0:00:31 > 0:00:34Neil Jordan has been a multi-award-winning
0:00:34 > 0:00:37screenwriter and director since 1982
0:00:37 > 0:00:41with films such as The Butcher Boy, The Crying Game,
0:00:41 > 0:00:46Interview With The Vampire and the new TV series, Riviera, to his name.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50However, he started life as an acclaimed novelist
0:00:50 > 0:00:52with dreams of the big screen.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54If you think back to the '70s,
0:00:54 > 0:00:57I mean, Irish people didn't make movies, you know? They just didn't.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59There was no Irish cinema.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01His eighth novel, Carnivalesque,
0:01:01 > 0:01:04explores the fantasy world of a changeling, set against
0:01:04 > 0:01:08a race of nonhumans who hide in plain sight at a carnival.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12The Arts Show met him to discuss his writing and screen careers.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16Neil Jordan, you are very welcome to the Arts Show.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Thank you. Thank you very much.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22We're here not just to talk about the body of film work.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24I haven't been able to make movies for a while
0:01:24 > 0:01:26cos I had an accident, you know?
0:01:26 > 0:01:28So for four years, I could only write,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30so I wrote two novels.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33I had a sports injury, I had ACL surgery
0:01:33 > 0:01:35and I was crossing a road with...
0:01:35 > 0:01:37with the help of a crutch, you know?
0:01:37 > 0:01:40And I was crossing at a green light,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43and this bus drove at me.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46It literally stopped you in your tracks, you were in a wheelchair.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Yeah, I severed all my tendons in my knee and I couldn't walk
0:01:48 > 0:01:50and I was in a wheelchair for about three, four months.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54I was on various forms of crutches for another year and a bit.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57So I couldn't travel and I couldn't take a plane
0:01:57 > 0:01:59and I couldn't do anything that was...you know,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02involved the physical involvement of film-making, you know?
0:02:02 > 0:02:05So I had to stop really. I had to cancel a few movie projects.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08I began... I said, the only thing I can do is write, you know?
0:02:08 > 0:02:10So I wrote one novel
0:02:10 > 0:02:12called The Drowned Detective.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15- And then I started writing this. - Carnivalesque.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17Where did that idea come from?
0:02:17 > 0:02:20I've always wanted to write a piece of total fantasy, you know?
0:02:20 > 0:02:25Set in, you know, in an Irish context and in the context of the...
0:02:25 > 0:02:28the spooky stories my father used to tell me.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I would have loved to do something on a changeling legend,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33do you know what I mean? I... For some reason, I thought
0:02:33 > 0:02:36I'd love to get involved in that in some way.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39And normally the changeling is, you know, a woman walks back
0:02:39 > 0:02:41to her household and she sees instead of her child there
0:02:41 > 0:02:44it's some ugly little thing, you know?
0:02:44 > 0:02:49So I thought of the story of another child inhabiting a house that seemed
0:02:49 > 0:02:53like the parents' real child but actually was totally different.
0:02:53 > 0:02:58A carnival, or a circus that had...
0:02:58 > 0:03:01supernatural abilities, yeah?
0:03:01 > 0:03:03So they had to hide their physical kind of talents.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07They had to hide the fact that they didn't have to obey physical laws,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10you know? So, I just began to write the story and the two ideas blended
0:03:10 > 0:03:12- into one, really. - And where did that come from?
0:03:12 > 0:03:15- Were you...- The writing business? The writing, was at home?
0:03:15 > 0:03:16Was there books around the house?
0:03:16 > 0:03:19All those books. It came, like most things,
0:03:19 > 0:03:20out of pure desperation, really.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24You know what I mean? You know, I grew up in this rather bookish...
0:03:24 > 0:03:27My father's a teacher, my mother's a painter, you know,
0:03:27 > 0:03:30so it was your conventional middle-class existence, really,
0:03:30 > 0:03:33you know? I used to read everything.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35I used to read to escape, really,
0:03:35 > 0:03:39from the brutality of other children, you know?
0:03:39 > 0:03:41What, were you picked upon?
0:03:41 > 0:03:45No, not really. But I used to like living in my imagination, really.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49You know, the current mode in fiction is very realistic, I think.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51And it seems to me...
