0:00:07 > 0:00:11This is Tate Modern and yes, it's The Culture Show.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16Tonight, we have a living paintbrush,
0:00:16 > 0:00:19a dazzling skyline,
0:00:19 > 0:00:21and a cautionary tale.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29But first, classical musician Evgeny Kissin,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32described by some as the greatest musician alive,
0:00:32 > 0:00:35here in the UK for two rare performances.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38Clemency Burton-Hill met up with the famously private genius
0:00:38 > 0:00:40for an even rarer interview.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Growing up in 1980s' Moscow,
0:00:44 > 0:00:48Evgeny Kissin looks a lot like any other young boy,
0:00:48 > 0:00:50with one big difference.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Evgeny Kissin started playing the piano aged two
0:01:04 > 0:01:07and has been astonishing audiences ever since.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12At six, he was studying at Moscow's music school for gifted children.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16And by 12, he was an international sensation.
0:01:19 > 0:01:25Now aged 41, he's arguably one of the greatest pianists of all time.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Yet, he hasn't always been popular with critics,
0:01:28 > 0:01:32some of whom claim he's robotic and emotionally stunted,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35relying on technical genius alone.
0:01:35 > 0:01:36In other words,
0:01:36 > 0:01:39an archetype of former prodigy cocooned in a bubble of music.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41I think they are wrong.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44Kissin is notoriously shy.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47And he's also very enigmatic, both on and off stage.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51But I think he's so much more than just a technician.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Not only are his musical instincts pretty much unerring,
0:01:54 > 0:01:58but he can also communicate incredibly profound and sophisticated,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01and, often, deeply moving musical ideas.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03He rarely gives interviews though,
0:02:03 > 0:02:05so I'm hoping that this will be the chance
0:02:05 > 0:02:07to get a bit of an insight into his genius.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12Your rise was so meteoric,
0:02:12 > 0:02:15you made your debut at 12 and the whole world was watching.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17How did you deal with that?
0:02:17 > 0:02:21I had always, since childhood,
0:02:21 > 0:02:22loved playing in public.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27That was an unconscious urge
0:02:27 > 0:02:31to share with others the music I loved.
0:02:31 > 0:02:37But I have never in my life strived for fame.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40In my early twenties,
0:02:40 > 0:02:45fame, in fact, was very painful for me.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48I felt almost physical pain
0:02:48 > 0:02:56when strangers approached me on the street.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00It took me years to learn to cope with that.
0:03:00 > 0:03:01As Kissin grew older,
0:03:01 > 0:03:04the relentless cycle of touring seemed to take its toll.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08Some critics suggested his playing was cold and emotionally detached,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11that he was coasting along on his natural technique
0:03:11 > 0:03:13and prodigious musical talent.
0:03:13 > 0:03:18In my early twenties, as I was giving more and more concerts,
0:03:18 > 0:03:24the feeling of routine inevitably crept in.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Something happened which helped me to get rid of it.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30When I was in Cologne playing,
0:03:30 > 0:03:34I had a free hour and I went for a walk.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38I walked along the pedestrian street there
0:03:38 > 0:03:44and heard wonderful playing of one of Beethoven's quartets.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48They had a violin case there on the ground for money.
0:03:48 > 0:03:54Not only were they playing on a very high professional level,
0:03:54 > 0:04:00but they were doing it with such passion,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03with such involvement...
0:04:06 > 0:04:11..that I immediately thought and said to myself...
0:04:14 > 0:04:19"..Shame on you! And you dare sometimes to go on stage..."
0:04:22 > 0:04:24"..and not give all of yourself,
0:04:24 > 0:04:28"because you are not in the mood."
0:04:28 > 0:04:32- Which helped me...- And now, do you feel you always give yourself?
0:04:32 > 0:04:34- Yes, I do.- You're always passionate, every time.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37Every concert is an event for me now.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43There are musicians whose initial approach is cerebral,
0:04:43 > 0:04:47it's a kind of intellectual analysis of what the music is doing.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51Do you feel there's an emotional tension in your playing at all
0:04:51 > 0:04:53between the intellect and instinct?
