0:00:02 > 0:00:04Hello and welcome to The Culture Show.
0:00:04 > 0:00:06This week, we're coming from the great city of Liverpool,
0:00:06 > 0:00:10once dubbed the Venice of the North, where, a little later on,
0:00:10 > 0:00:14I'll be joined by comedian and Liverpudlian Alexei Sayle
0:00:14 > 0:00:17to explore an intriguing new show at the Tate
0:00:17 > 0:00:20on the themes of vitality and mortality.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24But first, here's what else we've got for you in tonight's show.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28This programme contains some strong language.
0:00:28 > 0:00:34Award-winning American author Richard Ford gives us a taste of the long-awaited new novel, Canada.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42Miranda Sawyer is serenaded by musical comic, Tim Minchin.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50And we premier an extract from the BFI's Genius of Hitchcock season.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56We start with the master of horror, William Friedkin,
0:00:56 > 0:01:00who returns to a life of crime for his latest film,
0:01:00 > 0:01:03starring Hollywood hunk turned psychotic cop,
0:01:03 > 0:01:07Matthew McConaughey, in the lead as Killer Joe.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09Mark Kermode went to find out
0:01:09 > 0:01:12if the film lives up to the gritty genius of The French Connection,
0:01:12 > 0:01:16which made Friedkin's name all of 40 years ago.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24It'll come as no surprise to learn I'm a huge fan of William Friedkin,
0:01:24 > 0:01:26director of The French Connection, Cruising
0:01:26 > 0:01:29and a movie which I've been telling everyone for decades
0:01:29 > 0:01:32is the greatest film ever made, The Exorcist.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37If you think that means I unconditionally love
0:01:37 > 0:01:40everything he's done, you'd be wrong.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43One of the things I admire most is his ongoing ability
0:01:43 > 0:01:48to confound, infuriate, surprise and sometimes disappoint me,
0:01:48 > 0:01:51with films like the silly killer-tree yarn, The Guardian.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57And then, in 2006, something happened.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Having turned 70, Friedkin rediscovered his mojo.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04The paranoid thriller, Bug,
0:02:04 > 0:02:07was adapted from the stage play by Tracy Letts.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Agnes, please!
0:02:09 > 0:02:15- Agnes.- Can you see it?- What? - The bug?- Yes.- What is it doing?
0:02:15 > 0:02:19- Feeding.- On what?- My blood. Feeding off my blood.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23- You're saying...- I'm saying it's feeding off my blood. It's a parasite.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27Now he's re-teamed with bug writer Letts to make Killer Joe,
0:02:27 > 0:02:31an uncompromising, jet-black comedy about a family of rednecks
0:02:31 > 0:02:35who hire an assassin to knock off their estranged mother.
0:02:35 > 0:02:42My payment is 25,000 in cash, in advance, no exceptions.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45- 25?- Yes, sir.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49- Thought you said 20.- I was told 20. - 25.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52Is that a problem?
0:02:52 > 0:02:56I asked you ten years ago, and you said, "I don't have interest in doing stage plays,"
0:02:56 > 0:02:59and yet, with Bug, you rediscovered something
0:02:59 > 0:03:03from your earliest, angriest days of film-making.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06What is it that you rediscovered in Tracy Letts's plays?
0:03:06 > 0:03:11He and I both believe that there's good and evil in everyone.
0:03:11 > 0:03:18It's a constant struggle for our better angels and demons to prevail.
0:03:18 > 0:03:23And we both see a lot of human behaviour as absurd.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25Are you going to kill my mama?
0:03:25 > 0:03:30'Central to Killer Joe is a mesmerising performance from rising British star, Juno Temple.'