0:03:51 > 0:03:55What attracted me to Irish literature initially
0:03:55 > 0:03:57when I began to read it was the fantastic - kind of thing
0:03:57 > 0:04:01you find in Flann O'Brien or the kind of thing you find
0:04:01 > 0:04:03in even in the early Yeats, you know?
0:04:03 > 0:04:06And it is that very sense of the fantastic that has been
0:04:06 > 0:04:10a hallmark of Neil Jordan's work in both film and fiction.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14This is something that has filtered throughout all your work.
0:04:14 > 0:04:15Yeah, it has absolutely.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18Maybe that's why cinema suits me, in a way, you know,
0:04:18 > 0:04:24because it's like... you know, it's kind of creating images
0:04:24 > 0:04:27that you can see when you dream, when you close your eyes and
0:04:27 > 0:04:30stuff like that, you know? I never thought I would get to make films,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33you know what I mean? Because I was born in 1950 and...
0:04:33 > 0:04:37I did apply to the National Film School in England
0:04:37 > 0:04:40when I was about 22.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42And I actually got a place, yeah?
0:04:42 > 0:04:44But I couldn't afford to go, do know what I mean?
0:04:44 > 0:04:47So I thought that when I was starting to write,
0:04:47 > 0:04:49I didn't think that was an option that was open
0:04:49 > 0:04:53to somebody like me, you know? And it was only when I started to write
0:04:53 > 0:04:56movies and when I met John Boorman actually
0:04:56 > 0:04:59and began to work with him on Excalibur
0:04:59 > 0:05:03and then another script or two that we wrote together, that
0:05:03 > 0:05:06I began to see that it's possible for someone like me to perhaps
0:05:06 > 0:05:09- do this kind of thing, you know? - Why do you say "somebody like me"?
0:05:09 > 0:05:12- Why are you boxing yourself up? - Well, I mean if you think back
0:05:12 > 0:05:15to the '70s, I mean Irish people didn't make movies, you know?
0:05:15 > 0:05:18They just didn't. There was no Irish cinema.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21Having written a collection of short stories and winning
0:05:21 > 0:05:24the Guardian Fiction Prize, Jordan came to the attention
0:05:24 > 0:05:27of the eminent film director John Boorman.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31He seemed to have gone as far as he could go in a certain direction.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33It was a very intense, very...
0:05:34 > 0:05:36..a very detailed, very...
0:05:37 > 0:05:40..navel-contemplating kind of book,
0:05:40 > 0:05:43extremely brilliant.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46But I think he'd written himself into a corner.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49And I think film-making was an escape from
0:05:49 > 0:05:51that corner, really, for him.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53OK.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Did you feel that you were languishing, What were you able to do then?
0:05:56 > 0:05:59I'd written a collection of short stories, Night In Tunisia,
0:05:59 > 0:06:01and they were all very internal and very personal.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04And from this, he began to write what was to become
0:06:04 > 0:06:08his first screenplay that made it to the screen, Traveller.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10It was directed by Joe Comerford, you know?
0:06:10 > 0:06:13I saw a wedding in St Stephen's Green of two traveller kids
0:06:13 > 0:06:16and they seemed so young. And I began to write the script.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18I could see it very clearly and I began to write
0:06:18 > 0:06:21kind of dramatic things that I never would have written
0:06:21 > 0:06:23in a piece of fiction, you know what I mean - car crashes
0:06:23 > 0:06:25and murders and this and that...
0:06:25 > 0:06:27Melodramatic elements.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29And I thought, this is really lovely.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32This is a wonderful thing, but I would never have written this
0:06:32 > 0:06:34in a novel. You know, and then it was made into a movie,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37and it was so different from what I'd written that I thought
0:06:37 > 0:06:39if I ever want to do this again, I'd better learn how to direct.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Determined to realise his own vision,
0:06:45 > 0:06:48Jordan began working on his next project.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51I wrote the script for Angel and...
0:06:51 > 0:06:54various people were interested in it. Channel 4 were really
0:06:54 > 0:06:58interested in it, they read it, and David Rose had wanted to read it,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01and I asked John Boorman would he produce it?
0:07:01 > 0:07:03And he very kindly said he would.
0:07:03 > 0:07:09So that gave Channel 4 the kind of reassurance that I could direct.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12- Yeah.- Well, I'd never directed a thing.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14Cos they didn't know you from Adam.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16Nobody knew me from Adam. Nobody knew me.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18But for some reason, they let me direct that movie.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22And...it was a kind of a terrifying experience.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26But I had a great cameraman, Chris Menges, and...