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Well... I think it has always been there.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01I'm not an intellectual type of musician,
0:05:01 > 0:05:07but one cannot achieve much without brains in life
0:05:07 > 0:05:12and a musician, a musical performer, cannot achieve much
0:05:12 > 0:05:14without brains in music.
0:05:16 > 0:05:22I think that I am a romantic type of personality,
0:05:22 > 0:05:26with all the faults of this type of personality
0:05:26 > 0:05:32and with all the suffering it inevitably brings to one's life.
0:05:32 > 0:05:40And that, inevitably and naturally, manifests itself in my playing.
0:05:55 > 0:06:00It seems like you instinctively respond so deeply to music,
0:06:00 > 0:06:02are there certain composers, more than others,
0:06:02 > 0:06:05to whom you feel a particular profound connection?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08Bach is someone...
0:06:08 > 0:06:14who stands above all, for me.
0:06:14 > 0:06:19And Chopin is the closest one to my heart.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29Of course, I'm sure I always knew it with my heart,
0:06:29 > 0:06:33but only recently I finally realised it with my head.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35It is Frederic Chopin.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42Would it ever be possible to describe or to analyse and put into words
0:06:42 > 0:06:45- why you have that relationship to his music?- Oh, no...
0:06:45 > 0:06:49That's a very personal question and...
0:06:49 > 0:06:52that would need to be...
0:06:52 > 0:06:56- Heard, I mean, when you play Chopin...- No, analysed scientifically.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00But even then, the scientific results or analysis that they might get,
0:07:00 > 0:07:02- what would that tell us? I mean... - Then, they would...
0:07:02 > 0:07:07They might be able to analyse and understand
0:07:07 > 0:07:09why I love the woman I love.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12But I myself don't want to know that.
0:07:16 > 0:07:21APPLAUSE
0:07:22 > 0:07:24From pianos to paintings,
0:07:24 > 0:07:28as we head to the intoxicating world of avant-garde artist Yves Klein,
0:07:28 > 0:07:31whose work is included in a new exhibition here, at Tate Modern.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34Alastair Sooke brushed up for a meeting with the muse and model
0:07:34 > 0:07:39who collaborated with Klein on some of his most controversial action paintings.
0:07:42 > 0:07:44On the evening of 9th March 1960,
0:07:44 > 0:07:48the social elite of Paris made their way to see a new artwork
0:07:48 > 0:07:50by enfant terrible Yves Klein.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53The dress code - formal.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55Attendance - strictly invitation only.
0:07:55 > 0:07:59What they witnessed that night would become an instant sensation.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02Klein was already making waves within the art world
0:08:02 > 0:08:05with his conceptual experiments, his vast monochrome canvases
0:08:05 > 0:08:08and his love of pure colour.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12In particular, a shade he patented as International Klein Blue.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15But this new work was dramatically different.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19Klein was introducing the world to his living brushes.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24The audience gasped as nude models appeared
0:08:24 > 0:08:27and began covering themselves in blue paint,
0:08:27 > 0:08:29with Klein quietly instructing each of them
0:08:29 > 0:08:32to position and press their torso and thighs onto the canvas.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35Klein called these works the Anthropometries,
0:08:35 > 0:08:38and went on to create more than 150 of them.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Klein is one of those avant-garde, post-war artists
0:08:42 > 0:08:44who are now enshrined an art world legend.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48For many people, his Anthropometries were groundbreaking performance art,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51but, for some at least, over the years,
0:08:51 > 0:08:53they've started to look a little bit sexist.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55Whatever you reckon, though,
0:08:55 > 0:08:57there's no doubt that they cemented Klein's reputation
0:08:57 > 0:09:01as the grand provocateur of modern art.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09Elena Palumbo-Mosca lived with Klein in Paris in the late '50s,
0:09:09 > 0:09:11when he was still a little-known artist
0:09:11 > 0:09:15and she was dancing in nightclubs to make ends meet.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17She became Yves' favourite model
0:09:17 > 0:09:19and collaborated on more than 20 Anthropometries.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22I've come to meet her.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27So, Elena, we're inside the Tate's new show, A Bigger Splash,
0:09:27 > 0:09:29and, immediately, your eyes drawn to this footage,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31which is really wonderful,
0:09:31 > 0:09:36of the events known as Anthropometries Of The Blue Era, from 1960.