0:03:30 > 0:03:31I don't know.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35- Why?- I was just curious.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39My mama tried to kill me when I was little.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Tell me about working with Juno Temple. She's done a few features
0:03:43 > 0:03:48but this is the first in which she's held a very central role.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51- Tell me about her. How did you find her?- I didn't know who she was.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56Juno Temple sent me, unsolicited,
0:03:56 > 0:04:00an audition video of herself playing Dottie,
0:04:00 > 0:04:04with her ten-year-old brother reading off camera,
0:04:04 > 0:04:06reading Killer Joe.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10The minute I popped it into my computer and saw her audition,
0:04:10 > 0:04:13I felt she was exactly what I was looking for.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16She was a gift from the movie god.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19She cared more about herself than her little baby.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21She didn't love me like a mama should love a little baby.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24She was happy, because she thought she'd done it,
0:04:24 > 0:04:27and then I couldn't grow into something better than she'd been,
0:04:27 > 0:04:29had ever been.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33She hadn't done it. She didn't send me back to him.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39I've seen every film you've made and they consistently disturb, confound,
0:04:39 > 0:04:42confuse, infuriate - all those things.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46In the case of Killer Joe, there is one particular scene
0:04:46 > 0:04:47which has now become legendary,
0:04:47 > 0:04:51involving a piece of fried chicken, which I thought
0:04:51 > 0:04:56was genuinely one of the most repugnant things I've seen on screen in a long time.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00- Do you want some chicken? We stopped by the K Fried C.- Yes, please.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Sure. Help yourself. It's right here on the stove.
0:05:02 > 0:05:08- Fetch it for him, would you, hon? - Sure. White or dark?- Leg.
0:05:08 > 0:05:09You want a beer?
0:05:09 > 0:05:11Yes, please.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16Would you set that on the table, please?
0:05:16 > 0:05:20Without a spoiler, it's meant to be a humiliation
0:05:20 > 0:05:22and an act of vengeance.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24It's strange. It's weird.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28I swear to you it is not in the film for shock purposes.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33The fact that people are shocked by it, or provoked by it,
0:05:33 > 0:05:35doesn't surprise me.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38I'm never aware that something I've done
0:05:38 > 0:05:41is going to have any effect whatsoever,
0:05:41 > 0:05:44but what I try to do with the films I make
0:05:44 > 0:05:46is at least have them be cathartic
0:05:46 > 0:05:50in nature to the audience, because they are intense.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53This is lovely.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57Who would like to say grace?
0:05:57 > 0:06:01What do you think are the sexual politics of Killer Joe,
0:06:01 > 0:06:04in as much as what it says about the relationship between men and women?
0:06:04 > 0:06:07I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12What do you mean? It says nothing about the sexual politics between men and women.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14To answer your question, it isn't about that.
0:06:14 > 0:06:19It's about those people in that situation, at that time.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21I've been asked,
0:06:21 > 0:06:25- isn't this based on some Greek tragedy that I've never heard of? - Is it?- No!
0:06:25 > 0:06:27MARK LAUGHS
0:06:27 > 0:06:30I think, as close as I can come to answering your question,
0:06:30 > 0:06:33is to say that, in my view,
0:06:33 > 0:06:38the story is about the fact that every little girl
0:06:38 > 0:06:42everywhere in the world wants to be Cinderella,
0:06:42 > 0:06:44IS Cinderella,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47and wants to get out of a horrible relationship
0:06:47 > 0:06:51with a evil stepmother, or parents that don't understand her,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54and she wants to find her Prince Charming
0:06:54 > 0:06:57- to take her away and go and live in the castle.- Yeah.
0:06:57 > 0:07:02And every little boy, at one time or another in his young life,
0:07:02 > 0:07:03wants to be Prince Charming.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07And Dottie is looking for her Prince Charming,
0:07:07 > 0:07:12and he comes along, only he happens to be a hired killer... A homicidal maniac!
0:07:12 > 0:07:14But she finds her Prince Charming.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17HE CONTINUES TO FLICK LIGHTER
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Of course we never discussed the possibility of a retainer.
0:07:26 > 0:07:32Well, Billy, I have to say that, at this point in your career, you are as repugnant and powerful
0:07:32 > 0:07:35as your first... Thank you very much.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39You know how to sweet-talk a guy. You haven't forgotten that.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Thank you. It's always a pleasure.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45Killer Joe is out this week.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47Next, I'll be joined by the comedian Alexei Sayle
0:07:47 > 0:07:50to review a bold new exhibition here at Tate Liverpool,
0:07:50 > 0:07:54which brings together work by three different artists -
0:07:54 > 0:07:57Turner, Monet and the American painter, Cy Twombly -
0:07:57 > 0:08:01the common thread being that each produced some of his most radical work
0:08:01 > 0:08:04during the twilight years of his life.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13They say that with old age comes wisdom.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16But so, too, does decrepitude
0:08:16 > 0:08:19and a growing realisation that time's running out fast.