0:07:26 > 0:07:28I hadn't got a clue about... how cameras worked
0:07:28 > 0:07:31or anything like that, you know what I mean,
0:07:31 > 0:07:34but I had a very clear vision in my mind about
0:07:34 > 0:07:36what I wanted to see, you know? So...
0:07:36 > 0:07:40I could see the colours and I could see the...
0:07:40 > 0:07:43I suppose more than anything I had a very clear vision
0:07:43 > 0:07:46of what I didn't want it to be.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48You know, that kind of thing? Because...
0:07:48 > 0:07:50At the time, you know, it was set...
0:07:50 > 0:07:53We were in the border areas and it was like...
0:07:53 > 0:07:57There was a lot of kind of, what you could call
0:07:57 > 0:08:00politically-engaged film-making, you know,
0:08:00 > 0:08:03that we're blaming British imperialism and that...
0:08:03 > 0:08:06And I just wanted to present this...
0:08:06 > 0:08:10These series of murders and killings and the attraction of...
0:08:10 > 0:08:14the horrible attraction of that kind of thing in the barest,
0:08:14 > 0:08:17without any explanations whatsoever, you know?
0:08:17 > 0:08:21So, you know, I made this rather strange and spare movie
0:08:21 > 0:08:23and people liked it, you know, and it got
0:08:23 > 0:08:25quite a bit of acclaim.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27Who the fuck is she?
0:08:31 > 0:08:33It doesn't matter who she is.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36John.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Why didn't you stay?!
0:08:52 > 0:08:55Come on, come on! I'll help you!
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Was it the first time that you'd worked with Stephen Rea?
0:08:59 > 0:09:01Yeah, it was, yeah.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04I'd seen Stephen in The Abbey in a play
0:09:04 > 0:09:06that was actually directed by Jim Sheridan,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09called The Blue Macushla, written by Tom Murphy, and he was
0:09:09 > 0:09:12really cool, and I thought, "This guy's good," you know.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14So when I did Angel, I asked him to act in it,
0:09:14 > 0:09:18and, you know, we developed a relationship out there.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20I'll teach you to sing.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24I mean, directors kind of latch on to actors that become their voices.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26If you find that
0:09:26 > 0:09:31expressive face that you can write for and that voice
0:09:31 > 0:09:33and that kind of thing, it's, you know,
0:09:33 > 0:09:35you'd be really foolish to ignore it, you know.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39And I've been lucky to have that kind of relationship with Stephen.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41He didn't direct me as,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44in an ordinary way through characterisation,
0:09:44 > 0:09:47which I found wonderful. He just would say things.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50"Why don't you look at the shoe longer?"
0:09:50 > 0:09:53"Don't look up until you say that line."
0:09:53 > 0:09:56And I loved being directed that way.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58It was so un-intellectual.
0:09:58 > 0:10:03And it gave extraordinary clarity to the work that you were doing.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07He did Angel, we did, he'd had a small part in The Company Of Wolves.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12My dear?
0:10:14 > 0:10:16I must just go out into
0:10:16 > 0:10:18the yard for a moment.
0:10:19 > 0:10:20Whyever for?
0:10:22 > 0:10:24A call of nature.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30In Angel, we were trying to get a very,
0:10:30 > 0:10:33we were trying to get a very almost fairytale-like feel to a story
0:10:33 > 0:10:36of extreme violence, and we went to a lot of lengths
0:10:36 > 0:10:39in terms of costume and dressing and lighting to do that.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42And it was really trying to treat location as if it was a set,
0:10:42 > 0:10:45do you know? So I feel, now that I've got into it to a large stage,
0:10:45 > 0:10:47I feel very much at home here.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49Mike? Could you set, could you set one of the ones
0:10:49 > 0:10:52that are already up there on the bridge beside the boy?
0:10:52 > 0:10:54On the bridge, on the stonework.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57Brian, that's gone out.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59- More smoke, fog round here. - Which one?
0:10:59 > 0:11:02You're hard to pinpoint. If you wanted to say...
0:11:02 > 0:11:05People will say you're an Irish film-maker,
0:11:05 > 0:11:07I think of you as a universal storyteller.
0:11:07 > 0:11:11- OK.- But Mona Lisa does strike me as a very British film.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14- Totally British, yeah. - So that's, again,
0:11:14 > 0:11:17you're always bucking the trend of what people expect.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19No, but Mona Lisa, I mean...
0:11:19 > 0:11:26Angel was made out of the re-emerging British cinema, really.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29It's as much a British film as an Irish film.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31Company Of Wolves is totally a British film.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35You know, totally. Mona Lisa was totally a British film, yeah, yeah.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38I mean, it's not a "British film", it's a film about a man
0:11:38 > 0:11:40who doesn't understand himself, isn't it, really?
0:11:40 > 0:11:45You know, in a city that has changed. You know? And...
0:11:45 > 0:11:49I always felt people have never photographed London correctly.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52There was a movie made by Jules Dassin, I think,
0:11:52 > 0:11:55called Night And The City. Have you ever seen that?
0:11:55 > 0:11:59Oh. It's one of the few films that seems to capture
0:11:59 > 0:12:02anything other than a kitchen sink view of London, you know?
0:12:02 > 0:12:05And so when I came to make Mona Lisa, I thought, OK,
0:12:05 > 0:12:09I really have to plan a way to make the city sing, in a way.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11You know? So, it's a... I mean,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13it's a foreigner's view of London.
0:12:13 > 0:12:14You know? I mean, Mona Lisa is
0:12:14 > 0:12:16a noir-ish movie, isn't it?
0:12:16 > 0:12:19I had to work quite hard to make London a noir-ish place.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Yeah. And these characters, that you are drawn towards,
0:12:23 > 0:12:26and they are flawed, they have...
0:12:27 > 0:12:29..huge hearts.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32But there's also an undercurrent
0:12:32 > 0:12:35of something more than slightly disturbing.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38I think I make movies that tell stories about people
0:12:38 > 0:12:41who don't understand each other. Don't understand themselves.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45You know? Mona Lisa is a story about a guy who...
0:12:46 > 0:12:50..thinks a woman is one thing, and finds out she's totally different.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Do you know what I mean? And I think most of the things I do
0:12:53 > 0:12:57are about people who don't fully understand the world.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01You know? Or who want rational explanations for the world
0:13:01 > 0:13:03and the world refuses to give them to them.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06- Why am I doing this? - Because I asked you.- No, no, no.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09Because you like me! You fancy me!
0:13:09 > 0:13:12- But having me is nothing, George. Any prick can have me!- Oh, shut up!
0:13:12 > 0:13:15I'm screwed by old men so fat I have to lift myself onto them.
0:13:18 > 0:13:19Don't hit me, George!
0:13:19 > 0:13:23Nobody hits me! They can have me but they can't hit me!
0:13:23 > 0:13:27That fucker did, every day, every hour of every day.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30Whenever he had a spare minute.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35I'm sorry.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39You don't understand, do you?
0:13:39 > 0:13:42No, I don't understand.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45What don't I understand?
0:13:50 > 0:13:53Jordan delved deeper into the theme of people
0:13:53 > 0:13:56not understanding themselves or the world
0:13:56 > 0:13:59in what was to become one of his best known films.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03When I came to do The Crying Game, you know, I was writing it
0:14:03 > 0:14:06and I was saying, OK, this is really...
0:14:06 > 0:14:09this is really chancy what I'm doing here.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12You know? This character, the whole gender thing of it
0:14:12 > 0:14:16and all that, you know? And I said to Stephen, "Look,
0:14:16 > 0:14:19"I'm writing this movie, you know, a character there called Fergus
0:14:19 > 0:14:23"who kidnaps a black British soldier and it confronts
0:14:23 > 0:14:25"all this race, racial issues,
0:14:25 > 0:14:28"and then he goes to track down his wife in London and finds out
0:14:28 > 0:14:30"that actually, it's a man." "You know," I said to Stephen,
0:14:30 > 0:14:33"this is going to be a real complicated journey," and it's like
0:14:33 > 0:14:37the minute I mentioned it to him, he was interested, you know, so,
0:14:37 > 0:14:39you know, I showed him the early scripts and he said,
0:14:39 > 0:14:41look, we have to do this together.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43I want to show you something.
0:14:43 > 0:14:44What?
0:14:44 > 0:14:46My inside pocket.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59Take out my wallet.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07Open it.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Inside, there's a picture.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16No, not that one. There's another.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Now she's my type.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28- She'd be anybody's type. - Don't you think of it, fucker.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30- Why not?- She's mine.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Anyway, she wouldn't suit you.
0:15:33 > 0:15:34No?
0:15:34 > 0:15:36Absolutely not.
0:15:37 > 0:15:41Through the times I've been making movies, from the early '80s to...
0:15:41 > 0:15:45to 1996, when I made Michael Collins,
0:15:45 > 0:15:47you know, the position,
0:15:47 > 0:15:51the fact of horrific violence in political life was there, wasn't it?
0:15:51 > 0:15:54You know? And it would have been odd for me not to address it
0:15:54 > 0:15:56in some way, I think, you know?
0:15:56 > 0:15:58Were people saying to you, what are you doing addressing it?
0:15:58 > 0:16:01Yeah, a lot of people used to say that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03You respond with your soul, in a way, I suppose,
0:16:03 > 0:16:06and you don't know what you're responding to, often, you know?
0:16:06 > 0:16:08In a way, when I was making The Crying Game, I was asking myself,
0:16:08 > 0:16:10well, can somebody like this change, you know?
0:16:10 > 0:16:12Like the central character, can they change,
0:16:12 > 0:16:15and I think that's what the movie was about, really, wasn't it?
0:16:15 > 0:16:19Can people change? Can people change their sense of identity, you know,
0:16:19 > 0:16:21and recognise that the idea of identity
0:16:21 > 0:16:24is much more complicated than you think?
0:16:27 > 0:16:33# I know all there is to know about the crying game... #
0:16:35 > 0:16:38- It's recently celebrated its 25th year.- Yeah.
0:16:38 > 0:16:43The BFI brought out a beautifully restored version of it, actually.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45I was so grateful for that, they did it,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48I didn't even know they were doing it, you know?
0:16:48 > 0:16:50And they showed it in,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54on the, you know, the National Film Theatre in London.
0:16:54 > 0:16:58And they had a screening, it was beautiful and the cast came,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01you know - Stephen, Jaye Davidson, Miranda Richardson.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04When that movie came out in England,
0:17:04 > 0:17:07there was quite a lot of antipathy towards it, you know?
0:17:07 > 0:17:10And I don't know why, really.
0:17:10 > 0:17:16I think again because it didn't address the political questions
0:17:16 > 0:17:18in quite a conventional way, you know?
0:17:18 > 0:17:21And I think journalism hates that in a strange way, you know,
0:17:21 > 0:17:24and a lot of British journalists were very sniffy about it.
0:17:24 > 0:17:25And then it was released in America,
0:17:25 > 0:17:28and it kind of became a phenomenon of kinds, you know?
0:17:28 > 0:17:30And then they re-released it in England, and it became a big hit.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33- You know, so...- And then it was Oscar-nominated as well.
0:17:33 > 0:17:34It was, yeah, quite a few Oscars.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36It was a nice evening all in all.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39It's stood the test of time, except there's far more
0:17:39 > 0:17:43- awareness now of gender issues and transgender stuff.- Yes.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45Now, the film is not about a transgender individual,
0:17:45 > 0:17:48but there are a lot of transgender people in the movie, you know?
0:17:48 > 0:17:50And when I watch the movie now,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52the minute he walks into that hairdressers, and sees
0:17:52 > 0:17:57Jaye Davidson, I go, how did we get away with that, how do people...
0:17:57 > 0:18:00- But you know, maybe... - Was there an innocence?
0:18:00 > 0:18:03No, but I think the film works even if you do know that she's a guy.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06You know? It works in a different way, you know?
0:18:06 > 0:18:09I don't think it depends on it being a film with a secret,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12which is the way it was
0:18:12 > 0:18:14marketed in America.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18- You could always make it up to her? - How?
0:18:19 > 0:18:23When a girl runs out like that, she generally wants to be followed.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25She's not a girl, Col.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27Whatever you say.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40With the film world at his feet after five Oscar nominations
0:18:40 > 0:18:44and one win, Jordan received a fascinating proposal.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47David Geffen sent me Interview With The Vampire,
0:18:47 > 0:18:49Anne Rice had written a script, and I read the novel.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52I was really intrigued by the novel, I have to say, that, you know,
0:18:52 > 0:18:57that sense of Catholic guilt and the mixture of historicism
0:18:57 > 0:19:00and fantasy and all that. So it was a big huge thing,
0:19:00 > 0:19:02what, 70 million movie?
0:19:02 > 0:19:05But we were allowed to make it
0:19:05 > 0:19:06almost like an independent film.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09There was no interference whatsoever, you know?
0:19:09 > 0:19:10It was extraordinary.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12Particularly with the stars that they're giving you.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15- Yeah, I know, I know. - They're handing you Tom Cruise,
0:19:15 > 0:19:17or are they handing you Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt,
0:19:17 > 0:19:18or are you still having to say,
0:19:18 > 0:19:20look, I want them to audition for these roles.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24Oh, no, oh, you don't ask Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt to audition for roles,
0:19:24 > 0:19:27no, you don't. Maybe if you're Stanley Kubrick, you do.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29Or you did. But no, no, no, no, no.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32No, Tom expressed interest in the role, I went out to meet him.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35I mean, Brad was attached.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39At the time they wanted Daniel Day-Lewis to play Tom Cruise's role.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44And I said, "Look, there's no way Mr Lewis, Daniel's going to play this
0:19:44 > 0:19:47"role, cos he would never survive six months in a coffin, anyway."
0:19:47 > 0:19:50- Cos that's what he does, you know. - Method acting.- Mm.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52But I went to meet Tom,
0:19:52 > 0:19:55and I thought he's got a really interesting character for this.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57He's got a really interesting quality, you know?
0:19:57 > 0:20:01And the description, the kind of character description
0:20:01 > 0:20:03that Anne Rice had given of Lestat
0:20:03 > 0:20:06was almost like a description of a star.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09You know, who is at a certain remove from life,
0:20:09 > 0:20:12and stuff like that. And I just thought Tom... He's...
0:20:12 > 0:20:14I've always liked him as an actor, you know.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17And I thought he'd be great, you know?
0:20:17 > 0:20:18Pain is terrible for you.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23You feel it like no other creature because you are a vampire.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27You don't want it to go on.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29No.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34Then do what it is in your nature to do...
0:20:35 > 0:20:38..and you will feel as you felt with that child in your arms.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42Evil is a point of view.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45God kills indiscriminately...
0:20:46 > 0:20:48..and so shall we.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51For no creatures under God are as we are.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55None so like him as ourselves.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58So, it was an interesting experience, you know,
0:20:58 > 0:21:01but it's not always like that making Hollywood movies, you know.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04But your focus is independent...
0:21:04 > 0:21:05- Independent films?- Not really, no.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08I'd happily make a Hollywood movie if they want me to,
0:21:08 > 0:21:10but they often don't, you know.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14But because they don't want to or do you feel that they're going to interfere too much?
0:21:14 > 0:21:17Well, I mean, the kind of movies they make now, like...
0:21:17 > 0:21:20You know, what? They're going to get me to make like...
0:21:20 > 0:21:23What is it? Captain America 4, or something?
0:21:23 > 0:21:26No. It wouldn't work that way. The entire of Hollywood now is...
0:21:26 > 0:21:29kind of seems to be owned by Marvel comics.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31You know what I mean? You know, I don't think...
0:21:31 > 0:21:33They want younger directors to do those because I think they want
0:21:33 > 0:21:35younger directors who they can...
0:21:35 > 0:21:39I think those films are made by committee in a strange way, you know.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41And did you ever come up against that in the early days,
0:21:41 > 0:21:45or were you really being allowed to make the kind of movies you wanted?
0:21:45 > 0:21:48I never came up against it as often as I have lately.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50As you do now, yeah.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52So, I think the industry has changed.
0:21:52 > 0:21:53If you think to 19...
0:21:53 > 0:21:55Say 1980, yeah? I mean, what?
0:21:55 > 0:21:59They used to make maybe 100 movies a year in Hollywood.
0:21:59 > 0:22:00Now, they make 25.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05With Interview With The Vampire nominated for two Oscars,
0:22:05 > 0:22:09Jordan used his success to realise a film that was closer to home.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13David Putnam commissioned me to write a script.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16He had an agreement with Warner Brothers and he asked me.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18It was actually after I'd done Angel, actually.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21He said, "Look, have you ever heard of Michael Collins?"
0:22:21 > 0:22:24I said, "No, I haven't, really." And I began to read these books.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26Of course I'd heard about it, but I didn't know.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28I began to read these books so I thought,
0:22:28 > 0:22:30this is like a quasi-fascist guy, you know?
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Cos at the time they were all hagiographical, and stuff.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36You know like, there's the book written by Piaras Beaslai.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38And they always showed him in uniform, like...
0:22:38 > 0:22:40He seemed like Mussolini, or something.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43Well, I began to explore it, and I wrote a script
0:22:43 > 0:22:46and David read it, and uh...
0:22:46 > 0:22:48Then he...
0:22:48 > 0:22:51I don't know, they decided not to do it.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53And it was hanging around Warner Brothers. And after I made
0:22:53 > 0:22:56Interview With The Vampire, they said, "What do you want to do next?"
0:22:56 > 0:22:58And I said, "Well, you have this script of mine."
0:22:58 > 0:23:02- And they said, "Oh, OK."- And did you always have Liam attached to it?
0:23:02 > 0:23:05When I began to write it years ago, I said to Liam, look...
0:23:05 > 0:23:09Because I'd seen, I'd seen Liam in The Gate.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13Then to see him on stage, it was quite an extraordinary,
0:23:13 > 0:23:16he had an extraordinary presence and...
0:23:16 > 0:23:18I mean, he wasn't just physically big.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20I mean, he was, he was very alive.
0:23:20 > 0:23:21Just the naturalness, the naturalness,
0:23:21 > 0:23:23and the lack of...
0:23:23 > 0:23:25The way of just being utterly...
0:23:25 > 0:23:27Somehow didn't have any regard for
0:23:27 > 0:23:28the fact that there was an audience
0:23:28 > 0:23:31there or something. I don't know, I just remembered and I said,
0:23:31 > 0:23:33"Look, I'm writing this, if I ever get to do it, let's...
0:23:33 > 0:23:35"Would you like to play this role?"
0:23:35 > 0:23:37He said, "Yes, I would, I'd love to."
0:23:37 > 0:23:39You know, so by the time I got to make it we were...
0:23:39 > 0:23:42It was about 15 years later.
0:23:42 > 0:23:43Well?
0:23:43 > 0:23:44He says he'll meet you tomorrow.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47What's wrong with now?
0:23:47 > 0:23:49His nerves are at him.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53Beal Na Blath. There's farmhouse to the left to the Bandon side.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56Around 12.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58Hey, kid.
0:23:59 > 0:24:00What's your name?
0:24:05 > 0:24:06Little snot.
0:24:11 > 0:24:14Jordan continued making films such as Breakfast On Pluto
0:24:14 > 0:24:18and The Brave One, before trying something new - television,
0:24:18 > 0:24:22with Dreamworks asking him to look at the Borgias.
0:24:22 > 0:24:27I wrote the script of The Borgias, and I found it fascinating,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30cos, you know, I'm from an Irish Catholic background.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34And you know, the kind of nasty cardinals in red.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36- It was shocking what they got up to. - Yeah, I know.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39But also the whole entire history of the Catholic Church,
0:24:39 > 0:24:42and St Peter and good and evil and all that sort of stuff...
0:24:42 > 0:24:45So, I wrote this script and I sent it to Dreamworks,
0:24:45 > 0:24:48and, uh, the head of production said,
0:24:48 > 0:24:51"The two words I have with this script is interesting vermin."
0:24:51 > 0:24:54I said "Oh, OK." I said, "Does that mean you don't want to do it?"
0:24:54 > 0:24:56He said, "Yeah, we're not going to do it."
0:24:56 > 0:24:59So, anyway I tried to make it independently and I couldn't.
0:24:59 > 0:25:01And then,
0:25:01 > 0:25:03a few years later I asked,
0:25:03 > 0:25:07I sent, I got my agent to ask Steven Spielberg, you know,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09"Is there any way they'd reconsider this project?"
0:25:09 > 0:25:13And he said, "Why don't you do it as a TV series, you know?"
0:25:13 > 0:25:15And I said, "Oh, I never even thought of that."
0:25:15 > 0:25:19And I began to look into it, you know, and I began to say,
0:25:19 > 0:25:23OK, so, the main trouble I had in writing this script
0:25:23 > 0:25:26was reducing all of the history into, you know, 120 pages.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28And if I begin to expand it,
0:25:28 > 0:25:32there's so much material there. So, I just started doing it, and...
0:25:32 > 0:25:35- Was that a liberation? - It was kind of a liberation,
0:25:35 > 0:25:39but it was also a confinement because the visual possibilities
0:25:39 > 0:25:42of the entire thing became shrunk, you know.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Whereas the story expanded in terms of narrative, in terms of character,
0:25:46 > 0:25:48in terms of events you could depict.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51But in terms of the image,
0:25:51 > 0:25:52it kind of...
0:25:52 > 0:25:53We weren't in Rome,
0:25:53 > 0:25:55we were in Budapest, you know?
0:26:08 > 0:26:09- Were you surprised...- At what?
0:26:09 > 0:26:12At the strength of its success?
0:26:12 > 0:26:13Yeah, I was amazed!
0:26:13 > 0:26:16I couldn't believe how many people watch this stuff.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18There was like entire, you know,
0:26:18 > 0:26:20internet sites devoted to it and there was, like...
0:26:20 > 0:26:24And there was huge phalanxes of people, you know,
0:26:24 > 0:26:26devoted to Cesare and Lucrezia,
0:26:26 > 0:26:30and would they kiss each other, or would they ever "do it"
0:26:30 > 0:26:32and da-da-da-da and all this sort of stuff.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34And it was the most extraordinary experience.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37I never knew that stuff existed, you know?
0:26:37 > 0:26:41And then, we came to a kind of a crisis because at the last...
0:26:41 > 0:26:43After having finished three seasons,
0:26:43 > 0:26:45which is 30 hours of television, basically,
0:26:45 > 0:26:50I wasn't sure there was enough to do another ten episodes, you know?
0:26:50 > 0:26:55And I knew that I had taken over the studio and I said, "Look..."
0:26:55 > 0:26:58I came up with, what I thought, was the brilliant idea
0:26:58 > 0:27:00to finish it off with a two-hour movie, you know?
0:27:00 > 0:27:04And I wrote, so, I wrote a conclusion to the whole story
0:27:04 > 0:27:06and they said, "Look, this is too expensive."
0:27:06 > 0:27:08You know. "We can't put this amount of money into two hours."
0:27:08 > 0:27:12You know. If you can't justify... So, they closed it down, yeah.
0:27:12 > 0:27:16But I do think the longform television series,
0:27:16 > 0:27:19it offers absolutely unique opportunities.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23You know what I mean? Not so much to directors as to writers.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25And me being a writer/director,
0:27:25 > 0:27:29you know it obviously offers those opportunities to me, you know.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32You being the writer and particularly a novelist
0:27:32 > 0:27:36in the context of other Irish novelists,
0:27:36 > 0:27:40you would have the likes of McGahern mentioned or John Banville.
0:27:40 > 0:27:45Does it rankle with you that Neil Jordan the novelist
0:27:45 > 0:27:50never gets as big a profile as Neil Jordan the film director?
0:27:50 > 0:27:52No. Well, it's just something I don't fully understand.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56It's... I think it's something to do with contemporary culture.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58You know, the minute I made a movie, you know,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01it was Neil Jordan the film-maker, you know?
0:28:01 > 0:28:03It was never Neil Jordan the novelist, you know?
0:28:03 > 0:28:06Some of the books I've written have been published in many countries
0:28:06 > 0:28:08and have been liked. But, uh...
0:28:08 > 0:28:11you know, people just are surprised that I ever, you know,
0:28:11 > 0:28:14that I ever made, ever wrote novels, you know.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17And, so, you know, people in Spain or in France or New York say,
0:28:17 > 0:28:18"I didn't know you were a writer."
0:28:18 > 0:28:20I said, "Yes, I've been a writer all my life, yeah."
0:28:20 > 0:28:23It's just the way things are. Nothing I can do about it, you know?
0:28:23 > 0:28:26Neil Jordan, it has been a pleasure talking to you.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29- Thank you so much.- OK. Thank you. Thank you very much.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31You done? Is that it?
0:28:31 > 0:28:33- Did you cover all the things? - Yeah.- Oh, good. OK.