0:09:36 > 0:09:41- I mean, that's now quite a long time ago.- Over 52 years ago.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43And what was the reaction?
0:09:43 > 0:09:46Because, in 1960, this must have seemed pretty shocking.
0:09:46 > 0:09:47After we finished it,
0:09:47 > 0:09:51there were some very bitter discussions at the gallery.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55People were not very friendly to you, I think, in those days.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58To Yves, they didn't, they were angry by what he was doing?
0:09:58 > 0:10:00They were angry, yes. Some...
0:10:00 > 0:10:01quite a few of them were angry,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04even his own mother was not too pleased,
0:10:04 > 0:10:07because she thought he was destroying art in a way.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10Why do think he asked you to participate in his works,
0:10:10 > 0:10:12in the Anthropometries?
0:10:12 > 0:10:15Well, because we knew each other and we liked each other,
0:10:15 > 0:10:19and he knew that, in a way, I enjoyed also doing things
0:10:19 > 0:10:23that the so-called normal people would criticise.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26So, you liked the provocative side of it?
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Of course, yes.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31- And why was that? - It's the way I am.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35Even now, I'm a rather undignified old lady.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39I mean, what do you feel about this phrase that's attached
0:10:39 > 0:10:42to the models for Yves Klein's work, that's come about?
0:10:42 > 0:10:45I mean, they're known as his living brushes, his living paintbrushes.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47I don't think Yves ever used that word.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50We weren't brushes, we were persons.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55But lots of people have subsequently become almost irritated
0:10:55 > 0:10:58by some of these works that Yves did,
0:10:58 > 0:11:00because they say that they are sexist.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02And he's always sort of there in sort of white gloves,
0:11:02 > 0:11:06and looks extremely dandyish, well-attired but in control.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08And it's as though there's an inequality
0:11:08 > 0:11:11between the men and the women.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16One could perhaps see things in this way,
0:11:16 > 0:11:18but I think it would be wrong,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21because it would be a very superficial judgement.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24I think the white gloves...
0:11:24 > 0:11:28and the...formal dress
0:11:28 > 0:11:30was supposed to mean,
0:11:30 > 0:11:34"Look, it's not important that I use my hands to do it,
0:11:34 > 0:11:37"what is important is what is in my mind."
0:11:37 > 0:11:42And he was able to communicate to us his ideas,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46so that we would be like actresses
0:11:46 > 0:11:50in the hands of a film director, for example.
0:11:50 > 0:11:55Yves, himself, said that his paintings were the ashes of his art.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00So this is the fire.
0:12:00 > 0:12:01THEY LAUGH
0:12:01 > 0:12:05The performance was the fire, the result were the ashes.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10One performance in particular has shaped the way
0:12:10 > 0:12:12that people think about the Anthropometries.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Klein agreed to a re-enactment using hired actresses
0:12:15 > 0:12:18to be part of a documentary film called Mondo Cane,
0:12:18 > 0:12:21by Italian director Gualtiero Jacopetti.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24But when he attended the film's premiere,
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Klein was shocked by what he saw.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29When Yves went to Cannes to see the film
0:12:29 > 0:12:35and he saw what came out of...of his work,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38he was really very, very depressed.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41Where you see Yves looking like a madman
0:12:41 > 0:12:43and some very vulgar girls,
0:12:43 > 0:12:48just rolling themselves with cheap erotic attitudes.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51He was really destroyed by this, because he had hoped
0:12:51 > 0:12:57that Cannes would have been the place where, at last,
0:12:57 > 0:12:59he would have been recognised as a great artist.