0:08:19 > 0:08:25It's that bitter-sweet truth that lies at the heart of Tate Liverpool's new exhibition.
0:08:25 > 0:08:31The idea is that by comparing the later works of three highly individual artists,
0:08:31 > 0:08:33certain common preoccupations might emerge.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35Personally, I've got my doubts about the show
0:08:35 > 0:08:39because while we know about the links between
0:08:39 > 0:08:41Turner's visions and Monet's impressionism,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45the presence of Cy Twombly, an American working so much later,
0:08:45 > 0:08:47seems like a little bit of a curve ball,
0:08:47 > 0:08:49but I'm certainly intrigued.
0:08:51 > 0:08:57Joining me to assess the perhaps surprising rewards to be garnered from old age
0:08:57 > 0:09:01is Liverpool local and ex-art school student, Alexei Sayle.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05He's had a long, fruitful career in the arts.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10I want to see if, together, we can uncover some old dogs performing any new tricks.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13So first important decision - stairs or lift?
0:09:13 > 0:09:17I would run up the stairs, but in deference to you, we'll take the lift.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19Not that we're feeling our age.
0:09:19 > 0:09:24Age is just a number... that denotes biological decay.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27THEY CHUCKLE
0:09:27 > 0:09:30So, Alexei, everybody knows you as a comedian,
0:09:30 > 0:09:32but not many people realise that you love looking at art.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36Yeah, I did five years at art school.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39I served five years before the easel.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43I don't have the same visceral response to painting
0:09:43 > 0:09:47that I have to theatre or films.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52Having said that, I've never been in a room with paintings like this before by myself. It's extraordinary.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55I do get a completely visceral shock out of a picture like that.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57Yeah, yeah.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59There's smoke, smog,
0:09:59 > 0:10:01there's mist, there's light.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03I so much think that Turner in his 60s...
0:10:03 > 0:10:06I mean, nobody had seen stuff like this before.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08There was no art like this before.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11It's just such a leap into the unknown.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15How would a Victorian have felt looking at something like this?
0:10:15 > 0:10:19He got absolutely slagged off in the press.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22Ruskin, who's a great supporter of Turner,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25thought that by the time he got to this stage in the career, he had gone mad.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29Yet, painters of subsequent generations coming to this,
0:10:29 > 0:10:32have gone, "Wow, he got there early."
0:10:32 > 0:10:34- Mmm.- He got there early.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38Almost the only person who really got Turner
0:10:38 > 0:10:39was Monet.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43You know, if we move to a Monet...
0:10:45 > 0:10:48..you know, it could be a fragment of a painting by Turner.
0:10:48 > 0:10:54It's funny. You like to think that you'd be the one person who saw the worth of it.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57But I was thinking, when we were looking at that,
0:10:57 > 0:11:01- I'd probably be one of the people slagging it off.- Really?!
0:11:01 > 0:11:03It's crap. It's rubbish.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06- It's great material. - He's gone nuts.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08Monet, compared to Turner, what do you think?
0:11:08 > 0:11:12There's a kind of prettiness, isn't there, about Monet.
0:11:12 > 0:11:17- This is a much more beautiful arrangement of colours...- Mmm.
0:11:17 > 0:11:22..whereas Turner is more visceral in the colours that he uses,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25the pinks and blues that are the trademark.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35So they called this bit of the exhibition Vital Force.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38There's one of Twombly's last pictures. What do you make of it?
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Does it say in the catalogue that this is the Monet shot?
0:11:42 > 0:11:44This is...
0:11:44 > 0:11:47ejaculatory...
0:11:47 > 0:11:50priapic, sensual...
0:11:51 > 0:11:55..expungation of essential...
0:11:55 > 0:11:58essential fluids!
0:11:58 > 0:12:00I read the same catalogue, I think.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03There's this great phrase they've taken from a German psychoanalyst
0:12:03 > 0:12:08called "Torschlusspanik", which apparently means "slamming-of-the-door panic" -
0:12:08 > 0:12:12- in other words, "The door's about to close on your life, and this is what you do."- Yeah.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16When I look at late Monet and late Turner,
0:12:16 > 0:12:20I feel that I'm looking at artists who, as they're getting older,
0:12:20 > 0:12:24have a more and more burning desire to tell US
0:12:24 > 0:12:27what they saw in the world before the lights go out.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31Whereas Twombly, I feel, is almost summoning himself up
0:12:31 > 0:12:33to be alive with the picture.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42And now...we've got dark walls
0:12:42 > 0:12:45and Turner's sun suddenly starts to shine,
0:12:45 > 0:12:49although it is a bit of a melancholy subject, this.
0:12:49 > 0:12:54Do you know about this picture? This is the picture that he painted for the memory
0:12:54 > 0:12:57of his best friend, David Wilkie, who was also a painter.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02Turner, as he gets older, he becomes more and more wedded
0:13:02 > 0:13:07to this idea that everything passes, everyone dies.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10One age gives way to the next age,
0:13:10 > 0:13:13so the age of sail gives way of age of steam.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17David Wilkie dies, my friends are going,
0:13:17 > 0:13:21and he's writing this melancholy poem called The Fallacies Of Hope.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23THEY CHUCKLE
0:13:23 > 0:13:26Miserable git!
0:13:31 > 0:13:34It is a pretty good grand finale.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39Monet nympheas - water lily painting.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41People forgot how long he went on.
0:13:41 > 0:13:47He painted this in 1916, in the middle of the First World War.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49It's a shock when you see those dates, isn't it?
0:13:49 > 0:13:53For me, this is Monet's breakthrough moment, really,
0:13:53 > 0:13:55when he paints these pictures.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59- Really? When he's nearly dead? - When he's nearly dead, yeah.
0:13:59 > 0:14:06All his life, he spent struggling with what he can do with Turner's big idea.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09That light and changing light...
0:14:10 > 0:14:13..is nature, that is what nature is.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18In the water lily paintings, he takes that idea and makes it huge.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21He expands it to the size of a mural
0:14:21 > 0:14:22in a way that Turner never did.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26This is Monet giving Turner to the rest of the 20th century,
0:14:26 > 0:14:29and saying, "Look, it is all about light.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33"Look at this light. Dive into it, bathe in it."
0:14:33 > 0:14:37You can see that's where Twombly comes out of, with gestures and scribbles.
0:14:37 > 0:14:42In that sense, the exhibition does succeed in joining the three figures together.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Will you come with me every time I go to a gallery now?
0:14:45 > 0:14:48Because it's been much richer than...
0:14:48 > 0:14:52When I go round a gallery, I go, "Er, that's quite nice."
0:14:52 > 0:14:55But you've got all this stuff.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57It's a deal.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59THEY LAUGH
0:14:59 > 0:15:03And Turner Monet Twombly continues at Tate Liverpool
0:15:03 > 0:15:05until October 28th.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09Some people don't have to wait till old age to produce their best work.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13After the phenomenal success of Matilda,
0:15:13 > 0:15:16Tim Minchin's career has gone stratospheric.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20Miranda Sawyer talks musicals, mega-stardom and megalomania
0:15:20 > 0:15:22with the man of the moment
0:15:22 > 0:15:26as he prepared to give his one-off Eden session in Cornwall.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33MUSIC: "Jesus Christ Superstar" by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice
0:15:33 > 0:15:35THEY SING ALONG
0:15:40 > 0:15:42# Jesus Christ
0:15:42 > 0:15:44# Superstar... #
0:15:44 > 0:15:46Andrew Lloyd Webber musical.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49It's going to be playing in massive stadiums across the country.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51You're playing Judas amongst a cast
0:15:51 > 0:15:53that includes Chris Moyles and Mel C
0:15:53 > 0:15:57and there's going to be a reality show competition
0:15:57 > 0:15:59to find Jesus Christ Superstar.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02Should be called Seeking Jesus, but it's called Superstar.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05You became famous the hard way.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08After a lot of work, in your 30s, what do you think
0:16:08 > 0:16:13about people who just jump into a role? Which is what will happen.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16If you get the role, off this TV show,
0:16:16 > 0:16:19to sing one of the hardest parts ever written for musical theatre,
0:16:19 > 0:16:22you haven't just stumbled on it!
0:16:22 > 0:16:25You haven't been a lazy layabout for the last 15 years
0:16:25 > 0:16:29who happens to have woken up one morning going,
0:16:29 > 0:16:32"Oh, I can sing high Ds! I might pop on to a telly show!"
0:16:32 > 0:16:36- The person who gets this role will have had their version of hard graft.- Yeah.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39And also, Jesus Christ Superstar is about the idea
0:16:39 > 0:16:43that Jesus became a bit of a popstar in his last months
0:16:43 > 0:16:47and Judas is going, "Dude, you're being an idiot. We're trying to help the poor,
0:16:47 > 0:16:49"and you're letting a prostitute rub expensive oil
0:16:49 > 0:16:54"on your feet?!" So, the idea that we find Jesus on a popstar-type show
0:16:54 > 0:16:56is quite meta
0:16:56 > 0:16:59and quite ironic and I quite like it.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02# ..Jesus Christ, superstar... #
0:17:02 > 0:17:05- Are you ready for another bit of music?- Yep.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07See what we're doing here?
0:17:07 > 0:17:09I think I know where you're going with this.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12MUSIC: "Californication" by Red Hot Chili Peppers
0:17:14 > 0:17:18You are now working with David Duchovny on Californication, is that right?
0:17:18 > 0:17:23- Yeah.- How is that?- It's good. It's one of those weird, lucky things.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26My manager got this script across for this character
0:17:26 > 0:17:32who's meant to be a megalomaniacal coked-up rock star.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Are you finally living the rock'n'roll dream
0:17:35 > 0:17:38- as opposed to the rock'n'roll nerd? - He is the person I mock.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42- Look at the big sign, yay!- Wow!
0:17:50 > 0:17:54I'm surprised you're putting foundation on, given people will be a long way away.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56I put it on because of how pink I get.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59That's really why I started wearing make-up.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04Eyeliner to highlight the eyes because my hands are trapped,
0:18:04 > 0:18:07so it's my soul having expression,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10and foundation because I get so pink.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15So this mitigates beetroot-age. Beetroot-age.
0:18:15 > 0:18:20Given you're spending a week in LA doing Californication,
0:18:20 > 0:18:23and you're zipping back to do an Eden session,
0:18:23 > 0:18:25how does that work?
0:18:25 > 0:18:30I'm super tired now and can't quite believe I can do it.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32But it's fine, it will be fine.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35And more than that, it'll be fantastic fun.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38When is that point, just when you step on?
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Yeah. Literally, in my orchestra show,
0:18:41 > 0:18:43when I come out from underneath the stage on a hydraulic lift,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46sometimes I'd be squatting under the stage,
0:18:46 > 0:18:50going, "What am...what am I doing?!"
0:18:52 > 0:18:55You can feel like the most unfunny,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58unentertaining person in the world and go on and have a cracking show.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00Understanding that and shedding all superstitions
0:19:00 > 0:19:04and all process. I don't have magic socks or magic process,
0:19:04 > 0:19:06or certain warm-up, or anything,
0:19:06 > 0:19:10and it's so fraying, cos you go, "Oh, well, see what happens," you know?
0:19:10 > 0:19:13I hate saying "break a leg". What should I say?
0:19:13 > 0:19:14Good luck, cos I'm free of superstition.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16Of course. OK. Good luck.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20It'll be good fun. Doesn't seem to be raining too hard, either.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22CROWD CHEERS
0:19:22 > 0:19:25# I believe a woman has the right
0:19:25 > 0:19:27# To wear the clothes she likes
0:19:27 > 0:19:31# Without being treated like dirt
0:19:31 > 0:19:34# And I think we men are pathetic
0:19:34 > 0:19:37# How we seem to use aesthetic
0:19:37 > 0:19:40# As a measure of a woman's worth
0:19:40 > 0:19:45# I'm ashamed on behalf of my sex
0:19:45 > 0:19:51# For making women feel like objects... #
0:19:53 > 0:19:56CROWD CHEERS
0:19:58 > 0:20:01# ..Fuck, I love boobs, though
0:20:02 > 0:20:04# I just really love them
0:20:05 > 0:20:08# Fuck, I love boobs, though
0:20:08 > 0:20:10# I just want to rub them
0:20:10 > 0:20:14# They are just so jooby
0:20:14 > 0:20:15# They make me feel groovy
0:20:15 > 0:20:18# I would rather watch boobs than a movie
0:20:18 > 0:20:21# Be-do-be-doo-doo-do-doo
0:20:21 > 0:20:23# I just really love...
0:20:25 > 0:20:27# Yeah, boobs. #
0:20:27 > 0:20:29Thank you so, so much for coming out.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Thank you very much.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35Now to American author Richard Ford,
0:20:35 > 0:20:37critically acclaimed for The Sportswriter.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41He's been talking to James Runcie about his latest novel, Canada -
0:20:41 > 0:20:45a tale of memory and identity that was 20 years in the writing.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52"First, I'll tell about the robbery our parents committed.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56"And then about the murders which happened later.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58"The robbery is the most important part,
0:20:58 > 0:21:03"since it set my and my sister's lives on the courses they eventually followed.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07"Nothing would make complete sense without that being told first."
0:21:09 > 0:21:14Richard Ford is one of the outstanding writers of his generation.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16A Pulitzer prize-winnning author,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19he's visiting Ireland to teach masterclasses in fiction
0:21:19 > 0:21:22to graduate students at Trinity College Dublin.
0:21:22 > 0:21:27And what lucky students, because Ford's short stories and novels
0:21:27 > 0:21:30elegantly capture the mood of postwar America
0:21:30 > 0:21:32and lay bare what he has called
0:21:32 > 0:21:36the normal, applauseless life of us all.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39His latest novel, Canada, is set in 1960
0:21:39 > 0:21:43and tells the story of Dell Parsons, an American teenager suddenly forced
0:21:43 > 0:21:47to leave home and make a new life for himself
0:21:47 > 0:21:50in the lonely sweep of Canada's Great Plains.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52It's a masterful novel that opens,
0:21:52 > 0:21:56intriguingly, with a plot spoiler.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58I thought it was just a garish thing to do,
0:21:58 > 0:22:00to give the whole thing up, basically,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03and say, "I'm going to tell you there are murders
0:22:03 > 0:22:07"that are going to take place, bank robberies, abandonments,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10"all kinds of things, and I will try to interest you
0:22:10 > 0:22:11"in how and why they happen."
0:22:14 > 0:22:17Why I did it, I didn't think it was anything but a good idea.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20I thought, "Give it away...
0:22:20 > 0:22:22"and then see what you can do."
0:22:22 > 0:22:24Tell me about the writing,
0:22:24 > 0:22:27because you've had it on the back burner for 20 years?
0:22:27 > 0:22:29I did.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31But I only had about 20 pages. I write in long hand.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33I'd only written about 20 pages.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36I knew it was going to be a story about a child
0:22:36 > 0:22:39who was made to leave his parents
0:22:39 > 0:22:41and go across the border into Canada, but I didn't know why,
0:22:41 > 0:22:46so I had to invent what his parents could do that would necessitate
0:22:46 > 0:22:48his leaving home and going to live with strangers.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51So I invented the notion, well, rob a bank,
0:22:51 > 0:22:55because having had a larcenist childhood,
0:22:55 > 0:22:59it was always on my screen that maybe the moment will come
0:22:59 > 0:23:02when I could rob a bank, so I got to rob one, virtually.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04I never wanted to murder anybody,
0:23:04 > 0:23:08so that came from some place else, I guess, in my dark little heart.
0:23:08 > 0:23:09Isn't there a sense in the novel
0:23:09 > 0:23:12in which the ordinary can become extraordinary,
0:23:12 > 0:23:15or a moment can change, a life can change,
0:23:15 > 0:23:17the border line between what is seemingly ordinary
0:23:17 > 0:23:20and what is weird is very thin?
0:23:20 > 0:23:23That's what my book is about, to some extent.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26That's what Canada is about, which is to say the border between
0:23:26 > 0:23:29very ordinary life and, in the case of my book,
0:23:29 > 0:23:35about criminal life, a life that really takes you into the abyss,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38that those two things exist almost imperceptively apart.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43"How they passed that night together,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46"the last before they became felons, there's no way to know,
0:23:46 > 0:23:49"since my mother doesn't say in any detail.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52"There's no template for such a night.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54"They were alone in their sweltering cabin,
0:23:54 > 0:23:57"they talked out the subjects they needed to talk about,
0:23:57 > 0:24:00"or had any imagination for.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03"Ordinary people would have waked up panicked at 2am,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06"slick with the sweat, roused the person lying beside them,
0:24:06 > 0:24:08"snapped on the table lamp and shouted,
0:24:08 > 0:24:11" 'No, wait, wait! What is this we're doing?'
0:24:11 > 0:24:13"It's very well to threaten these things, hatch a plan,
0:24:13 > 0:24:17"drive to here and fantasise it'll work out, but it's crazy.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20"We have to go home to our children,
0:24:20 > 0:24:22"figure this out another way.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25"That's the way reasoning people think and speak and act
0:24:25 > 0:24:28"when they have a reflective moment.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31"But it's still not what our parents did."
0:24:31 > 0:24:35You write short stories. This is a long, big book
0:24:35 > 0:24:38and it's told in an incredible amount of detail.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42It almost feels like it's in real time.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46I don't know that that's its best quality, frankly.
0:24:48 > 0:24:53Well, you know, details in novels are words.
0:24:53 > 0:24:58Being dyslexic, one of the ways I learned to read
0:24:58 > 0:25:01was to seize on words, which is what you have to do.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04You have to focus to read successfully
0:25:04 > 0:25:06as someone who's dyslexic.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09You have to close things out of your vision,
0:25:09 > 0:25:13close things out of your mind, so I think I learned to do that,
0:25:13 > 0:25:18to seize on words, because of how I was when I was young.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21And then I began to think that, as Richard Hugo says,
0:25:21 > 0:25:26that when language is just about communication, it's dying.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29So, words have qualities, words have weight,
0:25:29 > 0:25:33syncopation, hue, and I like those things,
0:25:33 > 0:25:38and I think that readers read... the readers that I would like to think I write for...
0:25:38 > 0:25:40read one word at a time.
0:25:40 > 0:25:44If I can give them good words, that I'm pleasing them
0:25:44 > 0:25:48that I'm giving them something for which the time spent is worth it.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53"Once we were out of the hills, there were no landmarks,
0:25:53 > 0:25:56"no mountains or rivers - like the Highwoods
0:25:56 > 0:26:00"or the Bear's Paw or the Missouri - that told you where you were.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02"There were fewer trees.
0:26:02 > 0:26:03"A single low white house
0:26:03 > 0:26:07"with a windbreak and barn, and tractor could be seen at a distance,
0:26:07 > 0:26:09"then later, another one.
0:26:09 > 0:26:13"The course of the sun would be what told you where you were -
0:26:13 > 0:26:17"that and what you personally knew about - a road, a fence line,
0:26:17 > 0:26:20"the regular direction the wind came from.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24"There was no feeling, once the hills disappeared behind us,
0:26:24 > 0:26:26"of a findable middle point
0:26:26 > 0:26:30"from which other points could draw a reference.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33"A person could easily get lost or go crazy here,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37"since the middle was everywhere and everything at once."
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Are you still frightened of writing?
0:26:39 > 0:26:42Did I ever say I was frightened of it?
0:26:42 > 0:26:44You needed fear.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47Well, I fear failure. Absolutely.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49I think that's probably my strongest motive.
0:26:49 > 0:26:53Because when I started writing, when I was 24,
0:26:53 > 0:26:56I had failed at several things at that point
0:26:56 > 0:27:00and I didn't think I could endure another failure.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03I'd been in the Marines and not really succeeded at that.
0:27:03 > 0:27:05I'd been in law school and not succeeded at that.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09So it always works on me, in that way,
0:27:09 > 0:27:12that sense of, "don't make a mess out of this, please!"
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Consequently, for better or worse,
0:27:14 > 0:27:17up to now, I've never started a book I haven't finished.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21I've never written a book that hasn't been published.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25So, I... I guess I work out of the intensity that comes from fear,
0:27:25 > 0:27:26fear of failure.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28It doesn't seem to be shameful.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31I mean, it's just me being honest.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34- Richard, thank you very much indeed. - Thank you, James.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37Well, that's almost it for tonight.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39If you're still looking for more culture,
0:27:39 > 0:27:42try visiting The Space online.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45Next week, we'll have actor Willem Dafoe,
0:27:45 > 0:27:46photographer David Bailey
0:27:46 > 0:27:49and the controversial architect Renzo Piano.
0:27:49 > 0:27:50But now to play us out,
0:27:50 > 0:27:55an exclusive extract from Alfred Hitchcock's debut feature film,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58The Pleasure Garden, which has been lovingly restored by the BFI,
0:27:58 > 0:28:02with music specially composed by Daniel Patrick Cohen -
0:28:02 > 0:28:06just one of the highlights of the BFI's Genius of Hitchcock season
0:28:06 > 0:28:10which runs at London's South Bank until October. Good night.
0:28:59 > 0:29:03Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd