,
1:04:57 > 1:04:59and wanted to escape from it,
1:04:59 > 1:05:02one of the things that has helped me learn to love this place
1:05:02 > 1:05:05has been the work of Outburst and the International Festival
1:05:05 > 1:05:08and the Cathedral Quarter Festival and the East Belfast Festival...
1:05:08 > 1:05:10But are there too many, Shona?
1:05:10 > 1:05:12Well, if you look at Edinburgh,
1:05:12 > 1:05:14people have been asking this question for 70 years!
1:05:14 > 1:05:15I know, but they...
1:05:15 > 1:05:18The Edinburgh Fringe and the International Festival,
1:05:18 > 1:05:20the Film Festival, the Book Festival,
1:05:20 > 1:05:22they celebrate their 70th anniversary next year.
1:05:22 > 1:05:25But while you are there, I really want to get your experience.
1:05:25 > 1:05:26It all happens in one month.
1:05:26 > 1:05:28Is there something about it being concentrated into one month
1:05:28 > 1:05:34as opposed to what I feel sometimes are little empires of festivals
1:05:34 > 1:05:36happening right throughout the 12 months?
1:05:36 > 1:05:39You see, that isn't strictly true. That is just perception.
1:05:39 > 1:05:42There are actually 12 major festivals in Edinburgh
1:05:42 > 1:05:43that happen right across the year.
1:05:43 > 1:05:46There are only four of them that will all happen at the one time.
1:05:46 > 1:05:49But the perception is that they all happen at the one time
1:05:49 > 1:05:53because it happens to be two of the biggest happen right in August.
1:05:53 > 1:05:55Is that not a more successful strategy to have?
1:05:55 > 1:05:59Even in Edinburgh, the question is asked all the time, too.
1:05:59 > 1:06:03Should we be more supportive of the wider cultural sector all year round
1:06:03 > 1:06:06and not put the emphasis on funding into these festivals?
1:06:06 > 1:06:09And for me, it's kind of back to your point, Mark.
1:06:09 > 1:06:11It should be both and both.
1:06:11 > 1:06:13It shouldn't be either/or.
1:06:13 > 1:06:16And if the festivals can provide an incredible platform,
1:06:16 > 1:06:21that place where people just see something that inspires them,
1:06:21 > 1:06:22that wows them,
1:06:22 > 1:06:25and it provides a platform for local people to be able to showcase
1:06:25 > 1:06:29their work to external audiences as well as internal,
1:06:29 > 1:06:33then, to me, you kind of can't have too many.
1:06:33 > 1:06:36Outburst Festival, ten years old this year.
1:06:36 > 1:06:40What is the DNA of the festival? What is it?
1:06:40 > 1:06:43Outburst started very much as a community festival,
1:06:43 > 1:06:45as a space where people could share stories.
1:06:45 > 1:06:47We use the word "queer" deliberately
1:06:47 > 1:06:50because queer is very much on the outskirts,
1:06:50 > 1:06:53it is the scout for the future, it is the fringes of things.
1:06:53 > 1:06:59So while the work is LGBT work or LGBT themed work for the most part,
1:06:59 > 1:07:03it is also about not doing the obvious.
1:07:03 > 1:07:06I think that's why we love the word queer.
1:07:06 > 1:07:08It is about developing local work
1:07:08 > 1:07:11but also developing work with people from other parts of the world.
1:07:11 > 1:07:12But provoking, as well.
1:07:12 > 1:07:16- Absolutely.- You must have known what you were doing,
1:07:16 > 1:07:19starting up a festival like yours in Northern Ireland?
1:07:19 > 1:07:22Absolutely, and I think that's why it's vital here.
1:07:22 > 1:07:25Socially, things aren't probably the way they are in
1:07:25 > 1:07:26a lot of bigger cosmopolitan cities.
1:07:26 > 1:07:29You've got kind of raw material to play with,
1:07:29 > 1:07:31something that is not set in stone.
1:07:31 > 1:07:34And to me, that's what queer is, queer is always about the fringes.
1:07:34 > 1:07:36So, the likes of John Waters coming over,
1:07:36 > 1:07:40his only European appearance this year will be here in Belfast.
1:07:40 > 1:07:41Yes, at the Outburst Festival.
1:07:41 > 1:07:44I mean, if you are looking at somebody to embody
1:07:44 > 1:07:47what queer culture is about, look no further than John Waters.
1:07:47 > 1:07:51We sent one of his biggest fans to Baltimore to meet him.
1:07:51 > 1:07:53Joe Lindsay.
1:08:01 > 1:08:04Nowadays, Baltimore may be most famous as the backdrop
1:08:04 > 1:08:06for the iconic series The Wire,
1:08:06 > 1:08:09but before then, in more shocking and stranger ways,
1:08:09 > 1:08:11it was the setting for the films
1:08:11 > 1:08:13of the Pope of Trash himself, John Waters.
1:08:13 > 1:08:16He filmed in his local community with local actors,
1:08:16 > 1:08:19and he is coming to the Outburst Festival to tell us all about it.
1:08:24 > 1:08:27Yes, folks, this isn't any cheap,
1:08:27 > 1:08:29X-rated movie or any fifth-rate porno play.
1:08:29 > 1:08:30This is the show you want.
1:08:31 > 1:08:34Lady Divine's Cavalcade Of Perversion.
1:08:34 > 1:08:38The sleaziest show on earth.
1:08:38 > 1:08:42Not actors, not paid impostors, but real, actual filth.
1:08:42 > 1:08:43John, we meet you
1:08:43 > 1:08:46as you are about to come to the Outburst Festival in Belfast.
1:08:46 > 1:08:49- Have you been to Belfast before? - I've never been to Belfast.
1:08:49 > 1:08:51So I'd love to go to a city I've never been to.
1:08:51 > 1:08:53I've been to Ireland, but I've never been to Belfast.
1:08:53 > 1:08:54So I'm looking forward to it.
1:08:54 > 1:08:56You're very aware of the Outburst Festival?
1:08:56 > 1:08:58I know about it, I've read about it.
1:08:58 > 1:09:01- The ten year anniversary, which is good.- That's right.
1:09:01 > 1:09:02And I think it sounds perfect.
1:09:02 > 1:09:05You made some of the most significant films
1:09:05 > 1:09:06of the '60s, '70s and '80s.
1:09:08 > 1:09:10I want to ask you about Hairspray.
1:09:10 > 1:09:13- Yes?- It seemed to have just changed everything.
1:09:13 > 1:09:16I mean, all of a sudden, Hairspray was a Broadway musical,
1:09:16 > 1:09:18and a global stage musical.
1:09:18 > 1:09:20Then it was remade.
1:09:20 > 1:09:21# Come on, baby! #
1:09:21 > 1:09:24Yes, it is the gift that keeps on giving,
1:09:24 > 1:09:27and I've seen it, now, in politically correct versions,
1:09:27 > 1:09:29where a skinny black girl plays Tracy
1:09:29 > 1:09:32and it makes no sense, but I kind of like that, too.
1:09:32 > 1:09:34I think it's a Trojan horse that sneaks in.
1:09:36 > 1:09:41Anyone that would dislike me, my values, but they don't notice.
1:09:41 > 1:09:44Oh, my God! There are coloured people in my house!
1:09:44 > 1:09:46I'm going to make a citizen's arrest!
1:09:46 > 1:09:49The same values as all my other movies.
1:09:49 > 1:09:52But it sneaks in and they don't notice.
1:09:52 > 1:09:54So it's the only subversive film I ever made.
1:09:57 > 1:10:00People say, when did you come out? That seems so square.
1:10:00 > 1:10:01I'd never have a...
1:10:01 > 1:10:05That's like a Bar Mitzvah or something! To me, I just figured,
1:10:05 > 1:10:08well, every has to have figured that out. You know?
1:10:08 > 1:10:12And I was the on the cover of Gay Times in like, 1972,
1:10:12 > 1:10:13not because I was so brave,
1:10:13 > 1:10:16it was the only people that asked me to be on the cover!
1:10:16 > 1:10:18# The girl can't help it, she was born to please
1:10:18 > 1:10:20# She can't help it the girl can't help it... #
1:10:20 > 1:10:23There is a great sequence, I think, that sums up your film career
1:10:23 > 1:10:25with Divine going down the street in the cha-cha heels.
1:10:25 > 1:10:28- And you're obviously filming from a moving car.- Correct.
1:10:28 > 1:10:30And literally, everybody's head turns.
1:10:30 > 1:10:32Everyone.
1:10:32 > 1:10:35No-one just ignores, because he's dancing down the street.
1:10:35 > 1:10:37It's just absolutely incredible.
1:10:37 > 1:10:39Well, I can look at them, they don't see me, either.
1:10:39 > 1:10:40They just see Divine.
1:10:40 > 1:10:42And in Female Trouble, they do it, too.
1:10:42 > 1:10:44But he has scars on his face, so they look away,
1:10:44 > 1:10:47but then they don't want to be rude because he's handicapped.
1:10:47 > 1:10:49Divine was not transgender.
1:10:49 > 1:10:51Divine did not want to be a woman, ever.
1:10:51 > 1:10:52He wanted to be a monster.
1:10:52 > 1:10:55His drag persona of Divine, which obviously you helped create,
1:10:55 > 1:10:58and you helped cultivate, was that very much emancipating for him?
1:10:58 > 1:11:01Certainly it was, because he always said he wanted to be
1:11:01 > 1:11:03a movie star, he wanted be Elizabeth Taylor.
1:11:03 > 1:11:06But that was not going to happen in Lutherville, Maryland,
1:11:06 > 1:11:07where we grew up.
1:11:07 > 1:11:11But it did happen, and, in the end, I met Elizabeth Taylor,
1:11:11 > 1:11:13she looked like Divine!
1:11:13 > 1:11:14A little.
1:11:14 > 1:11:15I don't mean that negatively.
1:11:15 > 1:11:17Like Divine looking good.
1:11:17 > 1:11:19You know. Not like Edna in Hairspray.
1:11:19 > 1:11:21Didn't look like an old housewife.
1:11:21 > 1:11:24But that's amazing, because Divine established this character
1:11:24 > 1:11:26that basically frightened people,
1:11:26 > 1:11:28but then when he did the exact opposite
1:11:28 > 1:11:30and played a frumpy mother in Hairspray,
1:11:30 > 1:11:32is when he got great reviews.
1:11:32 > 1:11:34Wilbur, it's the times.
1:11:34 > 1:11:36They are a-changing.
1:11:36 > 1:11:38Somethin's blowin' in the wind.
1:11:38 > 1:11:41He must have loved pushing that button, as well?
1:11:41 > 1:11:44He did. He was scared, he said, "Can I get away with doing this?"
1:11:44 > 1:11:46When I said, "Jump out of a car," and he was downtown
1:11:46 > 1:11:48having to walk down the street in drag, he was scared.
1:11:48 > 1:11:50It was like, we didn't have protection.
1:11:50 > 1:11:52There were no film office, we didn't have permits.
1:11:52 > 1:11:55We had been arrested for making a movie.
1:11:55 > 1:11:56It was like committing a crime.
1:11:56 > 1:11:59It wasn't like an action, a political action,
1:11:59 > 1:12:01it was like terrorism against good taste.
1:12:01 > 1:12:04And we would jump out and do it and then jump out and run.
1:12:04 > 1:12:07We didn't set off a bomb, but it was...
1:12:07 > 1:12:11it was in the spirit of that without hurting anybody.
1:12:11 > 1:12:14HE LAUGHS
1:12:16 > 1:12:19Obviously you assembled the Dreamlanders around you.
1:12:19 > 1:12:22They were the people that were in my early films since Multiple Maniacs,
1:12:22 > 1:12:24which I think is showing at this festival.
1:12:24 > 1:12:28It's a movie that I made 47 years ago that just came out again
1:12:28 > 1:12:30in America, restored and revived and repulsive!
1:12:32 > 1:12:34They were my friends.
1:12:34 > 1:12:35It's who I took LSD with
1:12:35 > 1:12:37and who we hung around with and we did have
1:12:37 > 1:12:41a definite group of people that was very mixed.
1:12:41 > 1:12:45It was suburban bad kids, that went downtown to be beatniks
1:12:45 > 1:12:47and black people and gay people
1:12:47 > 1:12:49but none of the three of those groups
1:12:49 > 1:12:51never hung around together, but we did.
1:12:51 > 1:12:54And the cops, black cops, white cops, everybody hated us.
1:12:54 > 1:12:57We were outcasts of any neighbourhood.
1:12:57 > 1:12:58We were all looking for bohemia,
1:12:58 > 1:13:01and that was I was looking for and I didn't know anything about it
1:13:01 > 1:13:03until I read about Tennessee Williams in Life magazine.
1:13:03 > 1:13:08So the most popular magazine in America corrupted me every week.
1:13:08 > 1:13:12They told me about beatniks, about junkies, drugs, pot, hippies,
1:13:12 > 1:13:16everything that they covered, I was eagerly reading about.
1:13:16 > 1:13:20- This was your handbook for life? - Yes.
1:13:20 > 1:13:21Dreamland Studios was a joke,
1:13:21 > 1:13:23because it was a bedroom at my parents' house
1:13:23 > 1:13:26when I first started making eight millimetre movies.
1:13:26 > 1:13:28This isn't one of those sick shows, is it?
1:13:28 > 1:13:29You will see, sir, you will see.
1:13:29 > 1:13:31THEY GRUNT
1:13:31 > 1:13:34My parents were horrified by the movies - but, on Multiple Maniacs,
1:13:34 > 1:13:37that's the front lawn the Cavalcade of Perversion is being shot on,
1:13:37 > 1:13:39on their front lawn!
1:13:39 > 1:13:41So they were supportive enough.
1:13:41 > 1:13:44They didn't like what I was doing but they respected my business sense
1:13:44 > 1:13:46that I could get a film made,
1:13:46 > 1:13:49that I could get it shown, I could get it advertised,
1:13:49 > 1:13:52but, "Can't you make a different kind of movie?"
1:13:52 > 1:13:53That was the problem.
1:13:53 > 1:13:56But I figured they just thought, well, what else could I have done?
1:13:56 > 1:13:58Was there ever a point you thought, "Oh, I've gone too far?"
1:13:58 > 1:14:02Well, what would have been going too far to me, I wouldn't have done.
1:14:02 > 1:14:03I make movies about the grey area,
1:14:03 > 1:14:06about how you far you can go and still be funny.
1:14:06 > 1:14:09But if it wasn't funny, I wouldn't...
1:14:09 > 1:14:13I mean, I'm not a child molester, I don't do a lot of Holocaust jokes.
1:14:13 > 1:14:15Especially not being Jewish.
1:14:15 > 1:14:17I think, if you're Jewish, you can...
1:14:17 > 1:14:21I think it all depends on where you're coming from
1:14:21 > 1:14:22to make the jokes,
1:14:22 > 1:14:25for what you can get away with.
1:14:25 > 1:14:27In this era in America of the Kardashians,
1:14:27 > 1:14:29what is bad taste any more?
1:14:29 > 1:14:30We seem to have gone right past it.
1:14:30 > 1:14:33Well, to me, I don't like reality TV
1:14:33 > 1:14:35because I think it makes the audience feel
1:14:35 > 1:14:38that they should condescend to the people in it.
1:14:38 > 1:14:42I think you're supposed to feel superior to the people in it.
1:14:42 > 1:14:45I like to watch things, even if they're very strange, about things
1:14:45 > 1:14:48I don't understand but I'm amazed at the people that are in it.
1:14:48 > 1:14:51Even if they're hideous, even if they're evil, even if they're crazy.
1:14:51 > 1:14:53Was there ever a point in your life that you thought,
1:14:53 > 1:14:57"You know what, maybe I should stop and go into something else"?
1:14:57 > 1:14:59Oh, I already have done that!
1:14:59 > 1:15:01You know, I probably will never make another movie again,
1:15:01 > 1:15:03- and I'm fine about it.- Really?
1:15:03 > 1:15:04My last two books were bestsellers,
1:15:04 > 1:15:06my last movie was a financial flop, so...
1:15:06 > 1:15:09I was going to ask, I mean, you've now got this other career
1:15:09 > 1:15:10as a writer, and your books are brilliant.
1:15:10 > 1:15:12Both the books did great.
1:15:12 > 1:15:16So, I always knew a long time ago that you never depend on one career.
1:15:16 > 1:15:18And I just like to tell stories.
1:15:18 > 1:15:22So I have a spoken word show, I have art shows, I have movies -
1:15:22 > 1:15:23I get deals still to write them.
1:15:23 > 1:15:26I write the books. Doesn't matter to me.
1:15:26 > 1:15:27I like them all equally.
1:15:27 > 1:15:29They're equally as important to me.
1:15:29 > 1:15:31- Officer!- Yes, ma'am, can I help you?
1:15:31 > 1:15:34Oh! Aaargh! Aargh!
1:15:36 > 1:15:40That was Joe in Baltimore, meeting the legend that is John Waters -
1:15:40 > 1:15:44or John Waters meeting the legend that is Joe Lindsay!
1:15:44 > 1:15:47Quality, costs - so, how do you match that?
1:15:47 > 1:15:50It's not always about financial return
1:15:50 > 1:15:53in terms of numbers of hotel rooms for the night, or whatever.
1:15:53 > 1:15:57There really doesn't seem to be an understanding in government,
1:15:57 > 1:15:59a lot of it is short-term thinking
1:15:59 > 1:16:02in terms of return for what they are putting in.
1:16:02 > 1:16:05The social impact of the arts is huge.
1:16:05 > 1:16:10We think of the arts as a business like any other - and it's not.
1:16:10 > 1:16:13It has that element and that's important and tourism is great -
1:16:13 > 1:16:16I love the idea that people want to come from somewhere else
1:16:16 > 1:16:18to see something at Outburst.
1:16:18 > 1:16:23Have funders said to you, "Great, John Waters, great,
1:16:23 > 1:16:25"I Heart Alice, whatever you programmed -
1:16:25 > 1:16:28"how many people came to see your play?"
1:16:28 > 1:16:31- Do you have to go through those kinds of nuts and bolts?- Absolutely.
1:16:31 > 1:16:36One of the things that takes up a lot of our time in festivals
1:16:36 > 1:16:40is funding reporting and saying how many bums on seats.
1:16:40 > 1:16:42And that's important for us to know.
1:16:42 > 1:16:44It's important to know for audience development,
1:16:44 > 1:16:47who is coming to our shows and who we are missing a trick with.
1:16:47 > 1:16:49And that's important for you, as well,
1:16:49 > 1:16:51when you're programming the festival?
1:16:51 > 1:16:54I mean, have you learned, in the last ten years,
1:16:54 > 1:16:58what has worked and what hasn't worked, even within your own niche?
1:16:58 > 1:17:00Absolutely.
1:17:00 > 1:17:03I mean, for every John Waters event with hundreds of people,
1:17:03 > 1:17:06there will be an event where maybe it is a very intimate event
1:17:06 > 1:17:07with 50 people -
1:17:07 > 1:17:10but those 50 people could be impacted hugely
1:17:10 > 1:17:13because of a very intimate experience that they have.
1:17:13 > 1:17:17I think that's a crucial point, that the arts don't exist
1:17:17 > 1:17:19hermetically sealed off from the rest of society.
1:17:19 > 1:17:23It plays a crucial role in the health and education of society.
1:17:23 > 1:17:25But we hear that all the time, and people will say,
1:17:25 > 1:17:27well, we still need hospital beds and we still need...
1:17:27 > 1:17:31I know, but nobody is actually saying some child with meningitis
1:17:31 > 1:17:33cannot get their medication
1:17:33 > 1:17:36because Sinead Morrissey needs to write a poem.
1:17:36 > 1:17:39That kind of logic is a little bit ridiculous
1:17:39 > 1:17:40when you look at the arts budget.
1:17:40 > 1:17:43Within the context of things, it's minuscule,
1:17:43 > 1:17:45but it makes such a huge return to society.
1:17:45 > 1:17:48It wouldn't even run the health service for a single day.
1:17:48 > 1:17:50And yet some of those cuts, proportionately-speaking,
1:17:50 > 1:17:53in relation to the art scene, is affected quite direly.
1:17:53 > 1:17:57And the money that's already spent in the arts scene here,
1:17:57 > 1:17:59it's the smallest dividend of all.
1:17:59 > 1:18:01We're sitting here, talking about festivals.
1:18:01 > 1:18:05Why not scrap festivals completely and fund the artists?
1:18:05 > 1:18:07That's another one of those arguments.
1:18:07 > 1:18:08It's not an either/or
1:18:08 > 1:18:10instead of both and both.
1:18:10 > 1:18:13As much as the artists are at the core of everything,
1:18:13 > 1:18:16the vast majority of artists that I've have worked with in the past
1:18:16 > 1:18:17are not skilled businesspeople.
1:18:17 > 1:18:20They have no idea how to market their work,
1:18:20 > 1:18:23so really good producers, really good programmers,
1:18:23 > 1:18:26really good curators are as important, actually,
1:18:26 > 1:18:30in order to create the right platform, draw audiences,
1:18:30 > 1:18:31do all the research,
1:18:31 > 1:18:34do the report-backs for the funding, all of the rest.
1:18:34 > 1:18:38These two things are interdependent and it's not a kind of either/or.
1:18:47 > 1:18:49And Then The Sun.
1:18:49 > 1:18:52And then the sun came slicing sideways
1:18:52 > 1:18:56Clearwater reflecting it, giving it slant
1:18:56 > 1:19:00A gloss of rain, so quick and light that day, hardly made a sound
1:19:00 > 1:19:03The thought of sheets hung out and drying on the line,
1:19:03 > 1:19:07of seeds in soil and soil itself
1:19:07 > 1:19:10The glutting ends of stems of leaves that will them to let fall
1:19:10 > 1:19:13up and out and through the trees
1:19:13 > 1:19:18The shape that shoots could take, of you and this moment as it happens
1:19:18 > 1:19:21Our echoing hush as we try to hold the close music
1:19:21 > 1:19:22of the blackbird in the bush.
1:19:24 > 1:19:26And then the sun continued on,
1:19:26 > 1:19:29Lough Neagh cooled under the firm keels of fishing boats
1:19:29 > 1:19:31on the water's taut skin,
1:19:31 > 1:19:35their painted hulls in pointed arcs an emblem of balance
1:19:35 > 1:19:38so finely wrought that they could tell the weight of light or air
1:19:40 > 1:19:44Each night, we walk along the shore, expecting still to find
1:19:44 > 1:19:46your sturdy figure waist-deep in waders,
1:19:46 > 1:19:49plumbing darkness, hauling it in,
1:19:49 > 1:19:52but never again your grip on the reel
1:19:52 > 1:19:56and never again the music of the blackbird nesting in your hand.
1:20:05 > 1:20:07And that's it from The Arts Show.
1:20:07 > 1:20:10You can keep up-to-date online and on radio.
1:20:10 > 1:20:11Bye-bye.
1:20:11 > 1:20:15And The Arts Show is on BBC Radio Ulster and BBC Radio Foyle
1:20:15 > 1:20:18Tuesdays to Fridays at 6:30.
1:20:18 > 1:20:20And find us online and on social media.