0:13:01 > 0:13:06Shortly after seeing the film, Klein suffered his first heart attack.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08Within a month, he was dead.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10He was just 34 years old.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14In his short, but prolific career,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17Yves Klein was never far from controversy.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20He once paraded 1,001 balloons through Paris
0:13:20 > 0:13:23releasing them in front of bemused members of the public.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26Klein was brilliant at creating a sensation,
0:13:26 > 0:13:28but he also did more than that.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31His work challenged the very idea of what art could be
0:13:31 > 0:13:35and, for that, he'll always be remembered. Vive the blue revolution!
0:13:38 > 0:13:41And you can see the exhibition until 1st April next year.
0:13:41 > 0:13:46Next, we take a trip across the Thames to cast an architectural eye over London.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Town planning may not sound very rock and roll,
0:13:49 > 0:13:52but one man is throwing a whole new light on the process.
0:13:52 > 0:13:57Tom Dyckhoff took to the streets to meet the man who's transformed the city skyline.
0:14:01 > 0:14:06The City of London in the early 1980s had a bit of an image problem.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10It was old and fusty, not exactly a sexy place to work.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13But all that was soon to change.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15A Big Bang happened in the City of London today,
0:14:15 > 0:14:18it was the day when old-fashioned practices gave way
0:14:18 > 0:14:21to new ways of working and to the computer.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Big Bang had an explosive effect on London's Square Mile.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31The sudden deregulation of the financial markets in 1986
0:14:31 > 0:14:34saw an influx of big international banks.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37And the once secluded cabal of privately owned British firms
0:14:37 > 0:14:39was smashed almost overnight.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42In with their money came design-busting buildings,
0:14:42 > 0:14:44like Lloyds and the Gherkin,
0:14:44 > 0:14:47which transformed London's skyline,
0:14:47 > 0:14:51sealing its image as a thrusting world-leading financial centre.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54And soon, these would be joined
0:14:54 > 0:14:56by a new generation of soaring skyscrapers.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58The Leadenhall Building, dubbed the Cheesegrater,
0:14:58 > 0:15:01is said to rise 736 feet.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04The Pinnacle, a whopping 944,
0:15:04 > 0:15:07making it the highest building in the City.
0:15:07 > 0:15:09That all this new growth
0:15:09 > 0:15:13has taken place in the dense, mediaeval streets of the Square Mile,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15tightly packed with historic listed buildings,
0:15:15 > 0:15:19is quite remarkable. Pretty much down to one man.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23The puppet master who's directed
0:15:23 > 0:15:26the City's leading role on the world stage
0:15:26 > 0:15:29is Peter Rees, its Chief Planning Officer.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35- Lovely to meet you, Peter. - Hello, Tom.- What is it like to survey your kingdom?
0:15:35 > 0:15:38Oh, well, I wouldn't describe it quite as my kingdom,
0:15:38 > 0:15:41but I have had a 27-year love affair with this place, the City of London.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45It is probably the best boys train set in the world to play with.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49When you began, that was kind of the period when Prince Charles was being,
0:15:49 > 0:15:52his classic period of being outspoken about modern architecture,
0:15:52 > 0:15:54and all those battles were all taking place around here.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56How did that influence?
0:15:56 > 0:15:59The City has always been interested in everybody's points of view.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02But, at the end of the day, there has to be change
0:16:02 > 0:16:05- if the City is going to survive. - That means you must make a lot of enemies.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07I know a lot of your decisions have been quite controversial.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10And you've been quite rude about some of the Heritage lobby,
0:16:10 > 0:16:15- I mean, you called the...- What? - You called English Heritage "Heritage Talibans," or something like that.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18Yes, I should have said Mujahedeen, of course, I was incorrect.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21Um... But, yeah, I can be a bit outspoken.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24I suppose that goes with the territory of being a Welshman.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27- I think I'd like to take a tour. Would you like to show me around? - Let's go and see the City.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36This is one of our latest projects - the Walkie-Talkie.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38You can see the way it curves towards the top
0:16:38 > 0:16:41and it's dished on the front and on the back.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44Do you always need a funny nickname nowadays for a new building in the City?
0:16:44 > 0:16:46The public do expect a building to have a nickname.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50This one originally looked rather like a one piece Swedish telephone from the 1960s.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53And then, that seemed to morph into a walkie-talkie.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56It's definitely unique. I can't think of anything else...
0:16:56 > 0:16:58Oh, yes. It's the only walkie-talkie I know
0:16:58 > 0:17:00that's being constructed at the present.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02Let's have a little sneak preview.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10- Wow, here we are! - Here we are, 20th floor.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13This is what it's all about, isn't it? There is the competition!
0:17:13 > 0:17:17Well, yes, the Shard, on the south side of the river. We don't talk about that.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19That's somewhere else. That's over in the big, wild wood.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22So, how important is it to you for these kind of buildings
0:17:22 > 0:17:23to be accessible to the public?
0:17:23 > 0:17:26Very important. I mean, on the other side of the river,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30we've got the Shard, with its public viewing galleries at the top, £25 a throw.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34In the City, as high again as we are now in this building,
0:17:34 > 0:17:36there will be public viewing galleries,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38three floors of restaurants and bars, and free access.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41That was one of the planning conditions when we gave approval for this building,
0:17:41 > 0:17:44that there should be free public access to the top of the building.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50God, so here is the money shot, in every sense of the word.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53- Isn't it?- That's quite a cluster. - This is a cluster of towers.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56I hear you had a bit of a hand in the shape of the Gherkin.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58At the stage when the Gherkin was designed,
0:17:58 > 0:18:02they came to my office with a building that looked rather similar to that one,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05but it was much fatter and lower.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07And I remember saying in the meeting
0:18:07 > 0:18:10that, "If only you could make it thinner and taller,
0:18:10 > 0:18:14"it'd be more elegant, and I think would work better in planning terms."
0:18:14 > 0:18:17So, I suppose, you could say it was Lord Foster who designed the Gherkin
0:18:17 > 0:18:18and Peter Reeves that squeezed it.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20HE LAUGHS
0:18:20 > 0:18:23And there you have the architect in you coming out as well.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27- Do you find it hard not to micro-manage, get involved in the details...?- It is hard.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29But, at the end of the day, it's the planner's job
0:18:29 > 0:18:32to actually explain why something doesn't work.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34And it's the architect's job to come up with a solution.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36And I try not to cross that boundary.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40- Do you have to grit your teeth sometimes when you see what comes on your desk?- I do.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42I mean, there are times when something is so awful
0:18:42 > 0:18:44that I have to take a hand.
0:18:44 > 0:18:45But the best a planner can do
0:18:45 > 0:18:47is to make mediocrity out of awfulness.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49For excellence, you have to have a committed architect.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51HE CHUCKLES
0:18:57 > 0:18:58- Cheers, Tom.- Yeah.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01- The end of the day in the City. - I was going to say...
0:19:01 > 0:19:03The ties come off and it's time to relax.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07Well, there's more and more of these kind of places in the City for having fun,
0:19:07 > 0:19:09which is, presumably, a key part of your strategy.
0:19:09 > 0:19:10Yes, I mean, in the mid '80s,
0:19:10 > 0:19:12all the pubs closed at eight o'clock in the evening,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15and everybody'd gone home, just back to the suburbs.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18And when people did party, especially on a Thursday night,
0:19:18 > 0:19:20they had to go to the West End to do it.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23It seemed to us sensible that people working in the City,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26working hard during today, should be able to party in the City as well.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29The counterargument is that actually what's been created in the City
0:19:29 > 0:19:32is obviously a playground for the rich.
0:19:32 > 0:19:37Only a certain number of people or a certain type of person really is invited to the City of London.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40The homeless are very absent from the City of London.
0:19:40 > 0:19:45Buskers... Anyone of that kind of background are not really welcomed to the party.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47And, I suppose, you've been amazing
0:19:47 > 0:19:50in creating the appearance of public space,
0:19:50 > 0:19:53but, actually, a lot of this public space is private space.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55So how do you square those two?
0:19:55 > 0:19:57That space is enjoyed by people who come to visit as tourists.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00They come over the Millennium Bridge to visit St Paul's Cathedral,
0:20:00 > 0:20:03they wander off into the little alleyways and pocket parks in the City.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07You don't have to be a signed-up member of the City club
0:20:07 > 0:20:09to come into the City.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12So I don't think there is that exclusivity, it's in people's minds.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16You've had quite an amazing career and you've worked in a place
0:20:16 > 0:20:19which is a part of the country, which is flooded with money
0:20:19 > 0:20:21and it's quite gilded in many ways.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25Do you think that you might have achieved more
0:20:25 > 0:20:28working, I guess, in place that would demand your skills greater,
0:20:28 > 0:20:32a place with less money, or a place with fewer opportunities?
0:20:32 > 0:20:37Aren't those the kind of places that really need a sharp city planner?
0:20:37 > 0:20:41I like to think the important thing is to find a place
0:20:41 > 0:20:42and stick with it.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45Planning is not a quick business.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49I don't have much time for people who go in for a couple of years
0:20:49 > 0:20:51and walk away before you see the results.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54You have to get into the spirit of the place,
0:20:54 > 0:20:56absorb it, fall in love with it.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Then, you're a useful planner.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02Well, Peter, thanks for your time. Good luck. Another 27 years.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03It's been a pleasure, Tom.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07Thanks for coming and sharing the City with me.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10And now, to Danish film director Thomas Vinterberg,
0:21:10 > 0:21:13known for his maverick and brave film-making style.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17His latest project, The Hunt, is no less courageous,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19as it deals with some of the complicated issues
0:21:19 > 0:21:22involved in accusations of child abuse.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24I had the chance to talk to him about the film
0:21:24 > 0:21:26ahead of its release on November 30th.
0:21:38 > 0:21:39GUNSHOT
0:21:57 > 0:21:59Thomas Vinterberg first made his name
0:21:59 > 0:22:03on the international movie scene with Festen (The Celebration),
0:22:03 > 0:22:06a raw account of a hidden legacy of child abuse
0:22:06 > 0:22:08filmed according to the austere rules
0:22:08 > 0:22:11of the Dogme 95 Vow Of Chastity.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17These rules included handheld cameras, no incidental music,
0:22:17 > 0:22:20no superficial action and no director credit.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23All with the aim of purifying film-making
0:22:23 > 0:22:25to concentrate on the tough stories
0:22:25 > 0:22:27that people often don't want to tell.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35Now, Vinterberg has returned to the subject of child abuse
0:22:35 > 0:22:37with Jagten (The Hunt)
0:22:37 > 0:22:39which, in terms of both style and substance,
0:22:39 > 0:22:42offers the flip side of Festen.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45Not only is the film much more traditional in its look,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48but the story concentrates this time not on the awful reality,
0:22:48 > 0:22:51but the false accusation of child abuse.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56The film centres around Lucas, played by Mads Mikkelsen,
0:22:56 > 0:22:58a kindergarten teacher whose world collapses
0:22:58 > 0:23:02when he's wrongly accused by a young child at his place of work.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17- So, Thomas, welcome to The Culture Show.- Thanks.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21You've described Jagten (The Hunt) as the antithesis of Festen.
0:23:21 > 0:23:22What did you mean by that?
0:23:23 > 0:23:28Well, back then in '98, we made a film about a guy
0:23:28 > 0:23:32- who actually suffered from physical assault from his father.- Yes.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34And this time, the case is the opposite.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37He's a guy being accused for something he didn't do.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40Stylistically, as well thematically, the films are very different.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42Festen is made according to the Dogme Manifesto,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45this has a much more traditional look about it.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47Do you look at the Dogme Manifesto as still having any relevance
0:23:47 > 0:23:50or was it actually an elaborate joke?
0:23:50 > 0:23:52Oh, it was never a joke.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55It was arrogant, it was playful,
0:23:55 > 0:23:59it was self-absorbed, it was vain or whatever you can say.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01- But it was never a joke. It was heartfelt.- Yeah.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03We meant it very serious.
0:24:03 > 0:24:07And it was meant to be a riot against the conventions of filming.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10But, hey, Dogme was... It was a fantastic time.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13- But you have to renew yourself. - Yeah.- You have to be on thin ice.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38How did you approach dealing with the very young actor in the film?
0:24:38 > 0:24:41At the centre of it is a very young actor who plays Klara,
0:24:41 > 0:24:43and she's dealing with very difficult subject matter.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46How did you protect her from the edgy elements of that?
0:24:46 > 0:24:50Well, the film itself is slightly a comment
0:24:50 > 0:24:55- on overprotection of children, the victimisation of children.- Yeah.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59So we, we talked to the parents about this
0:24:59 > 0:25:02and, obviously, she is... she's seven years old,
0:25:02 > 0:25:03or she was seven years old at the time.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06So she doesn't understand sexuality, and should not.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08But we told her pretty much everything.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11She needed to know why they all got so angry at her.
0:25:11 > 0:25:15And then, she went to play with her dolls and do her ping-pong.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17And she wasn't really bothered,
0:25:17 > 0:25:20so that was a fine and healthy process.
0:25:37 > 0:25:39You grew up in a commune.
0:25:39 > 0:25:43Tell me about that and what effect that's had on your vision as a film-maker?
0:25:43 > 0:25:48- Well, everyone sees a different film when they see a film.- Yeah.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50And I, the most important thing I see,
0:25:50 > 0:25:55what I'm getting involved with emotionally when I see The Hunt,
0:25:55 > 0:25:56is the loss of innocence.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59And, for me, it's kind of a nostalgic description
0:25:59 > 0:26:02of what happened over my life since the '70s.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05I grew up, as you say, in a commune,
0:26:05 > 0:26:06amongst genitals and happy people.
0:26:06 > 0:26:11And, you know what, back then, a teacher could hug a child
0:26:11 > 0:26:14if she was crying or he was crying.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16And it was no problem.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19And we lost that, we lost some of all this.
0:26:19 > 0:26:24I know there's a good reason, I know that kids are being assaulted.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26But we lost our innocence, I guess, over the years.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28And I feel a little sad about that.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44HE SIGHS
0:26:44 > 0:26:49Did you feel able to make Jagten, having already done Festen?
0:26:49 > 0:26:52Saying, "Look, I have acknowledged the reality of child abuse,
0:26:52 > 0:26:55therefore, I have, you know, I have kind of earned the right
0:26:55 > 0:26:57to look at the other side of the story.
0:26:57 > 0:27:03Yes, I've... I do acknowledge and we all know that this exists.
0:27:03 > 0:27:05I mean, you have a case on BBC
0:27:05 > 0:27:10and there's many cases all over the place of kids actually being abused.
0:27:10 > 0:27:11Yes.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13- But I have made that film.- Yeah.
0:27:13 > 0:27:18And I've being part of this, of throwing light on that in the '90s.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23Now, this new film throws light on another kind of victim.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26- And even another kind of child victim also.- Yeah.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29She's now just suffering another kind of violation
0:27:29 > 0:27:32- from the overprotective society. - Yeah.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36And that, of course, is interesting and very problematic.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38And we have to talk about that.
0:27:38 > 0:27:42- Thomas, thank you very much. - Thank you.
0:27:42 > 0:27:47That's almost all for tonight, but if you want more culture, go to...
0:27:47 > 0:27:51Finally, to play us out, The Culture Show goes Gangnam Style.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54When Chinese dissident artist Ai Weiwei's satirical take
0:27:54 > 0:27:56on the YouTube sensation went online,
0:27:56 > 0:27:58the Chinese Government shut it down.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Last week, British artist Anish Kapoor made his own version
0:28:01 > 0:28:05in support of Ai Weiwei and we've got an exclusive sneak preview.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07Good night.
0:28:07 > 0:28:09MUSIC: Gangnam Style by PSY
0:28:09 > 0:28:15HE MIMES
0:29:09 > 0:29:12Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd